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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 72.957, \"end\": 73.117, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 73.117, \"end\": 73.618, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 73.618, \"end\": 73.738, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 73.738, \"end\": 73.818, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 73.818, \"end\": 73.938, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 73.938, \"end\": 74.498, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 74.498, \"end\": 74.698, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 74.698, \"end\": 74.979, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 74.979, \"end\": 75.219, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 75.219, \"end\": 75.399, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 75.399, \"end\": 75.639, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 75.639, \"end\": 75.659, \"score\": 0.029}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 75.659, \"end\": 75.679, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 75.679, \"end\": 75.799, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 75.799, \"end\": 75.919, \"score\": 0.439}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 75.919, \"end\": 75.96, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 75.96, \"end\": 76.14, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"滾\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 76.14, \"end\": 76.16, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 76.16, \"end\": 76.18, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 76.18, \"end\": 76.28, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 76.28, \"end\": 76.3, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 80.163, \"end\": 81.644, \"text\": \"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 80.163, \"end\": 80.183, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"邀\", \"start\": 80.183, \"end\": 80.203, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 80.203, \"end\": 80.263, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 80.263, \"end\": 80.283, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 80.283, \"end\": 80.303, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 80.303, \"end\": 80.363, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"鄭\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 80.363, \"end\": 80.483, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"耀\", \"start\": 80.483, \"end\": 80.583, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 80.583, \"end\": 80.623, \"score\": 0.492}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 80.623, \"end\": 80.764, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 80.764, \"end\": 80.784, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 80.784, \"end\": 80.924, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 80.924, \"end\": 80.944, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 80.944, \"end\": 81.484, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 81.484, \"end\": 81.604, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 81.604, \"end\": 81.624, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 81.624, \"end\": 81.644, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 109.244, \"end\": 113.249, \"text\": \"二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 109.244, \"end\": 109.544, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 109.544, \"end\": 109.765, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 109.765, \"end\": 109.905, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 109.905, \"end\": 110.005, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 110.005, \"end\": 110.185, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"鄭\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 110.185, \"end\": 110.466, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"耀\", \"start\": 110.466, \"end\": 110.666, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 110.666, \"end\": 110.686, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 110.686, \"end\": 110.706, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"鄭\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 110.706, \"end\": 110.846, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"耀\", \"start\": 110.846, \"end\": 111.126, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 111.126, \"end\": 111.407, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 111.407, \"end\": 111.647, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"鄭\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 111.647, \"end\": 111.667, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"耀\", \"start\": 111.667, \"end\": 111.807, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 111.807, \"end\": 111.827, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 111.827, \"end\": 111.927, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"鄭\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 111.927, \"end\": 112.148, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"耀\", \"start\": 112.148, \"end\": 112.588, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 112.588, \"end\": 112.688, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 112.688, \"end\": 112.828, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"鄭\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 112.828, \"end\": 113.049, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"耀\", \"start\": 113.049, \"end\": 113.169, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 113.169, \"end\": 113.229, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 113.229, \"end\": 