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00:02:13,052\n在公聽會上表示而且還具體的行文給你們表示對208條裡面要具名還有在審判中因道庭言辭說明鑒定報告等他們有不同的意見所值的理由\n\n8\n00:02:28,429 --> 00:02:40,241\n當時衛福部就跟你們說就鑑定的程序而言醫療就費的鑑定具有高度的專業性和複雜性本部會達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質醫審會的委員組成都有普遍性和專門性\n\n9\n00:02:45,606 --> 00:03:10,176\n而且呢他們去要請來醫審會鑑定的人啊都是各這個醫學中心或是各領域裡面的這個專業人士他們是做初審他們是做初審嚴提初步的鑑定意見可是你知道嗎醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了你知道他們是怎麼出去報告的嗎\n\n10\n00:03:11,255 --> 00:03:21,691\n最後有出審的委員他並不具名那最後是由那個建定會的委員我是要跟你講他們出審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告\n\n11\n00:03:22,711 --> 00:03:34,036\n他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名\n\n12\n00:03:45,441 --> 00:03:49,545\n全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢\n\n13\n00:04:12,366 --> 00:04:15,049\n當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們就覺得說\n\n14\n00:04:28,543 --> 00:04:44,576\n據名要負責要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了我現在要問你據名才敢講真話就一切鑑定而言喔據名才敢講真話還是不據名才能夠真正的玩才能夠這個呈現真實你覺得呢\n\n15\n00:04:47,899 --> 00:05:07,813\n跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有一個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義\n\n16\n00:05:13,237 --> 00:05:16,638\n他說醫學分科及系彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係甚為熟人及時相往來。倘若建立一件書面報告具名,除非\n\n17\n00:05:38,704 --> 00:05:44,848\n均做有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如做不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性\n\n18\n00:05:59,336 --> 00:06:09,678\n這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心醫學會個別醫生機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法\n\n19\n00:06:27,922 --> 00:06:33,688\n這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性所以他們一再當時就跟你們講說報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去給你跑法院那你叫他報酬相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔\n\n20\n00:06:50,845 --> 00:07:01,277\n所以他在跟你們講修208條的時候你要新增第三項前兩項規定其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會解決的來這件事請問你們現在家中無大人了我問你們啦\n\n21\n00:07:07,185 --> 00:07:10,788\n你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?\n\n22\n00:07:10,788 --> 00:07:17,274\n現在沒有醫生要監聽,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去搜,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。\n\n23\n00:07:32,968 --> 00:07:41,858\n現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任\n\n24\n00:07:48,980 --> 00:08:08,578\n衛福部也衛福部不是沒修欸衛福部修了什麼你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了他說要修法他修了修了什麼衛福部的醫療法那個98條的第二項授權就那個一省會的這個組織會議的這些的規定\n\n25\n00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:19,998\n沒有,他修的是施行細則啦施行細則,修這個我跟你講,修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦\n\n26\n00:08:22,318 --> 00:08:46,741\n他修這個給醫生看醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第1項第5款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦\n\n27\n00:08:55,647 --> 00:09:15,000\n現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你不要繞跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?\n\n28\n00:09:19,208 --> 00:09:23,973\n他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有\n\n29\n00:09:28,616 --> 00:09:37,358\n目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是\n\n30\n00:09:54,261 --> 00:10:17,710\n在野黨杯葛我要講的是院長喔我不講大法官啦院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後正當性有問題而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡不斷地不斷地被擱置在那裡審理程序無法進行要不要修法怎麼修法沒有修法要怎麼解決庭長你來表述一下意見\n\n31\n00:10:21,589 --> 00:10:38,555\n謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫診會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫診會那不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決\n\n32\n00:10:40,055 --> 00:10:58,844\n我們有一些相關的鎮定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏洞這樣子你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這不然我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事師是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定激動現在不專不專業不要講這麼多第一個\n\n33\n00:11:14,190 --> 00:11:23,832\n你講的這個溝通還有其他有專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在第二個當你說要溝通的時候你們在那裡跨日費時當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件\n\n34\n00:11:36,855 --> 00:11:41,318\n在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法\n\n35\n00:12:00,649 --> 00:12:13,299\n現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?