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354.658, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 354.658, \"end\": 354.678, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 354.678, \"end\": 354.698, \"score\": 0.143}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"．\"}]}, {\"start\": 373.123, \"end\": 401.793, \"text\": \"還有一個部分是晶片標示模糊那這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 373.123, \"end\": 373.323, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 373.323, \"end\": 373.583, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 373.583, \"end\": 373.743, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 373.743, \"end\": 373.963, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 373.963, \"end\": 374.184, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"晶\", \"start\": 374.184, \"end\": 374.424, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"片\", \"start\": 374.424, \"end\": 375.084, \"score\": 0.948}, 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\"個\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 398.952, \"end\": 399.712, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 399.712, \"end\": 399.972, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 399.972, \"end\": 400.472, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 400.472, \"end\": 400.632, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 400.632, \"end\": 400.713, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 400.713, \"end\": 400.833, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 400.833, \"end\": 401.273, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 401.273, \"end\": 401.573, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 401.573, \"end\": 401.773, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 401.773, \"end\": 401.793, \"score\": 0.655}]}, {\"start\": 403.031, \"end\": 424.494, \"text\": \"請孫副委員是不是檢調的回答一下?我們前面這八個案子只有一個案子進入檢調部長只有一個案子進入檢調而已其他幾個案子都是我們主動查出來然後移送的最後您剛剛提的這兩個案子目前正在進行驗收的程序我們會按照媒體爆料的內容嚴格的去查核只要有牽涉不法我們就一定按合約來辦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"孫\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 403.031, \"end\": 403.212, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 403.212, \"end\": 403.312, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 403.312, \"end\": 403.392, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 403.392, \"end\": 403.492, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 403.492, \"end\": 403.512, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 403.512, \"end\": 403.612, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 403.612, \"end\": 403.812, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 403.812, \"end\": 404.012, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 404.012, \"end\": 404.153, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 404.153, \"end\": 404.553, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 404.553, \"end\": 404.973, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 404.973, \"end\": 405.134, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 405.134, \"end\": 405.754, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"八\", \"start\": 405.754, \"end\": 405.934, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 405.934, \"end\": 406.195, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 406.195, \"end\": 406.775, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 406.775, \"end\": 406.976, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 406.976, \"end\": 407.096, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 407.096, \"end\": 407.296, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 