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00:00:42,460\n所以社會嘩然大家都說這就是要等同實質廢死那我想前面也非常多委員都已經提有講到相關的問題但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家做討論也想各單位表明自己的立場\n\n3\n00:00:43,757 --> 00:01:08,218\n首先就兩個這個PPT上面的條件做討論原本原文在這個PPT上面那簡單來說就是如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中只要無法向監獄外的人身心正常那就不應該被判處死刑想請問一下我們的司法院的代表這個秘書長我這樣的理解有錯嗎\n\n4\n00:01:10,462 --> 00:01:15,283\n那我想請教一下這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後會出現身心狀況應該是非常容易發生的事情吧?\n\n5\n00:01:34,807 --> 00:01:45,304\n各案有沒有這種情形可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定啦那不見得說都會發生我想不見得但是比例應該挺高的吧\n\n6\n00:01:46,760 --> 00:02:10,454\n好我給你看看我們也可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待痛苦且毫無尊嚴我想在這樣的情況之下很難身心沒有一點狀況其實也不要說死刑犯我想大部分人只要長期被關起來長期被監禁的環境下身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧是不是\n\n7\n00:02:13,206 --> 00:02:37,760\n這部分可能要專業的去評估還是我們可以請那個法務部長是不是可以請我們部長可不可以告訴我們這樣的情況在監獄裡面這個受刑人的身心都很健康嗎跟委員報告這是屬於那個執行面的問題那我想我們會做一個輔導那做一個協助那這個執行面是不是我可以請那個矯正署長來回答好\n\n8\n00:02:40,425 --> 00:03:08,839\n報告委員目前前台監所是以毒品患為最多那以所謂的精神問題毒品患比如說吸食安慰他命他可能會破壞他的比如說腦神經他會有被害妄想等等我想請教就是說你在長期這樣子收押的情況之下是不是受刑人其實很容易不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常應該是會出現一些精神異常或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了\n\n9\n00:03:09,315 --> 00:03:31,418\n跟委員報告,我們現在跟鄰近的納入二代健保,會給他比如說精神方面的看診,或包括說在配慰方面...好,你沒有回答我的問題喔,我想說好,我還是,我看就不用再回答了,我還是回到剛剛講的這個段落,基本上只要在審查的判斷的過程,他整個審判的過程當中,他只要說他精神有狀況,\n\n10\n00:03:32,319 --> 00:03:33,260\n是否犯罪最嚴重的情節?\n\n11\n00:04:01,638 --> 00:04:14,491\n是不是罪犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情形?那法官他個案他一定要調查所有的這個證證因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的那個好那也有把母子一起吊死的\n\n12\n00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:41,046\n這樣嚴不嚴重?也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的甚至也有把我們人民的保姆殺害之後說把他判死刑的話就是會讓法律變得殘忍所以應該要廢除死刑的這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情結者那是怎麼樣?還有什麼方法可以比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情結嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:42,947 --> 00:05:12,188\n跟委員報告那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好秘書長部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌青天白日勳章現在啊到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌\n\n14\n00:05:13,715 --> 00:05:40,321\n真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會\n\n15\n00:05:44,291 --> 00:05:55,662\n我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死寶院司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識\n\n16\n00:05:57,108 --> 00:06:03,432\n我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾\n\n17\n00:06:27,455 --> 00:06:45,676\n大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6915\t27930\t謝謝主席那有請我們的秘書長麻煩秘書長委員好我想我們今天在這裡都是討論非常沉重的話題那這次大法官對於憲法判決結果媒體也說這叫新增八道的生死門也就是說八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑\n28670\t42460\t所以社會嘩然大家都說這就是要等同實質廢死那我想前面也非常多委員都已經提有講到相關的問題但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家做討論也想各單位表明自己的立場\n43757\t68218\t首先就兩個這個PPT上面的條件做討論原本原文在這個PPT上面那簡單來說就是如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中只要無法向監獄外的人身心正常那就不應該被判處死刑想請問一下我們的司法院的代表這個秘書長我這樣的理解有錯嗎\n70462\t75283\t那我想請教一下這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後會出現身心狀況應該是非常容易發生的事情吧?