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\"start\": 1339.374, \"end\": 1339.394, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 1339.394, \"end\": 1339.414, \"score\": 0.001}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,878 --> 00:00:18,265\n我其實很想問這個最簡單的問題就是說為什麼台灣的垃圾處理政策最後到現在會導致垃圾堆積如山\n\n2\n00:00:37,274 --> 00:00:57,596\n你覺得最簡單的原因,如果要說大概是什麼原因?報告委員,因為我也看了最近的一些數字,我就覺得從源頭的這個資訊的掌握的處理,我們可能過去沒有很精確。源頭的資訊,現在不用啊,因為就堆積如山一座一座,現在就是說\n\n3\n00:00:59,278 --> 00:01:03,302\n呃裸露堆置的垃圾量已經是72萬噸了比如說源頭的數據你不是講源頭減量喔你是講數據可能不精準可是很明顯的就49處的掩埋場堆成一座座的垃圾山新竹特別嚴重全台最大的垃圾堆積區啊\n\n4\n00:01:18,536 --> 00:01:33,940\n新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了16公尺多了5、6層樓總量一個新竹就超過20萬噸全台已經達到72萬公噸這個堆置在那裡的量這是事實這個不是統計的問題\n\n5\n00:01:36,158 --> 00:02:02,875\n但是這個是從其實第一個當然這個是這個粉化爐你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡第一個是粉化爐這個整改的問題第二個是整改的問題嗎還有第二個是我們對於整個一般廢棄物事業廢棄物整個這個流向的管制管理這個數據的掌握我必須承認其實我觀察的時候其實我們還是有很大進步的空間我必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭才有辦法\n\n6\n00:02:03,015 --> 00:02:03,475\n你知道嗎?我知道\n\n7\n00:02:33,062 --> 00:02:33,082\n為什麼?\n\n8\n00:03:00,561 --> 00:03:20,193\n因為當時其實每一個焚化爐他在這個興建的時候都有簽訂跟地方政府簽訂一些合約包含了就是說他可以收納多少收納多少的失業廢棄物所以啊真正的原因就是大量的失業廢棄物占用了家戶這個要焚化的焚化爐的處理量能排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間\n\n9\n00:03:21,974 --> 00:03:38,563\n所以以新竹市為例新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒失業廢棄物的比例高達45%嚴重影響了民生垃圾的處理能力然後你再去看不是只有新竹市政府包括北投的台北市政府的北投木柵內湖南區廠高雄的岡山廠\n\n10\n00:03:44,366 --> 00:03:47,170\n都超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進場進到這個公共的這個焚化爐去欸所以變成本色沒人要修一般垃圾沒人要修都修事業廢棄物這樣對不對這樣對不對\n\n11\n00:04:01,368 --> 00:04:28,343\n報告委員其實第一個是你說的例如說北部的他的統計例如說我們家戶家戶的這個有人幫我們收垃圾他可能就當成是商業廢棄物事業廢棄物在做計算所以這個其實各個縣市都存在這個數據這個數據上的偏差我們就暫時不討論可是我們就是看到現在你就是這麼多這麼多然後呢新竹我們就講現實一點這還包括就是你說簽約嘛要燒多少的事業廢棄物嘛\n\n12\n00:04:29,904 --> 00:04:47,450\n可是在簽約的過程裡面為什麼新竹市政府處理事業廢棄物一頓收3000元比收新竹我們都是新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬頓全台最大的垃圾山因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去收一頓才1000元人家事業廢棄物進場是3000元\n\n13\n00:04:53,152 --> 00:05:13,481\n所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收這個事業廢棄物去燒而且真正的問題也不是在這裡我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠民間焚化廠他可以處理的餘裕很多欸但是民間焚化廠一頓要收多少錢五千以上講錯了啦民間民間要收多少錢八千八千到一萬\n\n14\n00:05:22,515 --> 00:05:37,708\n發言到1萬還到1萬8啦是公共焚化爐的6倍所以有事業廢棄物的焚化爐可以收而且有餘裕有量能而且民間的焚化爐事業廢棄物的焚化爐不用給你燒到滿它的那個處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢\n\n15\n00:05:45,149 --> 00:05:54,975\n為什麼?因為收費太貴了啊。所以呢,交給我們的公共焚化爐三千塊,多少?萬倍!不是你說的五千、八千、一萬,是萬倍!所以你對這個數據都沒有掌握。所以2019年,經焚化爐處理的一般事業費、器物超過一半。\n\n16\n00:06:07,241 --> 00:06:29,473\n將近60萬噸去了大型焚化廠就是我們的公共焚化廠所以民間還有多少量能限制你知道嗎?署長你知道嗎?保定一點不知道民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理?署長不知道保定不知道你們兩隻手都不知道你們說你們要管事業費事務說你們要管好焚化爐說你們要做什麼改過什麼問題都騙人的\n\n17\n00:06:35,416 --> 00:06:43,282\n報告委員那個失業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部他們的工作你們不用追蹤喔那跟你們都無關喔當然要阿數據當然要把握阿要掌握阿民間繁華廠還有漁獄嫌質量可以還高達80多萬噸但是一棟賣宿賣宿一萬八千塊關鍵是在這\n\n18\n00:07:01,912 --> 00:07:21,419\n你那個62萬噸叫公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物因為三千塊而已啊真正要燒事業廢棄物的一棟修門櫃而且還有量能可以處理遠遠大過於你進到公共焚化爐的量啊這要怎麼處理?他還沒燒到半他就可以賺大錢啊民間的\n\n19\n00:07:30,275 --> 00:07:53,459\n報告委員這個民間的這個我們數字上沒有掌握我們了解之後再講我是跟你講說這種價格這麼嚴重的失衡所以你市場取向一定是成本降低啊大家也要去叫公共分化去修如果要修家戶垃圾新竹市就不需要修新竹縣耶然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來這問題在這裡啊\n\n20\n00:07:56,857 --> 00:08:09,568\n我再說第二個問題,主要問題,區域調度的機制失效,我們有調度辦法,但沒有法則和執行力,所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你就知道現在市政府還有理由可以修,但是他覺得要修的比較好,事業費稅務。\n\n21\n00:08:15,954 --> 00:08:23,538\n所以新竹市的焚化爐他把新竹縣250萬噸都拒絕了所以只收了150噸啦250噸變成只收150噸所以100噸的垃圾無處去變成堆積成山第三個你們掩埋場不當使用原本要當成戰制的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接受垃圾以台中大理掩埋場為例\n\n22\n00:08:42,807 --> 00:09:08,116\n他本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣大理是本來是要埋底渣的而配合稅休的時候、焚化爐稅休的時候暫時加入垃圾台中有三座大型焚化廠但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了失業廢棄物所以現在有燒不完的垃圾遠遠不久的進入掩埋場然後堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾\n\n23\n00:09:11,817 --> 00:09:12,197\n林淑芬林淑芬林淑芬\n\n24\n00:09:31,042 --> 00:09:44,466\n在80年代台灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案以掩埋為主要方式但是到了1991年我們就以改焚化為主掩埋為輔從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐的灰飛的最終處理場址\n\n25\n00:09:49,927 --> 00:10:04,934\n那灰飛每年固定用掩埋15萬噸左右所以這空間本來就都很省的就很省著用就沒什麼搞現在現在你們走回頭路整個台灣的垃圾處理政策倒退囉然後呢進來的垃圾變成進入掩埋場然後你的終極策略你的精進策略是什麼部長你的精進策略是什麼掩埋打包\n\n26\n00:10:19,864 --> 00:10:24,948\n在這種狀況裏面全台灣的一般廢掩埋量這5年來一般廢棄物的掩埋量的成長率100%\n\n27\n00:10:45,363 --> 00:10:52,209\n這五年我知道過去五年不是你啦但是我跟你講方向就這樣子你越大越多可以掩埋的掩埋一般費幾乎從108年的10308公噸增加到112年的199574公噸增加的幅度將近100%是99%所以顯著的增加的掩埋場包括大理台中大理的衛生掩埋場\n\n28\n00:11:15,206 --> 00:11:19,050\n他從108年的2747公噸增加到112年是12萬2700變成12萬3562公噸臺中大理衛生掩埋廠掩埋的量這麼大而你衛福部提出的精進策略也是掩埋復土蓋埋蓋埋就好\n\n29\n00:11:37,208 --> 00:12:01,073\n然後呢臺南的隆起隆起掩埋廠從108年才本來掩埋量是623公噸到112年是9109公噸啦這是成長幾倍啊所以你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋復土所以我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片\n\n30\n00:12:02,401 --> 00:12:02,581\n林淑芬\n\n31\n00:12:23,148 --> 00:12:33,835\n變成灰灰的附土然後用底紮再蓋上去灰灰垃圾底紮對你說這樣環境風險環評是允許這樣子的嗎以後還要挖起來篩分那些有毒的陽城對環境對工作人員的傷害對整個周遭的傷害要怎麼辦\n\n32\n00:12:49,258 --> 00:12:52,499\n這都種金屬耶灰飛捏底渣捏你現在贊助垃圾這位而且底渣用底渣當成副土這個叫副土底渣當副土卻吸人啊所以第一個部長目前這樣堆積的危機啊你的主要的方式就精進的策略就掩埋副土\n\n33\n00:13:11,508 --> 00:13:15,749\n但是從這個數據來看每年進場的一般費逐年增加這樣的覆土這樣的掩埋這樣的蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎第一個第二個針對事業廢棄物佔用公共焚化爐而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐卻有80萬噸的餘裕卻沒有燒這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼\n\n34\n00:13:38,735 --> 00:13:40,378\n現在如果改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題,要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作?\n\n35\n00:13:49,246 --> 00:14:04,509\n你回答包委員第一個問題是這個只是暫時的我們必須說未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做那就不可能24做整備好了他還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物而事業廢棄物處理廠他還是繼續這麼貴然後呢也是可以有餘裕可以處理但是就沒有人可以去燒三千到萬倍這就是問題啦要怎麼改觀\n\n36\n00:14:18,121 --> 00:14:24,525\n為什麼一般廢棄物逐年增加?量增加了這麼快啦為什麼生活形態的改變生活形態的改變外國難道沒有嗎?外國也是一樣外國也是一樣?