407.296, \"end\": 407.496, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 407.496, \"end\": 407.736, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 407.736, \"end\": 408.397, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 408.397, \"end\": 408.757, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 408.757, \"end\": 408.877, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 408.877, \"end\": 408.958, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 408.958, \"end\": 409.138, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 409.138, \"end\": 409.298, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 409.298, \"end\": 409.538, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 409.538, \"end\": 410.059, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 410.059, \"end\": 410.219, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 410.219, \"end\": 410.86, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 410.86, \"end\": 410.98, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 410.98, \"end\": 411.4, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 411.4, \"end\": 411.58, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 411.58, \"end\": 411.68, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 411.68, \"end\": 411.841, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 411.841, \"end\": 411.961, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 411.961, \"end\": 412.301, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 412.301, \"end\": 413.062, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 413.062, \"end\": 413.322, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 413.322, \"end\": 413.442, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 413.442, \"end\": 413.662, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 413.662, \"end\": 413.903, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 413.903, \"end\": 414.063, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 414.063, \"end\": 414.303, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 414.303, \"end\": 414.764, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 414.764, \"end\": 414.924, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 414.924, \"end\": 415.084, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 415.084, \"end\": 415.464, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 415.464, \"end\": 415.564, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 415.564, \"end\": 415.945, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 415.945, \"end\": 416.145, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 416.145, \"end\": 416.265, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 416.265, \"end\": 416.485, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 416.485, \"end\": 416.746, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 416.746, \"end\": 417.006, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 417.006, \"end\": 417.486, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 417.486, \"end\": 417.847, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 417.847, \"end\": 418.007, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 418.007, \"end\": 418.107, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 418.107, \"end\": 418.287, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 418.287, \"end\": 418.547, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 418.547, \"end\": 418.768, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"按\", \"start\": 418.768, \"end\": 419.008, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 419.008, \"end\": 