\n94807\t105304\t各案有沒有這種情形可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定啦那不見得說都會發生我想不見得但是比例應該挺高的吧\n106760\t130454\t好我給你看看我們也可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待痛苦且毫無尊嚴我想在這樣的情況之下很難身心沒有一點狀況其實也不要說死刑犯我想大部分人只要長期被關起來長期被監禁的環境下身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧是不是\n133206\t157760\t這部分可能要專業的去評估還是我們可以請那個法務部長是不是可以請我們部長可不可以告訴我們這樣的情況在監獄裡面這個受刑人的身心都很健康嗎跟委員報告這是屬於那個執行面的問題那我想我們會做一個輔導那做一個協助那這個執行面是不是我可以請那個矯正署長來回答好\n160425\t188839\t報告委員目前前台監所是以毒品患為最多那以所謂的精神問題毒品患比如說吸食安慰他命他可能會破壞他的比如說腦神經他會有被害妄想等等我想請教就是說你在長期這樣子收押的情況之下是不是受刑人其實很容易不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常應該是會出現一些精神異常或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了\n189315\t211418\t跟委員報告,我們現在跟鄰近的納入二代健保,會給他比如說精神方面的看診,或包括說在配慰方面...好,你沒有回答我的問題喔,我想說好,我還是,我看就不用再回答了,我還是回到剛剛講的這個段落,基本上只要在審查的判斷的過程,他整個審判的過程當中,他只要說他精神有狀況,\n212319\t213260\t是否犯罪最嚴重的情節?\n241638\t254491\t是不是罪犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情形?那法官他個案他一定要調查所有的這個證證因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的那個好那也有把母子一起吊死的\n256196\t281046\t這樣嚴不嚴重?也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的甚至也有把我們人民的保姆殺害之後說把他判死刑的話就是會讓法律變得殘忍所以應該要廢除死刑的這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情結者那是怎麼樣?還有什麼方法可以比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情結嗎?\n282947\t312188\t跟委員報告 那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好 秘書長 部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌 青天白日勳章現在啊 到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌\n313715\t340321\t真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會\n344291\t355662\t我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死寶院司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識\n357108\t363432\t我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾\n387455\t405676\t大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席那有請我們的秘書長麻煩秘書長委員好我想我們今天在這裡都是討論非常沉重的話題那這次大法官對於憲法判決結果媒體也說這叫新增八道的生死門也就是說八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑\n所以社會嘩然大家都說這就是要等同實質廢死那我想前面也非常多委員都已經提有講到相關的問題但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家做討論也想各單位表明自己的立場\n首先就兩個這個PPT上面的條件做討論原本原文在這個PPT上面那簡單來說就是如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中只要無法向監獄外的人身心正常那就不應該被判處死刑想請問一下我們的司法院的代表這個秘書長我這樣的理解有錯嗎\n那我想請教一下這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後會出現身心狀況應該是非常容易發生的事情吧?\n各案有沒有這種情形可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定啦那不見得說都會發生我想不見得但是比例應該挺高的吧\n好我給你看看我們也可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待痛苦且毫無尊嚴我想在這樣的情況之下很難身心沒有一點狀況其實也不要說死刑犯我想大部分人只要長期被關起來長期被監禁的環境下身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧是不是\n這部分可能要專業的去評估還是我們可以請那個法務部長是不是可以請我們部長可不可以告訴我們這樣的情況在監獄裡面這個受刑人的身心都很健康嗎跟委員報告這是屬於那個執行面的問題那我想我們會做一個輔導那做一個協助那這個執行面是不是我可以請那個矯正署長來回答好\n報告委員目前前台監所是以毒品患為最多那以所謂的精神問題毒品患比如說吸食安慰他命他可能會破壞他的比如說腦神經他會有被害妄想等等我想請教就是說你在長期這樣子收押的情況之下是不是受刑人其實很容易不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常應該是會出現一些精神異常或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了\n跟委員報告,我們現在跟鄰近的納入二代健保,會給他比如說精神方面的看診,或包括說在配慰方面...