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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,149 --> 00:00:25,669\n有請海洋委員會主委有請原委會主委海洋委員會主委海洋委員會管主委請備詢管主委好\n\n2\n00:00:27,149 --> 00:00:54,883\n昨天下午蘭嶼相公所有舉辦一個直播也就是關於我們巴貝多吉有一個說明會對擱淺的事情那我後來就詢問我們環保也就是衛環的環境部的官員他說這不是他們管轄的事情說是屬於海洋委員會他說沒有成立危機應變小組所以他們不便介入我想說你這件事情的後續你的作為是什麼\n\n3\n00:00:56,303 --> 00:01:20,959\n謝謝盧委員的關心跟盧委員報告這艘船是海難事件根據我們的災害防救它的應變中心是由交通部的航港局他們來主持召開但是我們海洋委員會的海保署在裡面是非常重要的一個小組因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件最重要的就是污染污染的防治希望這個污染防治能夠不要影響他們明年飛魚季的一個捕獲\n\n4\n00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:37,559\n對所以我們今天早上已經開始抽油那跟委員報告就是說在這個整個過程當中在風雨交加的時候我們就都日以繼夜的在把物資集中你知道當初的船員是誰是誰來救他們或者是誰給他們提供物資或者是食材嗎\n\n5\n00:01:38,520 --> 00:02:07,290\n這一次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊然後把19個人吊掛救回來救回來以後呢因為這一艘船它擱淺那擱淺以後就斷掉了那好在就是說它斷的這個地方呢不是遊艙的地方那我的意思就是說後續的污染的事情能夠盡量能夠預防因為它是蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊的地點\n\n6\n00:02:08,150 --> 00:02:19,834\n我們非常非常的憂心那也非常非常的努力都做到生意半夜好謝謝那有請行政院長麻煩請行政院主委院長備詢院長好路委員好曾主委你知道明天有23位主任要到辦公室找我嗎我知道是關於\n\n7\n00:02:38,101 --> 00:03:03,206\n關於什麼事情應該是坎納卡納夫族的族群委員的事情對當然不是只有坎納卡納夫的成員有表達強烈的不滿那希望你心裡面能夠接受因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選是他們開過會他們認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案\n\n8\n00:03:04,522 --> 00:03:05,924\n因為我知道民進黨是執政黨所以我\n\n9\n00:03:20,339 --> 00:03:35,587\n很客氣的提了兩個推薦可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由也沒有把優劣或者說你們禁用的人是因為是什麼樣的原因而禁用也沒有給本席一個答案\n\n10\n00:03:36,581 --> 00:04:01,527\n我會跟委員報告提出來的這個人選我們沒有什麼黨派的這個考慮希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情這兩個族群找我提供的名單都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會認為這個人最適合我們才會提報上去我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報啊所以我的意思是說你當時用了A你應該告訴我這A是\n\n11\n00:04:02,347 --> 00:04:08,991\n行政院長我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民主健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過也在6月21號公佈他要有一個專責單位管理我們原住民主健康\n\n12\n00:04:30,403 --> 00:04:30,923\n盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n\n13\n00:04:48,770 --> 00:04:58,894\n謝謝委員我會請主委跟委員多多的請教如何來提升原住民族朋友在健康的問題因為委員是醫生很了解這個事情\n\n14\n00:05:06,025 --> 00:05:28,423\n當然我今天的主題是在還是在進法補償是但因為很多委員都提過不過還是要再提我的論述我們台灣的地形的關係那目前我先考一個問題好了主委你知道我們森林覆蓋是多少幾萬公頃嗎森林覆蓋森林覆蓋台灣的森林覆蓋的範圍\n\n15\n00:05:29,656 --> 00:05:36,721\n210萬公頃將近六成臺灣大概都是在這樣的範圍原名會有11萬我們原住民的是大概7.2萬左右如果今年會增加到7.7也就是18萬在所有森林裡面210萬裡面的18萬公頃也沒有很多\n\n16\n00:05:55,134 --> 00:05:55,154\n盧縣一\n\n17\n00:06:16,874 --> 00:06:41,661\n因為當初舊好茶要辦到新好茶的時候很多老人家說不能辦到新好茶因為那是以前是湖泊那是因為我們幾千年生活在這個土地的一個智慧結果沒有多久它不是整個都滅村了嗎現在已經遷到你那裡舊好茶的命運就是因為我們後來的政府沒有去採納我們原住民的智慧啊不是嗎\n\n18\n00:06:43,612 --> 00:07:11,839\n才會一而再再而三的遷徙一直到現在的李娜理好那我們一再而三的講進法補償就是他是補償不是補助他的原則是這樣不是嗎是好那我們從2015年說兩萬塊一公頃好我來調高到三萬塊那我我知道主委院長一直一直在說你願意接受四萬塊那請問你的四萬塊的論調是什麼你的基礎是什麼\n\n19\n00:07:12,660 --> 00:07:14,722\n我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼\n\n20\n00:07:41,457 --> 00:08:08,762\n我認為循序漸進可以達到慢慢的達到那樣的一個境界跟地步當初我們在還在委員會的時候在討論的時候我有提出一個論述待會會說那我們先從碳會開始講好了碳會我們昨天有公佈也就是10月7號我們環境部有公佈我們碳會是一公噸300塊可是我在看文獻的時候有一個文獻叫做WorldBank也就是世界銀行的\n\n21\n00:08:09,369 --> 00:08:36,232\n他在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳匯的錢是9塊美金也就是說他比我們提早好幾個月知道說我們的我們的匯率是多少那我們還要還要等環境部來公佈嗎好他9塊錢就算了但我們當然是這可以接受從低到高可是我們比大陸還還還低北京是15塊然後最高的是我們要跟最高的比的話是烏拉圭是167塊\n\n22\n00:08:37,543 --> 00:09:03,312\n你烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎不是所以我的意思是說你們在無論在計算這個費用或者是說做這個評比的時候你們都沒有原住民的一個委員在裡面我知道3月13號有公佈21名的審議委員探費的審議委員裡面沒有一個專家學者或者是人民團體是原住民代表\n\n23\n00:09:03,888 --> 00:09:32,591\n那燙費這麼一個重要的事情我希望明年度的一個委員裡面能夠採納一個原住民的專家學者可以嗎院長我會跟環境部本部長來研究如果讓現在如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去那麼未來在組織在人員在調整的過程當中我們能夠多多聽聽各位各方的聲音從剛剛那個圖表是說世界上各國的一個燙費的\n\n24\n00:09:34,413 --> 00:09:56,763\n規範的從幾塊錢到一百多塊多也就是參加幾十倍也就是說這個市場還是個新興的市場那我們從一個圖表來看的二零二零一五年到二零一九年才短短的四年時間已經翻翻了好幾倍他的平均值也就是說如果我們就講進法補償我為什麼會或者說為什麼會有這樣子一個趨勢\n\n25\n00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:29,024\n是以前低估了現在我們是不過是讓他能夠恢復到正常的一個所謂的補償那為什麼呢我從以下幾個論述來看他第一個他還是在生計的時候尋求生計的時候森林作為一個生活場域的時候他可以佔了一般就是落後國家比如說新巴威啦或者是一些他上面所表列的國家他森林可以負擔他40%以上的生活條件\n\n26\n00:10:29,701 --> 