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{\"start\": 59.456, \"end\": 80.95, \"text\": \"全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 59.456, \"end\": 59.676, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 59.676, \"end\": 59.897, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 59.897, \"end\": 60.097, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 60.097, \"end\": 61.197, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 61.197, \"end\": 61.618, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 61.618, \"end\": 62.158, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 62.158, \"end\": 62.258, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 62.258, \"end\": 62.298, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 62.298, \"end\": 62.478, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 62.478, \"end\": 62.638, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": 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\"我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 383.248, \"end\": 383.788, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 383.788, \"end\": 383.948, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 383.948, \"end\": 384.848, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 384.848, \"end\": 385.049, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 385.049, \"end\": 385.669, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"棄\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 385.669, \"end\": 385.809, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"掩\", \"start\": 385.809, \"end\": 385.989, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"埋\", \"start\": 385.989, \"end\": 386.229, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 386.229, \"end\": 386.389, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 386.389, \"end\": 387.409, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 387.409, 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\"我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 415.421, \"end\": 415.901, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 415.901, \"end\": 416.022, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 416.022, \"end\": 416.062, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 416.062, \"end\": 416.182, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 416.182, \"end\": 416.202, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 416.202, \"end\": 416.262, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 416.262, \"end\": 416.462, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 416.462, \"end\": 416.602, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 416.602, \"end\": 416.622, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 416.622, \"end\": 416.662, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 416.662, \"end\": 416.762, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, 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00:00:33,078\n謝謝主席麻煩請一下彭部長等一下有提到的單位自己今天就自己主動上來部長好我想先看一下剛剛劉委員關心了就是說這個報告的部分交出來你們都要檢查\n\n2\n00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:56,217\n我先請教就是在你們的報告的第一頁前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到就是說裸露佔置垃圾之掩埋場共53場那我想請教哪些是在現有的107座的掩埋場裡面哪些是在堆置場全部都是我們107座裡面\n\n3\n00:00:59,456 --> 00:01:20,950\n全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好?\n\n4\n00:01:22,984 --> 00:01:37,093\n那個好那首先我關心一下就是說這個112年底有53座的這個垃圾裸埋場那在這個8個月的時候呢你們就是有減對不起8\n\n5\n00:01:39,127 --> 00:01:59,554\n在8個月的時候您減少了4949座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露\n\n6\n00:02:00,809 --> 00:02:20,229\n所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是?第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理\n\n7\n00:02:20,829 --> 00:02:43,678\n對先初步先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題那有時候呢就是\n\n8\n00:02:44,678 --> 00:03:12,804\n也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎?其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個污水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定的一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭的\n\n9\n00:03:12,944 --> 00:03:39,623\n對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是熱山對所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦\n\n10\n00:03:41,618 --> 00:03:46,720\n就是那四座,四座也埋藏。就是都沒有問題了嗎?就復土起來就都沒有問題了?暫時沒有問題了。暫時?