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\"民防防護團﹚架構圖﹚人數﹚全部都是民防團隊編組﹚演習扶勤支援軍事勤務辦法﹚第9條﹚17﹚18﹚19﹚21條這都是非常清楚的事情所以我不是很清楚為什麼在媒體或立法委員一直沒有去看法條所以他們完全不知道民防人力到底在哪裡\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 202.737, \"end\": 202.877, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 202.877, \"end\": 203.097, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 203.097, \"end\": 205.138, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"架\", \"start\": 205.138, \"end\": 206.818, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 206.818, \"end\": 208.239, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 208.239, \"end\": 208.499, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 208.499, \"end\": 208.659, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 208.659, \"end\": 208.839, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 208.839, \"end\": 209.279, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 209.279, \"end\": 209.479, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 209.479, \"end\": 210.819, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"演\", \"start\": 210.819, \"end\": 211.259, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"扶\", \"start\": 211.259, \"end\": 211.439, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"勤\", \"start\": 211.439, \"end\": 211.639, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 211.639, \"end\": 211.759, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"援\", \"start\": 211.759, \"end\": 212.2, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 212.2, \"end\": 212.4, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"勤\", \"start\": 212.4, \"end\": 212.98, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 212.98, \"end\": 213.8, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 213.8, \"end\": 218.401, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 218.401, \"end\": 218.501, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 218.501, \"end\": 218.601, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 218.601, \"end\": 218.681, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 218.681, \"end\": 218.821, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 218.821, \"end\": 219.021, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 219.021, \"end\": 219.181, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 219.181, \"end\": 219.301, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 219.301, \"end\": 219.481, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 219.481, \"end\": 219.842, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 219.842, \"end\": 219.942, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 219.942, \"end\": 219.982, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 219.982, \"end\": 220.102, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 220.102, \"end\": 220.182, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 220.182, \"end\": 220.302, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 220.302, \"end\": 220.382, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 220.382, \"end\": 220.582, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 220.582, \"end\": 220.822, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 220.822, \"end\": 221.522, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 221.522, \"end\": 222.422, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 222.422, \"end\": 223.262, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 223.262, \"end\": 223.963, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 223.963, \"end\": 224.123, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 224.123, \"end\": 224.283, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 224.283, \"end\": 225.003, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 225.003, \"end\": 225.203, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 225.203, \"end\": 225.323, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 225.323, \"end\": 225.443, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 225.443, \"end\": 225.523, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 225.523, \"end\": 225.643, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 225.643, \"end\": 225.823, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 225.823, \"end\": 226.223, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 226.223, \"end\": 226.283, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 226.283, \"end\": 226.323, \"score\": 0.485}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 226.323, \"end\": 226.623, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 226.623, \"end\": 226.783, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 226.783, \"end\": 226.963, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 226.963, \"end\": 227.083, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 227.083, \"end\": 227.163, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 227.163, \"end\": 227.684, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 227.684, \"end\": 227.864, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 227.864, \"end\": 228.024, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 228.024, \"end\": 228.144, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 228.144, \"end\": 228.304, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 228.304, \"end\": 228.424, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 228.424, \"end\": 228.484, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 228.484, \"end\": 228.624, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 228.624, \"end\": 228.644, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}]}, {\"start\": 229.604, \"end\": 249.217, \"text\": \"報告沈委員我相信很多人他們大概有點斷章取義根據民防法裡面或是根據我們全社會防衛這個韌性裡面所標示的最重要的一件事情就是維持我們台灣的社會穩定也就是說我們這麼多的這個民力的部分維持台灣的社會穩定或是包括轄下的包括衛福交通或者是經濟農業等等\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 229.604, \"end\": 229.784, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 229.784, \"end\": 229.944, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 229.944, \"end\": 230.225, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 230.225, \"end\": 230.365, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 230.365, \"end\": 230.565, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 230.565, \"end\": 230.705, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 230.705, \"end\": 230.905, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 230.905, \"end\": 231.085, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 231.085, \"end\": 231.385, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 231.385, \"end\": 231.646, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 231.646, \"end\": 231.806, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 231.806, \"end\": 232.326, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 232.326, \"end\": 232.846, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"章\", \"start\": 