好,你沒有回答我的問題喔,我想說好,我還是,我看就不用再回答了,我還是回到剛剛講的這個段落,基本上只要在審查的判斷的過程,他整個審判的過程當中,他只要說他精神有狀況,\n是否犯罪最嚴重的情節?\n是不是罪犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情形?那法官他個案他一定要調查所有的這個證證因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的那個好那也有把母子一起吊死的\n這樣嚴不嚴重?也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的甚至也有把我們人民的保姆殺害之後說把他判死刑的話就是會讓法律變得殘忍所以應該要廢除死刑的這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情結者那是怎麼樣?還有什麼方法可以比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情結嗎?\n跟委員報告 那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好 秘書長 部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌 青天白日勳章現在啊 到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌\n真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會\n我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死寶院司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識\n我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾\n大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.915 --> 00:27.930\n謝謝主席那有請我們的秘書長麻煩秘書長委員好我想我們今天在這裡都是討論非常沉重的話題那這次大法官對於憲法判決結果媒體也說這叫新增八道的生死門也就是說八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑\n\n00:28.670 --> 00:42.460\n所以社會嘩然大家都說這就是要等同實質廢死那我想前面也非常多委員都已經提有講到相關的問題但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家做討論也想各單位表明自己的立場\n\n00:43.757 --> 01:08.218\n首先就兩個這個PPT上面的條件做討論原本原文在這個PPT上面那簡單來說就是如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中只要無法向監獄外的人身心正常那就不應該被判處死刑想請問一下我們的司法院的代表這個秘書長我這樣的理解有錯嗎\n\n01:10.462 --> 01:15.283\n那我想請教一下這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後會出現身心狀況應該是非常容易發生的事情吧?\n\n01:34.807 --> 01:45.304\n各案有沒有這種情形可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定啦那不見得說都會發生我想不見得但是比例應該挺高的吧\n\n01:46.760 --> 02:10.454\n好我給你看看我們也可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待痛苦且毫無尊嚴我想在這樣的情況之下很難身心沒有一點狀況其實也不要說死刑犯我想大部分人只要長期被關起來長期被監禁的環境下身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧是不是\n\n02:13.206 --> 02:37.760\n這部分可能要專業的去評估還是我們可以請那個法務部長是不是可以請我們部長可不可以告訴我們這樣的情況在監獄裡面這個受刑人的身心都很健康嗎跟委員報告這是屬於那個執行面的問題那我想我們會做一個輔導那做一個協助那這個執行面是不是我可以請那個矯正署長來回答好\n\n02:40.425 --> 03:08.839\n報告委員目前前台監所是以毒品患為最多那以所謂的精神問題毒品患比如說吸食安慰他命他可能會破壞他的比如說腦神經他會有被害妄想等等我想請教就是說你在長期這樣子收押的情況之下是不是受刑人其實很容易不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常應該是會出現一些精神異常或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了\n\n03:09.315 --> 03:31.418\n跟委員報告,我們現在跟鄰近的納入二代健保,會給他比如說精神方面的看診,或包括說在配慰方面...好,你沒有回答我的問題喔,我想說好,我還是,我看就不用再回答了,我還是回到剛剛講的這個段落,基本上只要在審查的判斷的過程,他整個審判的過程當中,他只要說他精神有狀況,\n\n03:32.319 --> 03:33.260\n是否犯罪最嚴重的情節?\n\n04:01.638 --> 04:14.491\n是不是罪犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情形?那法官他個案他一定要調查所有的這個證證因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的那個好那也有把母子一起吊死的\n\n04:16.196 --> 04:41.046\n這樣嚴不嚴重?也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的甚至也有把我們人民的保姆殺害之後說把他判死刑的話就是會讓法律變得殘忍所以應該要廢除死刑的這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情結者那是怎麼樣?還有什麼方法可以比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情結嗎?