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00:01:08,421\n您是不是對跨領域研究都經常不知道?\n\n5\n00:01:20,543 --> 00:01:43,655\n沒有啊,跨領域研究我很清楚你有知道可是您上任之後不斷的接到學者的陳情之前我們處理那個600位的連署就是那個永旭自然處那個我知道所以你有知道但是還讓這個600多位連署好幾位院士出來因為他們誤會我們並沒有要改啊並沒有要所以您任內之後剛好發生的誤會都在跨領域研究\n\n6\n00:01:46,710 --> 00:02:13,542\n上次是空間跟永續我們正在處理當中今天是科技民主與社會政大這個中心剛好前任主委當時有邀我們教文的委員去我剛好在他們成立當天有去現場那覺得非常的對前主委對這個重要的問題用國科會的力量來支持我其實那時候是表達非常的感謝而且期待很高\n\n7\n00:02:14,222 --> 00:02:39,070\n請問一下這個中心成立多久您知道嗎?好像是去年4月成立對嘛6月我剛剛有再查一下不是6月10月到現在不到一年那請問您說對跨領域研究瞭解一個人設跟科技的跨領域研究您認為預算應該要擺在哪裡?\n\n8\n00:02:41,459 --> 00:02:41,960\n人事經費應該佔多少以上是合理的\n\n9\n00:03:01,312 --> 00:03:27,099\n這部分倒不一定因為有時候你要收集資料那你製造我們社會科學的研究人事預算佔總經費通常平均多少可能會超過一半對所以當有人質疑說人事經費居然佔超過一半的時候這不是藐視我們人文社會科學因為我們研究人類就是最重要的是有可能會超過一半難道要拿去買東西或者是拿去買器材嗎這部分我沒有質疑所以這個時候您該辯護的時候沒有辯護\n\n10\n00:03:29,239 --> 00:03:53,039\n你認為一個科技與民主臺灣現在是不是在地緣政治跟高科技民主發展的前緣?這個也重要沒有問題這是不是重要?這是不是應該用國家的力量來研究?我們重要的事情國會都會支持那國會會支持那這樣一個研究中心你覺得一年預算要多少才合理?那還要看多少人力進來研究領域因為我還不了解所以我要去瞭解\n\n11\n00:03:58,363 --> 00:04:19,814\n但是不了解就是說如果就是有人質疑的時候對不對就是說您不應該直接認同對方講的東西都是不合理的嗎不是他是在講程序上如果因為我不知道嘛我還不知道這個程序上有問題我們前主委成立一個中心程序有問題嗎我不知道嘛所以我要回去再看一下不是你不知道你但是上次齁\n\n12\n00:04:20,854 --> 00:04:37,799\n我剛好也是坐在剛好在這就是說葉元之主委問您一件您捲入的事情您也說不知道我當時其實非常的遺憾非常難過因為那件事情就是也是跟科技與民主有關就是您擔任清大副校長的時候捲入一個兩岸\n\n13\n00:04:39,690 --> 00:04:39,710\n當時我...\n\n14\n00:05:08,595 --> 00:05:18,063\n不是我主管的業務所以我是被指派我是被指派了我事後根本沒有機會去辯駁根本沒有機會你沒有機會但你知不知道他的結局嗎我知道結局啊你居然沒有講說你是不是很委屈你還說很委屈范委員我的確委屈我還是跟你講\n\n15\n00:05:30,074 --> 00:05:31,235\n我願意去了解,我回去我會了解一下\n\n16\n00:05:52,997 --> 00:06:11,907\n兩岸與科技兩岸研究臺灣的前三名學者您知道是誰嗎?不知道所以就是科技與民主的前三位的學者您也不知道是誰嗎?我也不知道我會尊重只要按程序合法\n\n17\n00:06:13,087 --> 00:06:24,434\n今天就是說所以您有懷疑我們前主委有沒有按程序那我現在跟你講一個中心要花多少錢如果以美國安全與新興技術中心2019年在喬治政大學成立的他的創始資金就是5500萬美元那後來呢2021年到2025年\n\n18\n00:06:34,139 --> 00:06:56,630\n每年經費是1億美元,他研究包含就是AI然後就是國家跟國際安全跟新興科技的跨領域研究要了解新興技術的安全影響然後能夠協助政府進行政策分析他每年的研究經費是總經費1億美元是我們政大這個中心的多少倍您知道嗎?