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275.303, \"end\": 275.423, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 275.423, \"end\": 276.384, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 276.384, \"end\": 276.564, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 276.564, \"end\": 276.904, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 276.904, \"end\": 277.304, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 277.304, \"end\": 278.164, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 278.164, \"end\": 278.444, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"售\", \"start\": 278.444, \"end\": 278.825, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 278.825, \"end\": 279.445, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 279.445, \"end\": 279.585, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 279.585, \"end\": 279.825, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"互\", \"start\": 279.825, \"end\": 280.165, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 280.165, \"end\": 280.385, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 280.385, \"end\": 280.605, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 280.605, \"end\": 280.745, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 280.745, \"end\": 280.905, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 280.905, \"end\": 281.025, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 281.025, \"end\": 281.186, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 281.186, \"end\": 281.506, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 281.506, \"end\": 281.986, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 281.986, \"end\": 282.086, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 282.086, \"end\": 282.106, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 282.106, \"end\": 282.346, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 282.346, \"end\": 282.466, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 282.466, \"end\": 282.566, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 282.566, \"end\": 282.766, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 282.766, \"end\": 282.926, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 282.926, \"end\": 283.166, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 283.166, \"end\": 283.246, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 283.246, \"end\": 283.366, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"雷\", \"start\": 283.366, \"end\": 283.527, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"神\", \"start\": 283.527, \"end\": 283.647, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 283.647, \"end\": 283.807, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 283.807, \"end\": 284.027, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 284.027, \"end\": 284.147, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 284.147, \"end\": 284.287, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 284.287, \"end\": 284.307, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"責\"}]}, {\"start\": 284.707, \"end\": 287.13, \"text\": \"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 284.707, \"end\": 284.727, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 284.727, \"end\": 284.887, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"火\", \"start\": 284.887, \"end\": 285.087, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 285.087, \"end\": 285.248, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"雷\", \"start\": 285.248, \"end\": 285.448, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"神\", \"start\": 