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00:00:47,863\n畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況那因為雷神是很重要的系統商在世界各國包含美國自己本土包含台灣合作的項目非常多涵蓋了水面下水面以及陸地空中很多的項目所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象\n\n3\n00:00:48,524 --> 00:01:14,996\n那這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意台價或者以美國司法部所講的涉及的相關不當的詐欺的情形那我以下詢問的題目我是希望透過你的回答讓國人瞭解發生什麼事我再強調一次不宜公開的不適合講的部長就直接說這個不適合公開本席會予以尊重第一個這一個所謂的台價\n\n4\n00:01:16,297 --> 00:01:19,320\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n5\n00:01:38,556 --> 00:02:00,295\n所以這個案子就這個案子雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎我們是跟美國政府簽約軍售案就所以我們是跟美國政府簽約美國政府跟雷神簽約所以美國政府本身也美國陸軍也是採購方那他可能有好幾個國家一起在這合約裡面我這樣詮釋對還是錯\n\n6\n00:02:03,282 --> 00:02:28,696\n所以他這個是一個三判關係應該是A跟B簽約B跟C簽約我們的對口就是美國政府所以美國政府要對我們互完全的對所以我們不是直接對雷神至少這一件案子上面我們軍售案都不是直接對廠商對廠商是商售我待會會問一下商售的防備機制接下來\n\n7\n00:02:29,884 --> 00:02:39,346\n就目前美國司法部通知我國這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統還是不便回答\n\n8\n00:02:41,038 --> 00:03:03,823\n我想這個部分就不變回答。不變回答。因為這個跟我後面問的有關係。那我看媒體有報導,你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查是從2013年溯源找到了跟台灣有相關的情形。所以是2013年開始,但是我們不能說是哪個年度。他說2013年開始的相關的案子。\n\n9\n00:03:06,526 --> 00:03:29,491\n我剛在機密專報裡面報告了我想我就不再OK好那美方主動告知我們因為你剛才講的這是一個軍售漢所以美國必須對品質及和各方面履約條件要負完全的責任我們就是buyer他要向我們負責嘛這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛那我請教部長就是說就軍售案\n\n10\n00:03:30,745 --> 00:03:49,878\n在這個事件當中因為我們用莫菲定律來講如果你有一個兩個三個四個或者一個你有台價的情形我們有沒有去回顧至少雷神相關的案子的軍售案有沒有類似的情形第一個我們有沒有這樣做第二個是我們有沒有能力這樣做\n\n11\n00:03:50,939 --> 00:04:07,672\n我想要美國的政府會來全面的來展開所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子有沒有類似的詐數?美方應該會進行我們有沒有要求?\n\n12\n00:04:40,820 --> 00:05:05,727\n沒有能力就沒有能力因為我跟你買東西像我去買一台車車商交給我了我根本無法預先知道你在車廠掉了三個零件或者是液零了沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情因為我是買方嘛就好像我們去跟經銷商買了一輛車子它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到我現在只是詢問在軍售案上有關軍售這個模式\n\n13\n00:05:06,727 --> 00:05:24,233\n台灣有沒有能力注意、處理或了解到異常現象?沒有辦法。是沒有辦法的?沒有辦法。所以要靠美方,就是我們簽約方,他還去做相關的集合?我們大概應該是只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析啦。這個是我們能夠...\n\n14\n00:05:26,034 --> 00:05:54,876\n軍事裝備與日俱新他換了一個裝一個裡面的零件就告訴你這是model2你很難去做比價啦所以美國他有多層的一個美國的audit美國的這一個機盒其實坦白講蠻嚴謹的啦對他從成本的這個這個審核那就有好幾層的機制那後來到後面的這個機盒的機制履約過程當中然後他也也有也有都有嚴密的保管\n\n15\n00:05:55,549 --> 00:06:21,931\n有關這一次雷神這個案子是美國國防部就軍方集合主動查出來的對美國的是美國軍方查出來的不是司法部調查出來的嘛對是主計局嘛審計局他等於主計人他做audit的時候查到了嘛然後他查到之後他往前溯源到2013年去查各國相關的情形所以美國的集合制度是能夠找出這樣的問題\n\n16\n00:06:22,972 --> 00:06:50,960\n好那我現在問了因為軍售是美方採購向我們負責那他自己要跟簽約方負責他要去做audition這是他的問題那我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售商售就沒有經過美國政府了當然我期待我們的主計單位我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計審計單位一樣的堅實一樣可以把它review可以把它找出來我現在請教商售的部分我方如何做審計\n\n17\n00:06:52,284 --> 00:07:19,940\n有沒有能力有沒有能力去找出這異常的現象我想我們商售的程序會根據這個收集做一些商情的訪查包括這個他們的報價的資料跟一些採購的價格我們會加以分析然後我們根據這些相關的分析之後我們應該要有一個進一步的一個\n\n18\n00:07:21,912 --> 00:07:22,497\n已就索根\n\n19\n00:07:24,332 --> 00:07:51,793\n就這些筆價的這個就是說要相關的一些多管的這個商員進行一個筆價的一個程序我請教黃師長或者主席許長或者是採購師採購師這邊因為軍事裝備的採購你像我們最近要送到台灣的M1A2T它就一個Tmodel它後面多了一個電源箱就是它要有一些型它不是每一個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣\n\n20\n00:07:53,514 --> 00:08:15,907\n我現在的問題其實很簡單軍售部分美方向我們負責他要去做集合嘛那我們商售的部分其實量也不小那商售的部分我們國防部有沒有能力做相關的集合查核是跟委員報告其實我們商購只要簽約以後我們要求的就是一定要履約督導一定要防場查驗\n\n21\n00:08:16,647 --> 00:08:39,830\n那包含防火產業包含它的製程包含它生產的這個它的用料是怎麼來的整個這個相關的我們都要去查驗就合約會要求他要對我們負責對我們透明嗎因為這是我們自己要來做那我你還是沒有回答問題就是以這是雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況如果發生在商購上我們會不會發現\n\n22\n00:08:48,529 --> 00:09:02,776\n我坦白講我是期待因為美國司法部也許這個案子整個到一個段落之後他會公佈所有report我第一個出於國家利益的好奇我們應該去了解他到底怎麼查出來的\n\n23\n00:09:04,529 --> 00:09:23,456\n他怎麼去找出這個洞來的那我們國家有沒有類似的情形我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛所以部長我這一趴要問的意思就是說軍購當然我們就要求美方我們是buyer但商購的不能變成我方的採購我方的集合主計相關要負相關的責任\n\n24\n00:09:24,696 --> 00:09:38,808\n那我們在我們現有的制度上有沒有能力去做出查出這樣的案子或者有沒有不足的地方我們可以補強的他山之石我們可以來借用嗎部長對這事情怎麼看法\n\n25\n00:09:40,209 --> 00:09:57,037\n我想我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來相關的這個成本的分析是重要的這是第一點那第二點就是說同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商員來進行比價的這樣的一個程序\n\n26\n00:09:57,717 --> 00:09:59,719\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n27\n00:10:19,219 --> 