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\"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 706.702, \"end\": 708.183, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 708.183, \"end\": 708.343, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 708.343, \"end\": 708.563, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 708.563, \"end\": 709.924, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"售\", \"start\": 709.924, \"end\": 710.084, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 710.084, \"end\": 710.265, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 710.265, \"end\": 710.465, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"售\", \"start\": 710.465, \"end\": 710.685, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 710.685, \"end\": 710.805, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 710.805, \"end\": 710.945, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 710.945, \"end\": 711.265, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 711.265, \"end\": 711.646, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 711.646, \"end\": 711.826, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 711.826, \"end\": 711.946, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 711.946, \"end\": 712.066, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 712.066, \"end\": 712.206, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 712.206, \"end\": 712.926, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 712.926, \"end\": 713.087, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 713.087, \"end\": 713.267, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 713.267, \"end\": 713.427, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 713.427, \"end\": 713.947, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 713.947, \"end\": 715.628, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 715.628, \"end\": 715.809, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 715.809, \"end\": 716.109, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 716.109, \"end\": 716.349, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 716.349, \"end\": 718.39, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 718.39, \"end\": 719.051, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 719.051, \"end\": 719.391, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 719.391, \"end\": 719.511, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 719.511, \"end\": 719.691, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 719.691, \"end\": 719.831, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 719.831, \"end\": 719.992, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 719.992, \"end\": 720.112, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 720.112, \"end\": 721.152, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 721.152, \"end\": 721.453, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 721.453, \"end\": 721.553, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 721.553, \"end\": 721.573, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,181 --> 00:00:20,396\n我們請顧部長。