285.448, \"end\": 285.568, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 285.568, \"end\": 285.628, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"售\", \"start\": 285.628, \"end\": 285.908, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 285.908, \"end\": 286.069, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 286.069, \"end\": 286.309, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 286.309, \"end\": 286.509, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 286.509, \"end\": 286.689, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 286.689, \"end\": 286.809, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 286.809, \"end\": 286.95, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 286.95, \"end\": 286.99, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 286.99, \"end\": 287.11, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 287.11, \"end\": 287.13, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}]}, {\"start\": 303.789, \"end\": 329.973, \"text\": \"那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 303.789, \"end\": 304.29, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 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324.768, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 324.768, \"end\": 324.948, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"白\", \"start\": 324.948, \"end\": 325.148, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 325.148, \"end\": 325.389, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 325.389, \"end\": 325.489, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"石\", \"start\": 325.489, \"end\": 325.669, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 325.669, \"end\": 326.47, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 326.47, \"end\": 326.89, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 326.89, \"end\": 327.15, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 327.15, \"end\": 327.43, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 327.43, \"end\": 327.771, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 327.771, \"end\": 327.991, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 327.991, \"end\": 328.271, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 328.271, \"end\": 328.391, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 328.391, \"end\": 328.772, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 328.772, \"end\": 329.012, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 329.012, \"end\": 329.152, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 329.152, \"end\": 329.292, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 329.292, \"end\": 329.372, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 329.372, \"end\": 329.753, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 329.753, \"end\": 329.953, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 329.953, \"end\": 329.973, \"score\": 0.886}]}, {\"start\": 330.293, \"end\": 341.856, \"text\": \"我想請教因為你剛剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 330.293, \"end\": 330.373, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 330.373, \"end\": 330.734, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 330.734, \"end\": 330.894, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 330.894, \"end\": 331.015, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 331.015, \"end\": 331.295, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 331.295, \"end\": 331.395, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 331.395, \"end\": 331.656, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 