00:10:40,913\n商購或我們國軍採購不管是軍備局或各單位的採購齁這個集合方式的部分這個SOP的流程這應該不算機密嘛齁這應該可以揭露讓我們知道就你們怎麼去查核這些事情的那個流程啊我不是講內容你們怎麼去查核這個流程的我們才能從你的流程當中站在國會監督的角色我們可以去看哪一個步驟\n\n28\n00:10:41,914 --> 00:11:08,227\n可能這個部分要強化一點或哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到這個流程能不能公布給我們知道我們來進行這樣子的一個流程的檢討然後再跟委員做個報告那我接下來一樣跟著這個問題問就是我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業所以本席在我印象第9屆第10屆我們通過了國防產業促進條例那國防產業促進條例之後我們就有各種品項\n\n29\n00:11:09,608 --> 00:11:10,869\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報\n\n30\n00:11:33,027 --> 00:11:57,515\n尤其是美製的比較早期的武器裝備有原廠授權的大概都不用不用再討論了一定是用他的那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的你說他叫A貨或者那就是他有能力做出來也經過驗證了這兩個在採購上順序的優到底是美國原廠授權優先還是國內產業驗證優先哪一個優先\n\n31\n00:12:02,133 --> 00:12:13,879\n我最後提醒就是說我們有一些比方說我不舉特定品項了有一些早期美方供應我們的裝備以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權打死了就是他優先沒有話講因為他原廠的嘛可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後\n\n32\n00:12:31,167 --> 00:12:49,816\n本土的廠商經過驗證證明這能力的話他取得了認證資格這個是有法律地位的過去那個原廠授權的那個是默契行為所以這個李院長這樣講是對的就是說在法律上這個是優先但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好\n\n33\n00:12:50,456 --> 00:13:19,365\n而且經過市場的競爭我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下我們國內現在還用的也許要是早期的已經有些裝備零組件台灣廠商在做了但美國原廠也有還在做我們也應該要求美國原廠說你也來申請驗證你懂我意思嗎尊重我們國家法律除非他放棄了這塊市場他不要了我們的飛機啊我們的戰車啦我們有很多都是\n\n34\n00:13:21,126 --> 00:13:38,298\n對世界上來看他是比較早期的東西所以零組件現在有偽製廠商會做但是美國的原廠或者歐洲原廠他也還會做所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土產商驗證優先原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候\n\n35\n00:13:39,019 --> 00:13:39,039\n好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n469\t23821\t謝謝主席麻煩部長請副部長另外我們戰規司黃司長部長我還是要問一下雷神的案子但是基於國家的利益台美的默契以及我們相關保密的要求如果涉及機密不宜對外公開的那你可以直接表達這不宜回答這個我會尊重\n24961\t47863\t畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況那因為雷神是很重要的系統商在世界各國包含美國自己本土包含台灣合作的項目非常多涵蓋了水面下水面以及陸地空中很多的項目所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象\n48524\t74996\t那這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意台價或者以美國司法部所講的涉及的相關不當的詐欺的情形那我以下詢問的題目我是希望透過你的回答讓國人瞭解發生什麼事我再強調一次不宜公開的不適合講的部長就直接說這個不適合公開本席會予以尊重第一個這一個所謂的台價\n76297\t79320\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n98556\t120295\t所以這個案子就這個案子雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎我們是跟美國政府簽約軍售案就所以我們是跟美國政府簽約美國政府跟雷神簽約所以美國政府本身也美國陸軍也是採購方那他可能有好幾個國家一起在這合約裡面我這樣詮釋對還是錯\n123282\t148696\t所以他這個是一個三判關係應該是A跟B簽約B跟C簽約我們的對口就是美國政府所以美國政府要對我們互完全的對所以我們不是直接對雷神至少這一件案子上面我們軍售案都不是直接對廠商對廠商是商售我待會會問一下商售的防備機制接下來\n149884\t159346\t就目前美國司法部通知我國這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統還是不便回答\n161038\t183823\t我想這個部分就不變回答。不變回答。因為這個跟我後面問的有關係。那我看媒體有報導,你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查是從2013年溯源找到了跟台灣有相關的情形。所以是2013年開始,但是我們不能說是哪個年度。他說2013年開始的相關的案子。\n186526\t209491\t我剛在機密專報裡面報告了我想我就不再OK好那美方主動告知我們因為你剛才講的這是一個軍售漢所以美國必須對品質及和各方面履約條件要負完全的責任我們就是buyer他要向我們負責嘛這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛那我請教部長就是說就軍售案\n210745\t229878\t在這個事件當中因為我們用莫菲定律來講如果你有一個兩個三個四個或者一個你有台價的情形我們有沒有去回顧至少雷神相關的案子的軍售案有沒有類似的情形第一個我們有沒有這樣做第二個是我們有沒有能力這樣做\n230939\t247672\t我想要美國的政府會來全面的來展開所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子有沒有類似的詐數?美方應該會進行我們有沒有要求?\n248353\t277654\t呃...\n280820\t305727\t沒有能力就沒有能力因為我跟你買東西像我去買一台車車商交給我了我根本無法預先知道你在車廠掉了三個零件或者是液零了沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情因為我是買方嘛就好像我們去跟經銷商買了一輛車子它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到我現在只是詢問在軍售案上有關軍售這個模式\n306727\t324233\t台灣有沒有能力注意、處理或了解到異常現象?沒有辦法。是沒有辦法的?沒有辦法。所以要靠美方,就是我們簽約方,他還去做相關的集合?我們大概應該是只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析啦。這個是我們能夠...\n326034\t354876\t軍事裝備與日俱新他換了一個裝一個裡面的零件就告訴你這是model 2你很難去做比價啦所以美國他有多層的一個美國的audit美國的這一個機盒其實坦白講蠻嚴謹的啦對他從成本的這個這個審核那就有好幾層的機制那後來到後面的這個機盒的機制履約過程當中然後他也也有也有都有嚴密的保管\n355549\t381931\t有關這一次雷神這個案子是美國國防部就軍方集合主動查出來的對美國的是美國軍方查出來的不是司法部調查出來的嘛對是主計局嘛審計局他等於主計人他做audit的時候查到了嘛然後他查到之後他往前溯源到2013年去查各國相關的情形所以美國的集合制度是能夠找出這樣的問題\n382972\t410960\t好那我現在問了因為軍售是美方採購向我們負責那他自己要跟簽約方負責他要去做audition這是他的問題那我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售商售就沒有經過美國政府了當然我期待我們的主計單位我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計審計單位一樣的堅實一樣可以把它review可以把它找出來我現在請教商售的部分我方如何做審計\n412284\t439940\t有沒有能力有沒有能力去找出這異常的現象我想我們商售的程序會根據這個收集做一些商情的訪查包括這個他們的報價的資料跟一些採購的價格我們會加以分析然後我們根據這些相關的分析之後我們應該要有一個進一步的一個\n441912\t442497\t已就索根\n444332\t471793\t就這些筆價的這個就是說要相關的一些多管的這個商員進行一個筆價的一個程序我請教黃師長或者主席許長或者是採購師採購師這邊因為軍事裝備的採購你像我們最近要送到台灣的M1A2T它就一個T