00:10:57,577\n好第二個也就是說如果他是商機的時候如果一個企業家他認為這個森林他覆蓋了很多也許他裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或者說他可以從裡面竊取很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發他的價值可以從好可以從裡面沒有關係可是他可以到9177塊每公頃的美金也就是說這是他的商機的部分那如果說就間接的一個間接的所謂的\n\n27\n00:10:59,658 --> 00:11:24,652\n價值的話如果他是一個水域的保護或者說水質的一個品質保證的話他大概可以落在800多塊或者200多塊這樣的一個區塊這是一公頃美金的一個價格這是水域或者是供水的一個value那如果就CO2二氧化碳一個碳的存底來看的話下一頁\n\n28\n00:11:26,564 --> 00:11:54,824\n他大概就落在一公頃是兩千美金這是2001年的一個研究也就是說我們長期低估了探底存在這個生理那個這個市場這樣的一個價值所以我們一直都沒有認為說這個生理的保護是多麼重要可是現在這是一個世界的一個所謂的趨勢大家要去知道說原來這個他的價值是在這裡因為他是有維護我們\n\n29\n00:11:56,452 --> 00:12:23,022\n這個生態阿或者是說避免暖化這些一個他的優厚的力量所以他的價格是這樣阿如果說他是原始的2830阿如果是變成後來變成轉農作的話會會變成790然後permanent如果變成農業的話變成630阿如果是牧場會變成630630630對那意思說如果他是沒有沒有耕作的話他大概都在2000塊左右的一個價值\n\n30\n00:12:25,014 --> 00:12:54,083\n那我是上次我們在委員會討論的時候是提了這個論述最後一個就是在他圖表就是他所謂的optionvalue就是說有些國家是進步到說他已經有些力能的概念或者說他有環保的意識他認為他可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林他用這樣的概念去算的話其實這個所謂的間接的價值也存在\n\n31\n00:12:54,642 --> 00:13:21,528\n所以他這個價值呢可以到5塊錢可以到12塊美金所以他的total在最後一頁你看他有所謂的當然不要講伐木當然有他的價值可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話那個所謂的climatebenefit就沒有了所以也就是說你這邊是1000然後這樣加加種種加上他的一些休憩加上一些他的生物多樣性或者是說\n\n32\n00:13:22,663 --> 00:13:23,063\n盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n\n33\n00:13:50,373 --> 00:14:12,827\n院長你一個概念就是說我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的而且你知道進化補償是105年才開始那105年以前呢我們一直都是這個森林的主人是這個土地的主人我們沒有說我們要求那麼多我們是從現在開始先補足而且我們這次的修法的重點是每兩年調整一次不是你講的明天就調到12萬\n\n34\n00:14:14,226 --> 00:14:14,306\n主委\n\n35\n00:14:42,635 --> 00:14:49,058\n盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?\n\n36\n00:15:12,677 --> 00:15:24,243\n所以我們的世界觀裡面我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人希望你能夠再三的而三的去想一下你自己的思維可以嗎是謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n149\t25669\t有請海洋委員會主委有請原委會主委海洋委員會主委海洋委員會管主委請備詢管主委好\n27149\t54883\t昨天下午蘭嶼相公所有舉辦一個直播也就是關於我們巴貝多吉有一個說明會對 擱淺的事情那我後來就詢問我們環保也就是衛環的環境部的官員他說這不是他們管轄的事情說是屬於海洋委員會他說沒有成立危機應變小組所以他們不便介入我想說你這件事情的後續你的作為是什麼\n56303\t80959\t謝謝盧委員的關心跟盧委員報告這艘船是海難事件根據我們的災害防救它的應變中心是由交通部的航港局他們來主持召開但是我們海洋委員會的海保署在裡面是非常重要的一個小組因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件最重要的就是污染 污染的防治希望這個污染防治能夠不要影響他們明年飛魚季的一個捕獲\n81839\t97559\t對所以我們今天早上已經開始抽油那跟委員報告就是說在這個整個過程當中在風雨交加的時候我們就都日以繼夜的在把物資集中你知道當初的船員是誰是誰來救他們或者是誰給他們提供物資或者是食材嗎\n98520\t127290\t這一次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊然後把19個人吊掛救回來救回來以後呢因為這一艘船它擱淺那擱淺以後就斷掉了那好在就是說它斷的這個地方呢不是遊艙的地方那我的意思就是說後續的污染的事情能夠盡量能夠預防因為它是蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊的地點\n128150\t139834\t我們非常非常的憂心那也非常非常的努力都做到生意半夜好謝謝那有請行政院長麻煩請行政院主委院長備詢院長好 路委員好曾主委你知道明天有23位主任要到辦公室找我嗎我知道是關於\n158101\t183206\t關於什麼事情應該是坎納卡納夫族的族群委員的事情對當然不是只有坎納卡納夫的成員有表達強烈的不滿那希望你心裡面能夠接受因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選是他們開過會他們認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案\n184522\t185924\t因為我知道民進黨是執政黨所以我\n200339\t215587\t很客氣的提了兩個推薦可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由也沒有把優劣或者說你們禁用的人是因為是什麼樣的原因而禁用也沒有給本席一個答案\n216581\t241527\t我會跟委員報告提出來的這個人選我們沒有什麼黨派的這個考慮希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情這兩個族群找我提供的名單都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會認為這個人最適合我們才會提報上去我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報啊所以我的意思是說你當時用了A你應該告訴我這A是\n242347\t248991\t行政院長我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民主健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過也在6月21號公佈他要有一個專責單位管理我們原住民主健康\n270403\t270923\t盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n288770\t298894\t謝謝委員我會請主委跟委員多多的請教如何來提升原住民族朋友在健康的問題因為委員是醫生很了解這個事情\n306025\t328423\t當然我今天的主題是在還是在進法補償是但因為很多委員都提過不過還是要再提我的論述我們台灣的地形的關係那目前我先考一個問題好了主委你知道我們森林覆蓋是多少幾萬公頃嗎森林覆蓋森林覆蓋台灣的森林覆蓋的範圍\n329656\t336721\t210萬公頃將近六成臺灣大概都是在這樣的範圍原名會有11萬我們原住民的是大概7.2萬左右如果今年會增加到7.7也就是18萬在所有森林裡面210萬裡面的18萬公頃也沒有很多\n355134\t355154\t盧縣一\n376874\t401661\t因為當初舊好茶要辦到新好茶的時候很多老人家說不能辦到新好茶因為那是以前是湖泊那是因為我們幾千年生活在這個土地的一個智慧結果沒有多久它不是整個都滅村了嗎現在已經遷到你那裡舊好茶的命運就是因為我們後來的政府沒有去採納我們原住民的智慧啊不是嗎\n403612\t431839\t才會一而再再而三的遷徙一直到現在的李娜理好那我們一再而三的講進法補償就是他是補償不是補助他的原則是這樣不是嗎是好那我們從2015年說兩萬塊一公頃好我來調高到三萬塊那我我知道主委院長一直一直在說你願意接受四萬塊那請問你的四萬塊的論調是什麼你的基礎是什麼\n432660\t434722\t我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼\n461457\t488762\t我認為循序漸進可以達到慢慢的達到那樣的一個境界跟地步當初我們在還在委員會的時候在討論的時候我有提出一個論述待會會說那我們先從碳會開始講好了碳會我們昨天有公佈也就是10月7號我們環境部有公佈我們碳會是一公噸300塊可是我在看文獻的時候有一個文獻叫做World