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00:00:18,801\n三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第\n\n3\n00:00:35,573 --> 00:01:00,809\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:所以其實在現行的法規裡面已經有相關的補助了對嗎?社會救助法裡面已經有規範了那如果照我們今天由委員提案的版本也在殯葬的條例裡面放入中低收的這個補助那會不會跟社會救助法之間有任何的漢格或是重複或者是接下來會有執行上至愛難行的地方?\n\n4\n00:01:01,049 --> 00:01:14,459\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條\n\n5\n00:01:28,359 --> 00:01:29,840\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:\n\n6\n00:01:49,993 --> 00:02:03,160\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n\n7\n00:02:16,389 --> 00:02:27,201\n二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n\n8\n00:02:32,947 --> 00:02:34,369\n一條之一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條\n\n9\n00:02:49,887 --> 00:02:55,629\n一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n\n10\n00:03:17,598 --> 00:03:18,058\n一條之一條文修正草案案。»:審查委員審查委員\n\n11\n00:03:41,608 --> 00:03:48,415\n三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n\n12\n00:04:00,987 --> 00:04:03,869\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n\n13\n00:04:19,557 --> 00:04:21,598\n一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條\n\n14\n00:04:47,356 --> 00:05:00,786\n三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第\n\n15\n00:05:17,583 --> 00:05:44,566\n三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案案件是否會離目標越來越遠?所以我看到我也是認為說那這樣的方向離我們當初希望去把這些公保地做公共設施然後讓它符合原本的這個公益的用途這個是一種土地正義嘛那照這樣的目標我們是不是應該研擬其他的方式讓徵收公保地這一條路變得更可行?\n\n16\n00:05:45,595 --> 00:06:01,373\n也跟委員報告,其實從實務上來講中央反而是目前所有的這個建設補助是集中在工程費、建設費用是用地本來就是地方要去取得所以榮譽本來就是應該做這條路\n\n17\n00:06:02,794 --> 00:06:26,165\n一條之一條文修正草案案。lapt�依去取得公保地以後再來跟中央爭取建設補助這就是正軌那如果是再把這個錢又移去做建設費用的話那反而對於要去取得土地會越來越困難到時候就更沒有財政的財政上能夠去負擔這個這個也是我們在地方常常遇到的一個很實際的困難所以我想要最後請教署長的就是說\n\n18\n00:06:27,165 --> 00:06:40,308\n一條之一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委\n\n19\n00:06:48,470 --> 00:07:14,663\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:這個部分跟委員報告我們當然就是現在目前每年都會去查核他的那個貸金的使用的狀況第二個就是說我們未來應該是要再加強說跟地方政府的溝通第二個應該要指定他們去訂出他的一個具體的使用的期程比如說像高雄市政府他就是有多少就去徵收多少那這樣子的話等於有一個明確的執行計劃\n\n20\n00:07:15,683 --> 00:07:16,143\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4107\t4912\t一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:\n8673\t18801\t三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第\n35573\t60809\t三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:所以其實在現行的法規裡面已經有相關的補助了對嗎?社會救助法裡面已經有規範了那如果照我們今天由委員提案的版本也在殯葬的條例裡面放入中低收的這個補助那會不會跟社會救助法之間有任何的漢格或是重複或者是接下來會有執行上至愛難行的地方?