113.249, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 128.968, \"end\": 130.008, \"text\": \"部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 128.968, \"end\": 128.988, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 128.988, \"end\": 129.068, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 129.068, \"end\": 129.088, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 129.088, \"end\": 129.108, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 129.108, \"end\": 129.128, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 129.128, \"end\": 129.148, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"校\", \"start\": 129.148, \"end\": 129.168, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 129.168, \"end\": 129.388, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 129.388, \"end\": 129.688, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 129.688, \"end\": 129.708, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 129.708, \"end\": 129.968, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 129.968, \"end\": 129.988, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 129.988, \"end\": 130.008, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 158.158, \"end\": 174.729, \"text\": \"有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲那教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣那我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 158.158, \"end\": 158.298, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 158.298, \"end\": 158.478, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 158.478, \"end\": 158.618, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 158.618, \"end\": 158.779, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 158.779, \"end\": 159.059, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 159.059, \"end\": 159.179, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 159.179, \"end\": 159.299, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"旦\", \"start\": 159.299, \"end\": 159.619, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 159.619, \"end\": 160.079, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 160.079, \"end\": 160.46, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 160.46, \"end\": 160.72, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 160.72, \"end\": 161.32, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 161.32, \"end\": 162.441, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 162.441, \"end\": 162.601, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 162.601, \"end\": 162.761, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 162.761, \"end\": 163.362, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 163.362, \"end\": 163.522, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 163.522, \"end\": 163.622, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 163.622, \"end\": 164.402, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"聲\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 164.402, \"end\": 164.622, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 164.622, \"end\": 165.083, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 165.083, \"end\": 165.243, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 165.243, \"end\": 165.383, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 165.383, \"end\": 165.603, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 165.603, \"end\": 165.783, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 165.783, \"end\": 166.383, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 166.383, \"end\": 166.464, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 166.464, \"end\": 166.884, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 166.884, \"end\": 167.064, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 167.064, \"end\": 167.264, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 167.264, \"end\": 167.484, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 167.484, \"end\": 167.764, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"企\", \"start\": 167.764, \"end\": 168.105, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 168.105, \"end\": 168.225, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 168.225, \"end\": 168.425, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 168.425, \"end\": 169.165, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 169.165, \"end\": 169.365, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 169.365, \"end\": 169.786, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 169.786, \"end\": 169.986, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 169.986, \"end\": 170.686, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 170.686, \"end\": 170.926, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 170.926, \"end\": 171.066, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 171.066, \"end\": 171.327, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 171.327, \"end\": 171.567, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 171.567, \"end\": 172.247, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 172.247, \"end\": 172.527, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 172.527, \"end\": 172.707, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 172.707, \"end\": 173.048, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 173.048, \"end\": 173.268, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 173.268, \"end\": 173.508, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 173.508, \"end\": 174.208, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 174.208, \"end\": 174.469, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 174.469, \"end\": 174.489, \"score\": 0.261}, {\"word\": \"獲\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 