232.846, \"end\": 233.127, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 233.127, \"end\": 234.007, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 234.007, \"end\": 234.287, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 234.287, \"end\": 234.487, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 234.487, \"end\": 234.708, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 234.708, \"end\": 235.028, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 235.028, \"end\": 235.188, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 235.188, \"end\": 235.288, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 235.288, \"end\": 235.428, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 235.428, \"end\": 235.728, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 235.728, \"end\": 235.988, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 235.988, \"end\": 236.169, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 236.169, \"end\": 236.509, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 236.509, \"end\": 237.529, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"韌\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 237.529, \"end\": 237.81, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 237.81, \"end\": 237.99, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 237.99, \"end\": 238.43, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 238.43, \"end\": 238.57, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 238.57, \"end\": 238.73, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 238.73, \"end\": 238.89, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 238.89, \"end\": 239.03, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 239.03, \"end\": 239.131, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 239.131, \"end\": 239.151, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 239.151, \"end\": 239.291, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 239.291, \"end\": 239.511, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 239.511, \"end\": 239.691, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 239.691, \"end\": 240.171, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 240.171, \"end\": 240.291, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 240.291, \"end\": 240.672, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 240.672, \"end\": 240.832, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 240.832, \"end\": 241.092, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 241.092, \"end\": 241.392, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 241.392, \"end\": 241.512, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 241.512, \"end\": 242.012, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 242.012, \"end\": 242.513, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 242.513, \"end\": 242.613, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 242.613, \"end\": 242.753, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 242.753, \"end\": 243.013, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 243.013, \"end\": 243.473, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 243.473, \"end\": 243.714, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 243.714, \"end\": 244.054, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 244.054, \"end\": 244.234, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 244.234, \"end\": 244.374, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 244.374, \"end\": 244.514, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 244.514, \"end\": 244.634, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 244.634, \"end\": 245.054, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 245.054, \"end\": 245.194, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 245.194, \"end\": 245.415, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 245.415, \"end\": 245.555, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 245.555, \"end\": 245.955, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 245.955, \"end\": 246.095, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 246.095, \"end\": 246.235, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 246.235, \"end\": 246.355, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 246.355, \"end\": 246.555, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 246.555, \"end\": 247.236, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"轄\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 247.236, \"end\": 247.456, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 247.456, \"end\": 247.576, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 247.576, \"end\": 247.716, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 247.716, \"end\": 248.116, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 248.116, \"end\": 248.337, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 248.337, \"end\": 248.557, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 248.557, \"end\": 248.797, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 248.797, \"end\": 248.917, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 248.917, \"end\": 249.057, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 249.057, \"end\": 249.177, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 249.177, \"end\": 249.197, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 249.197, \"end\": 249.217, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 250.998, \"end\": 273.311, \"text\": \"臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最大的一個需要做的任務編組尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大的一個挑戰那維持臺灣社會穩定還有維持政府的正常運作然後第三個是支援軍事勤務這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範一步一步往前推進的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 250.998, \"end\": 251.238, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 251.238, \"end\": 251.519, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 251.519, \"end\": 251.699, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 251.699, \"end\": 251.819, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 251.819, \"end\": 252.039, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 252.039, \"end\": 252.219, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 252.219, \"end\": 252.459, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 252.459, \"end\": 252.639, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 252.639, \"end\": 252.819, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 252.819, \"end\": 252.939, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 252.939, \"end\": 253.5, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 253.5, \"end\": 253.66, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 253.66, \"end\": 253.8, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 253.8, \"end\": 253.94, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 