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\"start\": 773.511, \"end\": 773.678, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"玲\", \"start\": 773.678, \"end\": 773.699, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,973 --> 00:00:12,617\n有請黃秘書長黃秘書長還有部長部長委員好部長秘書長您好這次大法官做成了死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決那其實也引起了非常多的討論那麼固然大法官沒有這個宣告死刑為違憲這個說實在的話還\n\n2\n00:00:34,970 --> 00:00:55,111\n出乎我的意料之外我想當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面以及看到所有的法庭之友的辯論書法庭之友的意見書當然除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑核限還有法務部的立場也是贊成死刑核限之外全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的\n\n3\n00:00:57,353 --> 00:01:22,991\n那麼做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決這個對於這個法學界來看這件事情當然會認為他就是實際上看起來是死刑是合憲但是設下了重重的關卡那其實判決的效果已經達成了實質的廢死這個部分來說的話也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的\n\n4\n00:01:25,333 --> 00:01:48,215\n要設置最嚴密最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件呢那麼感到疑惑而且也認為說這些大法官所談的條件難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎沒有討論過嗎我想請問秘書長我們知道其實司法院\n\n5\n00:01:49,787 --> 00:01:52,652\n請問你們到底修了些什麼?你們有針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎?\n\n6\n00:02:04,247 --> 00:02:30,580\n因為之前並還沒有這個憲判但是之前有那個兩公約的兩公約的這個這個像公正公約的這個要求像那個要情節最嚴重的這個犯罪在兩公約裡面就有那那個程序其實在最高法院本身最高法院本身從101年開始其實他們本身就針對了死刑案件的這個上訴那他已經要求說\n\n7\n00:02:31,340 --> 00:02:32,361\n譬如說何怡婷的一致決\n\n8\n00:02:56,189 --> 00:02:59,232\n因為大法官的要求是說在三審的法院都要有一制決請問之前的評議部都還保留著嗎?\n\n9\n00:03:26,147 --> 00:03:30,472\n我們現在正在查因為我們的評議部依照那個檔案管理是有目前的規定是保留10年所以代表可能之前的都已經銷毀了好沒關係我們先要看一下這個剛剛其實秘書長有講的司法院其實曾經主導過這個一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的這個修法\n\n10\n00:03:46,892 --> 00:03:54,062\n本席也懷也是高度質疑你們在101年的時候當時司法周刊上面就已經有講就是你們曾經有修這個《刑事訴訟法》第388條將強制辯護延伸到第三審落實被告的辯護依賴權\n\n11\n00:04:03,135 --> 00:04:05,257\n那麼接下來在110年最近這前三年的時候也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法要經濟人權保障將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍請問你們過去都有討論可是為什麼都沒有提出修法\n\n12\n00:04:20,410 --> 00:04:38,013\n跟委員報告齁因為實際上面當然我們正在在是不是因為食物界反彈沒有沒有因為食物上面就是這樣在做的都有這樣在做所以根本沒有修法的必要對那只是說大法官這一次認為說食物上這個做法應該要再進一步的這個明文好那以前最高法院就是這樣一直在在\n\n13\n00:04:38,633 --> 00:04:59,342\n所以就是很多時候在做的根本不需要修法嘛那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法是因為他勸你們勸不動所以呢乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決直接在裡面寫清楚然後要求你們要修法是不是如此我高度的懷疑那接下來我想要講的就是你們在這次的報告裡面你們提出來未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名但是還有其他的罪啊\n\n14\n00:05:03,052 --> 00:05:13,724\n在我們特別法還有在這個刑法裡面其實光是涉及到就是光是與這個罪重本行是死刑的條文就有30幾條就有30幾種條文吧涉及88種的死刑罪名\n\n15\n00:05:19,813 --> 00:05:26,536\n委員報告其他都不處理嗎沒有那因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的你講得很好大法官只能針對釋憲的標的是不是可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎\n\n16\n00:05:43,427 --> 00:05:47,631\n沒有吧,我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是數位裁判啊他已經依託了這個人民所提出來的釋憲的理由\n\n17\n00:05:54,294 --> 00:06:09,725\n本席認為這是只能夠針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序其他的都不重要了其他的條文好像也已經有在申請釋憲另外的案子等到整個釋憲完了之後再做決定所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的\n\n18\n00:06:14,788 --> 00:06:14,849\n姜蕾娜議員\n\n19\n00:06:31,331 --> 00:06:39,099\n那麼這個是大法官這次要求同時在偵查訊問的過程當中也要求要引進強制辯護制度為什麼當時刑事訴訟法的31條只說在審判中需要強制辯護而沒有講到說在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎\n\n20\n00:06:53,103 --> 00:06:55,745\n現在的刑事訴訟法的31條為什麼只要求在審判中才要講強制辯護\n\n21\n00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:14,465\n他說這一次那個憲判的理由裡面有寫為了讓那個效率如果說有些時候會耽擱這個偵查的這個事項我要告訴我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的憲法訴訟法31條的立法理由裡面其實講得很清楚因為在整個的偵查詢問過程當中還沒有起訴起訴的條文也還不確定是不是這個最重以這個最重本性死刑來起訴\n\n22\n00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,763\n所以就是說如果說你在偵查詢問的過程當中就已經要引進這個強制辯護人的制度然後依照大法官的見解這個如果說當事人他自己不騙律師叫這個請法服的律師去幫忙做這個義務辯護那請問法服的這個律師的費用是誰出?