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--> 00:00:05,685\n謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。請顧部長。我們的軍購軍援出了問題,有沒有啊?政府、國防部有解嗎?因為在媒體報導當中,這一次的美國軍火商\n\n2\n00:00:24,884 --> 00:00:44,160\n雷神公司他說他惡意提高了對外軍售價格造成我方的損失你在受訪的當時你說這一次是美方主動調查並告知美國軍售制度有防弊\n\n3\n00:00:44,901 --> 00:01:06,477\n的措施該案進入相關的司法程序那會將被高估的不動款項返回退回給台灣有沒有這回事啊全民都在等欸真的嗎那如果是真的會退回來多少那美國有防備的措施我台灣有沒有請做說明\n\n4\n00:01:08,202 --> 00:01:08,222\n是!\n\n5\n00:01:35,690 --> 00:01:47,597\n這是民眾大家看到這個訊息都嚇一跳所以在這邊請教也要謝謝美方通知我們那請教因為他們有防備機制我們有沒有我們有沒有\n\n6\n00:01:48,585 --> 00:02:09,433\n跟委員報告,我剛剛都一再地回覆就是說因為我們是跟美國政府簽約的那美國政府要對我們負完全的責任所以美國是美國去跟雷神公司簽的不是我們跟雷神公司簽的所以我們現在的困難是我們沒有辦法去直接\n\n7\n00:02:10,633 --> 00:02:31,568\n對,雷神公司。我們是跟美國政府。來,來,來。就是合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府。聽到你真實的回答,那我要請教部長,這是常態還是少數的案例?您說發生這個惡意?對,類似到這樣子。如果美國不告知,那我們也不知道。\n\n8\n00:02:33,009 --> 00:02:44,736\n這是極為罕見的一個案例還好你回答這樣子是極為罕見那當然您剛才也說了美國政府要負全責是嗎\n\n9\n00:02:46,201 --> 00:03:03,401\n美國政府會就因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府嘛所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的這個責任包括不管是在法律上這個集合的專案的集合上面那等等這些都要負由他來負責任\n\n10\n00:03:05,149 --> 00:03:32,447\n這是目前國防部給人民的一個回應接下來本席要請問也就是軍購除了這一次的問題之外現在坊間大家都認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是研製所以在這樣的情況之下不管是這一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷這一些都有研製的問題是嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:59,233\n我想還是站櫃師簡單跟委員報告好請做說明報告委員跟委員報告我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後目前只剩下年底交運的托二V跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F16VBlock擺動這三個軍購案目前仍在延長其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度\n\n12\n00:04:00,254 --> 00:04:15,107\n其他慢慢跟上進度那三個延宕的部分我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢?怎麼談判呢?結果如何?剛剛講托世B的2B的這個部分我們希望在年底以前可以交互\n\n13\n00:04:15,948 --> 00:04:43,527\n因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試現在已經通過測試了所以我想今年的第4季我們希望能夠全數交裝那F16V這個拐動的這個部分我們希望第4季的第一架機能夠出來以後我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢這是我們跟美方的要求我們跟他們的要求另外一項\n\n14\n00:04:44,414 --> 00:04:45,935\n你所謂的競速,我們要延後多久可以給我們?\n\n15\n00:05:07,726 --> 00:05:09,308\n在原則上就在115年的\n\n16\n00:05:25,461 --> 00:05:50,860\n什麼時候交第一批年底之前年底之前來交第一批本期之所以提問也就是不希望民眾他對我們的政府有這麼多這麼多的問號提出之後要說明清楚讓民眾還是對國家有信心這是非常的重要因為我們在之前看到國防部的監察長那麼他們公佈報告他說去年部長\n\n17\n00:05:51,621 --> 00:06:19,240\n他說去年的12月收到美國依照總統撥款權提供的軍備出現了彈藥過期包裝混亂無法使用甚至防彈背心照出來的這個圖片是潮濕發霉的連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉\n\n18\n00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:20,881\n那一小部分你這做怎麼處置呢?