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535.331, \"end\": 535.471, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 535.471, \"end\": 535.491, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 535.491, \"end\": 535.552, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 535.552, \"end\": 535.672, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 535.672, \"end\": 535.732, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 535.732, \"end\": 535.752, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,223 --> 00:00:07,788\n報告主席我想請劉主委請國會劉主委\n\n2\n00:00:12,988 --> 00:00:24,374\n主委早安我就直接進入主題因為今天其實有很多委員大家都發言大家的問題其實都關心著國家未來的發展依據國發會過去的推估2025年65歲以上的長者將會佔總人口數的20%正式成為超高齡社會因此國發會\n\n3\n00:00:39,381 --> 00:00:51,128\n我就是一兩年一度的人口推估獲得各方的重視啊剛才我們的楊委員有問啊但是這個發布的日期喔一再的延後到底是為什麼呢\n\n4\n00:00:52,233 --> 00:01:03,756\n因為我希望更負責任的來報告這個數字所以我們進行了多次的內部的會議包括陳時中政務委員我們上禮拜也開了一個跨部會的會議我們16號我們會進入國家發展委員會由各部會首長討論以後我們就會公告因為我們希望我們帶著一些方案跟做法來面對\n\n5\n00:01:15,459 --> 00:01:42,554\n這就是本席想要在你們開這個會之前也提醒一下主委我抱歉是10月17號的那個國家發展委員會禮拜四那我們國家裡面的這個經濟護長為65歲的這另外一個問題65歲以上的戶數就是高齡家庭的增加現在有半數出現入不敷出的情況就是賺的比花的少高齡家庭的第一位分主\n\n6\n00:01:43,234 --> 00:01:51,742\n一百一十六萬戶裡面這是佔了這個高齡家庭有49%那該組可支配的所得只有35萬左右35.62那他的消費支出是39萬點34\n\n7\n00:02:00,450 --> 00:02:17,981\n就是39.34元就是每年他要短差將近4萬元3.78萬元那尤其是高齡社會他可能會面臨的突如其來的包括生病啊等等一些支出那所以主計總署有一個高齡家庭的這個CPI指數調查說高齡家庭面臨CPI的漲幅高於其他全體的家庭所以本席建議啊國發會應該把這個問題\n\n8\n00:02:29,528 --> 00:02:43,693\n反映到行政院院會包括就是我想這個問題包括長照上一次那個主委去我辦公室的時候我也有跟主委建議說引法長照機構也更加應該積極的去建構\n\n9\n00:02:46,514 --> 00:03:11,379\n那接下來我想要問一下就是主委之前在講的有關於AI技術等等那全世界現況顯示為了對抗暖化跟這個高碳排已經這個而且迎來這個AI的高用電使用核電已經是不可擋的趨勢而台灣呢主委是否認同我們核電機組的年限應該儘速的修法延長呢\n\n10\n00:03:13,763 --> 00:03:34,001\n這個目前以我們現在只能這個店基本上因為本身不是國發會主政的但是就我瞭解我想聽聽你的意見國家發展畢竟跟你的這個業務執掌息息相關就我瞭解目前因為沒有任何法令的變動所以核電廠一定會在明年關掉就是在你國發會的這個立場你會不會主張應該要延長呢\n\n11\n00:03:38,626 --> 00:03:58,874\n我們目前以國安會的立場我們現在只是從永續的角度發展多元利能因為現在廠家需要R100那他需要綠能那我們希望幫忙廠家找到更多的綠能所以目前我們也協助經濟部在發展地熱或者是氫能源等等的是這些其實都應該並行啊\n\n12\n00:04:00,615 --> 00:04:05,859\n所以上週像上週電價審議委員會決議就是說這個產業用電要漲12.5%那原本有很多AI的巨頭都考慮來臺灣設基地更不用說我們本來的這個護國神山台積電用電量就幾乎是全臺灣的10%了那請問主委就是這個電價調漲之後你原本破壞的這個AI產業架構有沒有什麼影響\n\n13\n00:04:27,638 --> 00:04:51,833\n目前就我了解我們評估下來並沒有太大的影響沒有太大的影響?是的怎麼會?你可以解釋一下嗎?