253.94, \"end\": 254.06, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 254.06, \"end\": 254.74, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 254.74, \"end\": 254.9, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 254.9, \"end\": 255.02, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 255.02, \"end\": 255.281, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 255.281, \"end\": 255.381, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 255.381, \"end\": 255.621, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 255.621, \"end\": 256.361, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": 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00:00:55,651\n沈委員好院長好我今天的問題大概只有兩個因為我想說總質詢的時間並沒有所以我問幾個大方向因為第一個題目是跟內政部比較有關所以可能會請市方部長來回答第二個問題可能會跟部會的協調比較有關所以可能會請院長第一個問題是在\n\n3\n00:00:59,940 --> 00:01:27,755\n就是因為這個新聞的關係我們都可以一直看到就是這個全社會這個防衛任性就現在這個總統府已經召開了這個第一次的會議但因為有一個這個所謂40萬名利一直被強調我昨天在國防外交委員會其實也非常多的委員來造謠就是說對於這個40萬名利的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣不斷的去提到說這是民兵又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的一個論述\n\n4\n00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:45,414\n但是我們先不管說這一方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地在這邊的報導其實是非常的誤導但我總覺得這邊有幾個細項我想問一下第一個就是大概在2022年左右就是我們的管主委這那時候也是立法委員\n\n5\n00:01:45,994 --> 00:02:09,947\n他在質詢的時候其實那時候有提到他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬51萬結果現在降到大概47也就是民力有減少所以也就是說當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了那我不知道是說計算的標準是現在不一樣了還是說的確我們的民防人力有減少的狀況\n\n6\n00:02:11,484 --> 00:02:32,121\n謝謝沈委員的關心我非常清楚這個總統府所召開的全社會防衛任性一共有五大分組那內政部所負責的是屬於可治民利這一組那所以在內政部的管轄內我們一定要根據我們的法律上的授權我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法災害防救法還有這個替代役管理條例\n\n7\n00:02:32,722 --> 00:02:32,922\n沈伯洋\n\n8\n00:02:56,625 --> 00:03:22,017\n沒有把它算在內所以真正則算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右所以這個是我們很正確的一個說法提供給這個沈委員參考那確實的反而是人力上的一個減少那剛剛這個部長有提到法規其實我覺得法規還是最重要的畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少然後或者說是什麼樣的邊組是在這個民防體系裡面所以我這邊有整理這個中央主管機關我們最主要這四種不同的這個\n\n9\n00:03:22,737 --> 00:03:48,644\n民防防護團﹚架構圖﹚人數﹚全部都是民防團隊編組﹚演習扶勤支援軍事勤務辦法﹚第9條﹚17﹚18﹚19﹚21條這都是非常清楚的事情所以我不是很清楚為什麼在媒體或立法委員一直沒有去看法條所以他們完全不知道民防人力到底在哪裡\n\n10\n00:03:49,604 --> 00:04:09,217\n報告沈委員我相信很多人他們大概有點斷章取義根據民防法裡面或是根據我們全社會防衛這個韌性裡面所標示的最重要的一件事情就是維持我們台灣的社會穩定也就是說我們這麼多的這個民力的部分維持台灣的社會穩定或是包括轄下的包括衛福交通或者是經濟農業等等\n\n11\n00:04:10,998 --> 00:04:33,311\n臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最大的一個需要做的任務編組尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大的一個挑戰那維持臺灣社會穩定還有維持政府的正常運作然後第三個是支援軍事勤務這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範一步一步往前推進的\n\n12\n00:04:34,481 --> 00:05:01,318\n謝謝部長那這邊呢但是我有一個比較小的問題就是說因為是剛剛講的我們這個在目前的民防法還有民防團隊編組的訓練演習相關條例所規定的這個內容剛剛部長也有提到但這一個圖是我上一次在總質詢的時候有問院長的那這個圖是我根據權動署的網站把它畫出來的那當然內政部最主要是負責右上角那個部分就剛剛有提到民防人力啊消防人力啊替代役啊等等之類的那我這邊想要確定一件事情就是\n\n13\n00:05:01,758 --> 00:05:29,473\n因為按照權動署這樣的一個架構﹖他的一個綱領﹖他有八大計畫﹖他的右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案﹖然後有這個跟教育部比較有關的一些﹖精神動員﹖財力動員﹖等等之類的這一些動員的人﹖多少其實也是算﹖人力﹖但我不是很確定的事情就是﹖當我們在講這個40萬的時候﹖我們也把這個交通的﹖或者說今天跟這個科技動員的﹖可能速發的那些人有算進來﹖還是沒有算進來﹖\n\n14\n00:05:32,942 --> 00:05:55,661\n我跟委員補充一下第一個您現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員就是全動法裡面那全動法的主政機關是國防部但是有一部分是內政部來配合的就有點像您剛所說你再問到有關科技的部分有關交通的部分有關衛生的部分那在於我們全社會防衛任性的話它就是屬於特種防護團\n\n15\n00:05:56,522 --> 00:06:25,664\n也就是我們常常在提到如果是關鍵基礎設施比如說可能是台電的電廠或是中油的油廠或者是中華電信等等這些單位那他們這些單位呢就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作那就是跟我跟剛剛跟您報告的一樣在平時的時候呢他就是維持他們自己本身的運作的正常然後跟外界要提供電提供油然後提供那個有關電信的溝通這個交通等等這個部分\n\n16\n00:06:26,084 --> 00:06:26,284\n沈伯洋議員\n\n17\n00:06:41,530 --> 00:07:06,394\n感謝因為現在目前來講這幾個的進度我是在各部會的時候去問說這個目前的進度到什麼地方那當然我會想知道說譬如說右上角這個部分因為是內政部主責其實40萬目前的計算比較多是還是在內政部這一個就右上角這一個部分那關於這個內政部因為在2023年的時候已經有開始在盤點民防人力然後接下來可能會有一些教育上的一些這個課程的一個改寫\n\n18\n00:07:07,199 --> 00:07:21,506\n還包含在最後一行這一個這邊可能有點擋到就是替代役的這一個人力的動員我去年我這還沒有進來立法院之前我有去幫替代役上過課所以呢但是這個上面這兩個目前的進度為何我可能之後在內政委員會的時候再來詢問部長\n\n19\n00:07:22,706 --> 00:07:47,981\n因為這個部分我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編但因為預算編了之後有可能是比如說我們針對這個的訓練我們編大量的預算但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算它可能只是課程的變更因為原來的課程可能我們也知道可能有時候是跟這個民防沒有什麼太大的關係那如果是課程內容的修改它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊所以關於這個細項我可能到內政委員會的時候再來詢問\n\n20\n00:07:48,561 --> 00:07:48,741\n沈伯洋議員\n\n21\n00:08:11,626 --> 00:08:29,881\n教育部退場機制以後給內政部納管我們會把大部分替代役訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理這部分比較多會落在訓練跟教材的經費我想這也非常重要目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個\n\n22\n00:08:30,861 --> 00:08:54,510\n致安維護組以及消防應變組這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分所以未來不管是訓練也好或是教材也好或是一部分的設備我們都要希望透過114年的預算把它補充這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛任性裡面也協助現在的警消或者一警一消做一部分的工作上面的支援\n\n23\n00:08:55,510 --> 00:09:12,064\n謝謝部長因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的這個改變很重要那希望錢能夠花在島口上那接下來我想問一下就是第二個問題這可能最主要是要問院長了就是中國威脅的問題那這邊呢中國威脅呢這個我在這一個最近我們針對中國的威脅把它分成幾個主要的面向\n\n24\n00:09:12,965 --> 00:09:35,614\n包含軍事威脅﹚社會上的滲透﹚輿論的影響﹚左上角所謂的經濟的影響﹚政治整入的滲透﹚還包含法律戰﹚外交戰等等之類的在這邊我發現在台灣的法規在盤點的時候我們發現我們對於經濟安保這個部分經濟安全這個部分保護的是稍微比較少一點我們經濟部隊產業當然也是比較保護\n\n25\n00:09:38,515 --> 00:09:57,543\n2019年日本已經從經濟安保法有一系列法律不斷通過這部分對於中國有關的滲透應對不一定那麼得當我先從幾個小例子開始這個例子其實非常的小這個例子是有人在網路上分享他是說他這個新兵要去當兵的路上\n\n26\n00:09:58,503 --> 00:10:26,532\n結果呢這個看到這個遊覽車上面在放這個解放軍啊裡面說為共產主義奮鬥終生那我們去稍微想了一下就是說這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生第一個它如果是國防部直接包的車發生那當然我們要問國防部說它在包車的時候它到底是有沒有去注意這件事情但它也有可能只是單純譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車然後遊覽車來載他們然後可能是要往來這一個高鐵站\n\n27\n00:10:27,412 --> 00:10:57,210\n但也有可能是地方政府的民政局可能兵役科他們在新兵入伍的時候地方政府本來就會有專車然後帶他們到特定的地點所以它可能會地方政府的事也有可能是府委自己的事也有可能是國防部的事但我在這邊想要問的就是說因為這件事情它非常非常的細我們以往的譬如說按照我們新的自動安全管理法我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用啊什麼等等之類有資安威脅的啊但是跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係雖然它也是個產品它就只是個影片\n\n28\n00:10:57,390 --> 00:10:57,410\n好謝謝\n\n29\n00:11:26,135 --> 00:11:45,412\n報告委員經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項當然就是現在國家會積極的來維護國家安全重要的一環那很多的威脅有形的無形的我覺得無形的威脅文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行的\n\n30\n00:11:46,144 --> 00:12:07,276\n像剛剛委員所提到這個案例我們知道他是在9月23號臺中市政府在載送一些經典朋友們這個義南的一個車輛上面現在的說明是說司機自行但是我是認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題剛剛委員也非常的清楚說我們又有法律的嚴肅的這個看這個問題也許\n\n31\n00:12:09,718 --> 00:12:09,858\n沈伯洋\n\n32\n00:12:22,972 --> 00:12:48,397\n我每希望說未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候對於這種行為人的行為注意的太陽我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面的適合的文字來做一些說明而不是用直接的裁判我想我們可以繼續這樣的努力但是總之這種努力是全面但是總還會有一些漏洞中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞才能完全執行\n\n33\n00:12:51,086 --> 00:13:07,231\n這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集就我們所知道他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去所以國防部還沒有接收的時候是前半截是臺中市政府的兵役徵集\n\n34\n00:13:08,651 --> 00:13:08,952\n沈伯洋\n\n35\n00:13:25,933 --> 00:13:44,785\n謝謝那因為呢對我來講就是說呢他不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題但一旦是我們在契約上面或者說我們並沒有去規範的時候他本來就有這個空間可以去做但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到他是地方政府那地方政府來做這件事情的時候我們有時候根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府他要怎麼做\n\n36\n00:13:45,485 --> 00:13:46,285\n在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到\n\n37\n00:14:01,553 --> 00:14:18,892\n那時候剛好也是在跟這個海委會在質詢的過程提到說他們可能在觀光方面可能在產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談那等於用共產黨典型的模式用地方來包圍中央你今天中央不跟我好我地方來跟我好\n\n38\n00:14:19,172 --> 00:14:20,653\n臺灣的民意代表及相關業者主動繞開民進黨政府和中國直接交流\n\n39\n00:14:44,302 --> 00:15:13,051\n這下面這一段呢中國與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點來想辦法規避民進黨帶來的兩岸關係的不穩定因素啦那再來呢就是呢這個之前的陸委會其實已經提過了說照理說如果今天兩岸條例第5條的規範涉及公權力的事項沒有經過授權是不能夠簽署任何相關的協議嗎什麼等等之類的但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多譬如說他們之前呢我先把報告台的案例譬如說之前就發生過美國特定的州他就直接在討論說\n\n40\n00:15:13,911 --> 00:15:14,591\n關於兩岸事務都是中央的職權\n\n41\n00:16:08,373 --> 00:16:15,998\n好,謝謝沈委員好,謝謝卓院長下一位請廖先生\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n16786\t24315\t有沒有聲音有有謝謝副院長那有請院長跟那個部長謝謝那個左院長還有劉部長謝謝兩位請\n36502\t55651\t沈委員好院長好我今天的問題大概只有兩個因為我想說總質詢的時間並沒有所以我問幾個大方向因為第一個題目是跟內政部比較有關所以可能會請市方部長來回答第二個問題可能會跟部會的協調比較有關所以可能會請院長第一個問題是在\n59940\t87755\t就是因為這個新聞的關係我們都可以一直看到就是這個全社會這個防衛任性就現在這個總統府已經召開了這個第一次的會議但因為有一個這個所謂40萬名利一直被強調我昨天在國防外交委員會其實也非常多的委員來造謠就是說對於這個40萬名利的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣不斷的去提到說這是民兵又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的一個論述\n89476\t105414\t但是我們先不管說這一方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地在這邊的報導其實是非常的誤導但我總覺得這邊有幾個細項我想問一下第一個就是大概在2022年左右就是我們的管主委這那時候也是立法委員\n105994\t129947\t他在質詢的時候其實那時候有提到他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬51萬結果現在降到大概47也就是民力有減少所以也就是說當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了那我不知道是說計算的標準是現在不一樣了還是說的確我們的民防人力有減少的狀況\n131484\t152121\t謝謝沈委員的關心我非常清楚這個總統府所召開的全社會防衛任性一共有五大分組那內政部所負責的是屬於可治民利這一組那所以在內政部的管轄內我們一定要根據我們的法律上的授權我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法災害防救法還有這個替代役管理條例\n152722\t152922\t沈伯洋\n176625\t202017\t沒有把它算在內所以真正則算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右所以這個是我們很正確的一個說法提供給這個沈委員參考那確實的反而是人力上的一個減少那剛剛這個部長有提到法規其實我覺得法規還是最重要的畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少然後或者說是什麼樣的邊組是在這個民防體系裡面所以我這邊有整理這個中央主管機關我們最主要這四種不同的這個\n202737\t228644\t民防防護團﹚架構圖﹚人數﹚全部都是民防團隊編組﹚演習扶勤支援軍事勤務辦法﹚第9條﹚17﹚18﹚19﹚21條這都是非常清楚的事情所以我不是很清楚為什麼在媒體或立法委員一直沒有去看法條所以他們完全不知道民防人力到底在哪裡\n229604\t249217\t報告沈委員我相信很多人他們大概有點斷章取義根據民防法裡面或是根據我們全社會防衛這個韌性裡面所標示的最重要的一件事情就是維持我們台灣的社會穩定也就是說我們這麼多的這個民力的部分維持台灣的社會穩定或是包括轄下的包括衛福交通或者是經濟農業等等\n250998\t273311\t臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最大的一個需要做的任務編組尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大的一個挑戰那維持臺灣社會穩定還有維持政府的正常運作然後第三個是支援軍事勤務這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範一步一步往前推進的\n274481\t301318\t謝謝部長那這邊呢但是我有一個比較小的問題就是說因為是剛剛講的我們這個在目前的民防法還有民防團隊編組的訓練演習相關條例所規定的這個內容剛剛部長也有提到但這一個圖是我上一次在總質詢的時候有問院長的那這個圖是我根據權動署的網站把它畫出來的那當然內政部最主要是負責右上角那個部分就剛剛有提到民防人力啊消防人力啊替代役啊等等之類的那我這邊想要確定一件事情就是\n301758\t329473\t因為按照權動署這樣的一個架構﹖他的一個綱領﹖他有八大計畫﹖他的右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案﹖然後有這個跟教育部比較有關的一些﹖精神動員﹖財力動員﹖等等之類的這一些動員的人﹖多少其實也是算﹖人力﹖但我不是很確定的事情就是﹖當我們在講這個40萬的時候﹖我們也把這個交通的﹖或者說今天跟這個科技動員的﹖可能速發的那些人有算進來﹖還是沒有算進來﹖\n332942\t355661\t我跟委員補充一下第一個您現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員就是全動法裡面那全動法的主政機關是國防部但是有一部分是內政部來配合的就有點像您剛所說你再問到有關科技的部分有關交通的部分有關衛生的部分那在於我們全社會防衛任性的話它就是屬於特種防護團\n356522\t385664\t也就是我們常常在提到如果是關鍵基礎設施比如說可能是台電的電廠或是中油的油廠或者是中華電信等等這些單位那他們這些單位呢就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作那就是跟我跟剛剛跟您報告的一樣在平時的時候呢他就是維持他們自己本身的運作的正常然後跟外界要提供電提供油然後提供那個有關電信的溝通這個交通等等這個部分\n386084\t386284\t沈伯洋議員\n401530\t426394\t感謝因為現在目前來講這幾個的進度我是在各部會的時候去問說這個目前的進度到什麼地方那當然我會想知道說譬如說右上角這個部分因為是內政部主責其實40萬目前的計算比較多是還是在內政部這一個就右上角這一個部分那關於這個內政部因為在2023年的時候已經有開始在盤點民防人力然後接下來可能會有一些教育上的一些這個課程的一個改寫\n427199\t441506\t還包含在最後一行這一個這邊可能有點擋到就是替代役的這一個人力的動員我去年我這還沒有進來立法院之前我有去幫替代役上過課所以呢但是這個上面這兩個目前的進度為何我可能之後在內政委員會的時候再來詢問部長\n442706\t467981\t因為這個部分我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編但因為預算編了之後有可能是比如說我們針對這個的訓練我們編大量的預算但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算它可能只是課程的變更因為原來的課程可能我們也知道可能有時候是跟這個民防沒有什麼太大的關係那如果是課程內容的修改它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊所以關於這個細項我可能到內政委員會的時候再來詢問\n468561\t468741\t沈伯洋議員\n491626\t509881\t教育部退場機制以後給內政部納管我們會把大部分替代役訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理這部分比較多會落在訓練跟教材的經費我想這也非常重要目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個\n510861\t534510\t致安維護組以及消防應變組這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分所以未來不管是訓練也好或是教材也好或是一部分的設備我們都要希望透過114年的預算把它補充這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛任性裡面也協助現在的警消或者一警一消做一部分的工作上面的支援\n535510\t552064\t謝謝部長因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的這個改變很重要那希望錢能夠花在島口上那接下來我想問一下就是第二個問題這可能最主要是要問院長了就是中國威脅的問題那這邊呢中國威脅呢這個我在這一個最近我們針對中國的威脅把它分成幾個主要的面向\n552965\t575614\t包含軍事威脅﹚社會上的滲透﹚輿論的影響﹚左上角所謂的經濟的影響﹚政治整入的滲透﹚還包含法律戰﹚外交戰等等之類的在這邊我發現在台灣的法規在盤點的時候我們發現我們對於經濟安保這個部分經濟安全這個部分保護的是稍微比較少一點我們經濟部隊產業當然也是比較保護\n578515\t597543\t2019 年日本已經從經濟安保法有一系列法律不斷通過這部分對於中國有關的滲透應對不一定那麼得當我先從幾個小例子開始這個例子其實非常的小這個例子是有人在網路上分享他是說他這個新兵要去當兵的路上\n598503\t626532\t結果呢 這個 看到這個遊覽車上面在放這個解放軍啊 裡面說為共產主義奮鬥終生那我們去稍微想了一下就是說這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生第一個 它如果是國防部直接包的車發生那當然我們要問國防部說它在包車的時候它到底是有沒有去注意這件事情但它也有可能只是單純 譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車然後遊覽車來載他們然後可能是要往來這一個高鐵站\n627412\t657210\t但也有可能是地方政府的民政局可能兵役科他們在新兵入伍的時候地方政府本來就會有專車然後帶他們到特定的地點所以它可能會地方政府的事也有可能是府委自己的事也有可能是國防部的事但我在這邊想要問的就是說因為這件事情它非常非常的細我們以往的譬如說按照我們新的自動安全管理法我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用啊什麼等等之類有資安威脅的啊但是跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係雖然它也是個產品它就只是個影片\n657390\t657410\t好 謝謝\n686135\t705412\t報告委員經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項當然就是現在國家會積極的來維護國家安全重要的一環那很多的威脅有形的無形的我覺得無形的威脅文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行的\n706144\t727276\t像剛剛委員所提到這個案例我們知道他是在9月23號臺中市政府在載送一些經典朋友們這個義南的一個車輛上面現在的說明是說司機自行但是我是認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題剛剛委員也非常的清楚說我們又有法律的嚴肅的這個看這個問題也許\n729718\t729858\t沈伯洋\n742972\t768397\t我每希望說未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候對於這種行為人的行為注意的太陽我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面的適合的文字來做一些說明而不是用直接的裁判我想我們可以繼續這樣的努力但是總之這種努力是全面但是總還會有一些漏洞中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞才能完全執行\n771086\t787231\t這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集就我們所知道他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去所以國防部還沒有接收的時候是前半截是臺中市政府的兵役徵集\n788651\t788952\t沈伯洋\n805933\t824785\t謝謝那因為呢對我來講就是說呢他不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題但一旦是我們在契約上面或者說我們並沒有去規範的時候他本來就有這個空間可以去做但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到他是地方政府那地方政府來做這件事情的時候我們有時候根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府他要怎麼做\n825485\t826285\t在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到\n841553\t858892\t那時候剛好也是在跟這個海委會在質詢的過程提到說他們可能在觀光方面可能在產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談那等於用共產黨典型的模式用地方來包圍中央你今天中央不跟我好我地方來跟我好\n859172\t860653\t臺灣的民意代表及相關業者主動繞開民進黨政府和中國直接交流\n884302\t913051\t這下面這一段呢中國與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點來想辦法規避民進黨帶來的兩岸關係的不穩定因素啦那再來呢就是呢這個之前的陸委會其實已經提過了說照理說如果今天兩岸條例第5條的規範涉及公權力的事項沒有經過授權是不能夠簽署任何相關的協議嗎什麼等等之類的但