\n\n23\n00:07:56,478 --> 00:08:05,088\n法服的律師當然法服有法服但法服的預算是由我們司法院捐助的是所以你們司法院未來準備要增編一兩億的錢嗎\n\n24\n00:08:07,177 --> 00:08:13,400\n所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的去計算在過去這一年當中有多少可能因為依職權依起訴告發等等的而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的\n\n25\n00:08:29,426 --> 00:08:34,389\n因為其實原來法服針對那個重罪的偵查中培訓本來就已經有這個計畫是但是案件數不多但是現在因為當時是在審判嘛你現在已經進入到這個偵查詢問的過程當中本席這個有幫你們稍微算了一下齁那依照112年你們自己法務部的統計資料裡面這個顯示那麼事實上這個以這個最重本席死刑的偵查起訴案件是大概252件\n\n26\n00:08:56,443 --> 00:08:58,105\n但是呢如果說這252件的以死刑起訴的這個罪名其實那都還只是很少量我們回顧啊我們以這個傷害罪在去年大概有三萬兩千件那事實上有可能\n\n27\n00:09:11,903 --> 00:09:15,686\n是更多因為這個可能人家當時也是告發或是依職權認為說可能是有死刑的這樣一個情況可是最後這個轉回變成只有三萬兩千件所以我們是認為說有可能未來會有六千個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑這個死刑的嫌疑犯\n\n28\n00:09:34,359 --> 00:09:46,751\n需要有訴訟辯護人的那如果說以這個死刑的嫌疑犯他所要聘請的法服的律師作為訴訟的這個作為訴訟辯護人他的費用大概一個階段是兩萬五千塊所以你司法院你至少要編一億五千萬那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢\n\n29\n00:09:58,599 --> 00:10:07,646\n去幫這些死刑的這個嫌疑犯去幫他們付律師費用這筆錢為什麼不拿來去幫那個被告家屬還更好我要講其實大法官所做的這號憲法裁判他其實已經造成這實務界運作的一個很大的問題不僅是法官在審理的時候那麼這個我其實我有想看\n\n30\n00:10:26,995 --> 00:10:53,506\n幾位實務界出身的大法官他們都非常不能夠認同這次在憲法判決的主文裡面特別就這個精神障礙在救審能力在救審的時候還有執行的時候也認為以後不能判死刑這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了這其實引起很大的爭議同時在實務運作面、層面上面\n\n31\n00:10:55,247 --> 00:11:23,899\n請問部長這會不會未來造成檢察官在偵查詢問的時候的一個困難必須等到這個律師在場的時候才能問因為偵查中本來就是要預知要不要選任辯護人那如果要等待的時間當然要扣除那些的時間但是如果說他不請我們依照憲判的意思我們還是要問像司法檢察官都要問他說我們會通知法府來選任那這再指派\n\n32\n00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:46,556\n所以這中間的時間就會拖長了嘛對這個部分其實本席作為立法委員然後我之前我也是法學教授所以我很在乎就實務上運作的這個情況那麼我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話也要提出一個能夠符合實務且能夠接受的一個修法\n\n33\n00:11:47,436 --> 00:12:15,361\n更何況我其實我是感到很遺憾的事也是覺得很不能夠接受的就是如果說司法院從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要為什麼你們自己都不修法然後司法院院長不是還這個主持或是幾個大法官也主持司法也主持這個刑事訴訟法的研修會議該做都沒有做然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判\n\n34\n00:12:16,380 --> 00:12:22,461\n然後以止氣使的來命令大家來修法最後呢累死了一堆小法官\n\n35\n00:12:23,646 --> 00:12:23,666\n好,謝謝\n\n36\n00:12:53,511 --> 00:12:53,699\n謝惠玲\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6973\t12617\t有請黃秘書長黃秘書長還有部長部長委員好部長秘書長您好這次大法官做成了死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決那其實也引起了非常多的討論那麼固然大法官沒有這個宣告死刑為違憲這個說實在的話還\n34970\t55111\t出乎我的意料之外我想當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面以及看到所有的法庭之友的辯論書法庭之友的意見書當然除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑核限還有法務部的立場也是贊成死刑核限之外全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的\n57353\t82991\t那麼做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決這個對於這個法學界來看這件事情當然會認為他就是實際上看起來是死刑是合憲但是設下了重重的關卡那其實判決的效果已經達成了實質的廢死這個部分來說的話也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的\n85333\t108215\t要設置最嚴密最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件呢那麼感到疑惑而且也認為說這些大法官所談的條件難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎沒有討論過嗎我想請問秘書長我們知道其實司法院\n109787\t112652\t請問你們到底修了些什麼?你們有針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎?\n124247\t150580\t因為之前並還沒有這個憲判但是之前有那個兩公約的兩公約的這個這個像公正公約的這個要求像那個要情節最嚴重的這個犯罪在兩公約裡面就有那那個程序其實在最高法院本身最高法院本身從101年開始其實他們本身就針對了死刑案件的這個上訴那他已經要求說\n151340\t152361\t譬如說何怡婷的一致決\n176189\t179232\t因為大法官的要求是說在三審的法院都要有一制決請問之前的評議部都還保留著嗎?\n206147\t210472\t我們現在正在查因為我們的評議部依照那個檔案管理是有目前的規定是保留10年所以代表可能之前的都已經銷毀了好沒關係我們先要看一下這個剛剛其實秘書長有講的司法院其實曾經主導過這個一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的這個修法\n226892\t234062\t本席也懷也是高度質疑你們在101年的時候當時司法周刊上面就已經有講就是你們曾經有修這個《刑事訴訟法》第388條將強制辯護延伸到第三審落實被告的辯護依賴權\n243135\t245257\t那麼接下來在110年最近這前三年的時候也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法要經濟人權保障將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍請問你們過去都有討論可是為什麼都沒有提出修法\n260410\t278013\t跟委員報告齁因為實際上面當然我們正在在是不是因為食物界反彈沒有沒有因為食物上面就是這樣在做的都有這樣在做所以根本沒有修法的必要對那只是說大法官這一次認為說食物上這個做法應該要再進一步的這個明文好那以前最高法院就是這樣一直在在\n278633\t299342\t所以就是很多時候在做的根本不需要修法嘛那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法是因為他勸你們勸不動所以呢乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決直接在裡面寫清楚然後要求你們要修法是不是如此我高度的懷疑那接下來我想要講的就是你們在這次的報告裡面你們提出來未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名但是還有其他的罪啊\n303052\t313724\t在我們特別法還有在這個刑法裡面其實光是涉及到就是光是與這個罪重本行是死刑的條文就有30幾條就有30幾種條文吧涉及88種的死刑罪名\n319813\t326536\t委員報告 其他都不處理嗎沒有 那因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的你講得很好 