我跟委員報告一下現在像以新加坡來講你要去設一個DataCenter要用百分之百的綠電那那個金額都是比我們現在的用電量還要更高那所以它其實在其他國家裡面我們目前還是有GBAD的U4\n\n14\n00:04:53,752 --> 00:05:10,143\n我完全不能理解說因為據本席理解說這個建制高速運算主機包括這個超級電腦它算力是很重要的但是它是一個吃電的巨獸根據112年度全國電力資源供需報告推過AI科技的用電需求是至117年要增加20萬瓦200萬瓦\n\n15\n00:05:22,492 --> 00:05:45,776\n那這個成長是相較於1、2年是8倍所以臺灣的電力發電結構不需要改變就能夠支應這是依據什麼樣道理說你可以支應經濟部次長在這裡也許他可以做我就要問你經濟部我到時候再問經濟部OK我就不曉得說主委你是不是認同說我們國家的這個發電結構應該要改變呢\n\n16\n00:05:49,885 --> 00:06:00,999\n對我來講第一個我看的是電夠不夠所以其實我跟郭部長還有我跟台電董事長我也開過會那我們都一再的要求他們去除了電不夠之外呢電目前呢\n\n17\n00:06:04,984 --> 00:06:16,409\n明顯顯示說到時候這個核三機組退役之後明顯會有一個用電缺口之外根據台電最新的數據每度電平均發電成本是3.06塊那核電是全部裡面最低的每度電只1.16塊那如果假設假設假設就是最高的5至6塊包括你常常\n\n18\n00:06:33,496 --> 00:06:38,479\n他在旁邊你就知道他常常還要跟民間收電欸你知道民間收電要多少錢嗎?10元、8元都在收那所以我們國家一直在撥補到目前為止已經撥補了4千億了明年還要再撥補1千億所以這樣加起來5千億欸國發會主任你自己想一想這對國家發展是有利的嗎?所以我們再進一步發展多元藝能\n\n19\n00:07:00,230 --> 00:07:24,536\n國際上重啟核能已經是勢不可擋的趨勢包括日本的新任首相他也表示說不會放棄核電韓國的那個他也發表了去核電的政策那核能發電量已經佔他全國發電量的30%了所以我想要知道的是包括美國包括瑞士大家都在\n\n20\n00:07:25,805 --> 00:07:37,401\n重啟核能這是一個潮流所以我可以再請教一下主委說你到底覺得說如果你要迎來這個AI的高用電實用核電是不是不可擋的趨勢呢?\n\n21\n00:07:39,494 --> 00:08:00,409\n現在最主要還是一樣他電夠不夠的問題他電明顯就不夠嘛你們不能夠蒙蔽自己的眼睛說我們應該夠你怎麼算會夠呢你綠能我本席沒有反對綠能但是你綠能的這個發展你自己看他的數據就知道他根本跟不上來嘛\n\n22\n00:08:02,065 --> 00:08:04,568\n國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n\n23\n00:08:21,268 --> 00:08:46,601\n員警的部會那經濟部長也曾回答過我,郭部長就他也回答過我說他會考慮延長核電廠的使用年限而且這個是國發會的使命欸這句話不是沒有道理這重任是要放在你身上請主委要把他扛起來好不好我們全體的國民都可以做你的後盾但是主要是你要先願意扛起來\n\n24\n00:08:47,441 --> 00:08:55,752\n因為法律的規定喔,能源政策是在經濟部能源設置的但是你可以有主張啊!不代表你不能有主張嘛!謝謝張院議員時間掌握得非常好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6223\t7788\t報告主席我想請劉主委請國會劉主委\n12988\t24374\t主委早安我就直接進入主題因為今天其實有很多委員大家都發言大家的問題其實都關心著國家未來的發展依據國發會過去的推估2025年65歲以上的長者將會佔總人口數的20%正式成為超高齡社會因此國發會\n39381\t51128\t我就是一兩年一度的人口推估獲得各方的重視啊剛才我們的楊委員有問啊但是這個發布的日期喔一再的延後到底是為什麼呢\n52233\t63756\t因為我希望更負責任的來報告這個數字所以我們進行了多次的內部的會議包括陳時中政務委員我們上禮拜也開了一個跨部會的會議我們16號我們會進入國家發展委員會由各部會首長討論以後我們就會公告因為我們希望我們帶著一些方案跟做法來面對\n75459\t102554\t這就是本席想要在你們開這個會之前也提醒一下主委我抱歉是10月17號的那個國家發展委員會禮拜四那我們國家裡面的這個經濟護長為65歲的這另外一個問題65歲以上的戶數就是高齡家庭的增加現在有半數出現入不敷出的情況就是賺的比花的少高齡家庭的第一位分主\n103234\t111742\t一百一十六萬戶裡面這是佔了這個高齡家庭有49%那該組可支配的所得只有35萬左右35.62那他的消費支出是39萬點34\n120450\t137981\t就是39.34元就是每年他要短差將近4萬元3.78萬元那尤其是高齡社會他可能會面臨的突如其來的包括生病啊等等一些支出那所以主計總署有一個高齡家庭的這個CPI指數調查說高齡家庭面臨CPI的漲幅高於其他全體的家庭所以本席建議啊國發會應該把這個問題\n149528\t163693\t反映到行政院院會包括就是我想這個問題包括長照上一次那個主委去我辦公室的時候我也有跟主委建議說引法長照機構也更加應該積極的去建構\n166514\t191379\t那接下來我想要問一下就是主委之前在講的有關於AI技術等等那全世界現況顯示為了對抗暖化跟這個高碳排已經這個而且迎來這個AI的高用電使用核電已經是不可擋的趨勢而台灣呢主委是否認同我們核電機組的年限應該儘速的修法延長呢\n193763\t214001\t這個目前以我們現在只能這個店基本上因為本身不是國發會主政的但是就我瞭解我想聽聽你的意見國家發展畢竟跟你的這個業務執掌息息相關就我瞭解目前因為沒有任何法令的變動所以核電廠一定會在明年關掉就是在你國發會的這個立場你會不會主張應該要延長呢\n218626\t238874\t我們目前以國安會的立場我們現在只是從永續的角度發展多元利能因為現在廠家需要R100那他需要綠能那我們希望幫忙廠家找到更多的綠能所以目前我們也協助經濟部在發展地熱或者是氫能源等等的是這些其實都應該並行啊\n240615\t245859\t所以上週像上週電價審議委員會決議就是說這個產業用電要漲12.5%那原本有很多AI的巨頭都考慮來臺灣設基地更不用說我們本來的這個護國神山台積電用電量就幾乎是全臺灣的10%了那請問主委就是這個電價調漲之後你原本破壞的這個AI產業架構有沒有什麼影響\n267638\t291833\t目前就我了解我們評估下來並沒有太大的影響沒有太大的影響?