Bank也就是世界銀行的\n489369\t516232\t他在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳匯的錢是9塊美金也就是說他比我們提早好幾個月知道說我們的我們的匯率是多少那我們還要還要等環境部來公佈嗎好他9塊錢就算了但我們當然是這可以接受從低到高可是我們比大陸還還還低北京是15塊然後最高的是我們要跟最高的比的話是烏拉圭是167塊\n517543\t543312\t你烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎不是所以我的意思是說你們在無論在計算這個費用或者是說做這個評比的時候你們都沒有原住民的一個委員在裡面我知道3月13號有公佈21名的審議委員探費的審議委員裡面沒有一個專家學者或者是人民團體是原住民代表\n543888\t572591\t那燙費這麼一個重要的事情我希望明年度的一個委員裡面能夠採納一個原住民的專家學者可以嗎 院長我會跟環境部本部長來研究如果讓現在如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去那麼未來在組織在人員在調整的過程當中我們能夠多多聽聽各位各方的聲音從剛剛那個圖表是說世界上各國的一個燙費的\n574413\t596763\t規範的從幾塊錢到一百多塊多也就是參加幾十倍也就是說這個市場還是個新興的市場那我們從一個圖表來看的二零二零一五年到二零一九年才短短的四年時間已經翻翻了好幾倍他的平均值也就是說如果我們就講進法補償我為什麼會或者說為什麼會有這樣子一個趨勢\n599480\t629024\t是以前低估了現在我們是不過是讓他能夠恢復到正常的一個所謂的補償那為什麼呢我從以下幾個論述來看他第一個他還是在生計的時候尋求生計的時候森林作為一個生活場域的時候他可以佔了一般就是落後國家比如說新巴威啦或者是一些他上面所表列的國家他森林可以負擔他40%以上的生活條件\n629701\t657577\t好 第二個也就是說如果他是商機的時候如果一個企業家他認為這個森林他覆蓋了很多也許他裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或者說他可以從裡面竊取很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發他的價值可以從好 可以從裡面沒有關係可是他可以到9177塊每公頃的美金也就是說這是他的商機的部分那如果說就間接的一個間接的所謂的\n659658\t684652\t價值的話如果他是一個水域的保護或者說水質的一個品質保證的話他大概可以落在800多塊或者200多塊這樣的一個區塊這是一公頃美金的一個價格這是水域或者是供水的一個value那如果就CO2二氧化碳一個碳的存底來看的話下一頁\n686564\t714824\t他大概就落在一公頃是兩千美金這是2001年的一個研究也就是說我們長期低估了探底存在這個生理那個這個市場這樣的一個價值所以我們一直都沒有認為說這個生理的保護是多麼重要可是現在這是一個世界的一個所謂的趨勢大家要去知道說原來這個他的價值是在這裡因為他是有維護我們\n716452\t743022\t這個生態阿或者是說避免暖化這些一個他的優厚的力量所以他的價格是這樣阿如果說他是原始的2830阿如果是變成後來變成轉農作的話會會變成790然後permanent如果變成農業的話變成630阿如果是牧場會變成630630630對那意思說如果他是沒有沒有耕作的話他大概都在2000塊左右的一個價值\n745014\t774083\t那我是上次我們在委員會討論的時候是提了這個論述最後一個就是在他圖表就是他所謂的option value就是說有些國家是進步到說他已經有些力能的概念或者說他有環保的意識他認為他可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林他用這樣的概念去算的話其實這個所謂的間接的價值也存在\n774642\t801528\t所以他這個價值呢可以到5塊錢可以到12塊美金所以他的total在最後一頁你看他有所謂的當然不要講伐木當然有他的價值可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話那個所謂的climate benefit就沒有了所以也就是說你這邊是1000然後這樣加加種種加上他的一些休憩加上一些他的生物多樣性或者是說\n802663\t803063\t盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n830373\t852827\t院長你一個概念就是說我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的而且你知道進化補償是105年才開始那105年以前呢我們一直都是這個森林的主人是這個土地的主人我們沒有說我們要求那麼多我們是從現在開始先補足而且我們這次的修法的重點是每兩年調整一次不是你講的明天就調到12萬\n854226\t854306\t主委\n882635\t889058\t盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?\n912677\t924243\t所以我們的世界觀裡面我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人希望你能夠再三的而三的去想一下你自己的思維可以嗎是謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"有請海洋委員會主委有請原委會主委海洋委員會主委海洋委員會管主委請備詢管主委好\n昨天下午蘭嶼相公所有舉辦一個直播也就是關於我們巴貝多吉有一個說明會對 擱淺的事情那我後來就詢問我們環保也就是衛環的環境部的官員他說這不是他們管轄的事情說是屬於海洋委員會他說沒有成立危機應變小組所以他們不便介入我想說你這件事情的後續你的作為是什麼\n謝謝盧委員的關心跟盧委員報告這艘船是海難事件根據我們的災害防救它的應變中心是由交通部的航港局他們來主持召開但是我們海洋委員會的海保署在裡面是非常重要的一個小組因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件最重要的就是污染 污染的防治希望這個污染防治能夠不要影響他們明年飛魚季的一個捕獲\n對所以我們今天早上已經開始抽油那跟委員報告就是說在這個整個過程當中在風雨交加的時候我們就都日以繼夜的在把物資集中你知道當初的船員是誰是誰來救他們或者是誰給他們提供物資或者是食材嗎\n這一次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊然後把19個人吊掛救回來救回來以後呢因為這一艘船它擱淺那擱淺以後就斷掉了那好在就是說它斷的這個地方呢不是遊艙的地方那我的意思就是說後續的污染的事情能夠盡量能夠預防因為它是蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊的地點\n我們非常非常的憂心那也非常非常的努力都做到生意半夜好謝謝那有請行政院長麻煩請行政院主委院長備詢院長好 路委員好曾主委你知道明天有23位主任要到辦公室找我嗎我知道是關於\n關於什麼事情應該是坎納卡納夫族的族群委員的事情對當然不是只有坎納卡納夫的成員有表達強烈的不滿那希望你心裡面能夠接受因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選是他們開過會他們認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案\n因為我知道民進黨是執政黨所以我\n很客氣的提了兩個推薦可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由也沒有把優劣或者說你們禁用的人是因為是什麼樣的原因而禁用也沒有給本席一個答案\n我會跟委員報告提出來的這個人選我們沒有什麼黨派的這個考慮希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情這兩個族群找我提供的名單都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會認為這個人最適合我們才會提報上去我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報啊所以我的意思是說你當時用了A你應該告訴我這A是\n行政院長我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民主健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過也在6月21號公佈他要有一個專責單位管理我們原住民主健康\n盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n謝謝委員我會請主委跟委員多多的請教如何來提升原住民族朋友在健康的問題因為委員是醫生很了解這個事情\n當然我今天的主題是在還是在進法補償是但因為很多委員都提過不過還是要再提我的論述我們台灣的地形的關係那目前我先考一個問題好了主委你知道我們森林覆蓋是多少幾萬公頃嗎森林覆蓋森林覆蓋台灣的森林覆蓋的範圍\n210萬公頃將近六成臺灣大概都是在這樣的範圍原名會有11萬我們原住民的是大概7.2萬左右如果今年會增加到7.7也就是18萬在所有森林裡面210萬裡面的18萬公頃也沒有很多\n盧縣一\n因為當初舊好茶要辦到新好茶的時候很多老人家說不能辦到新好茶因為那是以前是湖泊那是因為我們幾千年生活在這個土地的一個智慧結果沒有多久它不是整個都滅村了嗎現在已經遷到你那裡舊好茶的命運就是因為我們後來的政府沒有去採納我們原住民的智慧啊不是嗎\n才會一而再再而三的遷徙一直到現在的李娜理好那我們一再而三的講進法補償就是他是補償不是補助他的原則是這樣不是嗎是好那我們從2015年說兩萬塊一公頃好我來調高到三萬塊那我我知道主委院長一直一直在說你願意接受四萬塊那請問你的四萬塊的論調是什麼你的基礎是什麼\n我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼\n我認為循序漸進可以達到慢慢的達到那樣的一個境界跟地步當初我們在還在委員會的時候在討論的時候我有提出一個論述待會會說那我們先從碳會開始講好了碳會我們昨天有公佈也就是10月7號我們環境部有公佈我們碳會是一公噸300塊可是我在看文獻的時候有一個文獻叫做World