model它後面多了一個電源箱就是它要有一些型它不是每一個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣\n473514\t495907\t我現在的問題其實很簡單軍售部分美方向我們負責他要去做集合嘛那我們商售的部分其實量也不小那商售的部分我們國防部有沒有能力做相關的集合查核是跟委員報告其實我們商購只要簽約以後我們要求的就是一定要履約督導一定要防場查驗\n496647\t519830\t那包含防火產業包含它的製程包含它生產的這個它的用料是怎麼來的整個這個相關的我們都要去查驗就合約會要求他要對我們負責對我們透明嗎因為這是我們自己要來做那我你還是沒有回答問題就是以這是雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況如果發生在商購上我們會不會發現\n528529\t542776\t我坦白講我是期待因為美國司法部也許這個案子整個到一個段落之後他會公佈所有report我第一個出於國家利益的好奇我們應該去了解他到底怎麼查出來的\n544529\t563456\t他怎麼去找出這個洞來的那我們國家有沒有類似的情形我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛所以部長我這一趴要問的意思就是說軍購當然我們就要求美方我們是buyer但商購的不能變成我方的採購我方的集合主計相關要負相關的責任\n564696\t578808\t那我們在我們現有的制度上有沒有能力去做出查出這樣的案子或者有沒有不足的地方我們可以補強的他山之石我們可以來借用嗎部長對這事情怎麼看法\n580209\t597037\t我想我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來相關的這個成本的分析是重要的這是第一點那第二點就是說同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商員來進行比價的這樣的一個程序\n597717\t599719\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n619219\t640913\t商購或我們國軍採購不管是軍備局或各單位的採購齁這個集合方式的部分這個SOP的流程這應該不算機密嘛齁這應該可以揭露讓我們知道就你們怎麼去查核這些事情的那個流程啊我不是講內容你們怎麼去查核這個流程的我們才能從你的流程當中站在國會監督的角色我們可以去看哪一個步驟\n641914\t668227\t可能這個部分要強化一點或哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到這個流程能不能公布給我們知道我們來進行這樣子的一個流程的檢討然後再跟委員做個報告那我接下來一樣跟著這個問題問就是我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業所以本席在我印象第9屆第10屆我們通過了國防產業促進條例那國防產業促進條例之後我們就有各種品項\n669608\t670869\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報\n693027\t717515\t尤其是美製的比較早期的武器裝備有原廠授權的大概都不用不用再討論了一定是用他的那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的你說他叫A貨或者那就是他有能力做出來也經過驗證了這兩個在採購上順序的優到底是美國原廠授權優先還是國內產業驗證優先哪一個優先\n722133\t733879\t我最後提醒就是說我們有一些比方說我不舉特定品項了有一些早期美方供應我們的裝備以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權打死了就是他優先沒有話講因為他原廠的嘛可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後\n751167\t769816\t本土的廠商經過驗證證明這能力的話他取得了認證資格這個是有法律地位的過去那個原廠授權的那個是默契行為所以這個李院長這樣講是對的就是說在法律上這個是優先但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好\n770456\t799365\t而且經過市場的競爭我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下我們國內現在還用的也許要是早期的已經有些裝備零組件台灣廠商在做了但美國原廠也有還在做我們也應該要求美國原廠說你也來申請驗證你懂我意思嗎尊重我們國家法律除非他放棄了這塊市場他不要了我們的飛機啊我們的戰車啦我們有很多都是\n801126\t818298\t對世界上來看他是比較早期的東西所以零組件現在有偽製廠商會做但是美國的原廠或者歐洲原廠他也還會做所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土產商驗證優先原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候\n819019\t819039\t好,謝謝。\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩部長請副部長另外我們戰規司黃司長部長我還是要問一下雷神的案子但是基於國家的利益台美的默契以及我們相關保密的要求如果涉及機密不宜對外公開的那你可以直接表達這不宜回答這個我會尊重\n畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況那因為雷神是很重要的系統商在世界各國包含美國自己本土包含台灣合作的項目非常多涵蓋了水面下水面以及陸地空中很多的項目所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象\n那這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意台價或者以美國司法部所講的涉及的相關不當的詐欺的情形那我以下詢問的題目我是希望透過你的回答讓國人瞭解發生什麼事我再強調一次不宜公開的不適合講的部長就直接說這個不適合公開本席會予以尊重第一個這一個所謂的台價\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n所以這個案子就這個案子雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎我們是跟美國政府簽約軍售案就所以我們是跟美國政府簽約美國政府跟雷神簽約所以美國政府本身也美國陸軍也是採購方那他可能有好幾個國家一起在這合約裡面我這樣詮釋對還是錯\n所以他這個是一個三判關係應該是A跟B簽約B跟C簽約我們的對口就是美國政府所以美國政府要對我們互完全的對所以我們不是直接對雷神至少這一件案子上面我們軍售案都不是直接對廠商對廠商是商售我待會會問一下商售的防備機制接下來\n就目前美國司法部通知我國這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統還是不便回答\n我想這個部分就不變回答。不變回答。因為這個跟我後面問的有關係。那我看媒體有報導,你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查是從2013年溯源找到了跟台灣有相關的情形。所以是2013年開始,但是我們不能說是哪個年度。他說2013年開始的相關的案子。\n我剛在機密專報裡面報告了我想我就不再OK好那美方主動告知我們因為你剛才講的這是一個軍售漢所以美國必須對品質及和各方面履約條件要負完全的責任我們就是buyer他要向我們負責嘛這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛那我請教部長就是說就軍售案\n在這個事件當中因為我們用莫菲定律來講如果你有一個兩個三個四個或者一個你有台價的情形我們有沒有去回顧至少雷神相關的案子的軍售案有沒有類似的情形第一個我們有沒有這樣做第二個是我們有沒有能力這樣做\n我想要美國的政府會來全面的來展開所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子有沒有類似的詐數?美方應該會進行我們有沒有要求?\n呃...\n沒有能力就沒有能力因為我跟你買東西像我去買一台車車商交給我了我根本無法預先知道你在車廠掉了三個零件或者是液零了沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情因為我是買方嘛就好像我們去跟經銷商買了一輛車子它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到我現在只是詢問在軍售案上有關軍售這個模式\n台灣有沒有能力注意、處理或了解到異常現象?沒有辦法。是沒有辦法的?沒有辦法。所以要靠美方,就是我們簽約方,他還去做相關的集合?我們大概應該是只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析啦。這個是我們能夠...