是,陳委員。部長好。我想還是在軍售案的過程中間我提出一些建言。是不是請站規司長跟採購室主任一起。\n\n2\n00:00:26,287 --> 00:00:43,049\n在機密的報告裡面聽到了跟有一部分東西的作業流程跟我現在提的是很接近那我就點到為止我們只是表達對目前的幾個關鍵性的問題第一個就是美國的\n\n3\n00:00:44,534 --> 00:01:07,294\n國防部的安全合作局跟他各部門的關係這裡面每一個都有文件的論述我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做一個更深入的瞭解因為剛才很多同仁都在提到是不是查閉是不是哪個單位發現其實在這個作業流裡面我提出一個建言\n\n4\n00:01:08,275 --> 00:01:34,960\n為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或者是媒體的誤解我們可以請站規師法律師採購室我們在國防大學這個管理學院我們辦一個短期兩個禮拜班把過去有經驗的老師甚至我們前一陣子駐美的一個退休的法治官他在回台灣了他都是很有經驗的那麼在上面做一個兩個禮拜的這個\n\n5\n00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:58,651\n這是一個很棒的一個流程那麼這個可以解免很多的誤解甚至避免外面的一些誤判這個圖是所有跟DSEA相關的美國的這個部會那這個圖裡面每個單位的工作值都有\n\n6\n00:02:00,333 --> 00:02:23,549\n這張圖裏面就是我們現在只強調的是國防安和局承辦業務然後各軍有自己的對等單位剛才在簡報師長提到了但是只是帶過去他真正的就是下面有一個controller一個等於說他一個審計長的辦公室他是副等於說助理是次長級的\n\n7\n00:02:24,770 --> 00:02:29,431\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n\n8\n00:02:51,415 --> 00:03:05,889\n團隊提出希望軍售也能有一個公和在美國軍售的採購作業規範是沒有公和的但是我們國內要求公和但是公和的比例是多少呢?case不同\n\n9\n00:03:07,113 --> 00:03:34,875\n那怎麼做呢?如果你要攻核假設10億你說10%那就是加1億這1億美國國防部是不管的就把這1億變成我們簽10億的約負11億的款把那1億轉給廠商了但這個廠商給你合作的計轉計協分配下去呢又變成美元點所以這個裡面就變成有些落實有些不落實那美國廠商對攻核外包的東西\n\n10\n00:03:35,865 --> 00:04:02,870\n美國國防部不在乎這個時候又產生了如果我們是單一採購案或者是二度採購案或者是加入其他國家幾個國家的採購案這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本這個叫做sinkcapital或non-recurrency那這個東西每個case都不一樣如果這些案子我們在國內的是掌握不住的\n\n11\n00:04:03,490 --> 00:04:25,550\n那能不能由駐美軍事代表團的採購組他有律師顧問定期啊除了配合我們國內的訪團去督察以外要跟美方的這個DCAA要多做溝通而不是軍售官跟DSEA做溝通那這兩個案子啊如果你把它放在一起看的話就產生了一個\n\n12\n00:04:27,232 --> 00:04:47,864\n軍售因為要攻核所以就外加外加款是國軍付錢但實質在美軍外加款是轉包給他的合約廠商這個合約廠商能夠給我們的寄轉寄協或是部分分工變成美元點美元點在過去有一半\n\n13\n00:04:49,645 --> 00:05:17,680\n給我們的軍備局給中科院那有一部分呢就直接分給工業局就跟我們國內的廠商那在這個細節裡面呢有很多東西是定義不清的不是誰對誰錯那這個時候如果我們的律師會計師在這個細節裡面沒有從開始先律定而只是從軍事單位各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求這個地方細節我們就看不到了\n\n14\n00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:46,448\n所以這個裏面這一段錯誤不在國內只是誠意甚高要把法律上要求軍售要有公和於是產生了一個額外追加預算增加的預算但美軍說我不管你這段增加我就直接包給合約廠商那這個裏面一個案子如果做10年10年的公和禁忌有多少那等美軍的DCEA再來審查的時候也許在裏面就發現有一些\n\n15\n00:05:46,988 --> 00:05:47,148\n：陳永康\n\n16\n00:06:07,967 --> 00:06:30,948\n不管是LOR它出處的一個參考架或是到後面要簽LOA這個裡面的項目項次非常多200項、300項那這個我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查而不是軍種單位提出申請他看這個我要、我要、我要就全包裹收了那這個東西能做好\n\n17\n00:06:31,408 --> 00:06:59,951\n我認為在往後的軍售案以美國這麼多年它的軍售案是不賺不賠但是履約督導是DCAA我們要去配合不是光DSEA所以我剛才提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班請我們過去有一些有經驗的有法制的有採購的替我們同仁上課或者是未來有機會加入的這個同仁做一個上課以上是我做一個建議\n\n18\n00:07:00,692 --> 00:07:06,859\n另外一個就是有關的商售啊商售我們都要求公和可是如果是國軍軍備局來買\n\n19\n00:07:09,633 --> 00:07:09,893\n陳永康、陳永康\n\n20\n00:07:55,586 --> 00:07:58,328\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n21\n00:08:15,871 --> 00:08:16,171\n：陳永康：陳永康：\n\n22\n00:08:39,462 --> 00:08:46,724\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n\n23\n00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:33,465\n並沒有人要擋國防預算那麼我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢花在刀口上而且為國家國家安全為社會能夠奠定一個更好的基礎包括民間的產業那剛才有一個談到就是希望變成美國的供應鏈要加入美國的這個協會其實過去您曉得就是說你要加入條件是你要做國內的滴滴嘛\n\n24\n00:09:34,085 --> 00:09:55,413\n你現在根據美國的標準我們國內很多廠商是不合格的就像你剛剛講的廠設施要隔離專案要隔離這個安全設施要照美國的標準來驗收而不是我們國內廠商或者一般委員想像中只要登記就入門入門就變成供應鏈這個我希望找機會部長那邊能夠幫忙做個說明\n\n25\n00:09:57,178 --> 00:10:19,694\n跟委員報告吼,那個攻核的這個部分呢,現在我們就採事後攻核,也就是說之前我們,事前,因此它計轉的這一個部分呢,有時候跟我們要買的這個武器相關的這些關鍵技術有關,所以我們現在是採事後攻核,也就是說我們要求這個廠商要\n\n26\n00:10:21,195 --> 00:10:42,709\n要認定他願意移轉相關的這些軍事我們要採購的軍事武器相關的這些關鍵技術的這個部分放在整備數裡面我們才會願意做這個公和的點數如果他沒有同意的話我們現在原則上就不再接受這個用公和的點數來增加我們的國防預算那就這個部分\n\n27\n00:10:43,149 --> 00:11:04,979\n那旅業督導的部分剛剛應該也提到了確實這個部分我們也還有在精進的空間那我想剛剛委員建議的就是說我們如何來加強這些整個軍售也好或者商購也好或者是關於旅業督導相關的這個精進的流程我們會再來檢視然後再來\n\n28\n00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:22,388\n看看還有什麼地方可以再精進那甚至可以跟美方來進行這個就是說在共同來檢討有關相當缺失尤其經過這一次的事件之後\n\n29\n00:11:25,381 --> 00:11:43,858\n謝謝部長。那站位司司長是不是您補充做一個說明,就是說後面我們這個東西大家如何共同來進行。關於那個強化我們建案跟採購人員技能的這個部分,我們會納入後續我們建案的利益培養跟相關的規劃去辦理。\n\n30\n00:11:45,461 --> 00:12:01,573\n那有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售跟商售集合的這個問題,我們下去之後也會配合法律師跟採購師這邊來做一個通盤的檢討。好,謝謝。我們大家共同努力。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3181\t20396\t我們請顧部長。是,陳委員。部長好。我想還是在軍售案的過程中間我提出一些建言。是不是請站規司長跟採購室主任一起。\n26287\t43049\t在機密的報告裡面聽到了跟有一部分東西的作業流程跟我現在提的是很接近那我就點到為止我們只是表達對目前的幾個關鍵性的問題第一個就是美國的\n44534\t67294\t國防部的安全合作局跟他各部門的關係這裡面每一個都有文件的論述我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做一個更深入的瞭解因為剛才很多同仁都在提到是不是查閉是不是哪個單位發現其實在這個作業流裡面我提出一個建言\n68275\t94960\t為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或者是媒體的誤解我們可以請站規師法律師採購室我們在國防大學這個管理學院我們辦一個短期兩個禮拜班把過去有經驗的老師甚至我們前一陣子駐美的一個退休的法治官他在回台灣了他都是很有經驗的那麼在上面做一個兩個禮拜的這個\n104640\t118651\t這是一個很棒的一個流程那麼這個可以解免很多的誤解甚至避免外面的一些誤判這個圖是所有跟DSEA相關的美國的這個部會那這個圖裡面每個單位的工作值都有\n120333\t143549\t這張圖裏面就是我們現在只強調的是國防安和局承辦業務然後各軍有自己的對等單位剛才在簡報師長提到了但是只是帶過去他真正的就是下面有一個controller一個等於說他一個審計長的辦公室他是副等於說助理是次長級的\n144770\t149431\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n171415\t185889\t團隊提出希望軍售也能有一個公和在美國軍售的採購作業規範是沒有公和的但是我們國內要求公和但是公和的比例是多少呢?case 不同\n187113\t214875\t那怎麼做呢?如果你要攻核假設10億你說10%那就是加1億這1億美國國防部是不管的就把這1億變成我們簽10億的約負11億的款把那1億轉給廠商了但這個廠商給你合作的計轉計協分配下去呢又變成美元點所以這個裡面就變成有些落實有些不落實那美國廠商對攻核外包的東西\n215865\t242870\t美國國防部不在乎這個時候又產生了如果我們是單一採購案或者是二度採購案或者是加入其他國家幾個國家的採購案這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本這個叫做sink capital或non-recurrency那這個東西每個case都不一樣如果這些案子我們在國內的是掌握不住的\n243490\t265550\t那能不能由駐美軍事代表團的採購組他有律師顧問定期啊除了配合我們國內的訪團去督察以外要跟美方的這個DCAA要多做溝通而不是軍售官跟DSEA做溝通那這兩個案子啊如果你把它放在一起看的話就產生了一個\n267232\t287864\t軍售因為要攻核所以就外加外加款是國軍付錢但實質在美軍外加款是轉包給他的合約廠商這個合約廠商能夠給我們的寄轉寄協或是部分分工變成美元點美元點在過去有一半\n289645\t317680\t給我們的軍備局給中科院那有一部分呢就直接分給工業局就跟我們國內的廠商那在這個細節裡面呢有很多東西是定義不清的不是誰對誰錯那這個時候如果我們的律師會計師在這個細節裡面沒有從開始先律定而只是從軍事單位各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求這個地方細節我們就看不到了\n318300\t346448\t所以這個裏面這一段錯誤不在國內只是誠意甚高要把法律上要求軍售要有公和於是產生了一個額外追加預算增加的預算但美軍說我不管你這段增加我就直接包給合約廠商那這個裏面一個案子如果做10年10年的公和禁忌有多少那等美軍的DCEA再來審查的時候也許在裏面就發現有一些\n346988\t347148\t：陳永康\n367967\t390948\t不管是LOR它出處的一個參考架或是到後面要簽LOA這個裡面的項目項次非常多200項、300項那這個我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查而不是軍種單位提出申請他看這個我要、我要、我要就全包裹收了那這個東西能做好\n391408\t419951\t我認為在往後的軍售案以美國這麼多年它的軍售案是不賺不賠但是履約督導是DCAA我們要去配合不是光DSEA所以我剛才提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班請我們過去有一些有經驗的有法制的有採購的替我們同仁上課或者是未來有機會加入的這個同仁做一個上課以上是我做一個建議\n420692\t426859\t另外一個就是有關的商售啊商售我們都要求公和可是如果是國軍軍備局來買\n429633\t429893\t陳永康、陳永康\n458217\t475486\t．．