Bank也就是世界銀行的\n他在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳匯的錢是9塊美金也就是說他比我們提早好幾個月知道說我們的我們的匯率是多少那我們還要還要等環境部來公佈嗎好他9塊錢就算了但我們當然是這可以接受從低到高可是我們比大陸還還還低北京是15塊然後最高的是我們要跟最高的比的話是烏拉圭是167塊\n你烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎不是所以我的意思是說你們在無論在計算這個費用或者是說做這個評比的時候你們都沒有原住民的一個委員在裡面我知道3月13號有公佈21名的審議委員探費的審議委員裡面沒有一個專家學者或者是人民團體是原住民代表\n那燙費這麼一個重要的事情我希望明年度的一個委員裡面能夠採納一個原住民的專家學者可以嗎 院長我會跟環境部本部長來研究如果讓現在如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去那麼未來在組織在人員在調整的過程當中我們能夠多多聽聽各位各方的聲音從剛剛那個圖表是說世界上各國的一個燙費的\n規範的從幾塊錢到一百多塊多也就是參加幾十倍也就是說這個市場還是個新興的市場那我們從一個圖表來看的二零二零一五年到二零一九年才短短的四年時間已經翻翻了好幾倍他的平均值也就是說如果我們就講進法補償我為什麼會或者說為什麼會有這樣子一個趨勢\n是以前低估了現在我們是不過是讓他能夠恢復到正常的一個所謂的補償那為什麼呢我從以下幾個論述來看他第一個他還是在生計的時候尋求生計的時候森林作為一個生活場域的時候他可以佔了一般就是落後國家比如說新巴威啦或者是一些他上面所表列的國家他森林可以負擔他40%以上的生活條件\n好 第二個也就是說如果他是商機的時候如果一個企業家他認為這個森林他覆蓋了很多也許他裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或者說他可以從裡面竊取很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發他的價值可以從好 可以從裡面沒有關係可是他可以到9177塊每公頃的美金也就是說這是他的商機的部分那如果說就間接的一個間接的所謂的\n價值的話如果他是一個水域的保護或者說水質的一個品質保證的話他大概可以落在800多塊或者200多塊這樣的一個區塊這是一公頃美金的一個價格這是水域或者是供水的一個value那如果就CO2二氧化碳一個碳的存底來看的話下一頁\n他大概就落在一公頃是兩千美金這是2001年的一個研究也就是說我們長期低估了探底存在這個生理那個這個市場這樣的一個價值所以我們一直都沒有認為說這個生理的保護是多麼重要可是現在這是一個世界的一個所謂的趨勢大家要去知道說原來這個他的價值是在這裡因為他是有維護我們\n這個生態阿或者是說避免暖化這些一個他的優厚的力量所以他的價格是這樣阿如果說他是原始的2830阿如果是變成後來變成轉農作的話會會變成790然後permanent如果變成農業的話變成630阿如果是牧場會變成630630630對那意思說如果他是沒有沒有耕作的話他大概都在2000塊左右的一個價值\n那我是上次我們在委員會討論的時候是提了這個論述最後一個就是在他圖表就是他所謂的option value就是說有些國家是進步到說他已經有些力能的概念或者說他有環保的意識他認為他可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林他用這樣的概念去算的話其實這個所謂的間接的價值也存在\n所以他這個價值呢可以到5塊錢可以到12塊美金所以他的total在最後一頁你看他有所謂的當然不要講伐木當然有他的價值可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話那個所謂的climate benefit就沒有了所以也就是說你這邊是1000然後這樣加加種種加上他的一些休憩加上一些他的生物多樣性或者是說\n盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n院長你一個概念就是說我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的而且你知道進化補償是105年才開始那105年以前呢我們一直都是這個森林的主人是這個土地的主人我們沒有說我們要求那麼多我們是從現在開始先補足而且我們這次的修法的重點是每兩年調整一次不是你講的明天就調到12萬\n主委\n盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?\n所以我們的世界觀裡面我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人希望你能夠再三的而三的去想一下你自己的思維可以嗎是謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.149 --> 00:25.669\n有請海洋委員會主委有請原委會主委海洋委員會主委海洋委員會管主委請備詢管主委好\n\n00:27.149 --> 00:54.883\n昨天下午蘭嶼相公所有舉辦一個直播也就是關於我們巴貝多吉有一個說明會對擱淺的事情那我後來就詢問我們環保也就是衛環的環境部的官員他說這不是他們管轄的事情說是屬於海洋委員會他說沒有成立危機應變小組所以他們不便介入我想說你這件事情的後續你的作為是什麼\n\n00:56.303 --> 01:20.959\n謝謝盧委員的關心跟盧委員報告這艘船是海難事件根據我們的災害防救它的應變中心是由交通部的航港局他們來主持召開但是我們海洋委員會的海保署在裡面是非常重要的一個小組因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件最重要的就是污染污染的防治希望這個污染防治能夠不要影響他們明年飛魚季的一個捕獲\n\n01:21.839 --> 01:37.559\n對所以我們今天早上已經開始抽油那跟委員報告就是說在這個整個過程當中在風雨交加的時候我們就都日以繼夜的在把物資集中你知道當初的船員是誰是誰來救他們或者是誰給他們提供物資或者是食材嗎\n\n01:38.520 --> 02:07.290\n這一次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊然後把19個人吊掛救回來救回來以後呢因為這一艘船它擱淺那擱淺以後就斷掉了那好在就是說它斷的這個地方呢不是遊艙的地方那我的意思就是說後續的污染的事情能夠盡量能夠預防因為它是蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊的地點\n\n02:08.150 --> 02:19.834\n我們非常非常的憂心那也非常非常的努力都做到生意半夜好謝謝那有請行政院長麻煩請行政院主委院長備詢院長好路委員好曾主委你知道明天有23位主任要到辦公室找我嗎我知道是關於\n\n02:38.101 --> 03:03.206\n關於什麼事情應該是坎納卡納夫族的族群委員的事情對當然不是只有坎納卡納夫的成員有表達強烈的不滿那希望你心裡面能夠接受因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選是他們開過會他們認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案\n\n03:04.522 --> 03:05.924\n因為我知道民進黨是執政黨所以我\n\n03:20.339 --> 03:35.587\n很客氣的提了兩個推薦可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由也沒有把優劣或者說你們禁用的人是因為是什麼樣的原因而禁用也沒有給本席一個答案\n\n03:36.581 --> 04:01.527\n我會跟委員報告提出來的這個人選我們沒有什麼黨派的這個考慮希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情這兩個族群找我提供的名單都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會認為這個人最適合我們才會提報上去我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報啊所以我的意思是說你當時用了A你應該告訴我這A是\n\n04:02.347 --> 04:08.991\n行政院長我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民主健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過也在6月21號公佈他要有一個專責單位管理我們原住民主健康\n\n04:30.403 --> 04:30.923\n盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n\n04:48.770 --> 04:58.894\n謝謝委員我會請主委跟委員多多的請教如何來提升原住民族朋友在健康的問題因為委員是醫生很了解這個事情\n\n05:06.025 --> 05:28.423\n當然我今天的主題是在還是在進法補償是但因為很多委員都提過不過還是要再提我的論述我們台灣的地形的關係那目前我先考一個問題好了主委你知道我們森林覆蓋是多少幾萬公頃嗎森林覆蓋森林覆蓋台灣的森林覆蓋的範圍\n\n05:29.656 --> 05:36.721\n210萬公頃將近六成臺灣大概都是在這樣的範圍原名會有11萬我們原住民的是大概7.2萬左右如果今年會增加到7.7也就是18萬在所有森林裡面210萬裡面的18萬公頃也沒有很多\n\n05:55.134 --> 05:55.154\n盧縣一\n\n06:16.874 --> 06:41.661\n因為當初舊好茶要辦到新好茶的時候很多老人家說不能辦到新好茶因為那是以前是湖泊那是因為我們幾千年生活在這個土地的一個智慧結果沒有多久它不是整個都滅村了嗎現在已經遷到你那裡舊好茶的命運就是因為我們後來的政府沒有去採納我們原住民的智慧啊不是嗎\n\n06:43.612 --> 07:11.839\n才會一而再再而三的遷徙一直到現在的李娜理好那我們一再而三的講進法補償就是他是補償不是補助他的原則是這樣不是嗎是好那我們從2015年說兩萬塊一公頃好我來調高到三萬塊那我我知道主委院長一直一直在說你願意接受四萬塊那請問你的四萬塊的論調是什麼你的基礎是什麼\n\n07:12.660 --> 07:14.722\n我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼\n\n07:41.457 --> 08:08.762\n我認為循序漸進可以達到慢慢的達到那樣的一個境界跟地步當初我們在還在委員會的時候在討論的時候我有提出一個論述待會會說那我們先從碳會開始講好了碳會我們昨天有公佈也就是10月7號我們環境部有公佈我們碳會是一公噸300塊可是我在看文獻的時候有一個文獻叫做WorldBank也就是世界銀行的\n\n08:09.369 --> 08:36.232\n他在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳匯的錢是9塊美金也就是說他比我們提早好幾個月知道說我們的我們的匯率是多少那我們還要還要等環境部來公佈嗎好他9塊錢就算了但我們當然是這可以接受從低到高可是我們比大陸還還還低北京是15塊然後最高的是我們要跟最高的比的話是烏拉圭是167塊\n\n08:37.543 --> 09:03.312\n你烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎不是所以我的意思是說你們在無論在計算這個費用或者是說做這個評比的時候你們都沒有原住民的一個委員在裡面我知道3月13號有公佈21名的審議委員探費的審議委員裡面沒有一個專家學者或者是人民團體是原住民代表\n\n09:03.888 --> 09:32.591\n那燙費這麼一個重要的事情我希望明年度的一個委員裡面能夠採納一個原住民的專家學者可以嗎院長我會跟環境部本部長來研究如果讓現在如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去那麼未來在組織在人員在調整的過程當中我們能夠多多聽聽各位各方的聲音從剛剛那個圖表是說世界上各國的一個燙費的\n\n09:34.413 --> 09:56.763\n規範的從幾塊錢到一百多塊多也就是參加幾十倍也就是說這個市場還是個新興的市場那我們從一個圖表來看的二零二零一五年到二零一九年才短短的四年時間已經翻翻了好幾倍他的平均值也就是說如果我們就講進法補償我為什麼會或者說為什麼會有這樣子一個趨勢\n\n09:59.480 --> 10:29.024\n是以前低估了現在我們是不過是讓他能夠恢復到正常的一個所謂的補償那為什麼呢我從以下幾個論述來看他第一個他還是在生計的時候尋求生計的時候森林作為一個生活場域的時候他可以佔了一般就是落後國家比如說新巴威啦或者是一些他上面所表列的國家他森林可以負擔他40%以上的生活條件\n\n10:29.701 --> 10:57.577\n好第二個也就是說如果他是商機的時候如果一個企業家他認為這個森林他覆蓋了很多也許他裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或者說他可以從裡面竊取很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發他的價值可以從好可以從裡面沒有關係可是他可以到9177塊每公頃的美金也就是說這是他的商機的部分那如果說就間接的一個間接的所謂的\n\n10:59.658 --> 11:24.652\n價值的話如果他是一個水域的保護或者說水質的一個品質保證的話他大概可以落在800多塊或者200多塊這樣的一個區塊這是一公頃美金的一個價格這是水域或者是供水的一個value那如果就CO2二氧化碳一個碳的存底來看的話下一頁\n\n11:26.564 --> 11:54.824\n他大概就落在一公頃是兩千美金這是2001年的一個研究也就是說我們長期低估了探底存在這個生理那個這個市場這樣的一個價值所以我們一直都沒有認為說這個生理的保護是多麼重要可是現在這是一個世界的一個所謂的趨勢大家要去知道說原來這個他的價值是在這裡因為他是有維護我們\n\n11:56.452 --> 12:23.022\n這個生態阿或者是說避免暖化這些一個他的優厚的力量所以他的價格是這樣阿如果說他是原始的2830阿如果是變成後來變成轉農作的話會會變成790然後permanent如果變成農業的話變成630阿如果是牧場會變成630630630對那意思說如果他是沒有沒有耕作的話他大概都在2000塊左右的一個價值\n\n12:25.014 --> 12:54.083\n那我是上次我們在委員會討論的時候是提了這個論述最後一個就是在他圖表就是他所謂的optionvalue就是說有些國家是進步到說他已經有些力能的概念或者說他有環保的意識他認為他可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林他用這樣的概念去算的話其實這個所謂的間接的價值也存在\n\n12:54.642 --> 13:21.528\n所以他這個價值呢可以到5塊錢可以到12塊美金所以他的total在最後一頁你看他有所謂的當然不要講伐木當然有他的價值可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話那個所謂的climatebenefit就沒有了所以也就是說你這邊是1000然後這樣加加種種加上他的一些休憩加上一些他的生物多樣性或者是說\n\n13:22.663 --> 13:23.063\n盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一\n\n13:50.373 --> 14:12.827\n院長你一個概念就是說我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的而且你知道進化補償是105年才開始那105年以前呢我們一直都是這個森林的主人是這個土地的主人我們沒有說我們要求那麼多我們是從現在開始先補足而且我們這次的修法的重點是每兩年調整一次不是你講的明天就調到12萬\n\n14:14.226 --> 14:14.306\n主委\n\n14:42.635 --> 14:49.058\n盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?