\n軍事裝備與日俱新他換了一個裝一個裡面的零件就告訴你這是model 2你很難去做比價啦所以美國他有多層的一個美國的audit美國的這一個機盒其實坦白講蠻嚴謹的啦對他從成本的這個這個審核那就有好幾層的機制那後來到後面的這個機盒的機制履約過程當中然後他也也有也有都有嚴密的保管\n有關這一次雷神這個案子是美國國防部就軍方集合主動查出來的對美國的是美國軍方查出來的不是司法部調查出來的嘛對是主計局嘛審計局他等於主計人他做audit的時候查到了嘛然後他查到之後他往前溯源到2013年去查各國相關的情形所以美國的集合制度是能夠找出這樣的問題\n好那我現在問了因為軍售是美方採購向我們負責那他自己要跟簽約方負責他要去做audition這是他的問題那我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售商售就沒有經過美國政府了當然我期待我們的主計單位我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計審計單位一樣的堅實一樣可以把它review可以把它找出來我現在請教商售的部分我方如何做審計\n有沒有能力有沒有能力去找出這異常的現象我想我們商售的程序會根據這個收集做一些商情的訪查包括這個他們的報價的資料跟一些採購的價格我們會加以分析然後我們根據這些相關的分析之後我們應該要有一個進一步的一個\n已就索根\n就這些筆價的這個就是說要相關的一些多管的這個商員進行一個筆價的一個程序我請教黃師長或者主席許長或者是採購師採購師這邊因為軍事裝備的採購你像我們最近要送到台灣的M1A2T它就一個T model它後面多了一個電源箱就是它要有一些型它不是每一個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣\n我現在的問題其實很簡單軍售部分美方向我們負責他要去做集合嘛那我們商售的部分其實量也不小那商售的部分我們國防部有沒有能力做相關的集合查核是跟委員報告其實我們商購只要簽約以後我們要求的就是一定要履約督導一定要防場查驗\n那包含防火產業包含它的製程包含它生產的這個它的用料是怎麼來的整個這個相關的我們都要去查驗就合約會要求他要對我們負責對我們透明嗎因為這是我們自己要來做那我你還是沒有回答問題就是以這是雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況如果發生在商購上我們會不會發現\n我坦白講我是期待因為美國司法部也許這個案子整個到一個段落之後他會公佈所有report我第一個出於國家利益的好奇我們應該去了解他到底怎麼查出來的\n他怎麼去找出這個洞來的那我們國家有沒有類似的情形我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛所以部長我這一趴要問的意思就是說軍購當然我們就要求美方我們是buyer但商購的不能變成我方的採購我方的集合主計相關要負相關的責任\n那我們在我們現有的制度上有沒有能力去做出查出這樣的案子或者有沒有不足的地方我們可以補強的他山之石我們可以來借用嗎部長對這事情怎麼看法\n我想我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來相關的這個成本的分析是重要的這是第一點那第二點就是說同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商員來進行比價的這樣的一個程序\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n商購或我們國軍採購不管是軍備局或各單位的採購齁這個集合方式的部分這個SOP的流程這應該不算機密嘛齁這應該可以揭露讓我們知道就你們怎麼去查核這些事情的那個流程啊我不是講內容你們怎麼去查核這個流程的我們才能從你的流程當中站在國會監督的角色我們可以去看哪一個步驟\n可能這個部分要強化一點或哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到這個流程能不能公布給我們知道我們來進行這樣子的一個流程的檢討然後再跟委員做個報告那我接下來一樣跟著這個問題問就是我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業所以本席在我印象第9屆第10屆我們通過了國防產業促進條例那國防產業促進條例之後我們就有各種品項\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報\n尤其是美製的比較早期的武器裝備有原廠授權的大概都不用不用再討論了一定是用他的那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的你說他叫A貨或者那就是他有能力做出來也經過驗證了這兩個在採購上順序的優到底是美國原廠授權優先還是國內產業驗證優先哪一個優先\n我最後提醒就是說我們有一些比方說我不舉特定品項了有一些早期美方供應我們的裝備以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權打死了就是他優先沒有話講因為他原廠的嘛可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後\n本土的廠商經過驗證證明這能力的話他取得了認證資格這個是有法律地位的過去那個原廠授權的那個是默契行為所以這個李院長這樣講是對的就是說在法律上這個是優先但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好\n而且經過市場的競爭我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下我們國內現在還用的也許要是早期的已經有些裝備零組件台灣廠商在做了但美國原廠也有還在做我們也應該要求美國原廠說你也來申請驗證你懂我意思嗎尊重我們國家法律除非他放棄了這塊市場他不要了我們的飛機啊我們的戰車啦我們有很多都是\n對世界上來看他是比較早期的東西所以零組件現在有偽製廠商會做但是美國的原廠或者歐洲原廠他也還會做所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土產商驗證優先原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候\n好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.469 --> 00:23.821\n謝謝主席麻煩部長請副部長另外我們戰規司黃司長部長我還是要問一下雷神的案子但是基於國家的利益台美的默契以及我們相關保密的要求如果涉及機密不宜對外公開的那你可以直接表達這不宜回答這個我會尊重\n\n00:24.961 --> 00:47.863\n畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況那因為雷神是很重要的系統商在世界各國包含美國自己本土包含台灣合作的項目非常多涵蓋了水面下水面以及陸地空中很多的項目所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象\n\n00:48.524 --> 01:14.996\n那這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意台價或者以美國司法部所講的涉及的相關不當的詐欺的情形那我以下詢問的題目我是希望透過你的回答讓國人瞭解發生什麼事我再強調一次不宜公開的不適合講的部長就直接說這個不適合公開本席會予以尊重第一個這一個所謂的台價\n\n01:16.297 --> 01:19.320\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n01:38.556 --> 02:00.295\n所以這個案子就這個案子雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎我們是跟美國政府簽約軍售案就所以我們是跟美國政府簽約美國政府跟雷神簽約所以美國政府本身也美國陸軍也是採購方那他可能有好幾個國家一起在這合約裡面我這樣詮釋對還是錯\n\n02:03.282 --> 02:28.696\n所以他這個是一個三判關係應該是A跟B簽約B跟C簽約我們的對口就是美國政府所以美國政府要對我們互完全的對所以我們不是直接對雷神至少這一件案子上面我們軍售案都不是直接對廠商對廠商是商售我待會會問一下商售的防備機制接下來\n\n02:29.884 --> 02:39.346\n就目前美國司法部通知我國這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統還是不便回答\n\n02:41.038 --> 03:03.823\n我想這個部分就不變回答。不變回答。因為這個跟我後面問的有關係。那我看媒體有報導,你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查是從2013年溯源找到了跟台灣有相關的情形。所以是2013年開始,但是我們不能說是哪個年度。他說2013年開始的相關的案子。