\n\n19\n00:07:09,923 --> 00:07:10,423\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n\n20\n00:07:38,029 --> 00:07:50,984\n所以外界對於整個就是說他去過度的去強調那小篇文物但是我們現在不是在推脫啦我們覺得既然有這樣子的一個\n\n21\n00:07:53,226 --> 00:08:21,072\n教育的過程有發生這一狀況我們是跟美化有積極交涉所以第二批的PTA美國的拜登總統已經剛宣布嘛也是5.67億這都是無償的軍演那這樣應該是高達新台幣差不多將近10億3.65加5.67十億就兩匹加起來近乎十億多這樣子第二批的部分我想一定他已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們這樣子\n\n22\n00:08:22,865 --> 00:08:49,980\n部長談論到這裡最重要的就是最後這一句話而不是他交的品項很多很多元項目多數量多所以少部分如此我覺得我們不應該用這個來推動我承認我接受委員的意見就是說不管是怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視那所以第二次的PDA就是剛剛宣布了5.67億的部分我想一定會大家雙方好好的\n\n23\n00:08:50,740 --> 00:09:18,715\n所以因此我們在國際關係裡頭我想國家的這個互動都應該秉持的平等互惠的這個原則我們中華民國在整個產業科技文化這些軟實力或者是民主的價值的這個發展上面絕對是世界村最重要的一員所以我們應當要好好的謹慎絕對不能再有這樣的一個情勢而且讓人民來恐慌不安對不對\n\n24\n00:09:19,863 --> 00:09:47,587\n跟委員報告我覺得美國就是因為非常重視台灣的價值不管在經濟安全在地緣政治在這個相關的這個這個第一島鏈的一個位置上面都來都然後在國際航運的這個這個如此頻繁的這個在台灣的周圍的航道上面他任何台海有事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常巨大也會重創美國所以\n\n25\n00:09:48,387 --> 00:10:12,536\n這表示我們的重要性啊對那我剛剛提到的就是說他就是因為這樣你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大一次是2點多億3.6一次是5.67億美金這個都是無常軍演要強化我們的後備戰力不對稱戰力跟我們的作戰韌性所以這個部分你要想想看我們自己的預算我們都編列\n\n26\n00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:16,739\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n27\n00:10:38,442 --> 00:10:38,462\n謝謝,謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2402\t5685\t謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。請顧部長。我們的軍購軍援出了問題,有沒有啊?政府、國防部有解嗎?因為在媒體報導當中,這一次的美國軍火商\n24884\t44160\t雷神公司他說他惡意提高了對外軍售價格造成我方的損失你在受訪的當時你說這一次是美方主動調查並告知美國軍售制度有防弊\n44901\t66477\t的措施該案進入相關的司法程序那會將被高估的不動款項返回退回給台灣有沒有這回事啊全民都在等欸真的嗎那如果是真的會退回來多少那美國有防備的措施我台灣有沒有請做說明\n68202\t68222\t是!\n95690\t107597\t這是民眾大家看到這個訊息都嚇一跳所以在這邊請教也要謝謝美方通知我們那請教因為他們有防備機制我們有沒有我們有沒有\n108585\t129433\t跟委員報告,我剛剛都一再地回覆就是說因為我們是跟美國政府簽約的那美國政府要對我們負完全的責任所以美國是美國去跟雷神公司簽的不是我們跟雷神公司簽的所以我們現在的困難是我們沒有辦法去直接\n130633\t151568\t對,雷神公司。我們是跟美國政府。來,來,來。就是合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府。聽到你真實的回答,那我要請教部長,這是常態還是少數的案例?您說發生這個惡意?對,類似到這樣子。如果美國不告知,那我們也不知道。\n153009\t164736\t這是極為罕見的一個案例還好你回答這樣子是極為罕見那當然您剛才也說了美國政府要負全責是嗎\n166201\t183401\t美國政府會就因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府嘛所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的這個責任包括不管是在法律上這個集合的專案的集合上面那等等這些都要負由他來負責任\n185149\t212447\t這是目前國防部給人民的一個回應接下來本席要請問也就是軍購除了這一次的問題之外現在坊間大家都認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是研製所以在這樣的情況之下不管是這一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷這一些都有研製的問題是嗎?\n215199\t239233\t我想還是站櫃師簡單跟委員報告好請做說明報告委員跟委員報告我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後目前只剩下年底交運的托二V跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F16VBlock 擺動這三個軍購案目前仍在延長其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度\n240254\t255107\t其他慢慢跟上進度那三個延宕的部分我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢?怎麼談判呢?結果如何?剛剛講托世B的2B的這個部分我們希望在年底以前可以交互\n255948\t283527\t因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試現在已經通過測試了所以我想今年的第4季我們希望能夠全數交裝那F16V這個拐動的這個部分我們希望第4季的第一架機能夠出來以後我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢這是我們跟美方的要求我們跟他們的要求另外一項\n284414\t285935\t你所謂的競速,我們要延後多久可以給我們?