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\"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 514.77, \"end\": 514.79, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 514.79, \"end\": 514.81, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"火\", \"start\": 514.81, \"end\": 514.91, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 514.91, \"end\": 514.93, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"雷\", \"start\": 514.93, \"end\": 514.97, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"神\", \"start\": 514.97, \"end\": 514.99, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 514.99, \"end\": 515.01, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"售\", \"start\": 515.01, \"end\": 515.07, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 515.07, \"end\": 515.11, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": 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642.026, \"text\": \"這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個黨路供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 625.452, \"end\": 625.673, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 625.673, \"end\": 626.013, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 626.013, \"end\": 626.193, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 626.193, \"end\": 626.313, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 626.313, \"end\": 626.433, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 626.433, \"end\": 626.954, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 626.954, \"end\": 627.114, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 627.114, \"end\": 627.654, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 627.654, \"end\": 627.995, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 627.995, \"end\": 628.155, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 628.155, 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635.701, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 635.701, \"end\": 635.881, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 635.881, \"end\": 636.021, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 636.021, \"end\": 636.241, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 636.241, \"end\": 636.541, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 636.541, \"end\": 636.862, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 636.862, \"end\": 637.923, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 637.923, \"end\": 639.664, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 639.664, \"end\": 639.904, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 639.904, \"end\": 640.044, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 640.044, \"end\": 640.164, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 640.164, \"end\": 640.445, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 790.752, \"end\": 791.093, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 791.093, \"end\": 791.253, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 791.253, \"end\": 791.413, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 791.413, \"end\": 791.513, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 791.513, \"end\": 791.553, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 791.553, \"end\": 791.633, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 791.633, \"end\": 791.653, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:23,892\n我們請部長有請顧部長還有站規室的黃師長陳委員部長好師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上臺灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法\n\n2\n00:00:24,738 --> 00:00:34,090\n但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做\n\n3\n00:00:37,848 --> 00:00:54,705\n報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎\n\n4\n00:00:56,119 --> 00:01:23,238\n對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府\n\n5\n00:01:23,738 --> 00:01:39,640\n美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子\n\n6\n00:01:41,740 --> 00:02:06,326\n這一次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到的問題我們是想要知道說在我方我們可以的作為是什麼所以剛才部長說可以靠\n\n7\n00:02:08,146 --> 00:02:08,446\n重建這案\n\n8\n00:02:32,992 --> 00:02:59,299\n重建策案您講的是那個重建稍早有說空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情重建策案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換\n\n9\n00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:24,995\n那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是哪個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了\n\n10\n00:03:30,998 --> 00:03:33,380\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n11\n00:03:54,198 --> 00:03:55,959\n二、針對美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及後續因應及精進作為\n\n12\n00:04:15,809 --> 00:04:37,869\n的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下\n\n13\n00:04:38,049 --> 00:05:05,081\n你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解\n\n14\n00:05:07,702 --> 00:05:23,974\n這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等\n\n15\n00:05:24,815 --> 00:05:54,127\n美國一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項這台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面\n\n16\n00:05:56,399 --> 00:06:18,287\n這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能\n\n17\n00:06:19,287 --> 00:06:20,168\n美國的方面呢﹖\n\n18\n00:06:40,467 --> 00:06:56,192\n根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會\n\n19\n00:06:57,893 --> 00:06:58,033\n好,謝謝部長。