331.656, \"end\": 331.736, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"句\", \"start\": 331.736, \"end\": 331.876, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 331.876, \"end\": 332.317, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 332.317, \"end\": 333.239, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 333.239, \"end\": 333.539, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 333.539, \"end\": 333.82, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 333.82, \"end\": 333.92, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 333.92, \"end\": 333.98, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 333.98, \"end\": 334.161, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 334.161, \"end\": 334.441, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 334.441, \"end\": 334.662, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 334.662, \"end\": 335.303, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 335.303, \"end\": 335.503, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"雷\", \"start\": 335.503, \"end\": 335.744, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"神\", \"start\": 335.744, \"end\": 336.084, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 336.084, \"end\": 336.245, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 336.245, \"end\": 336.425, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 336.425, \"end\": 337.106, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,510 --> 00:00:01,092\n請我們顧部長請顧部長部長好\n\n2\n00:00:09,149 --> 00:00:35,379\n部長本期還是關心雷神這個案件其實跟很多委員都一樣我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代的時候也有這樣的一個狀況2017年蔡政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況但是國家是一體的不管是誰執政重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血和錢也都是國民的納稅錢\n\n3\n00:00:36,539 --> 00:00:54,531\n那有被福報或者是說被這個中間有人上下其手的地方如果說不是我們這樣退一萬步想如果說不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告是不是到目前為止此時刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或者是揭發這樣的一個訊息\n\n4\n00:00:56,532 --> 00:00:58,854\n部長,就您這樣子講的意思是今天被\n\n5\n00:01:20,652 --> 00:01:37,890\n有人從這中間上下起手是美方的責任了,美方集合不夠及時,不然從2013年,我們就2013年到現在10年了,所以換言之,因為本時我怎麼知道2013是您在媒體,你跟媒體講的嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:39,147 --> 00:02:05,189\n就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況那我們到2014年10年後我們才知道那換言之這個責任是美方的集合不夠及時快速詳細我想就這個年的部分我想我就不宜在這邊再再度說明因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明美方的告知的內容到現在為止呢\n\n7\n00:02:05,709 --> 00:02:09,593\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n8\n00:02:22,666 --> 00:02:25,868\n現在也沒有辦法告訴,他也不是機密,是你也不清楚。是不是?\n\n9\n00:02:25,868 --> 00:02:46,140\n是機密你就不用講,但是我現在只要確認一下。美方有告訴我們相關現在的一個進度,我剛才機密專報裡面也有講了。是。那所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段,那但是他什麼時候會完成然後做完整份的報告,那我想這個部分還要等美方通知,我們也會跟美方密切的來協調聯繫。好。\n\n10\n00:02:48,081 --> 00:02:58,540\n但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年所以說可能他的案情這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年來都有牽涉\n\n11\n00:03:02,304 --> 00:03:26,332\n我想能夠講的就是說主要涉及兩個案件那這個兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細的說明但是他的這個啟動調查之後所發現的這個哪一年他有告知我們那我大概就是轉資美方的告知內容那詳細的情況還要等美方的完整的調查報告\n\n12\n00:03:26,932 --> 00:03:53,411\n是啊,您講的因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛好,那拉回來啦我覺得防範未然事情也發生了那重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊我們也還是要軍售我們還是要購買武器但我沒有希望是說我們購買是我們需要的武器我們也希望美方可以給我們我們需要的武器那您是不是有提到\n\n13\n00:03:54,312 --> 00:04:22,238\n其實就這個溢價能力或空間來講有沒有辦法適時的參考過去的歷史價格或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的一個價格來去做我們談判的籌碼這點有可能做得到嗎我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美方的報告出來之後我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討\n\n14\n00:04:23,098 --> 00:04:44,307\n美方的報告出來我們一定要跟他做檢討因為美國政府也受害那美國政府都受害那美國政府當然要大大清楚那我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼這是第一個那第二個就是說我剛剛已經講過了我們對於軍售他跟我們互完全的法律上的責任所以美國政府要對我們負責不是雷神公司對我們要負責\n\n15\n00:04:44,707 --> 00:04:47,130\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n16\n00:05:03,789 --> 00:05:29,973\n那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流\n\n17\n00:05:30,293 --> 00:05:41,856\n我想請教因為你剛剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底\n\n18\n00:05:42,867 --> 00:06:03,689\n那換言之是美方要帶我們向雷神球場還是我們先跟美方球場美方先電給我們然後他再跟雷神球場跟委員報告美方已經承諾會跟我們跟像這個帶位球場跟雷神球場會跟雷神球場因為合約跟委員還是報告是合約\n\n19\n00:06:04,670 --> 00:06:06,231\n美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n20\n00:06:20,761 --> 00:06:40,589\n美國政府自己本身那他要要回來這部分我們的部分屬於這其中的一部分那美國政府會跟他要回來之後然後還給我部長那我最後啊因為你也是法律人啊我只想請教一個實務上的問題如果說美方跟這個雷神公司我不知道說後續他們會不會有官司什麼要打\n\n21\n00:06:41,449 --> 00:07:03,344\n如果說他們這個時間是要延宕了他沒有在第一時間馬上能有辦法來就做這個球場甚至雷神公司他們可能也會有他們自己的一個說法那我們是不是都要等整個官司完畢之後我們才有可能分拿回我們應拿的部分我剛剛在經濟新聞報已經說明美方告知我們的進度了\n\n22\n00:07:03,544 --> 00:07:24,111\n所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的做法以及我們的權利應該怎麼樣能夠捍衛的地方是不是是我剛在機密專報我想如果為那個相關的這個國防外交沒關係機密就機密我沒有要我沒有要了解意思我只是說要確認一下說這樣的一個後續是不是有我們都有掌握\n\n23\n00:07:24,511 --> 00:07:39,460\n我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫該用則用該審則審啊我想這是一定的一致的態度美國政府有跟我們保持一個密切的聯繫有充分的告知現在進行的狀況好謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n510\t1092\t請我們顧部長請顧部長部長好\n9149\t35379\t部長本期還是關心雷神這個案件其實跟很多委員都一樣我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代的時候也有這樣的一個狀況2017年蔡政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況但是國家是一體的不管是誰執政重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血和錢也都是國民的納稅錢\n36539\t54531\t那有被福報或者是說被這個中間有人上下其手的地方如果說不是我們這樣退一萬步想如果說不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告是不是到目前為止此時刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或者是揭發這樣的一個訊息\n56532\t58854\t部長,就您這樣子講的意思是今天被\n80652\t97890\t有人從這中間上下起手是美方的責任了,美方集合不夠及時,不然從2013年,我們就2013年到現在10年了,所以換言之,因為本時我怎麼知道2013是您在媒體,你跟媒體講的嗎?\n99147\t125189\t就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況那我們到2014年10年後我們才知道那換言之這個責任是美方的集合不夠及時快速詳細我想就這個年的部分我想我就不宜在這邊再再度說明因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明美方的告知的內容到現在為止呢\n125709\t129593\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n142666\t145868\t現在也沒有辦法告訴,他也不是機密,是你也不清楚。是不是?\n145868\t166140\t是機密你就不用講,但是我現在只要確認一下。美方有告訴我們相關現在的一個進度,我剛才機密專報裡面也有講了。是。那所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段,那但是他什麼時候會完成然後做完整份的報告,那我想這個部分還要等美方通知,我們也會跟美方密切的來協調聯繫。好。\n168081\t178540\t但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年所以說可能他的案情這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年來都有牽涉\n182304\t206332\t我想能夠講的就是說主要涉及兩個案件那這個兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細的說明但是他的這個啟動調查之後所發現的這個哪一年他有告知我們那我大概就是轉資美方的告知內容那詳細的情況還要等美方的完整的調查報告\n206932\t233411\t是啊,您講的因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛好,那拉回來啦我覺得防範未然事情也發生了那重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊我們也還是要軍售我們還是要購買武器但我沒有希望是說我們購買是我們需要的武器我們也希望美方可以給我們我們需要的武器那您是不是有提到\n234312\t262238\t其實就這個溢價能力或空間來講有沒有辦法適時的參考過去的歷史價格或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的一個價格來去做我們談判的籌碼這點有可能做得到嗎我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美方的報告出來之後我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討\n263098\t284307\t美方的報告出來我們一定要跟他做檢討因為美國政府也受害那美國政府都受害那美國政府當然要大大清楚那我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼這是第一個那第二個就是說我剛剛已經講過了我們對於軍售他跟我們互完全的法律上的責任所以美國政府要對我們負責不是雷神公司對我們要負責\n284707\t287130\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n303789\t329973\t那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