\n\n36\n00:12:17,637 --> 00:12:33,485\n現在大家都亂跑沒有院長在野黨我跟你講主席我是建議我不想有大法官但是院長、副院長、人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種\n\n37\n00:12:43,622 --> 00:13:08,416\n製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是都是沒好我們大家這屆也沒好夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席\n\n38\n00:13:09,577 --> 00:13:37,192\n我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢林算好嗎?還有政治可以問責嘛大家覺得政治問責的機制可以存在對不對?這樣子下去你叫司法院來,審預算叫林何人來都不好,他們這些人都不會擔當不負責的,也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是很荒謬啦好啦我知道時間到了,謝謝\n\n39\n00:13:39,401 --> 00:13:39,774\n林淑芬\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3942\t22712\t謝謝主席是不是請我們這個司法院代理秘書長麻煩代理秘書長秘書長我這個上個禮拜總質詢談到這個刑事訴訟法第208條的修法我不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情\n24849\t31053\t現在所有醫療糾紛的鑑定現在所有的審理程序都停擺現在300件送到醫審會要去做鑑定被退回50件而且還有250件即將要被退回\n48806\t70256\t所以整個審理的程序都停擺影響了當事人的權益這把火是司法院放的可是現在沒有人在乎更好笑的是這個社會上最精英的兩大勢力法界和醫界在那裡惡鬥\n71937\t82025\t你們修了法以後呢法界硬是要這樣子叫人家具名一屆就是我不願意我不理你你能怎麼樣可是犧牲了當事人的權益\n86038\t115061\t那這個秘書長現在要怎麼解決跟委員報告那這個這個鑑定好像議審會是屬於機關鑑定那機關鑑定需要照我們現在的這個訴訟法的正當程序的要求那必須要這個具名然後然後必要的時候要出來做說明這是法律上面正當程序的這個要求那當然當然我們理解說議審會方面有一些的\n115421\t115481\t林淑芬\n131770\t133052\t在公聽會上表示而且還具體的行文給你們表示對208條裡面要具名還有在審判中因道庭言辭說明鑒定報告等他們有不同的意見所值的理由\n148429\t160241\t當時衛福部就跟你們說就鑑定的程序而言醫療就費的鑑定具有高度的專業性和複雜性本部會達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質醫審會的委員組成都有普遍性和專門性\n165606\t190176\t而且呢他們去要請來醫審會鑑定的人啊都是各這個醫學中心或是各領域裡面的這個專業人士他們是做初審他們是做初審嚴提初步的鑑定意見可是你知道嗎醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了你知道他們是怎麼出去報告的嗎\n191255\t201691\t最後有出審的委員他並不具名那最後是由那個建定會的委員我是要跟你講他們出審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告\n202711\t214036\t他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名\n225441\t229545\t全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢\n252366\t255049\t當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們就覺得說\n268543\t284576\t據名 要負責 要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了 我現在要問你 據名才敢講真話 就一切鑑定而言喔據名才敢講真話 還是不據名才能夠真正的玩 才能夠這個呈現真實 你覺得呢\n287899\t307813\t跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有一個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義\n313237\t316638\t他說醫學分科及系彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係甚為熟人及時相往來。倘若建立一件書面報告具名,除非\n338704\t344848\t均做有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如做不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性\n359336\t369678\t這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心醫學會 個別醫生機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法\n387922\t393688\t這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性所以他們一再當時就跟你們講說報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去給你跑法院那你叫他報酬相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔\n410845\t421277\t所以他在跟你們講 修208條的時候你要新增第三項 前兩項規定 其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會解決的 來 這件事請問你們現在家中無大人了 我問你們啦\n427185\t430788\t你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?\n430788\t437274\t現在沒有醫生要監聽,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去搜,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。\n452968\t461858\t現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任\n468980\t488578\t衛福部也 衛福部不是沒修欸 衛福部修了什麼 你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長 但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部的醫療法那個98條的第二項授權就那個一省會的這個組織會議的這些的規定\n490680\t499998\t沒有,他修的是施行細則啦施行細則,修這個我跟你講,修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦\n502318\t526741\t他修這個給醫生看 醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第1項第5款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼 我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦\n535647\t555000\t現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你不要繞跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?