\n\n20\n00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:43,625\n會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的\n\n21\n00:07:46,406 --> 00:08:11,408\n剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品\n\n22\n00:08:12,228 --> 00:08:34,550\n還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法\n\n23\n00:08:34,770 --> 00:08:44,937\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續\n\n24\n00:09:04,626 --> 00:09:27,374\n．協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接下還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在\n\n25\n00:09:31,616 --> 00:09:32,236\n委員：陳冠廷委員：陳冠廷\n\n26\n00:10:00,869 --> 00:10:21,169\n國防部答應,我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止。然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成。那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。\n\n27\n00:10:25,452 --> 00:10:42,026\n這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個黨路供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業\n\n28\n00:10:43,587 --> 00:10:57,798\n那另外一方面透過跨部會的一個協助來給他進行補助進行研發那另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外呢我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的這個供應鏈的這個生態系要能夠建立起來這樣那才有持續性\n\n29\n00:11:04,924 --> 00:11:31,794\n謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場\n\n30\n00:11:32,794 --> 00:11:59,240\n所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是\n\n31\n00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:28,235\n你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同\n\n32\n00:12:29,937 --> 00:12:50,752\n我想應該委員應該要我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對\n\n33\n00:12:52,233 --> 00:12:52,994\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n\n34\n00:13:10,612 --> 00:13:11,653\n謝謝院長。那我就要了解了。謝謝。是。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t23892\t我們請部長有請顧部長還有站規室的黃師長陳委員部長好 師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上臺灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法\n24738\t34090\t但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做\n37848\t54705\t報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎\n56119\t83238\t對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府\n83738\t99640\t美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子\n101740\t126326\t這一次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到的問題我們是想要知道說在我方我們可以的作為是什麼所以剛才部長說可以靠\n128146\t128446\t重建這案\n152992\t179299\t重建策案您講的是那個重建稍早有說空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情重建策案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換\n181280\t204995\t那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是哪個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了\n210998\t213380\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n234198\t235959\t二、針對美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及後續因應及精進作為\n255809\t277869\t的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下\n278049\t305081\t你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解\n307702\t323974\t這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等\n324815\t354127\t美國一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項這台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面\n356399\t378287\t這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能\n379287\t380168\t美國的方面呢﹖\n400467\t416192\t根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會\n417893\t418033\t好,謝謝部長。\n444520\t463625\t會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的\n466406\t491408\t剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品\n492228\t514550\t還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法\n514770\t524937\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續\n544626\t567374\t．協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接下還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在\n571616\t572236\t委員：陳冠廷委員：陳冠廷\n600869\t621169\t國防部答應,我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止。然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成。那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。