419.548, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 419.548, \"end\": 419.929, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"爆\", \"start\": 419.929, \"end\": 420.089, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 420.089, \"end\": 420.269, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 420.269, \"end\": 420.569, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 420.569, \"end\": 421.47, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 421.47, \"end\": 421.611, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 421.611, \"end\": 421.731, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 421.731, \"end\": 421.871, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 421.871, \"end\": 422.111, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 422.111, \"end\": 422.612, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 422.612, \"end\": 422.732, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 422.732, \"end\": 422.912, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 422.912, \"end\": 423.232, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"牽\"}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 423.232, \"end\": 423.372, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 423.372, \"end\": 423.513, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 423.513, \"end\": 423.693, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 423.693, \"end\": 423.913, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 423.913, \"end\": 424.053, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 424.053, \"end\": 424.173, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 424.173, \"end\": 424.293, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"按\", \"start\": 424.293, \"end\": 424.473, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 424.473, \"end\": 424.494, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}]}, {\"start\": 424.974, \"end\": 451.258, \"text\": \"所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收。因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部分還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好?針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 424.974, \"end\": 425.174, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 425.174, \"end\": 425.414, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 425.414, \"end\": 425.655, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 425.655, \"end\": 425.875, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 473.768, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 473.768, \"end\": 474.929, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 474.929, \"end\": 474.949, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,012 --> 00:00:02,175\n謝謝主席我想請一下顧部長有請顧部長\n\n2\n00:00:11,993 --> 00:00:35,610\n部長好,已經超過1點鐘了那還有很多委員也等在質詢那國防部的同仁也都還在現場就是可以感覺到國防部還是蠻矜持的啦那我在想說因為今天我們在講說雷神這個案子的時候那您之前也回答過就是很多委員就提到說因為我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣那我在想說因為我們軍售的時候美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費\n\n3\n00:00:38,172 --> 00:00:41,055\n還有1.2%的那個合約管理服務費是不是這樣子?也是。是這樣子嗎?那除了3.2%的行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費還有沒有其他的費用?\n\n4\n00:00:52,658 --> 00:01:11,450\n他那個計算的部分在發家書製作的時候會把相當多的因素放進去那基本上就是這兩個主要的一個收費嘛對不對額外收費的部分這兩個部分是主要針對專案管理就是未來為我們的軍售案做財務法律採購跟專案管理相關的\n\n5\n00:01:12,951 --> 00:01:37,609\n我想說請教一下部長因為那個雷神這個部分因為有福報那坦白說我覺得美國政府主動發現這件事情然後主動查辦然後通知我們我倒覺得這個部分倒不是以美論我覺得反而這件事情我覺得反而要給美國政府某一個部分的肯定至少我角度是這樣子的那我在想說因為雷神這個福報這個軍購案的時候呢那我想問一下台灣到底被坑了多少錢\n\n6\n00:01:39,723 --> 00:01:58,601\n跟委員報告我想美方在進行照會的時候有跟我們提供一個初步的金額但是我剛已經在機密報告已經報了那我想這些都還在司法調查程序進行當中那我想我們據台美之間的默契在司法程序還在進行當中我們就不以公開說明\n\n7\n00:02:00,082 --> 00:02:22,451\n部長這部分我也尊重不過因為你在回應媒體的時候你有特別提到不當款項你會全數追討回來嗎我想請教這全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的部分還是所有之前跟雷神之前說的一個軍購案的部分都會重新去檢討然後把不當的部分討回來\n\n8\n00:02:23,791 --> 00:02:43,425\n第一個當然是就現行美方所查出來的這個部分的金額,美方會跟我們恰上就是說將雷神追討回來以後還給我們,這是第一個。