流\n330293\t341856\t我想請教因為你剛剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底\n342867\t363689\t那換言之是美方要帶我們向雷神球場還是我們先跟美方球場美方先電給我們然後他再跟雷神球場跟委員報告美方已經承諾會跟我們跟像這個帶位球場跟雷神球場會跟雷神球場因為合約跟委員還是報告是合約\n364670\t366231\t美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n380761\t400589\t美國政府自己本身那他要要回來這部分我們的部分屬於這其中的一部分那美國政府會跟他要回來之後然後還給我部長那我最後啊因為你也是法律人啊我只想請教一個實務上的問題如果說美方跟這個雷神公司我不知道說後續他們會不會有官司什麼要打\n401449\t423344\t如果說他們這個時間是要延宕了他沒有在第一時間馬上能有辦法來就做這個球場甚至雷神公司他們可能也會有他們自己的一個說法那我們是不是都要等整個官司完畢之後我們才有可能分拿回我們應拿的部分我剛剛在經濟新聞報已經說明美方告知我們的進度了\n423544\t444111\t所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的做法以及我們的權利應該怎麼樣能夠捍衛的地方 是不是 是我剛在機密專報我想如果為那個相關的這個國防外交沒關係機密就機密我沒有要我沒有要了解意思我只是說要確認一下說這樣的一個後續是不是有我們都有掌握\n444511\t459460\t我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫該用則用該審則審啊我想這是一定的一致的態度美國政府有跟我們保持一個密切的聯繫有充分的告知現在進行的狀況好 謝謝部長好 謝謝\n","txt":"請我們顧部長請顧部長部長好\n部長本期還是關心雷神這個案件其實跟很多委員都一樣我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代的時候也有這樣的一個狀況2017年蔡政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況但是國家是一體的不管是誰執政重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血和錢也都是國民的納稅錢\n那有被福報或者是說被這個中間有人上下其手的地方如果說不是我們這樣退一萬步想如果說不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告是不是到目前為止此時刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或者是揭發這樣的一個訊息\n部長,就您這樣子講的意思是今天被\n有人從這中間上下起手是美方的責任了,美方集合不夠及時,不然從2013年,我們就2013年到現在10年了,所以換言之,因為本時我怎麼知道2013是您在媒體,你跟媒體講的嗎?\n就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況那我們到2014年10年後我們才知道那換言之這個責任是美方的集合不夠及時快速詳細我想就這個年的部分我想我就不宜在這邊再再度說明因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明美方的告知的內容到現在為止呢\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n現在也沒有辦法告訴,他也不是機密,是你也不清楚。是不是?\n是機密你就不用講,但是我現在只要確認一下。美方有告訴我們相關現在的一個進度,我剛才機密專報裡面也有講了。是。那所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段,那但是他什麼時候會完成然後做完整份的報告,那我想這個部分還要等美方通知,我們也會跟美方密切的來協調聯繫。好。\n但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年所以說可能他的案情這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年來都有牽涉\n我想能夠講的就是說主要涉及兩個案件那這個兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細的說明但是他的這個啟動調查之後所發現的這個哪一年他有告知我們那我大概就是轉資美方的告知內容那詳細的情況還要等美方的完整的調查報告\n是啊,您講的因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛好,那拉回來啦我覺得防範未然事情也發生了那重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊我們也還是要軍售我們還是要購買武器但我沒有希望是說我們購買是我們需要的武器我們也希望美方可以給我們我們需要的武器那您是不是有提到\n其實就這個溢價能力或空間來講有沒有辦法適時的參考過去的歷史價格或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的一個價格來去做我們談判的籌碼這點有可能做得到嗎我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美方的報告出來之後我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討\n美方的報告出來我們一定要跟他做檢討因為美國政府也受害那美國政府都受害那美國政府當然要大大清楚那我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼這是第一個那第二個就是說我剛剛已經講過了我們對於軍售他跟我們互完全的法律上的責任所以美國政府要對我們負責不是雷神公司對我們要負責\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流\n我想請教因為你剛剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底\n那換言之是美方要帶我們向雷神球場還是我們先跟美方球場美方先電給我們然後他再跟雷神球場跟委員報告美方已經承諾會跟我們跟像這個帶位球場跟雷神球場會跟雷神球場因為合約跟委員還是報告是合約\n美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n美國政府自己本身那他要要回來這部分我們的部分屬於這其中的一部分那美國政府會跟他要回來之後然後還給我部長那我最後啊因為你也是法律人啊我只想請教一個實務上的問題如果說美方跟這個雷神公司我不知道說後續他們會不會有官司什麼要打\n如果說他們這個時間是要延宕了他沒有在第一時間馬上能有辦法來就做這個球場甚至雷神公司他們可能也會有他們自己的一個說法那我們是不是都要等整個官司完畢之後我們才有可能分拿回我們應拿的部分我剛剛在經濟新聞報已經說明美方告知我們的進度了\n所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的做法以及我們的權利應該怎麼樣能夠捍衛的地方 是不是 是我剛在機密專報我想如果為那個相關的這個國防外交沒關係機密就機密我沒有要我沒有要了解意思我只是說要確認一下說這樣的一個後續是不是有我們都有掌握\n我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫該用則用該審則審啊我想這是一定的一致的態度美國政府有跟我們保持一個密切的聯繫有充分的告知現在進行的狀況好 謝謝部長好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.510 --> 00:01.092\n請我們顧部長請顧部長部長好\n\n00:09.149 --> 00:35.379\n部長本期還是關心雷神這個案件其實跟很多委員都一樣我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代的時候也有這樣的一個狀況2017年蔡政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況但是國家是一體的不管是誰執政重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血和錢也都是國民的納稅錢\n\n00:36.539 --> 00:54.531\n那有被福報或者是說被這個中間有人上下其手的地方如果說不是我們這樣退一萬步想如果說不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告是不是到目前為止此時刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或者是揭發這樣的一個訊息\n\n00:56.532 --> 00:58.854\n部長,就您這樣子講的意思是今天被\n\n01:20.652 --> 01:37.890\n有人從這中間上下起手是美方的責任了,美方集合不夠及時,不然從2013年,我們就2013年到現在10年了,所以換言之,因為本時我怎麼知道2013是您在媒體,你跟媒體講的嗎?