好那很好我問你因為這三題你沒有回答我繼續問你你知道台灣從1997年推動資源回收那個時候一推動資源回收人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20%\n\n37\n00:14:47,738 --> 00:15:04,292\n現在近年來垃圾量開始增加特別是經濟越發達像新竹縣市新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是台灣全島第一名但是呢我們要講民生垃圾量比日本韓國新加坡還多你說生活形態的改變我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的\n\n38\n00:15:10,818 --> 00:15:33,157\n2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤日本新加坡都低於1公斤2018到2022年台灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81增加的是我們這四個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度你說的生活形態改變紫色的是什麼你講給我聽我剛才有聽到你在尋答\n\n39\n00:15:37,867 --> 00:15:49,242\n你講的我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡我們的生活形態上改變哪裡是我們變他們沒有變的所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的\n\n40\n00:15:51,259 --> 00:16:10,125\n網購有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無UberEats有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無人家很發達你認為垃圾成長是這種生活形態改變人家也是可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降我們還在逐年增加\n\n41\n00:16:14,966 --> 00:16:29,884\n你剛剛講網購啊疫情啊外送啊人家沒有疫情嗎亞洲日本韓國新加坡難道沒有網購嗎沒有外送嗎通通都有所以這不要拿這個來當藉口是什麼原因更不要講說啊\n\n42\n00:16:34,158 --> 00:16:45,564\n一般進焚化爐的事業廢棄物你們講統計師真是有一部分事業廢棄物是來自於餐廳小吃店夜市那餐廳小吃店夜市你要解決這個問題是什麼解決韓國怎麼解決\n\n43\n00:16:52,540 --> 00:17:15,357\n你來看一下我們的資源回收政策執行不髒本來我們台灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效結果越來越不髒反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高連餅乾袋地毯台灣沒有在回收的吃餅乾大家吃那麼多糖果餅乾台灣沒有回收人家都能夠回收為什麼部長\n\n44\n00:17:18,513 --> 00:17:29,384\n而且維修前還要連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨資料標籤紙箱也要拆開整瓶去除標籤跟膠袋然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走為什麼為什麼他做得到\n\n45\n00:17:34,859 --> 00:17:41,627\n這個就行政能力也有關係啊。你說的那些製造垃圾的人他們也都有啊。你看這個袋子。你看我們的驗室裡面的事業費器這個袋子。這個會分類嗎?這沒有分類。台灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路。\n\n46\n00:17:55,881 --> 00:18:10,256\n我們非常粗略民眾還有一種不用分這麼細到時候親運都會混在一起為什麼什麼叫親運會混在一起台灣的民眾很認真的在分類然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的左手邊資源回收車右手邊垃圾車\n\n47\n00:18:15,171 --> 00:18:21,581\n公所把他們資源回收來的資源回收戶倒下去噴射車裡面啦,每天在我們家門口啦,在我們家門口的啦。\n\n48\n00:18:27,571 --> 00:18:30,772\n這像話嗎地方政府代表這樣做像話嗎垃圾資源回收所有每個人民都好好的回收了那有的時候分類沒做好所以公所地方政府面對這種問題是直接把它倒下去噴射車直接燒啦\n\n49\n00:18:51,363 --> 00:19:06,208\n我們都問他每天下午5點說紅瓶在做這件事笑死人所以你知道這個事情嗎部長直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車而且不是我們都問他台北市台北市也是這樣啦我的助理又常常去卸財了啦你知道為什麼沒有作為\n\n50\n00:19:19,741 --> 00:19:30,520\n部長,台灣這樣子人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名而且成長的速度最快你覺得原因是什麼啦?\n\n51\n00:19:31,991 --> 00:19:55,610\n你剛才有沒有回答啊那如果你沒有不知道原因你有沒有具體的計畫知道怎麼源頭減廢怎麼讓人均廢棄物的下降的目標要定在哪裡而且要對應的策略拿出來有效策略是什麼你不要跟我講說怎麼數據失真啊這不是事實這個都是事實第二個清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物\n\n52\n00:19:57,071 --> 00:19:58,032\n韓國對垃圾分類的嚴格的要求和處罰機制其實很有名的啦\n\n53\n00:20:17,947 --> 00:20:36,116\n那你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及處理分類項目指引現在他們彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真從電子發票巧拼到茶葉等50幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收怎麼搭配所以彰化你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎三成以上\n\n54\n00:20:38,912 --> 00:21:02,686\n兩三層除雨回收總量提高一倍資源回收物平均提升15%所以有沒有效政府有決心要做一定有效但是是你知道我們的除雨啊大家都在丟除雨啊到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面我們認真的除雨拿去除雨桶丟結果地方政府到最後丟到焚化爐裡面\n\n55\n00:21:11,444 --> 00:21:28,182\n中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗可以複製出去韓國回收率這麼好能夠回收台灣沒有回收的品項你有沒有考慮要增加回收的品項的範圍能不能向他國來學習最後地方清潔隊這樣的做法\n\n56\n00:21:29,643 --> 00:21:39,667\n嚴重的影響了民眾分類的意願和信心。我這麼認真就要分類,還要你把牌子在分色車,要做笑的。我這麼認真就要做廚餘,你搞不好你也是把牌子下去燒。所以你們就是上行下效嘛。環境部對這個有什麼做法,你還說你知道。那你具體的政策來看,你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢?\n\n57\n00:21:58,152 --> 00:22:03,438\n您都在這裡點點就好了,不用回答。不用啦,找時間啦,他也不知道要怎麼做啦。有啦,有啦,張化的我們都全省一起來關注。不知道耶,都不知道耶。所理也不知道耶。4月7日兩人喔,遠遠大過於,你把他拖下去。\n\n58\n00:22:19,034 --> 00:22:19,414\n謝謝委員謝謝林淑芬\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7878\t18265\t我其實很想問這個最簡單的問題就是說為什麼台灣的垃圾處理政策最後到現在會導致垃圾堆積如山\n37274\t57596\t你覺得最簡單的原因,如果要說大概是什麼原因?報告委員,因為我也看了最近的一些數字,我就覺得從源頭的這個資訊的掌握的處理,我們可能過去沒有很精確。源頭的資訊,現在不用啊,因為就堆積如山一座一座,現在就是說\n59278\t63302\t呃裸露堆置的垃圾量已經是72萬噸了比如說源頭的數據你不是講源頭減量喔你是講數據可能不精準可是很明顯的就49處的掩埋場堆成一座座的垃圾山新竹特別嚴重全台最大的垃圾堆積區啊\n78536\t93940\t新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了16公尺多了5、6層樓總量一個新竹就超過20萬噸全台已經達到72萬公噸這個堆置在那裡的量這是事實這個不是統計的問題\n96158\t122875\t但是這個是從其實第一個當然這個是這個粉化爐你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡第一個是粉化爐這個整改的問題第二個是整改的問題嗎還有第二個是我們對於整個一般廢棄物事業廢棄物整個這個流向的管制管理這個數據的掌握我必須承認其實我觀察的時候其實我們還是有很大進步的空間我必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭才有辦法\n123015\t123475\t你知道嗎?我知道\n153062\t153082\t為什麼?\n180561\t200193\t因為當時其實每一個焚化爐他在這個興建的時候都有簽訂跟地方政府簽訂一些合約包含了就是說他可以收納多少收納多少的失業廢棄物所以啊真正的原因就是大量的失業廢棄物占用了家戶這個要焚化的焚化爐的處理量能排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間\n201974\t218563\t所以以新竹市為例新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒失業廢棄物的比例高達45%嚴重影響了民生垃圾的處理能力然後你再去看不是只有新竹市政府包括北投的台北市政府的北投木柵內湖南區廠高雄的岡山廠\n224366\t227170\t都超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進場 進到這個公共的這個焚化爐去欸所以 變成本色沒人要修 一般垃圾沒人要修都修事業廢棄物 這樣對不對 這樣對不對\n241368\t268343\t報告委員其實第一個是你說的例如說北部的他的統計例如說我們家戶家戶的這個有人幫我們收垃圾他可能就當成是商業廢棄物事業廢棄物在做計算所以這個其實各個縣市都存在這個數據這個數據上的偏差我們就暫時不討論可是我們就是看到現在你就是這麼多這麼多然後呢新竹我們就講現實一點這還包括就是你說簽約嘛要燒多少的事業廢棄物嘛\n269904\t287450\t可是在簽約的過程裡面為什麼新竹市政府處理事業廢棄物一頓收3000元比收新竹我們都是新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬頓全台最大的垃圾山因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去收一頓才1000元人家事業廢棄物進場是3000元\n293152\t313481\t所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收這個事業廢棄物去燒而且真正的問題也不是在這裡我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠民間焚化廠他可以處理的餘裕很多欸但是民間焚化廠一頓要收多少錢五千以上講錯了啦民間民間要收多少錢八千八千到一萬\n322515\t337708\t發言到1萬還到1萬8啦是公共焚化爐的6倍所以有事業廢棄物的焚化爐可以收而且有餘裕有量能而且民間的焚化爐事業廢棄物的焚化爐不用給你燒到滿它的那個處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢\n345149\t354975\t為什麼?因為收費太貴了啊。所以呢,交給我們的公共焚化爐三千塊,多少?萬倍!不是你說的五千、八千、一萬,是萬倍!所以你對這個數據都沒有掌握。所以2019年,經焚化爐處理的一般事業費、器物超過一半。\n367241\t389473\t將近60萬噸去了大型焚化廠就是我們的公共焚化廠所以民間還有多少量能限制你知道嗎?署長你知道嗎?保定一點不知道民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理?署長不知道保定不知道你們兩隻手都不知道你們說你們要管事業費事務說你們要管好焚化爐說你們要做什麼改過什麼問題都騙人的\n395416\t403282\t報告委員那個失業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部他們的工作你們不用追蹤喔那跟你們都無關喔當然要阿數據當然要把握阿要掌握阿民間繁華廠還有漁獄嫌質量可以還高達80多萬噸但是一棟賣宿賣宿一萬八千塊關鍵是在這\n421912\t441419\t你那個62萬噸叫公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物因為三千塊而已啊真正要燒事業廢棄物的一棟修門櫃而且還有量能可以處理遠遠大過於你進到公共焚化爐的量啊這要怎麼處理?他還沒燒到半他就可以賺大錢啊 民間的\n450275\t473459\t報告委員 這個民間的這個我們數字上沒有掌握我們了解之後再講我是跟你講說這種價格這麼嚴重的失衡所以你市場取向一定是成本降低啊大家也要去叫公共分化去修如果要修家戶垃圾新竹市就不需要修新竹縣耶然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來這問題在這裡啊\n476857\t489568\t我再說第二個問題,主要問題,區域調度的機制失效,我們有調度辦法,但沒有法則和執行力,所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你就知道現在市政府還有理由可以修,但是他覺得要修的比較好,事業費稅務。