\n\n15:12.677 --> 15:24.243\n所以我們的世界觀裡面我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人希望你能夠再三的而三的去想一下你自己的思維可以嗎是謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.149,"end":25.669,"text":"有請海洋委員會主委有請原委會主委海洋委員會主委海洋委員會管主委請備詢管主委好"},{"start":27.149,"end":54.883,"text":"昨天下午蘭嶼相公所有舉辦一個直播也就是關於我們巴貝多吉有一個說明會對 擱淺的事情那我後來就詢問我們環保也就是衛環的環境部的官員他說這不是他們管轄的事情說是屬於海洋委員會他說沒有成立危機應變小組所以他們不便介入我想說你這件事情的後續你的作為是什麼"},{"start":56.303,"end":80.959,"text":"謝謝盧委員的關心跟盧委員報告這艘船是海難事件根據我們的災害防救它的應變中心是由交通部的航港局他們來主持召開但是我們海洋委員會的海保署在裡面是非常重要的一個小組因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件最重要的就是污染 污染的防治希望這個污染防治能夠不要影響他們明年飛魚季的一個捕獲"},{"start":81.839,"end":97.559,"text":"對所以我們今天早上已經開始抽油那跟委員報告就是說在這個整個過程當中在風雨交加的時候我們就都日以繼夜的在把物資集中你知道當初的船員是誰是誰來救他們或者是誰給他們提供物資或者是食材嗎"},{"start":98.52,"end":127.29,"text":"這一次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊然後把19個人吊掛救回來救回來以後呢因為這一艘船它擱淺那擱淺以後就斷掉了那好在就是說它斷的這個地方呢不是遊艙的地方那我的意思就是說後續的污染的事情能夠盡量能夠預防因為它是蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊的地點"},{"start":128.15,"end":139.834,"text":"我們非常非常的憂心那也非常非常的努力都做到生意半夜好謝謝那有請行政院長麻煩請行政院主委院長備詢院長好 路委員好曾主委你知道明天有23位主任要到辦公室找我嗎我知道是關於"},{"start":158.101,"end":183.206,"text":"關於什麼事情應該是坎納卡納夫族的族群委員的事情對當然不是只有坎納卡納夫的成員有表達強烈的不滿那希望你心裡面能夠接受因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選是他們開過會他們認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案"},{"start":184.522,"end":185.924,"text":"因為我知道民進黨是執政黨所以我"},{"start":200.339,"end":215.587,"text":"很客氣的提了兩個推薦可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由也沒有把優劣或者說你們禁用的人是因為是什麼樣的原因而禁用也沒有給本席一個答案"},{"start":216.581,"end":241.527,"text":"我會跟委員報告提出來的這個人選我們沒有什麼黨派的這個考慮希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情這兩個族群找我提供的名單都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會認為這個人最適合我們才會提報上去我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報啊所以我的意思是說你當時用了A你應該告訴我這A是"},{"start":242.347,"end":248.991,"text":"行政院長我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民主健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過也在6月21號公佈他要有一個專責單位管理我們原住民主健康"},{"start":270.403,"end":270.923,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":288.77,"end":298.894,"text":"謝謝委員我會請主委跟委員多多的請教如何來提升原住民族朋友在健康的問題因為委員是醫生很了解這個事情"},{"start":306.025,"end":328.423,"text":"當然我今天的主題是在還是在進法補償是但因為很多委員都提過不過還是要再提我的論述我們台灣的地形的關係那目前我先考一個問題好了主委你知道我們森林覆蓋是多少幾萬公頃嗎森林覆蓋森林覆蓋台灣的森林覆蓋的範圍"},{"start":329.656,"end":336.721,"text":"210萬公頃將近六成臺灣大概都是在這樣的範圍原名會有11萬我們原住民的是大概7.2萬左右如果今年會增加到7.7也就是18萬在所有森林裡面210萬裡面的18萬公頃也沒有很多"},{"start":355.134,"end":355.154,"text":"盧縣一"},{"start":376.874,"end":401.661,"text":"因為當初舊好茶要辦到新好茶的時候很多老人家說不能辦到新好茶因為那是以前是湖泊那是因為我們幾千年生活在這個土地的一個智慧結果沒有多久它不是整個都滅村了嗎現在已經遷到你那裡舊好茶的命運就是因為我們後來的政府沒有去採納我們原住民的智慧啊不是嗎"},{"start":403.612,"end":431.839,"text":"才會一而再再而三的遷徙一直到現在的李娜理好那我們一再而三的講進法補償就是他是補償不是補助他的原則是這樣不是嗎是好那我們從2015年說兩萬塊一公頃好我來調高到三萬塊那我我知道主委院長一直一直在說你願意接受四萬塊那請問你的四萬塊的論調是什麼你的基礎是什麼"},{"start":432.66,"end":434.722,"text":"我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼"},{"start":461.457,"end":488.762,"text":"我認為循序漸進可以達到慢慢的達到那樣的一個境界跟地步當初我們在還在委員會的時候在討論的時候我有提出一個論述待會會說那我們先從碳會開始講好了碳會我們昨天有公佈也就是10月7號我們環境部有公佈我們碳會是一公噸300塊可是我在看文獻的時候有一個文獻叫做World Bank也就是世界銀行的"},{"start":489.369,"end":516.232,"text":"他在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳匯的錢是9塊美金也就是說他比我們提早好幾個月知道說我們的我們的匯率是多少那我們還要還要等環境部來公佈嗎好他9塊錢就算了但我們當然是這可以接受從低到高可是我們比大陸還還還低北京是15塊然後最高的是我們要跟最高的比的話是烏拉圭是167塊"},{"start":517.543,"end":543.312,"text":"你烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎不是所以我的意思是說你們在無論在計算這個費用或者是說做這個評比的時候你們都沒有原住民的一個委員在裡面我知道3月13號有公佈21名的審議委員探費的審議委員裡面沒有一個專家學者或者是人民團體是原住民代表"},{"start":543.888,"end":572.591,"text":"那燙費這麼一個重要的事情我希望明年度的一個委員裡面能夠採納一個原住民的專家學者可以嗎 院長我會跟環境部本部長來研究如果讓現在如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去那麼未來在組織在人員在調整的過程當中我們能夠多多聽聽各位各方的聲音從剛剛那個圖表是說世界上各國的一個燙費的"},{"start":574.413,"end":596.763,"text":"規範的從幾塊錢到一百多塊多也就是參加幾十倍也就是說這個市場還是個新興的市場那我們從一個圖表來看的二零二零一五年到二零一九年才短短的四年時間已經翻翻了好幾倍他的平均值也就是說如果我們就講進法補償我為什麼會或者說為什麼會有這樣子一個趨勢"},{"start":599.48,"end":629.024,"text":"是以前低估了現在我們是不過是讓他能夠恢復到正常的一個所謂的補償那為什麼呢我從以下幾個論述來看他第一個他還是在生計的時候尋求生計的時候森林作為一個生活場域的時候他可以佔了一般就是落後國家比如說新巴威啦或者是一些他上面所表列的國家他森林可以負擔他40%以上的生活條件"},{"start":629.701,"end":657.577,"text":"好 第二個也就是說如果他是商機的時候如果一個企業家他認為這個森林他覆蓋了很多也許他裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或者說他可以從裡面竊取很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發他的價值可以從好 可以從裡面沒有關係可是他可以到9177塊每公頃的美金也就是說這是他的商機的部分那如果說就間接的一個間接的所謂的"},{"start":659.658,"end":684.652,"text":"價值的話如果他是一個水域的保護或者說水質的一個品質保證的話他大概可以落在800多塊或者200多塊這樣的一個區塊這是一公頃美金的一個價格這是水域或者是供水的一個value那如果就CO2二氧化碳一個碳的存底來看的話下一頁"},{"start":686.564,"end":714.824,"text":"他大概就落在一公頃是兩千美金這是2001年的一個研究也就是說我們長期低估了探底存在這個生理那個這個市場這樣的一個價值所以我們一直都沒有認為說這個生理的保護是多麼重要可是現在這是一個世界的一個所謂的趨勢大家要去知道說原來這個他的價值是在這裡因為他是有維護我們"},{"start":716.452,"end":743.022,"text":"這個生態阿或者是說避免暖化這些一個他的優厚的力量所以他的價格是這樣阿如果說他是原始的2830阿如果是變成後來變成轉農作的話會會變成790然後permanent如果變成農業的話變成630阿如果是牧場會變成630630630對那意思說如果他是沒有沒有耕作的話他大概都在2000塊左右的一個價值"},{"start":745.014,"end":774.083,"text":"那我是上次我們在委員會討論的時候是提了這個論述最後一個就是在他圖表就是他所謂的option