\n559208\t563973\t他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有\n568616\t577358\t目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是\n594261\t617710\t在野黨杯葛 我要講的是 院長喔 我不講大法官啦 院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後 正當性有問題 而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡 不斷地 不斷地被擱置在那裡 審理程序無法進行要不要修法 怎麼修法 沒有修法要怎麼解決 庭長你來表述一下意見\n621589\t638555\t謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫診會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫診會那不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決\n640055\t658844\t我們有一些相關的鎮定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏洞這樣子你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這不然我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事師是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定激動現在不專不專業不要講這麼多第一個\n674190\t683832\t你講的這個溝通還有其他有專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在第二個當你說要溝通的時候你們在那裡跨日費時當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件\n696855\t701318\t在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法\n720649\t733299\t現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?\n737637\t753485\t現在大家都亂跑 沒有院長在野黨 我跟你講主席 我是建議我不想有大法官但是院長、副院長、人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有 沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種\n763622\t788416\t製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是都是沒好我們大家這屆也沒好夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席\n789577\t817192\t我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢林算好嗎?還有政治可以問責嘛大家覺得政治問責的機制可以存在對不對?這樣子下去你叫司法院來,審預算叫林何人來都不好,他們這些人都不會擔當不負責的,也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是很荒謬啦好啦我知道時間到了,謝謝\n819401\t819774\t林淑芬\n","txt":"謝謝主席是不是請我們這個司法院代理秘書長麻煩代理秘書長秘書長我這個上個禮拜總質詢談到這個刑事訴訟法第208條的修法我不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情\n現在所有醫療糾紛的鑑定現在所有的審理程序都停擺現在300件送到醫審會要去做鑑定被退回50件而且還有250件即將要被退回\n所以整個審理的程序都停擺影響了當事人的權益這把火是司法院放的可是現在沒有人在乎更好笑的是這個社會上最精英的兩大勢力法界和醫界在那裡惡鬥\n你們修了法以後呢法界硬是要這樣子叫人家具名一屆就是我不願意我不理你你能怎麼樣可是犧牲了當事人的權益\n那這個秘書長現在要怎麼解決跟委員報告那這個這個鑑定好像議審會是屬於機關鑑定那機關鑑定需要照我們現在的這個訴訟法的正當程序的要求那必須要這個具名然後然後必要的時候要出來做說明這是法律上面正當程序的這個要求那當然當然我們理解說議審會方面有一些的\n林淑芬\n在公聽會上表示而且還具體的行文給你們表示對208條裡面要具名還有在審判中因道庭言辭說明鑒定報告等他們有不同的意見所值的理由\n當時衛福部就跟你們說就鑑定的程序而言醫療就費的鑑定具有高度的專業性和複雜性本部會達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質醫審會的委員組成都有普遍性和專門性\n而且呢他們去要請來醫審會鑑定的人啊都是各這個醫學中心或是各領域裡面的這個專業人士他們是做初審他們是做初審嚴提初步的鑑定意見可是你知道嗎醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了你知道他們是怎麼出去報告的嗎\n最後有出審的委員他並不具名那最後是由那個建定會的委員我是要跟你講他們出審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告\n他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名\n全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢\n當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們就覺得說\n據名 要負責 要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了 我現在要問你 據名才敢講真話 就一切鑑定而言喔據名才敢講真話 還是不據名才能夠真正的玩 才能夠這個呈現真實 你覺得呢\n跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有一個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義\n他說醫學分科及系彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係甚為熟人及時相往來。倘若建立一件書面報告具名,除非\n均做有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如做不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性\n這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心醫學會 個別醫生機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法\n這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性所以他們一再當時就跟你們講說報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去給你跑法院那你叫他報酬相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔\n所以他在跟你們講 修208條的時候你要新增第三項 前兩項規定 其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會解決的 來 這件事請問你們現在家中無大人了 我問你們啦\n你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?