\n495954\t503538\t所以新竹市的焚化爐他把新竹縣250萬噸都拒絕了所以只收了150噸啦250噸變成只收150噸所以100噸的垃圾無處去變成堆積成山第三個你們掩埋場不當使用原本要當成戰制的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接受垃圾以台中大理掩埋場為例\n522807\t548116\t他本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣大理是本來是要埋底渣的而配合稅休的時候、焚化爐稅休的時候暫時加入垃圾台中有三座大型焚化廠但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了失業廢棄物所以現在有燒不完的垃圾遠遠不久的進入掩埋場然後堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾\n551817\t552197\t林淑芬 林淑芬 林淑芬\n571042\t584466\t在80年代台灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案以掩埋為主要方式但是到了1991年我們就以改焚化為主掩埋為輔從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐的灰飛的最終處理場址\n589927\t604934\t那灰飛每年固定用掩埋15萬噸左右所以這空間本來就都很省的就很省著用就沒什麼搞現在現在你們走回頭路整個台灣的垃圾處理政策倒退囉然後呢進來的垃圾變成進入掩埋場然後你的終極策略你的精進策略是什麼部長你的精進策略是什麼掩埋打包\n619864\t624948\t在這種狀況裏面全台灣的一般廢掩埋量這5年來一般廢棄物的掩埋量的成長率100%\n645363\t652209\t這五年 我知道過去五年不是你啦但是我跟你講 方向就這樣子你越大越多可以掩埋的掩埋一般費幾乎從108年的10308公噸增加到112年的199574公噸增加的幅度將近100%是99%所以顯著的增加的掩埋場包括大理 台中大理的衛生掩埋場\n675206\t679050\t他從108年的2747公噸增加到112年是12萬2700變成12萬3562公噸臺中大理衛生掩埋廠 掩埋的量這麼大而你衛福部提出的精進策略也是掩埋復土蓋埋 蓋埋就好\n697208\t721073\t然後呢臺南的隆起隆起掩埋廠從108年才 本來掩埋量是623公噸到112年是9109公噸啦這是成長幾倍啊所以你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋復土所以我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片\n722401\t722581\t林淑芬\n743148\t753835\t變成灰灰的附土然後用底紮再蓋上去灰灰垃圾底紮對你說這樣環境風險環評是允許這樣子的嗎以後還要挖起來篩分那些有毒的陽城對環境對工作人員的傷害對整個周遭的傷害要怎麼辦\n769258\t772499\t這都種金屬耶 灰飛捏 底渣捏 你現在贊助垃圾這位而且底渣用底渣當成副土 這個叫副土底渣當副土 卻吸人啊 所以第一個部長目前這樣堆積的危機啊 你的主要的方式就精進的策略就掩埋副土\n791508\t795749\t但是從這個數據來看每年進場的一般費逐年增加這樣的覆土這樣的掩埋這樣的蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎第一個第二個針對事業廢棄物佔用公共焚化爐而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐卻有80萬噸的餘裕卻沒有燒這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼\n818735\t820378\t現在如果改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題,要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作?\n829246\t844509\t你回答包委員第一個問題是這個只是暫時的我們必須說未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做那就不可能24做整備好了他還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物而事業廢棄物處理廠他還是繼續這麼貴然後呢也是可以有餘裕可以處理但是就沒有人可以去燒三千到萬倍這就是問題啦要怎麼改觀\n858121\t864525\t為什麼一般廢棄物逐年增加?量增加了這麼快啦為什麼生活形態的改變生活形態的改變外國難道沒有嗎?外國也是一樣外國也是一樣?好那很好我問你因為這三題你沒有回答我繼續問你你知道台灣從1997年推動資源回收那個時候一推動資源回收人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20%\n887738\t904292\t現在近年來垃圾量開始增加特別是經濟越發達像新竹縣市新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是台灣全島第一名但是呢我們要講民生垃圾量比日本韓國新加坡還多你說生活形態的改變我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的\n910818\t933157\t2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤日本新加坡都低於1公斤2018到2022年台灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81增加的是我們這四個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度你說的生活形態改變紫色的是什麼你講給我聽我剛才有聽到你在尋答\n937867\t949242\t你講的我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡我們的生活形態上改變哪裡是我們變他們沒有變的所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的\n951259\t970125\t網購有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無Uber Eats有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無人家很發達你認為垃圾成長是這種生活形態改變人家也是可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降我們還在逐年增加\n974966\t989884\t你剛剛講網購啊疫情啊外送啊人家沒有疫情嗎亞洲日本韓國新加坡難道沒有網購嗎沒有外送嗎通通都有所以這不要拿這個來當藉口是什麼原因更不要講說啊\n994158\t1005564\t一般進焚化爐的事業廢棄物你們講統計師真是有一部分事業廢棄物是來自於餐廳小吃店夜市那餐廳小吃店夜市你要解決這個問題是什麼解決韓國怎麼解決\n1012540\t1035357\t你來看一下我們的資源回收政策執行不髒本來我們台灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效結果越來越不髒反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高連餅乾袋地毯台灣沒有在回收的吃餅乾大家吃那麼多糖果餅乾台灣沒有回收人家都能夠回收為什麼部長\n1038513\t1049384\t而且維修前還要連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨資料標籤紙箱也要拆開整瓶去除標籤跟膠袋然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走為什麼為什麼他做得到\n1054859\t1061627\t這個就行政能力也有關係啊。你說的那些製造垃圾的人他們也都有啊。你看這個袋子。你看我們的驗室裡面的事業費器這個袋子。這個會分類嗎?這沒有分類。台灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路。\n1075881\t1090256\t我們非常粗略民眾還有一種不用分這麼細到時候親運都會混在一起為什麼什麼叫親運會混在一起台灣的民眾很認真的在分類然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的左手邊資源回收車右手邊垃圾車\n1095171\t1101581\t公所把他們資源回收來的資源回收戶倒下去噴射車裡面啦,每天在我們家門口啦,在我們家門口的啦。\n1107571\t1110772\t這像話嗎地方政府代表這樣做像話嗎垃圾資源回收所有每個人民都好好的回收了那有的時候分類沒做好所以公所地方政府面對這種問題是直接把它倒下去噴射車直接燒啦\n1131363\t1146208\t我們都問他每天下午5點說紅瓶在做這件事 笑死人所以你知道這個事情嗎部長 直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車 而且不是我們都問他 台北市 台北市也是這樣啦 我的助理又常常去卸財了啦 你知道為什麼沒有作為\n1159741\t1170520\t部長,台灣這樣子人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名而且成長的速度最快你覺得原因是什麼啦?\n1171991\t1195610\t你剛才有沒有回答啊那如果你沒有不知道原因你有沒有具體的計畫知道怎麼源頭減廢怎麼讓人均廢棄物的下降的目標要定在哪裡而且要對應的策略拿出來有效策略是什麼你不要跟我講說怎麼數據失真啊這不是事實這個都是事實第二個清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物\n1197071\t1198032\t韓國對垃圾分類的嚴格的要求和處罰機制其實很有名的啦\n1217947\t1236116\t那你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及處理分類項目指引現在他們彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真從電子發票巧拼到茶葉等50幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收怎麼搭配所以彰化你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎三成以上\n1238912\t1262686\t兩三層除雨回收總量提高一倍資源回收物平均提升15%所以有沒有效政府有決心要做一定有效但是是你知道我們的除雨啊大家都在丟除雨啊到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面我們認真的除雨拿去除雨桶丟結果地方政府到最後丟到焚化爐裡面\n1271444\t1288182\t中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗可以複製出去韓國回收率這麼好能夠回收台灣沒有回收的品項你有沒有考慮要增加回收的品項的範圍能不能向他國來學習最後地方清潔隊這樣的做法\n1289643\t1299667\t嚴重的影響了民眾分類的意願和信心。我這麼認真就要分類,還要你把牌子在分色車,要做笑的。我這麼認真就要做廚餘,你搞不好你也是把牌子下去燒。所以你們就是上行下效嘛。環境部對這個有什麼做法,你還說你知道。那你具體的政策來看,你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢?\n1318152\t1323438\t您都在這裡點點就好了,不用回答。不用啦,找時間啦,他也不知道要怎麼做啦。有啦,有啦,張化的我們都全省一起來關注。不知道耶,都不知道耶。所理也不知道耶。4月7日兩人喔,遠遠大過於,你把他拖下去。\n1339034\t1339414\t謝謝委員謝謝林淑芬\n","txt":"我其實很想問這個最簡單的問題就是說為什麼台灣的垃圾處理政策最後到現在會導致垃圾堆積如山\n你覺得最簡單的原因,如果要說大概是什麼原因?報告委員,因為我也看了最近的一些數字,我就覺得從源頭的這個資訊的掌握的處理,我們可能過去沒有很精確。源頭的資訊,現在不用啊,因為就堆積如山一座一座,現在就是說\n呃裸露堆置的垃圾量已經是72萬噸了比如說源頭的數據你不是講源頭減量喔你是講數據可能不精準可是很明顯的就49處的掩埋場堆成一座座的垃圾山新竹特別嚴重全台最大的垃圾堆積區啊\n新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了16公尺多了5、6層樓總量一個新竹就超過20萬噸全台已經達到72萬公噸這個堆置在那裡的量這是事實這個不是統計的問題\n但是這個是從其實第一個當然這個是這個粉化爐你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡第一個是粉化爐這個整改的問題第二個是整改的問題嗎還有第二個是我們對於整個一般廢棄物事業廢棄物整個這個流向的管制管理這個數據的掌握我必須承認其實我觀察的時候其實我們還是有很大進步的空間我必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭才有辦法\n你知道嗎?我知道\n為什麼?\n因為當時其實每一個焚化爐他在這個興建的時候都有簽訂跟地方政府簽訂一些合約包含了就是說他可以收納多少收納多少的失業廢棄物所以啊真正的原因就是大量的失業廢棄物占用了家戶這個要焚化的焚化爐的處理量能排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間\n所以以新竹市為例新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒失業廢棄物的比例高達45%嚴重影響了民生垃圾的處理能力然後你再去看不是只有新竹市政府包括北投的台北市政府的北投木柵內湖南區廠高雄的岡山廠\n都超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進場 進到這個公共的這個焚化爐去欸所以 變成本色沒人要修 一般垃圾沒人要修都修事業廢棄物 這樣對不對 這樣對不對\n報告委員其實第一個是你說的例如說北部的他的統計例如說我們家戶家戶的這個有人幫我們收垃圾他可能就當成是商業廢棄物事業廢棄物在做計算所以這個其實各個縣市都存在這個數據這個數據上的偏差我們就暫時不討論可是我們就是看到現在你就是這麼多這麼多然後呢新竹我們就講現實一點這還包括就是你說簽約嘛要燒多少的事業廢棄物嘛\n可是在簽約的過程裡面為什麼新竹市政府處理事業廢棄物一頓收3000元比收新竹我們都是新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬頓全台最大的垃圾山因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去收一頓才1000元人家事業廢棄物進場是3000元\n所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收這個事業廢棄物去燒而且真正的問題也不是在這裡我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠民間焚化廠他可以處理的餘裕很多欸但是民間焚化廠一頓要收多少錢五千以上講錯了啦民間民間要收多少錢八千八千到一萬\n發言到1萬還到1萬8啦是公共焚化爐的6倍所以有事業廢棄物的焚化爐可以收而且有餘裕有量能而且民間的焚化爐事業廢棄物的焚化爐不用給你燒到滿它的那個處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢\n為什麼?因為收費太貴了啊。所以呢,交給我們的公共焚化爐三千塊,多少?萬倍!不是你說的五千、八千、一萬,是萬倍!所以你對這個數據都沒有掌握。所以2019年,經焚化爐處理的一般事業費、器物超過一半。\n將近60萬噸去了大型焚化廠就是我們的公共焚化廠所以民間還有多少量能限制你知道嗎?署長你知道嗎?保定一點不知道民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理?署長不知道保定不知道你們兩隻手都不知道你們說你們要管事業費事務說你們要管好焚化爐說你們要做什麼改過什麼問題都騙人的\n報告委員那個失業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部他們的工作你們不用追蹤喔那跟你們都無關喔當然要阿數據當然要把握阿要掌握阿民間繁華廠還有漁獄嫌質量可以還高達80多萬噸但是一棟賣宿賣宿一萬八千塊關鍵是在這\n你那個62萬噸叫公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物因為三千塊而已啊真正要燒事業廢棄物的一棟修門櫃而且還有量能可以處理遠遠大過於你進到公共焚化爐的量啊這要怎麼處理?