\n\n01:39.147 --> 02:05.189\n就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況那我們到2014年10年後我們才知道那換言之這個責任是美方的集合不夠及時快速詳細我想就這個年的部分我想我就不宜在這邊再再度說明因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明美方的告知的內容到現在為止呢\n\n02:05.709 --> 02:09.593\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n02:22.666 --> 02:25.868\n現在也沒有辦法告訴,他也不是機密,是你也不清楚。是不是?\n\n02:25.868 --> 02:46.140\n是機密你就不用講,但是我現在只要確認一下。美方有告訴我們相關現在的一個進度,我剛才機密專報裡面也有講了。是。那所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段,那但是他什麼時候會完成然後做完整份的報告,那我想這個部分還要等美方通知,我們也會跟美方密切的來協調聯繫。好。\n\n02:48.081 --> 02:58.540\n但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年所以說可能他的案情這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年來都有牽涉\n\n03:02.304 --> 03:26.332\n我想能夠講的就是說主要涉及兩個案件那這個兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細的說明但是他的這個啟動調查之後所發現的這個哪一年他有告知我們那我大概就是轉資美方的告知內容那詳細的情況還要等美方的完整的調查報告\n\n03:26.932 --> 03:53.411\n是啊,您講的因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛好,那拉回來啦我覺得防範未然事情也發生了那重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊我們也還是要軍售我們還是要購買武器但我沒有希望是說我們購買是我們需要的武器我們也希望美方可以給我們我們需要的武器那您是不是有提到\n\n03:54.312 --> 04:22.238\n其實就這個溢價能力或空間來講有沒有辦法適時的參考過去的歷史價格或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的一個價格來去做我們談判的籌碼這點有可能做得到嗎我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美方的報告出來之後我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討\n\n04:23.098 --> 04:44.307\n美方的報告出來我們一定要跟他做檢討因為美國政府也受害那美國政府都受害那美國政府當然要大大清楚那我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼這是第一個那第二個就是說我剛剛已經講過了我們對於軍售他跟我們互完全的法律上的責任所以美國政府要對我們負責不是雷神公司對我們要負責\n\n04:44.707 --> 04:47.130\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n05:03.789 --> 05:29.973\n那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流\n\n05:30.293 --> 05:41.856\n我想請教因為你剛剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底\n\n05:42.867 --> 06:03.689\n那換言之是美方要帶我們向雷神球場還是我們先跟美方球場美方先電給我們然後他再跟雷神球場跟委員報告美方已經承諾會跟我們跟像這個帶位球場跟雷神球場會跟雷神球場因為合約跟委員還是報告是合約\n\n06:04.670 --> 06:06.231\n美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n06:20.761 --> 06:40.589\n美國政府自己本身那他要要回來這部分我們的部分屬於這其中的一部分那美國政府會跟他要回來之後然後還給我部長那我最後啊因為你也是法律人啊我只想請教一個實務上的問題如果說美方跟這個雷神公司我不知道說後續他們會不會有官司什麼要打\n\n06:41.449 --> 07:03.344\n如果說他們這個時間是要延宕了他沒有在第一時間馬上能有辦法來就做這個球場甚至雷神公司他們可能也會有他們自己的一個說法那我們是不是都要等整個官司完畢之後我們才有可能分拿回我們應拿的部分我剛剛在經濟新聞報已經說明美方告知我們的進度了\n\n07:03.544 --> 07:24.111\n所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的做法以及我們的權利應該怎麼樣能夠捍衛的地方是不是是我剛在機密專報我想如果為那個相關的這個國防外交沒關係機密就機密我沒有要我沒有要了解意思我只是說要確認一下說這樣的一個後續是不是有我們都有掌握\n\n07:24.511 --> 07:39.460\n我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫該用則用該審則審啊我想這是一定的一致的態度美國政府有跟我們保持一個密切的聯繫有充分的告知現在進行的狀況好謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.51,"end":1.092,"text":"請我們顧部長請顧部長部長好"},{"start":9.149,"end":35.379,"text":"部長本期還是關心雷神這個案件其實跟很多委員都一樣我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代的時候也有這樣的一個狀況2017年蔡政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況但是國家是一體的不管是誰執政重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血和錢也都是國民的納稅錢"},{"start":36.539,"end":54.531,"text":"那有被福報或者是說被這個中間有人上下其手的地方如果說不是我們這樣退一萬步想如果說不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告是不是到目前為止此時刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或者是揭發這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":56.532,"end":58.854,"text":"部長,就您這樣子講的意思是今天被"},{"start":80.652,"end":97.89,"text":"有人從這中間上下起手是美方的責任了,美方集合不夠及時,不然從2013年,我們就2013年到現在10年了,所以換言之,因為本時我怎麼知道2013是您在媒體,你跟媒體講的嗎?"