\n475586\t478328\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n495871\t496171\t：陳永康：陳永康：\n519462\t526724\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n547350\t573465\t並沒有人要擋國防預算那麼我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢花在刀口上而且為國家國家安全為社會能夠奠定一個更好的基礎包括民間的產業那剛才有一個談到就是希望變成美國的供應鏈要加入美國的這個協會其實過去您曉得就是說你要加入條件是你要做國內的滴滴嘛\n574085\t595413\t你現在根據美國的標準我們國內很多廠商是不合格的就像你剛剛講的廠設施要隔離專案要隔離這個安全設施要照美國的標準來驗收而不是我們國內廠商或者一般委員想像中只要登記就入門入門就變成供應鏈這個我希望找機會部長那邊能夠幫忙做個說明\n597178\t619694\t跟委員報告吼,那個攻核的這個部分呢,現在我們就採事後攻核,也就是說之前我們,事前,因此它計轉的這一個部分呢,有時候跟我們要買的這個武器相關的這些關鍵技術有關,所以我們現在是採事後攻核,也就是說我們要求這個廠商要\n621195\t642709\t要認定他願意移轉相關的這些軍事我們要採購的軍事武器相關的這些關鍵技術的這個部分放在整備數裡面我們才會願意做這個公和的點數如果他沒有同意的話我們現在原則上就不再接受這個用公和的點數來增加我們的國防預算那就這個部分\n643149\t664979\t那旅業督導的部分剛剛應該也提到了確實這個部分我們也還有在精進的空間那我想剛剛委員建議的就是說我們如何來加強這些整個軍售也好或者商購也好或者是關於旅業督導相關的這個精進的流程我們會再來檢視然後再來\n668200\t682388\t看看還有什麼地方可以再精進那甚至可以跟美方來進行這個就是說在共同來檢討有關相當缺失尤其經過這一次的事件之後\n685381\t703858\t謝謝部長。那站位司司長是不是您補充做一個說明,就是說後面我們這個東西大家如何共同來進行。關於那個強化我們建案跟採購人員技能的這個部分,我們會納入後續我們建案的利益培養跟相關的規劃去辦理。\n705461\t721573\t那有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售跟商售集合的這個問題,我們下去之後也會配合法律師跟採購師這邊來做一個通盤的檢討。好,謝謝。我們大家共同努力。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。\n","txt":"我們請顧部長。是,陳委員。部長好。我想還是在軍售案的過程中間我提出一些建言。是不是請站規司長跟採購室主任一起。\n在機密的報告裡面聽到了跟有一部分東西的作業流程跟我現在提的是很接近那我就點到為止我們只是表達對目前的幾個關鍵性的問題第一個就是美國的\n國防部的安全合作局跟他各部門的關係這裡面每一個都有文件的論述我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做一個更深入的瞭解因為剛才很多同仁都在提到是不是查閉是不是哪個單位發現其實在這個作業流裡面我提出一個建言\n為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或者是媒體的誤解我們可以請站規師法律師採購室我們在國防大學這個管理學院我們辦一個短期兩個禮拜班把過去有經驗的老師甚至我們前一陣子駐美的一個退休的法治官他在回台灣了他都是很有經驗的那麼在上面做一個兩個禮拜的這個\n這是一個很棒的一個流程那麼這個可以解免很多的誤解甚至避免外面的一些誤判這個圖是所有跟DSEA相關的美國的這個部會那這個圖裡面每個單位的工作值都有\n這張圖裏面就是我們現在只強調的是國防安和局承辦業務然後各軍有自己的對等單位剛才在簡報師長提到了但是只是帶過去他真正的就是下面有一個controller一個等於說他一個審計長的辦公室他是副等於說助理是次長級的\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n團隊提出希望軍售也能有一個公和在美國軍售的採購作業規範是沒有公和的但是我們國內要求公和但是公和的比例是多少呢?case 不同\n那怎麼做呢?如果你要攻核假設10億你說10%那就是加1億這1億美國國防部是不管的就把這1億變成我們簽10億的約負11億的款把那1億轉給廠商了但這個廠商給你合作的計轉計協分配下去呢又變成美元點所以這個裡面就變成有些落實有些不落實那美國廠商對攻核外包的東西\n美國國防部不在乎這個時候又產生了如果我們是單一採購案或者是二度採購案或者是加入其他國家幾個國家的採購案這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本這個叫做sink capital或non-recurrency那這個東西每個case都不一樣如果這些案子我們在國內的是掌握不住的\n那能不能由駐美軍事代表團的採購組他有律師顧問定期啊除了配合我們國內的訪團去督察以外要跟美方的這個DCAA要多做溝通而不是軍售官跟DSEA做溝通那這兩個案子啊如果你把它放在一起看的話就產生了一個\n軍售因為要攻核所以就外加外加款是國軍付錢但實質在美軍外加款是轉包給他的合約廠商這個合約廠商能夠給我們的寄轉寄協或是部分分工變成美元點美元點在過去有一半\n給我們的軍備局給中科院那有一部分呢就直接分給工業局就跟我們國內的廠商那在這個細節裡面呢有很多東西是定義不清的不是誰對誰錯那這個時候如果我們的律師會計師在這個細節裡面沒有從開始先律定而只是從軍事單位各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求這個地方細節我們就看不到了\n所以這個裏面這一段錯誤不在國內只是誠意甚高要把法律上要求軍售要有公和於是產生了一個額外追加預算增加的預算但美軍說我不管你這段增加我就直接包給合約廠商那這個裏面一個案子如果做10年10年的公和禁忌有多少那等美軍的DCEA再來審查的時候也許在裏面就發現有一些\n：陳永康\n不管是LOR它出處的一個參考架或是到後面要簽LOA這個裡面的項目項次非常多200項、300項那這個我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查而不是軍種單位提出申請他看這個我要、我要、我要就全包裹收了那這個東西能做好\n我認為在往後的軍售案以美國這麼多年它的軍售案是不賺不賠但是履約督導是DCAA我們要去配合不是光DSEA所以我剛才提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班請我們過去有一些有經驗的有法制的有採購的替我們同仁上課或者是未來有機會加入的這個同仁做一個上課以上是我做一個建議\n另外一個就是有關的商售啊商售我們都要求公和可是如果是國軍軍備局來買\n陳永康、陳永康\n．．