他還沒燒到半他就可以賺大錢啊 民間的\n報告委員 這個民間的這個我們數字上沒有掌握我們了解之後再講我是跟你講說這種價格這麼嚴重的失衡所以你市場取向一定是成本降低啊大家也要去叫公共分化去修如果要修家戶垃圾新竹市就不需要修新竹縣耶然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來這問題在這裡啊\n我再說第二個問題,主要問題,區域調度的機制失效,我們有調度辦法,但沒有法則和執行力,所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你就知道現在市政府還有理由可以修,但是他覺得要修的比較好,事業費稅務。\n所以新竹市的焚化爐他把新竹縣250萬噸都拒絕了所以只收了150噸啦250噸變成只收150噸所以100噸的垃圾無處去變成堆積成山第三個你們掩埋場不當使用原本要當成戰制的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接受垃圾以台中大理掩埋場為例\n他本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣大理是本來是要埋底渣的而配合稅休的時候、焚化爐稅休的時候暫時加入垃圾台中有三座大型焚化廠但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了失業廢棄物所以現在有燒不完的垃圾遠遠不久的進入掩埋場然後堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾\n林淑芬 林淑芬 林淑芬\n在80年代台灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案以掩埋為主要方式但是到了1991年我們就以改焚化為主掩埋為輔從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐的灰飛的最終處理場址\n那灰飛每年固定用掩埋15萬噸左右所以這空間本來就都很省的就很省著用就沒什麼搞現在現在你們走回頭路整個台灣的垃圾處理政策倒退囉然後呢進來的垃圾變成進入掩埋場然後你的終極策略你的精進策略是什麼部長你的精進策略是什麼掩埋打包\n在這種狀況裏面全台灣的一般廢掩埋量這5年來一般廢棄物的掩埋量的成長率100%\n這五年 我知道過去五年不是你啦但是我跟你講 方向就這樣子你越大越多可以掩埋的掩埋一般費幾乎從108年的10308公噸增加到112年的199574公噸增加的幅度將近100%是99%所以顯著的增加的掩埋場包括大理 台中大理的衛生掩埋場\n他從108年的2747公噸增加到112年是12萬2700變成12萬3562公噸臺中大理衛生掩埋廠 掩埋的量這麼大而你衛福部提出的精進策略也是掩埋復土蓋埋 蓋埋就好\n然後呢臺南的隆起隆起掩埋廠從108年才 本來掩埋量是623公噸到112年是9109公噸啦這是成長幾倍啊所以你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋復土所以我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片\n林淑芬\n變成灰灰的附土然後用底紮再蓋上去灰灰垃圾底紮對你說這樣環境風險環評是允許這樣子的嗎以後還要挖起來篩分那些有毒的陽城對環境對工作人員的傷害對整個周遭的傷害要怎麼辦\n這都種金屬耶 灰飛捏 底渣捏 你現在贊助垃圾這位而且底渣用底渣當成副土 這個叫副土底渣當副土 卻吸人啊 所以第一個部長目前這樣堆積的危機啊 你的主要的方式就精進的策略就掩埋副土\n但是從這個數據來看每年進場的一般費逐年增加這樣的覆土這樣的掩埋這樣的蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎第一個第二個針對事業廢棄物佔用公共焚化爐而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐卻有80萬噸的餘裕卻沒有燒這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼\n現在如果改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題,要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作?\n你回答包委員第一個問題是這個只是暫時的我們必須說未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做那就不可能24做整備好了他還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物而事業廢棄物處理廠他還是繼續這麼貴然後呢也是可以有餘裕可以處理但是就沒有人可以去燒三千到萬倍這就是問題啦要怎麼改觀\n為什麼一般廢棄物逐年增加?量增加了這麼快啦為什麼生活形態的改變生活形態的改變外國難道沒有嗎?外國也是一樣外國也是一樣?好那很好我問你因為這三題你沒有回答我繼續問你你知道台灣從1997年推動資源回收那個時候一推動資源回收人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20%\n現在近年來垃圾量開始增加特別是經濟越發達像新竹縣市新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是台灣全島第一名但是呢我們要講民生垃圾量比日本韓國新加坡還多你說生活形態的改變我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的\n2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤日本新加坡都低於1公斤2018到2022年台灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81增加的是我們這四個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度你說的生活形態改變紫色的是什麼你講給我聽我剛才有聽到你在尋答\n你講的我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡我們的生活形態上改變哪裡是我們變他們沒有變的所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的\n網購有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無Uber Eats有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無人家很發達你認為垃圾成長是這種生活形態改變人家也是可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降我們還在逐年增加\n你剛剛講網購啊疫情啊外送啊人家沒有疫情嗎亞洲日本韓國新加坡難道沒有網購嗎沒有外送嗎通通都有所以這不要拿這個來當藉口是什麼原因更不要講說啊\n一般進焚化爐的事業廢棄物你們講統計師真是有一部分事業廢棄物是來自於餐廳小吃店夜市那餐廳小吃店夜市你要解決這個問題是什麼解決韓國怎麼解決\n你來看一下我們的資源回收政策執行不髒本來我們台灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效結果越來越不髒反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高連餅乾袋地毯台灣沒有在回收的吃餅乾大家吃那麼多糖果餅乾台灣沒有回收人家都能夠回收為什麼部長\n而且維修前還要連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨資料標籤紙箱也要拆開整瓶去除標籤跟膠袋然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走為什麼為什麼他做得到\n這個就行政能力也有關係啊。你說的那些製造垃圾的人他們也都有啊。你看這個袋子。你看我們的驗室裡面的事業費器這個袋子。這個會分類嗎?這沒有分類。台灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路。\n我們非常粗略民眾還有一種不用分這麼細到時候親運都會混在一起為什麼什麼叫親運會混在一起台灣的民眾很認真的在分類然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的左手邊資源回收車右手邊垃圾車\n公所把他們資源回收來的資源回收戶倒下去噴射車裡面啦,每天在我們家門口啦,在我們家門口的啦。\n這像話嗎地方政府代表這樣做像話嗎垃圾資源回收所有每個人民都好好的回收了那有的時候分類沒做好所以公所地方政府面對這種問題是直接把它倒下去噴射車直接燒啦\n我們都問他每天下午5點說紅瓶在做這件事 笑死人所以你知道這個事情嗎部長 直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車 而且不是我們都問他 台北市 台北市也是這樣啦 我的助理又常常去卸財了啦 你知道為什麼沒有作為\n部長,台灣這樣子人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名而且成長的速度最快你覺得原因是什麼啦?\n你剛才有沒有回答啊那如果你沒有不知道原因你有沒有具體的計畫知道怎麼源頭減廢怎麼讓人均廢棄物的下降的目標要定在哪裡而且要對應的策略拿出來有效策略是什麼你不要跟我講說怎麼數據失真啊這不是事實這個都是事實第二個清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物\n韓國對垃圾分類的嚴格的要求和處罰機制其實很有名的啦\n那你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及處理分類項目指引現在他們彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真從電子發票巧拼到茶葉等50幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收怎麼搭配所以彰化你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎三成以上\n兩三層除雨回收總量提高一倍資源回收物平均提升15%所以有沒有效政府有決心要做一定有效但是是你知道我們的除雨啊大家都在丟除雨啊到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面我們認真的除雨拿去除雨桶丟結果地方政府到最後丟到焚化爐裡面\n中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗可以複製出去韓國回收率這麼好能夠回收台灣沒有回收的品項你有沒有考慮要增加回收的品項的範圍能不能向他國來學習最後地方清潔隊這樣的做法\n嚴重的影響了民眾分類的意願和信心。我這麼認真就要分類,還要你把牌子在分色車,要做笑的。我這麼認真就要做廚餘,你搞不好你也是把牌子下去燒。所以你們就是上行下效嘛。環境部對這個有什麼做法,你還說你知道。那你具體的政策來看,你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢?\n您都在這裡點點就好了,不用回答。不用啦,找時間啦,他也不知道要怎麼做啦。有啦,有啦,張化的我們都全省一起來關注。不知道耶,都不知道耶。所理也不知道耶。4月7日兩人喔,遠遠大過於,你把他拖下去。\n謝謝委員謝謝林淑芬\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.878 --> 00:18.265\n我其實很想問這個最簡單的問題就是說為什麼台灣的垃圾處理政策最後到現在會導致垃圾堆積如山\n\n00:37.274 --> 00:57.596\n你覺得最簡單的原因,如果要說大概是什麼原因?報告委員,因為我也看了最近的一些數字,我就覺得從源頭的這個資訊的掌握的處理,我們可能過去沒有很精確。源頭的資訊,現在不用啊,因為就堆積如山一座一座,現在就是說\n\n00:59.278 --> 01:03.302\n呃裸露堆置的垃圾量已經是72萬噸了比如說源頭的數據你不是講源頭減量喔你是講數據可能不精準可是很明顯的就49處的掩埋場堆成一座座的垃圾山新竹特別嚴重全台最大的垃圾堆積區啊\n\n01:18.536 --> 01:33.940\n新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了16公尺多了5、6層樓總量一個新竹就超過20萬噸全台已經達到72萬公噸這個堆置在那裡的量這是事實這個不是統計的問題\n\n01:36.158 --> 02:02.875\n但是這個是從其實第一個當然這個是這個粉化爐你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡第一個是粉化爐這個整改的問題第二個是整改的問題嗎還有第二個是我們對於整個一般廢棄物事業廢棄物整個這個流向的管制管理這個數據的掌握我必須承認其實我觀察的時候其實我們還是有很大進步的空間我必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭才有辦法\n\n02:03.015 --> 02:03.475\n你知道嗎?我知道\n\n02:33.062 --> 02:33.082\n為什麼?