value就是說有些國家是進步到說他已經有些力能的概念或者說他有環保的意識他認為他可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林他用這樣的概念去算的話其實這個所謂的間接的價值也存在"},{"start":774.642,"end":801.528,"text":"所以他這個價值呢可以到5塊錢可以到12塊美金所以他的total在最後一頁你看他有所謂的當然不要講伐木當然有他的價值可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話那個所謂的climate benefit就沒有了所以也就是說你這邊是1000然後這樣加加種種加上他的一些休憩加上一些他的生物多樣性或者是說"},{"start":802.663,"end":803.063,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":830.373,"end":852.827,"text":"院長你一個概念就是說我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的而且你知道進化補償是105年才開始那105年以前呢我們一直都是這個森林的主人是這個土地的主人我們沒有說我們要求那麼多我們是從現在開始先補足而且我們這次的修法的重點是每兩年調整一次不是你講的明天就調到12萬"},{"start":854.226,"end":854.306,"text":"主委"},{"start":882.635,"end":889.058,"text":"盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?"},{"start":912.677,"end":924.243,"text":"所以我們的世界觀裡面我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人希望你能夠再三的而三的去想一下你自己的思維可以嗎是謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:27 - 14:45:54","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":155256,"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（14時30分）主席，有請海洋委員會主委。"],["主席：麻煩請原委會主委。"],["盧委員縣一：不是，海洋委員會主委。"],["主席：海洋委員會管主委請備詢。"],["盧委員縣一：管主委好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：昨天下午蘭嶼鄉公所有舉辦一個直播。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["盧委員縣一：也就是關於我們巴貝多籍……"],["管主任委員碧玲：有一個說明會，是。"],["盧委員縣一：對，貨輪擱淺的事情，我後來就詢問環境部的官員，他說這不是他們管轄的事情，說是屬於海洋委員會，他說沒有成立危機應變小組，所以他們不便介入，這件事情的後續，你的作為是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，謝謝盧委員的關心，跟盧委員報告，這艘船是海難事件，根據我們的災害防救，它的應變中心是由交通部航港局來主持召開，但是我們海洋委員會海保署在裡面是一個非常重要的小組……"],["盧委員縣一：因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，因為最重要的就是污染的防治。"],["盧委員縣一：希望這個污染防治能夠不要影響他們明年飛魚季的捕獲。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以我們今天早上已經開始抽油。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，在整個過程當中，在風雨交加的時候，我們都日以繼夜的在把物資集中……"],["盧委員縣一：你知道當初的船員是誰來救他們，或者是誰給他們提供物資或食材嗎？都是當地的人。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊，然後把19個人吊掛救回來，救回來以後……這一艘船擱淺，擱淺以後就斷掉了，好在它斷的這個地方不是油艙的地方……"],["盧委員縣一：沒有關係，我的意思就是後續污染的事情能夠儘量預防，因為蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊地點。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們非常非常的憂心，也非常非常的努力，都做到三更半夜。"],["盧委員縣一：是，謝謝主委，主委請回。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：有請行政院長。"],["主席：麻煩請行政院卓院長備詢。"],["盧委員縣一：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：曾主委，你知道明天有23位族人要到辦公室找我嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道。"],["盧委員縣一：是關於什麼事情？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是Kanakanavu族的族群委員的事情。"],["盧委員縣一：對，當然不是只有Kanakanavu的成員有表達強烈的不滿，希望你心裡面能夠接受，因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選，是他們開過會且認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選，可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，不是說漠視他們的提案，因為整個的族人，這麼多優秀的人才，難免會有遺珠之憾，但是我們儘量的……"],["盧委員縣一：因為我知道民進黨是執政黨，所以我很客氣的提了兩個推薦，可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法，也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由，對於把優劣或者說你們進用的人因為什麼樣的原因而進用，也沒有給本席一個答案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我會跟委員報告，提出來的人選我們沒有什麼黨派的考慮。"],["盧委員縣一：是啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：只是希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情。"],["盧委員縣一：這兩個族群找我提供的名單，都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會，認為這個人最適合，我們才會提報上去，我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我的意思是說，你當時用了A，你應該告訴我A是比B好多少，還是怎麼樣的一個優劣條件讓你進用，讓人家可以心服口服說你用了這個B。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，這個我會跟委員回報，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：OK！行政院長，我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民族健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過，也在6月21號公布，要有一個專責單位管理原住民族的健康，我一直希望這個單位能夠是司級或處級的等級，而不是現行的一個科，希望你把這件事情放在心裡面。