174.489, \"end\": 174.569, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 174.569, \"end\": 174.709, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 174.709, \"end\": 174.729, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 176.77, \"end\": 192.406, \"text\": \"那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 176.77, \"end\": 177.09, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 177.09, \"end\": 177.631, \"score\": 0.818}, 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\"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 698.448, \"end\": 698.468, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:03,982\n鄭英耀及農業部部長\n\n2\n00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:37,189\n委員好部長早安我想今天我們的召委安排的主題一個是老校舍一個就是鮮奶的相關的議題那針對老校舍的部分我有看到教育部的報告那看起來你們都有在爭取就是大家關切的預算然後我想校舍老不一定是問題最重要就是安全\n\n3\n00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:53,881\n所以是不是可以針對這個安全防震的評估那給我辦公室一個報告就是你們新的做法補助的部分那另外還有鮮奶的部分我剛聽下來包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的\n\n4\n00:00:54,681 --> 00:01:16,300\n只是現在透過地方政府的不同的實行方式加上不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳本身都有一些它的食材的特質有些地方就是讓大家感覺到不到這個美意甚至造成負擔我想我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中\n\n5\n00:01:20,163 --> 00:01:21,644\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\n\n6\n00:01:49,244 --> 00:01:53,249\n二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n\n7\n00:02:08,968 --> 00:02:10,008\n部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案\n\n8\n00:02:38,158 --> 00:02:54,729\n有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲那教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣那我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案\n\n9\n00:02:56,770 --> 00:03:12,406\n那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師\n\n10\n00:03:14,308 --> 00:03:39,495\n以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案嘉義市調查了可是調查結果是不成立被監察院糾正我想請問教育部你們之後被監察院糾正之後有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇的結果作解嗎部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過\n\n11\n00:03:41,451 --> 00:04:03,931\n是的我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作我想\n\n12\n00:04:04,531 --> 00:04:32,308\n老師如果被霸凌地方政府對這個地方對地方政府的一個處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎是對那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧\n\n13\n00:04:33,598 --> 00:05:01,013\n知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款\n\n14\n00:05:04,375 --> 00:05:08,478\n是的那可不可以請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了\n\n15\n00:05:19,769 --> 00:05:45,909\n跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以跟可以給本辦這個資料那我們的了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰\n\n16\n00:05:52,398 --> 00:05:56,641\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n\n17\n00:06:11,974 --> 00:06:36,096\n其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的\n\n18\n00:06:37,637 --> 00:06:54,205\n左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前\n\n19\n00:06:55,445 --> 00:07:06,660\n幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧\n\n20\n00:07:08,393 --> 00:07:35,891\n我想謝謝委員提醒這確實會後我們會全面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣\n\n21\n00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,103\n教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\n\n22\n00:07:58,415 --> 00:08:24,122\nOK邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市交局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板\n\n23\n00:08:24,902 --> 00:08:48,082\n所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧是的\n\n24\n00:08:49,642 --> 00:09:12,859\n那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了\n\n25\n00:09:13,419 --> 00:09:29,204\n如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制\n\n26\n00:09:31,945 --> 00:09:55,066\n所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛\n\n27\n00:09:56,046 --> 00:10:10,760\n第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職時以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關\n\n28\n00:10:12,113 --> 00:10:31,792\n那這兩個是不是問題?部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權力的一個維護\n\n29\n00:10:35,916 --> 00:10:49,406\n那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二\n\n30\n00:10:54,449 --> 00:11:22,097\n制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點\n\n31\n00:11:26,324 --> 00:11:38,468\n跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會,是不是可以容許我們有2個月的時間?2個月,好,2個月,那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助,好不好?那我就等你2個月的報告了。好,謝謝部長承諾。謝謝委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3400\t3982\t鄭英耀及農業部部長\n15066\t37189\t委員好部長早安我想今天我們的召委安排的主題一個是老校舍一個就是鮮奶的相關的議題那針對老校舍的部分我有看到教育部的報告那看起來你們都有在爭取就是大家關切的預算然後我想校舍老不一定是問題最重要就是安全\n37950\t53881\t所以是不是可以針對這個安全防震的評估那給我辦公室一個報告就是你們新的做法補助的部分那另外還有鮮奶的部分我剛聽下來包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的\n54681\t76300\t只是現在透過地方政府的不同的實行方式加上不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳本身都有一些它的食材的特質有些地方就是讓大家感覺到不到這個美意甚至造成負擔我想我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中\n80163\t81644\t二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\n109244\t113249\t二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n128968\t130008\t部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案\n158158\t174729\t有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲那教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣那我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案\n176770\t192406\t那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師\n194308\t219495\t以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案嘉義市調查了可是調查結果是不成立被監察院糾正我想請問教育部你們之後被監察院糾正之後有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇的結果作解嗎部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過\n221451\t243931\t是的 我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作 