\n\n04:42.947 --> 05:12.188\n跟委員報告那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好秘書長部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌青天白日勳章現在啊到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌\n\n05:13.715 --> 05:40.321\n真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會\n\n05:44.291 --> 05:55.662\n我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死寶院司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識\n\n05:57.108 --> 06:03.432\n我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾\n\n06:27.455 --> 06:45.676\n大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.915,"end":27.93,"text":"謝謝主席那有請我們的秘書長麻煩秘書長委員好我想我們今天在這裡都是討論非常沉重的話題那這次大法官對於憲法判決結果媒體也說這叫新增八道的生死門也就是說八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑"},{"start":28.67,"end":42.46,"text":"所以社會嘩然大家都說這就是要等同實質廢死那我想前面也非常多委員都已經提有講到相關的問題但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家做討論也想各單位表明自己的立場"},{"start":43.757,"end":68.218,"text":"首先就兩個這個PPT上面的條件做討論原本原文在這個PPT上面那簡單來說就是如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中只要無法向監獄外的人身心正常那就不應該被判處死刑想請問一下我們的司法院的代表這個秘書長我這樣的理解有錯嗎"},{"start":70.462,"end":75.283,"text":"那我想請教一下這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後會出現身心狀況應該是非常容易發生的事情吧?"},{"start":94.807,"end":105.304,"text":"各案有沒有這種情形可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定啦那不見得說都會發生我想不見得但是比例應該挺高的吧"},{"start":106.76,"end":130.454,"text":"好我給你看看我們也可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待痛苦且毫無尊嚴我想在這樣的情況之下很難身心沒有一點狀況其實也不要說死刑犯我想大部分人只要長期被關起來長期被監禁的環境下身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧是不是"},{"start":133.206,"end":157.76,"text":"這部分可能要專業的去評估還是我們可以請那個法務部長是不是可以請我們部長可不可以告訴我們這樣的情況在監獄裡面這個受刑人的身心都很健康嗎跟委員報告這是屬於那個執行面的問題那我想我們會做一個輔導那做一個協助那這個執行面是不是我可以請那個矯正署長來回答好"},{"start":160.425,"end":188.839,"text":"報告委員目前前台監所是以毒品患為最多那以所謂的精神問題毒品患比如說吸食安慰他命他可能會破壞他的比如說腦神經他會有被害妄想等等我想請教就是說你在長期這樣子收押的情況之下是不是受刑人其實很容易不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常應該是會出現一些精神異常或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了"},{"start":189.315,"end":211.418,"text":"跟委員報告,我們現在跟鄰近的納入二代健保,會給他比如說精神方面的看診,或包括說在配慰方面...好,你沒有回答我的問題喔,我想說好,我還是,我看就不用再回答了,我還是回到剛剛講的這個段落,基本上只要在審查的判斷的過程,他整個審判的過程當中,他只要說他精神有狀況,"},{"start":212.319,"end":213.26,"text":"是否犯罪最嚴重的情節?"},{"start":241.638,"end":254.491,"text":"是不是罪犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情形?那法官他個案他一定要調查所有的這個證證因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的那個好那也有把母子一起吊死的"},{"start":256.196,"end":281.046,"text":"這樣嚴不嚴重?也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的甚至也有把我們人民的保姆殺害之後說把他判死刑的話就是會讓法律變得殘忍所以應該要廢除死刑的這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情結者那是怎麼樣?還有什麼方法可以比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情結嗎?"