\n61049\t74459\t三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條\n88359\t89840\t三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:\n109993\t123160\t三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n136389\t147201\t二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n152947\t154369\t一條之一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條\n169887\t175629\t一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n197598\t198058\t一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員審查委員\n221608\t228415\t三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n240987\t243869\t三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n259557\t261598\t一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條\n287356\t300786\t三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第\n317583\t344566\t三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案 案件是否會離目標越來越遠?所以我看到我也是認為說那這樣的方向離我們當初希望去把這些公保地做公共設施然後讓它符合原本的這個公益的用途這個是一種土地正義嘛那照這樣的目標我們是不是應該研擬其他的方式讓徵收公保地這一條路變得更可行?\n345595\t361373\t也跟委員報告,其實從實務上來講中央反而是目前所有的這個建設補助是集中在工程費、建設費用是用地本來就是地方要去取得所以榮譽本來就是應該做這條路\n362794\t386165\t一條之一條文修正草案案。 lapt�依去取得公保地以後再來跟中央爭取建設補助這就是正軌那如果是再把這個錢又移去做建設費用的話那反而對於要去取得土地會越來越困難到時候就更沒有財政的財政上能夠去負擔這個這個也是我們在地方常常遇到的一個很實際的困難所以我想要最後請教署長的就是說\n387165\t400308\t一條之一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委\n408470\t434663\t三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:這個部分跟委員報告我們當然就是現在目前每年都會去查核他的那個貸金的使用的狀況第二個就是說我們未來應該是要再加強說跟地方政府的溝通第二個應該要指定他們去訂出他的一個具體的使用的期程比如說像高雄市政府他就是有多少就去徵收多少那這樣子的話等於有一個明確的執行計劃\n435683\t436143\t三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:\n","txt":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:\n三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第\n三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:所以其實在現行的法規裡面已經有相關的補助了對嗎?社會救助法裡面已經有規範了那如果照我們今天由委員提案的版本也在殯葬的條例裡面放入中低收的這個補助那會不會跟社會救助法之間有任何的漢格或是重複或者是接下來會有執行上至愛難行的地方?\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條\n三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n一條之一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條\n一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員審查委員\n三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條\n三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第\n三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案 案件是否會離目標越來越遠?所以我看到我也是認為說那這樣的方向離我們當初希望去把這些公保地做公共設施然後讓它符合原本的這個公益的用途這個是一種土地正義嘛那照這樣的目標我們是不是應該研擬其他的方式讓徵收公保地這一條路變得更可行?\n也跟委員報告,其實從實務上來講中央反而是目前所有的這個建設補助是集中在工程費、建設費用是用地本來就是地方要去取得所以榮譽本來就是應該做這條路\n一條之一條文修正草案案。 lapt�依去取得公保地以後再來跟中央爭取建設補助這就是正軌那如果是再把這個錢又移去做建設費用的話那反而對於要去取得土地會越來越困難到時候就更沒有財政的財政上能夠去負擔這個這個也是我們在地方常常遇到的一個很實際的困難所以我想要最後請教署長的就是說\n一條之一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委\n三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:這個部分跟委員報告我們當然就是現在目前每年都會去查核他的那個貸金的使用的狀況第二個就是說我們未來應該是要再加強說跟地方政府的溝通第二個應該要指定他們去訂出他的一個具體的使用的期程比如說像高雄市政府他就是有多少就去徵收多少那這樣子的話等於有一個明確的執行計劃\n三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.107 --> 00:04.912\n一條之一條文修正草案案。»