大法官只能針對釋憲的標的 是不是可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎\n343427\t347631\t沒有吧,我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是數位裁判啊他已經依託了這個人民所提出來的釋憲的理由\n354294\t369725\t本席認為這是只能夠針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序其他的都不重要了其他的條文好像也已經有在申請釋憲另外的案子等到整個釋憲完了之後再做決定所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的\n374788\t374849\t姜蕾娜議員\n391331\t399099\t那麼這個是大法官這次要求同時在偵查訊問的過程當中也要求要引進強制辯護制度為什麼當時刑事訴訟法的31條只說在審判中需要強制辯護而沒有講到說在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎\n413103\t415745\t現在的刑事訴訟法的31條為什麼只要求在審判中才要講強制辯護\n428120\t434465\t他說這一次那個憲判的理由裡面有寫為了讓那個效率如果說有些時候會耽擱這個偵查的這個事項我要告訴我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的憲法訴訟法31條的立法理由裡面其實講得很清楚因為在整個的偵查詢問過程當中還沒有起訴起訴的條文也還不確定是不是這個最重以這個最重本性死刑來起訴\n455080\t458763\t所以就是說如果說你在偵查詢問的過程當中就已經要引進這個強制辯護人的制度然後依照大法官的見解這個如果說當事人他自己不騙律師叫這個請法服的律師去幫忙做這個義務辯護那請問法服的這個律師的費用是誰出?\n476478\t485088\t法服的律師當然法服有法服但法服的預算是由我們司法院捐助的是 所以你們司法院未來準備要增編一兩億的錢嗎\n487177\t493400\t所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的去計算在過去這一年當中有多少可能因為依職權依起訴告發等等的而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的\n509426\t514389\t因為其實原來法服針對那個重罪的偵查中培訓本來就已經有這個計畫是 但是案件數不多但是現在因為當時是在審判嘛你現在已經進入到這個偵查詢問的過程當中本席這個有幫你們稍微算了一下齁那依照112年你們自己法務部的統計資料裡面這個顯示那麼事實上這個以這個最重本席死刑的偵查起訴案件是大概252件\n536443\t538105\t但是呢如果說這252件的以死刑起訴的這個罪名其實那都還只是很少量我們回顧啊我們以這個傷害罪在去年大概有三萬兩千件那事實上有可能\n551903\t555686\t是更多因為這個可能人家當時也是告發或是依職權認為說可能是有死刑的這樣一個情況可是最後這個轉回變成只有三萬兩千件所以我們是認為說有可能未來會有六千個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑這個死刑的嫌疑犯\n574359\t586751\t需要有訴訟辯護人的那如果說以這個死刑的嫌疑犯他所要聘請的法服的律師作為訴訟的這個作為訴訟辯護人他的費用大概一個階段是兩萬五千塊所以你司法院你至少要編一億五千萬那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢\n598599\t607646\t去幫這些死刑的這個嫌疑犯去幫他們付律師費用這筆錢為什麼不拿來去幫那個被告家屬還更好我要講其實大法官所做的這號憲法裁判他其實已經造成這實務界運作的一個很大的問題不僅是法官在審理的時候那麼這個我其實我有想看\n626995\t653506\t幾位實務界出身的大法官他們都非常不能夠認同這次在憲法判決的主文裡面特別就這個精神障礙在救審能力在救審的時候還有執行的時候也認為以後不能判死刑這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了這其實引起很大的爭議同時在實務運作面、層面上面\n655247\t683899\t請問部長這會不會未來造成檢察官在偵查詢問的時候的一個困難必須等到這個律師在場的時候才能問因為偵查中本來就是要預知要不要選任辯護人那如果要等待的時間當然要扣除那些的時間但是如果說他不請我們依照憲判的意思我們還是要問像司法檢察官都要問他說我們會通知法府來選任那這再指派\n684159\t706556\t所以這中間的時間就會拖長了嘛對 這個部分其實本席作為立法委員然後我之前我也是法學教授所以我很在乎就實務上運作的這個情況那麼我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話也要提出一個能夠符合實務且能夠接受的一個修法\n707436\t735361\t更何況我其實我是感到很遺憾的事也是覺得很不能夠接受的就是如果說司法院從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要為什麼你們自己都不修法然後司法院院長不是還這個主持或是幾個大法官也主持司法也主持這個刑事訴訟法的研修會議該做都沒有做然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判\n736380\t742461\t然後以止氣使的來命令大家來修法最後呢累死了一堆小法官\n743646\t743666\t好,謝謝\n773511\t773699\t謝惠玲\n","txt":"有請黃秘書長黃秘書長還有部長部長委員好部長秘書長您好這次大法官做成了死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決那其實也引起了非常多的討論那麼固然大法官沒有這個宣告死刑為違憲這個說實在的話還\n出乎我的意料之外我想當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面以及看到所有的法庭之友的辯論書法庭之友的意見書當然除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑核限還有法務部的立場也是贊成死刑核限之外全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的\n那麼做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決這個對於這個法學界來看這件事情當然會認為他就是實際上看起來是死刑是合憲但是設下了重重的關卡那其實判決的效果已經達成了實質的廢死這個部分來說的話也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的\n要設置最嚴密最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件呢那麼感到疑惑而且也認為說這些大法官所談的條件難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎沒有討論過嗎我想請問秘書長我們知道其實司法院\n請問你們到底修了些什麼?你們有針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎?\n因為之前並還沒有這個憲判但是之前有那個兩公約的兩公約的這個這個像公正公約的這個要求像那個要情節最嚴重的這個犯罪在兩公約裡面就有那那個程序其實在最高法院本身最高法院本身從101年開始其實他們本身就針對了死刑案件的這個上訴那他已經要求說\n譬如說何怡婷的一致決\n因為大法官的要求是說在三審的法院都要有一制決請問之前的評議部都還保留著嗎?