},{"start":99.147,"end":125.189,"text":"就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況那我們到2014年10年後我們才知道那換言之這個責任是美方的集合不夠及時快速詳細我想就這個年的部分我想我就不宜在這邊再再度說明因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明美方的告知的內容到現在為止呢"},{"start":125.709,"end":129.593,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":142.666,"end":145.868,"text":"現在也沒有辦法告訴,他也不是機密,是你也不清楚。是不是?"},{"start":145.868,"end":166.14,"text":"是機密你就不用講,但是我現在只要確認一下。美方有告訴我們相關現在的一個進度,我剛才機密專報裡面也有講了。是。那所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段,那但是他什麼時候會完成然後做完整份的報告,那我想這個部分還要等美方通知,我們也會跟美方密切的來協調聯繫。好。"},{"start":168.081,"end":178.54,"text":"但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年所以說可能他的案情這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年來都有牽涉"},{"start":182.304,"end":206.332,"text":"我想能夠講的就是說主要涉及兩個案件那這個兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細的說明但是他的這個啟動調查之後所發現的這個哪一年他有告知我們那我大概就是轉資美方的告知內容那詳細的情況還要等美方的完整的調查報告"},{"start":206.932,"end":233.411,"text":"是啊,您講的因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛好,那拉回來啦我覺得防範未然事情也發生了那重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊我們也還是要軍售我們還是要購買武器但我沒有希望是說我們購買是我們需要的武器我們也希望美方可以給我們我們需要的武器那您是不是有提到"},{"start":234.312,"end":262.238,"text":"其實就這個溢價能力或空間來講有沒有辦法適時的參考過去的歷史價格或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的一個價格來去做我們談判的籌碼這點有可能做得到嗎我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美方的報告出來之後我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討"},{"start":263.098,"end":284.307,"text":"美方的報告出來我們一定要跟他做檢討因為美國政府也受害那美國政府都受害那美國政府當然要大大清楚那我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼這是第一個那第二個就是說我剛剛已經講過了我們對於軍售他跟我們互完全的法律上的責任所以美國政府要對我們負責不是雷神公司對我們要負責"},{"start":284.707,"end":287.13,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":303.789,"end":329.973,"text":"那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流"},{"start":330.293,"end":341.856,"text":"我想請教因為你剛剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底"},{"start":342.867,"end":363.689,"text":"那換言之是美方要帶我們向雷神球場還是我們先跟美方球場美方先電給我們然後他再跟雷神球場跟委員報告美方已經承諾會跟我們跟像這個帶位球場跟雷神球場會跟雷神球場因為合約跟委員還是報告是合約"},{"start":364.67,"end":366.231,"text":"美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":380.761,"end":400.589,"text":"美國政府自己本身那他要要回來這部分我們的部分屬於這其中的一部分那美國政府會跟他要回來之後然後還給我部長那我最後啊因為你也是法律人啊我只想請教一個實務上的問題如果說美方跟這個雷神公司我不知道說後續他們會不會有官司什麼要打"},{"start":401.449,"end":423.344,"text":"如果說他們這個時間是要延宕了他沒有在第一時間馬上能有辦法來就做這個球場甚至雷神公司他們可能也會有他們自己的一個說法那我們是不是都要等整個官司完畢之後我們才有可能分拿回我們應拿的部分我剛剛在經濟新聞報已經說明美方告知我們的進度了"},{"start":423.544,"end":444.111,"text":"所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的做法以及我們的權利應該怎麼樣能夠捍衛的地方 是不是 是我剛在機密專報我想如果為那個相關的這個國防外交沒關係機密就機密我沒有要我沒有要了解意思我只是說要確認一下說這樣的一個後續是不是有我們都有掌握"},{"start":444.511,"end":459.46,"text":"我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫該用則用該審則審啊我想這是一定的一致的態度美國政府有跟我們保持一個密切的聯繫有充分的告知現在進行的狀況好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:20:14 - 13:27:55","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155216,"gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時20分）主席，謝謝，麻煩再請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席還是關心雷神這個案件，其實跟很多委員都一樣，我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛，即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代也有這樣的狀況，2017年蔡政府時代也有這樣的狀況，但是國家是一體的，不管是誰執政，重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血汗錢，也都是國民的納稅錢，有被浮報或是中間有人上下其手的地方，我們退一萬步想，如果不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告，是不是到目前為止，此時此刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或是揭發這樣的訊息？