是的怎麼會?你可以解釋一下嗎?我跟委員報告一下現在像以新加坡來講你要去設一個Data Center要用百分之百的綠電那那個金額都是比我們現在的用電量還要更高那所以它其實在其他國家裡面我們目前還是有GBAD的U4\n293752\t310143\t我完全不能理解說因為據本席理解說這個建制高速運算主機包括這個超級電腦它算力是很重要的但是它是一個吃電的巨獸根據112年度全國電力資源供需報告推過AI科技的用電需求是至117年要增加20萬瓦200萬瓦\n322492\t345776\t那這個成長是相較於1、2年是8倍所以臺灣的電力發電結構不需要改變就能夠支應這是依據什麼樣道理說你可以支應經濟部次長在這裡也許他可以做我就要問你經濟部我到時候再問經濟部OK我就不曉得說主委你是不是認同說我們國家的這個發電結構應該要改變呢\n349885\t360999\t對我來講第一個我看的是電夠不夠所以其實我跟郭部長還有我跟台電董事長我也開過會那我們都一再的要求他們去除了電不夠之外呢電目前呢\n364984\t376409\t明顯顯示說到時候這個核三機組退役之後明顯會有一個用電缺口之外根據台電最新的數據每度電平均發電成本是3.06塊那核電是全部裡面最低的每度電只1.16塊那如果假設假設假設就是最高的5至6塊包括你常常\n393496\t398479\t他在旁邊你就知道他常常還要跟民間收電欸你知道民間收電要多少錢嗎?10元、8元都在收那所以我們國家一直在撥補到目前為止已經撥補了4千億了明年還要再撥補1千億所以這樣加起來5千億欸國發會主任你自己想一想這對國家發展是有利的嗎?所以我們再進一步發展多元藝能\n420230\t444536\t國際上重啟核能已經是勢不可擋的趨勢包括日本的新任首相他也表示說不會放棄核電韓國的那個他也發表了去核電的政策那核能發電量已經佔他全國發電量的30%了所以我想要知道的是包括美國包括瑞士大家都在\n445805\t457401\t重啟核能這是一個潮流所以我可以再請教一下主委說你到底覺得說如果你要迎來這個AI的高用電實用核電是不是不可擋的趨勢呢?\n459494\t480409\t現在最主要還是一樣他電夠不夠的問題他電明顯就不夠嘛你們不能夠蒙蔽自己的眼睛說我們應該夠你怎麼算會夠呢你綠能我本席沒有反對綠能但是你綠能的這個發展你自己看他的數據就知道他根本跟不上來嘛\n482065\t484568\t國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n501268\t526601\t員警的部會那經濟部長也曾回答過我,郭部長就他也回答過我說他會考慮延長核電廠的使用年限而且這個是國發會的使命欸這句話不是沒有道理這重任是要放在你身上請主委要把他扛起來好不好我們全體的國民都可以做你的後盾但是主要是你要先願意扛起來\n527441\t535752\t因為法律的規定喔,能源政策是在經濟部能源設置的但是你可以有主張啊!不代表你不能有主張嘛!謝謝張院議員時間掌握得非常好\n","txt":"報告主席我想請劉主委請國會劉主委\n主委早安我就直接進入主題因為今天其實有很多委員大家都發言大家的問題其實都關心著國家未來的發展依據國發會過去的推估2025年65歲以上的長者將會佔總人口數的20%正式成為超高齡社會因此國發會\n我就是一兩年一度的人口推估獲得各方的重視啊剛才我們的楊委員有問啊但是這個發布的日期喔一再的延後到底是為什麼呢\n因為我希望更負責任的來報告這個數字所以我們進行了多次的內部的會議包括陳時中政務委員我們上禮拜也開了一個跨部會的會議我們16號我們會進入國家發展委員會由各部會首長討論以後我們就會公告因為我們希望我們帶著一些方案跟做法來面對\n這就是本席想要在你們開這個會之前也提醒一下主委我抱歉是10月17號的那個國家發展委員會禮拜四那我們國家裡面的這個經濟護長為65歲的這另外一個問題65歲以上的戶數就是高齡家庭的增加現在有半數出現入不敷出的情況就是賺的比花的少高齡家庭的第一位分主\n一百一十六萬戶裡面這是佔了這個高齡家庭有49%那該組可支配的所得只有35萬左右35.62那他的消費支出是39萬點34\n就是39.34元就是每年他要短差將近4萬元3.78萬元那尤其是高齡社會他可能會面臨的突如其來的包括生病啊等等一些支出那所以主計總署有一個高齡家庭的這個CPI指數調查說高齡家庭面臨CPI的漲幅高於其他全體的家庭所以本席建議啊國發會應該把這個問題\n反映到行政院院會包括就是我想這個問題包括長照上一次那個主委去我辦公室的時候我也有跟主委建議說引法長照機構也更加應該積極的去建構\n那接下來我想要問一下就是主委之前在講的有關於AI技術等等那全世界現況顯示為了對抗暖化跟這個高碳排已經這個而且迎來這個AI的高用電使用核電已經是不可擋的趨勢而台灣呢主委是否認同我們核電機組的年限應該儘速的修法延長呢\n這個目前以我們現在只能這個店基本上因為本身不是國發會主政的但是就我瞭解我想聽聽你的意見國家發展畢竟跟你的這個業務執掌息息相關就我瞭解目前因為沒有任何法令的變動所以核電廠一定會在明年關掉就是在你國發會的這個立場你會不會主張應該要延長呢\n我們目前以國安會的立場我們現在只是從永續的角度發展多元利能因為現在廠家需要R100那他需要綠能那我們希望幫忙廠家找到更多的綠能所以目前我們也協助經濟部在發展地熱或者是氫能源等等的是這些其實都應該並行啊\n所以上週像上週電價審議委員會決議就是說這個產業用電要漲12.5%那原本有很多AI的巨頭都考慮來臺灣設基地更不用說我們本來的這個護國神山台積電用電量就幾乎是全臺灣的10%了那請問主委就是這個電價調漲之後你原本破壞的這個AI產業架構有沒有什麼影響\n目前就我了解我們評估下來並沒有太大的影響沒有太大的影響?