},{"start":282.947,"end":312.188,"text":"跟委員報告 那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好 秘書長 部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌 青天白日勳章現在啊 到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌"},{"start":313.715,"end":340.321,"text":"真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會"},{"start":344.291,"end":355.662,"text":"我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死寶院司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識"},{"start":357.108,"end":363.432,"text":"我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾"},{"start":387.455,"end":405.676,"text":"大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:36:53 - 12:43:44","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155187,"gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時36分）謝謝主席，有請秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們今天在這裡討論非常沉重的話題。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：這次大法官，對於憲法判決結果，媒體也說這叫新增八道生死門，也就是八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑，所以社會譁然，大家都說這就等同實質廢死。前面也有非常多委員都已經講到相關的問題，但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家討論，也請各單位表明自己的立場。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：首先就PPT上面的兩個條件做討論，原文在這個PPT上面。簡單來說，如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中，只要無法像監獄外的人身心正常，那就不應該被判處死刑。想請問司法院的代理秘書長，我這樣的理解有錯嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為精神障礙，誠如簡報所寫的，心智缺陷，致他的自我辯護能力不足，或者是受刑能力有欠缺的時候，都是像委員所講的，不能科處死刑跟不能執行死刑。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我想請教，這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後，會出現身心狀況，應該是非常容易發生的事情吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：個案有沒有這種情形，可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定，不見得……"],["廖委員偉翔：評估跟鑑定，對，剛剛的意思……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：不見得都會發生，我想不見得。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是比例應該挺高的吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想我們不敢做這種推定。"],["廖委員偉翔：我給你看看，我們可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說，死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待，痛苦且毫無尊嚴。我想在這樣的情況之下，很難身心沒有一點狀況。其實也不要說死刑犯，我想大部分人只要長期被關起來，在長期被監禁的環境下，身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧！是不是？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：這部分可能要專業去做評估。"],["廖委員偉翔：還是我們可以請法務部長，是不是請部長？可不可以告訴我們，這樣的情況，在監獄裡面受刑人的身心都很健康嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這是屬於執行面的問題，我想我們會做輔導、協助。執行面是不是我可以請矯正署署長來回答？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，目前全臺監所是以毒品犯為最多，那以所謂的精神問題，毒品犯比如吸食安非他命，可能會破壞他的比如腦神經，他會有被害妄想等等。"],["廖委員偉翔：抱歉，我想請教的就是說，在長期這樣子收押的情況之下，是不是受刑人其實很容易，不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常，應該是會出現一些精神異常，或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我們現在跟鄰近的，收容人已納入二代健保，會給他比如說精神方面的看診，或包括說在配業方面……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，你沒有回答我的問題，我看還是就不用再回答了，我回到剛剛講的這個段落。基本上只要在審查判斷的過程，在整個審判的過程當中，他只要說他精神有狀況，就不應該被判死刑，我想這就是大法官的解釋，這也是我們一般民眾沒有辦法理解和沒有辦法接受的，非常的離譜。另外，我也想要問憲法判決裡面還有要求，必須是最嚴重的犯罪情節才能夠判死，我也很好奇這樣的定義到底是什麼？我整理了一些例子，姦殺檳榔西施的人，這樣子嚴不嚴重？是不是犯最嚴重的情節？是不是犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情節？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，法官就個案一定要調查所有的卷證，因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那也有把母子一起吊死的，這樣嚴不嚴重？也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的，甚至也有把我們的人民保母殺害之後，說把他判死刑的話會讓法律變得殘忍，所以應該要廢除死刑的。