\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n：陳永康：陳永康：\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n並沒有人要擋國防預算那麼我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢花在刀口上而且為國家國家安全為社會能夠奠定一個更好的基礎包括民間的產業那剛才有一個談到就是希望變成美國的供應鏈要加入美國的這個協會其實過去您曉得就是說你要加入條件是你要做國內的滴滴嘛\n你現在根據美國的標準我們國內很多廠商是不合格的就像你剛剛講的廠設施要隔離專案要隔離這個安全設施要照美國的標準來驗收而不是我們國內廠商或者一般委員想像中只要登記就入門入門就變成供應鏈這個我希望找機會部長那邊能夠幫忙做個說明\n跟委員報告吼,那個攻核的這個部分呢,現在我們就採事後攻核,也就是說之前我們,事前,因此它計轉的這一個部分呢,有時候跟我們要買的這個武器相關的這些關鍵技術有關,所以我們現在是採事後攻核,也就是說我們要求這個廠商要\n要認定他願意移轉相關的這些軍事我們要採購的軍事武器相關的這些關鍵技術的這個部分放在整備數裡面我們才會願意做這個公和的點數如果他沒有同意的話我們現在原則上就不再接受這個用公和的點數來增加我們的國防預算那就這個部分\n那旅業督導的部分剛剛應該也提到了確實這個部分我們也還有在精進的空間那我想剛剛委員建議的就是說我們如何來加強這些整個軍售也好或者商購也好或者是關於旅業督導相關的這個精進的流程我們會再來檢視然後再來\n看看還有什麼地方可以再精進那甚至可以跟美方來進行這個就是說在共同來檢討有關相當缺失尤其經過這一次的事件之後\n謝謝部長。那站位司司長是不是您補充做一個說明,就是說後面我們這個東西大家如何共同來進行。關於那個強化我們建案跟採購人員技能的這個部分,我們會納入後續我們建案的利益培養跟相關的規劃去辦理。\n那有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售跟商售集合的這個問題,我們下去之後也會配合法律師跟採購師這邊來做一個通盤的檢討。好,謝謝。我們大家共同努力。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.181 --> 00:20.396\n我們請顧部長。是,陳委員。部長好。我想還是在軍售案的過程中間我提出一些建言。是不是請站規司長跟採購室主任一起。\n\n00:26.287 --> 00:43.049\n在機密的報告裡面聽到了跟有一部分東西的作業流程跟我現在提的是很接近那我就點到為止我們只是表達對目前的幾個關鍵性的問題第一個就是美國的\n\n00:44.534 --> 01:07.294\n國防部的安全合作局跟他各部門的關係這裡面每一個都有文件的論述我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做一個更深入的瞭解因為剛才很多同仁都在提到是不是查閉是不是哪個單位發現其實在這個作業流裡面我提出一個建言\n\n01:08.275 --> 01:34.960\n為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或者是媒體的誤解我們可以請站規師法律師採購室我們在國防大學這個管理學院我們辦一個短期兩個禮拜班把過去有經驗的老師甚至我們前一陣子駐美的一個退休的法治官他在回台灣了他都是很有經驗的那麼在上面做一個兩個禮拜的這個\n\n01:44.640 --> 01:58.651\n這是一個很棒的一個流程那麼這個可以解免很多的誤解甚至避免外面的一些誤判這個圖是所有跟DSEA相關的美國的這個部會那這個圖裡面每個單位的工作值都有\n\n02:00.333 --> 02:23.549\n這張圖裏面就是我們現在只強調的是國防安和局承辦業務然後各軍有自己的對等單位剛才在簡報師長提到了但是只是帶過去他真正的就是下面有一個controller一個等於說他一個審計長的辦公室他是副等於說助理是次長級的\n\n02:24.770 --> 02:29.431\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n\n02:51.415 --> 03:05.889\n團隊提出希望軍售也能有一個公和在美國軍售的採購作業規範是沒有公和的但是我們國內要求公和但是公和的比例是多少呢?case不同\n\n03:07.113 --> 03:34.875\n那怎麼做呢?如果你要攻核假設10億你說10%那就是加1億這1億美國國防部是不管的就把這1億變成我們簽10億的約負11億的款把那1億轉給廠商了但這個廠商給你合作的計轉計協分配下去呢又變成美元點所以這個裡面就變成有些落實有些不落實那美國廠商對攻核外包的東西\n\n03:35.865 --> 04:02.870\n美國國防部不在乎這個時候又產生了如果我們是單一採購案或者是二度採購案或者是加入其他國家幾個國家的採購案這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本這個叫做sinkcapital或non-recurrency那這個東西每個case都不一樣如果這些案子我們在國內的是掌握不住的\n\n04:03.490 --> 04:25.550\n那能不能由駐美軍事代表團的採購組他有律師顧問定期啊除了配合我們國內的訪團去督察以外要跟美方的這個DCAA要多做溝通而不是軍售官跟DSEA做溝通那這兩個案子啊如果你把它放在一起看的話就產生了一個\n\n04:27.232 --> 04:47.864\n軍售因為要攻核所以就外加外加款是國軍付錢但實質在美軍外加款是轉包給他的合約廠商這個合約廠商能夠給我們的寄轉寄協或是部分分工變成美元點美元點在過去有一半\n\n04:49.645 --> 05:17.680\n給我們的軍備局給中科院那有一部分呢就直接分給工業局就跟我們國內的廠商那在這個細節裡面呢有很多東西是定義不清的不是誰對誰錯那這個時候如果我們的律師會計師在這個細節裡面沒有從開始先律定而只是從軍事單位各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求這個地方細節我們就看不到了\n\n05:18.300 --> 05:46.448\n所以這個裏面這一段錯誤不在國內只是誠意甚高要把法律上要求軍售要有公和於是產生了一個額外追加預算增加的預算但美軍說我不管你這段增加我就直接包給合約廠商那這個裏面一個案子如果做10年10年的公和禁忌有多少那等美軍的DCEA再來審查的時候也許在裏面就發現有一些\n\n05:46.988 --> 05:47.148\n：陳永康\n\n06:07.967 --> 06:30.948\n不管是LOR它出處的一個參考架或是到後面要簽LOA這個裡面的項目項次非常多200項、300項那這個我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查而不是軍種單位提出申請他看這個我要、我要、我要就全包裹收了那這個東西能做好\n\n06:31.408 --> 06:59.951\n我認為在往後的軍售案以美國這麼多年它的軍售案是不賺不賠但是履約督導是DCAA我們要去配合不是光DSEA所以我剛才提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班請我們過去有一些有經驗的有法制的有採購的替我們同仁上課或者是未來有機會加入的這個同仁做一個上課以上是我做一個建議\n\n07:00.692 --> 07:06.859\n另外一個就是有關的商售啊商售我們都要求公和可是如果是國軍軍備局來買\n\n07:09.633 --> 07:09.893\n陳永康、陳永康\n\n07:55.586 --> 07:58.328\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n08:15.871 --> 08:16.171\n：陳永康：陳永康：\n\n08:39.462 --> 08:46.724\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。