好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:59,185 --> 00:04:26,098\n還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場\n\n12\n00:04:27,310 --> 00:04:38,231\n但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害\n\n13\n00:04:39,438 --> 00:05:07,027\n未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內戶分很多的這個這個垃圾山的這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面的這個第102頁的這個環國就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理\n\n14\n00:05:08,227 --> 00:05:19,263\n你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家\n\n15\n00:05:22,044 --> 00:05:40,176\n我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的\n\n16\n00:05:42,037 --> 00:06:00,067\n主要大國。那哪些先進的國家?你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理?應該連日本也有。那你講到大國,德國算大國吧?德國也有。德國也這樣子處理?\n\n17\n00:06:06,639 --> 00:06:18,626\n因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場\n\n18\n00:06:23,248 --> 00:06:38,571\n我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題\n\n19\n00:06:46,943 --> 00:06:53,289\n因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場\n\n20\n00:06:55,421 --> 00:06:58,484\n我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考\n\n21\n00:07:21,741 --> 00:07:41,962\n部長,我要請教就是說垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址是地方政府決定還是環境部那事先要不要經過環境影響評估?呃,要,要不要回答?是,跟委員報告目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包\n\n22\n00:07:42,421 --> 00:08:01,274\n但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管\n\n23\n00:08:02,182 --> 00:08:17,743\n我們督導的部門就是要求阿你們誰管誰監督就我們監督阿所以大家都有責任嘛好我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府阿\n\n24\n00:08:19,192 --> 00:08:48,278\n好啦我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高啊立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念\n\n25\n00:08:49,198 --> 00:09:15,474\n你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量,量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋?\n\n26\n00:09:18,071 --> 00:09:40,672\n現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉\n\n27\n00:09:42,117 --> 00:09:49,771\n不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。一個是土,一個是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。\n\n28\n00:09:51,923 --> 00:10:17,245\n好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失\n\n29\n00:10:18,454 --> 00:10:46,097\n我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧\n\n30\n00:10:47,202 --> 00:11:12,672\n我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起\n\n31\n00:11:12,932 --> 00:11:30,165\n台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域不會不會吼不會嚴署長會不會在你的任內不會那你會做多久全國人多給我們指導\n\n32\n00:11:31,055 --> 00:11:50,034\n好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣不行?不會啦不會啦好,那如果不會增加,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來\n\n33\n00:11:51,367 --> 00:12:13,536\n其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作\n\n34\n00:12:14,176 --> 00:12:41,579\n我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那\n\n35\n00:12:43,220 --> 00:13:03,267\n我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險\n\n36\n00:13:04,867 --> 00:13:21,593\n報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年才一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為\n\n37\n00:13:23,473 --> 00:13:44,940\n一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了\n\n38\n00:13:45,620 --> 00:14:06,555\n所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力啦\n\n39\n00:14:22,782 --> 00:14:22,802\n謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12448\t33078\t謝謝主席麻煩請一下彭部長等一下有提到的單位自己今天就自己主動上來部長好我想先看一下剛剛劉委員關心了就是說這個報告的部分交出來你們都要檢查\n34719\t56217\t我先請教就是在你們的報告的第一頁前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到就是說裸露佔置垃圾之掩埋場共53場那我想請教哪些是在現有的107座的掩埋場裡面哪些是在堆置場全部都是我們107座裡面\n59456\t80950\t全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好?\n82984\t97093\t那個好那首先我關心一下就是說這個112年底有53座的這個垃圾裸埋場那在這個8個月的時候呢你們就是有減對不起8\n99127\t119554\t在8個月的時候您減少了49 49座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露\n120809\t140229\t所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是?第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理\n140829\t163678\t對先初步先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題那有時候呢就是\n164678\t192804\t也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎?其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個污水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定的一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭的\n192944\t219623\t對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是熱山對所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦\n221618\t226720\t就是那四座,四座也埋藏。就是都沒有問題了嗎?就復土起來就都沒有問題了?暫時沒有問題了。暫時?好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嗎?\n239185\t266098\t還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場\n267310\t278231\t但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害\n279438\t307027\t未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內戶分很多的這個這個垃圾山的這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面的這個第102頁的這個環國就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理\n308227\t319263\t你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家\n322044\t340176\t我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的\n342037\t360067\t主要大國。