是的怎麼會?你可以解釋一下嗎?我跟委員報告一下現在像以新加坡來講你要去設一個Data Center要用百分之百的綠電那那個金額都是比我們現在的用電量還要更高那所以它其實在其他國家裡面我們目前還是有GBAD的U4\n我完全不能理解說因為據本席理解說這個建制高速運算主機包括這個超級電腦它算力是很重要的但是它是一個吃電的巨獸根據112年度全國電力資源供需報告推過AI科技的用電需求是至117年要增加20萬瓦200萬瓦\n那這個成長是相較於1、2年是8倍所以臺灣的電力發電結構不需要改變就能夠支應這是依據什麼樣道理說你可以支應經濟部次長在這裡也許他可以做我就要問你經濟部我到時候再問經濟部OK我就不曉得說主委你是不是認同說我們國家的這個發電結構應該要改變呢\n對我來講第一個我看的是電夠不夠所以其實我跟郭部長還有我跟台電董事長我也開過會那我們都一再的要求他們去除了電不夠之外呢電目前呢\n明顯顯示說到時候這個核三機組退役之後明顯會有一個用電缺口之外根據台電最新的數據每度電平均發電成本是3.06塊那核電是全部裡面最低的每度電只1.16塊那如果假設假設假設就是最高的5至6塊包括你常常\n他在旁邊你就知道他常常還要跟民間收電欸你知道民間收電要多少錢嗎?10元、8元都在收那所以我們國家一直在撥補到目前為止已經撥補了4千億了明年還要再撥補1千億所以這樣加起來5千億欸國發會主任你自己想一想這對國家發展是有利的嗎?所以我們再進一步發展多元藝能\n國際上重啟核能已經是勢不可擋的趨勢包括日本的新任首相他也表示說不會放棄核電韓國的那個他也發表了去核電的政策那核能發電量已經佔他全國發電量的30%了所以我想要知道的是包括美國包括瑞士大家都在\n重啟核能這是一個潮流所以我可以再請教一下主委說你到底覺得說如果你要迎來這個AI的高用電實用核電是不是不可擋的趨勢呢?\n現在最主要還是一樣他電夠不夠的問題他電明顯就不夠嘛你們不能夠蒙蔽自己的眼睛說我們應該夠你怎麼算會夠呢你綠能我本席沒有反對綠能但是你綠能的這個發展你自己看他的數據就知道他根本跟不上來嘛\n國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n員警的部會那經濟部長也曾回答過我,郭部長就他也回答過我說他會考慮延長核電廠的使用年限而且這個是國發會的使命欸這句話不是沒有道理這重任是要放在你身上請主委要把他扛起來好不好我們全體的國民都可以做你的後盾但是主要是你要先願意扛起來\n因為法律的規定喔,能源政策是在經濟部能源設置的但是你可以有主張啊!不代表你不能有主張嘛!謝謝張院議員時間掌握得非常好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.223 --> 00:07.788\n報告主席我想請劉主委請國會劉主委\n\n00:12.988 --> 00:24.374\n主委早安我就直接進入主題因為今天其實有很多委員大家都發言大家的問題其實都關心著國家未來的發展依據國發會過去的推估2025年65歲以上的長者將會佔總人口數的20%正式成為超高齡社會因此國發會\n\n00:39.381 --> 00:51.128\n我就是一兩年一度的人口推估獲得各方的重視啊剛才我們的楊委員有問啊但是這個發布的日期喔一再的延後到底是為什麼呢\n\n00:52.233 --> 01:03.756\n因為我希望更負責任的來報告這個數字所以我們進行了多次的內部的會議包括陳時中政務委員我們上禮拜也開了一個跨部會的會議我們16號我們會進入國家發展委員會由各部會首長討論以後我們就會公告因為我們希望我們帶著一些方案跟做法來面對\n\n01:15.459 --> 01:42.554\n這就是本席想要在你們開這個會之前也提醒一下主委我抱歉是10月17號的那個國家發展委員會禮拜四那我們國家裡面的這個經濟護長為65歲的這另外一個問題65歲以上的戶數就是高齡家庭的增加現在有半數出現入不敷出的情況就是賺的比花的少高齡家庭的第一位分主\n\n01:43.234 --> 01:51.742\n一百一十六萬戶裡面這是佔了這個高齡家庭有49%那該組可支配的所得只有35萬左右35.62那他的消費支出是39萬點34\n\n02:00.450 --> 02:17.981\n就是39.34元就是每年他要短差將近4萬元3.78萬元那尤其是高齡社會他可能會面臨的突如其來的包括生病啊等等一些支出那所以主計總署有一個高齡家庭的這個CPI指數調查說高齡家庭面臨CPI的漲幅高於其他全體的家庭所以本席建議啊國發會應該把這個問題\n\n02:29.528 --> 02:43.693\n反映到行政院院會包括就是我想這個問題包括長照上一次那個主委去我辦公室的時候我也有跟主委建議說引法長照機構也更加應該積極的去建構\n\n02:46.514 --> 03:11.379\n那接下來我想要問一下就是主委之前在講的有關於AI技術等等那全世界現況顯示為了對抗暖化跟這個高碳排已經這個而且迎來這個AI的高用電使用核電已經是不可擋的趨勢而台灣呢主委是否認同我們核電機組的年限應該儘速的修法延長呢\n\n03:13.763 --> 