\n\n19\n00:06:59,260 --> 00:07:27,419\n我剛剛算了一下我們那個是4000多萬對不對平均起來是我們是人家的百分之我們是人家的百分之1.6然後他一年產生的報告平均55份我們這個中心就是我剛剛緊急去要資料他們到目前為止成立才一年已經產生超過50份的研究報告了所以我們用人家百分之\n\n20\n00:07:28,921 --> 00:07:48,982\n一點六的經費在做這樣的工作可是今天就是說因為裡面剛好有幾位就是說好像有綠色背景人社會科學我們用人口來算民進黨的支持度有超過三成吧三十八多少三個人中會有一個是綠的您不反對吧\n\n21\n00:07:50,793 --> 00:08:18,793\n關心科技與民主的這個議題中有幾位剛好有綠色背景的人而且有些像我們前主委根本沒有領薪水他是顧問耶請問主委您今天卸任之後你很重視的一個AI中心這是您心中認為最重要的卸任之後去擔任顧問你認為是一件應該被質疑的事嗎而且沒有領薪水耶我們攻擊人家去當大學董事那是領薪水的私大的耶\n\n22\n00:08:19,173 --> 00:08:45,416\n只要不違反學術倫理的我都沒有意見那這時候您居然沒有幫忙辯護我也覺得非常的遺憾因為我不瞭解所以我有說我會瞭解一下那請您好好瞭解之後我剛好要問的就是相關的問題也是跟著有關啦就是我有去問你們上次我講的也是前任幾個我看起來都非常重要跟好的研究那你們有回答有些114年預算不變\n\n23\n00:08:45,996 --> 00:08:46,356\n我們所有的計畫﹖\n\n24\n00:09:16,165 --> 00:09:16,826\n您的評估指標是可以說得出來嗎\n\n25\n00:09:40,443 --> 00:10:08,032\n重要性階段性任務執行成效後續的工作規劃等等這個我們都有既定的但是現在重要性非常的主觀我們應該找專家來評估對不對比如說科技與民主就應該是國內科技與民主的專家那這個海洋研究就應該是海洋研究永續就應該是永續我的工作就確定所有的計畫按照程序來進行所以全部都會按照程序進行\n\n26\n00:10:08,732 --> 00:10:30,053\n上一次我跟您要求的報告就是我說一週內提出決策過程然後一個月內提出應有的民主程序第三個如何保障政策與預算的連貫性可是我上次因為口誤這個一週內講成一個月那這三點我現在看起來這個澄清案真的太多了您是不是可以加速給我\n\n27\n00:10:32,005 --> 00:10:34,586\n我希望不要再接這麼多學界的陳情案了我去年擔任第一任沒有國科會的陳情案好不好\n\n28\n00:10:50,071 --> 00:10:59,121\n主委最重要是政策的連貫性因為我們沒有要為任何人任何中心辯護可是就是說這些看起來合理的事我們一定要有一個嚴謹的評估而且是專業好嗎謝謝委員我也是這樣一定要嚴謹那我會嚴格監督謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n249\t18937\t好有請吳主委范委員好主委早安喔那個主委知道我們前任主委是誰嗎吳正宗您跟我們前主委有仇嗎沒有沒有仇那你們兩位是不是沒有交接好\n20478\t43949\t有沒有交接有交接一次有交接喔那為什麼對前主委的計畫您剛剛有人回答上一次有一個是叫做精創嘛您都是回答說今天是說解釋不出來我也不知道然後上次精創也不知道我上台還幫你google了一下說這個因為我們知道前主委有做那個部分嘛\n44269\t64802\t所以為什麼商院主委很重要的他很引以為傲的計畫您都好像解釋不出來我也不知道但是上次您第一次質詢的時候我坐在這邊還去立刻幫忙講了一下我知道那是不錯的計畫但今天呢今天您剛講了說解釋不出來我也不知道您有講過嗎\n66138\t68421\t您是不是對跨領域研究都經常不知道?\n80543\t103655\t沒有啊,跨領域研究我很清楚你有知道可是您上任之後不斷的接到學者的陳情之前我們處理那個600位的連署就是那個永旭自然處那個我知道所以你有知道但是還讓這個600多位連署好幾位院士出來因為他們誤會我們並沒有要改啊並沒有要所以您任內之後剛好發生的誤會都在跨領域研究\n106710\t133542\t上次是空間跟永續我們正在處理當中今天是科技民主與社會政大這個中心剛好前任主委當時有邀我們教文的委員去我剛好在他們成立當天有去現場那覺得非常的對前主委對這個重要的問題用國科會的力量來支持我其實那時候是表達非常的感謝而且期待很高\n134222\t159070\t請問一下這個中心成立多久您知道嗎?好像是去年4月成立對嘛6月我剛剛有再查一下不是6月10月到現在不到一年那請問您說對跨領域研究瞭解一個人設跟科技的跨領域研究您認為預算應該要擺在哪裡?\n161459\t161960\t人事經費應該佔多少以上是合理的\n181312\t207099\t這部分倒不一定因為有時候你要收集資料那你製造我們社會科學的研究人事預算佔總經費通常平均多少可能會超過一半對 所以當有人質疑說人事經費居然佔超過一半的時候這不是藐視我們人文社會科學因為我們研究人類就是最重要的是有可能會超過一半難道要拿去買東西或者是拿去買器材嗎這部分我沒有質疑所以這個時候您該辯護的時候沒有辯護\n209239\t233039\t你認為一個科技與民主臺灣現在是不是在地緣政治跟高科技民主發展的前緣?