\n307726\t309308\t在原則上就在115年的\n325461\t350860\t什麼時候交第一批年底之前年底之前來交第一批本期之所以提問也就是不希望民眾他對我們的政府有這麼多這麼多的問號提出之後要說明清楚讓民眾還是對國家有信心這是非常的重要因為我們在之前看到國防部的監察長那麼他們公佈報告他說去年部長\n351621\t379240\t他說去年的12月收到美國依照總統撥款權提供的軍備出現了彈藥過期包裝混亂無法使用甚至防彈背心照出來的這個圖片是潮濕發霉的連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉\n379520\t380881\t那一小部分你這做怎麼處置呢?\n407875\t429923\t：楊瓊瓔\n429923\t430423\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n458029\t470984\t所以外界對於整個就是說他去過度的去強調那小篇文物但是我們現在不是在推脫啦我們覺得既然有這樣子的一個\n473226\t501072\t教育的過程有發生這一狀況我們是跟美化有積極交涉所以第二批的PTA美國的拜登總統已經剛宣布嘛也是5.67億這都是無償的軍演那這樣應該是高達新台幣差不多將近10億3.65加5.67十億就兩匹加起來近乎十億多這樣子第二批的部分我想一定他已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們這樣子\n502865\t529980\t部長談論到這裡最重要的就是最後這一句話而不是他交的品項很多很多元項目多數量多所以少部分如此我覺得我們不應該用這個來推動我承認我接受委員的意見就是說不管是怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視那所以第二次的PDA就是剛剛宣布了5.67億的部分我想一定會大家雙方好好的\n530740\t558715\t所以因此我們在國際關係裡頭我想國家的這個互動都應該秉持的平等互惠的這個原則我們中華民國在整個產業科技文化這些軟實力或者是民主的價值的這個發展上面絕對是世界村最重要的一員所以我們應當要好好的謹慎絕對不能再有這樣的一個情勢而且讓人民來恐慌不安對不對\n559863\t587587\t跟委員報告我覺得美國就是因為非常重視台灣的價值不管在經濟安全在地緣政治在這個相關的這個這個第一島鏈的一個位置上面都來都然後在國際航運的這個這個如此頻繁的這個在台灣的周圍的航道上面他任何台海有事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常巨大也會重創美國所以\n588387\t612536\t這表示我們的重要性啊對那我剛剛提到的就是說他就是因為這樣你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大一次是2點多億3.6一次是5.67億美金這個都是無常軍演要強化我們的後備戰力不對稱戰力跟我們的作戰韌性所以這個部分你要想想看我們自己的預算我們都編列\n613996\t616739\t二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n638442\t638462\t謝謝,謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。請顧部長。我們的軍購軍援出了問題,有沒有啊?政府、國防部有解嗎?因為在媒體報導當中,這一次的美國軍火商\n雷神公司他說他惡意提高了對外軍售價格造成我方的損失你在受訪的當時你說這一次是美方主動調查並告知美國軍售制度有防弊\n的措施該案進入相關的司法程序那會將被高估的不動款項返回退回給台灣有沒有這回事啊全民都在等欸真的嗎那如果是真的會退回來多少那美國有防備的措施我台灣有沒有請做說明\n是!\n這是民眾大家看到這個訊息都嚇一跳所以在這邊請教也要謝謝美方通知我們那請教因為他們有防備機制我們有沒有我們有沒有\n跟委員報告,我剛剛都一再地回覆就是說因為我們是跟美國政府簽約的那美國政府要對我們負完全的責任所以美國是美國去跟雷神公司簽的不是我們跟雷神公司簽的所以我們現在的困難是我們沒有辦法去直接\n對,雷神公司。我們是跟美國政府。來,來,來。就是合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府。聽到你真實的回答,那我要請教部長,這是常態還是少數的案例?您說發生這個惡意?對,類似到這樣子。如果美國不告知,那我們也不知道。\n這是極為罕見的一個案例還好你回答這樣子是極為罕見那當然您剛才也說了美國政府要負全責是嗎\n美國政府會就因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府嘛所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的這個責任包括不管是在法律上這個集合的專案的集合上面那等等這些都要負由他來負責任\n這是目前國防部給人民的一個回應接下來本席要請問也就是軍購除了這一次的問題之外現在坊間大家都認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是研製所以在這樣的情況之下不管是這一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷這一些都有研製的問題是嗎?\n我想還是站櫃師簡單跟委員報告好請做說明報告委員跟委員報告我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後目前只剩下年底交運的托二V跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F16VBlock 擺動這三個軍購案目前仍在延長其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度\n其他慢慢跟上進度那三個延宕的部分我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢?怎麼談判呢?結果如何?剛剛講托世B的2B的這個部分我們希望在年底以前可以交互\n因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試現在已經通過測試了所以我想今年的第4季我們希望能夠全數交裝那F16V這個拐動的這個部分我們希望第4季的第一架機能夠出來以後我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢這是我們跟美方的要求我們跟他們的要求另外一項\n你所謂的競速,我們要延後多久可以給我們?