\n\n03:06.526 --> 03:29.491\n我剛在機密專報裡面報告了我想我就不再OK好那美方主動告知我們因為你剛才講的這是一個軍售漢所以美國必須對品質及和各方面履約條件要負完全的責任我們就是buyer他要向我們負責嘛這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛那我請教部長就是說就軍售案\n\n03:30.745 --> 03:49.878\n在這個事件當中因為我們用莫菲定律來講如果你有一個兩個三個四個或者一個你有台價的情形我們有沒有去回顧至少雷神相關的案子的軍售案有沒有類似的情形第一個我們有沒有這樣做第二個是我們有沒有能力這樣做\n\n03:50.939 --> 04:07.672\n我想要美國的政府會來全面的來展開所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子有沒有類似的詐數?美方應該會進行我們有沒有要求?\n\n04:40.820 --> 05:05.727\n沒有能力就沒有能力因為我跟你買東西像我去買一台車車商交給我了我根本無法預先知道你在車廠掉了三個零件或者是液零了沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情因為我是買方嘛就好像我們去跟經銷商買了一輛車子它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到我現在只是詢問在軍售案上有關軍售這個模式\n\n05:06.727 --> 05:24.233\n台灣有沒有能力注意、處理或了解到異常現象?沒有辦法。是沒有辦法的?沒有辦法。所以要靠美方,就是我們簽約方,他還去做相關的集合?我們大概應該是只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析啦。這個是我們能夠...\n\n05:26.034 --> 05:54.876\n軍事裝備與日俱新他換了一個裝一個裡面的零件就告訴你這是model2你很難去做比價啦所以美國他有多層的一個美國的audit美國的這一個機盒其實坦白講蠻嚴謹的啦對他從成本的這個這個審核那就有好幾層的機制那後來到後面的這個機盒的機制履約過程當中然後他也也有也有都有嚴密的保管\n\n05:55.549 --> 06:21.931\n有關這一次雷神這個案子是美國國防部就軍方集合主動查出來的對美國的是美國軍方查出來的不是司法部調查出來的嘛對是主計局嘛審計局他等於主計人他做audit的時候查到了嘛然後他查到之後他往前溯源到2013年去查各國相關的情形所以美國的集合制度是能夠找出這樣的問題\n\n06:22.972 --> 06:50.960\n好那我現在問了因為軍售是美方採購向我們負責那他自己要跟簽約方負責他要去做audition這是他的問題那我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售商售就沒有經過美國政府了當然我期待我們的主計單位我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計審計單位一樣的堅實一樣可以把它review可以把它找出來我現在請教商售的部分我方如何做審計\n\n06:52.284 --> 07:19.940\n有沒有能力有沒有能力去找出這異常的現象我想我們商售的程序會根據這個收集做一些商情的訪查包括這個他們的報價的資料跟一些採購的價格我們會加以分析然後我們根據這些相關的分析之後我們應該要有一個進一步的一個\n\n07:21.912 --> 07:22.497\n已就索根\n\n07:24.332 --> 07:51.793\n就這些筆價的這個就是說要相關的一些多管的這個商員進行一個筆價的一個程序我請教黃師長或者主席許長或者是採購師採購師這邊因為軍事裝備的採購你像我們最近要送到台灣的M1A2T它就一個Tmodel它後面多了一個電源箱就是它要有一些型它不是每一個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣\n\n07:53.514 --> 08:15.907\n我現在的問題其實很簡單軍售部分美方向我們負責他要去做集合嘛那我們商售的部分其實量也不小那商售的部分我們國防部有沒有能力做相關的集合查核是跟委員報告其實我們商購只要簽約以後我們要求的就是一定要履約督導一定要防場查驗\n\n08:16.647 --> 08:39.830\n那包含防火產業包含它的製程包含它生產的這個它的用料是怎麼來的整個這個相關的我們都要去查驗就合約會要求他要對我們負責對我們透明嗎因為這是我們自己要來做那我你還是沒有回答問題就是以這是雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況如果發生在商購上我們會不會發現\n\n08:48.529 --> 09:02.776\n我坦白講我是期待因為美國司法部也許這個案子整個到一個段落之後他會公佈所有report我第一個出於國家利益的好奇我們應該去了解他到底怎麼查出來的\n\n09:04.529 --> 09:23.456\n他怎麼去找出這個洞來的那我們國家有沒有類似的情形我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛所以部長我這一趴要問的意思就是說軍購當然我們就要求美方我們是buyer但商購的不能變成我方的採購我方的集合主計相關要負相關的責任\n\n09:24.696 --> 09:38.808\n那我們在我們現有的制度上有沒有能力去做出查出這樣的案子或者有沒有不足的地方我們可以補強的他山之石我們可以來借用嗎部長對這事情怎麼看法\n\n09:40.209 --> 09:57.037\n我想我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來相關的這個成本的分析是重要的這是第一點那第二點就是說同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商員來進行比價的這樣的一個程序\n\n09:57.717 --> 09:59.719\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n10:19.219 --> 10:40.913\n商購或我們國軍採購不管是軍備局或各單位的採購齁這個集合方式的部分這個SOP的流程這應該不算機密嘛齁這應該可以揭露讓我們知道就你們怎麼去查核這些事情的那個流程啊我不是講內容你們怎麼去查核這個流程的我們才能從你的流程當中站在國會監督的角色我們可以去看哪一個步驟\n\n10:41.914 --> 11:08.227\n可能這個部分要強化一點或哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到這個流程能不能公布給我們知道我們來進行這樣子的一個流程的檢討然後再跟委員做個報告那我接下來一樣跟著這個問題問就是我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業所以本席在我印象第9屆第10屆我們通過了國防產業促進條例那國防產業促進條例之後我們就有各種品項\n\n11:09.608 --> 11:10.869\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報\n\n11:33.027 --> 11:57.515\n尤其是美製的比較早期的武器裝備有原廠授權的大概都不用不用再討論了一定是用他的那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的你說他叫A貨或者那就是他有能力做出來也經過驗證了這兩個在採購上順序的優到底是美國原廠授權優先還是國內產業驗證優先哪一個優先\n\n12:02.133 --> 12:13.879\n我最後提醒就是說我們有一些比方說我不舉特定品項了有一些早期美方供應我們的裝備以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權打死了就是他優先沒有話講因為他原廠的嘛可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後\n\n12:31.167 --> 12:49.816\n本土的廠商經過驗證證明這能力的話他取得了認證資格這個是有法律地位的過去那個原廠授權的那個是默契行為所以這個李院長這樣講是對的就是說在法律上這個是優先但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好\n\n12:50.456 --> 13:19.365\n而且經過市場的競爭我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下我們國內現在還用的也許要是早期的已經有些裝備零組件台灣廠商在做了但美國原廠也有還在做我們也應該要求美國原廠說你也來申請驗證你懂我意思嗎尊重我們國家法律除非他放棄了這塊市場他不要了我們的飛機啊我們的戰車啦我們有很多都是\n\n13:21.126 --> 13:38.298\n對世界上來看他是比較早期的東西所以零組件現在有偽製廠商會做但是美國的原廠或者歐洲原廠他也還會做所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土產商驗證優先原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候\n\n13:39.019 --> 