這個也重要沒有問題這是不是重要?這是不是應該用國家的力量來研究?我們重要的事情國會都會支持那國會會支持那這樣一個研究中心你覺得一年預算要多少才合理?那還要看多少人力進來研究領域因為我還不了解所以我要去瞭解\n238363\t259814\t但是不了解就是說如果就是有人質疑的時候對不對就是說您不應該直接認同對方講的東西都是不合理的嗎不是他是在講程序上如果因為我不知道嘛我還不知道這個程序上有問題我們前主委成立一個中心程序有問題嗎我不知道嘛所以我要回去再看一下不是你不知道你但是上次齁\n260854\t277799\t我剛好也是坐在剛好在這就是說葉元之主委問您一件您捲入的事情您也說不知道我當時其實非常的遺憾非常難過因為那件事情就是也是跟科技與民主有關就是您擔任清大副校長的時候捲入一個兩岸\n279690\t279710\t當時我...\n308595\t318063\t不是我主管的業務所以我是被指派我是被指派了我事後根本沒有機會去辯駁根本沒有機會你沒有機會但你知不知道他的結局嗎我知道結局啊你居然沒有講說你是不是很委屈你還說很委屈范委員我的確委屈我還是跟你講\n330074\t331235\t我願意去了解,我回去我會了解一下\n352997\t371907\t兩岸與科技兩岸研究臺灣的前三名學者您知道是誰嗎?不知道所以就是科技與民主的前三位的學者您也不知道是誰嗎?我也不知道我會尊重只要按程序合法\n373087\t384434\t今天就是說所以您有懷疑我們前主委有沒有按程序那我現在跟你講一個中心要花多少錢如果以美國安全與新興技術中心2019年在喬治政大學成立的他的創始資金就是5500萬美元那後來呢2021年到2025年\n394139\t416630\t每年經費是1億美元,他研究包含就是AI然後就是國家跟國際安全跟新興科技的跨領域研究要了解新興技術的安全影響然後能夠協助政府進行政策分析他每年的研究經費是總經費1億美元是我們政大這個中心的多少倍您知道嗎?\n419260\t447419\t我剛剛算了一下我們那個是4000多萬對不對平均起來是我們是人家的百分之我們是人家的百分之1.6然後他一年產生的報告平均55份我們這個中心就是我剛剛緊急去要資料他們到目前為止成立才一年已經產生超過50份的研究報告了所以我們用人家百分之\n448921\t468982\t一點六的經費在做這樣的工作可是今天就是說因為裡面剛好有幾位就是說好像有綠色背景人社會科學我們用人口來算民進黨的支持度有超過三成吧三十八多少三個人中會有一個是綠的您不反對吧\n470793\t498793\t關心科技與民主的這個議題中有幾位剛好有綠色背景的人而且有些像我們前主委根本沒有領薪水他是顧問耶請問主委您今天卸任之後你很重視的一個AI中心這是您心中認為最重要的卸任之後去擔任顧問你認為是一件應該被質疑的事嗎而且沒有領薪水耶我們攻擊人家去當大學董事那是領薪水的私大的耶\n499173\t525416\t只要不違反學術倫理的我都沒有意見那這時候您居然沒有幫忙辯護我也覺得非常的遺憾因為我不瞭解所以我有說我會瞭解一下那請您好好瞭解之後我剛好要問的就是相關的問題也是跟著有關啦就是我有去問你們上次我講的也是前任幾個我看起來都非常重要跟好的研究那你們有回答有些114年預算不變\n525996\t526356\t我們所有的計畫﹖\n556165\t556826\t您的評估指標是可以說得出來嗎\n580443\t608032\t重要性階段性任務執行成效後續的工作規劃等等這個我們都有既定的但是現在重要性非常的主觀我們應該找專家來評估對不對比如說科技與民主就應該是國內科技與民主的專家那這個海洋研究就應該是海洋研究永續就應該是永續我的工作就確定所有的計畫按照程序來進行所以全部都會按照程序進行\n608732\t630053\t上一次我跟您要求的報告就是我說一週內提出決策過程然後一個月內提出應有的民主程序第三個如何保障政策與預算的連貫性可是我上次因為口誤這個一週內講成一個月那這三點我現在看起來這個澄清案真的太多了您是不是可以加速給我\n632005\t634586\t我希望不要再接這麼多學界的陳情案了我去年擔任第一任沒有國科會的陳情案好不好\n650071\t659121\t主委最重要是政策的連貫性因為我們沒有要為任何人任何中心辯護可是就是說這些看起來合理的事我們一定要有一個嚴謹的評估而且是專業好嗎謝謝委員我也是這樣一定要嚴謹那我會嚴格監督謝謝\n","txt":"好有請吳主委范委員好主委早安喔那個主委知道我們前任主委是誰嗎吳正宗您跟我們前主委有仇嗎沒有沒有仇那你們兩位是不是沒有交接好\n有沒有交接有交接一次有交接喔那為什麼對前主委的計畫您剛剛有人回答上一次有一個是叫做精創嘛您都是回答說今天是說解釋不出來我也不知道然後上次精創也不知道我上台還幫你google了一下說這個因為我們知道前主委有做那個部分嘛\n所以為什麼商院主委很重要的他很引以為傲的計畫您都好像解釋不出來我也不知道但是上次您第一次質詢的時候我坐在這邊還去立刻幫忙講了一下我知道那是不錯的計畫但今天呢今天您剛講了說解釋不出來我也不知道您有講過嗎\n您是不是對跨領域研究都經常不知道?