03:34.001\n這個目前以我們現在只能這個店基本上因為本身不是國發會主政的但是就我瞭解我想聽聽你的意見國家發展畢竟跟你的這個業務執掌息息相關就我瞭解目前因為沒有任何法令的變動所以核電廠一定會在明年關掉就是在你國發會的這個立場你會不會主張應該要延長呢\n\n03:38.626 --> 03:58.874\n我們目前以國安會的立場我們現在只是從永續的角度發展多元利能因為現在廠家需要R100那他需要綠能那我們希望幫忙廠家找到更多的綠能所以目前我們也協助經濟部在發展地熱或者是氫能源等等的是這些其實都應該並行啊\n\n04:00.615 --> 04:05.859\n所以上週像上週電價審議委員會決議就是說這個產業用電要漲12.5%那原本有很多AI的巨頭都考慮來臺灣設基地更不用說我們本來的這個護國神山台積電用電量就幾乎是全臺灣的10%了那請問主委就是這個電價調漲之後你原本破壞的這個AI產業架構有沒有什麼影響\n\n04:27.638 --> 04:51.833\n目前就我了解我們評估下來並沒有太大的影響沒有太大的影響?是的怎麼會?你可以解釋一下嗎?我跟委員報告一下現在像以新加坡來講你要去設一個DataCenter要用百分之百的綠電那那個金額都是比我們現在的用電量還要更高那所以它其實在其他國家裡面我們目前還是有GBAD的U4\n\n04:53.752 --> 05:10.143\n我完全不能理解說因為據本席理解說這個建制高速運算主機包括這個超級電腦它算力是很重要的但是它是一個吃電的巨獸根據112年度全國電力資源供需報告推過AI科技的用電需求是至117年要增加20萬瓦200萬瓦\n\n05:22.492 --> 05:45.776\n那這個成長是相較於1、2年是8倍所以臺灣的電力發電結構不需要改變就能夠支應這是依據什麼樣道理說你可以支應經濟部次長在這裡也許他可以做我就要問你經濟部我到時候再問經濟部OK我就不曉得說主委你是不是認同說我們國家的這個發電結構應該要改變呢\n\n05:49.885 --> 06:00.999\n對我來講第一個我看的是電夠不夠所以其實我跟郭部長還有我跟台電董事長我也開過會那我們都一再的要求他們去除了電不夠之外呢電目前呢\n\n06:04.984 --> 06:16.409\n明顯顯示說到時候這個核三機組退役之後明顯會有一個用電缺口之外根據台電最新的數據每度電平均發電成本是3.06塊那核電是全部裡面最低的每度電只1.16塊那如果假設假設假設就是最高的5至6塊包括你常常\n\n06:33.496 --> 06:38.479\n他在旁邊你就知道他常常還要跟民間收電欸你知道民間收電要多少錢嗎?10元、8元都在收那所以我們國家一直在撥補到目前為止已經撥補了4千億了明年還要再撥補1千億所以這樣加起來5千億欸國發會主任你自己想一想這對國家發展是有利的嗎?所以我們再進一步發展多元藝能\n\n07:00.230 --> 07:24.536\n國際上重啟核能已經是勢不可擋的趨勢包括日本的新任首相他也表示說不會放棄核電韓國的那個他也發表了去核電的政策那核能發電量已經佔他全國發電量的30%了所以我想要知道的是包括美國包括瑞士大家都在\n\n07:25.805 --> 07:37.401\n重啟核能這是一個潮流所以我可以再請教一下主委說你到底覺得說如果你要迎來這個AI的高用電實用核電是不是不可擋的趨勢呢?\n\n07:39.494 --> 08:00.409\n現在最主要還是一樣他電夠不夠的問題他電明顯就不夠嘛你們不能夠蒙蔽自己的眼睛說我們應該夠你怎麼算會夠呢你綠能我本席沒有反對綠能但是你綠能的這個發展你自己看他的數據就知道他根本跟不上來嘛\n\n08:02.065 --> 08:04.568\n國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n\n08:21.268 --> 08:46.601\n員警的部會那經濟部長也曾回答過我,郭部長就他也回答過我說他會考慮延長核電廠的使用年限而且這個是國發會的使命欸這句話不是沒有道理這重任是要放在你身上請主委要把他扛起來好不好我們全體的國民都可以做你的後盾但是主要是你要先願意扛起來\n\n08:47.441 --> 08:55.752\n因為法律的規定喔,能源政策是在經濟部能源設置的但是你可以有主張啊!不代表你不能有主張嘛!謝謝張院議員時間掌握得非常好\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.223,"end":7.788,"text":"報告主席我想請劉主委請國會劉主委"},{"start":12.988,"end":24.374,"text":"主委早安我就直接進入主題因為今天其實有很多委員大家都發言大家的問題其實都關心著國家未來的發展依據國發會過去的推估2025年65歲以上的長者將會佔總人口數的20%正式成為超高齡社會因此國發會"},{"start":39.381,"end":51.128,"text":"我就是一兩年一度的人口推估獲得各方的重視啊剛才我們的楊委員有問啊但是這個發布的日期喔一再的延後到底是為什麼呢"},{"start":52.233,"end":63.756,"text":"因為我希望更負責任的來報告這個數字所以我們進行了多次的內部的會議包括陳時中政務委員我們上禮拜也開了一個跨部會的會議我們16號我們會進入國家發展委員會由各部會首長討論以後我們就會公告因為我們希望我們帶著一些方案跟做法來面對"},{"start":75.459,"end":102.554,"text":"這就是本席想要在你們開這個會之前也提醒一下主委我抱歉是10月17號的那個國家發展委員會禮拜四那我們國家裡面的這個經濟護長為65歲的這另外一個問題65歲以上的戶數就是高