那哪些先進的國家?你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理?應該連日本也有。那你講到大國,德國算大國吧?德國也有。德國也這樣子處理?\n366639\t378626\t因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場\n383248\t398571\t我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題\n406943\t413289\t因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場\n415421\t418484\t我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考\n441741\t461962\t部長,我要請教就是說垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址是地方政府決定還是環境部那事先要不要經過環境影響評估?呃,要,要不要回答?是,跟委員報告目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包\n462421\t481274\t但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管\n482182\t497743\t我們督導的部門就是要求阿你們誰管誰監督就我們監督阿所以大家都有責任嘛好我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府阿\n499192\t528278\t好啦我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那 那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高啊立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念\n529198\t555474\t你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量,量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋?\n558071\t580672\t現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉\n582117\t589771\t不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。一個是土,一個是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。\n591923\t617245\t好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失\n618454\t646097\t我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧\n647202\t672672\t我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起\n672932\t690165\t台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域 不會 不會吼 不會 嚴署長會不會在你的任內 不會 那你會做多久 全國人多給我們指導\n691055\t710034\t好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣不行?不會啦不會啦好,那如果不會增加,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來\n711367\t733536\t其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作\n734176\t761579\t我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那\n763220\t783267\t我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險\n784867\t801593\t報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年才一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為\n803473\t824940\t一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了\n825620\t846555\t所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力啦\n846715\t862432\t﹏﹏\n862782\t862802\t謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩請一下彭部長等一下有提到的單位自己今天就自己主動上來部長好我想先看一下剛剛劉委員關心了就是說這個報告的部分交出來你們都要檢查\n我先請教就是在你們的報告的第一頁前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到就是說裸露佔置垃圾之掩埋場共53場那我想請教哪些是在現有的107座的掩埋場裡面哪些是在堆置場全部都是我們107座裡面\n全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好?\n那個好那首先我關心一下就是說這個112年底有53座的這個垃圾裸埋場那在這個8個月的時候呢你們就是有減對不起8\n在8個月的時候您減少了49 49座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露\n所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是?第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理\n對先初步先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題那有時候呢就是\n也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎?其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個污水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定的一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭的\n對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是熱山對所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦\n就是那四座,四座也埋藏。就是都沒有問題了嗎?就復土起來就都沒有問題了?暫時沒有問題了。暫時?好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嗎?\n還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場\n但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害\n未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內戶分很多的這個這個垃圾山的這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面的這個第102頁的這個環國就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理\n你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家\n我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的\n主要大國。那哪些先進的國家?你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理?應該連日本也有。那你講到大國,德國算大國吧?德國也有。德國也這樣子處理?\n因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場\n我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題\n因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場\n我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考\n部長,我要請教就是說垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址是地方政府決定還是環境部那事先要不要經過環境影響評估?呃,要,要不要回答?