我想\n244531\t272308\t老師如果被霸凌地方政府對這個地方對地方政府的一個處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎是對那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧\n273598\t301013\t知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款\n304375\t308478\t是的那可不可以請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了\n319769\t345909\t跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以跟可以給本辦這個資料那我們的了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰\n352398\t356641\t二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n371974\t396096\t其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的\n397637\t414205\t左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前\n415445\t426660\t幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧\n428393\t455891\t我想謝謝委員提醒這確實會後我們會全面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣\n459160\t462103\t教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\n478415\t504122\tOK 邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市交局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板\n504902\t528082\t所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧是的\n529642\t552859\t那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了\n553419\t569204\t如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制\n571945\t595066\t所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛\n596046\t610760\t第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職時以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關\n612113\t631792\t那這兩個是不是問題?部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權力的一個維護\n635916\t649406\t那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二\n654449\t682097\t制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點\n686324\t698468\t跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會,是不是可以容許我們有2個月的時間?2個月,好,2個月,那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助,好不好?那我就等你2個月的報告了。好,謝謝部長承諾。謝謝委員。\n","txt":"鄭英耀及農業部部長\n委員好部長早安我想今天我們的召委安排的主題一個是老校舍一個就是鮮奶的相關的議題那針對老校舍的部分我有看到教育部的報告那看起來你們都有在爭取就是大家關切的預算然後我想校舍老不一定是問題最重要就是安全\n所以是不是可以針對這個安全防震的評估那給我辦公室一個報告就是你們新的做法補助的部分那另外還有鮮奶的部分我剛聽下來包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的\n只是現在透過地方政府的不同的實行方式加上不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳本身都有一些它的食材的特質有些地方就是讓大家感覺到不到這個美意甚至造成負擔我想我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\n二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案\n有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲那教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣那我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案\n那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師\n以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案嘉義市調查了可是調查結果是不成立被監察院糾正我想請問教育部你們之後被監察院糾正之後有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇的結果作解嗎部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過\n是的 我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作 我想\n老師如果被霸凌地方政府對這個地方對地方政府的一個處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎是對那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧\n知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款\n是的那可不可以請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了\n跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以跟可以給本辦這個資料那我們的了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的\n左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前\n幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧\n我想謝謝委員提醒這確實會後我們會全面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣\n教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\nOK 邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市交局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板\n所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧是的\n那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了\n如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制\n所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛\n第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職時以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關\n那這兩個是不是問題?部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權力的一個維護\n那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二\n制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點\n跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會,是不是可以容許我們有2個月的時間?2個月,好,2個月,那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助,好不好?那我就等你2個月的報告了。好,謝謝部長承諾。謝謝委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.400 --> 00:03.982\n鄭英耀及農業部部長\n\n00:15.066 --> 00:37.189\n委員好部長早安我想今天我們的召委安排的主題一個是老校舍一個就是鮮奶的相關的議題那針對老校舍的部分我有看到教育部的報告那看起來你們都有在爭取就是大家關切的預算然後我想校舍老不一定是問題最重要就是安全\n\n00:37.950 --> 00:53.881\n所以是不是可以針對這個安全防震的評估那給我辦公室一個報告就是你們新的做法補助的部分那另外還有鮮奶的部分我剛聽下來包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的\n\n00:54.681 --> 01:16.300\n只是現在透過地方政府的不同的實行方式加上不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳本身都有一些它的食材的特質有些地方就是讓大家感覺到不到這個美意甚至造成負擔我想我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中\n\n01:20.163 --> 01:21.644\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\n\n01:49.244 --> 01:53.249\n二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n\n02:08.968 --> 02:10.008\n部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案\n\n02:38.158 --> 02:54.729\n有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲那教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣那我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案\n\n02:56.770 --> 03:12.406\n那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師\n\n03:14.308 --> 03:39.495\n以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案嘉義市調查了可是調查結果是不成立被監察院糾正我想請問教育部你們之後被監察院糾正之後有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇的結果作解嗎部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過\n\n03:41.451 --> 04:03.931\n是的我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作我想\n\n04:04.531 --> 