這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情節者，那是怎麼樣？還有什麼方法才比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情節嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，個案當然被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重，但是檢察官就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重，他會……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：好，秘書長、部長，以前古代有這種開國的元勳，可以拿到免死金牌、青天白日勳章，現在到我們這個社會，現在非常的悲哀，居然是大法官頒給作奸犯科的人免死金牌，給了他八道免死金牌，真的是讓人民非常的心寒。這八道免死金牌，讓人民覺得非常的錯愕。","另外，我也想要請問警政署跟法務部，這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限，就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑，所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞，也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾，會不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想現在死刑制度還是維持，現在也沒有說一定就不會判死刑，還是有判死的。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識，那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：那個所謂的共識是假設法務部訂定那一個，包含說最嚴重犯罪要具體化的刑法第五十七條甚至第六十三條的規定的話，我們會配合法務部去研究。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想我最後做個結論，這一次的大法官釋憲，讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了作奸犯科罪犯八道免死金牌，讓人非常的遺憾，大法官滿紙的荒唐、人民一把心酸淚，讓我們覺得對於未來非常的沒有光明，這個社會沒有公平正義可言。所以要再次強調，我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑，我們也反對廢除實質的死刑，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員。","下一位我們請牛煦庭委員發言。"],["牛委員煦庭：（12：44）好，謝謝主席，司法院秘書長有請。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們都不知道該怎麼說這個事，我們就從個案開始講起吧，最近這個退休女老師的先搶再姦再殺的案件，是不是最嚴重犯行？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這個是個案，我沒有參與這個案子的審理，那案子的卷證，我們各審的法官本於他自己審理的結果，本於他對法律的認知去做判斷，我們尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以基本上是甩鍋給法官嘛，他們處理就好，對不對？他們認定就好，對不對？由他們來認定。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為個案，說實話，我們沒有接觸到這些卷證，我們恐怕不適宜在沒有接觸到全部的案情的時候，就隨意的就這個部分下判斷。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛有很多委員都有講了，舉出了不同的案件，擄人勒贖的、燒車的、吊死的、連續殺人的、隨機殺人的，都很嚴重，也都是殺人。現在司法院對於法院的這個大法官的詮釋，等於給了一大堆的裁量，又修改了門檻，現在還要全體一致決呀！這個實務上來講……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：各審級……"],["牛委員煦庭：會不會造成判決死刑更加困難，實務上來講，會不會？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，其實在憲判期之前，在兩公約之後，我們簽署公政公約之後，公政公約已經要求視個案最嚴重，那時候其實在沒憲判之前，有一些裁判就已經援引公政公約去設限，那這一次比較要求一些正當程序的部分。其實，法院的實務上面，真正判處死刑可能也不是簡簡單單的就會去達成，因為大家都知道這個是剝奪生命而且無可挽回的。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要在那裡繞圈子，在報告裡面其實你寫得很清楚了，給了一大堆，除了我們剛剛講法官自行可以按心證來認定是否是最嚴重之外，你也開了一大堆的後門，包含精神障礙等等。那我要問的是你們包含前面的這個釋憲的這些詮釋，跟你這幾天的報告、這些重點，我就問，你寫了一大堆保障加害者人權的各種條款跟各種條件，可是你在詮釋這個憲法的過程之中，你們有沒有考慮法律在社會中公信力的重要性，有沒有考量法律有維護社會秩序穩定跟人心安定的作用，有沒有？有的話請你拿出來講一講，我們從來都沒有看到這樣的事情，這些概念不重要嗎？秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我想憲法法庭當然是基於維護這個憲政秩序的穩定，因為憲法是整個國家最基本的，高於其他的法律，所以他解釋這個憲法的本質意旨，保障生命權這個意旨，我想大家都應該要尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以你又推給大法官嘛，反正就他們解釋的，對不對？我們回歸到剛剛那個姦殺案來講，這其中有媒體的報導裡面講，就是他之所以可以逃過死刑，有很重要的原因是因為他是屬於隨機性、並非預謀的，所以並非最嚴重之行為。好，你從個人角度來講，你講預謀可能比隨機更嚴重，可是從社會的角度來講，難道隨機殺人帶給社會的危害比預謀殺人差嗎？我們剛剛幾個委員在下面討論，我們一致都認為，我想人民、百姓也都這樣認為，隨機殺人對治安的危害、對社會的影響，是比預謀殺人更嚴重的。可是從你們的詮釋、你們的想像、你們的主張裡面，他不是最嚴重，所以我們可以給他放一條生路，這不是胡鬧是什麼呢？