是,跟委員報告目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包\n但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管\n我們督導的部門就是要求阿你們誰管誰監督就我們監督阿所以大家都有責任嘛好我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府阿\n好啦我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那 那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高啊立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念\n你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量,量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋?\n現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉\n不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。一個是土,一個是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。\n好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失\n我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧\n我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起\n台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域 不會 不會吼 不會 嚴署長會不會在你的任內 不會 那你會做多久 全國人多給我們指導\n好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣不行?不會啦不會啦好,那如果不會增加,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來\n其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作\n我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那\n我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險\n報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年才一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為\n一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了\n所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力啦\n﹏﹏\n謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.448 --> 00:33.078\n謝謝主席麻煩請一下彭部長等一下有提到的單位自己今天就自己主動上來部長好我想先看一下剛剛劉委員關心了就是說這個報告的部分交出來你們都要檢查\n\n00:34.719 --> 00:56.217\n我先請教就是在你們的報告的第一頁前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到就是說裸露佔置垃圾之掩埋場共53場那我想請教哪些是在現有的107座的掩埋場裡面哪些是在堆置場全部都是我們107座裡面\n\n00:59.456 --> 01:20.950\n全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好?\n\n01:22.984 --> 01:37.093\n那個好那首先我關心一下就是說這個112年底有53座的這個垃圾裸埋場那在這個8個月的時候呢你們就是有減對不起8\n\n01:39.127 --> 01:59.554\n在8個月的時候您減少了4949座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露\n\n02:00.809 --> 02:20.229\n所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是?第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理\n\n02:20.829 --> 02:43.678\n對先初步先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題那有時候呢就是\n\n02:44.678 --> 03:12.804\n也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎?其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個污水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定的一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭的\n\n03:12.944 --> 03:39.623\n對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是熱山對所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦\n\n03:41.618 --> 03:46.720\n就是那四座,四座也埋藏。就是都沒有問題了嗎?就復土起來就都沒有問題了?暫時沒有問題了。暫時?好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嗎?\n\n03:59.185 --> 04:26.098\n還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場\n\n04:27.310 --> 04:38.231\n但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害\n\n04:39.438 --> 05:07.027\n未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內戶分很多的這個這個垃圾山的這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面的這個第102頁的這個環國就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理\n\n05:08.227 --> 05:19.263\n你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家\n\n05:22.044 --> 05:40.176\n我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的\n\n05:42.037 --> 06:00.067\n主要大國。那哪些先進的國家?你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理?應該連日本也有。那你講到大國,德國算大國吧?德國也有。德國也這樣子處理?\n\n06:06.639 --> 06:18.626\n因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場\n\n06:23.248 --> 06:38.571\n我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題\n\n06:46.943 --> 06:53.289\n因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場\n\n06:55.421 --> 06:58.484\n我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考\n\n07:21.741 --> 07:41.962\n部長,我要請教就是說垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址是地方政府決定還是環境部那事先要不要經過環境影響評估?呃,要,要不要回答?是,跟委員報告目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包\n\n07:42.421 --> 08:01.274\n但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管\n\n08:02.182 --> 08:17.743\n我們督導的部門就是要求阿你們誰管誰監督就我們監督阿所以大家都有責任嘛好我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府阿\n\n08:19.192 --> 08:48.278\n好啦我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高啊立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念\n\n08:49.198 --> 09:15.474\n你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量,量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋?\n\n09:18.071 --> 09:40.672\n現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉\n\n09:42.117 --> 09:49.771\n不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。一個是土,一個是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。