齡家庭的增加現在有半數出現入不敷出的情況就是賺的比花的少高齡家庭的第一位分主"},{"start":103.234,"end":111.742,"text":"一百一十六萬戶裡面這是佔了這個高齡家庭有49%那該組可支配的所得只有35萬左右35.62那他的消費支出是39萬點34"},{"start":120.45,"end":137.981,"text":"就是39.34元就是每年他要短差將近4萬元3.78萬元那尤其是高齡社會他可能會面臨的突如其來的包括生病啊等等一些支出那所以主計總署有一個高齡家庭的這個CPI指數調查說高齡家庭面臨CPI的漲幅高於其他全體的家庭所以本席建議啊國發會應該把這個問題"},{"start":149.528,"end":163.693,"text":"反映到行政院院會包括就是我想這個問題包括長照上一次那個主委去我辦公室的時候我也有跟主委建議說引法長照機構也更加應該積極的去建構"},{"start":166.514,"end":191.379,"text":"那接下來我想要問一下就是主委之前在講的有關於AI技術等等那全世界現況顯示為了對抗暖化跟這個高碳排已經這個而且迎來這個AI的高用電使用核電已經是不可擋的趨勢而台灣呢主委是否認同我們核電機組的年限應該儘速的修法延長呢"},{"start":193.763,"end":214.001,"text":"這個目前以我們現在只能這個店基本上因為本身不是國發會主政的但是就我瞭解我想聽聽你的意見國家發展畢竟跟你的這個業務執掌息息相關就我瞭解目前因為沒有任何法令的變動所以核電廠一定會在明年關掉就是在你國發會的這個立場你會不會主張應該要延長呢"},{"start":218.626,"end":238.874,"text":"我們目前以國安會的立場我們現在只是從永續的角度發展多元利能因為現在廠家需要R100那他需要綠能那我們希望幫忙廠家找到更多的綠能所以目前我們也協助經濟部在發展地熱或者是氫能源等等的是這些其實都應該並行啊"},{"start":240.615,"end":245.859,"text":"所以上週像上週電價審議委員會決議就是說這個產業用電要漲12.5%那原本有很多AI的巨頭都考慮來臺灣設基地更不用說我們本來的這個護國神山台積電用電量就幾乎是全臺灣的10%了那請問主委就是這個電價調漲之後你原本破壞的這個AI產業架構有沒有什麼影響"},{"start":267.638,"end":291.833,"text":"目前就我了解我們評估下來並沒有太大的影響沒有太大的影響?是的怎麼會?你可以解釋一下嗎?我跟委員報告一下現在像以新加坡來講你要去設一個Data Center要用百分之百的綠電那那個金額都是比我們現在的用電量還要更高那所以它其實在其他國家裡面我們目前還是有GBAD的U4"},{"start":293.752,"end":310.143,"text":"我完全不能理解說因為據本席理解說這個建制高速運算主機包括這個超級電腦它算力是很重要的但是它是一個吃電的巨獸根據112年度全國電力資源供需報告推過AI科技的用電需求是至117年要增加20萬瓦200萬瓦"},{"start":322.492,"end":345.776,"text":"那這個成長是相較於1、2年是8倍所以臺灣的電力發電結構不需要改變就能夠支應這是依據什麼樣道理說你可以支應經濟部次長在這裡也許他可以做我就要問你經濟部我到時候再問經濟部OK我就不曉得說主委你是不是認同說我們國家的這個發電結構應該要改變呢"},{"start":349.885,"end":360.999,"text":"對我來講第一個我看的是電夠不夠所以其實我跟郭部長還有我跟台電董事長我也開過會那我們都一再的要求他們去除了電不夠之外呢電目前呢"},{"start":364.984,"end":376.409,"text":"明顯顯示說到時候這個核三機組退役之後明顯會有一個用電缺口之外根據台電最新的數據每度電平均發電成本是3.06塊那核電是全部裡面最低的每度電只1.16塊那如果假設假設假設就是最高的5至6塊包括你常常"},{"start":393.496,"end":398.479,"text":"他在旁邊你就知道他常常還要跟民間收電欸你知道民間收電要多少錢嗎?10元、8元都在收那所以我們國家一直在撥補到目前為止已經撥補了4千億了明年還要再撥補1千億所以這樣加起來5千億欸國發會主任你自己想一想這對國家發展是有利的嗎?所以我們再進一步發展多元藝能"},{"start":420.23,"end":444.536,"text":"國際上重啟核能已經是勢不可擋的趨勢包括日本的新任首相他也表示說不會放棄核電韓國的那個他也發表了去核電的政策那核能發電量已經佔他全國發電量的30%了所以我想要知道的是包括美國包括瑞士大家都在"},{"start":445.805,"end":457.401,"text":"重啟核能這是一個潮流所以我可以再請教一下主委說你到底覺得說如果你要迎來這個AI的高用電實用核電是不是不可擋的趨勢呢?"},{"start":459.494,"end":480.409,"text":"現在最主要還是一樣他電夠不夠的問題他電明顯就不夠嘛你們不能夠蒙蔽自己的眼睛說我們應該夠你怎麼算會夠呢你綠能我本席沒有反對綠能但是你綠能的這個發展你自己看他的數據就知道他根本跟不上來嘛"},{"start":482.065,"end":484.568,"text":"國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":501.268,"end":526.601,"text":"員警的部會那經濟部長也曾回答過我,郭部長就他也回答過我說他會考慮延長核電廠的使用年限而且這個是國發會的使命欸這句話不是沒有道理這重任是要放在你身上請主委要把他扛起來好不好我們全體的國民都可以做你的後盾但是主要是你要先願意扛起來"},{"start":527.441,"end":535.752,"text":"因為法律的規定喔,能源政策是在經濟部能源設置的但是你可以有主張啊!