\n在原則上就在115年的\n什麼時候交第一批年底之前年底之前來交第一批本期之所以提問也就是不希望民眾他對我們的政府有這麼多這麼多的問號提出之後要說明清楚讓民眾還是對國家有信心這是非常的重要因為我們在之前看到國防部的監察長那麼他們公佈報告他說去年部長\n他說去年的12月收到美國依照總統撥款權提供的軍備出現了彈藥過期包裝混亂無法使用甚至防彈背心照出來的這個圖片是潮濕發霉的連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉\n那一小部分你這做怎麼處置呢?\n：楊瓊瓔\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n所以外界對於整個就是說他去過度的去強調那小篇文物但是我們現在不是在推脫啦我們覺得既然有這樣子的一個\n教育的過程有發生這一狀況我們是跟美化有積極交涉所以第二批的PTA美國的拜登總統已經剛宣布嘛也是5.67億這都是無償的軍演那這樣應該是高達新台幣差不多將近10億3.65加5.67十億就兩匹加起來近乎十億多這樣子第二批的部分我想一定他已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們這樣子\n部長談論到這裡最重要的就是最後這一句話而不是他交的品項很多很多元項目多數量多所以少部分如此我覺得我們不應該用這個來推動我承認我接受委員的意見就是說不管是怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視那所以第二次的PDA就是剛剛宣布了5.67億的部分我想一定會大家雙方好好的\n所以因此我們在國際關係裡頭我想國家的這個互動都應該秉持的平等互惠的這個原則我們中華民國在整個產業科技文化這些軟實力或者是民主的價值的這個發展上面絕對是世界村最重要的一員所以我們應當要好好的謹慎絕對不能再有這樣的一個情勢而且讓人民來恐慌不安對不對\n跟委員報告我覺得美國就是因為非常重視台灣的價值不管在經濟安全在地緣政治在這個相關的這個這個第一島鏈的一個位置上面都來都然後在國際航運的這個這個如此頻繁的這個在台灣的周圍的航道上面他任何台海有事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常巨大也會重創美國所以\n這表示我們的重要性啊對那我剛剛提到的就是說他就是因為這樣你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大一次是2點多億3.6一次是5.67億美金這個都是無常軍演要強化我們的後備戰力不對稱戰力跟我們的作戰韌性所以這個部分你要想想看我們自己的預算我們都編列\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n謝謝,謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.402 --> 00:05.685\n謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。請顧部長。我們的軍購軍援出了問題,有沒有啊?政府、國防部有解嗎?因為在媒體報導當中,這一次的美國軍火商\n\n00:24.884 --> 00:44.160\n雷神公司他說他惡意提高了對外軍售價格造成我方的損失你在受訪的當時你說這一次是美方主動調查並告知美國軍售制度有防弊\n\n00:44.901 --> 01:06.477\n的措施該案進入相關的司法程序那會將被高估的不動款項返回退回給台灣有沒有這回事啊全民都在等欸真的嗎那如果是真的會退回來多少那美國有防備的措施我台灣有沒有請做說明\n\n01:08.202 --> 01:08.222\n是!\n\n01:35.690 --> 01:47.597\n這是民眾大家看到這個訊息都嚇一跳所以在這邊請教也要謝謝美方通知我們那請教因為他們有防備機制我們有沒有我們有沒有\n\n01:48.585 --> 02:09.433\n跟委員報告,我剛剛都一再地回覆就是說因為我們是跟美國政府簽約的那美國政府要對我們負完全的責任所以美國是美國去跟雷神公司簽的不是我們跟雷神公司簽的所以我們現在的困難是我們沒有辦法去直接\n\n02:10.633 --> 02:31.568\n對,雷神公司。我們是跟美國政府。來,來,來。就是合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府。聽到你真實的回答,那我要請教部長,這是常態還是少數的案例?您說發生這個惡意?對,類似到這樣子。如果美國不告知,那我們也不知道。\n\n02:33.009 --> 02:44.736\n這是極為罕見的一個案例還好你回答這樣子是極為罕見那當然您剛才也說了美國政府要負全責是嗎\n\n02:46.201 --> 03:03.401\n美國政府會就因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府嘛所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的這個責任包括不管是在法律上這個集合的專案的集合上面那等等這些都要負由他來負責任\n\n03:05.149 --> 03:32.447\n這是目前國防部給人民的一個回應接下來本席要請問也就是軍購除了這一次的問題之外現在坊間大家都認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是研製所以在這樣的情況之下不管是這一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷這一些都有研製的問題是嗎?\n\n03:35.199 --> 03:59.233\n我想還是站櫃師簡單跟委員報告好請做說明報告委員跟委員報告我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後目前只剩下年底交運的托二V跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F16VBlock擺動這三個軍購案目前仍在延長其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度\n\n04:00.254 --> 04:15.107\n其他慢慢跟上進度那三個延宕的部分我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢?怎麼談判呢?