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們不是直接跟雷神公司簽約，這個部分我們是跟美國政府簽約，所以美國政府有一個完全的法律上的責任，它要進行相關的稽核，所以美國政府才有辦法，就這個合約面來看的話，只有它能夠直接對雷神公司來進行稽核。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，就您這樣講的意思是，今天有人從這中間上下其手是美方的責任？美方稽核不夠即時？不然從2013年到現在已經10年，本席為什麼會知道2013年，是您跟媒體講的嘛，就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況，我們到2024年、10年後我們才知道，換言之，這個責任是美方的稽核不夠即時、快速、詳細？"],["顧部長立雄：我想就這個年的部分，我就不宜在這邊再度說明，因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明，美方告知的內容到現在為止也還沒有全盤的詳情，所以我們還是等待美方的整個調查報告完畢之後，才能夠對外做整個完整的說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：美方的調查報告什麼時候會完畢？"],["顧部長立雄：現在沒有辦法告訴我們一個確切的期間。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在沒有辦法告訴，它也不是機密，是你也不清楚，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：不是，美方有告訴……"],["洪委員孟楷：是機密你就不用講，但是我現在只是要確認一下。"],["顧部長立雄：美方有告訴我們現在相關的進度，我剛才在機密專報裡面也有講了，所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段，但是它什麼時候會完成然後做完整份報告，我想這個部分還要等美方通知，我們也會跟美方密切地來協調聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年，所以可能這個案情、這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年，都有牽涉。"],["顧部長立雄：我想能夠講的就是主要涉及兩個案件，這兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細地說明，但是它啟動調查之後所發現的哪一年，它有告知我們，我大概就是轉知美方的告知內容，詳細的情況還要等美方的完整調查報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛。","好，拉回來啦，我覺得要防範未然，事情也發生了，重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊，我們也還是要軍售、我們還是要購買武器，但我們希望購買的是我們需要的武器，也希望美方可以給我們需要的武器。您是不是有提到其實就議價能力或空間來講，有沒有辦法適時地參考過去的歷史價格，或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的價格作為我們談判的籌碼，這點有可能做得到嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點，第一點就是，美方的報告出來之後，我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方，為何美國政府……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討？"],["顧部長立雄：美方的報告出來，我們一定要跟它做檢討，因為美國政府也受害嘛，美國政府都受害，那美國政府當然要調查清楚，我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼，這是第一個；第二個，我剛剛已經講過了，對於軍售，它對我們負完全的法律上的責任，所以美國政府要對我們負責，不是雷神公司要對我們負責。我們跟美方來共同加強之後，再來看看我們國防部這邊對於在採購類似這樣的軍售案時有什麼部分可以加強，包括查閱國內外的歷史價格等等部分，來跟美方一起做研討這些部分價格的合理性。所以我的意思就是美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的說明，就是問題出在什麼地方，因為它畢竟經過好幾層的分析，然後還有好幾層的稽核。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是整個案情會釐清，真相大白、水落石出。"],["顧部長立雄：這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想請教，因為你剛剛特別講一句就是美方對我們負責，雷神對美方負責，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：您也提到該求償的，我們一定追償到底，換言之，是美方要代我們向雷神求償，還是我們先跟美方求償，美方先墊給我們，然後它再跟雷神求償？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，美方已經承諾會向這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：代位求償？"],["顧部長立雄：跟雷神求償，會跟雷神求償，還是跟委員報告，不是代位求償，因為我合約是跟美方、美國政府簽的，而美國政府是跟雷神簽的，所以要美國政府去跟雷神要回來，不只是要我們的這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：它可能還有其他的軍售嘛，可能其他國家的。"],["顧部長立雄：還有其他的國家，還有包括美國政府自己本身，它要要回來這些部分，我們的部分屬於這其中的一部分，美國政府會跟它要回來之後，然後返還給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，因為你也是法律人，我只想請教一個實務上的問題，如果說美方跟雷神公司，我不知道後續他們會不會有什麼官司要打，如果他們時間上延宕了，沒有在第一時間馬上有辦法來做這個求償，甚至雷神公司可能也會有他們自己的說法，我們是不是要等整個官司完畢之後，才有可能拿回我們應拿的部分？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛在機密專報已經說明美方有告知我們進度了。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的作法，以及我們的權利應該能夠怎麼樣捍衛，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我剛剛在機密專報……我想如果相關國防外交……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，機密就機密，我沒有要了解的意思，我只是要確認一下後續部分我們是不是都有掌握？我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫，該用則用、該省則省，我想這是一致的態度，好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，美國政府有跟我們保持密切聯繫，有充分地告知現在進行的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請張啓楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}