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多譬如說他們之前呢我先把報告台的案例譬如說之前就發生過美國特定的州他就直接在討論說\n913911\t914591\t關於兩岸事務都是中央的職權\n968373\t975998\t好,謝謝沈委員好,謝謝卓院長下一位請廖先生\n","txt":"有沒有聲音有有謝謝副院長那有請院長跟那個部長謝謝那個左院長還有劉部長謝謝兩位請\n沈委員好院長好我今天的問題大概只有兩個因為我想說總質詢的時間並沒有所以我問幾個大方向因為第一個題目是跟內政部比較有關所以可能會請市方部長來回答第二個問題可能會跟部會的協調比較有關所以可能會請院長第一個問題是在\n就是因為這個新聞的關係我們都可以一直看到就是這個全社會這個防衛任性就現在這個總統府已經召開了這個第一次的會議但因為有一個這個所謂40萬名利一直被強調我昨天在國防外交委員會其實也非常多的委員來造謠就是說對於這個40萬名利的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣不斷的去提到說這是民兵又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的一個論述\n但是我們先不管說這一方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地在這邊的報導其實是非常的誤導但我總覺得這邊有幾個細項我想問一下第一個就是大概在2022年左右就是我們的管主委這那時候也是立法委員\n他在質詢的時候其實那時候有提到他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬51萬結果現在降到大概47也就是民力有減少所以也就是說當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了那我不知道是說計算的標準是現在不一樣了還是說的確我們的民防人力有減少的狀況\n謝謝沈委員的關心我非常清楚這個總統府所召開的全社會防衛任性一共有五大分組那內政部所負責的是屬於可治民利這一組那所以在內政部的管轄內我們一定要根據我們的法律上的授權我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法災害防救法還有這個替代役管理條例\n沈伯洋\n沒有把它算在內所以真正則算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右所以這個是我們很正確的一個說法提供給這個沈委員參考那確實的反而是人力上的一個減少那剛剛這個部長有提到法規其實我覺得法規還是最重要的畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少然後或者說是什麼樣的邊組是在這個民防體系裡面所以我這邊有整理這個中央主管機關我們最主要這四種不同的這個\n民防防護團﹚架構圖﹚人數﹚全部都是民防團隊編組﹚演習扶勤支援軍事勤務辦法﹚第9條﹚17﹚18﹚19﹚21條這都是非常清楚的事情所以我不是很清楚為什麼在媒體或立法委員一直沒有去看法條所以他們完全不知道民防人力到底在哪裡\n報告沈委員我相信很多人他們大概有點斷章取義根據民防法裡面或是根據我們全社會防衛這個韌性裡面所標示的最重要的一件事情就是維持我們台灣的社會穩定也就是說我們這麼多的這個民力的部分維持台灣的社會穩定或是包括轄下的包括衛福交通或者是經濟農業等等\n臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最大的一個需要做的任務編組尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大的一個挑戰那維持臺灣社會穩定還有維持政府的正常運作然後第三個是支援軍事勤務這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範一步一步往前推進的\n謝謝部長那這邊呢但是我有一個比較小的問題就是說因為是剛剛講的我們這個在目前的民防法還有民防團隊編組的訓練演習相關條例所規定的這個內容剛剛部長也有提到但這一個圖是我上一次在總質詢的時候有問院長的那這個圖是我根據權動署的網站把它畫出來的那當然內政部最主要是負責右上角那個部分就剛剛有提到民防人力啊消防人力啊替代役啊等等之類的那我這邊想要確定一件事情就是\n因為按照權動署這樣的一個架構﹖他的一個綱領﹖他有八大計畫﹖他的右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案﹖然後有這個跟教育部比較有關的一些﹖精神動員﹖財力動員﹖等等之類的這一些動員的人﹖多少其實也是算﹖人力﹖但我不是很確定的事情就是﹖當我們在講這個40萬的時候﹖我們也把這個交通的﹖或者說今天跟這個科技動員的﹖可能速發的那些人有算進來﹖還是沒有算進來﹖\n我跟委員補充一下第一個您現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員就是全動法裡面那全動法的主政機關是國防部但是有一部分是內政部來配合的就有點像您剛所說你再問到有關科技的部分有關交通的部分有關衛生的部分那在於我們全社會防衛任性的話它就是屬於特種防護團\n也就是我們常常在提到如果是關鍵基礎設施比如說可能是台電的電廠或是中油的油廠或者是中華電信等等這些單位那他們這些單位呢就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作那就是跟我跟剛剛跟您報告的一樣在平時的時候呢他就是維持他們自己本身的運作的正常然後跟外界要提供電提供油然後提供那個有關電信的溝通這個交通等等這個部分\n沈伯洋議員\n感謝因為現在目前來講這幾個的進度我是在各部會的時候去問說這個目前的進度到什麼地方那當然我會想知道說譬如說右上角這個部分因為是內政部主責其實40萬目前的計算比較多是還是在內政部這一個就右上角這一個部分那關於這個內政部因為在2023年的時候已經有開始在盤點民防人力然後接下來可能會有一些教育上的一些這個課程的一個改寫\n還包含在最後一行這一個這邊可能有點擋到就是替代役的這一個人力的動員我去年我這還沒有進來立法院之前我有去幫替代役上過課所以呢但是這個上面這兩個目前的進度為何我可能之後在內政委員會的時候再來詢問部長\n因為這個部分我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編但因為預算編了之後有可能是比如說我們針對這個的訓練我們編大量的預算但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算它可能只是課程的變更因為原來的課程可能我們也知道可能有時候是跟這個民防沒有什麼太大的關係那如果是課程內容的修改它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊所以關於這個細項我可能到內政委員會的時候再來詢問\n沈伯洋議員\n教育部退場機制以後給內政部納管我們會把大部分替代役訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理這部分比較多會落在訓練跟教材的經費我想這也非常重要目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個\n致安維護組以及消防應變組這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分所以未來不管是訓練也好或是教材也好或是一部分的設備我們都要希望透過114年的預算把它補充這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛任性裡面也協助現在的警消或者一警一消做一部分的工作上面的支援\n謝謝部長因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的這個改變很重要那希望錢能夠花在島口上那接下來我想問一下就是第二個問題這可能最主要是要問院長了就是中國威脅的問題那這邊呢中國威脅呢這個我在這一個最近我們針對中國的威脅把它分成幾個主要的面向\n包含軍事威脅﹚社會上的滲透﹚輿論的影響﹚左上角所謂的經濟的影響﹚政治整入的滲透﹚還包含法律戰﹚外交戰等等之類的在這邊我發現在台灣的法規在盤點的時候我們發現我們對於經濟安保這個部分經濟安全這個部分保護的是稍微比較少一點我們經濟部隊產業當然也是比較保護\n2019 年日本已經從經濟安保法有一系列法律不斷通過這部分對於中國有關的滲透應對不一定那麼得當我先從幾個小例子開始這個例子其實非常的小這個例子是有人在網路上分享他是說他這個新兵要去當兵的路上\n結果呢 這個 看到這個遊覽車上面在放這個解放軍啊 裡面說為共產主義奮鬥終生那我們去稍微想了一下就是說這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生第一個 它如果是國防部直接包的車發生那當然我們要問國防部說它在包車的時候它到底是有沒有去注意這件事情但它也有可能只是單純 譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車然後遊覽車來載他們然後可能是要往來這一個高鐵站\n但也有可能是地方政府的民政局可能兵役科他們在新兵入伍的時候地方政府本來就會有專車然後帶他們到特定的地點所以它可能會地方政府的事也有可能是府委自己的事也有可能是國防部的事但我在這邊想要問的就是說因為這件事情它非常非常的細我們以往的譬如說按照我們新的自動安全管理法我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用啊什麼等等之類有資安威脅的啊但是跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係雖然它也是個產品它就只是個影片\n好 謝謝\n報告委員經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項當然就是現在國家會積極的來維護國家安全重要的一環那很多的威脅有形的無形的我覺得無形的威脅文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行的\n像剛剛委員所提到這個案例我們知道他是在9月23號臺中市政府在載送一些經典朋友們這個義南的一個車輛上面現在的說明是說司機自行但是我是認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題剛剛委員也非常的清楚說我們又有法律的嚴肅的這個看這個問題也許\n沈伯洋\n我每希望說未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候對於這種行為人的行為注意的太陽我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面的適合的文字來做一些說明而不是用直接的裁判我想我們可以繼續這樣的努力但是總之這種努力是全面但是總還會有一些漏洞中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞才能完全執行\n這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集就我們所知道他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去所以國防部還沒有接收的時候是前半截是臺中市政府的兵役徵集\n沈伯洋\n謝謝那因為呢對我來講就是說呢他不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題但一旦是我們在契約上面或者說我們並沒有去規範的時候他本來就有這個空間可以去做但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到他是地方政府那地方政府來做這件事情的時候我們有時候根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府他要怎麼做\n在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到\n那時候剛好也是在跟這個海委會在質詢的過程提到說他們可能在觀光方面可能在產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談那等於用共產黨典型的模式用地方來包圍中央你今天中央不跟我好我地方來跟我好\n臺灣的民意代表及相關業者主動繞開民進黨政府和中國直接交流\n這下面這一段呢中國與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點來想辦法規避民進黨帶來的兩岸關係的不穩定因素啦那再來呢就是呢這個之前的陸委會其實已經提過了說照理說如果今天兩岸條例第5條的規範涉及公權力的事項沒有經過授權是不能夠簽署任何相關的協議嗎什麼等等之類的但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多譬如說他們之前呢我先把報告台的案例譬如說之前就發生過美國特定的州他就直接在討論說\n關於兩岸事務都是中央的職權\n好,謝謝沈委員好,謝謝卓院長下一位請廖先生\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:16.786 --> 00:24.315\n有沒有聲音有有謝謝副院長那有請院長跟那個部長謝謝那個左院長還有劉部長謝謝兩位請\n\n00:36.502 --> 00:55.651\n沈委員好院長好我今天的問題大概只有兩個因為我想說總質詢的時間並沒有所以我問幾個大方向因為第一個題目是跟內政部比較有關所以可能會請市方部長來回答第二個問題可能會跟部會的協調比較有關所以可能會請院長第一個問題是在\n\n00:59.940 --> 01:27.755\n就是因為這個新聞的關係我們都可以一直看到就是這個全社會這個防衛任性就現在這個總統府已經召開了這個第一次的會議但因為有一個這個所謂40萬名利一直被強調我昨天在國防外交委員會其實也非常多的委員來造謠就是說對於這個40萬名利的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣不斷的去提到說這是民兵又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的一個論述\n\n01:29.476 --> 01:45.414\n但是我們先不管說這一方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地在這邊的報導其實是非常的誤導但我總覺得這邊有幾個細項我想問一下第一個就是大概在2022年左右就是我們的管主委這那時候也是立法委員\n\n01:45.994 --> 02:09.947\n他在質詢的時候其實那時候有提到他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬51萬結果現在降到大概47也就是民力有減少所以也就是說當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了那我不知道是說計算的標準是現在不一樣了還是說的確我們的民防人力有減少的狀況\n\n02:11.484 --> 02:32.121\n謝謝沈委員的關心我非常清楚這個總統府所召開的全社會防衛任性一共有五大分組那內政部所負責的是屬於可治民利這一組那所以在內政部的管轄內我們一定要根據我們的法律上的授權我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法災害防救法還有這個替代役管理條例\n\n02:32.722 --> 02:32.922\n沈伯洋\n\n02:56.625 --> 