04:32.308\n老師如果被霸凌地方政府對這個地方對地方政府的一個處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎是對那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧\n\n04:33.598 --> 05:01.013\n知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款\n\n05:04.375 --> 05:08.478\n是的那可不可以請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了\n\n05:19.769 --> 05:45.909\n跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以跟可以給本辦這個資料那我們的了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰\n\n05:52.398 --> 05:56.641\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長\n\n06:11.974 --> 06:36.096\n其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的\n\n06:37.637 --> 06:54.205\n左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前\n\n06:55.445 --> 07:06.660\n幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧\n\n07:08.393 --> 07:35.891\n我想謝謝委員提醒這確實會後我們會全面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣\n\n07:39.160 --> 07:42.103\n教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席\n\n07:58.415 --> 08:24.122\nOK邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市交局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板\n\n08:24.902 --> 08:48.082\n所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧是的\n\n08:49.642 --> 09:12.859\n那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了\n\n09:13.419 --> 09:29.204\n如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制\n\n09:31.945 --> 09:55.066\n所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛\n\n09:56.046 --> 10:10.760\n第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職時以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關\n\n10:12.113 --> 10:31.792\n那這兩個是不是問題?部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權力的一個維護\n\n10:35.916 --> 10:49.406\n那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二\n\n10:54.449 --> 11:22.097\n制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點\n\n11:26.324 --> 11:38.468\n跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會,是不是可以容許我們有2個月的時間?2個月,好,2個月,那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助,好不好?那我就等你2個月的報告了。好,謝謝部長承諾。謝謝委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.4,"end":3.982,"text":"鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":15.066,"end":37.189,"text":"委員好部長早安我想今天我們的召委安排的主題一個是老校舍一個就是鮮奶的相關的議題那針對老校舍的部分我有看到教育部的報告那看起來你們都有在爭取就是大家關切的預算然後我想校舍老不一定是問題最重要就是安全"},{"start":37.95,"end":53.881,"text":"所以是不是可以針對這個安全防震的評估那給我辦公室一個報告就是你們新的做法補助的部分那另外還有鮮奶的部分我剛聽下來包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的"},{"start":54.681,"end":76.3,"text":"只是現在透過地方政府的不同的實行方式加上不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳本身都有一些它的食材的特質有些地方就是讓大家感覺到不到這個美意甚至造成負擔我想我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中"},{"start":80.163,"end":81.644,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":109.244,"end":113.249,"text":"二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":128.968,"end":130.008,"text":"部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案"},{"start":158.158,"end":174.729,"text":"有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲那教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣那我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案"},{"start":176.77,"end":192.406,"text":"那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師"},{"start":194.308,"end":219.495,"text":"以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案嘉義市調查了可是調查結果是不成立被監察院糾正我想請問教育部你們之後被監察院糾正之後有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇的結果作解嗎部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過"},{"start":221.451,"end":243.931,"text":"是的 我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作 我想"},{"start":244.531,"end":272.308,"text":"老師如果被霸凌地方政府對這個地方對地方政府的一個處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎是對那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧"},{"start":273.598,"end":301.013,"text":"知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款"},{"start":304.375,"end":308.478,"text":"是的那可不可以請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了"},{"start":319.769,"end":345.909,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以跟可以給本辦這個資料那我們的了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰"},{"start":352.398,"end":356.641,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":371.974,"end":396.096,"text":"其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的"},{"start":397.637,"end":414.205,"text":"左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前"},{"start":415.445,"end":426.66,"text":"幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧"},{"start":428.393,"end":455.891,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒這確實會後我們會全面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣"},{"start":459.16,"end":462.103,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":478.415,"end":504.122,"text":"OK 邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市交局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板"},{"start":504.902,"end":528.082,"text":"所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧是的"},{"start":529.642,"end":552.859,"text":"那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了"},{"start":553.419,"end":569.204,"text":"如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制"},{"start":571.945,"end":595.066,"text":"所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛"},{"start":596.046,"end":610.76,"text":"第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職時以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關"},{"start":612.113,"end":631.792,"text":"那這兩個是不是問題?部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權力的一個維護"},{"start":635.916,"end":649.406,"text":"那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二"},{"start":654.449,"end":682.097,"text":"制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點"},{"start":686.324,"end":698.468,"text":"跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會,是不是可以容許我們有2個月的時間?2個月,好,2個月,那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助,好不好?