剛剛我們也討論憲政秩序，講得真好，我們在修國會改革法案的時候，你講立法院擴權，我告訴你，現在司法院擴權，所有事情由你大法官說了算，然後你這個擴權侵害到的是什麼？侵害到的是整個社會對於我們司法系統的公信力，我今天這樣子的說法，秘書長你要反駁嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官解釋憲法本來就是憲法的意旨大法官解釋，那各個機關，包含我們都必須要尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：都要尊重，現在就是一群沒有民意基礎的蛋頭在搞擴權，然後把所有的權勢全抓在自己的手上，我們立法院是五權機關裡面最貼近民意的，我們今天如果不把這些話講清楚，我們有愧選民的所託啦！","法務部長，我要請教幾個問題，我們剛剛已經確定司法院對於最嚴重犯行大概也不會有什麼明確的定義跟跡證，那我們回到法務部的權責，法務部你總管下面的檢察系統，對於維護社會安定，你的想法是什麼？你覺得有沒有必要考量社會大眾的想法，跟法律維繫社會秩序的公信力跟安定性，有沒有必要考慮？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，所以我們一直主張死刑是合憲的，而且我們從那個憲判的辯論到目前，我們的立場都沒有改變過，但是既然憲判已經做這樣的一個判決出來，我們就是趕緊完善法律的……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在37個還沒有執行的，他們是不是現在也……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個現在跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：他們會不會通通提非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要看，因為這個還要調卷宗，這個整個是……"],["牛委員煦庭：有可能對不對？不一定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個依憲法、訴訟法是檢察總長的職權，就這37個個案，我相信他會做妥適的……"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼時候會有結果？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒辦法確定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒辦法保證，但是因為這37個個案，我想最高檢他們會用很嚴謹的態度去做一個審核……"],["牛委員煦庭：整個法務部系統對於這37個，你現在口口聲聲講它合憲，他講它合憲，什麼時候會執行？怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這部分，我們先看那個有大……"],["牛委員煦庭：司法院秘書長說解釋的是大法官……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在講是檢察總長處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要隨著運作的結果，我們審核的結果，我們才知道這個是不是要提非常上訴。"],["牛委員煦庭：以前在所謂大搞實質廢死的時代，很多時候是最後那張公文放在你桌子上，你就不批，對不對？以前當然不是你啦！現在經過了這樣的程序之後，放在你桌子上你會不會批？如果這37個經過程序之後，確定要執行的時候批不批？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個如果審核通過的話，當然要執行啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：當然要執行齁，那你覺得你有沒有機會批到？我們現在擔心的，民間擔心是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法幫委員……我想這部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：我要提醒部長的是，民間擔心的是這37個案例可能到了最後，十幾二十年以後，大概也不會放在你桌上，這就是大家擔心的事，對不對？我們有太多後門了，太多機會、太多巧門可以逃開了，這個是社會的一大悲哀！現在對於釋憲後修法的方向同樣，通篇照顧加害人權，對於被害者、被害家屬、社會穩定的重要性跟權利隻字未提，我不知道兩位是忘記了還是害怕想起來，但是我要嚴肅的提醒，如果這個事情未來沒有標準、沒有依據，它只會讓事情更複雜，鄭捷難道不是隨機殺人嗎？他不就槍斃了嗎？然後你現在講隨機殺人好像沒有這麼嚴重，那為什麼當初槍斃他？這個未來難道不會變成「哎呀，我看看民意聲浪，必要的時候，我才走一下程序，不必要的時候，我就放在那個地方」，這樣子對這一群犯罪的人權才是真正的加害。真正能夠捍衛人權的方式，反而是把標準訂定的很明確而且依法執行，這才是正確的，我不知道我們在這邊講會不會變成狗吠火車，但是司法院、法務部未來的作為大家都在看，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","我也是覺得無冤無仇就殺人其實比有冤有仇殺人更可惡，結果這次的法院判決竟然認為兩個是相反，它認為說他是隨機是偶然的，所以這個惡性沒有預謀大，我認為我沒有辦法理解這個實務上面的見解是什麼。","接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：（12：52）主席謝謝，麻煩請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，剛剛牛煦庭講說不知道會不會是狗吠火車，我們已經擔憂了，這根本就狗吠火車。因為大法官做出這樣的一個解釋之後，真的會讓國人很擔心，臺灣是不是之後是非不分了。殺人不管是有冤有仇、無冤無仇，殺人就應該償命，因為你是殺人哪！重點是殺人這件事情，可是到最後現在變成是好像我們的標準已經浮動了。","我再請教，當然個案很難做一個釐清跟討論，可是本席不禁想到上個禮拜，新北市發生一件非常令人難過的事情，一個毒販開車，我們有一個英勇的員警所長去盤查，看他覺得奇怪，颱風天前夕怎麼會停在路邊，就去盤查，這個毒販心生恐懼或是有任何的狀況，他駕車逃逸，讓這個所長掛在那個門窗外面，到最後毒販為了要擺脫那個勇警所長，往護欄旁邊撞，造成所長因為這樣被撞擊過大而離開了。這一個毒蟲這一個毒販已經多次前科，而且當天是毒駕，那本席以及國人不禁要問，如果以現在大法官的釋憲來講的話，這一個毒蟲是不是到時候不會被判死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為大法官釋憲它是針對故意殺人的這部分，以及殺人的結合犯這部分來做一個解釋。