03:22.017\n沒有把它算在內所以真正則算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右所以這個是我們很正確的一個說法提供給這個沈委員參考那確實的反而是人力上的一個減少那剛剛這個部長有提到法規其實我覺得法規還是最重要的畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少然後或者說是什麼樣的邊組是在這個民防體系裡面所以我這邊有整理這個中央主管機關我們最主要這四種不同的這個\n\n03:22.737 --> 03:48.644\n民防防護團﹚架構圖﹚人數﹚全部都是民防團隊編組﹚演習扶勤支援軍事勤務辦法﹚第9條﹚17﹚18﹚19﹚21條這都是非常清楚的事情所以我不是很清楚為什麼在媒體或立法委員一直沒有去看法條所以他們完全不知道民防人力到底在哪裡\n\n03:49.604 --> 04:09.217\n報告沈委員我相信很多人他們大概有點斷章取義根據民防法裡面或是根據我們全社會防衛這個韌性裡面所標示的最重要的一件事情就是維持我們台灣的社會穩定也就是說我們這麼多的這個民力的部分維持台灣的社會穩定或是包括轄下的包括衛福交通或者是經濟農業等等\n\n04:10.998 --> 04:33.311\n臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最大的一個需要做的任務編組尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大的一個挑戰那維持臺灣社會穩定還有維持政府的正常運作然後第三個是支援軍事勤務這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範一步一步往前推進的\n\n04:34.481 --> 05:01.318\n謝謝部長那這邊呢但是我有一個比較小的問題就是說因為是剛剛講的我們這個在目前的民防法還有民防團隊編組的訓練演習相關條例所規定的這個內容剛剛部長也有提到但這一個圖是我上一次在總質詢的時候有問院長的那這個圖是我根據權動署的網站把它畫出來的那當然內政部最主要是負責右上角那個部分就剛剛有提到民防人力啊消防人力啊替代役啊等等之類的那我這邊想要確定一件事情就是\n\n05:01.758 --> 05:29.473\n因為按照權動署這樣的一個架構﹖他的一個綱領﹖他有八大計畫﹖他的右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案﹖然後有這個跟教育部比較有關的一些﹖精神動員﹖財力動員﹖等等之類的這一些動員的人﹖多少其實也是算﹖人力﹖但我不是很確定的事情就是﹖當我們在講這個40萬的時候﹖我們也把這個交通的﹖或者說今天跟這個科技動員的﹖可能速發的那些人有算進來﹖還是沒有算進來﹖\n\n05:32.942 --> 05:55.661\n我跟委員補充一下第一個您現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員就是全動法裡面那全動法的主政機關是國防部但是有一部分是內政部來配合的就有點像您剛所說你再問到有關科技的部分有關交通的部分有關衛生的部分那在於我們全社會防衛任性的話它就是屬於特種防護團\n\n05:56.522 --> 06:25.664\n也就是我們常常在提到如果是關鍵基礎設施比如說可能是台電的電廠或是中油的油廠或者是中華電信等等這些單位那他們這些單位呢就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作那就是跟我跟剛剛跟您報告的一樣在平時的時候呢他就是維持他們自己本身的運作的正常然後跟外界要提供電提供油然後提供那個有關電信的溝通這個交通等等這個部分\n\n06:26.084 --> 06:26.284\n沈伯洋議員\n\n06:41.530 --> 07:06.394\n感謝因為現在目前來講這幾個的進度我是在各部會的時候去問說這個目前的進度到什麼地方那當然我會想知道說譬如說右上角這個部分因為是內政部主責其實40萬目前的計算比較多是還是在內政部這一個就右上角這一個部分那關於這個內政部因為在2023年的時候已經有開始在盤點民防人力然後接下來可能會有一些教育上的一些這個課程的一個改寫\n\n07:07.199 --> 07:21.506\n還包含在最後一行這一個這邊可能有點擋到就是替代役的這一個人力的動員我去年我這還沒有進來立法院之前我有去幫替代役上過課所以呢但是這個上面這兩個目前的進度為何我可能之後在內政委員會的時候再來詢問部長\n\n07:22.706 --> 07:47.981\n因為這個部分我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編但因為預算編了之後有可能是比如說我們針對這個的訓練我們編大量的預算但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算它可能只是課程的變更因為原來的課程可能我們也知道可能有時候是跟這個民防沒有什麼太大的關係那如果是課程內容的修改它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊所以關於這個細項我可能到內政委員會的時候再來詢問\n\n07:48.561 --> 07:48.741\n沈伯洋議員\n\n08:11.626 --> 08:29.881\n教育部退場機制以後給內政部納管我們會把大部分替代役訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理這部分比較多會落在訓練跟教材的經費我想這也非常重要目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個\n\n08:30.861 --> 08:54.510\n致安維護組以及消防應變組這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分所以未來不管是訓練也好或是教材也好或是一部分的設備我們都要希望透過114年的預算把它補充這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛任性裡面也協助現在的警消或者一警一消做一部分的工作上面的支援\n\n08:55.510 --> 09:12.064\n謝謝部長因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的這個改變很重要那希望錢能夠花在島口上那接下來我想問一下就是第二個問題這可能最主要是要問院長了就是中國威脅的問題那這邊呢中國威脅呢這個我在這一個最近我們針對中國的威脅把它分成幾個主要的面向\n\n09:12.965 --> 09:35.614\n包含軍事威脅﹚社會上的滲透﹚輿論的影響﹚左上角所謂的經濟的影響﹚政治整入的滲透﹚還包含法律戰﹚外交戰等等之類的在這邊我發現在台灣的法規在盤點的時候我們發現我們對於經濟安保這個部分經濟安全這個部分保護的是稍微比較少一點我們經濟部隊產業當然也是比較保護\n\n09:38.515 --> 09:57.543\n2019年日本已經從經濟安保法有一系列法律不斷通過這部分對於中國有關的滲透應對不一定那麼得當我先從幾個小例子開始這個例子其實非常的小這個例子是有人在網路上分享他是說他這個新兵要去當兵的路上\n\n09:58.503 --> 10:26.532\n結果呢這個看到這個遊覽車上面在放這個解放軍啊裡面說為共產主義奮鬥終生那我們去稍微想了一下就是說這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生第一個它如果是國防部直接包的車發生那當然我們要問國防部說它在包車的時候它到底是有沒有去注意這件事情但它也有可能只是單純譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車然後遊覽車來載他們然後可能是要往來這一個高鐵站\n\n10:27.412 --> 10:57.210\n但也有可能是地方政府的民政局可能兵役科他們在新兵入伍的時候地方政府本來就會有專車然後帶他們到特定的地點所以它可能會地方政府的事也有可能是府委自己的事也有可能是國防部的事但我在這邊想要問的就是說因為這件事情它非常非常的細我們以往的譬如說按照我們新的自動安全管理法我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用啊什麼等等之類有資安威脅的啊但是跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係雖然它也是個產品它就只是個影片\n\n10:57.390 --> 10:57.410\n好謝謝\n\n11:26.135 --> 11:45.412\n報告委員經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項當然就是現在國家會積極的來維護國家安全重要的一環那很多的威脅有形的無形的我覺得無形的威脅文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行的\n\n11:46.144 --> 12:07.276\n像剛剛委員所提到這個案例我們知道他是在9月23號臺中市政府在載送一些經典朋友們這個義南的一個車輛上面現在的說明是說司機自行但是我是認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題剛剛委員也非常的清楚說我們又有法律的嚴肅的這個看這個問題也許\n\n12:09.718 --> 12:09.858\n沈伯洋\n\n12:22.972 --> 12:48.397\n我每希望說未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候對於這種行為人的行為注意的太陽我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面的適合的文字來做一些說明而不是用直接的裁判我想我們可以繼續這樣的努力但是總之這種努力是全面但是總還會有一些漏洞中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞才能完全執行\n\n12:51.086 --> 13:07.231\n這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集就我們所知道他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去所以國防部還沒有接收的時候是前半截是臺中市政府的兵役徵集\n\n13:08.651 --> 13:08.952\n沈伯洋\n\n13:25.933 --> 13:44.785\n謝謝那因為呢對我來講就是說呢他不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題但一旦是我們在契約上面或者說我們並沒有去規範的時候他本來就有這個空間可以去做但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到他是地方政府那地方政府來做這件事情的時候我們有時候根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府他要怎麼做\n\n13:45.485 --> 13:46.285\n在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到\n\n14:01.553 --> 14:18.892\n那時候剛好也是在跟這個海委會在質詢的過程提到說他們可能在觀光方面可能在產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談那等於用共產黨典型的模式用地方來包圍中央你今天中央不跟我好我地方來跟我好\n\n14:19.172 --> 14:20.653\n臺灣的民意代表及相關業者主動繞開民進黨政府和中國直接交流\n\n14:44.302 --> 15:13.051\n這下面這一段呢中國與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點來想辦法規避民進黨帶來的兩岸關係的不穩定因素啦那再來呢就是呢這個之前的陸委會其實已經提過了說照理說如果今天兩岸條例第5條的規範涉及公權力的事項沒有經過授權是不能夠簽署任何相關的協議嗎什麼等等之類的但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多譬如說他們之前呢我先把報告台的案例譬如說之前就發生過美國特定的州他就直接在討論說\n\n15:13.911 --> 15:14.591\n關於兩岸事務都是中央的職權\n\n16:08.373 --> 16:15.998\n好,謝謝沈委員好,謝謝卓院長下一位請廖先生\n\n","segments":[{"start":16.786,"end":24.315,"text":"有沒有聲音有有謝謝副院長那有請院長跟那個部長謝謝那個左院長還有劉部長謝謝兩位請"},{"start":36.502,"end":55.651,"text":"沈委員好院長好我今天的問題大概只有兩個因為我想說總質詢的時間並沒有所以我問幾個大方向因為第一個題目是跟內政部比較有關所以可能會請市方部長來回答第二個問題可能會跟部會的協調比較有關所以可能會請院長第一個問題是在"},{"start":59.94,"end":87.755,"text":"就是因為這個新聞的關係我們都可以一直看到就是這個全社會這個防衛任性就現在這個總統府已經召開了這個第一次的會議但因為有一個這個所謂40萬名利一直被強調我昨天在國防外交委員會其實也非常多的委員來造謠就是說對於這個40萬名利的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣不斷的去提到說這是民兵又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的一個論述"},{"start":89.476,"end":105.414,"text":"但是我們先不管說這一方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地在這邊的報導其實是非常的誤導但我總覺得這邊有幾個細項我想問一下第一個就是大概在2022年左右就是我們的管主委這那時候也是立法委員"},{"start":105.994,"end":129.947,"text":"他在質詢的時候其實那時候有提到他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬51萬結果現在降到大概47也就是民力有減少所以也就是說當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了那我不知道是說計算的標準是現在不一樣了還是說的確我們的民防人力有減少的狀況"},{"start":131.484,"end":152.121,"text":"謝謝沈委員的關心我非常清楚這個總統府所召開的全社會防衛任性一共有五大分組那內政部所負責的是屬於可治民利這一組那所以在內政部的管轄內我們一定要根據我們的法律上的授權我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法災害防救法還有這個替代役管理條例"},{"start":152.722,"end":152.922,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":176.625,"end":202.017,"text":"沒有把它算在內所以真正則算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右所以這個是我們很正確的一個說法提供給這個沈委員參考那確實的反而是人力上的一個減少那剛剛這個部長有提到法規其實我覺得