第二個其他案的部分呢美國現在已經也在逐一的清查,全面的清查當中。\n\n9\n00:02:44,125 --> 00:02:59,933\n所以清查之前跟雷神的一個相關的一個軍售交易的部分嘛,對不對?對,應該是他全面性的清查了。所以不是只針對目前被揭露的部分而是全面性的清查嘛,對不對?對,美國政府的告知是如此。\n\n10\n00:03:00,273 --> 00:03:28,019\nOK那我想說這部分我想說我們國防部這邊立場的時候我就肯定還是要持續去follow後續的一個問題那我這邊延續的部分就是說因為美國政府竟然有收在軍售當中有收3.2%的一個行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費那我們對台軍售的部分他們對台軍售的部分不斷的延遲那這個部分我們是不是可以也要求他們能夠去加以\n\n11\n00:03:29,417 --> 00:03:54,550\n把軍售的那部分時間把它給不要延後到那麼多至少這個221美金的部分19項的部分是不是可以把它給往前把它給弄好跟委員報告這個221或19項這應該跟實際的狀況是不符合的我想我們應該是依照我們跟美方簽訂的合約就是說發價數的內容來加以利利那所以真正延遲的部分應該\n\n12\n00:03:55,810 --> 00:04:21,031\n這個部分我想說到時候您再給我一個書面一個資料因為在之前我們也關心過很多那我現在想要特別講的部分是因為在這段時間的時候中國武力威脅器不斷讓我們國防部的裝備去狂用錄製的一個產品七月份的時候國防部清查全軍158處所有24室使用錄製的一個產品包括四個案子是錄油器還有資料處理器\n\n13\n00:04:21,391 --> 00:04:31,607\n然後八百多部的行車紀錄席都是那我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止大概有十個案子都是國防部\n\n14\n00:04:33,612 --> 00:04:48,504\n一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續\n\n15\n00:05:03,576 --> 00:05:28,752\n李電池也被認為是有影響知通訊安全的一個部分那針對這八個案子當的這十個案子裡面有八個案子都是中科院的那部長因為你本身是中科院的董事長那所以說我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別的去關注那針對這個部分我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過\n\n16\n00:05:30,236 --> 00:05:48,135\n那麼在這個剛被揭露出來的部分竄改錄製電池的這部分他在寬頻那個通信機裡面標案在這裡面請部長去嚴厲去查到時候在整個驗收的時候務必不能夠被\n\n17\n00:05:49,957 --> 00:05:54,698\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．\n\n18\n00:06:13,123 --> 00:06:41,793\n還有一個部分是晶片標示模糊那這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分\n\n19\n00:06:43,031 --> 00:07:04,494\n請孫副委員是不是檢調的回答一下?我們前面這八個案子只有一個案子進入檢調部長只有一個案子進入檢調而已其他幾個案子都是我們主動查出來然後移送的最後您剛剛提的這兩個案子目前正在進行驗收的程序我們會按照媒體爆料的內容嚴格的去查核只要有牽涉不法我們就一定按合約來辦\n\n20\n00:07:04,974 --> 00:07:31,258\n所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收。因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部分還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好?針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好?\n\n21\n00:07:32,518 --> 00:07:54,949\n對,中間剛回答了剛剛委員提到後面兩個案子因為還沒有進行驗收所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收好,謝謝部長那其他的案子之前處理得如何也請給本席一個書面回應因為到目前為止只有天空飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序好不好?是謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1012\t2175\t謝謝主席我想請一下顧部長有請顧部長\n11993\t35610\t部長好,已經超過1點鐘了那還有很多委員也等在質詢那國防部的同仁也都還在現場就是可以感覺到國防部還是蠻矜持的啦那我在想說因為今天我們在講說雷神這個案子的時候那您之前也回答過就是很多委員就提到說因為我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣那我在想說因為我們軍售的時候美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費\n38172\t41055\t還有1.2%的那個合約管理服務費是不是這樣子?也是。是這樣子嗎?那除了3.2%的行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費還有沒有其他的費用?\n52658\t71450\t他那個計算的部分在發家書製作的時候會把相當多的因素放進去那基本上就是這兩個主要的一個收費嘛對不對額外收費的部分這兩個部分是主要針對專案管理就是未來為我們的軍售案做財務法律採購跟專案管理相關的\n72951\t97609\t我想說請教一下部長因為那個雷神這個部分因為有福報那坦白說我覺得美國政府主動發現這件事情然後主動查辦然後通知我們我倒覺得這個部分倒不是以美論我覺得反而這件事情我覺得反而要給美國政府某一個部分的肯定至少我角度是這樣子的那我在想說因為雷神這個福報這個軍購案的時候呢那我想問一下台灣到底被坑了多少錢\n99723\t118601\t跟委員報告我想美方在進行照會的時候有跟我們提供一個初步的金額但是我剛已經在機密報告已經報了那我想這些都還在司法調查程序進行當中那我想我們據台美之間的默契在司法程序還在進行當中我們就不以公開說明\n120082\t142451\t部長這部分我也尊重不過因為你在回應媒體的時候你有特別提到不當款項你會全數追討回來嗎我想請教這全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的部分還是所有之前跟雷神之前說的一個軍購案的部分都會重新去檢討然後把不當的部分討回來\n143791\t163425\t第一個當然是就現行美方所查出來的這個部分的金額,美方會跟我們恰上就是說將雷神追討回來以後還給我們,這是第一個。第二個其他案的部分呢美國現在已經也在逐一的清查,全面的清查當中。\n164125\t179933\t所以清查之前跟雷神的一個相關的一個軍售交易的部分嘛,對不對?對,應該是他全面性的清查了。所以不是只針對目前被揭露的部分而是全面性的清查嘛,對不對?對,美國政府的告知是如此。