不代表你不能有主張嘛!謝謝張院議員時間掌握得非常好"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:53:13 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11:02:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":155133,"gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時53分）主席，我想請劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：主委早安。我就直接進入主題，因為今天有很多委員發言，大家的問題其實都在關心國家未來的發展。依據國發會過去的推估，2025年65歲以上的長者將會占總人口數的20%，我國正式成為超高齡社會，因此，國發會兩年一度的人口推估獲得各方的重視，剛才我們楊委員也有問，但是發布的日期一再地延後，到底是為什麼呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我希望更負責任的來報告這個數字，所以我們進行了多次的內部會議，包括陳時中政務委員，我們上禮拜也開了一個跨部會的會議……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以什麼時候可以正式公布呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：16號我們會送進國家發展委員會，由各部會首長討論以後，我們就會公告。"],["張委員嘉郡：16號，所以下一週就會正式公布了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為我們希望我們能帶著一些方案跟作法來面對。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是本席想要在你們開這個會之前也提醒一下主委……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：抱歉，是10月17號（禮拜四）的那個國家發展委員會會議。"],["張委員嘉郡：10月17號？好。另外一個問題，我國經濟戶長為65歲以上的戶數（高齡家庭）逐年增加，現在有半數出現入不敷出的情況，就是賺得比花得少。高齡家庭第1分位組有116萬戶，約占65歲以上全體家庭的49%，而它的可支配所得35.62萬元，確實低於消費支出的39.34萬元，亦即每年要短差3.78萬，將近4萬元。尤其是高齡家庭可能會面臨突如其來的，包括生病等等的一些支出，所以主計總處發布的高齡家庭CPI指數調查結果顯示，高齡家庭的CPI年增率漲幅高於全體家庭的漲幅。本席建議國發會應該把這個問題反映到行政院院會，我想這個問題，包括長照，上一次主委去我辦公室的時候，我也有跟主委建議，應該更加積極地去建構銀髮長照機構。","接下來我想要問一下主委之前講的，有關於AI技術等等。全世界的現況顯示，為了對抗暖化跟高碳排，再加上高用電的AI迎面而來，使用核電已經是不可擋的趨勢。反觀臺灣，主委是否認同，我們核電機組的年限應該儘速地修法延長呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前因為電力基本上不是國發會主政的，但是就我了解，我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：我想要聽聽你的意見，國家發展畢竟跟你的業務職掌息息相關。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我了解，目前因為法令上沒有任何的變動，所以核電廠一定會在明年關掉。"],["張委員嘉郡：那站在國發會的立場，你會不會主張應該要延長呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以國發會的立場，我們現在只是從永續的角度發展多元綠能，因為現在廠家因應RE100，他需要綠能，那我們希望幫忙廠家找到更多的綠能，所以，目前我們也協助經濟部在發展地熱或者是氫能源等等的方案。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這些其實都應該並行，所以像上週電價審議委員會決議產業用電要漲12.5%，原本有很多AI巨頭都考慮來臺灣設基地，更不用說我們本來的護國神山台積電的用電量就幾乎占全臺灣的10%了。請問主委，在電價調漲之後，你原本擘劃的AI產業架構有沒有什麼影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前就我了解，我們評估下來並沒有太大的影響。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有太大的影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["張委員嘉郡：怎麼會？