\n現在沒有醫生要監聽,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去搜,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。\n現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任\n衛福部也 衛福部不是沒修欸 衛福部修了什麼 你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長 但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部的醫療法那個98條的第二項授權就那個一省會的這個組織會議的這些的規定\n沒有,他修的是施行細則啦施行細則,修這個我跟你講,修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦\n他修這個給醫生看 醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第1項第5款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼 我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦\n現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你不要繞跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?\n他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有\n目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是\n在野黨杯葛 我要講的是 院長喔 我不講大法官啦 院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後 正當性有問題 而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡 不斷地 不斷地被擱置在那裡 審理程序無法進行要不要修法 怎麼修法 沒有修法要怎麼解決 庭長你來表述一下意見\n謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫診會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫診會那不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決\n我們有一些相關的鎮定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏洞這樣子你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這不然我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事師是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定激動現在不專不專業不要講這麼多第一個\n你講的這個溝通還有其他有專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在第二個當你說要溝通的時候你們在那裡跨日費時當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件\n在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法\n現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?\n現在大家都亂跑 沒有院長在野黨 我跟你講主席 我是建議我不想有大法官但是院長、副院長、人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有 沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種\n製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是都是沒好我們大家這屆也沒好夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席\n我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢林算好嗎?還有政治可以問責嘛大家覺得政治問責的機制可以存在對不對?這樣子下去你叫司法院來,審預算叫林何人來都不好,他們這些人都不會擔當不負責的,也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是很荒謬啦好啦我知道時間到了,謝謝\n林淑芬\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.942 --> 00:22.712\n謝謝主席是不是請我們這個司法院代理秘書長麻煩代理秘書長秘書長我這個上個禮拜總質詢談到這個刑事訴訟法第208條的修法我不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情\n\n00:24.849 --> 00:31.053\n現在所有醫療糾紛的鑑定現在所有的審理程序都停擺現在300件送到醫審會要去做鑑定被退回50件而且還有250件即將要被退回\n\n00:48.806 --> 01:10.256\n所以整個審理的程序都停擺影響了當事人的權益這把火是司法院放的可是現在沒有人在乎更好笑的是這個社會上最精英的兩大勢力法界和醫界在那裡惡鬥\n\n01:11.937 --> 01:22.025\n你們修了法以後呢法界硬是要這樣子叫人家具名一屆就是我不願意我不理你你能怎麼樣可是犧牲了當事人的權益\n\n01:26.038 --> 01:55.061\n那這個秘書長現在要怎麼解決跟委員報告那這個這個鑑定好像議審會是屬於機關鑑定那機關鑑定需要照我們現在的這個訴訟法的正當程序的要求那必須要這個具名然後然後必要的時候要出來做說明這是法律上面正當程序的這個要求那當然當然我們理解說議審會方面有一些的\n\n01:55.421 --> 01:55.481\n林淑芬\n\n02:11.770 --> 02:13.052\n在公聽會上表示而且還具體的行文給你們表示對208條裡面要具名還有在審判中因道庭言辭說明鑒定報告等他們有不同的意見所值的理由\n\n02:28.429 --> 02:40.241\n當時衛福部就跟你們說就鑑定的程序而言醫療就費的鑑定具有高度的專業性和複雜性本部會達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質醫審會的委員組成都有普遍性和專門性\n\n02:45.606 --> 03:10.176\n而且呢他們去要請來醫審會鑑定的人啊都是各這個醫學中心或是各領域裡面的這個專業人士他們是做初審他們是做初審嚴提初步的鑑定意見可是你知道嗎醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了你知道他們是怎麼出去報告的嗎\n\n03:11.255 --> 03:21.691\n最後有出審的委員他並不具名那最後是由那個建定會的委員我是要跟你講他們出審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告\n\n03:22.711 --> 03:34.036\n他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名\n\n03:45.441 --> 03:49.545\n全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢\n\n04:12.366 --> 04:15.049\n當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們就覺得說\n\n04:28.543 --> 04:44.576\n據名要負責要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了我現在要問你據名才敢講真話就一切鑑定而言喔據名才敢講真話還是不據名才能夠真正的玩才能夠這個呈現真實你覺得呢\n\n04:47.899 --> 05:07.813\n跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有一個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義\n\n05:13.237 --> 05:16.638\n他說醫學分科及系彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係甚為熟人及時相往來。