\n\n03:00.561 --> 03:20.193\n因為當時其實每一個焚化爐他在這個興建的時候都有簽訂跟地方政府簽訂一些合約包含了就是說他可以收納多少收納多少的失業廢棄物所以啊真正的原因就是大量的失業廢棄物占用了家戶這個要焚化的焚化爐的處理量能排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間\n\n03:21.974 --> 03:38.563\n所以以新竹市為例新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒失業廢棄物的比例高達45%嚴重影響了民生垃圾的處理能力然後你再去看不是只有新竹市政府包括北投的台北市政府的北投木柵內湖南區廠高雄的岡山廠\n\n03:44.366 --> 03:47.170\n都超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進場進到這個公共的這個焚化爐去欸所以變成本色沒人要修一般垃圾沒人要修都修事業廢棄物這樣對不對這樣對不對\n\n04:01.368 --> 04:28.343\n報告委員其實第一個是你說的例如說北部的他的統計例如說我們家戶家戶的這個有人幫我們收垃圾他可能就當成是商業廢棄物事業廢棄物在做計算所以這個其實各個縣市都存在這個數據這個數據上的偏差我們就暫時不討論可是我們就是看到現在你就是這麼多這麼多然後呢新竹我們就講現實一點這還包括就是你說簽約嘛要燒多少的事業廢棄物嘛\n\n04:29.904 --> 04:47.450\n可是在簽約的過程裡面為什麼新竹市政府處理事業廢棄物一頓收3000元比收新竹我們都是新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬頓全台最大的垃圾山因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去收一頓才1000元人家事業廢棄物進場是3000元\n\n04:53.152 --> 05:13.481\n所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收這個事業廢棄物去燒而且真正的問題也不是在這裡我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠民間焚化廠他可以處理的餘裕很多欸但是民間焚化廠一頓要收多少錢五千以上講錯了啦民間民間要收多少錢八千八千到一萬\n\n05:22.515 --> 05:37.708\n發言到1萬還到1萬8啦是公共焚化爐的6倍所以有事業廢棄物的焚化爐可以收而且有餘裕有量能而且民間的焚化爐事業廢棄物的焚化爐不用給你燒到滿它的那個處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢\n\n05:45.149 --> 05:54.975\n為什麼?因為收費太貴了啊。所以呢,交給我們的公共焚化爐三千塊,多少?萬倍!不是你說的五千、八千、一萬,是萬倍!所以你對這個數據都沒有掌握。所以2019年,經焚化爐處理的一般事業費、器物超過一半。\n\n06:07.241 --> 06:29.473\n將近60萬噸去了大型焚化廠就是我們的公共焚化廠所以民間還有多少量能限制你知道嗎?署長你知道嗎?保定一點不知道民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理?署長不知道保定不知道你們兩隻手都不知道你們說你們要管事業費事務說你們要管好焚化爐說你們要做什麼改過什麼問題都騙人的\n\n06:35.416 --> 06:43.282\n報告委員那個失業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部他們的工作你們不用追蹤喔那跟你們都無關喔當然要阿數據當然要把握阿要掌握阿民間繁華廠還有漁獄嫌質量可以還高達80多萬噸但是一棟賣宿賣宿一萬八千塊關鍵是在這\n\n07:01.912 --> 07:21.419\n你那個62萬噸叫公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物因為三千塊而已啊真正要燒事業廢棄物的一棟修門櫃而且還有量能可以處理遠遠大過於你進到公共焚化爐的量啊這要怎麼處理?他還沒燒到半他就可以賺大錢啊民間的\n\n07:30.275 --> 07:53.459\n報告委員這個民間的這個我們數字上沒有掌握我們了解之後再講我是跟你講說這種價格這麼嚴重的失衡所以你市場取向一定是成本降低啊大家也要去叫公共分化去修如果要修家戶垃圾新竹市就不需要修新竹縣耶然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來這問題在這裡啊\n\n07:56.857 --> 08:09.568\n我再說第二個問題,主要問題,區域調度的機制失效,我們有調度辦法,但沒有法則和執行力,所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你就知道現在市政府還有理由可以修,但是他覺得要修的比較好,事業費稅務。\n\n08:15.954 --> 08:23.538\n所以新竹市的焚化爐他把新竹縣250萬噸都拒絕了所以只收了150噸啦250噸變成只收150噸所以100噸的垃圾無處去變成堆積成山第三個你們掩埋場不當使用原本要當成戰制的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接受垃圾以台中大理掩埋場為例\n\n08:42.807 --> 09:08.116\n他本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣大理是本來是要埋底渣的而配合稅休的時候、焚化爐稅休的時候暫時加入垃圾台中有三座大型焚化廠但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了失業廢棄物所以現在有燒不完的垃圾遠遠不久的進入掩埋場然後堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾\n\n09:11.817 --> 09:12.197\n林淑芬林淑芬林淑芬\n\n09:31.042 --> 09:44.466\n在80年代台灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案以掩埋為主要方式但是到了1991年我們就以改焚化為主掩埋為輔從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐的灰飛的最終處理場址\n\n09:49.927 --> 10:04.934\n那灰飛每年固定用掩埋15萬噸左右所以這空間本來就都很省的就很省著用就沒什麼搞現在現在你們走回頭路整個台灣的垃圾處理政策倒退囉然後呢進來的垃圾變成進入掩埋場然後你的終極策略你的精進策略是什麼部長你的精進策略是什麼掩埋打包\n\n10:19.864 --> 10:24.948\n在這種狀況裏面全台灣的一般廢掩埋量這5年來一般廢棄物的掩埋量的成長率100%\n\n10:45.363 --> 10:52.209\n這五年我知道過去五年不是你啦但是我跟你講方向就這樣子你越大越多可以掩埋的掩埋一般費幾乎從108年的10308公噸增加到112年的199574公噸增加的幅度將近100%是99%所以顯著的增加的掩埋場包括大理台中大理的衛生掩埋場\n\n11:15.206 --> 11:19.050\n他從108年的2747公噸增加到112年是12萬2700變成12萬3562公噸臺中大理衛生掩埋廠掩埋的量這麼大而你衛福部提出的精進策略也是掩埋復土蓋埋蓋埋就好\n\n11:37.208 --> 12:01.073\n然後呢臺南的隆起隆起掩埋廠從108年才本來掩埋量是623公噸到112年是9109公噸啦這是成長幾倍啊所以你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋復土所以我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片\n\n12:02.401 --> 12:02.581\n林淑芬\n\n12:23.148 --> 12:33.835\n變成灰灰的附土然後用底紮再蓋上去灰灰垃圾底紮對你說這樣環境風險環評是允許這樣子的嗎以後還要挖起來篩分那些有毒的陽城對環境對工作人員的傷害對整個周遭的傷害要怎麼辦\n\n12:49.258 --> 12:52.499\n這都種金屬耶灰飛捏底渣捏你現在贊助垃圾這位而且底渣用底渣當成副土這個叫副土底渣當副土卻吸人啊所以第一個部長目前這樣堆積的危機啊你的主要的方式就精進的策略就掩埋副土\n\n13:11.508 --> 13:15.749\n但是從這個數據來看每年進場的一般費逐年增加這樣的覆土這樣的掩埋這樣的蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎第一個第二個針對事業廢棄物佔用公共焚化爐而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐卻有80萬噸的餘裕卻沒有燒這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼\n\n13:38.735 --> 13:40.378\n現在如果改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題,要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作?\n\n13:49.246 --> 14:04.509\n你回答包委員第一個問題是這個只是暫時的我們必須說未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做那就不可能24做整備好了他還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物而事業廢棄物處理廠他還是繼續這麼貴然後呢也是可以有餘裕可以處理但是就沒有人可以去燒三千到萬倍這就是問題啦要怎麼改觀\n\n14:18.121 --> 14:24.525\n為什麼一般廢棄物逐年增加?量增加了這麼快啦為什麼生活形態的改變生活形態的改變外國難道沒有嗎?外國也是一樣外國也是一樣?好那很好我問你因為這三題你沒有回答我繼續問你你知道台灣從1997年推動資源回收那個時候一推動資源回收人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20%\n\n14:47.738 --> 15:04.292\n現在近年來垃圾量開始增加特別是經濟越發達像新竹縣市新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是台灣全島第一名但是呢我們要講民生垃圾量比日本韓國新加坡還多你說生活形態的改變我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的\n\n15:10.818 --> 15:33.157\n2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤日本新加坡都低於1公斤2018到2022年台灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81增加的是我們這四個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度你說的生活形態改變紫色的是什麼你講給我聽我剛才有聽到你在尋答\n\n15:37.867 --> 15:49.242\n你講的我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡我們的生活形態上改變哪裡是我們變他們沒有變的所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的\n\n15:51.259 --> 16:10.125\n網購有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無UberEats有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無人家很發達你認為垃圾成長是這種生活形態改變人家也是可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降我們還在逐年增加\n\n16:14.966 --> 16:29.884\n你剛剛講網購啊疫情啊外送啊人家沒有疫情嗎亞洲日本韓國新加坡難道沒有網購嗎沒有外送嗎通通都有所以這不要拿這個來當藉口是什麼原因更不要講說啊\n\n16:34.158 --> 16:45.564\n一般進焚化爐的事業廢棄物你們講統計師真是有一部分事業廢棄物是來自於餐廳小吃店夜市那餐廳小吃店夜市你要解決這個問題是什麼解決韓國怎麼解決\n\n16:52.540 --> 17:15.357\n你來看一下我們的資源回收政策執行不髒本來我們台灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效結果越來越不髒反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高連餅乾袋地毯台灣沒有在回收的吃餅乾大家吃那麼多糖果餅乾台灣沒有回收人家都能夠回收為什麼部長\n\n17:18.513 --> 17:29.384\n而且維修前還要連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨資料標籤紙箱也要拆開整瓶去除標籤跟膠袋然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走為什麼為什麼他做得到\n\n17:34.859 --> 17:41.627\n這個就行政能力也有關係啊。你說的那些製造垃圾的人他們也都有啊。你看這個袋子。你看我們的驗室裡面的事業費器這個袋子。這個會分類嗎?這沒有分類。台灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路。\n\n17:55.881 --> 18:10.256\n我們非常粗略民眾還有一種不用分這麼細到時候親運都會混在一起為什麼什麼叫親運會混在一起台灣的民眾很認真的在分類然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的左手邊資源回收車右手邊垃圾車\n\n18:15.171 --> 18:21.581\n公所把他們資源回收來的資源回收戶倒下去噴射車裡面啦,每天在我們家門口啦,在我們家門口的啦。\n\n18:27.571 --> 18:30.772\n這像話嗎地方政府代表這樣做像話嗎垃圾資源回收所有每個人民都好好的回收了那有的時候分類沒做好所以公所地方政府面對這種問題是直接把它倒下去噴射車直接燒啦\n\n18:51.363 --> 19:06.208\n我們都問他每天下午5點說紅瓶在做這件事笑死人所以你知道這個事情嗎部長直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車而且不是我們都問他台北市台北市也是這樣啦我的助理又常常去卸財了啦你知道為什麼沒有作為\n\n19:19.741 --> 19:30.520\n部長,台灣這樣子人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名而且成長的速度最快你覺得原因是什麼啦?\n\n19:31.991 --> 19:55.610\n你剛才有沒有回答啊那如果你沒有不知道原因你有沒有具體的計畫知道怎麼源頭減廢怎麼讓人均廢棄物的下降的目標要定在哪裡而且要對應的策略拿出來有效策略是什麼你不要跟我講說怎麼數據失真啊這不是事實這個都是事實第二個清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物\n\n19:57.071 --> 19:58.032\n韓國對垃圾分類的嚴格的要求和處罰機制其實很有名的啦\n\n20:17.947 --> 20:36.116\n那你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及處理分類項目指引現在他們彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真從電子發票巧拼到茶葉等50幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收怎麼搭配所以彰化你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎三成以上\n\n20:38.912 --> 21:02.686\n兩三層除雨回收總量提高一倍資源回收物平均提升15%所以有沒有效政府有決心要做一定有效但是是你知道我們的除雨啊大家都在丟除雨啊到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面我們認真的除雨拿去除雨桶丟結果地方政府到最後丟到焚化爐裡面\n\n21:11.444 --> 21:28.182\n中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗可以複製出去韓國回收率這麼好能夠回收台灣沒有回收的品項你有沒有考慮要增加回收的品項的範圍能不能向他國來學習最後地方清潔隊這樣的做法\n\n21:29.643 --> 21:39.667\n嚴重的影響了民眾分類的意願和信心。