13:39.039\n好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.469,"end":23.821,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長請副部長另外我們戰規司黃司長部長我還是要問一下雷神的案子但是基於國家的利益台美的默契以及我們相關保密的要求如果涉及機密不宜對外公開的那你可以直接表達這不宜回答這個我會尊重"},{"start":24.961,"end":47.863,"text":"畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況那因為雷神是很重要的系統商在世界各國包含美國自己本土包含台灣合作的項目非常多涵蓋了水面下水面以及陸地空中很多的項目所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象"},{"start":48.524,"end":74.996,"text":"那這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意台價或者以美國司法部所講的涉及的相關不當的詐欺的情形那我以下詢問的題目我是希望透過你的回答讓國人瞭解發生什麼事我再強調一次不宜公開的不適合講的部長就直接說這個不適合公開本席會予以尊重第一個這一個所謂的台價"},{"start":76.297,"end":79.32,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":98.556,"end":120.295,"text":"所以這個案子就這個案子雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎我們是跟美國政府簽約軍售案就所以我們是跟美國政府簽約美國政府跟雷神簽約所以美國政府本身也美國陸軍也是採購方那他可能有好幾個國家一起在這合約裡面我這樣詮釋對還是錯"},{"start":123.282,"end":148.696,"text":"所以他這個是一個三判關係應該是A跟B簽約B跟C簽約我們的對口就是美國政府所以美國政府要對我們互完全的對所以我們不是直接對雷神至少這一件案子上面我們軍售案都不是直接對廠商對廠商是商售我待會會問一下商售的防備機制接下來"},{"start":149.884,"end":159.346,"text":"就目前美國司法部通知我國這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統還是不便回答"},{"start":161.038,"end":183.823,"text":"我想這個部分就不變回答。不變回答。因為這個跟我後面問的有關係。那我看媒體有報導,你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查是從2013年溯源找到了跟台灣有相關的情形。所以是2013年開始,但是我們不能說是哪個年度。他說2013年開始的相關的案子。"},{"start":186.526,"end":209.491,"text":"我剛在機密專報裡面報告了我想我就不再OK好那美方主動告知我們因為你剛才講的這是一個軍售漢所以美國必須對品質及和各方面履約條件要負完全的責任我們就是buyer他要向我們負責嘛這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛那我請教部長就是說就軍售案"},{"start":210.745,"end":229.878,"text":"在這個事件當中因為我們用莫菲定律來講如果你有一個兩個三個四個或者一個你有台價的情形我們有沒有去回顧至少雷神相關的案子的軍售案有沒有類似的情形第一個我們有沒有這樣做第二個是我們有沒有能力這樣做"},{"start":230.939,"end":247.672,"text":"我想要美國的政府會來全面的來展開所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子有沒有類似的詐數?美方應該會進行我們有沒有要求?"},{"start":248.353,"end":277.654,"text":"呃..."},{"start":280.82,"end":305.727,"text":"沒有能力就沒有能力因為我跟你買東西像我去買一台車車商交給我了我根本無法預先知道你在車廠掉了三個零件或者是液零了沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情因為我是買方嘛就好像我們去跟經銷商買了一輛車子它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到我現在只是詢問在軍售案上有關軍售這個模式"},{"start":306.727,"end":324.233,"text":"台灣有沒有能力注意、處理或了解到異常現象?沒有辦法。是沒有辦法的?沒有辦法。所以要靠美方,就是我們簽約方,他還去做相關的集合?我們大概應該是只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析啦。這個是我們能夠..."},{"start":326.034,"end":354.876,"text":"軍事裝備與日俱新他換了一個裝一個裡面的零件就告訴你這是model 2你很難去做比價啦所以美國他有多層的一個美國的audit美國的這一個機盒其實坦白講蠻嚴謹的啦對他從成本的這個這個審核那就有好幾層的機制那後來到後面的這個機盒的機制履約過程當中然後他也也有也有都有嚴密的保管"},{"start":355.549,"end":381.931,"text":"有關這一次雷神這個案子是美國國防部就軍方集合主動查出來的對美國的是美國軍方查出來的不是司法部調查出來的嘛對是主計局嘛審計局他等於主計人他做audit的時候查到了嘛然後他查到之後他往前溯源到2013年去查各國相關的情形所以美國的集合制度是能夠找出這樣的問題"},{"start":382.972,"end":410.96,"text":"好那我現在問了因為軍售是美方採購向我們負責那他自己要跟簽約方負責他要去做audition這是他的問題那我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售商售就沒有經過美國政府了當然我期待我們的主計單位我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計審計單位一樣的堅實一樣可以把它review可以把它找出來我現在請教商售的部分我方如何做審計"},{"start":412.284,"end":439.94,"text":"有沒有能力有沒有能力去找出這異常的現象我想我們商售的程序會根據這個收集做一些商情的訪查包括這個他們的報價的資料跟一些採購的價格我們會加以分析然後我們根據這些相關的分析之後我們應該要有一個進一步的一個"},{"start":441.912,"end":442.497,"text":"已就索根"},{"start":444.332,"end":471.793,"text":"就這些筆價的這個就是說要相關的一些多管的這個商員進行一個筆價的一個程序我請教黃師長或者主席許長或者是採購師採購師這邊因為軍事裝備的採購你像我們最近要送到台灣的M1A2T它就一個T model它後面多了一個電源箱就是它要有一些型它不是每一個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣"},{"start":473.514,"end":495.907,"text":"我現在的問題其實很簡單軍售部分美方向我們負責他要去做集合嘛那我們商售的部分其實量也不小那商售的部分我們國防部有沒有能力做相關的集合查核是跟委員報告其實我們商購只要簽約以後我們要求的就是一定要履約督導一定要防場查驗"},{"start":496.647,"end":519.83,"text":"那包含防火產業包含它的製程包含它生產的這個它的用料是怎麼來的整個這個相關的我們都要去查驗就合約會要求他要對我們負責對我們透明嗎因為這是我們自己要來做那我你還是沒有回答問題就是以這是雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況如果發生在商購上我們會不會發現"},{"start":528.529,"end":542.776,"text":"我坦白講我是期待因為美國司法部也許這個案子整個到一個段落之後他會公佈所有report我第一個出於國家利益的好奇我們應該去了解他到底怎麼查出來的"},{"start":544.529,"end":563.456,"text":"他怎麼去找出這個洞來的那我們國家有沒有類似的情形我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛所以部長我這一趴要問的意思就是說軍購當然我們就要求美方我們是buyer但商購的不能變成我方的採購我方的集合主計相關要負相關的責任"},{"start":564.696,"end":578.808,"text":"那我們在我們現有的制度上有沒有能力去做出查出這樣的案子或者有沒有不足的地方我們可以補強的他山之石我們可以來借用嗎部長對這事情怎麼看法"},{"start":580.209,"end":597.037,"text":"我想我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來相關的這個成本的分析是重要的這是第一點那第二點就是說同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商員來進行比價的這