法規還是最重要的畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少然後或者說是什麼樣的邊組是在這個民防體系裡面所以我這邊有整理這個中央主管機關我們最主要這四種不同的這個"},{"start":202.737,"end":228.644,"text":"民防防護團﹚架構圖﹚人數﹚全部都是民防團隊編組﹚演習扶勤支援軍事勤務辦法﹚第9條﹚17﹚18﹚19﹚21條這都是非常清楚的事情所以我不是很清楚為什麼在媒體或立法委員一直沒有去看法條所以他們完全不知道民防人力到底在哪裡"},{"start":229.604,"end":249.217,"text":"報告沈委員我相信很多人他們大概有點斷章取義根據民防法裡面或是根據我們全社會防衛這個韌性裡面所標示的最重要的一件事情就是維持我們台灣的社會穩定也就是說我們這麼多的這個民力的部分維持台灣的社會穩定或是包括轄下的包括衛福交通或者是經濟農業等等"},{"start":250.998,"end":273.311,"text":"臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最大的一個需要做的任務編組尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大的一個挑戰那維持臺灣社會穩定還有維持政府的正常運作然後第三個是支援軍事勤務這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範一步一步往前推進的"},{"start":274.481,"end":301.318,"text":"謝謝部長那這邊呢但是我有一個比較小的問題就是說因為是剛剛講的我們這個在目前的民防法還有民防團隊編組的訓練演習相關條例所規定的這個內容剛剛部長也有提到但這一個圖是我上一次在總質詢的時候有問院長的那這個圖是我根據權動署的網站把它畫出來的那當然內政部最主要是負責右上角那個部分就剛剛有提到民防人力啊消防人力啊替代役啊等等之類的那我這邊想要確定一件事情就是"},{"start":301.758,"end":329.473,"text":"因為按照權動署這樣的一個架構﹖他的一個綱領﹖他有八大計畫﹖他的右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案﹖然後有這個跟教育部比較有關的一些﹖精神動員﹖財力動員﹖等等之類的這一些動員的人﹖多少其實也是算﹖人力﹖但我不是很確定的事情就是﹖當我們在講這個40萬的時候﹖我們也把這個交通的﹖或者說今天跟這個科技動員的﹖可能速發的那些人有算進來﹖還是沒有算進來﹖"},{"start":332.942,"end":355.661,"text":"我跟委員補充一下第一個您現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員就是全動法裡面那全動法的主政機關是國防部但是有一部分是內政部來配合的就有點像您剛所說你再問到有關科技的部分有關交通的部分有關衛生的部分那在於我們全社會防衛任性的話它就是屬於特種防護團"},{"start":356.522,"end":385.664,"text":"也就是我們常常在提到如果是關鍵基礎設施比如說可能是台電的電廠或是中油的油廠或者是中華電信等等這些單位那他們這些單位呢就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作那就是跟我跟剛剛跟您報告的一樣在平時的時候呢他就是維持他們自己本身的運作的正常然後跟外界要提供電提供油然後提供那個有關電信的溝通這個交通等等這個部分"},{"start":386.084,"end":386.284,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":401.53,"end":426.394,"text":"感謝因為現在目前來講這幾個的進度我是在各部會的時候去問說這個目前的進度到什麼地方那當然我會想知道說譬如說右上角這個部分因為是內政部主責其實40萬目前的計算比較多是還是在內政部這一個就右上角這一個部分那關於這個內政部因為在2023年的時候已經有開始在盤點民防人力然後接下來可能會有一些教育上的一些這個課程的一個改寫"},{"start":427.199,"end":441.506,"text":"還包含在最後一行這一個這邊可能有點擋到就是替代役的這一個人力的動員我去年我這還沒有進來立法院之前我有去幫替代役上過課所以呢但是這個上面這兩個目前的進度為何我可能之後在內政委員會的時候再來詢問部長"},{"start":442.706,"end":467.981,"text":"因為這個部分我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編但因為預算編了之後有可能是比如說我們針對這個的訓練我們編大量的預算但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算它可能只是課程的變更因為原來的課程可能我們也知道可能有時候是跟這個民防沒有什麼太大的關係那如果是課程內容的修改它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊所以關於這個細項我可能到內政委員會的時候再來詢問"},{"start":468.561,"end":468.741,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":491.626,"end":509.881,"text":"教育部退場機制以後給內政部納管我們會把大部分替代役訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理這部分比較多會落在訓練跟教材的經費我想這也非常重要目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個"},{"start":510.861,"end":534.51,"text":"致安維護組以及消防應變組這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分所以未來不管是訓練也好或是教材也好或是一部分的設備我們都要希望透過114年的預算把它補充這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛任性裡面也協助現在的警消或者一警一消做一部分的工作上面的支援"},{"start":535.51,"end":552.064,"text":"謝謝部長因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的這個改變很重要那希望錢能夠花在島口上那接下來我想問一下就是第二個問題這可能最主要是要問院長了就是中國威脅的問題那這邊呢中國威脅呢這個我在這一個最近我們針對中國的威脅把它分成幾個主要的面向"},{"start":552.965,"end":575.614,"text":"包含軍事威脅﹚社會上的滲透﹚輿論的影響﹚左上角所謂的經濟的影響﹚政治整入的滲透﹚還包含法律戰﹚外交戰等等之類的在這邊我發現在台灣的法規在盤點的時候我們發現我們對於經濟安保這個部分經濟安全這個部分保護的是稍微比較少一點我們經濟部隊產業當然也是比較保護"},{"start":578.515,"end":597.543,"text":"2019 年日本已經從經濟安保法有一系列法律不斷通過這部分對於中國有關的滲透應對不一定那麼得當我先從幾個小例子開始這個例子其實非常的小這個例子是有人在網路上分享他是說他這個新兵要去當兵的路上"},{"start":598.503,"end":626.532,"text":"結果呢 這個 看到這個遊覽車上面在放這個解放軍啊 裡面說為共產主義奮鬥終生那我們去稍微想了一下就是說這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生第一個 它如果是國防部直接包的車發生那當然我們要問國防部說它在包車的時候它到底是有沒有去注意這件事情但它也有可能只是單純 譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車然後遊覽車來載他們然後可能是要往來這一個高鐵站"},{"start":627.412,"end":657.21,"text":"但也有可能是地方政府的民政局可能兵役科他們在新兵入伍的時候地方政府本來就會有專車然後帶他們到特定的地點所以它可能會地方政府的事也有可能是府委自己的事也有可能是國防部的事但我在這邊想要問的就是說因為這件事情它非常非常的細我們以往的譬如說按照我們新的自動安全管理法我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用啊什麼等等之類有資安威脅的啊但是跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係雖然它也是個產品它就只是個影片"},{"start":657.39,"end":657.41,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":686.135,"end":705.412,"text":"報告委員經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項當然就是現在國家會積極的來維護國家安全重要的一環那很多的威脅有形的無形的我覺得無形的威脅文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行的"},{"start":706.144,"end":727.276,"text":"像剛剛委員所提到這個案例我們知道他是在9月23號臺中市政府在載送一些經典朋友們這個義南的一個車輛上面現在的說明是說司機自行但是我是認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題剛剛委員也非常的清楚說我們又有法律的嚴肅的這個看這個問題也許"},{"start":729.718,"end":729.858,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":742.972,"end":768.397,"text":"我每希望說未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候對於這種行為人的行為注意的太陽我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面的適合的文字來做一些說明而不是用直接的裁判我想我們可以繼續這樣的努力但是總之這種努力是全面但是總還會有一些漏洞中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞才能完全執行"},{"start":771.086,"end":787.231,"text":"這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集就我們所知道他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去所以國防部還沒有接收的時候是前半截是臺中市政府的兵役徵集"},{"start":788.651,"end":788.952,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":805.933,"end":824.785,"text":"謝謝那因為呢對我來講就是說呢他不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題但一旦是我們在契約上面或者說我們並沒有去規範的時候他本來就有這個空間可以去做但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到他是地方政府那地方政府來做這件事情的時候我們有時候根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府他要怎麼做"},{"start":825.485,"end":826.285,"text":"在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到"},{"start":841.553,"end":858.892,"text":"那時候剛好也是在跟這個海委會在質詢的過程提到說他們可能在觀光方面可能在產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談那等於用共產黨典型的模式用地方來包圍中央你今天中央不跟我好我地方來跟我好"},{"start":859.172,"end":860.653,"text":"臺灣的民意代表及相關業者主動繞開民進黨政府和中國直接交流"},{"start":884.302,"end":913.051,"text":"這下面這一段呢中國與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點來想辦法規避民進黨帶來的兩岸關係的不穩定因素啦那再來呢就是呢這個之前的陸委會其實已經提過了說照理說如果今天兩岸條例第5條的規範涉及公權力的事項沒有經過授權是不能夠簽署任何相關的協議嗎什麼等等之類的但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多譬如說他們之前呢我先把報告台的案例譬如說之前就發生過美國特定的州他就直接在討論說"},{"start":913.911,"end":914.591,"text":"關於兩岸事務都是中央的職權"},{"start":968.373,"end":975.998,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員好,謝謝卓院長下一位請廖先生"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:16:45 - 09:33:02","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":155243,"gazette":{"lineno":57,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時17分）謝謝副院長，有請卓院長和劉部長，謝謝。"],["主席：卓院長還有劉部長，兩位請。"],["卓院長榮泰：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：院長好。我今天的問題大概只有兩個，因為我想總質詢的時間並沒有很多，所以就問幾個大方向。","第一個題目跟內政部比較有關，所以可能會請世芳部長來回答，第二個問題跟部會的協調比較有關，所以可能會請院長回答。","第一個問題是，因為新聞的關係，我們都可以一直看到總統府已經召開了全社會防衛靭性委員會的第一次會議，其中有一個所謂的「40萬民力」一直被強調，我昨天在外交及國防委員會，其實也有非常多委員來造謠，就是對於這個40萬民力的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣。他們不斷提到這是民兵，又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的論述，但是我們先不管這方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子，因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地的報導其實非常誤導。","我總覺得這邊有幾個細項想問一下，第一個就是大概在2022年左右，我們的管主委當時也是立法委員，其實他那時候在質詢時有提到，他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬，結果現在降到47萬，也就是民力有減少。