\n我們現在正在查因為我們的評議部依照那個檔案管理是有目前的規定是保留10年所以代表可能之前的都已經銷毀了好沒關係我們先要看一下這個剛剛其實秘書長有講的司法院其實曾經主導過這個一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的這個修法\n本席也懷也是高度質疑你們在101年的時候當時司法周刊上面就已經有講就是你們曾經有修這個《刑事訴訟法》第388條將強制辯護延伸到第三審落實被告的辯護依賴權\n那麼接下來在110年最近這前三年的時候也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法要經濟人權保障將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍請問你們過去都有討論可是為什麼都沒有提出修法\n跟委員報告齁因為實際上面當然我們正在在是不是因為食物界反彈沒有沒有因為食物上面就是這樣在做的都有這樣在做所以根本沒有修法的必要對那只是說大法官這一次認為說食物上這個做法應該要再進一步的這個明文好那以前最高法院就是這樣一直在在\n所以就是很多時候在做的根本不需要修法嘛那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法是因為他勸你們勸不動所以呢乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決直接在裡面寫清楚然後要求你們要修法是不是如此我高度的懷疑那接下來我想要講的就是你們在這次的報告裡面你們提出來未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名但是還有其他的罪啊\n在我們特別法還有在這個刑法裡面其實光是涉及到就是光是與這個罪重本行是死刑的條文就有30幾條就有30幾種條文吧涉及88種的死刑罪名\n委員報告 其他都不處理嗎沒有 那因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的你講得很好 大法官只能針對釋憲的標的 是不是可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎\n沒有吧,我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是數位裁判啊他已經依託了這個人民所提出來的釋憲的理由\n本席認為這是只能夠針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序其他的都不重要了其他的條文好像也已經有在申請釋憲另外的案子等到整個釋憲完了之後再做決定所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的\n姜蕾娜議員\n那麼這個是大法官這次要求同時在偵查訊問的過程當中也要求要引進強制辯護制度為什麼當時刑事訴訟法的31條只說在審判中需要強制辯護而沒有講到說在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎\n現在的刑事訴訟法的31條為什麼只要求在審判中才要講強制辯護\n他說這一次那個憲判的理由裡面有寫為了讓那個效率如果說有些時候會耽擱這個偵查的這個事項我要告訴我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的憲法訴訟法31條的立法理由裡面其實講得很清楚因為在整個的偵查詢問過程當中還沒有起訴起訴的條文也還不確定是不是這個最重以這個最重本性死刑來起訴\n所以就是說如果說你在偵查詢問的過程當中就已經要引進這個強制辯護人的制度然後依照大法官的見解這個如果說當事人他自己不騙律師叫這個請法服的律師去幫忙做這個義務辯護那請問法服的這個律師的費用是誰出?\n法服的律師當然法服有法服但法服的預算是由我們司法院捐助的是 所以你們司法院未來準備要增編一兩億的錢嗎\n所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的去計算在過去這一年當中有多少可能因為依職權依起訴告發等等的而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的\n因為其實原來法服針對那個重罪的偵查中培訓本來就已經有這個計畫是 但是案件數不多但是現在因為當時是在審判嘛你現在已經進入到這個偵查詢問的過程當中本席這個有幫你們稍微算了一下齁那依照112年你們自己法務部的統計資料裡面這個顯示那麼事實上這個以這個最重本席死刑的偵查起訴案件是大概252件\n但是呢如果說這252件的以死刑起訴的這個罪名其實那都還只是很少量我們回顧啊我們以這個傷害罪在去年大概有三萬兩千件那事實上有可能\n是更多因為這個可能人家當時也是告發或是依職權認為說可能是有死刑的這樣一個情況可是最後這個轉回變成只有三萬兩千件所以我們是認為說有可能未來會有六千個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑這個死刑的嫌疑犯\n需要有訴訟辯護人的那如果說以這個死刑的嫌疑犯他所要聘請的法服的律師作為訴訟的這個作為訴訟辯護人他的費用大概一個階段是兩萬五千塊所以你司法院你至少要編一億五千萬那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢\n去幫這些死刑的這個嫌疑犯去幫他們付律師費用這筆錢為什麼不拿來去幫那個被告家屬還更好我要講其實大法官所做的這號憲法裁判他其實已經造成這實務界運作的一個很大的問題不僅是法官在審理的時候那麼這個我其實我有想看\n幾位實務界出身的大法官他們都非常不能夠認同這次在憲法判決的主文裡面特別就這個精神障礙在救審能力在救審的時候還有執行的時候也認為以後不能判死刑這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了這其實引起很大的爭議同時在實務運作面、層面上面\n請問部長這會不會未來造成檢察官在偵查詢問的時候的一個困難必須等到這個律師在場的時候才能問因為偵查中本來就是要預知要不要選任辯護人那如果要等待的時間當然要扣除那些的時間但是如果說他不請我們依照憲判的意思我們還是要問像司法檢察官都要問他說我們會通知法府來選任那這再指派\n所以這中間的時間就會拖長了嘛對 這個部分其實本席作為立法委員然後我之前我也是法學教授所以我很在乎就實務上運作的這個情況那麼我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話也要提出一個能夠符合實務且能夠接受的一個修法\n更何況我其實我是感到很遺憾的事也是覺得很不能夠接受的就是如果說司法院從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要為什麼你們自己都不修法然後司法院院長不是還這個主持或是幾個大法官也主持司法也主持這個刑事訴訟法的研修會議該做都沒有做然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判\n然後以止氣使的來命令大家來修法最後呢累死了一堆小法官\n好,謝謝\n謝惠玲\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.973 --> 00:12.617\n有請黃秘書長黃秘書長還有部長部長委員好部長秘書長您好這次大法官做成了死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決那其實也引起了非常多的討論那麼固然大法官沒有這個宣告死刑為違憲這個說實在的話還\n\n00:34.970 --> 00:55.111\n出乎我的意料之外我想當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面以及看到所有的法庭之友的辯論書法庭之友的意見書當然除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑核限還有法務部的立場也是贊成死刑核限之外全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的\n\n00:57.353 --> 01:22.991\n那麼做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決這個對於這個法學界來看這件事情當然會認為他就是實際上看起來是死刑是合憲但是設下了重重的關卡那其實判決的效果已經達成了實質的廢死這個部分來說的話也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的\n\n01:25.333 --> 01:48.215\n要設置最嚴密最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件呢那麼感到疑惑而且也認為說這些大法官所談的條件難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎沒有討論過嗎我想請問秘書長我們知道其實司法院\n\n01:49.787 --> 01:52.652\n請問你們到底修了些什麼?你們有針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎?\n\n02:04.247 --> 02:30.580\n因為之前並還沒有這個憲判但是之前有那個兩公約的兩公約的這個這個像公正公約的這個要求像那個要情節最嚴重的這個犯罪在兩公約裡面就有那那個程序其實在最高法院本身最高法院本身從101年開始其實他們本身就針對了死刑案件的這個上訴那他已經要求說\n\n02:31.340 --> 02:32.361\n譬如說何怡婷的一致決\n\n02:56.189 --> 02:59.232\n因為大法官的要求是說在三審的法院都要有一制決請問之前的評議部都還保留著嗎?