\n\n09:07.350 --> 09:33.465\n並沒有人要擋國防預算那麼我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢花在刀口上而且為國家國家安全為社會能夠奠定一個更好的基礎包括民間的產業那剛才有一個談到就是希望變成美國的供應鏈要加入美國的這個協會其實過去您曉得就是說你要加入條件是你要做國內的滴滴嘛\n\n09:34.085 --> 09:55.413\n你現在根據美國的標準我們國內很多廠商是不合格的就像你剛剛講的廠設施要隔離專案要隔離這個安全設施要照美國的標準來驗收而不是我們國內廠商或者一般委員想像中只要登記就入門入門就變成供應鏈這個我希望找機會部長那邊能夠幫忙做個說明\n\n09:57.178 --> 10:19.694\n跟委員報告吼,那個攻核的這個部分呢,現在我們就採事後攻核,也就是說之前我們,事前,因此它計轉的這一個部分呢,有時候跟我們要買的這個武器相關的這些關鍵技術有關,所以我們現在是採事後攻核,也就是說我們要求這個廠商要\n\n10:21.195 --> 10:42.709\n要認定他願意移轉相關的這些軍事我們要採購的軍事武器相關的這些關鍵技術的這個部分放在整備數裡面我們才會願意做這個公和的點數如果他沒有同意的話我們現在原則上就不再接受這個用公和的點數來增加我們的國防預算那就這個部分\n\n10:43.149 --> 11:04.979\n那旅業督導的部分剛剛應該也提到了確實這個部分我們也還有在精進的空間那我想剛剛委員建議的就是說我們如何來加強這些整個軍售也好或者商購也好或者是關於旅業督導相關的這個精進的流程我們會再來檢視然後再來\n\n11:08.200 --> 11:22.388\n看看還有什麼地方可以再精進那甚至可以跟美方來進行這個就是說在共同來檢討有關相當缺失尤其經過這一次的事件之後\n\n11:25.381 --> 11:43.858\n謝謝部長。那站位司司長是不是您補充做一個說明,就是說後面我們這個東西大家如何共同來進行。關於那個強化我們建案跟採購人員技能的這個部分,我們會納入後續我們建案的利益培養跟相關的規劃去辦理。\n\n11:45.461 --> 12:01.573\n那有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售跟商售集合的這個問題,我們下去之後也會配合法律師跟採購師這邊來做一個通盤的檢討。好,謝謝。我們大家共同努力。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.181,"end":20.396,"text":"我們請顧部長。是,陳委員。部長好。我想還是在軍售案的過程中間我提出一些建言。是不是請站規司長跟採購室主任一起。"},{"start":26.287,"end":43.049,"text":"在機密的報告裡面聽到了跟有一部分東西的作業流程跟我現在提的是很接近那我就點到為止我們只是表達對目前的幾個關鍵性的問題第一個就是美國的"},{"start":44.534,"end":67.294,"text":"國防部的安全合作局跟他各部門的關係這裡面每一個都有文件的論述我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做一個更深入的瞭解因為剛才很多同仁都在提到是不是查閉是不是哪個單位發現其實在這個作業流裡面我提出一個建言"},{"start":68.275,"end":94.96,"text":"為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或者是媒體的誤解我們可以請站規師法律師採購室我們在國防大學這個管理學院我們辦一個短期兩個禮拜班把過去有經驗的老師甚至我們前一陣子駐美的一個退休的法治官他在回台灣了他都是很有經驗的那麼在上面做一個兩個禮拜的這個"},{"start":104.64,"end":118.651,"text":"這是一個很棒的一個流程那麼這個可以解免很多的誤解甚至避免外面的一些誤判這個圖是所有跟DSEA相關的美國的這個部會那這個圖裡面每個單位的工作值都有"},{"start":120.333,"end":143.549,"text":"這張圖裏面就是我們現在只強調的是國防安和局承辦業務然後各軍有自己的對等單位剛才在簡報師長提到了但是只是帶過去他真正的就是下面有一個controller一個等於說他一個審計長的辦公室他是副等於說助理是次長級的"},{"start":144.77,"end":149.431,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。"},{"start":171.415,"end":185.889,"text":"團隊提出希望軍售也能有一個公和在美國軍售的採購作業規範是沒有公和的但是我們國內要求公和但是公和的比例是多少呢?case 不同"},{"start":187.113,"end":214.875,"text":"那怎麼做呢?如果你要攻核假設10億你說10%那就是加1億這1億美國國防部是不管的就把這1億變成我們簽10億的約負11億的款把那1億轉給廠商了但這個廠商給你合作的計轉計協分配下去呢又變成美元點所以這個裡面就變成有些落實有些不落實那美國廠商對攻核外包的東西"},{"start":215.865,"end":242.87,"text":"美國國防部不在乎這個時候又產生了如果我們是單一採購案或者是二度採購案或者是加入其他國家幾個國家的採購案這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本這個叫做sink