倘若建立一件書面報告具名,除非\n\n05:38.704 --> 05:44.848\n均做有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如做不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性\n\n05:59.336 --> 06:09.678\n這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心醫學會個別醫生機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法\n\n06:27.922 --> 06:33.688\n這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性所以他們一再當時就跟你們講說報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去給你跑法院那你叫他報酬相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔\n\n06:50.845 --> 07:01.277\n所以他在跟你們講修208條的時候你要新增第三項前兩項規定其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會解決的來這件事請問你們現在家中無大人了我問你們啦\n\n07:07.185 --> 07:10.788\n你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?\n\n07:10.788 --> 07:17.274\n現在沒有醫生要監聽,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去搜,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。\n\n07:32.968 --> 07:41.858\n現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任\n\n07:48.980 --> 08:08.578\n衛福部也衛福部不是沒修欸衛福部修了什麼你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了他說要修法他修了修了什麼衛福部的醫療法那個98條的第二項授權就那個一省會的這個組織會議的這些的規定\n\n08:10.680 --> 08:19.998\n沒有,他修的是施行細則啦施行細則,修這個我跟你講,修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦\n\n08:22.318 --> 08:46.741\n他修這個給醫生看醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第1項第5款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦\n\n08:55.647 --> 09:15.000\n現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你不要繞跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?\n\n09:19.208 --> 09:23.973\n他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有\n\n09:28.616 --> 09:37.358\n目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是\n\n09:54.261 --> 10:17.710\n在野黨杯葛我要講的是院長喔我不講大法官啦院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後正當性有問題而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡不斷地不斷地被擱置在那裡審理程序無法進行要不要修法怎麼修法沒有修法要怎麼解決庭長你來表述一下意見\n\n10:21.589 --> 10:38.555\n謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫診會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫診會那不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決\n\n10:40.055 --> 10:58.844\n我們有一些相關的鎮定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏洞這樣子你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這不然我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事師是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定激動現在不專不專業不要講這麼多第一個\n\n11:14.190 --> 11:23.832\n你講的這個溝通還有其他有專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在第二個當你說要溝通的時候你們在那裡跨日費時當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件\n\n11:36.855 --> 11:41.318\n在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法\n\n12:00.649 --> 12:13.299\n現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?\n\n12:17.637 --> 12:33.485\n現在大家都亂跑沒有院長在野黨我跟你講主席我是建議我不想有大法官但是院長、副院長、人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種\n\n12:43.622 --> 13:08.416\n製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是都是沒好我們大家這屆也沒好夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席\n\n13:09.577 --> 13:37.192\n我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢林算好嗎?還有政治可以問責嘛大家覺得政治問責的機制可以存在對不對?