\n\n03:26.147 --> 03:30.472\n我們現在正在查因為我們的評議部依照那個檔案管理是有目前的規定是保留10年所以代表可能之前的都已經銷毀了好沒關係我們先要看一下這個剛剛其實秘書長有講的司法院其實曾經主導過這個一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的這個修法\n\n03:46.892 --> 03:54.062\n本席也懷也是高度質疑你們在101年的時候當時司法周刊上面就已經有講就是你們曾經有修這個《刑事訴訟法》第388條將強制辯護延伸到第三審落實被告的辯護依賴權\n\n04:03.135 --> 04:05.257\n那麼接下來在110年最近這前三年的時候也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法要經濟人權保障將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍請問你們過去都有討論可是為什麼都沒有提出修法\n\n04:20.410 --> 04:38.013\n跟委員報告齁因為實際上面當然我們正在在是不是因為食物界反彈沒有沒有因為食物上面就是這樣在做的都有這樣在做所以根本沒有修法的必要對那只是說大法官這一次認為說食物上這個做法應該要再進一步的這個明文好那以前最高法院就是這樣一直在在\n\n04:38.633 --> 04:59.342\n所以就是很多時候在做的根本不需要修法嘛那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法是因為他勸你們勸不動所以呢乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決直接在裡面寫清楚然後要求你們要修法是不是如此我高度的懷疑那接下來我想要講的就是你們在這次的報告裡面你們提出來未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名但是還有其他的罪啊\n\n05:03.052 --> 05:13.724\n在我們特別法還有在這個刑法裡面其實光是涉及到就是光是與這個罪重本行是死刑的條文就有30幾條就有30幾種條文吧涉及88種的死刑罪名\n\n05:19.813 --> 05:26.536\n委員報告其他都不處理嗎沒有那因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的你講得很好大法官只能針對釋憲的標的是不是可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎\n\n05:43.427 --> 05:47.631\n沒有吧,我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是數位裁判啊他已經依託了這個人民所提出來的釋憲的理由\n\n05:54.294 --> 06:09.725\n本席認為這是只能夠針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序其他的都不重要了其他的條文好像也已經有在申請釋憲另外的案子等到整個釋憲完了之後再做決定所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的\n\n06:14.788 --> 06:14.849\n姜蕾娜議員\n\n06:31.331 --> 06:39.099\n那麼這個是大法官這次要求同時在偵查訊問的過程當中也要求要引進強制辯護制度為什麼當時刑事訴訟法的31條只說在審判中需要強制辯護而沒有講到說在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎\n\n06:53.103 --> 06:55.745\n現在的刑事訴訟法的31條為什麼只要求在審判中才要講強制辯護\n\n07:08.120 --> 07:14.465\n他說這一次那個憲判的理由裡面有寫為了讓那個效率如果說有些時候會耽擱這個偵查的這個事項我要告訴我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的憲法訴訟法31條的立法理由裡面其實講得很清楚因為在整個的偵查詢問過程當中還沒有起訴起訴的條文也還不確定是不是這個最重以這個最重本性死刑來起訴\n\n07:35.080 --> 07:38.763\n所以就是說如果說你在偵查詢問的過程當中就已經要引進這個強制辯護人的制度然後依照大法官的見解這個如果說當事人他自己不騙律師叫這個請法服的律師去幫忙做這個義務辯護那請問法服的這個律師的費用是誰出?\n\n07:56.478 --> 08:05.088\n法服的律師當然法服有法服但法服的預算是由我們司法院捐助的是所以你們司法院未來準備要增編一兩億的錢嗎\n\n08:07.177 --> 08:13.400\n所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的去計算在過去這一年當中有多少可能因為依職權依起訴告發等等的而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的\n\n08:29.426 --> 08:34.389\n因為其實原來法服針對那個重罪的偵查中培訓本來就已經有這個計畫是但是案件數不多但是現在因為當時是在審判嘛你現在已經進入到這個偵查詢問的過程當中本席這個有幫你們稍微算了一下齁那依照112年你們自己法務部的統計資料裡面這個顯示那麼事實上這個以這個最重本席死刑的偵查起訴案件是大概252件\n\n08:56.443 --> 08:58.105\n但是呢如果說這252件的以死刑起訴的這個罪名其實那都還只是很少量我們回顧啊我們以這個傷害罪在去年大概有三萬兩千件那事實上有可能\n\n09:11.903 --> 09:15.686\n是更多因為這個可能人家當時也是告發或是依職權認為說可能是有死刑的這樣一個情況可是最後這個轉回變成只有三萬兩千件所以我們是認為說有可能未來會有六千個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑這個死刑的嫌疑犯\n\n09:34.359 --> 09:46.751\n需要有訴訟辯護人的那如果說以這個死刑的嫌疑犯他所要聘請的法服的律師作為訴訟的這個作為訴訟辯護人他的費用大概一個階段是兩萬五千塊所以你司法院你至少要編一億五千萬那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢\n\n09:58.599 --> 10:07.646\n去幫這些死刑的這個嫌疑犯去幫他們付律師費用這筆錢為什麼不拿來去幫那個被告家屬還更好我要講其實大法官所做的這號憲法裁判他其實已經造成這實務界運作的一個很大的問題不僅是法官在審理的時候那麼這個我其實我有想看\n\n10:26.995 --> 10:53.506\n幾位實務界出身的大法官他們都非常不能夠認同這次在憲法判決的主文裡面特別就這個精神障礙在救審能力在救審的時候還有執行的時候也認為以後不能判死刑這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了這其實引起很大的爭議同時在實務運作面、層面上面\n\n10:55.247 --> 11:23.899\n請問部長這會不會未來造成檢察官在偵查詢問的時候的一個困難必須等到這個律師在場的時候才能問因為偵查中本來就是要預知要不要選任辯護人那如果要等待的時間當然要扣除那些的時間但是如果說他不請我們依照憲判的意思我們還是要問像司法檢察官都要問他說我們會通知法府來選任那這再指派\n\n11:24.159 --> 11:46.556\n所以這中間的時間就會拖長了嘛對這個部分其實本席作為立法委員然後我之前我也是法學教授所以我很在乎就實務上運作的這個情況那麼我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話也要提出一個能夠符合實務且能夠接受的一個修法\n\n11:47.436 --> 12:15.361\n更何況我其實我是感到很遺憾的事也是覺得很不能夠接受的就是如果說司法院從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要為什麼你們自己都不修法然後司法院院長不是還這個主持或是幾個大法官也主持司法也主持這個刑事訴訟法的研修會議該做都沒有做然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判\n\n12:16.380 --> 12:22.461\n然後以止氣使的來命令大家來修法最後呢累死了一堆小法官\n\n12:23.646 --> 12:23.666\n好,謝謝\n\n12:53.511 --> 