:\n\n00:08.673 --> 00:18.801\n三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第\n\n00:35.573 --> 01:00.809\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:所以其實在現行的法規裡面已經有相關的補助了對嗎?社會救助法裡面已經有規範了那如果照我們今天由委員提案的版本也在殯葬的條例裡面放入中低收的這個補助那會不會跟社會救助法之間有任何的漢格或是重複或者是接下來會有執行上至愛難行的地方?\n\n01:01.049 --> 01:14.459\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條\n\n01:28.359 --> 01:29.840\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:\n\n01:49.993 --> 02:03.160\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n\n02:16.389 --> 02:27.201\n二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n\n02:32.947 --> 02:34.369\n一條之一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條\n\n02:49.887 --> 02:55.629\n一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修\n\n03:17.598 --> 03:18.058\n一條之一條文修正草案案。»:審查委員審查委員\n\n03:41.608 --> 03:48.415\n三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n\n04:00.987 --> 04:03.869\n三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十\n\n04:19.557 --> 04:21.598\n一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條\n\n04:47.356 --> 05:00.786\n三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第\n\n05:17.583 --> 05:44.566\n三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案案件是否會離目標越來越遠?所以我看到我也是認為說那這樣的方向離我們當初希望去把這些公保地做公共設施然後讓它符合原本的這個公益的用途這個是一種土地正義嘛那照這樣的目標我們是不是應該研擬其他的方式讓徵收公保地這一條路變得更可行?\n\n05:45.595 --> 06:01.373\n也跟委員報告,其實從實務上來講中央反而是目前所有的這個建設補助是集中在工程費、建設費用是用地本來就是地方要去取得所以榮譽本來就是應該做這條路\n\n06:02.794 --> 06:26.165\n一條之一條文修正草案案。lapt�依去取得公保地以後再來跟中央爭取建設補助這就是正軌那如果是再把這個錢又移去做建設費用的話那反而對於要去取得土地會越來越困難到時候就更沒有財政的財政上能夠去負擔這個這個也是我們在地方常常遇到的一個很實際的困難所以我想要最後請教署長的就是說\n\n06:27.165 --> 06:40.308\n一條之一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委\n\n06:48.470 --> 07:14.663\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:這個部分跟委員報告我們當然就是現在目前每年都會去查核他的那個貸金的使用的狀況第二個就是說我們未來應該是要再加強說跟地方政府的溝通第二個應該要指定他們去訂出他的一個具體的使用的期程比如說像高雄市政府他就是有多少就去徵收多少那這樣子的話等於有一個明確的執行計劃\n\n07:15.683 --> 07:16.143\n三條之一條文修正草案案。»:\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.107,"end":4.912,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 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11:14:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":155159,"gazette":{"lineno":549,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時7分）好，謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。今天審議的殯葬管理條例，我看了一下，其實現在的內容我覺得有一個很明確，現行的社會救助法裡面針對殯葬補助是怎麼規定的？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們在現行的社會救助法裡面說得非常清楚，有關於喪葬補助，在社會救助法裡面有明定，也是全國統一的規範。"],["黃委員捷：所以，其實在現行的法規裡面已經有相關的補助了，對嗎？"],["林司長清淇：社會救助法裡面已經有規範了。"],["黃委員捷：如果照今天由委員提案的版本，也在殯葬管理條例裡面放入對中低收的補助，會不會跟社會救助法之間有任何扞格或是重複，或者接下來會有執行上窒礙難行的地方？"],["林司長清淇：我們認為會有一些重複的問題，另外一個就是既然有領了補助，但這邊又免費，那該如何去區分？