\n180273\t208019\tOK 那我想說這部分我想說我們國防部這邊立場的時候我就肯定還是要持續去follow後續的一個問題那我這邊延續的部分就是說因為美國政府竟然有收在軍售當中有收3.2%的一個行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費那我們對台軍售的部分他們對台軍售的部分不斷的延遲那這個部分我們是不是可以也要求他們能夠去加以\n209417\t234550\t把軍售的那部分時間把它給不要延後到那麼多至少這個221美金的部分19項的部分是不是可以把它給往前把它給弄好跟委員報告這個221或19項這應該跟實際的狀況是不符合的我想我們應該是依照我們跟美方簽訂的合約就是說發價數的內容來加以利利那所以真正延遲的部分應該\n235810\t261031\t這個部分我想說到時候您再給我一個書面一個資料因為在之前我們也關心過很多那我現在想要特別講的部分是因為在這段時間的時候中國武力威脅器不斷讓我們國防部的裝備去狂用錄製的一個產品七月份的時候國防部清查全軍158處所有24室使用錄製的一個產品包括四個案子是錄油器還有資料處理器\n261391\t271607\t然後八百多部的行車紀錄席都是那我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止大概有十個案子都是國防部\n273612\t288504\t一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續\n303576\t328752\t李電池也被認為是有影響知通訊安全的一個部分那針對這八個案子當的這十個案子裡面有八個案子都是中科院的那部長因為你本身是中科院的董事長那所以說我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別的去關注那針對這個部分我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過\n330236\t348135\t那麼在這個剛被揭露出來的部分竄改錄製電池的這部分他在寬頻那個通信機裡面標案在這裡面請部長去嚴厲去查到時候在整個驗收的時候務必不能夠被\n349957\t354698\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．\n373123\t401793\t還有一個部分是晶片標示模糊那這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分\n403031\t424494\t請孫副委員是不是檢調的回答一下?我們前面這八個案子只有一個案子進入檢調部長只有一個案子進入檢調而已其他幾個案子都是我們主動查出來然後移送的最後您剛剛提的這兩個案子目前正在進行驗收的程序我們會按照媒體爆料的內容嚴格的去查核只要有牽涉不法我們就一定按合約來辦\n424974\t451258\t所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收。因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部分還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好?針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好?\n452518\t474949\t對,中間剛回答了剛剛委員提到後面兩個案子因為還沒有進行驗收所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收好,謝謝部長那其他的案子之前處理得如何也請給本席一個書面回應因為到目前為止只有天空飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序好不好?是謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我想請一下顧部長有請顧部長\n部長好,已經超過1點鐘了那還有很多委員也等在質詢那國防部的同仁也都還在現場就是可以感覺到國防部還是蠻矜持的啦那我在想說因為今天我們在講說雷神這個案子的時候那您之前也回答過就是很多委員就提到說因為我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣那我在想說因為我們軍售的時候美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費\n還有1.2%的那個合約管理服務費是不是這樣子?也是。是這樣子嗎?那除了3.2%的行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費還有沒有其他的費用?\n他那個計算的部分在發家書製作的時候會把相當多的因素放進去那基本上就是這兩個主要的一個收費嘛對不對額外收費的部分這兩個部分是主要針對專案管理就是未來為我們的軍售案做財務法律採購跟專案管理相關的\n我想說請教一下部長因為那個雷神這個部分因為有福報那坦白說我覺得美國政府主動發現這件事情然後主動查辦然後通知我們我倒覺得這個部分倒不是以美論我覺得反而這件事情我覺得反而要給美國政府某一個部分的肯定至少我角度是這樣子的那我在想說因為雷神這個福報這個軍購案的時候呢那我想問一下台灣到底被坑了多少錢\n跟委員報告我想美方在進行照會的時候有跟我們提供一個初步的金額但是我剛已經在機密報告已經報了那我想這些都還在司法調查程序進行當中那我想我們據台美之間的默契在司法程序還在進行當中我們就不以公開說明\n部長這部分我也尊重不過因為你在回應媒體的時候你有特別提到不當款項你會全數追討回來嗎我想請教這全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的部分還是所有之前跟雷神之前說的一個軍購案的部分都會重新去檢討然後把不當的部分討回來\n第一個當然是就現行美方所查出來的這個部分的金額,美方會跟我們恰上就是說將雷神追討回來以後還給我們,這是第一個。第二個其他案的部分呢美國現在已經也在逐一的清查,全面的清查當中。\n所以清查之前跟雷神的一個相關的一個軍售交易的部分嘛,對不對?對,應該是他全面性的清查了。所以不是只針對目前被揭露的部分而是全面性的清查嘛,對不對?對,美國政府的告知是如此。\nOK 那我想說這部分我想說我們國防部這邊立場的時候我就肯定還是要持續去follow後續的一個問題那我這邊延續的部分就是說因為美國政府竟然有收在軍售當中有收3.2%的一個行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費那我們對台軍售的部分他們對台軍售的部分不斷的延遲那這個部分我們是不是可以也要求他們能夠去加以\n把軍售的那部分時間把它給不要延後到那麼多至少這個221美金的部分19項的部分是不是可以把它給往前把它給弄好跟委員報告這個221或19項這應該跟實際的狀況是不符合的我想我們應該是依照我們跟美方簽訂的合約就是說發價數的內容來加以利利那所以真正延遲的部分應該\n這個部分我想說到時候您再給我一個書面一個資料因為在之前我們也關心過很多那我現在想要特別講的部分是因為在這段時間的時候中國武力威脅器不斷讓我們國防部的裝備去狂用錄製的一個產品七月份的時候國防部清查全軍158處所有24室使用錄製的一個產品包括四個案子是錄油器還有資料處理器\n然後八百多部的行車紀錄席都是那我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止大概有十個案子都是國防部\n一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續\n李電池也被認為是有影響知通訊安全的一個部分那針對這八個案子當的這十個案子裡面有八個案子都是中科院的那部長因為你本身是中科院的董事長那所以說我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別的去關注那針對這個部分我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過\n那麼在這個剛被揭露出來的部分竄改錄製電池的這部分他在寬頻那個通信機裡面標案在這裡面請部長去嚴厲去查到時候在整個驗收的時候務必不能夠被\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．\n還有一個部分是晶片標示模糊那這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分\n請孫副委員是不是檢調的回答一下?