\n\n09:51.923 --> 10:17.245\n好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失\n\n10:18.454 --> 10:46.097\n我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧\n\n10:47.202 --> 11:12.672\n我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起\n\n11:12.932 --> 11:30.165\n台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域不會不會吼不會嚴署長會不會在你的任內不會那你會做多久全國人多給我們指導\n\n11:31.055 --> 11:50.034\n好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣不行?不會啦不會啦好,那如果不會增加,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來\n\n11:51.367 --> 12:13.536\n其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作\n\n12:14.176 --> 12:41.579\n我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那\n\n12:43.220 --> 13:03.267\n我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險\n\n13:04.867 --> 13:21.593\n報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年才一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為\n\n13:23.473 --> 13:44.940\n一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了\n\n13:45.620 --> 14:06.555\n所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力啦\n\n14:22.782 --> 14:22.802\n謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.448,"end":33.078,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請一下彭部長等一下有提到的單位自己今天就自己主動上來部長好我想先看一下剛剛劉委員關心了就是說這個報告的部分交出來你們都要檢查"},{"start":34.719,"end":56.217,"text":"我先請教就是在你們的報告的第一頁前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到就是說裸露佔置垃圾之掩埋場共53場那我想請教哪些是在現有的107座的掩埋場裡面哪些是在堆置場全部都是我們107座裡面"},{"start":59.456,"end":80.95,"text":"全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好?"},{"start":82.984,"end":97.093,"text":"那個好那首先我關心一下就是說這個112年底有53座的這個垃圾裸埋場那在這個8個月的時候呢你們就是有減對不起8"},{"start":99.127,"end":119.554,"text":"在8個月的時候您減少了49 49座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露"},{"start":120.809,"end":140.229,"text":"所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是?第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理"},{"start":140.829,"end":163.678,"text":"對先初步先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題那有時候呢就是"},{"start":164.678,"end":192.804,"text":"也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎?其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個污水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定的一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭的"},{"start":192.944,"end":219.623,"text":"對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是熱山對所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦"},{"start":221.618,"end":226.72,"text":"就是那四座,四座也埋藏。就是都沒有問題了嗎?就復土起來就都沒有問題了?暫時沒有問題了。暫時?好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嗎?"},{"start":239.185,"end":266.098,"text":"還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場"},{"start":267.31,"end":278.231,"text":"但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害"},{"start":279.438,"end":307.027,"text":"未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內戶分很多的這個這個垃圾山的這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面的這個第102頁的這個環國就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理"},{"start":308.227,"end":319.263,"text":"你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家"},{"start":322.044,"end":340.176,"text":"我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的"},{"start":342.037,"end":360.067,"text":"主要大國。那哪些先進的國家?你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理?應該連日本也有。那你講到大國,德國算大國吧?德國也有。德國也這樣子處理?"},{"start":366.639,"end":378.626,"text":"因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場"},{"start":383.248,"end":398.571,"text":"我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題"},{"start":406.943,"end":413.289,"text":"因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場"},{"start":415.421,"end":418.484,"text":"我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考"},{"start":441.741,"end":461.962,"text":"部長,我要請教就是說垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址是地方政府決定還是環境部那事先要不要經過環境影響評估?呃,要,要不要回答?是,跟委員報告目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包"},{"start":462.421,"end":481.274,"text":"但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管"},{"start":482.182,"end":497.743,"text":"我們督導的部門就是要求阿你們誰管誰監督就我們監督阿所以大家都有責任嘛好我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府阿"},{"start":499.192,"end":528.278,"text":"好啦我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那 那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高啊立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念"},{"start":529.198,"end":555.474,"text":"你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量,量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋?"},{"start":558.071,"end":580.672,"text":"現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉"},{"start":582.117,"end":589.771,"text":"不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。