\n625452\t642026\t這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個黨路供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業\n643587\t657798\t那另外一方面透過跨部會的一個協助來給他進行補助進行研發那另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外呢我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的這個供應鏈的這個生態系要能夠建立起來這樣那才有持續性\n664924\t691794\t謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場\n692794\t719240\t所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是\n720280\t748235\t你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同\n749937\t770752\t我想應該 委員應該要 我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思 我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對\n772233\t772994\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n790612\t791653\t謝謝院長。那我就要了解了。謝謝。是。\n","txt":"我們請部長有請顧部長還有站規室的黃師長陳委員部長好 師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上臺灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法\n但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做\n報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎\n對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府\n美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子\n這一次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到的問題我們是想要知道說在我方我們可以的作為是什麼所以剛才部長說可以靠\n重建這案\n重建策案您講的是那個重建稍早有說空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情重建策案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換\n那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是哪個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n二、針對美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及後續因應及精進作為\n的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下\n你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解\n這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等\n美國一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項這台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面\n這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能\n美國的方面呢﹖\n根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會\n好,謝謝部長。\n會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的\n剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品\n還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續\n．協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接下還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在\n委員：陳冠廷委員：陳冠廷\n國防部答應,我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止。然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成。那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。\n這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個黨路供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業\n那另外一方面透過跨部會的一個協助來給他進行補助進行研發那另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外呢我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的這個供應鏈的這個生態系要能夠建立起來這樣那才有持續性\n謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場\n所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是\n你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同\n我想應該 委員應該要 我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思 我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n謝謝院長。那我就要了解了。謝謝。是。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:23.892\n我們請部長有請顧部長還有站規室的黃師長陳委員部長好師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上臺灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法\n\n00:24.738 --> 00:34.090\n但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做\n\n00:37.848 --> 00:54.705\n報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎\n\n00:56.119 --> 01:23.238\n對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府\n\n01:23.738 --> 01:39.640\n美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子\n\n01:41.740 --> 02:06.326\n這一次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到的問題我們是想要知道說在我方我們可以的作為是什麼所以剛才部長說可以靠\n\n02:08.146 --> 02:08.446\n重建這案\n\n02:32.992 --> 02:59.299\n重建策案您講的是那個重建稍早有說空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情重建策案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換\n\n03:01.280 --> 03:24.995\n那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是哪個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了\n\n03:30.998 --> 03:33.380\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n03:54.198 --> 03:55.959\n二、針對美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及後續因應及精進作為\n\n04:15.809 --> 04:37.869\n的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下\n\n04:38.049 --> 05:05.081\n你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解\n\n05:07.702 --> 05:23.974\n這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等\n\n05:24.815 --> 05:54.127\n美國一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項這台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面\n\n05:56.399 --> 06:18.287\n這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能\n\n06:19.287 --> 06:20.168\n美國的方面呢﹖\n\n06:40.467 --> 06:56.192\n根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會\n\n06:57.893 --> 06:58.033\n好,謝謝部長。\n\n07:24.520 --> 07:43.625\n會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的\n\n07:46.406 --> 08:11.408\n剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品\n\n08:12.228 --> 08:34.550\n還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法\n\n08:34.770 --> 08:44.937\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續\n\n09:04.626 --> 09:27.374\n．