我這麼認真就要分類,還要你把牌子在分色車,要做笑的。我這麼認真就要做廚餘,你搞不好你也是把牌子下去燒。所以你們就是上行下效嘛。環境部對這個有什麼做法,你還說你知道。那你具體的政策來看,你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢?\n\n21:58.152 --> 22:03.438\n您都在這裡點點就好了,不用回答。不用啦,找時間啦,他也不知道要怎麼做啦。有啦,有啦,張化的我們都全省一起來關注。不知道耶,都不知道耶。所理也不知道耶。4月7日兩人喔,遠遠大過於,你把他拖下去。\n\n22:19.034 --> 22:19.414\n謝謝委員謝謝林淑芬\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.878,"end":18.265,"text":"我其實很想問這個最簡單的問題就是說為什麼台灣的垃圾處理政策最後到現在會導致垃圾堆積如山"},{"start":37.274,"end":57.596,"text":"你覺得最簡單的原因,如果要說大概是什麼原因?報告委員,因為我也看了最近的一些數字,我就覺得從源頭的這個資訊的掌握的處理,我們可能過去沒有很精確。源頭的資訊,現在不用啊,因為就堆積如山一座一座,現在就是說"},{"start":59.278,"end":63.302,"text":"呃裸露堆置的垃圾量已經是72萬噸了比如說源頭的數據你不是講源頭減量喔你是講數據可能不精準可是很明顯的就49處的掩埋場堆成一座座的垃圾山新竹特別嚴重全台最大的垃圾堆積區啊"},{"start":78.536,"end":93.94,"text":"新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了16公尺多了5、6層樓總量一個新竹就超過20萬噸全台已經達到72萬公噸這個堆置在那裡的量這是事實這個不是統計的問題"},{"start":96.158,"end":122.875,"text":"但是這個是從其實第一個當然這個是這個粉化爐你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡第一個是粉化爐這個整改的問題第二個是整改的問題嗎還有第二個是我們對於整個一般廢棄物事業廢棄物整個這個流向的管制管理這個數據的掌握我必須承認其實我觀察的時候其實我們還是有很大進步的空間我必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭才有辦法"},{"start":123.015,"end":123.475,"text":"你知道嗎?我知道"},{"start":153.062,"end":153.082,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":180.561,"end":200.193,"text":"因為當時其實每一個焚化爐他在這個興建的時候都有簽訂跟地方政府簽訂一些合約包含了就是說他可以收納多少收納多少的失業廢棄物所以啊真正的原因就是大量的失業廢棄物占用了家戶這個要焚化的焚化爐的處理量能排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間"},{"start":201.974,"end":218.563,"text":"所以以新竹市為例新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒失業廢棄物的比例高達45%嚴重影響了民生垃圾的處理能力然後你再去看不是只有新竹市政府包括北投的台北市政府的北投木柵內湖南區廠高雄的岡山廠"},{"start":224.366,"end":227.17,"text":"都超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進場 進到這個公共的這個焚化爐去欸所以 變成本色沒人要修 一般垃圾沒人要修都修事業廢棄物 這樣對不對 這樣對不對"},{"start":241.368,"end":268.343,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是你說的例如說北部的他的統計例如說我們家戶家戶的這個有人幫我們收垃圾他可能就當成是商業廢棄物事業廢棄物在做計算所以這個其實各個縣市都存在這個數據這個數據上的偏差我們就暫時不討論可是我們就是看到現在你就是這麼多這麼多然後呢新竹我們就講現實一點這還包括就是你說簽約嘛要燒多少的事業廢棄物嘛"},{"start":269.904,"end":287.45,"text":"可是在簽約的過程裡面為什麼新竹市政府處理事業廢棄物一頓收3000元比收新竹我們都是新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬頓全台最大的垃圾山因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去收一頓才1000元人家事業廢棄物進場是3000元"},{"start":293.152,"end":313.481,"text":"所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收這個事業廢棄物去燒而且真正的問題也不是在這裡我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠民間焚化廠他可以處理的餘裕很多欸但是民間焚化廠一頓要收多少錢五千以上講錯了啦民間民間要收多少錢八千八千到一萬"},{"start":322.515,"end":337.708,"text":"發言到1萬還到1萬8啦是公共焚化爐的6倍所以有事業廢棄物的焚化爐可以收而且有餘裕有量能而且民間的焚化爐事業廢棄物的焚化爐不用給你燒到滿它的那個處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢"},{"start":345.149,"end":354.975,"text":"為什麼?因為收費太貴了啊。所以呢,交給我們的公共焚化爐三千塊,多少?萬倍!不是你說的五千、八千、一萬,是萬倍!所以你對這個數據都沒有掌握。所以2019年,經焚化爐處理的一般事業費、器物超過一半。"},{"start":367.241,"end":389.473,"text":"將近60萬噸去了大型焚化廠就是我們的公共焚化廠所以民間還有多少量能限制你知道嗎?署長你知道嗎?保定一點不知道民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理?署長不知道保定不知道你們兩隻手都不知道你們說你們要管事業費事務說你們要管好焚化爐說你們要做什麼改過什麼問題都騙人的"},{"start":395.416,"end":403.282,"text":"報告委員那個失業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部他們的工作你們不用追蹤喔那跟你們都無關喔當然要阿數據當然要把握阿要掌握阿民間繁華廠還有漁獄嫌質量可以還高達80多萬噸但是一棟賣宿賣宿一萬八千塊關鍵是在這"},{"start":421.912,"end":441.419,"text":"你那個62萬噸叫公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物因為三千塊而已啊真正要燒事業廢棄物的一棟修門櫃而且還有量能可以處理遠遠大過於你進到公共焚化爐的量啊這要怎麼處理?他還沒燒到半他就可以賺大錢啊 民間的"},{"start":450.275,"end":473.459,"text":"報告委員 這個民間的這個我們數字上沒有掌握我們了解之後再講我是跟你講說這種價格這麼嚴重的失衡所以你市場取向一定是成本降低啊大家也要去叫公共分化去修如果要修家戶垃圾新竹市就不需要修新竹縣耶然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來這問題在這裡啊"},{"start":476.857,"end":489.568,"text":"我再說第二個問題,主要問題,區域調度的機制失效,我們有調度辦法,但沒有法則和執行力,所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你就知道現在市政府還有理由可以修,但是他覺得要修的比較好,事業費稅務。"},{"start":495.954,"end":503.538,"text":"所以新竹市的焚化爐他把新竹縣250萬噸都拒絕了所以只收了150噸啦250噸變成只收150噸所以100噸的垃圾無處去變成堆積成山第三個你們掩埋場不當使用原本要當成戰制的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接受垃圾以台中大理掩埋場為例"},{"start":522.807,"end":548.116,"text":"他本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣大理是本來是要埋底渣的而配合稅休的時候、焚化爐稅休的時候暫時加入垃圾台中有三座大型焚化廠但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了失業廢棄物所以現在有燒不完的垃圾遠遠不久的進入掩埋場然後堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾"},{"start":551.817,"end":552.197,"text":"林淑芬 林淑芬 林淑芬"},{"start":571.042,"end":584.466,"text":"在80年代台灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案以掩埋為主要方式但是到了1991年我們就以改焚化為主掩埋為輔從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐的灰飛的最終處理場址"},{"start":589.927,"end":604.934,"text":"那灰飛每年固定用掩埋15萬噸左右所以這空間本來就都很省的就很省著用就沒什麼搞現在現在你們走回頭路整個台灣的垃圾處理政策倒退囉然後呢進來的垃圾變成進入掩埋場然後你的終極策略你的精進策略是什麼部長你的精進策略是什麼掩埋打包"},{"start":619.864,"end":624.948,"text":"在這種狀況裏面全台灣的一般廢掩埋量這5年來一般廢棄物的掩埋量的成長率100%"},{"start":645.363,"end":652.209,"text":"這五年 我知道過去五年不是你啦但是我跟你講 方向就這樣子你越大越多可以掩埋的掩埋一般費幾乎從108年的10308公噸增加到112年的199574公噸增加的幅度將近100%是99%所以顯著的增加的掩埋場包括大理 台中大理的衛生掩埋場"},{"start":675.206,"end":679.05,"text":"他從108年的2747公噸增加到112年是12萬2700變成12萬3562公噸臺中大理衛生掩埋廠 掩埋的量這麼大而你衛福部提出的精進策略也是掩埋復土蓋埋 蓋埋就好"},{"start":697.208,"end":721.073,"text":"然後呢臺南的隆起隆起掩埋廠從108年才 本來掩埋量是623公噸到112年是9109公噸啦這是成長幾倍啊所以你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋復土所以我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片"},{"start":722.401,"end":722.581,"text":"林淑芬"},{"start":743.148,"end":753.835,"text":"變成灰灰的附土然後用底紮再蓋上去灰灰垃圾底紮對你說這樣環境風險環評是允許這樣子的嗎以後還要挖起來篩分那些有毒的陽城對環境對工作人員的傷害對整個周遭的傷害要怎麼辦"},{"start":769.258,"end":772.499,"text":"這都種金屬耶 灰飛捏 底渣捏 你現在贊助垃圾這位而且底渣用底渣當成副土 這個叫副土底渣當副土 卻吸人啊 所以第一個部長目前這樣堆積的危機啊 你的主要的方式就精進的策略就掩埋副土"},{"start":791.508,"end":795.749,"text":"但是從這個數據來看每年進場的一般費逐年增加這樣的覆土這樣的掩埋這樣的蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎第一個第二個針對事業廢棄物佔用公共焚化爐而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐卻有80萬噸的餘裕卻沒有燒這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼"},{"start":818.735,"end":820.378,"text":"現在如果改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題,要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作?"},{"start":829.246,"end":844.509,"text":"你回答包委員第一個問題是這個只是暫時的我們必須說未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做那就不可能24做整備好了他還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物而事業廢棄物處理廠他還是繼續這麼貴然後呢也是可以有餘裕可以處理但是就沒有人可以去燒三千到萬倍這就是問題啦要怎麼改觀"},{"start":858.121,"end":864.525,"text":"為什麼一般廢棄物逐年增加?量增加了這麼快啦為什麼生活形態的改變生活形態的改變外國難道沒有嗎?外國也是一樣外國也是一樣?