這樣子下去你叫司法院來,審預算叫林何人來都不好,他們這些人都不會擔當不負責的,也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是很荒謬啦好啦我知道時間到了,謝謝\n\n13:39.401 --> 13:39.774\n林淑芬\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.942,"end":22.712,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請我們這個司法院代理秘書長麻煩代理秘書長秘書長我這個上個禮拜總質詢談到這個刑事訴訟法第208條的修法我不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情"},{"start":24.849,"end":31.053,"text":"現在所有醫療糾紛的鑑定現在所有的審理程序都停擺現在300件送到醫審會要去做鑑定被退回50件而且還有250件即將要被退回"},{"start":48.806,"end":70.256,"text":"所以整個審理的程序都停擺影響了當事人的權益這把火是司法院放的可是現在沒有人在乎更好笑的是這個社會上最精英的兩大勢力法界和醫界在那裡惡鬥"},{"start":71.937,"end":82.025,"text":"你們修了法以後呢法界硬是要這樣子叫人家具名一屆就是我不願意我不理你你能怎麼樣可是犧牲了當事人的權益"},{"start":86.038,"end":115.061,"text":"那這個秘書長現在要怎麼解決跟委員報告那這個這個鑑定好像議審會是屬於機關鑑定那機關鑑定需要照我們現在的這個訴訟法的正當程序的要求那必須要這個具名然後然後必要的時候要出來做說明這是法律上面正當程序的這個要求那當然當然我們理解說議審會方面有一些的"},{"start":115.421,"end":115.481,"text":"林淑芬"},{"start":131.77,"end":133.052,"text":"在公聽會上表示而且還具體的行文給你們表示對208條裡面要具名還有在審判中因道庭言辭說明鑒定報告等他們有不同的意見所值的理由"},{"start":148.429,"end":160.241,"text":"當時衛福部就跟你們說就鑑定的程序而言醫療就費的鑑定具有高度的專業性和複雜性本部會達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質醫審會的委員組成都有普遍性和專門性"},{"start":165.606,"end":190.176,"text":"而且呢他們去要請來醫審會鑑定的人啊都是各這個醫學中心或是各領域裡面的這個專業人士他們是做初審他們是做初審嚴提初步的鑑定意見可是你知道嗎醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了你知道他們是怎麼出去報告的嗎"},{"start":191.255,"end":201.691,"text":"最後有出審的委員他並不具名那最後是由那個建定會的委員我是要跟你講他們出審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告"},{"start":202.711,"end":214.036,"text":"他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名"},{"start":225.441,"end":229.545,"text":"全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢"},{"start":252.366,"end":255.049,"text":"當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們就覺得說"},{"start":268.543,"end":284.576,"text":"據名 要負責 要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了 我現在要問你 據名才敢講真話 就一切鑑定而言喔據名才敢講真話 還是不據名才能夠真正的玩 才能夠這個呈現真實 你覺得呢"},{"start":287.899,"end":307.813,"text":"跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有一個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義"},{"start":313.237,"end":316.638,"text":"他說醫學分科及系彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係甚為熟人及時相往來。倘若建立一件書面報告具名,除非"},{"start":338.704,"end":344.848,"text":"均做有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如做不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性"},{"start":359.336,"end":369.678,"text":"這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心醫學會 個別醫生機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法"},{"start":387.922,"end":393.688,"text":"這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性所以他們一再當時就跟你們講說報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去給你跑法院那你叫他報酬相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔"},{"start":410.845,"end":421.277,"text":"所以他在跟你們講 修208條的時候你要新增第三項 前兩項規定 其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會解決的 來 這件事請問你們現在家中無大人了 我問你們啦"},{"start":427.185,"end":430.788,"text":"你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?"},{"start":430.788,"end":437.274,"text":"現在沒有醫生要監聽,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去搜,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。"},{"start":452.968,"end":461.858,"text":"現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任"},{"start":468.98,"end":488.578,"text":"衛福部也 衛福部不是沒修欸 衛福部修了什麼 你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長 但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部的醫療法那個98條的第二項授權就那個一省會的這個組織會議的這些的規定"},{"start":490.68,"end":499.998,"text":"沒有,他修的是施行細則啦施行細則,修這個我跟你講,修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦"},{"start":502.318,"end":526.741,"text":"他修這個給醫生看 醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第1項第5款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼 我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦"},{"start":535.647,"end":555,"text":"現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你不要繞跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?"