另外一個就是涉及到地方財政收跟支相關的問題，就是它們在裡面是不同科目的問題，這個部分還是要地方政府來處理。所以我們是覺得目前這個問題當然要審慎考量，不宜這樣處理，而且這個是屬於地方自治事項，原則上應該要尊重地方政府的決定來處理。"],["黃委員捷：是。其實照你們說的，我今天看到這個修法的內容，就會覺得這兩個法規很明顯是有矛盾的，就像你們說的，接下來如果窒礙難行，今天又照這樣修過了，未來地方政府到底要如何在兩個項目不同，然後又重複補助，一個是免收，一個是他們給予需要的特定戶補助，中間是不是會有重複的問題，我認為這個應該要審慎的考慮。再來就是針對我們今天的會議，你們有徵詢過全臺灣所有縣市的意見嗎？如果有的話，可不可以初步告訴大家，現在各縣市願意照今天這個修法修下去嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們問了22個縣市，都是有條件的同意，也就是縣市地方政府跟中央政府，還有跟委員都一樣，我們都很樂意在中低收入戶，尤其是在喪葬方面幫忙；但是屬於補助經費或者是屬於免收經費，會牽涉到各縣市地方政府的地方制度法，還有財政收支劃分法、財政紀律法這三個不同的條文。我們如果重複會造成譬如說地方縣市政府是不是有圖利，或是有其他在財政紀律上面的困擾，這是我們所碰到的最大的麻煩，所以我們才會覺得說，讓內政部可以跟衛福部及各地方縣市政府來做好好的規範，如果可以規範出來，22個縣市政府都同意這樣的方向的話，其實我們並不會反對，大家都知道要照顧弱勢。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：但是重複照顧弱勢的話，會讓弱勢團體覺得自己沒有那麼貪，他們只願意把喪葬的後續處理好就可以了，不需要有這種又領了補助又有免收，這個反而會造成雙重的壓力。縣市地方政府，包括一些鄉鎮公所，因為很多鄰避設施也放在鄉鎮公所，他們會覺得說，他們以前有很大的壓力，把鄰避設施放在自己的鄉鎮，現在免收的幅度大的話，就減低了他們鄉鎮公所的收入，這樣子的話，他們會覺得說，反而對他們造成不公平，有些鄉鎮公所我就不特別提了。這就是我們現在在這上面面臨的一個困擾，就是方向大家都一樣，但是在執行上面的話，如果造成重複補助或重複免收，或者是在收的過程當中有一些不同意見的話，反而會造成財政收支上面的困擾。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。其實我覺得部長說得非常清楚，就是大家的目標都一樣，能夠盡最大的能力、最大的範圍去補助最多需要照顧到的弱勢，但是我認為執行上真的有非常多細節需要好好地討論，到底用什麼方式可以最直接而且有效地幫助到這些需要幫助的人？我相信等一下的修法我們就進到這樣子的細節，做最具體而且負責任的規劃，這是我希望等一下審查的時候可以來討論的。","至於都市計畫法，其實我看到今天的修法意見，我認為是跟我們的目標不相符的，因為其實如剛剛柏毅委員提到的，就連我們高雄，確實現在都還有很多公保地政府沒有錢去徵收。用這個代金的方式當然是一個方向，可是現在的代金已經沒有辦法如當初的精神去徵收公保地了，請問署長，是這樣嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：如果現在再修法的話，就會背離原來希望容移代金去徵收的……"],["黃委員捷：是不是會離目標越來越遠？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["黃委員捷：所以我看到後也是認為說，這樣的方向遠離我們當初希望把這些公保地做公共設施，然後讓它符合原本公益的用途，這個是一種土地正義嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["黃委員捷：照這樣的目標，我們是不是應該要研擬其他的方式，讓徵收公保地這一條路變得更可行？"],["吳署長欣修：也跟委員報告，其實從實務上來講，中央目前是所有建設補助集中在工程費、建設費用，用地本來就是地方要去取得，所以容移本來就是應該做這條路，容移去取得公保地以後，再來跟中央爭取建設補助，這就是正軌。如果再把這個錢移去做建設費用的話，反而取得土地會越來越困難，到時候財政上就更不能夠負擔這個問題。"],["黃委員捷：這也是我們在地方上常常遇到的一個很實際的困難，所以我最後想要請教署長，照目前的條例，看起來其實各地方的代金滿多的，但是發不出去，因為大家也覺得說那乾脆都不要動，那該怎麼辦？我希望的是你們也要更負責任，而且更具體地想到底有什麼方式讓地方政府願意把收到的這些代金真的拿去花在土地費用上。"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分跟委員報告，我們現在當然每年都會去查核代金使用的狀況。第二個，我們未來應該要再加強跟地方政府溝通，應該要指定他們去定出具體使用的期程，比如說像高雄市政府就是有多少就去徵收多少。"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["吳署長欣修：這樣子的話，等於有一個明確的執行計畫，接下來我們應該要來陸續要求地方政府訂定明確的執行計畫。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：讓這個事情能夠更落實，不要再轉移到其他的方向去了。"],["黃委員捷：我希望我們國土署接下來可以跟地方政府督促，並且朝這個方向執行，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們會來努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃捷委員。","接下來請牛煦庭委員。","跟委員會報告，丁學忠委員詢答完後處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}}