樣的一個程序"},{"start":597.717,"end":599.719,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":619.219,"end":640.913,"text":"商購或我們國軍採購不管是軍備局或各單位的採購齁這個集合方式的部分這個SOP的流程這應該不算機密嘛齁這應該可以揭露讓我們知道就你們怎麼去查核這些事情的那個流程啊我不是講內容你們怎麼去查核這個流程的我們才能從你的流程當中站在國會監督的角色我們可以去看哪一個步驟"},{"start":641.914,"end":668.227,"text":"可能這個部分要強化一點或哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到這個流程能不能公布給我們知道我們來進行這樣子的一個流程的檢討然後再跟委員做個報告那我接下來一樣跟著這個問題問就是我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業所以本席在我印象第9屆第10屆我們通過了國防產業促進條例那國防產業促進條例之後我們就有各種品項"},{"start":669.608,"end":670.869,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報"},{"start":693.027,"end":717.515,"text":"尤其是美製的比較早期的武器裝備有原廠授權的大概都不用不用再討論了一定是用他的那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的你說他叫A貨或者那就是他有能力做出來也經過驗證了這兩個在採購上順序的優到底是美國原廠授權優先還是國內產業驗證優先哪一個優先"},{"start":722.133,"end":733.879,"text":"我最後提醒就是說我們有一些比方說我不舉特定品項了有一些早期美方供應我們的裝備以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權打死了就是他優先沒有話講因為他原廠的嘛可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後"},{"start":751.167,"end":769.816,"text":"本土的廠商經過驗證證明這能力的話他取得了認證資格這個是有法律地位的過去那個原廠授權的那個是默契行為所以這個李院長這樣講是對的就是說在法律上這個是優先但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好"},{"start":770.456,"end":799.365,"text":"而且經過市場的競爭我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下我們國內現在還用的也許要是早期的已經有些裝備零組件台灣廠商在做了但美國原廠也有還在做我們也應該要求美國原廠說你也來申請驗證你懂我意思嗎尊重我們國家法律除非他放棄了這塊市場他不要了我們的飛機啊我們的戰車啦我們有很多都是"},{"start":801.126,"end":818.298,"text":"對世界上來看他是比較早期的東西所以零組件現在有偽製廠商會做但是美國的原廠或者歐洲原廠他也還會做所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土產商驗證優先原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候"},{"start":819.019,"end":819.039,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:51:53 - 11:05:59","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155134,"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時51分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長及戰規司黃司長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我還是要問一下雷神的案子，但是基於國家的利益、臺美的默契，以及我們相關保密的要求，如果涉及機密，不宜對外公開的，你可以直接表達「這不宜回答」，這個我會尊重，因為畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況。因為雷神是很重要的系統商，在世界各國，包含美國自己本土、包含臺灣，合作的項目非常多，涵蓋了水面下、水面以及陸地、空中很多的項目，所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象。這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意抬價，或者以美國司法部所講的涉及相關不當詐欺的情形，我以下詢問的題目，我是希望透過你的回答讓國人了解發生什麼事。我再強調一次，不宜公開的、不適合講的，部長就直接說「這個不適合公開」，本席會予以尊重。第一個，這個所謂的抬價，溢領了軍購款的事件，受害的是只有臺灣，還是有其他國家？"],["顧部長立雄：有其他國家，也包括美國本身。"],["王委員定宇：所以受害者包含美國本身，包含了相關簽約的國家，臺灣是其中之一？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：那我就這個問題就要詢問了，這一個案子，就這個案子，雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是跟美國政府簽約，軍售案，就是FMS……"],["王委員定宇：所以我們是跟美國政府簽約，然後美國政府跟雷神簽約，所以美國政府本身，美國陸軍也是採購方，那它可能有好幾個國家一起在這個合約裡面，我這樣詮釋對還是錯？"],["顧部長立雄：是，這是一個三方關係，我們並沒有……"],["王委員定宇：應該是A跟B簽約，B跟C簽約嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們的對口就是美國政府，所以美國政府要對我們負完全的責任。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們不是直接對雷神，至少在這一件案子上面。"],["顧部長立雄：我們的軍售案都不是直接對廠商。"],["王委員定宇：那是軍售；對廠商的則是商售，我待會會問一下商售的防弊機制。","接下來就是目前美國司法部通知我國的這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統，還是不便回答？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個部分就不便回答了。"],["王委員定宇：因為這個跟我後面問的有關係，我看媒體有報導，你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查，是從2013年溯源找到了跟臺灣有相關的情形，所以是2013年開始，但是我們不能說是哪個年度，而它說是2013年開始有相關的案子，這樣沒錯嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛在機密專報裡面報告了，我想我就不再重複了。"],["王委員定宇：OK，好。這是美方主動告知我們，因為你剛才講的，這是一個軍售案，所以美國必須對品質、稽核、履約條件等各方面要負完全的責任，我們就是buyer，它要向我們負責，這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛！我請教部長，就軍售案、在這個事件當中，我們用墨菲定律來講，如果有一個、二個、三個或四個有抬價的情形發生，則我們有沒有去回顧、review一下，至少與雷神相關的案子的軍售案中有沒有類似的情形？第一個，我們有沒有這樣做？第二個，我們有沒有能力這樣做？"],["顧部長立雄：我想美國的政府會全面來展開。"],["王委員定宇：所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子，有沒有類似的詐術？"],["顧部長立雄：美方應該會進行。"],["王委員定宇：我們有沒有要求？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有提出要求。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為我們涉及的項目有這麼多，你有兩、三個或是七、八個騙了我們或者溢領了價款，我當然會要求全部要review一次，這才是對納稅人負責，而我方就軍售案，不管是黃司長或部長，就你的了解，我們臺灣有沒有能力進行相關的查核或者預先注意到異常的現象？沒有能力就沒有能力，因為我跟你買東西，就像我去買一臺車，車商交給我了，我根本就無法預先知道你在車廠掉了3個零件或者是溢領了，沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情，因為我是買方嘛！