今天不是質詢衛福部，可是原住民族健康的問題應該跟原民會也有關係，所以我在這邊提出來，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我會請主委跟委員多多請教如何提升原住民族朋友的健康問題，因為委員是醫生，很了解這個事情。"],["盧委員縣一：公布已經超過一年了，明年就要邁入第二年，希望這個專責單位能夠早點出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["盧委員縣一：好。當然我今天的主題還是在禁伐補償，這很多委員都有提過，不過我還是要再提出我的論述。臺灣因為地形關係……我先考你一個問題好了，主委，你知道我們的森林覆蓋是幾萬公頃嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：森林覆蓋？"],["盧委員縣一：對，森林覆蓋，臺灣的森林覆蓋範圍。"],["曾主任委員智勇：整個來講，大概是……"],["盧委員縣一：210萬公頃，將近六成，我們臺灣大概就是在這樣的範圍，其中原民會有11萬，原住民的大概是7.2萬左右，今年可能會增加到7.7萬，合計是18萬；210萬公頃的森林占18萬，其實也沒有很多，我最主要的用意是說，我們長期居住的地方都在山上，大家有共同的生活經驗，雖然無論到哪裡都非常不方便，可是我們的生活智慧跟生活領域，都是跟這片土地有關、跟這片山林有關，所以我們可以說是這個森林的守護者，可以這麼說，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：當初舊好茶要搬到新好茶的時候，很多老人家都說不能搬到新好茶，因為那裡以前是湖泊，那是我們幾千年生活在這片土地的一個智慧，果然沒有多久，它不就整個滅村了，現在改遷到禮納里。舊好茶的命運就是因為當初政府沒有採納我們原住民的智慧，不是嗎？才會一而再、再而三的遷徙，一直到現在的禮納里。好，我們一再的講禁伐補償是補償不是補助，原則是這樣，不是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：從2015年說2萬塊一公頃，後來調高到3萬塊，我知道卓院長一直表示你願意接受4萬塊，請問你4萬塊的論調是什麼？你的基礎是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，任何的補償、補助跟福利措施都一樣，應該朝合理的方向去進展，但是也應該考量國家的財政，能夠循序漸進，我們很難期待一步到位。我知道再多的補償，對原住民的這種精神、領域、文化或生活都無法達成百分之百，但我們希望能夠盡最大的力量。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為循序漸進，可以慢慢的達到那樣的境界跟地步。"],["盧委員縣一：當初這個問題還在委員會討論的時候，我有提出一個論述，這我待會再說，現在我們先從碳費開始講好了。碳費昨天公布，也就是10月7號環境部公布1公噸300元，可是我發現有一個World Bank，也就是世界銀行的文獻，它在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳費是9塊美金，也就是說，它比我們提早好幾個月知道我們的費率是多少，那我們還要等環境部來公布嗎？好，它提到9塊錢就算了，當然我們可以接受從低到高，可是我們比大陸還低，北京是15塊，然後跟最高的國家相比，最高是烏拉圭的167塊，烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎？不是！我的意思是，你們無論在計算這個費用，或者在做評比的時候，都沒有原住民的委員在裡面，我知道3月13號有公布21名碳費審議委員，裡面沒有一個專家、學者或者人民團體是原住民代表。碳費這麼一個重要的事情，我希望明年度的委員裡面，能夠採納一位原住民的專家、學者。院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟環境部彭部長來研究，如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去，未來在組織、人員調整的過程當中，我們能夠多多聽聽各方的聲音。"],["盧委員縣一：從剛才那個圖表，也就是說世界上各國碳費的規範，從幾塊錢到一百多塊都有，相差幾十倍，也就是說這個市場也是一個新興市場。我們從一個圖表來看，2015年到2019年，才短短4年的時間，它的平均值已經翻了好幾倍。如果我們就講禁伐補償，為什麼會doubling或者說為什麼會有這樣的趨勢？是以前低估了，現在我們不過是讓它能夠恢復到所謂正常的補償，為什麼呢？我從以下幾個論述來看，第一個，它還是在尋求生計的時候，森林作為一個生活場域的時候，它可以占一般落後國家，比如說辛巴威或者是一些它上面所表列的國家，森林可以負擔40%以上的生活條件。第二個，它是商機的時候，如果一個企業家認為這個森林覆蓋了很多，也許它裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或生物，他可以從裡面取得很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發，它的價值可以從零沒有關係，可是它可以到每公頃9,177塊美金，也就是說這是他的商機部分；就間接價值的話，如果它是一個水域的保護或者水質的品質保證的話，它大概可以落在八百多塊或是兩百多塊這樣的一個區塊，這是一公頃美金的價格，就是水域或者是供水的value；如果就CO2（二氧化碳）碳的存底來看的話，它大概就落在一公頃是2,000美金，這是2001年的研究。也就是說，我們長期低估了碳存底在森林的市場價值，我們一直都沒有認為森林的保護是多麼重要。只是現在這是一個所謂的世界趨勢，大家要去知道說原來它的價值是在這裡，因為它有維護我們的生態，或者說是避免暖化有這些優厚的力量，所以它的價格是這樣，如果說它是原始林的話是2,830；如果後來變成轉農作的話會變成790，然後permanent，如果變成農業的話，變成630；如果是牧場會變成630；我的意思是說，如果它是沒有耕作的話，大概都在2,000塊左右的價值，上次我們在委員會討論的時候我提了這個論述。","最後一個就是在圖表所謂的option value，就是有些國家是進步到它已經有些綠能的概念，或者說它有環保的意識，它認為可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林，它用這樣的概念去算的話，其實所謂的間接價值也存在，所以它這個價值可以到5塊錢也可以到12塊美金。它的total在最後一頁table 6，你看它有所謂的……當然不要講伐木，伐木當然有它的價值，可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話，所謂climate的benefit就沒有了，也就是說你這邊是1,000，然後這樣子加加總總，加上它的一些休憩，加上一些它的生物多樣性，或者是我們剛才所說的間接價值的話，遠遠超過這2,000塊美金。","所以我的意思就是說，其實當初我們在講森林價值的時候是一個多元的概念，它是一個生態的概念，我們已經走到這個地步，我們不可能再走回頭路，再去按照這個國家合理的推算，然後應該是要到4萬塊。我希望院長要有一個概念，我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的，而且你知道禁伐補償是105年才開始，105年以前，我們一直都是這個森林的主人、是這個土地的主人，我們沒有說我們要求那麼多，我們是從現在開始先補足，而且我們這次修法的重點是每2年調整一次，不是你講的明年就調到12萬，而且是按照物價指數再調整，也就是說，這次一次到位以後就2年以後再說，如果經濟水準沒有到那個地方也不可能再調漲。如果你有仔細看我們的法律是那樣子修正的，你可以尊重我們的想法或者是已經通過的法律。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。保護森林是大家共同的責任……"],["盧委員縣一：因為剩下1分鐘，我要講一個重點，今天最重要的，我先考一下主委，我們魯凱族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說？"],["曾主任委員智勇：乞丐？"],["盧委員縣一：嗯！"],["曾主任委員智勇：原住民的部落沒有乞丐。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我們有那個話。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們用的外來語就是臺語的「乞丐」……"],["盧委員縣一：我們魯凱跟排灣的乞丐就是kiciya，也就是閩南語來的「乞丐」。我為什麼要這麼說？因為我們原住民不是乞丐……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是。"],["盧委員縣一：我們是分享的民族。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我們的世界觀裡面、我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人，希望能夠再三地去想一下你自己的思維，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，接下來登記第11號邱議瑩委員，第12號吳沛憶委員，兩位委員質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 另定期處理─","agenda_id":"1137701_00008"}}}