協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接下還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在\n\n09:31.616 --> 09:32.236\n委員：陳冠廷委員：陳冠廷\n\n10:00.869 --> 10:21.169\n國防部答應,我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止。然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成。那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。\n\n10:25.452 --> 10:42.026\n這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個黨路供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業\n\n10:43.587 --> 10:57.798\n那另外一方面透過跨部會的一個協助來給他進行補助進行研發那另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外呢我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的這個供應鏈的這個生態系要能夠建立起來這樣那才有持續性\n\n11:04.924 --> 11:31.794\n謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場\n\n11:32.794 --> 11:59.240\n所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是\n\n12:00.280 --> 12:28.235\n你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同\n\n12:29.937 --> 12:50.752\n我想應該委員應該要我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對\n\n12:52.233 --> 12:52.994\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n\n13:10.612 --> 13:11.653\n謝謝院長。那我就要了解了。謝謝。是。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":23.892,"text":"我們請部長有請顧部長還有站規室的黃師長陳委員部長好 師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上臺灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法"},{"start":24.738,"end":34.09,"text":"但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做"},{"start":37.848,"end":54.705,"text":"報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎"},{"start":56.119,"end":83.238,"text":"對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府"},{"start":83.738,"end":99.64,"text":"美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子"},{"start":101.74,"end":126.326,"text":"這一次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到的問題我們是想要知道說在我方我們可以的作為是什麼所以剛才部長說可以靠"},{"start":128.146,"end":128.446,"text":"重建這案"},{"start":152.992,"end":179.299,"text":"重建策案您講的是那個重建稍早有說空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情重建策案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換"},{"start":181.28,"end":204.995,"text":"那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是哪個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了"},{"start":210.998,"end":213.38,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":234.198,"end":235.959,"text":"二、針對美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":255.809,"end":277.869,"text":"的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下"},{"start":278.049,"end":305.081,"text":"你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解"},{"start":307.702,"end":323.974,"text":"這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等"},{"start":324.815,"end":354.127,"text":"美國一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項這台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面"},{"start":356.399,"end":378.287,"text":"這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能"},{"start":379.287,"end":380.168,"text":"美國的方面呢﹖"},{"start":400.467,"end":416.192,"text":"根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會"},{"start":417.893,"end":418.033,"text":"好,謝謝部長。"},{"start":444.52,"end":463.625,"text":"會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的"},{"start":466.406,"end":491.408,"text":"剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品"},{"start":492.228,"end":514.55,"text":"還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法"},{"start":514.77,"end":524.937,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續"},{"start":544.626,"end":567.374,"text":"．協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接下還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在"},{"start":571.616,"end":572.236,"text":"委員：陳冠廷委員：陳冠廷"},{"start":600.869,"end":621.169,"text":"國防部答應,我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止。然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成。那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。"},{"start":625.452,"end":642.026,"text":"這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個黨路供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業"},{"start":643.587,"end":657.798,"text":"那另外一方面透過跨部會的一個協助來給他進行補助進行研發那另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外呢我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的這個供應鏈的這個生態系要能夠建立起來這樣那才有持續性"},{"start":664.924,"end":691.794,"text":"謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場"},{"start":692.794,"end":719.24,"text":"所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是"},{"start":720.28,"end":748.235,"text":"你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同"},{"start":749.937,"end":770.752,"text":"我想應該 委員應該要 我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思 我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對"},{"start":772.233,"end":772.994,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情"},{"start":790.612,"end":791.653,"text":"謝謝院長。