capital或non-recurrency那這個東西每個case都不一樣如果這些案子我們在國內的是掌握不住的"},{"start":243.49,"end":265.55,"text":"那能不能由駐美軍事代表團的採購組他有律師顧問定期啊除了配合我們國內的訪團去督察以外要跟美方的這個DCAA要多做溝通而不是軍售官跟DSEA做溝通那這兩個案子啊如果你把它放在一起看的話就產生了一個"},{"start":267.232,"end":287.864,"text":"軍售因為要攻核所以就外加外加款是國軍付錢但實質在美軍外加款是轉包給他的合約廠商這個合約廠商能夠給我們的寄轉寄協或是部分分工變成美元點美元點在過去有一半"},{"start":289.645,"end":317.68,"text":"給我們的軍備局給中科院那有一部分呢就直接分給工業局就跟我們國內的廠商那在這個細節裡面呢有很多東西是定義不清的不是誰對誰錯那這個時候如果我們的律師會計師在這個細節裡面沒有從開始先律定而只是從軍事單位各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求這個地方細節我們就看不到了"},{"start":318.3,"end":346.448,"text":"所以這個裏面這一段錯誤不在國內只是誠意甚高要把法律上要求軍售要有公和於是產生了一個額外追加預算增加的預算但美軍說我不管你這段增加我就直接包給合約廠商那這個裏面一個案子如果做10年10年的公和禁忌有多少那等美軍的DCEA再來審查的時候也許在裏面就發現有一些"},{"start":346.988,"end":347.148,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":367.967,"end":390.948,"text":"不管是LOR它出處的一個參考架或是到後面要簽LOA這個裡面的項目項次非常多200項、300項那這個我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查而不是軍種單位提出申請他看這個我要、我要、我要就全包裹收了那這個東西能做好"},{"start":391.408,"end":419.951,"text":"我認為在往後的軍售案以美國這麼多年它的軍售案是不賺不賠但是履約督導是DCAA我們要去配合不是光DSEA所以我剛才提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班請我們過去有一些有經驗的有法制的有採購的替我們同仁上課或者是未來有機會加入的這個同仁做一個上課以上是我做一個建議"},{"start":420.692,"end":426.859,"text":"另外一個就是有關的商售啊商售我們都要求公和可是如果是國軍軍備局來買"},{"start":429.633,"end":429.893,"text":"陳永康、陳永康"},{"start":458.217,"end":475.486,"text":"．．"},{"start":475.586,"end":478.328,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":495.871,"end":496.171,"text":"：陳永康：陳永康："},{"start":519.462,"end":526.724,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。"},{"start":547.35,"end":573.465,"text":"並沒有人要擋國防預算那麼我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢花在刀口上而且為國家國家安全為社會能夠奠定一個更好的基礎包括民間的產業那剛才有一個談到就是希望變成美國的供應鏈要加入美國的這個協會其實過去您曉得就是說你要加入條件是你要做國內的滴滴嘛"},{"start":574.085,"end":595.413,"text":"你現在根據美國的標準我們國內很多廠商是不合格的就像你剛剛講的廠設施要隔離專案要隔離這個安全設施要照美國的標準來驗收而不是我們國內廠商或者一般委員想像中只要登記就入門入門就變成供應鏈這個我希望找機會部長那邊能夠幫忙做個說明"},{"start":597.178,"end":619.694,"text":"跟委員報告吼,那個攻核的這個部分呢,現在我們就採事後攻核,也就是說之前我們,事前,因此它計轉的這一個部分呢,有時候跟我們要買的這個武器相關的這些關鍵技術有關,所以我們現在是採事後攻核,也就是說我們要求這個廠商要"},{"start":621.195,"end":642.709,"text":"要認定他願意移轉相關的這些軍事我們要採購的軍事武器相關的這些關鍵技術的這個部分放在整備數裡面我們才會願意做這個公和的點數如果他沒有同意的話我們現在原則上就不再接受這個用公和的點數來增加我們的國防預算那就這個部分"},{"start":643.149,"end":664.979,"text":"那旅業督導的部分剛剛應該也提到了確實這個部分我們也還有在精進的空間那我想剛剛委員建議的就是說我們如何來加強這些整個軍售也好或者商購也好或者是關於旅業督導相關的這個精進的流程我們會再來檢視然後再來"},{"start":668.2,"end":682.388,"text":"看看還有什麼地方可以再精進那甚至可以跟美方來進行這個就是說在共同來檢討有關相當缺失尤其經過這一次的事件之後"},{"start":685.381,"end":703.858,"text":"謝謝部長。那站位司司長是不是您補充做一個說明,就是說後面我們這個東西大家如何共同來進行。關於那個強化我們建案跟採購人員技能的這個部分,我們會納入後續我們建案的利益培養跟相關的規劃去辦理。"},{"start":705.461,"end":721.573,"text":"那有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售跟商售集合的這個問題,我們下去之後也會配合法律師跟採購師這邊來做一個通盤的檢討。好,謝謝。我們大家共同努力。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:25:32 - 11:37:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155153,"gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（11時25分）主席、各位同仁，大家好。我們請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長好。我還是要針對軍售案的過程提出一些建言，是不是請戰規司司長及採購室主任一起？","在機密報告中聽到一部分東西的作業流程與我現在要提的是很接近，所以我就點到為止，只是表達目前的幾個關鍵性問題。","第一個是美國國防部安全合作局與其各部門的關係，這裡面的每一個都有文件的論述，我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做更深入的瞭解。剛才有很多同仁提到是不是查弊啦、是不是哪個單位發現啦？其實我要針對這個作業流程提出一個建言，為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或是媒體的誤解，我們可以請戰規司、法律司及採購室在國防大學管理學院舉辦一個短期的兩個禮拜班，聘請過去有經驗的老師，甚至是前陣子駐美的一位退休法制官，現在已經回來臺灣了。他們都是相當具有經驗，請他們進行兩個禮拜的強化教學，對於現職或是未來準備參與這個作業的同仁，這是一個很棒的流程，也可以減免很多的誤解，甚至避免外面的一些誤判。","這個圖是所有與DSCA相關的美國部會，在這個圖裡面每個單位的工作職都有，但是我們現在對這張圖只強調的是國防安合局承辦業務，各軍有自己的對等單位。