\n沒有啊,跨領域研究我很清楚你有知道可是您上任之後不斷的接到學者的陳情之前我們處理那個600位的連署就是那個永旭自然處那個我知道所以你有知道但是還讓這個600多位連署好幾位院士出來因為他們誤會我們並沒有要改啊並沒有要所以您任內之後剛好發生的誤會都在跨領域研究\n上次是空間跟永續我們正在處理當中今天是科技民主與社會政大這個中心剛好前任主委當時有邀我們教文的委員去我剛好在他們成立當天有去現場那覺得非常的對前主委對這個重要的問題用國科會的力量來支持我其實那時候是表達非常的感謝而且期待很高\n請問一下這個中心成立多久您知道嗎?好像是去年4月成立對嘛6月我剛剛有再查一下不是6月10月到現在不到一年那請問您說對跨領域研究瞭解一個人設跟科技的跨領域研究您認為預算應該要擺在哪裡?\n人事經費應該佔多少以上是合理的\n這部分倒不一定因為有時候你要收集資料那你製造我們社會科學的研究人事預算佔總經費通常平均多少可能會超過一半對 所以當有人質疑說人事經費居然佔超過一半的時候這不是藐視我們人文社會科學因為我們研究人類就是最重要的是有可能會超過一半難道要拿去買東西或者是拿去買器材嗎這部分我沒有質疑所以這個時候您該辯護的時候沒有辯護\n你認為一個科技與民主臺灣現在是不是在地緣政治跟高科技民主發展的前緣?這個也重要沒有問題這是不是重要?這是不是應該用國家的力量來研究?我們重要的事情國會都會支持那國會會支持那這樣一個研究中心你覺得一年預算要多少才合理?那還要看多少人力進來研究領域因為我還不了解所以我要去瞭解\n但是不了解就是說如果就是有人質疑的時候對不對就是說您不應該直接認同對方講的東西都是不合理的嗎不是他是在講程序上如果因為我不知道嘛我還不知道這個程序上有問題我們前主委成立一個中心程序有問題嗎我不知道嘛所以我要回去再看一下不是你不知道你但是上次齁\n我剛好也是坐在剛好在這就是說葉元之主委問您一件您捲入的事情您也說不知道我當時其實非常的遺憾非常難過因為那件事情就是也是跟科技與民主有關就是您擔任清大副校長的時候捲入一個兩岸\n當時我...\n不是我主管的業務所以我是被指派我是被指派了我事後根本沒有機會去辯駁根本沒有機會你沒有機會但你知不知道他的結局嗎我知道結局啊你居然沒有講說你是不是很委屈你還說很委屈范委員我的確委屈我還是跟你講\n我願意去了解,我回去我會了解一下\n兩岸與科技兩岸研究臺灣的前三名學者您知道是誰嗎?不知道所以就是科技與民主的前三位的學者您也不知道是誰嗎?我也不知道我會尊重只要按程序合法\n今天就是說所以您有懷疑我們前主委有沒有按程序那我現在跟你講一個中心要花多少錢如果以美國安全與新興技術中心2019年在喬治政大學成立的他的創始資金就是5500萬美元那後來呢2021年到2025年\n每年經費是1億美元,他研究包含就是AI然後就是國家跟國際安全跟新興科技的跨領域研究要了解新興技術的安全影響然後能夠協助政府進行政策分析他每年的研究經費是總經費1億美元是我們政大這個中心的多少倍您知道嗎?\n我剛剛算了一下我們那個是4000多萬對不對平均起來是我們是人家的百分之我們是人家的百分之1.6然後他一年產生的報告平均55份我們這個中心就是我剛剛緊急去要資料他們到目前為止成立才一年已經產生超過50份的研究報告了所以我們用人家百分之\n一點六的經費在做這樣的工作可是今天就是說因為裡面剛好有幾位就是說好像有綠色背景人社會科學我們用人口來算民進黨的支持度有超過三成吧三十八多少三個人中會有一個是綠的您不反對吧\n關心科技與民主的這個議題中有幾位剛好有綠色背景的人而且有些像我們前主委根本沒有領薪水他是顧問耶請問主委您今天卸任之後你很重視的一個AI中心這是您心中認為最重要的卸任之後去擔任顧問你認為是一件應該被質疑的事嗎而且沒有領薪水耶我們攻擊人家去當大學董事那是領薪水的私大的耶\n只要不違反學術倫理的我都沒有意見那這時候您居然沒有幫忙辯護我也覺得非常的遺憾因為我不瞭解所以我有說我會瞭解一下那請您好好瞭解之後我剛好要問的就是相關的問題也是跟著有關啦就是我有去問你們上次我講的也是前任幾個我看起來都非常重要跟好的研究那你們有回答有些114年預算不變\n我們所有的計畫﹖\n您的評估指標是可以說得出來嗎\n重要性階段性任務執行成效後續的工作規劃等等這個我們都有既定的但是現在重要性非常的主觀我們應該找專家來評估對不對比如說科技與民主就應該是國內科技與民主的專家那這個海洋研究就應該是海洋研究永續就應該是永續我的工作就確定