結果如何?剛剛講托世B的2B的這個部分我們希望在年底以前可以交互\n\n04:15.948 --> 04:43.527\n因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試現在已經通過測試了所以我想今年的第4季我們希望能夠全數交裝那F16V這個拐動的這個部分我們希望第4季的第一架機能夠出來以後我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢這是我們跟美方的要求我們跟他們的要求另外一項\n\n04:44.414 --> 04:45.935\n你所謂的競速,我們要延後多久可以給我們?\n\n05:07.726 --> 05:09.308\n在原則上就在115年的\n\n05:25.461 --> 05:50.860\n什麼時候交第一批年底之前年底之前來交第一批本期之所以提問也就是不希望民眾他對我們的政府有這麼多這麼多的問號提出之後要說明清楚讓民眾還是對國家有信心這是非常的重要因為我們在之前看到國防部的監察長那麼他們公佈報告他說去年部長\n\n05:51.621 --> 06:19.240\n他說去年的12月收到美國依照總統撥款權提供的軍備出現了彈藥過期包裝混亂無法使用甚至防彈背心照出來的這個圖片是潮濕發霉的連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉\n\n06:19.520 --> 06:20.881\n那一小部分你這做怎麼處置呢?\n\n07:09.923 --> 07:10.423\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情\n\n07:38.029 --> 07:50.984\n所以外界對於整個就是說他去過度的去強調那小篇文物但是我們現在不是在推脫啦我們覺得既然有這樣子的一個\n\n07:53.226 --> 08:21.072\n教育的過程有發生這一狀況我們是跟美化有積極交涉所以第二批的PTA美國的拜登總統已經剛宣布嘛也是5.67億這都是無償的軍演那這樣應該是高達新台幣差不多將近10億3.65加5.67十億就兩匹加起來近乎十億多這樣子第二批的部分我想一定他已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們這樣子\n\n08:22.865 --> 08:49.980\n部長談論到這裡最重要的就是最後這一句話而不是他交的品項很多很多元項目多數量多所以少部分如此我覺得我們不應該用這個來推動我承認我接受委員的意見就是說不管是怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視那所以第二次的PDA就是剛剛宣布了5.67億的部分我想一定會大家雙方好好的\n\n08:50.740 --> 09:18.715\n所以因此我們在國際關係裡頭我想國家的這個互動都應該秉持的平等互惠的這個原則我們中華民國在整個產業科技文化這些軟實力或者是民主的價值的這個發展上面絕對是世界村最重要的一員所以我們應當要好好的謹慎絕對不能再有這樣的一個情勢而且讓人民來恐慌不安對不對\n\n09:19.863 --> 09:47.587\n跟委員報告我覺得美國就是因為非常重視台灣的價值不管在經濟安全在地緣政治在這個相關的這個這個第一島鏈的一個位置上面都來都然後在國際航運的這個這個如此頻繁的這個在台灣的周圍的航道上面他任何台海有事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常巨大也會重創美國所以\n\n09:48.387 --> 10:12.536\n這表示我們的重要性啊對那我剛剛提到的就是說他就是因為這樣你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大一次是2點多億3.6一次是5.67億美金這個都是無常軍演要強化我們的後備戰力不對稱戰力跟我們的作戰韌性所以這個部分你要想想看我們自己的預算我們都編列\n\n10:13.996 --> 10:16.739\n二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為\n\n10:38.442 --> 10:38.462\n謝謝,謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.402,"end":5.685,"text":"謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。請顧部長。我們的軍購軍援出了問題,有沒有啊?政府、國防部有解嗎?因為在媒體報導當中,這一次的美國軍火商"},{"start":24.884,"end":44.16,"text":"雷神公司他說他惡意提高了對外軍售價格造成我方的損失你在受訪的當時你說這一次是美方主動調查並告知美國軍售制度有防弊"},{"start":44.901,"end":66.477,"text":"的措施該案進入相關的司法程序那會將被高估的不動款項返回退回給台灣有沒有這回事啊全民都在等欸真的嗎那如果是真的會退回來多少那美國有防備的措施我台灣有沒有請做說明"},{"start":68.202,"end":68.222,"text":"是!"},{"start":95.69,"end":107.597,"text":"這是民眾大家看到這個訊息都嚇一跳所以在這邊請教也要謝謝美方通知我們那請教因為他們有防備機制我們有沒有我們有沒有"},{"start":108.585,"end":129.433,"text":"跟委員報告,我剛剛都一再地回覆就是說因為我們是跟美國政府簽約的那美國政府要對我們負完全的責任所以美國是美國去跟雷神公司簽的不是我們跟雷神公司簽的所以我們現在的困難是我們沒有辦法去直接"},{"start":130.633,"end":151.568,"text":"對,雷神公司。我們是跟美國政府。來,來,來。就是合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府。聽到你真實的回答,那我要請教部長,這是常態還是少數的案例?您說發生這個惡意?對,類似到這樣子。如果美國不告知,那我們也不知道。"