12:53.699\n謝惠玲\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.973,"end":12.617,"text":"有請黃秘書長黃秘書長還有部長部長委員好部長秘書長您好這次大法官做成了死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決那其實也引起了非常多的討論那麼固然大法官沒有這個宣告死刑為違憲這個說實在的話還"},{"start":34.97,"end":55.111,"text":"出乎我的意料之外我想當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面以及看到所有的法庭之友的辯論書法庭之友的意見書當然除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑核限還有法務部的立場也是贊成死刑核限之外全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的"},{"start":57.353,"end":82.991,"text":"那麼做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決這個對於這個法學界來看這件事情當然會認為他就是實際上看起來是死刑是合憲但是設下了重重的關卡那其實判決的效果已經達成了實質的廢死這個部分來說的話也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的"},{"start":85.333,"end":108.215,"text":"要設置最嚴密最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件呢那麼感到疑惑而且也認為說這些大法官所談的條件難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎沒有討論過嗎我想請問秘書長我們知道其實司法院"},{"start":109.787,"end":112.652,"text":"請問你們到底修了些什麼?你們有針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎?"},{"start":124.247,"end":150.58,"text":"因為之前並還沒有這個憲判但是之前有那個兩公約的兩公約的這個這個像公正公約的這個要求像那個要情節最嚴重的這個犯罪在兩公約裡面就有那那個程序其實在最高法院本身最高法院本身從101年開始其實他們本身就針對了死刑案件的這個上訴那他已經要求說"},{"start":151.34,"end":152.361,"text":"譬如說何怡婷的一致決"},{"start":176.189,"end":179.232,"text":"因為大法官的要求是說在三審的法院都要有一制決請問之前的評議部都還保留著嗎?"},{"start":206.147,"end":210.472,"text":"我們現在正在查因為我們的評議部依照那個檔案管理是有目前的規定是保留10年所以代表可能之前的都已經銷毀了好沒關係我們先要看一下這個剛剛其實秘書長有講的司法院其實曾經主導過這個一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的這個修法"},{"start":226.892,"end":234.062,"text":"本席也懷也是高度質疑你們在101年的時候當時司法周刊上面就已經有講就是你們曾經有修這個《刑事訴訟法》第388條將強制辯護延伸到第三審落實被告的辯護依賴權"},{"start":243.135,"end":245.257,"text":"那麼接下來在110年最近這前三年的時候也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法要經濟人權保障將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍請問你們過去都有討論可是為什麼都沒有提出修法"},{"start":260.41,"end":278.013,"text":"跟委員報告齁因為實際上面當然我們正在在是不是因為食物界反彈沒有沒有因為食物上面就是這樣在做的都有這樣在做所以根本沒有修法的必要對那只是說大法官這一次認為說食物上這個做法應該要再進一步的這個明文好那以前最高法院就是這樣一直在在"},{"start":278.633,"end":299.342,"text":"所以就是很多時候在做的根本不需要修法嘛那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法是因為他勸你們勸不動所以呢乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決直接在裡面寫清楚然後要求你們要修法是不是如此我高度的懷疑那接下來我想要講的就是你們在這次的報告裡面你們提出來未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名但是還有其他的罪啊"},{"start":303.052,"end":313.724,"text":"在我們特別法還有在這個刑法裡面其實光是涉及到就是光是與這個罪重本行是死刑的條文就有30幾條就有30幾種條文吧涉及88種的死刑罪名"},{"start":319.813,"end":326.536,"text":"委員報告 其他都不處理嗎沒有 那因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的你講得很好 大法官只能針對釋憲的標的 是不是可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎"},{"start":343.427,"end":347.631,"text":"沒有吧,我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是數位裁判啊他已經依託了這個人民所提出來的釋憲的理由"},{"start":354.294,"end":369.725,"text":"本席認為這是只能夠針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序其他的都不重要了其他的條文好像也已經有在申請釋憲另外的案子等到整個釋憲完了之後再做決定所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的"},{"start":374.788,"end":374.849,"text":"姜蕾娜議員"},{"start":391.331,"end":399.099,"text":"那麼這個是大法官這次要求同時在偵查訊問的過程當中也要求要引進強制辯護制度為什麼當時刑事訴訟法的31條只說在審判中需要強制辯護而沒有講到說在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎"},{"start":413.103,"end":415.745,"text":"現在的刑事訴訟法的31條為什麼只要求在審判中才要講強制辯護"},{"start":428.12,"end":434.465,"text":"他說這一次那個憲判的理由裡面有寫為了讓那個效率如果說有些時候會耽擱這個偵查的這個事項我要告訴我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的憲法訴訟法31條的立法理由裡面其實講得很清楚因為在整個的偵查詢問過程當中還沒有起訴起訴的條文也還不確定是不是這個最重以這個最重本性死刑來起訴"},{"start":455.08,"end":458.763,"text":"所以就是說如果說你在偵查詢問的過程當中就已經要引進這個強制辯護人的制度然後依照大法官的見解這個如果說當事人他自己不騙律師叫這個請法服的律師去幫忙做這個義務辯護那請問法服的這個律師的費用是誰出?"