一個是土,一個是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。"},{"start":591.923,"end":617.245,"text":"好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失"},{"start":618.454,"end":646.097,"text":"我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧"},{"start":647.202,"end":672.672,"text":"我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起"},{"start":672.932,"end":690.165,"text":"台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域 不會 不會吼 不會 嚴署長會不會在你的任內 不會 那你會做多久 全國人多給我們指導"},{"start":691.055,"end":710.034,"text":"好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣不行?不會啦不會啦好,那如果不會增加,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來"},{"start":711.367,"end":733.536,"text":"其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作"},{"start":734.176,"end":761.579,"text":"我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那"},{"start":763.22,"end":783.267,"text":"我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險"},{"start":784.867,"end":801.593,"text":"報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年才一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為"},{"start":803.473,"end":824.94,"text":"一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了"},{"start":825.62,"end":846.555,"text":"所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力啦"},{"start":846.715,"end":862.432,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":862.782,"end":862.802,"text":"謝謝部長"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:12:52 - 12:27:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155182,"gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時13分）好，謝謝主席，麻煩請一下彭部長。"],["主席：彭部長請。"],["陳委員瑩：等一下有提到的單位，今天就自己主動上來。"],["彭部長啓明：好。委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想先看一下，剛剛劉委員關心了這個報告，交出來你們都要檢查，所以要嚴謹。我先請教，你們報告的第一頁，前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到，裸露暫置垃圾之掩埋場共53場，我想請教哪些是在現有107座掩埋場裡面，哪些是在堆置場？"],["彭部長啓明：全部都是，全部都是我們107座裡面。"],["陳委員瑩：全部都在107座裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以它全部都是合法的，暫時裸露的都是合法的？"],["彭部長啓明：都是合法的，對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你這個是什麼東西？"],["彭部長啓明：這個也都合法的。"],["陳委員瑩：這個是合法的？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，堆成這樣。那我們再繼續看，你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函釋。首先我關心一下，112年底有53座垃圾裸埋場，在八個月的時間內你們減少至49座，但我想請教減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施，可以在短短的八個月的時間裡面，減少4座裸露堆置的狀態？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個大概第一個是覆土，第二個是打包，用這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露。"],["陳委員瑩：好，請問一下你們覆土主要的功能是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了，因為未來如果量能夠的話，或是有SRF好的技術的話，它還是可以拿來做分類，所以等於是暫時把它掩埋覆土。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們就是在視覺上先處理。"],["彭部長啓明：對，先初步處理。"],["陳委員瑩：這個裸露堆置不是只有環境衛生不佳，會引起附近民眾的反感，他們一定很不滿，因為這個包括了惡臭、地下水污染、蚊蟲孳生，還有清運的交通、時間的這些問題。有時候也要伴隨需要，提供地方補償回饋金等等的問題。我不知道你們這裡減少的4座是哪4座？剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個如果要掩埋覆土，它的污水處理一定要做到完全澈底，都有一定的規範。掩埋覆土之後，因為它很厚，所以它基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生，所以這個……"],["陳委員瑩：覆土很厚就不會有惡臭產生。"],["彭部長啓明：對啊！還要把它再包起來，所以基本上就很像我們現在有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山，那個其實裡面也都是垃圾。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我剛剛提的惡臭、地下水、蚊蟲孳生，還有清運這些統統都沒有問題？"],["彭部長啓明：這些都要做，這個都是標準的掩埋場……"],["陳委員瑩：你們現在覆土之後都沒有這些問題？"],["彭部長啓明：要覆土之前都要先把它蓋住……"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！你就跟我說，現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了，因為你都做好了。"],["彭部長啓明：就是那4座，4座掩埋場。"],["陳委員瑩：就是都沒有問題了嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：就是覆土起來就都沒有問題了。"],["彭部長啓明：暫時沒有問題啦！"],["陳委員瑩：暫時，好。你剛剛說垃圾都會焚燒，這之後會去焚燒，還是它就是變成……因為你們暫時堆置，雖然是暫時的，但是我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算，因為你如果說減少了堆置場，那等於多了掩埋場的意思啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦！"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！因為你就覆蓋了，覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：就是另類的掩埋場。"],["彭部長啓明：它其實本來就是掩埋場。"],["陳委員瑩：我講的是堆置的部分。"],["彭部長啓明：對，它堆置有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方，但是我們把它覆土起來，它也不會造成環境景觀上的危害。未來它跟那個最終處置的這種，例如說很多的垃圾山，這樣處理是不一樣的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係。因為時間的關係，我們先往下討論。我們看一下今年9月4號出刊的天下雜誌第102頁，我們環管署的顏署長有特別講，不裸露就是妥善處理，你有特別講，說這個是國際間接受的處理方式。本席想要請教，請問你講的這個國際間包含了哪些國家？"],["顏署長旭明：我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流，一個是焚化，一個是掩埋。當然還有其他的，例如說氣化等等……"],["陳委員瑩：我的問題沒有很複雜，我只問有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式？"],["顏署長旭明：譬如說，美國、澳洲目前都還是屬於掩埋。"],["陳委員瑩：還有呢？"],["顏署長旭明：主要是大國啦！"],["陳委員瑩：大國，好，哪些先進的國家？