},{"start":153.009,"end":164.736,"text":"這是極為罕見的一個案例還好你回答這樣子是極為罕見那當然您剛才也說了美國政府要負全責是嗎"},{"start":166.201,"end":183.401,"text":"美國政府會就因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府嘛所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的這個責任包括不管是在法律上這個集合的專案的集合上面那等等這些都要負由他來負責任"},{"start":185.149,"end":212.447,"text":"這是目前國防部給人民的一個回應接下來本席要請問也就是軍購除了這一次的問題之外現在坊間大家都認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是研製所以在這樣的情況之下不管是這一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷這一些都有研製的問題是嗎?"},{"start":215.199,"end":239.233,"text":"我想還是站櫃師簡單跟委員報告好請做說明報告委員跟委員報告我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後目前只剩下年底交運的托二V跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F16VBlock 擺動這三個軍購案目前仍在延長其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度"},{"start":240.254,"end":255.107,"text":"其他慢慢跟上進度那三個延宕的部分我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢?怎麼談判呢?結果如何?剛剛講托世B的2B的這個部分我們希望在年底以前可以交互"},{"start":255.948,"end":283.527,"text":"因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試現在已經通過測試了所以我想今年的第4季我們希望能夠全數交裝那F16V這個拐動的這個部分我們希望第4季的第一架機能夠出來以後我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢這是我們跟美方的要求我們跟他們的要求另外一項"},{"start":284.414,"end":285.935,"text":"你所謂的競速,我們要延後多久可以給我們?"},{"start":307.726,"end":309.308,"text":"在原則上就在115年的"},{"start":325.461,"end":350.86,"text":"什麼時候交第一批年底之前年底之前來交第一批本期之所以提問也就是不希望民眾他對我們的政府有這麼多這麼多的問號提出之後要說明清楚讓民眾還是對國家有信心這是非常的重要因為我們在之前看到國防部的監察長那麼他們公佈報告他說去年部長"},{"start":351.621,"end":379.24,"text":"他說去年的12月收到美國依照總統撥款權提供的軍備出現了彈藥過期包裝混亂無法使用甚至防彈背心照出來的這個圖片是潮濕發霉的連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉"},{"start":379.52,"end":380.881,"text":"那一小部分你這做怎麼處置呢?"},{"start":407.875,"end":429.923,"text":"：楊瓊瓔"},{"start":429.923,"end":430.423,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情"},{"start":458.029,"end":470.984,"text":"所以外界對於整個就是說他去過度的去強調那小篇文物但是我們現在不是在推脫啦我們覺得既然有這樣子的一個"},{"start":473.226,"end":501.072,"text":"教育的過程有發生這一狀況我們是跟美化有積極交涉所以第二批的PTA美國的拜登總統已經剛宣布嘛也是5.67億這都是無償的軍演那這樣應該是高達新台幣差不多將近10億3.65加5.67十億就兩匹加起來近乎十億多這樣子第二批的部分我想一定他已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們這樣子"},{"start":502.865,"end":529.98,"text":"部長談論到這裡最重要的就是最後這一句話而不是他交的品項很多很多元項目多數量多所以少部分如此我覺得我們不應該用這個來推動我承認我接受委員的意見就是說不管是怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視那所以第二次的PDA就是剛剛宣布了5.67億的部分我想一定會大家雙方好好的"},{"start":530.74,"end":558.715,"text":"所以因此我們在國際關係裡頭我想國家的這個互動都應該秉持的平等互惠的這個原則我們中華民國在整個產業科技文化這些軟實力或者是民主的價值的這個發展上面絕對是世界村最重要的一員所以我們應當要好好的謹慎絕對不能再有這樣的一個情勢而且讓人民來恐慌不安對不對"},{"start":559.863,"end":587.587,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得美國就是因為非常重視台灣的價值不管在經濟安全在地緣政治在這個相關的這個這個第一島鏈的一個位置上面都來都然後在國際航運的這個這個如此頻繁的這個在台灣的周圍的航道上面他任何台海有事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常巨大也會重創美國所以"},{"start":588.387,"end":612.536,"text":"這表示我們的重要性啊對那我剛剛提到的就是說他就是因為這樣你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大一次是2點多億3.6一次是5.67億美金這個都是無常軍演要強化我們的後備戰力不對稱戰力跟我們的作戰韌性所以這個部分你要想想看我們自己的預算我們都編列"},{"start":613.996,"end":616.739,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":638.442,"end":638.462,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:56:10 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14:07:15","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":155237,"gazette":{"lineno":1147,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時56分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，部長，我們的軍購、軍援出了問題，有沒有啊？