所以也就是說，當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候，看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了。我不知道是現在的計算標準不一樣了，還是我們的民防人力的確有減少的狀況？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝沈委員的關心，也非常清楚，總統府所召開的全社會防衛靭性委員會會議一共有五大分組，內政部所負責的是屬於可恃民力這一組，所以在內政部的管轄內，我們一定要根據法律上的授權。我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法、災害防救法和替代役管理條例，如果再延伸的話，可以跟警察法、消防法一起來折算。按照這樣子的方式，包括民防民力整編的部分落在警消為主，所以我們算出來，基本上再加上一部分是屬於志願團體像志工團體這一些，我們志工團體所酌算的比較不多，也就是說，他如果平常只有上課2小時、4小時，我們都沒有把他算在內，所以真正折算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右，這是我們很正確的一個說法，提供給沈委員參考。"],["沈委員伯洋：確實可能反而是人力上的減少。剛剛部長有提到法規，其實我覺得法規還是最重要的，畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少，或者是什麼樣的編組在這個民防體系裡面。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我這邊有整理中央主管機關最主要有這四種民防的防護團，以及它的架構圖、裡面的人數，這個下面全部都是民防團隊編組訓練演習服勤及支援軍事勤務辦法，這個是第九條，這個是第十七條、第十八條、第十九條，這個是第二十一條。其實這都是非常清楚的事情，所以我不是很清楚為什麼不管是在媒體上面，或者我們有些立法委員一直沒有去看法條，所以他們根本完全不知道這個民防人力到底在哪裡。"],["劉部長世芳：是，報告沈委員，我相信很多人大概有點斷章取義，根據民防法或是根據全社會防衛韌性裡面所標示的，最重要的一件事情就是維持我們臺灣的社會穩定，也就是我們這麼多民力的部分，維持臺灣的社會穩定，或是轄下包括衛福、交通或者是經濟、農業等等，臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最需要做的任務編組，尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大一個挑戰，維持臺灣社會穩定，還有維持政府的正常運作，第三個是支援軍事勤務，這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚。所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範，一步一步往前推進的。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。但是在這邊我有一個比較小的問題，因為這是剛剛講的在目前的民防法，還有民防團隊編組的訓練、演習相關條例所規定的內容，剛剛部長也有提到，但這一個圖是我上一次在總質詢的時候，有問院長的，這個圖是我根據全動署的網站把它畫出來的，當然內政部最主要是負責右上角那個部分，就剛剛有提到民防人力、消防人力、替代役等等之類的。我這邊想要確定一件事情，因為按照全動署這樣的架構及綱領，它有八大計畫，右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案，有跟教育部比較有關的一些精神動員、財力動員等等之類的，這一些動員的人多少其實也是算人力，但我不是很確定的事情就是當我們在講這一個40萬的時候，我們有把交通的人力，或者今天跟科技動員的，可能是數發的那些人，有算進來還是沒有算進來？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員補充一下，第一個，你現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員，就是全動法裡面，全動法的主政機關是國防部，但是有一部分是內政部來配合的，就有點像您剛所說，您問到有關科技的部分、有關交通的部分、有關衛生的部分，在於我們全社會防衛韌性的話，它就是屬於特種防護團，也就是我們常常提到如果是關鍵基礎設施，譬如可能是台電的電廠，或是中油的油廠，或者是中華電信等等這些單位，他們這些單位就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練，成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作，就跟我剛剛跟您報告的一樣，在平時的時候，他們就是維持他們自己本身運作的正常，跟外界要提供電、提供油，然後提供有關電信的溝通或是交通等等這個部分，但是如果碰到有些大規模的損害，或是其他所謂軍事上面的部分，特種防護團就需要結合有關兵力或是有關民防裡面組成不同的三軌或是兩軌的機制來共同防禦外侮。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝，因為目前來講，這幾個的進度，我是詢問各部會目前的進度到什麼地方，當然我會想知道譬如右上角這個部分，因為是內政部主責，其實40萬目前的計算比較多還是在內政部，就是右上角這一個部分，因為在2023年的時候，內政部已經有開始在盤點民防人力，接下來可能會有教育上一些課程的改寫，還包含在最後一行，就是替代役人力的動員，去年我在還沒有進來立法院之前，我有去幫替代役上過課，但是上面這兩個目前的進度為何？我可能之後在內政委員會的時候，再來詢問部長，因為這個部分，我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編，但因為預算編了之後，有可能是我們針對這個訓練編大量的預算，但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算，它可能只是課程的變更，因為原來的課程，我們也知道可能有時候是跟民防沒有什麼太大的關係，如果是課程內容的修改，它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊，所以關於這個細項，我可能到內政委員會的時候，再來詢問部長。"],["劉部長世芳：不過我這邊補充一下，有關於替代役的部分，大概分成現役跟備役，有關現役跟備役的部分，我們在檢討之後，發現現在的課程其實有需要精進的地方，所以也非常謝謝行政院，他們願意動用一部分的經費，讓我們在做訓練上面的加強，這一部分也許我們未來在譬如說中州，那個是從教育部退場機制以後給內政部來納管的，我們會把大部分替代役的訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理，這一部分大概比較多會落在訓練的經費上面，訓練跟教材的經費，我想這個也非常的重要。目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個，大概就是治安維護組以及消防應變組，這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分，所以未來不管是訓練也好，或是教材也好，或是一部分的設備，我們都希望透過114年的預算把它補充，這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛韌性裡面，也協助現在的警消或者義警、義消做一部分工作上面的支援。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的改變很重要，希望錢能夠花在刀口上。接下來我想問一下第二個問題，這可能最主要是要問院長，就是中國威脅的問題，最近我們針對中國的威脅，把它分成幾個主要的面向，包含軍事的威脅、社會上的一些滲透、輿論的影響，左上角這邊是所謂經濟的影響、政治的滲透，還包含法律戰、外交戰等等之類的。我發現臺灣的法規在盤點的時候，我們對於經濟安保、經濟安全這個部分，保護的是稍微比較少一點，那我們經濟部對產業當然也是比較保護，像2019年日本大概就已經從經濟安保法開始有一系列的法律不斷地通過，這個部分我們對於中國有關的滲透可能應對的不一定那麼得當。","我先從幾個小例子開始，這個例子其實非常的小，這個例子是有人在網路上分享，他是說新兵要去當兵的路上，結果看到遊覽車上面在放解放軍裡面的「為共產主義奮鬥終身」，我們稍微想了一下這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生，第一個，它如果是國防部直接包的車發生，那當然我們要問國防部說，他在包車的時候，他到底有沒有去注意這件事情，但他也有可能只是單純，譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委，然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車，然後遊覽車來載他們，可能是要往來高鐵站，但也有可能是地方政府的民政局，可能兵役科，他們在新兵入伍的時候，地方政府本來就會有專車，然後帶他們到特定的地點，所以它可能會是地方政府的事，也有可能是輔委自己的事，也有可能是國防部的事。但我在這邊想要問的就是說，因為這件事情它非常非常的細，以往譬如說按照我們新的資通安全管理法，我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用什麼等等之類，會有資安威脅，但是這個跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係，雖然它也是個產品，它就只是個影片而已，如果我們直接用法律，立法院這邊立一個法，在法律上直接去規範說你的影片可能要播什麼，我覺得這個也是過分了，所以我就一直在想說行政院這一邊，在各個不同的契約，就是當我們今天不管是有標案，還是有跟任何外部團體簽約的時候，在約定的條款裡面，到底有沒有可能去防堵這一類的事情發生？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項，當然就是現在國家會積極地來維護國家安全重要的一環，那很多的威脅，有形的、無形的，我覺得無形的威脅、文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行。像剛剛委員所提到的這個案例，我們知道它是在9月23號，臺中市政府在載送一些青年朋友們、役男的一個車輛上面，現在的說明是說司機自行，但是我認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題。剛剛委員也非常清楚的說，我們用法律來嚴肅看這個問題，也許還沒有辦法來執行，但是我們在各種跟民間的契約合作當中，比如說採購，我們一定會要求不能是來自中國的任何產品，不只是資安的問題而已，還會有很大的問題。我們也希望未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候，對於這種行為人的行為注意的態樣，我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面以適合的文字來做一些說明，而不是用直接的裁罰，我想我們可以繼續這樣努力。總之這種努力是全面，但是總還會有一些漏洞，中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞，才能完全執行。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝院長，那這個……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集，就我們所知道，他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去，所以國防部還沒有接收的時候，前半截是臺中市政府兵役徵集產生的一些誤導的部分，我們現在已經請地方政府在處理有關兵役徵集時要特別注意這個部分，同時沈委員也非常關心這會不會有可能是有一點滲透，我們會再從中瞭解到底是怎麼一回事。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。因為對我來講，它不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題，但一旦我們在契約上面並沒有去規範的時候，它本來就有這個空間可以去做。但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到它是地方政府，地方政府在做這件事情的時候，我們根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府要怎麼做，所以這邊我覺得有一點疑慮，我們現在常常會遇到，譬如說金門模式，這個在英文上，外國學者很喜歡討論的叫sub-national policy。譬如說我在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到，那時候剛好也是跟海委會質詢的過程，他們可能在觀光方面、產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談，等於就是用共產黨典型的模式，用地方包圍中央，你今天中央不跟我好，就找地方來跟我好，只要地方來跟我好了之後，我就可以告訴全國的民眾說，你看這個地方現在多繁榮，它願意跟中國談。","所以我稍微去盤點了一下，這個在央視旗下的「玉淵譚天」，這是他們非常有名的一個類似社論的方向，他們的研究提到「臺灣民意代表及相關從業者主動繞開民進黨政府，和中國直接交流」，它直接明擺著說我們要這樣做。下面這一段又指出「大陸與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點，來想辦法規避民進黨當局帶來的兩岸關係不穩定因素」。","再來就是陸委會之前已經提過的，照理說，如果今天兩岸條例第五條的規範是涉及公權力事項，倘若未獲政府授權，不得簽署任何相關協議等等之類的，但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多，我先繞開臺海的案例，譬如說之前在美國特定的州就發生過，他們直接討論到這個州要不要直接把中國的國慶也訂為該州的假日，如果臺灣發生這樣的事情，我們該怎麼辦？也就是說有愈來愈多的事情都涉及到中國這種統戰公權力的行使，地方政府去答應說是我們自己來談就好了，但按照陸委會之前的說法這個是不存續的，但是它如果真的做了我們該怎麼辦？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，有關兩岸的事務都是中央的職權，相關協議的落實都在中央政府。對於金門模式可能帶來對金門地方政府過度依賴中國大陸，我們都會跟地方政府去示警，這對未來的產業都是有危害的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我認為違反這個可能要有相關的法制，我現在在研擬這些，所以希望到最後也有院版，或者我們跟陸委會的法制處來做一些相關的……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，行政院跟陸委會都會很重視這個問題，謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}}