好那很好我問你因為這三題你沒有回答我繼續問你你知道台灣從1997年推動資源回收那個時候一推動資源回收人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20%"},{"start":887.738,"end":904.292,"text":"現在近年來垃圾量開始增加特別是經濟越發達像新竹縣市新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是台灣全島第一名但是呢我們要講民生垃圾量比日本韓國新加坡還多你說生活形態的改變我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的"},{"start":910.818,"end":933.157,"text":"2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤日本新加坡都低於1公斤2018到2022年台灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81增加的是我們這四個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度你說的生活形態改變紫色的是什麼你講給我聽我剛才有聽到你在尋答"},{"start":937.867,"end":949.242,"text":"你講的我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡我們的生活形態上改變哪裡是我們變他們沒有變的所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的"},{"start":951.259,"end":970.125,"text":"網購有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無Uber Eats有人請加坡甘無韓國甘無日本甘無人家很發達你認為垃圾成長是這種生活形態改變人家也是可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降我們還在逐年增加"},{"start":974.966,"end":989.884,"text":"你剛剛講網購啊疫情啊外送啊人家沒有疫情嗎亞洲日本韓國新加坡難道沒有網購嗎沒有外送嗎通通都有所以這不要拿這個來當藉口是什麼原因更不要講說啊"},{"start":994.158,"end":1005.564,"text":"一般進焚化爐的事業廢棄物你們講統計師真是有一部分事業廢棄物是來自於餐廳小吃店夜市那餐廳小吃店夜市你要解決這個問題是什麼解決韓國怎麼解決"},{"start":1012.54,"end":1035.357,"text":"你來看一下我們的資源回收政策執行不髒本來我們台灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效結果越來越不髒反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高連餅乾袋地毯台灣沒有在回收的吃餅乾大家吃那麼多糖果餅乾台灣沒有回收人家都能夠回收為什麼部長"},{"start":1038.513,"end":1049.384,"text":"而且維修前還要連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨資料標籤紙箱也要拆開整瓶去除標籤跟膠袋然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走為什麼為什麼他做得到"},{"start":1054.859,"end":1061.627,"text":"這個就行政能力也有關係啊。你說的那些製造垃圾的人他們也都有啊。你看這個袋子。你看我們的驗室裡面的事業費器這個袋子。這個會分類嗎?這沒有分類。台灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路。"},{"start":1075.881,"end":1090.256,"text":"我們非常粗略民眾還有一種不用分這麼細到時候親運都會混在一起為什麼什麼叫親運會混在一起台灣的民眾很認真的在分類然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的左手邊資源回收車右手邊垃圾車"},{"start":1095.171,"end":1101.581,"text":"公所把他們資源回收來的資源回收戶倒下去噴射車裡面啦,每天在我們家門口啦,在我們家門口的啦。"},{"start":1107.571,"end":1110.772,"text":"這像話嗎地方政府代表這樣做像話嗎垃圾資源回收所有每個人民都好好的回收了那有的時候分類沒做好所以公所地方政府面對這種問題是直接把它倒下去噴射車直接燒啦"},{"start":1131.363,"end":1146.208,"text":"我們都問他每天下午5點說紅瓶在做這件事 笑死人所以你知道這個事情嗎部長 直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車 而且不是我們都問他 台北市 台北市也是這樣啦 我的助理又常常去卸財了啦 你知道為什麼沒有作為"},{"start":1159.741,"end":1170.52,"text":"部長,台灣這樣子人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名而且成長的速度最快你覺得原因是什麼啦?"},{"start":1171.991,"end":1195.61,"text":"你剛才有沒有回答啊那如果你沒有不知道原因你有沒有具體的計畫知道怎麼源頭減廢怎麼讓人均廢棄物的下降的目標要定在哪裡而且要對應的策略拿出來有效策略是什麼你不要跟我講說怎麼數據失真啊這不是事實這個都是事實第二個清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物"},{"start":1197.071,"end":1198.032,"text":"韓國對垃圾分類的嚴格的要求和處罰機制其實很有名的啦"},{"start":1217.947,"end":1236.116,"text":"那你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及處理分類項目指引現在他們彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真從電子發票巧拼到茶葉等50幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收怎麼搭配所以彰化你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎三成以上"},{"start":1238.912,"end":1262.686,"text":"兩三層除雨回收總量提高一倍資源回收物平均提升15%所以有沒有效政府有決心要做一定有效但是是你知道我們的除雨啊大家都在丟除雨啊到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面我們認真的除雨拿去除雨桶丟結果地方政府到最後丟到焚化爐裡面"},{"start":1271.444,"end":1288.182,"text":"中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗可以複製出去韓國回收率這麼好能夠回收台灣沒有回收的品項你有沒有考慮要增加回收的品項的範圍能不能向他國來學習最後地方清潔隊這樣的做法"},{"start":1289.643,"end":1299.667,"text":"嚴重的影響了民眾分類的意願和信心。我這麼認真就要分類,還要你把牌子在分色車,要做笑的。我這麼認真就要做廚餘,你搞不好你也是把牌子下去燒。所以你們就是上行下效嘛。環境部對這個有什麼做法,你還說你知道。那你具體的政策來看,你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢?"},{"start":1318.152,"end":1323.438,"text":"您都在這裡點點就好了,不用回答。不用啦,找時間啦,他也不知道要怎麼做啦。有啦,有啦,張化的我們都全省一起來關注。不知道耶,都不知道耶。所理也不知道耶。4月7日兩人喔,遠遠大過於,你把他拖下去。"},{"start":1339.034,"end":1339.414,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝林淑芬"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:46:02 - 13:08:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155209,"gazette":{"lineno":1196,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時46分）好，謝謝，是不是有請彭部長？"],["主席：部長，請。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我其實很想問最簡單的問題，為什麼臺灣的垃圾處理政策，最後會導致垃圾堆積如山？你覺得最簡單的原因大概是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我也看了最近的一些數字，我是覺得掌握源頭的資訊及處理，我們過去可能沒有很精確。"],["林委員淑芬：源頭的資訊？現在不用，因為就是堆積如山，一座、一座的。現在裸露堆置的垃圾量已經達72萬噸了。你是說源頭的數據，還不是源頭減量喔，而是數據可能不精準。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：很明顯地就是，49處的掩埋場，堆成了一座座的垃圾山，新竹特別嚴重，是全臺最大的垃圾堆積區，新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了，相當於十六公尺多了，一個新竹的總量就超過20萬噸，全臺已經達到72萬公噸，堆置在那裡的量是事實，而不是統計的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：但是這個是從……"],["林委員淑芬：你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個當然是焚化爐整改的問題，第二個是……"],["林委員淑芬：整改的問題嗎？好。"],["彭部長啓明：第二個是，我們對於一般廢棄物、事業廢棄物整個流向的管制、管理，這個數據的掌握，我必須承認，就我觀察來看，其實我們還是有很大的進步空間。我們必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭，才有辦法……"],["林委員淑芬：你所謂「流向的管理」指涉的是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：舉例來說，一般廢棄物跟事業廢棄物，其比例到底是多少？我們家戶的垃圾……"],["林委員淑芬：你講的這個都閃躲了，我現在就講，主要問題就包括，第一個，焚化爐的處理能力跟分配失衡。全臺灣的垃圾焚化處理量能是680萬噸，遠遠大於需要焚化的家戶垃圾總量幾萬噸，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道，是四百八十幾。"],["林委員淑芬：470萬。我們焚化爐可以處理的量能有680萬，而家戶垃圾總量才470萬，所以還有210萬噸的餘裕在那裡。如果全臺灣垃圾焚化爐的處理量能這麼大，怎麼垃圾山還會一座、一座裸露地堆置，問題愈來愈嚴重呢？為什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：因為當時其實每一個焚化爐在興建的時候都有跟地方政府簽訂一些合約，包含它可以收納多少的事業廢棄物。"],["林委員淑芬：所以真正的原因就是大量的事業廢棄物占用了焚化爐要處理家戶垃圾的處理量能，排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間。以新竹市為例，新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒事業廢棄物的比例高達45%，嚴重地影響了民生垃圾的處理能力。","然後你再去看，不是只有新竹市政府，包括臺北市政府的北投、木柵、內湖，南區廠高雄的岡山廠，超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進到這個公共焚化爐去耶！所以變成垃圾沒人要收，一般垃圾不收都收事業棄廢物，這樣對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，你說的，例如北部的統計，家戶的垃圾有人幫我們收，它可能就當成是事業廢棄物計算，所以其實各個縣市都存在這個數字上的落差……"],["林委員淑芬：這個數據上的偏差，我們就暫時不討論，可是我們就是看到，現在就是這麼多。","新竹縣的部分，我們就講現實一點，這個還包括，你說簽約要燒多少的事業廢棄物，可是在簽約的過程裡面，為什麼新竹市政府處理事業廢棄物1噸收3,000元？我們都知道新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬噸，是全臺最大的垃圾山，因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去燒，1噸才1,000元，人家事業廢棄物進場是3,000元，所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收事業廢棄物去燒，而且真正的問題也不是在這裡，我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠，民間焚化廠可以處理的餘裕很多，但是民間焚化廠1噸要收多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：5,000以上。"],["林委員淑芬：講錯了啦！"],["彭部長啓明：民間？"],["林委員淑芬：民間要收多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：8,000到1萬。"],["林委員淑芬：8,000到1萬，還到1萬8,000啦！是公共焚化爐的6倍，所以事業廢棄物焚化爐可以收，而且有餘裕有量能，而且民間焚化爐的處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢，為什麼？因為收費太貴了，交給我們公共焚化爐是3,000元，外面是1萬8,000，不是你說的5,000、8,000、1萬，是1萬8,000，你對這個數據都沒有掌握2019年經焚化爐處理的一般事業廢棄物超過一半，將近62萬噸去了大型焚化廠，就是我們的公共焚化廠，所以民間還有多少量能閒置你知道嗎？署長，你知道嗎？