所有的計畫按照程序來進行所以全部都會按照程序進行\n上一次我跟您要求的報告就是我說一週內提出決策過程然後一個月內提出應有的民主程序第三個如何保障政策與預算的連貫性可是我上次因為口誤這個一週內講成一個月那這三點我現在看起來這個澄清案真的太多了您是不是可以加速給我\n我希望不要再接這麼多學界的陳情案了我去年擔任第一任沒有國科會的陳情案好不好\n主委最重要是政策的連貫性因為我們沒有要為任何人任何中心辯護可是就是說這些看起來合理的事我們一定要有一個嚴謹的評估而且是專業好嗎謝謝委員我也是這樣一定要嚴謹那我會嚴格監督謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.249 --> 00:18.937\n好有請吳主委范委員好主委早安喔那個主委知道我們前任主委是誰嗎吳正宗您跟我們前主委有仇嗎沒有沒有仇那你們兩位是不是沒有交接好\n\n00:20.478 --> 00:43.949\n有沒有交接有交接一次有交接喔那為什麼對前主委的計畫您剛剛有人回答上一次有一個是叫做精創嘛您都是回答說今天是說解釋不出來我也不知道然後上次精創也不知道我上台還幫你google了一下說這個因為我們知道前主委有做那個部分嘛\n\n00:44.269 --> 01:04.802\n所以為什麼商院主委很重要的他很引以為傲的計畫您都好像解釋不出來我也不知道但是上次您第一次質詢的時候我坐在這邊還去立刻幫忙講了一下我知道那是不錯的計畫但今天呢今天您剛講了說解釋不出來我也不知道您有講過嗎\n\n01:06.138 --> 01:08.421\n您是不是對跨領域研究都經常不知道?\n\n01:20.543 --> 01:43.655\n沒有啊,跨領域研究我很清楚你有知道可是您上任之後不斷的接到學者的陳情之前我們處理那個600位的連署就是那個永旭自然處那個我知道所以你有知道但是還讓這個600多位連署好幾位院士出來因為他們誤會我們並沒有要改啊並沒有要所以您任內之後剛好發生的誤會都在跨領域研究\n\n01:46.710 --> 02:13.542\n上次是空間跟永續我們正在處理當中今天是科技民主與社會政大這個中心剛好前任主委當時有邀我們教文的委員去我剛好在他們成立當天有去現場那覺得非常的對前主委對這個重要的問題用國科會的力量來支持我其實那時候是表達非常的感謝而且期待很高\n\n02:14.222 --> 02:39.070\n請問一下這個中心成立多久您知道嗎?好像是去年4月成立對嘛6月我剛剛有再查一下不是6月10月到現在不到一年那請問您說對跨領域研究瞭解一個人設跟科技的跨領域研究您認為預算應該要擺在哪裡?\n\n02:41.459 --> 02:41.960\n人事經費應該佔多少以上是合理的\n\n03:01.312 --> 03:27.099\n這部分倒不一定因為有時候你要收集資料那你製造我們社會科學的研究人事預算佔總經費通常平均多少可能會超過一半對所以當有人質疑說人事經費居然佔超過一半的時候這不是藐視我們人文社會科學因為我們研究人類就是最重要的是有可能會超過一半難道要拿去買東西或者是拿去買器材嗎這部分我沒有質疑所以這個時候您該辯護的時候沒有辯護\n\n03:29.239 --> 03:53.039\n你認為一個科技與民主臺灣現在是不是在地緣政治跟高科技民主發展的前緣?這個也重要沒有問題這是不是重要?這是不是應該用國家的力量來研究?我們重要的事情國會都會支持那國會會支持那這樣一個研究中心你覺得一年預算要多少才合理?那還要看多少人力進來研究領域因為我還不了解所以我要去瞭解\n\n03:58.363 --> 04:19.814\n但是不了解就是說如果就是有人質疑的時候對不對就是說您不應該直接認同對方講的東西都是不合理的嗎不是他是在講程序上如果因為我不知道嘛我還不知道這個程序上有問題我們前主委成立一個中心程序有問題嗎我不知道嘛所以我要回去再看一下不是你不知道你但是上次齁\n\n04:20.854 --> 04:37.799\n我剛好也是坐在剛好在這就是說葉元之主委問您一件您捲入的事情您也說不知道我當時其實非常的遺憾非常難過因為那件事情就是也是跟科技與民主有關就是您擔任清大副校長的時候捲入一個兩岸\n\n04:39.690 --> 04:39.710\n當時我...\n\n05:08.595 --> 05:18.063\n不是我主管的業務所以我是被指派我是被指派了我事後根本沒有機會去辯駁根本沒有機會你沒有機會但你知不知道他的結局嗎我知道結局啊你居然沒有講說你是不是很委屈你還說很委屈范委員我的確委屈我還是跟你講\n\n05:30.074 --> 05:31.235\n我願意去了解,我回去我會了解一下\n\n05:52.997 --> 06:11.907\n兩岸與科技兩岸研究臺灣的前三名學者您知道是誰嗎?