政府、國防部有解嗎？因為在媒體報導當中，這一次的美國軍火商──雷神公司，他們惡意提高了對外軍售價格，造成我方的損失，你在受訪當時說，這次是美方主動調查並告知，美國軍售制度有防弊的措施，該案進入相關的司法程序，會將被高估的不當款項返還退回給臺灣，有沒有這回事啊？全民都在等，真的嗎？如果是真的，會退回來多少？美國有防弊的措施，臺灣有沒有？請做說明。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，有關退回的款項，美方有初步告知，我剛剛在機密專報裡面報了，我想我就不宜再公開說明，剛剛機密專報都有聽到美方初步給我們的照會，整個要退回的款項應該還是要等美國調查程序完畢以後才能夠知悉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，民眾看到這個訊息都嚇一跳，所以在這邊請教，也要謝謝美方通知我們，他們有防弊機制，我們有沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我剛剛都一再的回復，因為我們是跟美國政府簽約，美國政府要對我們負完全的責任，所以是美國去跟雷神公司簽的，不是我們跟雷神公司簽的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們現在的困難是，我們沒有辦法直接跟雷神公司來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對雷神公司，我們是跟美國政府……"],["顧部長立雄：合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：聽到你真實的回答，那我要請教部長，這是常態，還是少數的案例？"],["顧部長立雄：您說發生這個惡意……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，類似像這樣……如果美國不告知，那我們也不知道，那會不會認為是「盤仔」？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這是極為罕見的一個案例。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你回答這樣子，是極為罕見，當然您剛剛也說了，美國政府要負全責，是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府，所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的責任，不管是在法律上專案的稽核等等，這些都要由他們來負責任。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是目前國防部給人民的回應。好，接下來本席要請問，軍購除了這一次的問題之外，現在坊間大家認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是延滯，在這樣的情況之下，不管是一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷，這些都有延滯的問題，是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：還是請戰規司簡單跟委員報告一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請做說明。"],["黃司長文啓：跟委員報告，我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後，目前只剩下年底交運的拖2B跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F-16V（Blk70）這三個軍購案仍在延宕，其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：其他慢慢跟上進度，那三個延宕的部分，我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢？怎麼談判呢？結果如何？"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛講的拖式2B這部分，我們希望在年底以前可以交付，因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試，現在已經通過測試了，所以我想今年的第四季，我們希望能夠全數交裝。那F-16V（Blk70）這部分，我們希望在第四季第一架機能夠出來以後，我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢，這是我們跟美方的要求。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們跟他們的要求？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那另外一項呢？"],["顧部長立雄：AGM-154這個部分，因為採購的是最新的構型，所以美方還要執行一些系統整合跟產線備料的工作，生產的時間較長，所以現在交運的期程是延後，但是我們一直在督促美方能夠儘速來完成……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所謂的「儘速」，要延後多久可以給我們？