你剛剛除了講澳洲，還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理？"],["顏署長旭明：是，應該連日本也有掩埋。"],["陳委員瑩：你講到大國，德國算大國吧？"],["彭部長啓明：有，德國也有。"],["陳委員瑩：德國也這樣子處理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我有去看過。"],["陳委員瑩：好，主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分，他們在2005年6月的時候，開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場。我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範，也就是從2007年1月1號開始我們也跟進。大家可以看一下簡報，所以這個是國際的做法，還是國際的笑話？還是說這個有公然違法的問題？因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始，不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我其實也到德國去看，例如說他們任何的東西燃燒，基本上如果燃燒最好是經過有效率的分類啦！如果有效率的分類……"],["陳委員瑩：我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣啦！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你說國際間都接受，我就不太清楚，因為我們看到的文獻資料是這個樣子，就提供給你們參考。部長，我要請教的是，垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址，是地方政府決定還是環境部？要不要事先經過環境影響評估？"],["彭部長啓明：要，署長要不要回答一下。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，目前應該是說，在現有的合法掩埋場裡面，它進去應該覆土或打包，但是它沒有做這件事情，所以我們要求它依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式處理。"],["陳委員瑩：所以就是地方政府的問題嘛！你的意思是這樣？"],["顏署長旭明：地方政府管理的掩埋場，垃圾也是地方政府的，我們督導的……"],["陳委員瑩：對啦，可是地方政府誰管？"],["顏署長旭明：我們督導的部分就是要求……"],["陳委員瑩：你們督導啊！那你們是誰管、誰監督？就是我們監督啊！所以大家都有責任嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["陳委員瑩：我也沒有說……當然我不會說是地方政府的責任嘛！我現在說連我都有責任，我都講進去，我就不會講地方政府啊！好啦！我這樣講，給你參考，不要講地方政府好嗎？你們也有責任。","目前已經有107座掩埋場，還有354萬立方空間，我想要釐清一下，立方空間的公式是什麼？我們都學過長乘寬乘高，那立方空間呢？"],["彭部長啓明：就是1米。其實它乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念。"],["陳委員瑩：你的意思是說，這個是立方公尺嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：公尺。我們現在用公尺，因為垃圾的比重……"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以「空間」是還要乘上比重的意思？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對，如果以量來說的話。"],["陳委員瑩：OK，因為這個之前在其他地方沒有看過，它們足夠容納72萬噸裸露的垃圾嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋？"],["彭部長啓明：現在就是。"],["陳委員瑩：現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，就是直接包起來？"],["彭部長啓明：打包處理。"],["陳委員瑩：然後就埋進去？"],["彭部長啓明：打包之後就沒有埋，或是這個垃圾直接覆土埋掉。"],["陳委員瑩：好，不是埋進去，而是把它蓋起來？"],["彭部長啓明：直接蓋起來。"],["陳委員瑩：喔，那不一樣啦！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["陳委員瑩：一個在地底下，一個在地面上。埋起來，看不見！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那到底這樣埋……可能在法規上還是要看一下。","目前49座裸露場地對於地方的影響難道都是一樣的嗎？有沒有特別複雜、處理困難的場址？你們環境部有沒有應對的措施？希望什麼時候讓這49座的裸露場址全部統統消失？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們希望3年內可以解決這個問題，但我必須說這是暫時之計。"],["陳委員瑩：3年內？3年內應該還在部長任內嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我希望我可以做到那個時候。"],["陳委員瑩：顏署長，會在您任內完成嗎？你應該會待得比部長還久吧？"],["顏署長旭明：希望。"],["陳委員瑩：你是事務官，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：我跟他一起退休，對，我們一定會完成。"],["陳委員瑩：做完再走吧！"],["彭部長啓明：我會努力。"],["陳委員瑩：我們也會跟總統講一下，做完再走。"],["彭部長啓明：我會努力。報告委員，處理這個是要中央跟地方合作啦！所以我們的確一個縣市、一個縣市，跟環保局一起來「咒誓」啦！"],["陳委員瑩：對啦，我是很擔心，因為剛剛我就一直聽到顏署長說這是地方政府管的，然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊，所以我趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們都是通力合作啦！所以我都是找縣市首長跟環保局長一起……"],["陳委員瑩：好，重點是在你們任內，臺灣還會不會有新增加的垃圾裸露場域？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：不會齁？","顏署長，會不會？在你的任內？"],["顏署長旭明：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：那你會做多久？"],["顏署長旭明：請委員多給我們指導。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你不要說「不會」，結果半年你就不在這裡了，這樣不行！"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦、不會啦！"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果不會增加，我們比較關心過去為什麼會有這麼多裸露的場址，你們升格之後到底有什麼有效的法令和政策工具來禁止，全部把它覆土、蓋起來？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我要感謝社會有這個壓力，我是覺得這都是一個正面的循環，我們也認真地去面對這個事情，所以我是覺得這個法令，從源頭的減量、整個很好的循環體系的建立，這才是必要的。我必須說，委員，如果我可以解決，我就解決，這個都要靠中央、地方一起合作。"],["陳委員瑩：因為召委站起來，我有一點緊張，因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委，然後我質詢。我自己當召委的時候，通常都會再多給一點時間。謝謝。"],["主席：已經給很久了。"],["陳委員瑩：我快問完了、我快問完了。","針對現有的裸露場地，你們投入很多監控設備，甚至用了AI的技術，AI技術的監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣。我要請教的是，垃圾裸露了，並不會因為這些監控就不裸露，也不會因為監控就消失不見，所以我們監控的意義在哪裡？是因為怕人家偷倒，還是怕火災等環境風險？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是為了掌握垃圾量，我們未來會把每個縣市、每個點全部都公開，讓大家知道它處理了多少。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以你們這樣就有能力管理了？"],["彭部長啓明：希望、希望。不然的話，我們數據都是半年來一次。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我們就不要再推到地方了。大家一定要看一下部長英姿煥發地去視察各地方的垃圾處理場，還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建。我們也深刻感覺到，對比過去的環保署，環境部對於焚化爐的政策好像真的已經有所不同了。過去我也曾經質詢環保署，希望可以正面看待焚化爐設施的進步性和邊際效應的問題，我很肯定部長有這樣的新思維，鼓勵用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題。我們臺灣並沒有因為少子化，垃圾就變得比較少，但是環境部至少要努力，不要再有新的垃圾裸露的場地產生，而且我們要真正解決裸露場地的問題，絕對不能以粉飾太平的心態，用覆土的方式全部把它蓋起來、看不見。本席要提醒不要粉飾太平，因為這樣會把污染繼續留給民眾。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員瑩：我這段說完真的要下去了，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：接續請伍麗華委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}}