那我就等你2個月的報告了。好,謝謝部長承諾。謝謝委員。"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:31:55 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10:43:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155116,"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時31分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長早安。今天召委安排的主題，一個是老校舍，一個就是鮮奶的相關議題，針對老校舍的部分，我有看到教育部的報告，看起來你們都有在爭取大家關切的預算，我想校舍老不一定是問題，最重要就是安全，所以是不是可以針對安全、防震的評估給我辦公室一個報告？就是你們新的作法，關於補助的部分。","另外還有鮮奶的部分，我剛剛聽下來，包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的，只是現在透過地方政府不同的實行方式，加上不管是鮮奶還是保久乳，本身都有一些食材的特質，有些地方讓大家感覺不到美意，甚至造成負擔。","我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔？在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中，是不是也能夠在一個月之內，如果你們還沒有大規模改變的話，如何不要造成老師過多的負擔，也給本辦公室一個報告好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["范委員雲：可以吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["范委員雲：今天我還有一個相關的問題就是基層教師，為什麼當老師的人越來越少？聯合報的報導已經讓我們看到臺北市有461個缺額，甄選後還有185個缺額沒有招到老師，之前在教師節的時候我也跟幾個教師工會一起開記者會，我整理了教師荒的五大原因，我就不重複了。","跟今天相關的是，如果鮮奶在發送的時候廠商只能送到某地，還需要老師來發放的話，其實這樣就會導致行政過勞，原本校園中就已經有剛剛講到不管行政大逃亡或是老師過勞，這些都是原因。但是我今天想針對的是另外一個比較少人關注的校園職場霸凌，希望跟教育部做更仔細的討論，部長應該可以了解校園中的職場霸凌很難成案，有一個原因是一旦申訴了，就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲，教師不是一個容易轉職的行業，因為跟中小企業不大一樣。","我辦公室整理了4件，我們都有直接或間接獲報的陳情案，我認為這只是冰山的一角，因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師，這4個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的，還有學校有法源依據的，還有2案是調查中，其中一個是師對師，3案是校長對老師。以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案為例，嘉義市調查了，可是調查結果是不成立，被監察院糾正，我想請問教育部，你們被監察院糾正之後，有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的，讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇結果作結嗎？部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，我想這個是屬於職場霸凌，我想有關涉及到校長對老師的霸凌，地方政府就會直接成立委員會來做調查，然後就教育部來講，我們當然也會直接跟地方縣市教育局、縣市政府來做一些合作，我想老師如果被霸凌，對地方政府的處置不滿意的話，我想他也可以直接跟上級機關，直接跟教育部再來做這樣的投訴、申訴等等。"],["范委員雲：所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府教育局的上級。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：那部長知道校園也要適用我們上一屆通過、我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法，這個部長知道吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法。那跟部長講一下，其實校園的職業安全衛生法，第一條就有講其他機關也適用，那第四條也有講到學校，就是本法適用於各業，所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款。部長知道這件事情嗎？雇主如果沒有善盡責任，會被處以罰款。"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["范委員雲：是的。那可不可以請問部長，到目前為止，有哪個單位被罰了嗎？部長知不知道？所有校園職場有沒有哪個雇主被罰了？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們目前手上是沒有更詳細的這些資料。"],["范委員雲：應該是沒有啦！如果你有查到有任何一個雇主被罰了，那可以給本辦這個資料，我們的了解是並沒有。那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個雇主被罰？我們剛剛講到好多成案了，對不對？還有被監察院糾正的，為什麼沒有被罰，您知道嗎？沒有雇主被罰。部長應該不知道，其實就是我們現在……因為依照職安法，精神、壓力這些就是處新臺幣三萬元到三十萬元，依照不同的情形，那所以沒有人被罰……其實事實上沒有被開罰，就是目前我們相關的辦法其實都沒有寫得很清楚，就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園職場的申訴跟相關仔細的規定。我們把所有的師對師、校長對老師都拿出來檢視，我們以各校……這還是比較好的，有些學校有訂出來，我們剛剛看到那4個陳情案，有些學校連訂都沒有訂，網頁都找不到，以這2個有訂的為例，左邊是臺北市某國小的申訴，流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限；右邊是花蓮縣某國中，甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定，所以這個職安法在校園中，目前幾乎很多地方是空白的。那這個是學校部分，當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有，連規定都沒有的話，教育部應該監督吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，這個確實，會後我們會全面來檢視，然後提醒各地方政府。"],["范委員雲：這只是其中的一層，學校裡面有沒有相關的規定。那我們看縣市立高中，縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴，那縣市也會出現行政不周，就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的，如果縣市出現行政不周，教育部是不是有權接手調查？請問部長，邏輯上是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部有這一個監督的角色，他當然也應該可以……只要有投訴，我們當然可以啟動調查。另外，在職場裡面老師受到這一些權力的受害，他當然也可以直接跟勞動部……"],["范委員雲：OK，邏輯上部長講得很清楚，可是現實上，你看南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防治作業完全沒有處理，沒有成立調查小組，這件事情怎麼辦？還有由誰啟動調查？這部分也是地方的法規中就訂得很模糊了。那新北市教育局還沒有相關規定，網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板，所以只有模板，沒有針對校園的部分做處理，這也是目前疏漏的部分。再跟部長講一下，國教署應該要做得最好吧！國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署？國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話，就直接應該到國教署，部長同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["范委員雲：那你看看這裡面的相關規定，如果國教署的調查中出現瑕疵，現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理。如果申訴不服國教署的調查決議，完全沒有提供救濟管道，究竟是要找行政法院呢？還是教育部就直接可以幫忙救濟了？如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的，那我想你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了。教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處雇主的機制，所以部長，這樣聽起來似乎教育部好像沒有把校園職場安全當成是一個重要的工作，部長有沒有同意到目前為止，職安法修過之後，你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一，你不是雇主唯一，因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署，國教署也是教育部的一部分，第一個，目前各級機關沒有訂定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程；第二個，雇主失職的時候，以嘉義市政府為例，如果監察院沒有跳下來，教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關，那這兩個是不是問題？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想行政上的一些疏漏、督導不周，這我們會深切的來改善。另外，我想包含老師的權益受損，我們也會適當的透過行政管道，讓老師知道能夠尋求勞動部以取得權益的維護。"],["范委員雲：所以相關的申訴機制，譬如說以嘉義市為例，嘉義市教育局調查不周的時候，就應該要有一個後續的救濟跟懲處機制，所以我請部長……謝謝您剛剛的承諾，完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程；二、制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的究責機制。對我們的年輕世代來講，如果沒有良好的職場環境，他用腳走路、選擇離開，這是我們整個教育界的損失，好不好？我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中，把心力放在教育我們的下一代，部長多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢？這兩點。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，因為涉及到跨部會，是不是可以容許我們有兩個月的時間？"],["范委員雲：兩個月？好，你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助，好不好？那我就等你兩個月的報告了。"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長承諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲召委。那我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時43分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席：接下來我們繼續開會。","有請陳秀寳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}}