不知道所以就是科技與民主的前三位的學者您也不知道是誰嗎?我也不知道我會尊重只要按程序合法\n\n06:13.087 --> 06:24.434\n今天就是說所以您有懷疑我們前主委有沒有按程序那我現在跟你講一個中心要花多少錢如果以美國安全與新興技術中心2019年在喬治政大學成立的他的創始資金就是5500萬美元那後來呢2021年到2025年\n\n06:34.139 --> 06:56.630\n每年經費是1億美元,他研究包含就是AI然後就是國家跟國際安全跟新興科技的跨領域研究要了解新興技術的安全影響然後能夠協助政府進行政策分析他每年的研究經費是總經費1億美元是我們政大這個中心的多少倍您知道嗎?\n\n06:59.260 --> 07:27.419\n我剛剛算了一下我們那個是4000多萬對不對平均起來是我們是人家的百分之我們是人家的百分之1.6然後他一年產生的報告平均55份我們這個中心就是我剛剛緊急去要資料他們到目前為止成立才一年已經產生超過50份的研究報告了所以我們用人家百分之\n\n07:28.921 --> 07:48.982\n一點六的經費在做這樣的工作可是今天就是說因為裡面剛好有幾位就是說好像有綠色背景人社會科學我們用人口來算民進黨的支持度有超過三成吧三十八多少三個人中會有一個是綠的您不反對吧\n\n07:50.793 --> 08:18.793\n關心科技與民主的這個議題中有幾位剛好有綠色背景的人而且有些像我們前主委根本沒有領薪水他是顧問耶請問主委您今天卸任之後你很重視的一個AI中心這是您心中認為最重要的卸任之後去擔任顧問你認為是一件應該被質疑的事嗎而且沒有領薪水耶我們攻擊人家去當大學董事那是領薪水的私大的耶\n\n08:19.173 --> 08:45.416\n只要不違反學術倫理的我都沒有意見那這時候您居然沒有幫忙辯護我也覺得非常的遺憾因為我不瞭解所以我有說我會瞭解一下那請您好好瞭解之後我剛好要問的就是相關的問題也是跟著有關啦就是我有去問你們上次我講的也是前任幾個我看起來都非常重要跟好的研究那你們有回答有些114年預算不變\n\n08:45.996 --> 08:46.356\n我們所有的計畫﹖\n\n09:16.165 --> 09:16.826\n您的評估指標是可以說得出來嗎\n\n09:40.443 --> 10:08.032\n重要性階段性任務執行成效後續的工作規劃等等這個我們都有既定的但是現在重要性非常的主觀我們應該找專家來評估對不對比如說科技與民主就應該是國內科技與民主的專家那這個海洋研究就應該是海洋研究永續就應該是永續我的工作就確定所有的計畫按照程序來進行所以全部都會按照程序進行\n\n10:08.732 --> 10:30.053\n上一次我跟您要求的報告就是我說一週內提出決策過程然後一個月內提出應有的民主程序第三個如何保障政策與預算的連貫性可是我上次因為口誤這個一週內講成一個月那這三點我現在看起來這個澄清案真的太多了您是不是可以加速給我\n\n10:32.005 --> 10:34.586\n我希望不要再接這麼多學界的陳情案了我去年擔任第一任沒有國科會的陳情案好不好\n\n10:50.071 --> 10:59.121\n主委最重要是政策的連貫性因為我們沒有要為任何人任何中心辯護可是就是說這些看起來合理的事我們一定要有一個嚴謹的評估而且是專業好嗎謝謝委員我也是這樣一定要嚴謹那我會嚴格監督謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.249,"end":18.937,"text":"好有請吳主委范委員好主委早安喔那個主委知道我們前任主委是誰嗎吳正宗您跟我們前主委有仇嗎沒有沒有仇那你們兩位是不是沒有交接好"},{"start":20.478,"end":43.949,"text":"有沒有交接有交接一次有交接喔那為什麼對前主委的計畫您剛剛有人回答上一次有一個是叫做精創嘛您都是回答說今天是說解釋不出來我也不知道然後上次精創也不知道我上台還幫你google了一下說這個因為我們知道前主委有做那個部分嘛"},{"start":44.269,"end":64.802,"text":"所以為什麼商院主委很重要的他很引以為傲的計畫您都好像解釋不出來我也不知道但是上次您第一次質詢的時候我坐在這邊還去立刻幫忙講了一下我知道那是不錯的計畫但今天呢今天您剛講了說解釋不出來我也不知道您有講過嗎"},{"start":66.138,"end":68.421,"text":"您是不是對跨領域研究都經常不知道?"