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，原本我們預估是在114年能夠交，目前經過跟美方協調，我們爭取在115年底之前，AGM-154C能夠交第一批。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在原則上就是在115年的什麼時候交第一批？"],["黃司長文啓：年底之前。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：年底之前交第一批？"],["黃司長文啓：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席之所以提問，也就是不希望民眾對我們的政府有這麼多、這麼多的問號，提出之後要說明清楚，讓民眾還是對國家有信心，這非常的重要。因為我們之前看到美國國防部監察長公布報告，部長，他說臺灣去年12月收到美國依照「總統撥款權」提供的軍備，出現彈藥過期、包裝混亂無法使用，甚至照出來的防彈背心的圖片是潮溼發霉的，連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉不要的東西。這怎麼回事？是真的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，前面的委員已經有垂詢過，我們已經說明了，相關的防彈背心這部分，大概只有其中的一小部分，因為他提供給我們的防彈背心的相關品項相當的大，因為這一次PDA給我們的全部應該近乎新臺幣110億……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那一小部分你做什麼處置呢？"],["顧部長立雄：這部分經過檢整之後是堪用的，是可以用的，彈藥的部分也是可以用的。"],["林局長文祥：可以用，堪用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那他們已經告訴我們說，很像是清掉不要的東西，這怎麼回事？"],["顧部長立雄：因為美方軍援的品項相當的大、相當的多，現在只有非常少的部分有發現，它在交運的過程當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有這樣的狀況？"],["顧部長立雄：有這樣的一些比如潮溼或是發霉的狀況，但是經過檢整之後都是可以堪用的。那彈藥的部分，我剛剛已經提到了，這批彈藥本來就沒有年限的問題，我們甚至很多的子彈，到現在為止，都比它的年限還要久；那他提供的也不純然都是這個，因為他提供的這個部分也是占少部分，大部分47%以上都是在20年內的。所以，外界對於這整件事就是說過度的去強調那小部分，但是我們現在不是在推拖，我們覺得既然交運的過程有發生這些狀況，我們也跟美方積極交涉，所以第二批的PDA，美國的拜登總統剛剛已經宣布也是5.67億美元，這個都是無償的軍援，那這樣應該是高達新臺幣差不多……"],["黃司長文啓：將近10億，3.65加5.67。"],["顧部長立雄：就兩筆加起來將近10億美金。報告委員，第二批的部分，美方已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，談論到這裡，最重要的就是最後這一句話，不是說他交付的品項很多元、項目多、數量多，所以少部分如此，少部分也不可以。"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得我們不應該以此為由來推託，我承認，我接受委員的意見，就是不管怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視，所以第二次的PDA，就是剛剛宣布的5.67億的部分，我想雙方一定會好好的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要監督好，因此我們在國際關係裡頭，我想國家之間的互動都應該秉持著平等互惠的原則。我們中華民國在整個產業、科技、文化上的軟實力，或者是民主價值的發展上面，絕對是世界村最重要的一員，所以我們應當要好好的謹慎，絕對不能再發生這樣的情事，而且讓人民感到恐慌、不安，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我覺得美國就是因為非常重視臺灣的價值，不管在經濟安全，在地緣政治，在相關的第一島鏈的位置上面，然後國際航運如此頻繁的在臺灣周圍的航道上面，臺海有任何事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常的巨大，也會重創美國，所以美國……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這表示我們的重要性，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：對。我剛剛提到的，美方就是因為這樣他才……你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大，一次是3.65億，一次是5.67億美金，這個都是無償軍援，要強化我們的後備戰力、不對稱戰力跟我們的作戰韌性，所以這個部分，你要想想看，我們自己都還沒有完全能夠把後備戰力的預算編列到位的情況之下，他都能夠這樣支援我們快速的提升我們的後備戰力，我想這個部分應該還是要強調，美國政府非常的關切我們臺灣的價值。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席之所以願意給你這麼多時間充分的說明清楚，主要的目的是要讓國人安心，這是第一個。第二個，有不對的情事，一定要好好的謹慎去應對之，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而不是因為這一邊好，這一邊有狀況，我們沒有去把它完整之，這是我們不願看到的，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這也是我們中華民國、我們國家最重要的一個立場跟尊嚴嘛，對不對？就誠如我說的，它必須是互惠平等的站在一個民主、自由價值的立足點嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。接下來請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","接下來請伍麗華委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}}