那我就要了解了。謝謝。是。"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:51:31 - 12:05:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155173,"gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時51分）謝謝召委，我們請部長。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：請顧部長。"],["陳委員冠廷：還有戰規司的黃司長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好、司長好。剛剛王定宇委員的質詢提到，臺灣對於軍售案有沒有能力進行查核處理或是瞭解異常的現象，黃司長剛才是斬釘截鐵的回答：「沒有辦法！」但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析，這是指過去有這樣做？現在有這樣做？還是未來會用這樣的方式去做？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，所謂針對歷史價格的分析，我們做的是在與美方簽訂合約之前……"],["陳委員冠廷：司長，剛才你說沒有辦法，但是顧部長說可以靠採購的價格分析，因此部長能否針對這個部分簡單說明，這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：對，在我們與美方簽約之前，我想我們會蒐集國內外的歷史採購價格進行分析，強化我們與美方議約的能力，我們會試圖做看看。不過，基本上與戰規司長所講的也沒有牴觸，因為我們簽約的對象是美國政府，而美國政府與廠商之間的成本分析，事實上是他們的內部資料，我們只能就我們所理解的相關國內外歷史採購價格加以分析之後，再與美方做一個說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：這一次是美國國防合約的審計局發現這樣的問題，也就是他們的內部稽查發現有這樣的問題，所以才讓我們知道。我想未來我們也還是要與美國政府打交道，所以我們並不是因為這件事情而擔心未來可能會面臨到的問題，而是想要知道我們可以有的作為是什麼？因此，剛才部長說可以靠美方自己的稽核也好、或是靠我們自己進行的歷史採購價格分析也好，我想這個都是我們可以同時並重的。因此，關於剛才王委員質詢的部分，部長提出的講法應該可以讓司長參考一下。","另外再請教，空軍防空暨飛彈指揮部與美方先行簽約，這是美方告知我們、或是我們自己主動發現、或是媒體記者發現之後再告訴我們？"],["顧部長立雄：重鑑測案？你講的是那個重鑑測……"],["陳委員冠廷：今天稍早有提到空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約的這件事情。"],["顧部長立雄：重鑑測案這個部分，當初的緣起是因為這個裝備，特別是導引的部分已經屆期了，屆期的部分就要進行斷件的更換。最主要是在程序上，那時候應該是先行發出發價書，在程序上發價書發出的時候，沒有先行知會國防部，因此在程序上產生了一個瑕疵。這個是程序上的瑕疵，但事實上這個重鑑測案要新編預算、要經過立法院通過，這個還是必須要完備，只是當時發出發價書的當下，因為這個預算超過了十億元以上，應該還是要先報國防部，以上是就我現在的瞭解。"],["陳委員冠廷：瞭解，反正瑕疵在未來就更正即可，也不是什麼我們無法改變的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：後來整個作業文件就有補正。"],["陳委員冠廷：只要把整個流程完善就可以了，我們內部能夠掌控的就在內部改進。","接下來，今天還有提到與台美國防工業研討會會議成效相關的部分，我想現在已經有制度化的一些對話機制，包含上半年在臺灣舉辦的台美國防產業論壇，以及下半年在美國舉辦的美台國防工業會議，我認為這是一個非常重要的軍事平台，也很高興今天能特別將它放入這次委員會的專案報告裡面。但是關於我們國防及外交委員能夠知道的內容，因為我們都有派員去參與，我還是希望不是只有副部長發表演說的重點是什麼，而是讓我們知道未來的趨勢是什麼，也可以與我們分享更實質一點的一些文件，也不一定是文件，甚至可以直接與我們分享，這次的趨勢是什麼。每次我們與其他國會議員討論到臺灣國防時，他們都會問到一個問題，身為一個國會議員，現在臺灣最需要的系統是什麼、裝備是什麼、服務是什麼？關於這個東西，我在今天的專案報告中看到非常大的標題，但是一些細部的項目，還是希望未來能夠有簡報給我們，讓我們更能夠理解。","因為我們臺灣地緣政治的局勢越來越險峻，再加上這個供應鏈的狀況，當然我們與美國之間的合作是越來越重要，包括烏克蘭戰爭、以阿衝突、這些武器的庫存等等，美方一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同區域上的衝突，所以我們自己的這些產業鏈、供應鏈都必須要備足。但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售，現在累積的金額已經達到205億美元，因此如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項在臺生產，當然是可以某種程度減緩軍售延宕的問題，請問這些有沒有包含在台美工業的相關討論裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：這次確實是有討論，剛剛的報告也提到是有涉及到這個部分，至於具體的詳細項目，因為這是一個公開的報告，而我與美國國防部官員或相關官員具體的討論內容可能……"],["林局長文祥：屬於閉門會議。"],["顧部長立雄：屬於閉門的會議，所以我想詳情的部分可能不太適合公開說明。但是我現在能夠說明的，特別是涉及到無人載具的部分，美國方面根據烏克蘭的經驗，它認為在地具有能量自主生產是一件很重要的事情，因此它特別重視無人載具的這一塊，所以商務部才會率26家過來。這個不是商務部單一部會的決策，我想這是他們跨部會的決策，所以納進他們整個國防工業鏈的一部分，這是相當具有政策性的意義。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。在會談裡面有閉門的會議，這些當然就比較不方便說出來，但是在一些細節上面，譬如我們需要什麼樣的服務？就目前的供應鏈而言，臺灣的優勢與我們的缺失在哪裡？哪些是我們可以透過與美方的合作去增進的？我想這些部分都是未來可以談的。","剛才提到無論是無人機也好，或是其他相關的作法，關於軍用無人機，臺灣適合參入的市場已經達到170億美元，所以現在我們加入美國的供應鏈，已經不只是軍方的事情而已，它是有強大的商機在裡面，但是對我們的中小企業而言，無論是材料或零件、重要的部品，還是有遇到一些挑戰。首先當然是資安風險，我們有沒有辦法符合CMMC的資安認證機制？此外，還有臺灣廠商的能力與意願，我們的廠商或許是中小企業，它願不願意長時間大規模、大產量的生產符合這個供應鏈的作法，這個也是有風險啊！他們要不要擴廠、他們要不要增聘人員以符合美方的資安要求，確保我們clearance有辦法達到美方的要求，這些其實都是需要大量的資本去完善它。因此，我想請問部長，其實也不只是國防部而已，我們對臺灣軍工產業的廠商能夠針對這些部分提供什麼樣的協助？譬如貸款、協助廠商引進設備擴大產能、或是有更多的單一窗口協助中小企業與美方接洽、或是針對國防產業的關稅減免，不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見及看法？"],["顧部長立雄：現在初級的部分當然就是我們與國科會、經濟部及數發部建立一個平台，在這個產業的規模現在不大的情況之下，它需要一些研發的補助，我們就透過經濟部及國科會相關可以支援民間的預算給予補助、進行研發。剛剛委員確實也點出了問題，譬如它必須要有持續性的訂單，坦白講，沒有持續性的訂單，如果只靠國防部單一的來源，而我們在平時階段的訂單需求就只到這個程度為止，後續怎麼辦呢？因此，整個供應鏈要能夠形成，它才有那個意願擴大它的產能，事實上，美國也看得出來，才會提出打入供應鏈的部分。講白一點，我們國防部一方面要協助，根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業，另外一方面是透過跨部會的協助，給予它進行研發的補助，而且我們也要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CMMC的認證，還要想辦法讓這個供應鏈的生態系能夠建立起來，這樣才有持續性。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。既然你講到這個生態系，關於我們的民雄航太園區，剛好最近中科院院長也來過我們的辦公室談到生態系的做法，我還是很肯定中科院特別在我們的園區裡面設置一些大型的測試場所。這些測試場所可以應用的範圍就是讓這些廠商或中小企業能夠省去一大部分在R and D上面的投資，因為它已經有完整的測試場，所以規劃某種程度能夠讓軍工產業共通的測試場所，我想過去在美國也有嘗試過。","我的下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作，其實DIU也不是一個所謂的小組，它也是要打造整體的生態鏈，因此，針對DIU的部分，我還是要強調，它還包含可以租借國家的實驗室，所以它並不是你現在想像的一個小組而已，而是應用美國國家整體各個不同部門的國力。我還是要請教，美國的DIU是尋求技術成熟程度1到3的部分，可是我看到我們國防部創新小組尋求的是7到9的成熟科技，我想請教我們與他們不同的地方，為什麼要做這樣的區分？為什麼我們與他們在這個地方不同？"],["顧部長立雄：美國的DIU應該也不是1到3。"],["陳委員冠廷：它就是1到3，不好意思，我們是有經過他們的……"],["顧部長立雄：那個是屬於DARPA的部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：您的資訊上面……DIU他們trial不管是readiness或……就是1到3，而我們針對的不一樣，但不一樣不代表是錯的，我只是要知道為什麼不一樣。一方面可能是因為我們國科會有研究，民間大學針對技術的基礎研究……"],["顧部長立雄：我們的資源不是像美國那麼充沛，我們必須要快速籌獲這個部分。"],["李院長世強：我們1到3的部分是透過我們與經濟部的學研中心計畫，讓各大學的學研中心做1到3的readiness，我們希望尋求的是產業界能夠發展4到6的部分，7到9再由國防部來投入。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝院長，那我就瞭解了，謝謝。"],["李院長世強：是。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}