},{"start":559.208,"end":563.973,"text":"他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有"},{"start":568.616,"end":577.358,"text":"目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是"},{"start":594.261,"end":617.71,"text":"在野黨杯葛 我要講的是 院長喔 我不講大法官啦 院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後 正當性有問題 而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡 不斷地 不斷地被擱置在那裡 審理程序無法進行要不要修法 怎麼修法 沒有修法要怎麼解決 庭長你來表述一下意見"},{"start":621.589,"end":638.555,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫診會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫診會那不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決"},{"start":640.055,"end":658.844,"text":"我們有一些相關的鎮定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏洞這樣子你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這不然我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事師是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定激動現在不專不專業不要講這麼多第一個"},{"start":674.19,"end":683.832,"text":"你講的這個溝通還有其他有專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在第二個當你說要溝通的時候你們在那裡跨日費時當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件"},{"start":696.855,"end":701.318,"text":"在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法"},{"start":720.649,"end":733.299,"text":"現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?"},{"start":737.637,"end":753.485,"text":"現在大家都亂跑 沒有院長在野黨 我跟你講主席 我是建議我不想有大法官但是院長、副院長、人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有 沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種"},{"start":763.622,"end":788.416,"text":"製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是都是沒好我們大家這屆也沒好夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席"},{"start":789.577,"end":817.192,"text":"我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢林算好嗎?還有政治可以問責嘛大家覺得政治問責的機制可以存在對不對?這樣子下去你叫司法院來,審預算叫林何人來都不好,他們這些人都不會擔當不負責的,也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是很荒謬啦好啦我知道時間到了,謝謝"},{"start":819.401,"end":819.774,"text":"林淑芬"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:55:48 - 12:09:28","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155174,"gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時55分）謝謝主席，請司法院代理秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩代理秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：秘書長，我在上個禮拜總質詢談到刑事訴訟法第二百零八條的修法，不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：就是鑑定的程序。"],["林委員淑芬：停擺。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：刑事訴訟嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：對，停擺，現在醫療糾紛的鑑定在所有審理程序都停擺。有300件送到醫審會要作鑑定，被退回50件，而且還有250件也即將要被退回，所以整個審理程序都停擺，影響了當事人的權益。這把火是司法院放的，可是現在沒有人覺得要緊欸！沒有人在乎！更好笑的是，這個社會上最菁英的兩大勢力──法界和醫界在惡鬥！你們法界修了法，硬是要叫人家具名，醫界則表示不屑做、不願意、不理你，你能怎麼樣？可是犧牲了當事人的權益欸！秘書長，現在這個要怎麼解決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，在鑑定上，像醫審會屬於機關鑑定，而機關鑑定依照現在訴訟法的正當程序要求必須具名，且必要時必須出來說明，這是法律上的正當程序要求。當然我們理解醫審會方面有一些……"],["林委員淑芬：不要講這麼多，我就問你啦，因為修法是你們做的，而且在2023年修法以前，在2019年和2020年當時就要修了，而且還開了公聽會，衛福部很清楚地在公聽會上表示，也具體地行文給你們，指出他們對於第二百零八條裡面規定要具名，還有在審判中應到庭言詞說明鑑定報告等有不同意見。至於所執理由，當時衛福部也跟你們說了，就鑑定程序而言，醫療糾紛的鑑定具有高度專業性和複雜性，本部為達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質，醫審會的委員組成有普遍性跟專門性。而且他們請來醫審會鑑定的人都是各醫學中心或是各領域裡的專業人士，他們是做初審，研提初步的鑑定意見。可是你知道嗎，醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了，你知道他們是怎麼出具報告的嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：初審委員並不具名，最後是由鑑定會的委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我是要跟你講，初審報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告。他們是合議制、要共識決，初審報告可能會被修正、可能被大幅修改，而且可能會被重新鑑定。他們是合議制、共識決欸！你是要求初審醫師具名，還是要求在最後共識決的時候擔任主席的醫師具名啊？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：以我的理解，應該是由最後確定者，因為初審只是初步的……"],["林委員淑芬：那最後確定者是誰？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：應該是委員會。"],["林委員淑芬：在合議制下，最後確定的是誰？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：由全體委員具名的話，如果他們派一個代表出來是可以的。"],["林委員淑芬：全體委員具名好笑！派一個代表更好笑！這個委員代表出來，他能代表誰？只能代表他個人。可是要是鑑定報告跟他的個人意見不完全、不百分之百一致呢？所以我才說，當時衛福部就跟你講，出具書面報告的鑑定人須簽名，辯論的時候還要再去言詞說明鑑定報告，造成作業上的困難，而且難有實益。","現在話又說回來了，你們都覺得具名是因為要負責、要肯認這個證據力的真實性，但是問題來了，我現在要問你，就醫界鑑定而言喔，是具名才敢講真話還是不具名才能真正地呈現真實？你覺得呢？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，具不具名是不是能判斷講真話，我想可以討論。