},{"start":80.543,"end":103.655,"text":"沒有啊,跨領域研究我很清楚你有知道可是您上任之後不斷的接到學者的陳情之前我們處理那個600位的連署就是那個永旭自然處那個我知道所以你有知道但是還讓這個600多位連署好幾位院士出來因為他們誤會我們並沒有要改啊並沒有要所以您任內之後剛好發生的誤會都在跨領域研究"},{"start":106.71,"end":133.542,"text":"上次是空間跟永續我們正在處理當中今天是科技民主與社會政大這個中心剛好前任主委當時有邀我們教文的委員去我剛好在他們成立當天有去現場那覺得非常的對前主委對這個重要的問題用國科會的力量來支持我其實那時候是表達非常的感謝而且期待很高"},{"start":134.222,"end":159.07,"text":"請問一下這個中心成立多久您知道嗎?好像是去年4月成立對嘛6月我剛剛有再查一下不是6月10月到現在不到一年那請問您說對跨領域研究瞭解一個人設跟科技的跨領域研究您認為預算應該要擺在哪裡?"},{"start":161.459,"end":161.96,"text":"人事經費應該佔多少以上是合理的"},{"start":181.312,"end":207.099,"text":"這部分倒不一定因為有時候你要收集資料那你製造我們社會科學的研究人事預算佔總經費通常平均多少可能會超過一半對 所以當有人質疑說人事經費居然佔超過一半的時候這不是藐視我們人文社會科學因為我們研究人類就是最重要的是有可能會超過一半難道要拿去買東西或者是拿去買器材嗎這部分我沒有質疑所以這個時候您該辯護的時候沒有辯護"},{"start":209.239,"end":233.039,"text":"你認為一個科技與民主臺灣現在是不是在地緣政治跟高科技民主發展的前緣?這個也重要沒有問題這是不是重要?這是不是應該用國家的力量來研究?我們重要的事情國會都會支持那國會會支持那這樣一個研究中心你覺得一年預算要多少才合理?那還要看多少人力進來研究領域因為我還不了解所以我要去瞭解"},{"start":238.363,"end":259.814,"text":"但是不了解就是說如果就是有人質疑的時候對不對就是說您不應該直接認同對方講的東西都是不合理的嗎不是他是在講程序上如果因為我不知道嘛我還不知道這個程序上有問題我們前主委成立一個中心程序有問題嗎我不知道嘛所以我要回去再看一下不是你不知道你但是上次齁"},{"start":260.854,"end":277.799,"text":"我剛好也是坐在剛好在這就是說葉元之主委問您一件您捲入的事情您也說不知道我當時其實非常的遺憾非常難過因為那件事情就是也是跟科技與民主有關就是您擔任清大副校長的時候捲入一個兩岸"},{"start":279.69,"end":279.71,"text":"當時我..."},{"start":308.595,"end":318.063,"text":"不是我主管的業務所以我是被指派我是被指派了我事後根本沒有機會去辯駁根本沒有機會你沒有機會但你知不知道他的結局嗎我知道結局啊你居然沒有講說你是不是很委屈你還說很委屈范委員我的確委屈我還是跟你講"},{"start":330.074,"end":331.235,"text":"我願意去了解,我回去我會了解一下"},{"start":352.997,"end":371.907,"text":"兩岸與科技兩岸研究臺灣的前三名學者您知道是誰嗎?不知道所以就是科技與民主的前三位的學者您也不知道是誰嗎?我也不知道我會尊重只要按程序合法"},{"start":373.087,"end":384.434,"text":"今天就是說所以您有懷疑我們前主委有沒有按程序那我現在跟你講一個中心要花多少錢如果以美國安全與新興技術中心2019年在喬治政大學成立的他的創始資金就是5500萬美元那後來呢2021年到2025年"},{"start":394.139,"end":416.63,"text":"每年經費是1億美元,他研究包含就是AI然後就是國家跟國際安全跟新興科技的跨領域研究要了解新興技術的安全影響然後能夠協助政府進行政策分析他每年的研究經費是總經費1億美元是我們政大這個中心的多少倍您知道嗎?"},{"start":419.26,"end":447.419,"text":"我剛剛算了一下我們那個是4000多萬對不對平均起來是我們是人家的百分之我們是人家的百分之1.6然後他一年產生的報告平均55份我們這個中心就是我剛剛緊急去要資料他們到目前為止成立才一年已經產生超過50份的研究報告了所以我們用人家百分之"},{"start":448.921,"end":468.982,"text":"一點六的經費在做這樣的工作可是今天就是說因為裡面剛好有幾位就是說好像有綠色背景人社會科學我們用人口來算民進黨的支持度有超過三成吧三十八多少三個人中會有一個是綠的您不反對吧"},{"start":470.793,"end":498.793,"text":"關心科技與民主的這個議題中有幾位剛好有綠色背景的人而且有些像我