剛才司長也在簡報中提到了，但只是帶過去而已，其實它真正的是下面的一個controller，也就是審計長的辦公室，等於是次長級的，在它的底下有一個DCAA，也就是Defense Contract Audit Agency。其實我們的專案在進行的時候，無論是與廠商的細部審查、合約執行、履約督導及付款細節，這個單位會針對每個案子進行調查。","過去我們國內因為基於善意，當年的團隊就提出希望軍售也能有一個工合，然而在美國的軍售採購作業規範中並沒有工合，但是我們國內要求工合，而且工合的比例是多少呢？可以是不同，那麼要怎麼做呢？如果你要工合，假設10億元，你說要10%，那就是加1億元。對於這個1億元，美國國防部是不管的，變成我們簽10億元的約、付11億元的款，把那個1億元轉給廠商了。但是這個廠商給你合作的技轉、技協分配下去又變成美元點，所以這裡面就變成有些落實、有些不落實。美國國防部對於美國廠商工合外包的東西並不care，這個時候又產生了問題，如果我們是單一採購案、或是二度採購案、或是加入其他幾個國家的採購案，這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本？這個叫做sink capital或non-recurrency，這個東西在每個case都不一樣，我們在國內對這些案子是掌握不住的，能不能由駐美軍事代表團採購組的律師、顧問，除了定期配合我們國內的訪團去督察之外，也要與美方的DCAA多做溝通，而不是軍售只與DSCA做溝通。","如果你把這兩個案子放在一起看，就會產生軍售因為要工合而外加，外加款是國軍付錢，但實質對美軍而言，外加款是轉包給它的合約廠商。這個合約廠商能夠給我們的技轉、技協或部分分工變成美元點，美元點在過去有一半給我們的軍備局、給中科院，有一部分就直接分給工業局或我們國內的廠商。在這個細節裡面，有很多東西定義不清，並不是誰對誰錯，如果這個時候我們的律師、會計師在細節裡面沒有從開始就先律定，只是從軍事單位、各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求，我們就看不到這個地方裡面的細節了。因此，這一段的錯誤不在國內，只是誠意甚高，由於法律上要求軍售要有工合，於是產生了一個額外追加的預算，雖然增加了預算，但美軍並不管我們的預算增加，它就是直接包給合約廠商。如果一個案子做了10年，10年的工合進去會有多少，等美軍的DCAA再來審查的時候，也許就會發現裡面有一些不周延、或是有灌水、或是有稀釋、甚至與其他幾個國家共同參與，但是有人是第一次參與、有人是第二次參與，那麼要當年的研發成本分擔費，我們在國內有的時候是看不清楚的。","至於一個重大的軍售案，不管是LOR出處的參考價，或是到後面要簽LOA，這個裡面的項目、項次非常多，200項、300項，我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查，而不是軍種單位提出申請，看到這個我要我要就全包都收了。這個東西能做好，我認為對於往後的軍售案，以美國這麼多年軍售案不賺不賠而言，它負責履約督導的是DCAA，我們要去配合，不光只有DSCA，因此，剛才我提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班，聘請過去一些有法制、採購等經驗的人替我們的同仁上課或是為未來有機會加入的同仁上課，以上是我們所提的一個建議。","另外是關於商售的部分，我們都要求商售要工合，但如果是國軍軍備局來買而簽這個約，我們可以督導商售的工合所占的百分比，這個占的百分比又換成美元點，美元點打對折，1萬美元只是1萬美元點，可能只有5,000美元的價值，再分給我們南部的廠商，或是軍備局分給中科院，這個是後來要進一步討論。現在有一個案子，比方講潛艦案，因為你的主合約商是台船公司，台船公司簽這個約的時候，合約細節裡面的但書、履約督導、執行的過程，如果國軍沒有同步參與，可能這個工合一個是沒有了，第二個是如果還有，那麼是轉給誰？我覺得這個細節都是我們可以共同努力監督的。","這次的案子是美方內部發現，我相信是DCAA本身auditing看出來了，最後才由司法部門介入，因為它不能處分它。這些東西的過程不只是我們的戰規司、採購室、軍備局，大家都覺得這個重點值得我們在課程上要強化一下，所以我個人做一個建言，希望我們能由部長指示國防大學安排這個課程，再由我們的戰規司、法律司、採購室及軍備局找好的老師、有經驗的退休人員，給我們的幕僚做一個課程的教導，濃縮這個時間，而不是被外界帶風向。","另外我還要提出一個建議，剛才有人說在野黨擋國防預算，我向你做個說明，我們是希望現在總預算裡面的部分要重編，不可以對法律通過的部分置之不理，這個需要行政院與立法院做溝通，而且現在也在溝通中，所以不要誤導了，並沒有人要擋國防預算。我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢都花在刀口上，而且為國家安全、為社會奠定更好的基礎，包括民間的產業。","剛才有談到希望能變成美國的供應鏈，要加入美國的協會，其實過去你講的加入條件是做國內的DD，但是根據美國的標準，現在我們國內很多廠商是不合格的。誠如你剛剛講的，廠設施要隔離、專案要隔離，安全設施要照美國的標準驗收，而不是我們國內廠商或一般委員想像中的只要登記就入門，入了門就變成供應鏈，我希望部長能夠找機會幫忙說明。"],["顧部長立雄：報告委員，工合的部分，我們現在是採事後工合，也就是說……"],["林局長文祥：事前。"],["顧部長立雄：事前，因此，關於技轉的部分，有時候與我們要買的武器相關關鍵技術無關，所以我們現在是採事前工合，也就是我們要求廠商認定它願意移轉我們採購的軍事武器相關的關鍵技術，放在整規書裡面，我們才會願意做這個工合的點數。如果它沒有同意的話，原則上，我們現在就不再接受用工合的點數來增加我們的國防預算。至於履約督導的部分，剛剛應該也提到了，我們在這個部分確實還有再精進的空間。剛剛委員建議的是要如何加強整個軍售、商購或是與履約督導相關的精進流程，我們會再來檢視，看看還有哪些地方可以再精進，甚至可以與美方再共同檢討相關的缺失，尤其是經過這次的事件之後。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長，戰規司司長是不是要補充說明，這個東西後面要如何精進？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，關於強化我們建案與採購人員技能的部分，我們會納入後續建案能力培養與相關規劃去辦理。有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售及商售稽核的問題，我們下去之後也會配合法律司及採購室做一個通盤的檢討。"],["陳委員永康：好，我們大家共同努力，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員的指導。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：請林憶君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}