},{"start":476.478,"end":485.088,"text":"法服的律師當然法服有法服但法服的預算是由我們司法院捐助的是 所以你們司法院未來準備要增編一兩億的錢嗎"},{"start":487.177,"end":493.4,"text":"所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的去計算在過去這一年當中有多少可能因為依職權依起訴告發等等的而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的"},{"start":509.426,"end":514.389,"text":"因為其實原來法服針對那個重罪的偵查中培訓本來就已經有這個計畫是 但是案件數不多但是現在因為當時是在審判嘛你現在已經進入到這個偵查詢問的過程當中本席這個有幫你們稍微算了一下齁那依照112年你們自己法務部的統計資料裡面這個顯示那麼事實上這個以這個最重本席死刑的偵查起訴案件是大概252件"},{"start":536.443,"end":538.105,"text":"但是呢如果說這252件的以死刑起訴的這個罪名其實那都還只是很少量我們回顧啊我們以這個傷害罪在去年大概有三萬兩千件那事實上有可能"},{"start":551.903,"end":555.686,"text":"是更多因為這個可能人家當時也是告發或是依職權認為說可能是有死刑的這樣一個情況可是最後這個轉回變成只有三萬兩千件所以我們是認為說有可能未來會有六千個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑這個死刑的嫌疑犯"},{"start":574.359,"end":586.751,"text":"需要有訴訟辯護人的那如果說以這個死刑的嫌疑犯他所要聘請的法服的律師作為訴訟的這個作為訴訟辯護人他的費用大概一個階段是兩萬五千塊所以你司法院你至少要編一億五千萬那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢"},{"start":598.599,"end":607.646,"text":"去幫這些死刑的這個嫌疑犯去幫他們付律師費用這筆錢為什麼不拿來去幫那個被告家屬還更好我要講其實大法官所做的這號憲法裁判他其實已經造成這實務界運作的一個很大的問題不僅是法官在審理的時候那麼這個我其實我有想看"},{"start":626.995,"end":653.506,"text":"幾位實務界出身的大法官他們都非常不能夠認同這次在憲法判決的主文裡面特別就這個精神障礙在救審能力在救審的時候還有執行的時候也認為以後不能判死刑這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了這其實引起很大的爭議同時在實務運作面、層面上面"},{"start":655.247,"end":683.899,"text":"請問部長這會不會未來造成檢察官在偵查詢問的時候的一個困難必須等到這個律師在場的時候才能問因為偵查中本來就是要預知要不要選任辯護人那如果要等待的時間當然要扣除那些的時間但是如果說他不請我們依照憲判的意思我們還是要問像司法檢察官都要問他說我們會通知法府來選任那這再指派"},{"start":684.159,"end":706.556,"text":"所以這中間的時間就會拖長了嘛對 這個部分其實本席作為立法委員然後我之前我也是法學教授所以我很在乎就實務上運作的這個情況那麼我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話也要提出一個能夠符合實務且能夠接受的一個修法"},{"start":707.436,"end":735.361,"text":"更何況我其實我是感到很遺憾的事也是覺得很不能夠接受的就是如果說司法院從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要為什麼你們自己都不修法然後司法院院長不是還這個主持或是幾個大法官也主持司法也主持這個刑事訴訟法的研修會議該做都沒有做然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判"},{"start":736.38,"end":742.461,"text":"然後以止氣使的來命令大家來修法最後呢累死了一堆小法官"},{"start":743.646,"end":743.666,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":773.511,"end":773.699,"text":"謝惠玲"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:06:26 - 11:19:22","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155142,"gazette":{"lineno":629,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時6分）有請黃秘書長及部長。"],["主席：請黃秘書長、部長。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長及秘書長好。這次大法官做成了死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決，其實也引起了非常多的討論，固然大法官沒有宣告死刑為違憲，說實在話還出乎我的意料之外。當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面，以及看到所有的法庭之友意見書，大概除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑合憲，還有法務部的立場是贊成死刑合憲之外，全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的，做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決。以法學界來看這件事情，當然會認為實際上看起來死刑是合憲，但是設下了重重的關卡，其實判決的效果已經達成了實質廢死，這個部分來說的話，也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的要設置最嚴密、最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件感到疑惑，而且也認為這些大法官所談的條件，難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎？沒有討論過嗎？我想請問秘書長，我們知道司法院是刑事訴訟法的主管機關，過去基本上也主導刑事訴訟法的修法，請問你們到底修了些什麼？你們針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為之前還沒有這個憲判，但是之前有兩公約，像公政公約的要求，像要情節最嚴重的犯罪在兩公約裡面就有。那個程序其實在最高法院本身，最高法院本身從101年開始，其實他們本身就針對了死刑案件的上訴，已經要求要開必要的言詞辯論，然後……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。所以也就是說，其實司法院之前有曾經討論過。請問部長及秘書長，你們對於這次大法官所設這些條件，造成實務上未來在實際運作上會不會有窒礙難行之處？譬如合議庭的一致決。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，那雖然沒有正式的統計，但是就依之前的兩公約，在還沒有憲判之前，兩公約的要求已經有要求到對死刑要非常的慎重，所以真正實務上面明白的沒有一致決然後去判出死刑的，我們還沒有查到。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為大法官的要求是在三審的法院都要有一致決，請問之前的評議簿都還保留著嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們現在正在查，因為我們的評議簿依照檔案管理，目前的規定是保留10年，那因為現在……"],["翁委員曉玲：也有可能之前的都已經銷毀了。好，沒關係，我們現在看一下，剛剛秘書長有講了，司法院一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的修法，其實本席也是高度的質疑，你們在101年的時候，當時司法週刊上面就已經有講，就是你們曾經有修刑事訴訟法第三百八十八條，將強制辯護延伸到第三審，落實被告的辯護依賴權。接下來在110年，也就是最近，在前三年的時候，也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法，要精進人權保障，將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍。請問你們過去都有討論，可是為什麼都沒有提出修法？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為實際上面，當然我們正在……"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是因為實務界反彈？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：沒有，因為實務上面就是這樣在做的。"],["翁委員曉玲：都這樣在做，所以根本沒有修法的必要？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：對，只是說大法官這次認為，實務上這個作法應該要再進一步的明文，以前最高法院就是一直這樣在做。