部長一定不知道，民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理？署長不知道，部長不知道，你們連這些數字都不知道，你們說要管理事業廢棄物，說要管理焚化爐，說你們要做什麼、解決什麼問題，都騙人的！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，事業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部的工作。"],["林委員淑芬：你們不用追蹤喔！那跟你們都無關喔！當然要啊！數據當然要把握、要掌握啊！民間焚化廠還有餘裕，閒置量還高達八十多萬噸，但是燒1噸要收1萬8,000元，關鍵是在這裡。那個62萬噸讓公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物，因為3,000元而已，真正要燒事業廢棄物的1噸收1萬8,000，而且還有量能可以處理，遠遠大過進到公共焚化爐的量，這要怎麼處理？民間的不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，民間的這個，數字上我們沒有掌握，我們瞭解之後再跟委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：我是跟你講，價格這麼嚴重的失衡，市場取向一定是降低成本，所以大家都要給公共焚化爐燒，結果要燒家戶垃圾的新竹市就不要燒新竹縣的，然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來，這個問題在這裡啊！","我再說第二個問題，主要問題是區域調度的機制失效，我們有調度辦法，但沒有罰則和執行力，所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你知道新竹市政府還有量能可以燒，但是它寧願要燒那個價格比較好的事業廢棄物，所以新竹市的焚化爐把新竹縣的250噸都拒絕了，只收了150噸，250噸只收150噸，100噸的垃圾無處去，變成堆積成山。","第三個，你們掩埋場不當使用，原本要當成暫置的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接收垃圾。以臺中大里掩埋場為例，它本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣，大里掩埋場本來是要埋底渣的，偶爾配合焚化爐歲修的時候暫置家戶垃圾。臺中有三座大型焚化廠，但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了事業廢棄物，所以現在有燒不完的垃圾源源不絕的進入掩埋場，堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾，山坳、山谷都快要填平了，什麼時候可以進場燃燒也不知道。所以你們在大大的縮短掩埋場的使用壽命，而且最重要的是我們已經走回頭路、「倒退嚕」了。在八○年代，臺灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案，以掩埋為主要方式，但是到了1991年我們就改以焚化為主掩埋為輔，從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐飛灰的最終處理場址，飛灰每年固定要掩埋15萬噸左右，所以這個空間本來就很省著用都不太夠，現在你們還走回頭路，整個臺灣的垃圾處理政策「倒退嚕」，垃圾竟然變成進入掩埋場，然後你的精進策略是什麼？部長，你的精進策略是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：掩埋、打包。"],["林委員淑芬：掩埋覆土，這不是掩埋，這是什麼？把掩埋當成最終處理了，所以這不是「倒退嚕」，這是什麼？在這種狀況裡面，這五年來全臺灣一般廢棄物掩埋量的成長率100%，我知道過去五年不是你主政，但是我跟你講方向就這樣子，越埋越多，可以掩埋的掩埋。一般廢棄物從108年的10萬308公噸增加到112年的19萬9,574公噸，增加的幅度將近100%，是99%。掩埋量顯著增加的掩埋場，包括臺中大里的衛生掩埋場，它從108年的2,747公噸增加到112年是12萬3,562公噸，臺中大里衛生掩埋場掩埋的量這麼大，而環境部提出的精進策略也是掩埋覆土，蓋著就好;還有臺南的龍崎掩埋場，它108年本來掩埋量是623公噸，到112年是9,109公噸，這是成長幾倍！可是你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋覆土。","我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片，本來的掩埋場是要掩埋飛灰的，看到的白色太空包都是飛灰，它的掩埋是要專區掩埋的，但是現在你號稱暫置堆置的垃圾入侵了飛灰的範圍，變成飛灰的覆土，用底渣再蓋上去，結果飛灰、垃圾、底渣三種混合在一起在掩埋場裡面，你說環評是允許這樣子的嗎？以後還要挖起來篩分，那些有毒的揚塵對環境、對工作人員的傷害、對整個週遭的傷害要怎麼辦？這都重金屬耶！飛灰耶！底渣耶！跟你現在暫置的垃圾混合在一起，而且用底渣當成覆土，這個叫覆土，底渣當覆土，笑死人了！","部長，第一個，目前這樣堆積的危機，你精進的策略就是掩埋覆土，但是從這個數據來看，每年進場的一般廢棄物逐年增加，這樣的覆土、這樣的掩埋、這樣蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎？第一個。第二個，針對事業廢棄物占用公共焚化爐，而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐，卻有80萬噸的餘裕沒有燒，這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個……"],["林委員淑芬：讓我問完。第三個，如何改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題，要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作？你回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個問題是這個只是暫時的，我們必須說，未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做燃燒的……"],["林委員淑芬：那就不可能，24座整備好了，它還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物，而事業廢棄物處理廠還是繼續這麼貴，然後還有餘裕可以處理，但是就沒有人要拿去那邊燒，3,000和1萬8,000，這就是問題，要怎麼解決？你也不能這麼說，一般廢棄物為什麼逐年增加？量增加這麼快？為什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：生活型態的改變。"],["林委員淑芬：生活型態的改變，外國難道沒有嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：外國也是一樣，都是增加的。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那很好。因為這三題你沒有回答，我繼續問你。你知道臺灣從1997年推動資源回收，那個時候一推動資源回收，人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20%，近年來垃圾量開始增加，特別是經濟越發達，像新竹縣市，新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是臺灣全島第一名，但是我們要講，民生垃圾量比日本、韓國、新加坡還多，你說生活型態的改變，我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的，2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤，日本、新加坡都低於1公斤，2018到2022年臺灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81%，是4個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的，連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度，你說生活型態改變指涉的是什麼？你講給我聽，我剛才有聽到你在詢答，你說我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡，我們的生活型態上改變，哪裡是我們變他們沒有變，所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的？網購，新加坡難道沒有嗎？韓國難道沒有？日本難道沒有？Uber Eats，新加坡難道沒有嗎？韓國難道沒有？日本難道沒有？他們很發達，你認為垃圾成長是這種生活型態改變，人家也是，可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降，我們還在逐年增加？剛才講網購、疫情、外送等，人家沒有疫情嗎？亞洲的日本、韓國、新加坡難道沒有網購嗎？沒有外送嗎？通通都有，所以不要拿這個來當藉口，是什麼原因？更不要講一般進焚化爐的事業廢棄物，你們講的統計失真是有一部分的事業廢棄物來自於餐廳、小吃店、夜市，那餐廳、小吃店、夜市，這個問題是怎麼解決？韓國怎麼解決？你來看一下，我們的資源回收政策執行不彰，本來我們臺灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效，結果越來越不彰，反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高，連餅乾袋、地毯，臺灣沒有在回收的，餅乾大家吃那麼多，糖果、餅乾，臺灣沒有回收耶！人家都能夠回收，部長，為什麼？而且回收前還有連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨、撕掉標籤，紙箱也要拆開整平，去除標籤及膠帶，然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走，為什麼？為什麼他做得到？這個跟行政能力也有關係啊！你說的那些製造垃圾的人，他們也都有，你看這張，你看那個袋子，我們夜市裡面的事業廢棄物，這個袋子會分類嗎？這沒有分類，臺灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路，我們非常粗略，民眾還不用分這麼細，到時候清運都會混在一起，為什麼？什麼清運會混在一起？臺灣民眾很認真在分類，然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的，左手邊資源回收車，右手邊垃圾車，公所把他們資源回收來的資源回收物倒進垃圾車裡面，每天在我們家門口，這是我們家門口的啦！這像話嗎？地方政府帶頭這樣做，像話嗎？垃圾、資源回收，每個人民都好好的回收了，有的時候分類沒做好，所以公所、地方政府面對這種問題就是直接倒進去垃圾車直接燒，我們家門口每天下午5點，公園旁邊在做這種事情，笑死人！所以你知道這個事情嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["林委員淑芬：直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車，而且不是只有我們家門口，臺北市也是這樣啦！我的助理還常常去拍照，你知道喔！你知道為什麼沒有作為？","部長，臺灣人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名，而且成長的速度最快，你覺得原因是什麼？你剛才也沒有回答，如果你不知道原因，你有沒有具體的計畫，知道怎麼源頭減廢？怎麼讓人均廢棄物下降的目標要定在哪裡？而且對應的策略、拿出來的有效策略是什麼？你不要跟我講什麼數據失真、這不是事實，這個都是事實。第二個，清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物要怎麼處理？韓國是怎麼處理？人家專用垃圾怎麼處理？餐廳、小吃店、市場，我們已經輸韓國也沒關係，你看人家怎麼處理，我們繼續這樣處理下去可以嗎？韓國對垃圾分類嚴格的要求和處罰機制其實很有名啦！你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及廚餘分類項目指引，現在彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真，從電子發票、巧拼到茶葉等五十幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收、怎麼搭配，所以你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：三成以上。"],["林委員淑芬：兩、三成，廚餘回收總量提高一倍，資源回收物平均提升15%，所以有沒有效？政府有決心要做一定有效，但是你知道我們的廚餘，大家都在丟廚餘，到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面，我們很認真的將廚餘拿去廚餘桶丟，結果地方政府到最後卻丟到焚化爐裡面，剛才說的回收也丟到焚化爐裡面。"],["主席：林委員，超過10分鐘了。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗複製出去？韓國回收率這麼好，能夠回收臺灣沒有回收的品項，你有沒有考慮要增加回收品項的範圍？能不能向他國來學習？最後，地方清潔隊這樣的作法，嚴重影響了民眾分類的意願和信心，我這麼認真地分類，最後他們把它丟到垃圾車，不就在「裝肖仔」，我這麼認真處理廚餘，到最後你也是把它丟進去燒，所以你們就是上行下效嘛！環境部對這個有什麼作法你還說你知道，以具體的政策來看，你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢？你們都在這裡安靜就好了，不用回答？"],["主席：找時間去委員辦公室報告啦！"],["林委員淑芬：不用啦！找時間來，他也不知道要怎麼做。"],["彭部長啓明：有啦！有啦！委員，彰化，我們都還全省一起去觀摩。"],["林委員淑芬：剛才問的都不知道，數字也不知道，事業廢棄物量能遠遠大過你們把它丟進去公共焚化爐的啦！所以公共焚化爐的量能弄出來，垃圾山就減少，但是最重點是要源頭減量，不是只有數據，數據跟統計當然會有失誤，也值得改進，但真正的問題是政府要好好的管理。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。","接續謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","請牛煦庭委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}}