你可以解釋一下嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告一下，像以新加坡來講，現在你要去設一個data center要用百分之百的綠電，那個金額都比我們現在的用電量還要更高，所以相較於其他國家而言，我們目前還是有具備一定的優勢。"],["張委員嘉郡：我完全不能理解這個說法，因為根據本席的理解，建置高速運算主機，包括超級電腦，它的算力是很重要的，但是它是一個吃電的巨獸，根據112年度全國電力資源供需報告的推估，AI科技的用電需求至117年要增加200萬瓦，相較於112年將成長8倍！所以臺灣的電力發電結構不需要改變就能夠因應，請問是依據什麼道理說你可以因應？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：經濟部的次長也在場，也許他可以做……"],["張委員嘉郡：我就要問你！至於經濟部，我到時候再問經濟部。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：OK。"],["張委員嘉郡：我不曉得，主委，你是不是認同我們國家的發電結構應該要改變呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對我來講，第一個我看的是電夠不夠，所以其實我跟郭部長，還有我跟台電董事長也開過會，我們都一再地要求他們去把AI的用電考量進來……"],["張委員嘉郡：除了電不夠之外，目前顯示的是，到時候核三機組退役之後，明顯會有一個用電的缺口之外，根據台電最新的數據，每度電平均發電成本是3.06塊，核電是全部裡面最低的，每度電只要1.16塊……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，如果你有注意到，我們的核後端基金有四千多億，就是要處理核廢料的……"],["張委員嘉郡：那如果假設，假設……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：把這4,000多億攤起來，它比較高……"],["張委員嘉郡：假設這是最高的5至6塊，他在旁邊你就知道，他常常還要跟民間收電，你知道民間收電要多少錢嗎？10元、8元都在收，所以我們國家一直在撥補，到目前為止已經撥補了4,000億，明年還要再撥補1,000億，所以這樣加起來5,000億耶！國發會主委，你自己想一想，這對國家發展是有利的嗎？捫心自問一下，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們在積極發展多元綠能。"],["張委員嘉郡：在國際上重啟核能已經是勢不可擋的趨勢，包括日本的新任首相也表示不會放棄核電，韓國也廢除了去核電政策，核能發電量已經占它全國發電量的30%了，所以我想要知道的是，包括美國，包括瑞士，大家都在重啟核能，這是一個潮流，所以我再請教一下主委，如果你要迎來AI高用電，你覺得使用核電是不是不可擋的趨勢呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在最主要還是一樣，它電夠不夠的問題，如果電夠……"],["張委員嘉郡：它電明顯就不夠嘛！你們不能夠蒙蔽自己的眼睛說我們應該夠，你怎麼算會夠呢？本席沒有反對綠能，但是你綠能的發展，你自己看它的數據就知道，它根本跟不上來嘛！它根本跟不上來，那你要怎麼計算說它會夠呢？這個依據在哪裡？你不能靠想像的，你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是從台電的數據出來的啦！郭部長也多次去詢問產業，跟著去瞭解更進一步的數據……"],["張委員嘉郡：國發會是規劃全國經濟發展遠景的部會，那經濟部長也曾回答過我，郭部長也回答過我說他會考慮延長核電廠的使用年限，而且這個是國發會的使命耶！"],["主席：好，張委員，發言時間到。"],["張委員嘉郡：這句話不是沒有道理，這個重任是要放在你身上，請主委要把它扛起來，好不好？我們全體的國民都可以做你的後盾，但主要是你要先願意扛起來。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為法律的規定，能源政策是在經濟部能源署設置的……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你可以有主張啊！不代表你不能有主張嘛！"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員，時間掌握得非常好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請回座。","下一位質詢請蔡易餘，發言時間6加2。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","陳超明","謝衣鳯","吳春城","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","黃國昌","黃建賓","廖偉翔","羅智強","牛煦庭"],"page_start":237,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家發展委員會主任\n委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、\n人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137901_00006"}}}