就好像我們跟經銷商買了一輛車子，它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到的，我現在只是要詢問，在軍售案上、有關軍售的這個模式，臺灣有沒有能力注意、處理或了解到異常現象？"],["黃司長文啓：沒有辦法。"],["王委員定宇：所以要靠美方，也就是我們簽約方，它要去做相關的稽核。"],["顧部長立雄：我們大概只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析，這個是我們能夠做的。"],["王委員定宇：但是因為軍事裝備與日俱新，它換了裡面的一個零件，就告訴你這是model 2，所以你很難去做比價。"],["顧部長立雄：所以美國它有多層的……"],["王委員定宇：美國的audit、美國的稽核，坦白講還滿嚴謹的啦！"],["顧部長立雄：對，它從成本的審核就有好幾層的機制，然後後面稽核的機制，包括在履約過程當中，它也都有嚴密的把關。"],["王委員定宇：有關這一次雷神的案子，是美國國防部、軍方稽核時主動查出來的？"],["顧部長立雄：對，美國的……"],["王委員定宇：是美國軍方查出來的，不是司法部調查出來的？"],["黃司長文啓：國防合約審計局查出來的。"],["王委員定宇：對，是主計局嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：審計局。"],["王委員定宇：等於主計單位做audit的時候查到的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：他查到之後，往前溯源到2013年，包括去查了各國相關的情形，所以美國的稽核制度是能夠找出這樣的問題。好，我現在要問了，因為軍售是跟美方採購，它要向我們負責，它自己要跟簽約方負責，它要去做audition，這是它的問題，而我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售，商售就沒有經過美國政府了。當然我期待我們的主計單位、我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計、審計單位一樣的堅實、一樣可以把它review、一樣可以把它找出來，我現在要請教商售的部分，請問我方如何做審計？有沒有能力找出這些異常的現象？"],["顧部長立雄：我們商售的程序會根據所蒐集到的來做一些商情的訪查，包括他們報價的資料跟一些採購的價格，我們會加以分析，然後我們根據這些相關的分析，之後我們應該會進一步的就相關一些多管的商源進行一個比價的程序。"],["王委員定宇：我請教黃司長、主計局長或者是採購司，因為軍事裝備的採購，像最近要送到臺灣的M1A2T，它就有個T model，後面多了一個電源箱，就是它有一些型號，並不是每個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣。我現在的問題很簡單，軍售部分美方向我們負責，它要去做稽核，我們商售的部分其實量也不小，在商售的部分，國防部有沒有能力做相關的稽核查核？"],["趙主任亞平：跟委員報告，其實我們商購只要簽約以後，我們要求的就是一定要履約督導，一定要訪廠查驗，訪廠查驗包含它的製程，包含它生產的用料是怎麼來的，整個相關的我們都要去查驗。"],["王委員定宇：就是合約會要求它要對我們負責，對我們透明嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：是，這是定規。"],["王委員定宇：因為這個是我們自己要來做。你還是沒有回答問題，就是以這次雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況，如果發生在商購上，我們會不會發現？"],["趙主任亞平：我們基本上不會去查它的帳務，但是有時候有些比較複雜的案子我們都有會計師和律師來參與。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講我是期待，因為美國司法部也許在這個案子到一個段落之後它會公布所有report，第一個，出於國家利益的好奇，我們應該去瞭解它到底怎麼查出來的，它怎麼去找出這個洞來的？我們國家有沒有類似的情形？我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛！所以部長，我這一個part要問的意思是說，軍購當然我們就要求美方，我們是buyer，但商購的部分變成我方的採購，我方的稽核、主計要負相關的責任，我們在現有的制度上有沒有能力去查出這樣的案子，或者有沒有不足的地方可以補強的？它山之石，我們可以來借用嘛！部長，你對這件事情有什麼看法？"],["顧部長立雄：我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來，相關的成本分析是重要的，這是第一點。第二點，同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商源來進行比價的程序，然後到了履約的過程當中，我們會同審監單位來做審查，加強稽核內控的機制，我們可能也要進一步會同律師和會計師來協助進行查核。"],["王委員定宇：部長，有關我們商購或者國軍採購，不管是軍備局或各單位的採購，稽核方式的部分，這個SOP的流程應該不算機密嘛？這應該可以揭露讓我們知道，就是你們怎麼去查核這些事情的，那個流程啦！我不是講內容，你們怎麼去查核的這個流程，這樣我們才能從你的流程當中，站在國會監督的角色，我們可以去看哪一個步驟可能要強化一點，或者哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到，這個流程能不能公布給我們知道？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們來進行流程的檢討，然後再向委員做個報告。"],["王委員定宇：接下來一樣跟著這個問題問，我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業，所以我印象中是在第9屆還是第10屆，我們通過了國防產業發展條例嘛！之後我們就有各種品項認證，認證之後它就成為合格供應商，而且我們的採購流程是國內有認證的，經過軍備局我們相關單位認證的，優先採購，是邀標喔！如果它沒有或者它不投標，才能公開招標，我們有一個流程去扶植國內的產業。","我現在問一個問題，在過去我們國軍採購的時候，尤其是美製的、比較早期的武器裝備，有原廠授權的大概都不用再討論了，一定是用它的。那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的，你說它叫A貨或怎麼樣，反正他就是有能力做出來，也經過驗證了，這兩個在採購上的順序，到底是美國原廠授權優先，還是國內產業驗證優先？哪一個優先？"],["顧部長立雄：中科院來回答一下。"],["李院長世強：報告委員，有產發條例之後，只要是通過我們產發驗證……"],["王委員定宇：驗證優先？"],["李院長世強：然後經過我們驗證性質符合的，是以我們國內為優先。"],["王委員定宇：好，我最後提醒，我不舉特定品項，比方說有一些早期美方供應的裝備，以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權，打死了就是它優先，沒有話講，因為它是原廠的嘛！可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後，本土廠商經過驗證證明這個能力的話，它取得了認證資格，這個是有法律地位的。"],["李院長世強：有。"],["王委員定宇：過去原廠授權的，那個是默契行為，所以李院長這樣講是對的，在法律位階上這個是優先，但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好的裝備，而且經過市場的競爭，我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛！所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下國內現在還用的，也許它是早期的，有一些裝備、零組件臺灣廠商已經在做了，但是美國原廠也還在做，我們也應該要求美國原廠來申請驗證，你懂我意思嗎？尊重我們國家法律，除非它要放棄了，這塊市場它不要了。","像我們的飛機、我們的戰車，我們有很多裝備在世界上來看都是比較早期的東西，所以零組件現在有委製廠商會做，但是美國原廠或者歐洲原廠也還會做，所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土廠商驗證優先，原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候，這樣也不好。我們是希望扶植國內廠商，但是國際的廠商願意進入這個市場，你也來臺灣投資，你也來這邊驗證，驗證過了，越多人競爭買方才會越得利，我的邏輯是這樣子。我很怕只有單一本土廠商有能力供應的時候，那它壟斷了，你的議價能力就比較低，我以上做這個建議，讓部長做參考。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會進行相關的比價。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，部長請回。等一下林楚茵委員質詢完畢後，先休息5分鐘。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}