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以就是很多實務在做了，根本不需要修法嘛，那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法？是因為他勸你們勸不動，所以乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決，直接在裡面寫清楚，然後要求你們要修法，是不是如此？我高度的懷疑喔。","接下來我想講的是，你們在這次的報告裡面提出未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名，但是還有其他的罪啊，在特別法還有在刑法裡面，其實光是最重本刑是死刑的條文就有三十幾種條文吧，涉及八十八種的死刑罪名，其他都不處理嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：沒有，因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的去……"],["翁委員曉玲：你講的很好，大法官只能針對釋憲的標的，是不是？可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面，基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎？釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎？沒有吧？我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是訴外裁判啊，他已經逸脫了人民所提出來的釋憲的理由，那本席認為這是只能夠針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序，但其他的都不重要了，是不是？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：其他條文好像也已經有再聲請釋憲，另外的案子……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以等到整個釋憲完了之後，然後再做決定，所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的，部分的人能夠享受到最嚴密的程序保障，其他的八十八種都不需要？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們研修……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我必須要講這是一個嚴重的問題，我這次在你們的報告書裡面看到了。","接下來我要講有關於強制辯護的問題，在三審強制辯護的部分，這是大法官這次要求，同時在偵查訊問的過程當中，也要求要引進強制辯護制度，為什麼當時刑事訴訟法第三十一條只說在審判中需要強制辯護，而沒有講到在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護，你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：偵查可能是需要時效，這一部分我看大法官的裁定理由裡面……"],["翁委員曉玲：我是說現在的刑事訴訟法第三十一條，為什麼只要求在審判中才要強制辯護？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：這一次憲判的理由裡面有寫，考慮到效率，如果有時候會耽擱偵查的時效……"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的刑事訴訟法第三十一條的立法理由裡面，其實講得很清楚，因為在整個的偵查訊問過程當中還沒有起訴，起訴的條文也還不確定，是不是以最重本刑死刑來起訴？也就是說，如果在偵查訊問的過程當中，就已經要引進強制辯護人的制度，然後依照大法官的見解，如果當事人自己不聘律師，就要請法扶的律師幫忙做義務辯護，請問法扶的律師費用是誰出？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：法扶的這些律師當然由法扶付，但法扶的預算是由我們司法院捐助的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以你們司法院未來準備要增編一、兩億的錢嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，法扶會去評估到底因此會增加多少……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的計算？在過去這一年當中，有多少可能因為依職權、依起訴、告發等等而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：原來法扶針對重罪的偵查中陪訊本來就已經有這個計畫……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，但案件數不多，因為當時是在審判，現在已經進入到偵查訊問的過程當中，本席有幫你們稍微算了一下。依照112年你們法務部自己的統計資料顯示，事實上，以最重本刑死刑的偵查起訴案件大概是252件，但是如果這252件以死刑起訴的罪名，其實那都還只是很少量。我們可以回估，以傷害罪在去年大概有3萬2,000件，事實上有可能更多，因為可能人家當時也是告發或是依職權認為可能是有死刑的情況，可是最後轉回傷害變成只有3萬2,000件，所以我們是認為有可能未來會有6,000個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑死刑的嫌疑犯，需要有訴訟辯護人，如果以這些死刑的嫌疑犯所要聘請的法扶律師作為訴訟辯護人，他的費用大概一個階段是2萬5,000塊，所以你司法院至少要編1億5,000萬，那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢去幫這些死刑嫌疑犯付律師費用？這筆錢為什麼不拿去幫被告家屬還更好！","我要講的是，大法官所做的這號憲法裁判，其實已經造成實務界運作很大問題，不僅是法官在審理的時候，其實我有詳看，幾位實務界出身的大法官都非常不能夠認同這次憲法判決的主文裡面特別就精神障礙在就審的時候及執行的時候不能判死刑，這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了，這其實引起很大的爭議。同時在實務運作層面上面，請問部長，未來這會不會造成檢察官在偵查訊問時的困難，就是必須等到律師在場的時候才能問？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為偵查中本來就是要諭知要不要選任辯護人，等待的時間當然要扣除那些時間嘛！但是如果說他不請了，我們依照憲判的意旨，我們還是要問，像司法、檢察官都要問他，我們會通知法扶來選任、指派……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這中間的時間就會拖長了嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還是有限時間。"],["翁委員曉玲：就拖長了嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一定會的。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，這個部分，本席作為立法委員，我之前也是法學教授，所以我很在乎實務上運作的情況，我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話，你要提出一個能夠符合實務，並且大家能夠接受的修法。更何況，其實我感到很遺憾的是，也是覺得很不能夠接受的，就是如果司法院從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要，為什麼你們自己都不修法？然後司法院院長不是還主持，或是幾個大法官也主持刑事訴訟法的研修會議，該做都沒有做，然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判，然後頤指氣使的命令大家來修法，最後累死了一堆小法官，這樣的作法其實是非常不恰當的。當然今天秘書長在這裡也是代主受過，這個判決也不是你們做的，但是你們要去承擔所有民眾的不滿、法學界的不滿。無論如何，如果你們要提出修法的話，我也希望你們能夠提出一個符合司法實務界，還有符合民眾期待的相關修法，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}}