我們前面這八個案子只有一個案子進入檢調部長只有一個案子進入檢調而已其他幾個案子都是我們主動查出來然後移送的最後您剛剛提的這兩個案子目前正在進行驗收的程序我們會按照媒體爆料的內容嚴格的去查核只要有牽涉不法我們就一定按合約來辦\n所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收。因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部分還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好?針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好?\n對,中間剛回答了剛剛委員提到後面兩個案子因為還沒有進行驗收所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收好,謝謝部長那其他的案子之前處理得如何也請給本席一個書面回應因為到目前為止只有天空飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序好不好?是謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.012 --> 00:02.175\n謝謝主席我想請一下顧部長有請顧部長\n\n00:11.993 --> 00:35.610\n部長好,已經超過1點鐘了那還有很多委員也等在質詢那國防部的同仁也都還在現場就是可以感覺到國防部還是蠻矜持的啦那我在想說因為今天我們在講說雷神這個案子的時候那您之前也回答過就是很多委員就提到說因為我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣那我在想說因為我們軍售的時候美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費\n\n00:38.172 --> 00:41.055\n還有1.2%的那個合約管理服務費是不是這樣子?也是。是這樣子嗎?那除了3.2%的行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費還有沒有其他的費用?\n\n00:52.658 --> 01:11.450\n他那個計算的部分在發家書製作的時候會把相當多的因素放進去那基本上就是這兩個主要的一個收費嘛對不對額外收費的部分這兩個部分是主要針對專案管理就是未來為我們的軍售案做財務法律採購跟專案管理相關的\n\n01:12.951 --> 01:37.609\n我想說請教一下部長因為那個雷神這個部分因為有福報那坦白說我覺得美國政府主動發現這件事情然後主動查辦然後通知我們我倒覺得這個部分倒不是以美論我覺得反而這件事情我覺得反而要給美國政府某一個部分的肯定至少我角度是這樣子的那我在想說因為雷神這個福報這個軍購案的時候呢那我想問一下台灣到底被坑了多少錢\n\n01:39.723 --> 01:58.601\n跟委員報告我想美方在進行照會的時候有跟我們提供一個初步的金額但是我剛已經在機密報告已經報了那我想這些都還在司法調查程序進行當中那我想我們據台美之間的默契在司法程序還在進行當中我們就不以公開說明\n\n02:00.082 --> 02:22.451\n部長這部分我也尊重不過因為你在回應媒體的時候你有特別提到不當款項你會全數追討回來嗎我想請教這全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的部分還是所有之前跟雷神之前說的一個軍購案的部分都會重新去檢討然後把不當的部分討回來\n\n02:23.791 --> 02:43.425\n第一個當然是就現行美方所查出來的這個部分的金額,美方會跟我們恰上就是說將雷神追討回來以後還給我們,這是第一個。第二個其他案的部分呢美國現在已經也在逐一的清查,全面的清查當中。\n\n02:44.125 --> 02:59.933\n所以清查之前跟雷神的一個相關的一個軍售交易的部分嘛,對不對?對,應該是他全面性的清查了。所以不是只針對目前被揭露的部分而是全面性的清查嘛,對不對?對,美國政府的告知是如此。\n\n03:00.273 --> 03:28.019\nOK那我想說這部分我想說我們國防部這邊立場的時候我就肯定還是要持續去follow後續的一個問題那我這邊延續的部分就是說因為美國政府竟然有收在軍售當中有收3.2%的一個行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費那我們對台軍售的部分他們對台軍售的部分不斷的延遲那這個部分我們是不是可以也要求他們能夠去加以\n\n03:29.417 --> 03:54.550\n把軍售的那部分時間把它給不要延後到那麼多至少這個221美金的部分19項的部分是不是可以把它給往前把它給弄好跟委員報告這個221或19項這應該跟實際的狀況是不符合的我想我們應該是依照我們跟美方簽訂的合約就是說發價數的內容來加以利利那所以真正延遲的部分應該\n\n03:55.810 --> 04:21.031\n這個部分我想說到時候您再給我一個書面一個資料因為在之前我們也關心過很多那我現在想要特別講的部分是因為在這段時間的時候中國武力威脅器不斷讓我們國防部的裝備去狂用錄製的一個產品七月份的時候國防部清查全軍158處所有24室使用錄製的一個產品包括四個案子是錄油器還有資料處理器\n\n04:21.391 --> 04:31.607\n然後八百多部的行車紀錄席都是那我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止大概有十個案子都是國防部\n\n04:33.612 --> 04:48.504\n一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續\n\n05:03.576 --> 05:28.752\n李電池也被認為是有影響知通訊安全的一個部分那針對這八個案子當的這十個案子裡面有八個案子都是中科院的那部長因為你本身是中科院的董事長那所以說我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別的去關注那針對這個部分我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過\n\n05:30.236 --> 05:48.135\n那麼在這個剛被揭露出來的部分竄改錄製電池的這部分他在寬頻那個通信機裡面標案在這裡面請部長去嚴厲去查到時候在整個驗收的時候務必不能夠被\n\n05:49.957 --> 05:54.698\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．\n\n06:13.123 --> 06:41.793\n還有一個部分是晶片標示模糊那這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分\n\n06:43.031 --> 07:04.494\n請孫副委員是不是檢調的回答一下?我們前面這八個案子只有一個案子進入檢調部長只有一個案子進入檢調而已其他幾個案子都是我們主動查出來然後移送的最後您剛剛提的這兩個案子目前正在進行驗收的程序我們會按照媒體爆料的內容嚴格的去查核只要有牽涉不法我們就一定按合約來辦\n\n07:04.974 --> 07:31.258\n所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收。因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部分還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好?針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好?\n\n07:32.518 --> 07:54.949\n對,中間剛回答了剛剛委員提到後面兩個案子因為還沒有進行驗收所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收好,謝謝部長那其他的案子之前處理得如何也請給本席一個書面回應因為到目前為止只有天空飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序好不好?是謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.012,"end":2.175,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下顧部長有請顧部長"},{"start":11.993,"end":35.61,"text":"部長好,已經超過1點鐘了那還有很多委員也等在質詢那國防部的同仁也都還在現場就是可以感覺到國防部還是蠻矜持的啦那我在想說因為今天我們在講說雷神這個案子的時候那您之前也回答過就是很多委員就提到說因為我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣那我在想說因為我們軍售的時候美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費"},{"start":38.172,"end":41.055,"text":"還有1.2%的那個合約管理服務費是不是這樣子?也是。是這樣子嗎?那除了3.2%的行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費還有沒有其他的費用?"},{"start":52.658,"end":71.45,"text":"他那個計算的部分在發家書製作的時候會把相當多的因素放進去那基本上就是這兩個主要的一個收費嘛對不對額外收費的部分這兩個部分是主要針對專案管理就是未來為我們的軍售案做財務法律採購跟專案管理相關的"},{"start":72.951,"end":97.609,"text":"我想說請教一下部長因為那個雷神這個部分因為有福報那坦白說我覺得美國政府主動發現這件事情然後主動查辦然後通知我們我倒覺得這個部分倒不是以美論我覺得反而這件事情我覺得反而要給美國政府某一個部分的肯定至少我角度是這樣子的那我在想說因為雷神這個福報這個軍購案的時候呢那我想問一下台灣到底被坑了多少錢"},{"start":99.723,"end":118.601,"text":"跟委員報告我想美方在進行照會的時候有跟我們提供一個初步的金額但是我剛已經在機密報告已經報了那我想這些都還在司法調查程序進行當中那我想我們據台美之間的默契在司法程序還在進行當中我們就不以公開說明"},{"start":120.082,"end":142.451,"text":"部長這部分我也尊重不過因為你在回應媒體的時候你有特別提到不當款項你會全數追討回來嗎我想請教這全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的部分還是所有之前跟雷神之前說的一個軍購案的部分都會重新去檢討然後把不當的部分討回來"},{"start":143.791,"end":163.425,"text":"第一個當然是就現行美方所查出來的這個部分的金額,美方會跟我們恰上就是說將雷神追討回來以後還給我們,這是第一個。第二個其他案的部分呢美國現在已經也在逐一的清查,全面的清查當中。"},{"start":164.125,"end":179.933,"text":"所以清查之前跟雷神的一個相關的一個軍售交易的部分嘛,對不對?對,應該是他全面性的清查了。所以不是只針對目前被揭露的部分而是全面性的清查嘛,對不對?對,美國政府的告知是如此。"},{"start":180.273,"end":208.019,"text":"OK 那我想說這部分我想說我們國防部這邊立場的時候我就肯定還是要持續去follow後續的一個問題那我這邊延續的部分就是說因為美國政府竟然有收在軍售當中有收3.2%的一個行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費那我們對台軍售的部分他們對台軍售的部分不斷的延遲那這個部分我們是不是可以也要求他們能夠去加以"},{"start":209.417,"end":234.55,"text":"把軍售的那部分時間把它給不要延後到那麼多至少這個221美金的部分19項的部分是不是可以把它給往前把它給弄好跟委員報告這個221或19項這應該跟實際的狀況是不符合的我想我們應該是依照我們跟美方簽訂的合約就是說發價數的內容來加以利利那所以真正延遲的部分應該"},{"start":235.81,"end":261.031,"text":"這個部分我想說到時候您再給我一個書面一個資料因為在之前我們也關心過很多那我現在想要特別講的部分是因為在這段時間的時候中國武力威脅器不斷讓我們國防部的裝備去狂用錄製的一個產品七月份的時候國防部清查全軍158處所有24室使用錄製的一個產品包括四個案子是錄油器還有資料處理器"},{"start":261.391,"end":271.607,"text":"然後八百多部的行車紀錄席都是那我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止大概有十個案子都是國防部"},{"start":273.612,"end":288.504,"text":"一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續"},{"start":303.576,"end":328.752,"text":"李電池也被認為是有影響知通訊安全的一個部分那針對這八個案子當的這十個案子裡面有八個案子都是中科院的那部長因為你本身是中科院的董事長那所以說我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別的去關注那針對這個部分我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過"},{"start":330.236,"end":348.135,"text":"那麼在這個剛被揭露出來的部分竄改錄製電池的這部分他在寬頻那個通信機裡面標案在這裡面請部長去嚴厲去查到時候在整個驗收的時候務必不能夠被"},{"start":349.957,"end":354.698,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．"},{"start":373.123,"end":401.793,"text":"還有一個部分是晶片標示模糊那這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分"},{"start":403.031,"end":424.494,"text":"請孫副委員是不是檢調的回答一下?我們前面這八個案子只有一個案子進入檢調部長只有一個案子進入檢調而已其他幾個案子都是我們主動查出來然後移送的最後您剛剛提的這兩個案子目前正在進行驗收的程序我們會按照媒體爆料的內容嚴格的去查核只要有牽涉不法我們就一定按合約來辦"},{"start":424.974,"end":451.258,"text":"所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收。因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部分還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好?針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好?"},{"start":452.518,"end":474.949,"text":"對,中間剛回答了剛剛委員提到後面兩個案子因為還沒有進行驗收所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收好,謝謝部長那其他的案子之前處理得如何也請給本席一個書面回應因為到目前為止只有天空飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序好不好?是謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:11:49 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13:19:44","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155213,"gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（13時11分）謝謝主席。