但是委員關心的問題，其實說實在的，我看了這個新聞真的很難過，因為那個警察是非常優秀，建中又師大畢業……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常非常優秀的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：非常優秀的，而且非常負責盡職……"],["洪委員孟楷：他原本是在本席的選區三芝當所長，之後到竹圍當所長，甚至我聽很多的員警同仁講說，他已經有念應該是碩士還是博士，學歷也非常好，非常盡責，那之後調去才不到兩年的時間。部長，就直接請問，以現在的這樣狀況，如果到最後，對於這樣的毒蟲，我跟他也無冤無仇，我也不知道他是誰，但他犯下這樣的一個犯行就是法理難容啊，如果這個法理難容的情況，到時候變成是我們一審、二審、三審，還要幾個職業法官都一致同意，甚至你剛剛講了，如果他不是當初以殺人來做這個犯行的話，說不定他還可以逃過，變成只有有期徒刑，還不是無期徒刑，國人能接受嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我想檢察官也都是認為這個被告行為可惡，而且合乎羈押的一個要件，那有逃亡之虞，這部分檢察官也聲請法官羈押獲准，這個案件剛發生不久，我想這部分檢察官會妥適的偵辦，追究被告的犯行，從嚴追訴。那我想這部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：從嚴，最嚴可以到什麼程度？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分還要看案情的一個釐清，因為我沒辦法跟委員做報告，是不是說他一個毒駕，毒駕是毒駕過失致死，或肇事逃逸過失致死，這個刑責非常重，我想檢察官也會依照那個證據來認定犯罪事實，我想委員關心的這個問題，是不是故意的，這部分我想檢察是會一併的來了解清釐。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席沒有要指導辦案，但是上禮拜看到這樣的一個新聞，真的，我們不要每一次都是今天公祭明天忘記，尤其這個所長他還有兩個小孩，一個一歲、一個四歲，真的非常難過……"],["鄭部長銘謙：有兩個女兒，這個新聞我也是很注意。"],["洪委員孟楷：真的非常難過。拉回來，我們這次講，因為我們現在也有推動國民法官法，在國民法官法裡面，其實它有兩個條件是可以讓國民法官來共同參與的，一個是最輕十年以上的有期徒刑，一個是故意犯罪而發生死亡結果者，對不對？所以可以讓國民法官來共同參與嘛，但是現在大法官如果釋憲完之後，是不是即便國民法官認為他是要判死刑，但是只要有職業法官不認為、不同意的話，他一樣不會被判到死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個理解是這樣，這個是不是可以請司法院來回答……"],["洪委員孟楷：司法院代秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這一次的那個憲判就是國民法官的法庭是三位職業法官跟六位的國民法官……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：那依照這個憲判的話，這三位的職業法官那都必須為死刑的一致決，然後六位國民法官裡面只要有三位的話，那這樣就達到國民法官的三分之二死刑，死刑的這個門檻。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是本席的問題啊，本席的問題是如果說今天就我剛剛這樣子討論，國民法官六位都認為他是應該要判處死刑，但只要有一位職業法官不同意，或職業法官沒有認為說要判死刑，他是不是就可以逃過？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：那這樣我們推動國民法官的意義何在？我們當初推動國民法官的意義，不就是認為少數的法官讓大家覺得是恐龍法官，也因此抹煞了大部分法官的努力，而造成我們認為就應該要用正常我們社會大眾共識的一個標準。你們廣告做得很好啊！找峮峮、找其他那些來拍廣告，很好啊！本席也有看到啊，那你不就是要講賣菜的大姐也可以來參與，專家學者也可以來參與，一般的市井小民也可以來參與，我們就是用我們一般人的常識來去判案，所以六名國民法官比不上一個職業法官，要不要修法？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這個國民法官當然要配合這個憲判去修，但是本來的國民法官法裡面就是規定說，今天假設做有罪判決的話，職業法官本來就最少要有一位，只是說這一次憲判要求死刑的，只針對死刑，不是死刑的部分也沒有這個問題，死刑案件才這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以我們現在討論就是死刑部分，我們召委要討論的就是死刑的部分，當然國人嘩然也是死刑的部分啊，就認為是說你明明……雖然大法官講很好聽叫做合憲，但叫做有條件合憲，結果實質上就是往廢死的方向走，所以國人才會嘩然嘛，才會認為是非不分嘛，我現在延續我剛剛一開始的質詢到現在的問題，都還是強調既然我們當初認為有漏洞，我們把它補起來，沒想到大法官釋憲又再出了一個漏洞，那我們要不要補這個漏洞？再者，你的國民法官法之前就已經講了，什麼樣是國民法官可以參與判刑，一個就是犯最輕本刑為十年以上有期徒刑者，另外一個是故意犯罪因而發生死亡結果者。換言之，你們也認為國民法官要進來就是比較重的犯行，要嘛就十年以上的，要嘛就是死亡的，所以既然都已經有這樣子的一個前提條件了，代表國民法官審理的案件很有可能是有死刑的裁量空間的，可是大法官給一個巧門，只要職業法官三個有一個不同意，不好意思！你們六個國民法官講，不聽、不算。這樣嚴不嚴重？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官是一再強調判死刑，死刑的宣判是無可挽回的，所以它要求最嚴謹，今天講這……"],["洪委員孟楷：我當然知道不能挽回啊！人死了也不能挽回啊！所長離開也不能挽回啊！秘書長，代秘書長，記得一個禮拜前我在總質詢的時候質詢行政院院長，那時候部長也講要用兩年的時間趕快把漏洞補齊要修法。如果這樣，我覺得這是一個很大的漏洞，本席也會提出相關修法，我希望司法院也要有態度，不是大法官說什麼就算什麼，法律制度是我們希望往一個更好的臺灣邁進，如同召委常講對好人越好壞人越壞，而不是好像壞人我們想方設法幫他找巧門、找漏洞，然後對於好人……這麼好的一個人！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。","今天所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員林思銘所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}}