具名其實是在將來他們有……"],["林委員淑芬：你要真實性，而且要他對證據力負責嘛！而且要問責、有法律責任嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為當事人可能有疑問，對該鑑定有疑問，要有個人可以請教或有可以請教的對象。如果是像以前……"],["林委員淑芬：「有請教的對象」這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義。好，不要緊，無非就是希望呈現真實嘛！對不對？對啊！我現在就問你，講白一點，衛福部在公文裡寫得很白欸！說醫學分科極細，彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係，甚為熟稔且經常相往來，倘若鑑定意見書面報告具名，除非均作有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定，否則，如作不利之鑑定，勢必囿於社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定，而無法釐清事實的真相。其實他們在暗示啊！雖然不應該這樣，事實是應該具名沒錯，可是考驗著人性，人性上，沒有醫師願意這樣做。而且你們被醫審會拒絕鑑定、退件後，也找了醫學中心、醫學會，問題是醫學中心、醫學會的個別醫生、機關、機構，仍沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們鑑定。所以，當時他們所講的其實就是目標與方法沒有辦法一致，目標是對的，但執行上是不可行的，因為違反了他們的人性，所以他們當時就一再跟你們講。而且報酬也不相當，你們叫他只領一筆車馬費，就要跟你們跑法院，但若要報酬相當，對於訴訟當事人來講，成本也不能負擔啊！所以他們在跟你們講，修第二百零八條的時候要新增第三項，除了前兩項規定，其他法律另有規定者，依其規定，但是這件事也無法解決。","秘書長，你們現在家中無大人了，對於這件事情，如果不修法的話，要怎麼解決？現在沒有醫生要鑑定，醫學會沒有、醫學中心沒有、個別醫師沒有、醫審會也沒有，整個審理程序停擺！你們告訴我怎麼解決。你們放的火、司法院放的火，現在跟你們沒關係，因為法務部無法起訴，也就沒辦法送到法院審理，現在事不關己啊！司法院擺爛啊！從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理，這是擺爛。法務部也覺得沒有關係啊！反正這個東西是衛福部的責任。衛福部不是沒修欸！衛福部修了什麼，你知道嗎？雖然你是代理秘書長，但修法是你當副秘書長的時候，衛福部也修了啊！他們說要修法而且也修了，修了什麼？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：醫療法第九十八條第二項，是授權醫審會組織會議的規定。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，他們修的是施行細則啦！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：對。"],["林委員淑芬：但我跟你講，修這個施行細則有用的話，現在就不用繼續退件。他們修這個給醫生看，醫生還是不願意。修正條文指出「……及鑑定相關文件、資料，應依政府資訊公開法第十八條第一項第五款規定限制公開或不予提供；其鑑定書之內容，由司法或檢察機關依法定程序提供。」這不知道在修什麼，我也看不懂，而且跟你們現在的刑事訴訟法有扞格之處，怎麼辦？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想，醫界認為個資法用到這個訴訟程序的……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！現在不要講那麼多，他們修了施行細則也無解，因為沒有人要做。那現在訴訟要不要進行啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：這部分……"],["林委員淑芬：訴訟要不要進行啊？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會跟醫審會、衛福部進一步溝通。"],["林委員淑芬：你都要落跑了！你說的你們是誰？廳長？刑事廳長，他說你們，那你們是誰？是你嗎？你要負責嗎？你有沒有申請要回去當法官？有？"],["李廳長釱任：目前沒有，未來應該是要回到審判……"],["林委員淑芬：未來？要是11月1日以後，新任院長還是難產、沒有院長，一個代理院長的權力正當性就成為問號了！當代理院長的權力正當性成了問號，代理院長再找一個秘書長，他的正當性更是問號加問號欸！主席、主席，關於在野黨杯葛，我在講的是院長，不是講大法官啦！若院長、副院長難產，11月1日以後正當性會有問題，而這種問題也沒辦法解決，人民的權利就不斷地被擱置在那裡，因為審理程序無法進行。要不要修法、怎麼修法、若沒有修法要怎麼解決？廳長，你來表示一下意見。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員的指教。在之前我們跟醫事司那邊討論過，我們派主責的法官到醫事司跟醫審會的委員作一些說明……"],["林委員淑芬：講重點！怎麼解決？"],["李廳長釱任：這部分可能要再進一步做溝通，因為醫審會……"],["林委員淑芬：要不要修法？沒有修法可不可以解決？你們修了一個法，造成一個問題……"],["李廳長釱任：我們有一些相關的證人、鑑定人禮遇措施，包括可以透過科技方法詰問，這個方式包括可以避免他被肉搜……"],["林委員淑芬：若這樣做，你有問過衛福部，醫生會願意嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：這部分我們還會再去做溝通，事實上我們已經溝通好幾次了。"],["林委員淑芬：醫生會願意嗎？還要做溝通？要溝通多久？"],["李廳長釱任：醫師在鑑定上是專業人士，但其他人也是專業人士，包括醫事司在鑑定上也是專業，它是法定鑑定機構。"],["林委員淑芬：現在關於專不專業不要講這麼多，第一個問題是所有給衛福部鑑定的案子統統都準備退回，所以你講的溝通，還有其他專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在！第二個，當你說要溝通的時候，其實是你們在那裏曠日廢時。"],["李廳長釱任：我剛剛要講的是鑑定人不是只有醫師才是專業人士，其他方面也有其他專業人士。"],["林委員淑芬：你們在那裏曠日廢時，當事人的權益一天拖過一天，已經拖了快半年。已經三百多件，未來還要增加幾件？這些人的權益呢？你們修了一個法……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會做進一步溝通，包含……"],["林委員淑芬：有沒有可能再修法？有沒有可能需要再修法？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為就像委員講的，如果修法可以解決，我們當然研議修法。如果是醫界的文化……"],["林委員淑芬：你有沒有覺得很荒謬？剛修了一個法、放了一把火，結果讓訴訟當事人的權益不保，然後你說再來彌補、再來修法，這樣是朝令有錯，夕改無妨嗎？所以當初你們為什麼要這樣一意孤行？為什麼都不聽人家的，現在搞到雞飛狗跳，對不對？啊！不是啦！現在大家都要落跑、沒有院長。","對於在野黨喔，主席，我是建議啦，我不曉得大法官的部分，但是針對院長、副院長的人事同意權，不要像其他在野黨委員講的要過的機會等於零。若是要過的機會等於零，整個司法院會停擺！現在秘書長沒有，沒有院長，導致代理的權力正當性也沒有，像這種情況，製造了問題以後，沒有辦法解決問題。然後，對於整個政策上的決定，沒有人可以擔當得起來，所以秘書長要跑了，再來一個秘書長也要跑了。在一個新的、立法院正式通過的司法院長產生以前，秘書長都是無效的，我們在這裡質詢也是無效的，只是狗吠火車而已啦！所以對於在野黨，我也呼籲主席，我就好好地審他們的院長、副院長人事。其實，人選好不好還有政治可以問責嘛！有政治問責的機制存在，對不對？否則這樣下去，審預算時要叫司法院來，但無論叫任何人來都無效，他們這些人都是無法擔當、無法負責、也沒有權力負責的，所以真的很荒謬啦！","好啦！我知道啦！時間到了，謝謝。"],["主席：不好意思，謝謝林委員。","剛剛講的鑑定，在實務上真的非常重要，例如對死刑被告的精神病鑑定……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會參考各種機制。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}}