我想請一下顧部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：是，鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。已經超過一點鐘了，那還有很多委員也等著質詢，國防部的同仁也都還在現場，可以感覺到國防部還是蠻精實的啦！因為今天我們在講雷神這個案子的時候，您之前也回答過很多委員就提到說，我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣，因為軍售的時候，美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費，還有1.2%的合約管理服務費，是不是這樣子？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，這樣子嘛！除了3.2%的行政費，還有1.2%的合約管理服務費，還有沒有其他的費用？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，那個計算的部分在發價書製作的時候會把相當多的因素放進去。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！基本上就是這兩個主要的收費嘛！對不對？額外收費部分。"],["黃司長文啓：這兩個部分是主要針對專案管理，就是針對未來為我們的軍售案做財務、法律、採購跟專案管理相關。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！好，我想請教一下部長，雷神這個部分因為有浮報，坦白說，美國政府主動發現這件事情，然後主動查辦、通知我們，我覺得這個部分倒不是疑美論，這件事情反而要給美國政府某部分的肯定，至少我的角度是這樣子的，因為雷神這個浮報的軍購案，我想問一下，臺灣到底被坑了多少錢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想美方在進行照會的時候，有跟我們提供一個初步的金額，但是我剛剛在機密會議時已經報了，我想這些都還在司法調查程序當中，我們基於臺美之間的默契，司法程序還在進行當中，我們就不予公開說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，這部分我也尊重，不過因為你在回應媒體的時候有特別提到不當款項會全數追討回來，我想請教這全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的，還是跟雷神之前所有軍購案都會重新去檢討，然後把不當的部分討回來？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，當然是就現行美方所查出來這個部分的金額，美方會跟我們洽商，向雷神追討回來以後還給我們，這是第一個。第二個，其他案的部分，美國現在也已經在逐一的清查、全面的清查當中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以在清查之前跟雷神相關軍售交易的部分嘛！對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：對，應該是它全面性的清查，不是只有針對……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以不是只針對目前被揭露的部分，而是全面性的清查，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：對，美國政府的告知是如此。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！我想這部分有關國防部這邊的立場，我就予以肯定，但還是要持續follow後續的問題。我這邊延續的部分是，因為美國政府既然在軍售當中有收3.2%的行政費，還有1.2%的合約管理服務費，他們對臺軍售的部分不斷的延遲，關於這個部分，我們是不是也可以要求他們能夠把軍售的時間不要延後到那麼多？至少220億美金、19項的部分，是不是可以往前把它弄好？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個220億或19項，這應該跟實際的狀況是不符合的。我們應該是依照跟美方簽訂的合約，就是發價書的內容來加以議定，所以真正延遲的部分是不是請……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分到時候你再給我一個書面資料，因為之前我們也關心過很多。我現在想要特別講的部分，是因為在這段時間，其實中國武力威脅不斷，但我們國防部的裝備卻狂用陸製的產品。7月份的時候，國防部清查全軍158個處所，有24處使用陸製的產品，包括4個案子是路由器，還有資料處理器，然後八百多部的行車紀錄器都是。我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止，大概有10個案子都是國防部的標案裡面有使用陸製品的部分，其中最近剛被爆出來的狀態，就是10月份剛被爆出來的就包括「高畫質數位影響微波傳輸設備」標案使用中國製造的晶片，在4個外購關鍵主機板當中各有一顆IC是中國製造、大陸製造的。另外有一個寬頻通信系統維護案當中，也是使用中國的電池，而中國鋰電池也被認為是有影響資通訊安全的部分。","針對這10個案子裡面，有8個案子都是中科院的，部長，因為你本身是中科院的董事長，所以我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別關注。我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的，因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過，在這個剛被揭露出來有關竄改陸製電池產地，它在寬頻通信機裡面，標案在這裡面，請部長嚴厲去查，到時候在整個驗收時，務必不能夠被暗渡陳倉進來，好不好？這很重要。","再接下來是竄改陸製IC產地，這個高畫質數位影響微波傳輸設備，標案在這個地方，裡面除了主機板陸製IC被洗產地了，本來是大陸製的被改成臺灣製的，然後還有一個部分是晶片標示模糊，我們希望部長這邊能夠加以查核。對於中科院這兩年多來，10個案子有8個案子都是中科院這邊的，我們希望部長是不是能夠加以特別關切？然後針對每一個案子，也給本席一個具體的回應，我們後續到底是怎麼處理？"],["顧部長立雄：請中科院簡要的回答。"],["李院長世強：委員，前面這8個案子……"],["鄭委員正鈐：只有1個案子進入檢調，部長，只有1個案子進入檢調而已。"],["李院長世強：其他幾個案子都是我們主動查出來然後移送的，最後您剛剛提的這兩個案子，目前正在進行驗收的程序，我們會按照媒體爆料的內容，嚴格的去查核，只要有牽涉不法，我們就一定按合約來辦。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以現在正在驗收，是不是？"],["李院長世強：上個禮拜交貨，但因為颱風，所以跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天，我們進行逐項驗收。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！因為這個部分，我在想裡面還有操作及模糊標示的部分，我們希望都能夠一一把它給挑出來，好不好？"],["李院長世強：沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對國家安全的部分，國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸，中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：對，中科院回答有關剛剛委員提到的兩個案子，因為還沒有進行驗收，所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！好，謝謝部長，其他的案子之前處理的如何，也請給本席一個書面回應，因為到目前為止，只有天弓飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員，請國防部也給鄭正鈐委員所需要的書面資料。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}