們前主委根本沒有領薪水他是顧問耶請問主委您今天卸任之後你很重視的一個AI中心這是您心中認為最重要的卸任之後去擔任顧問你認為是一件應該被質疑的事嗎而且沒有領薪水耶我們攻擊人家去當大學董事那是領薪水的私大的耶"},{"start":499.173,"end":525.416,"text":"只要不違反學術倫理的我都沒有意見那這時候您居然沒有幫忙辯護我也覺得非常的遺憾因為我不瞭解所以我有說我會瞭解一下那請您好好瞭解之後我剛好要問的就是相關的問題也是跟著有關啦就是我有去問你們上次我講的也是前任幾個我看起來都非常重要跟好的研究那你們有回答有些114年預算不變"},{"start":525.996,"end":526.356,"text":"我們所有的計畫﹖"},{"start":556.165,"end":556.826,"text":"您的評估指標是可以說得出來嗎"},{"start":580.443,"end":608.032,"text":"重要性階段性任務執行成效後續的工作規劃等等這個我們都有既定的但是現在重要性非常的主觀我們應該找專家來評估對不對比如說科技與民主就應該是國內科技與民主的專家那這個海洋研究就應該是海洋研究永續就應該是永續我的工作就確定所有的計畫按照程序來進行所以全部都會按照程序進行"},{"start":608.732,"end":630.053,"text":"上一次我跟您要求的報告就是我說一週內提出決策過程然後一個月內提出應有的民主程序第三個如何保障政策與預算的連貫性可是我上次因為口誤這個一週內講成一個月那這三點我現在看起來這個澄清案真的太多了您是不是可以加速給我"},{"start":632.005,"end":634.586,"text":"我希望不要再接這麼多學界的陳情案了我去年擔任第一任沒有國科會的陳情案好不好"},{"start":650.071,"end":659.121,"text":"主委最重要是政策的連貫性因為我們沒有要為任何人任何中心辯護可是就是說這些看起來合理的事我們一定要有一個嚴謹的評估而且是專業好嗎謝謝委員我也是這樣一定要嚴謹那我會嚴格監督謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:41:10 - 10:52:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":155298,"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時41分）有請吳主委。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：主委早安，主委知道前任主委是誰嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳政忠。"],["范委員雲：那您跟前主委有仇嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["范委員雲：沒有仇，那你們兩位是不是沒有交接好？有沒有交接？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，有交接一次。"],["范委員雲：有交接喔？那為什麼對前主委的計畫，包括上一次有提到的晶創，您今天回答解釋不出來、我也不知道，然後上次講到晶創也說不知道，我還上臺前幫你google了一下。因為我們知道前主委有做這個部分，為什麼上任主委認為很重要的、很引以為傲的計畫，您都好像解釋不出來或是說「我也不知道」？"],["吳主任委員誠文：晶創我知道。"],["范委員雲：但是上次在您第一次備詢的時候，我坐在這邊，還立刻幫忙講了一下，我知道那是不錯的計畫，但是今天呢……"],["吳主任委員誠文：今天晶創我知道。"],["范委員雲：今天您剛剛說解釋不出來、我也不知道，你有講過嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我今天沒有講晶創我不知道，晶創我知道。"],["范委員雲：今天您講科技、民主與社會這個……"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個我的確不清楚。"],["范委員雲：所以晶創您知道，可是這個您不知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["范委員雲：好，那您是不是對跨領域研究都經常不知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有啊！跨領域研究我很清楚啊！"],["范委員雲：你很知道？可是在您上任之後，我不斷地接到學者的陳情，之前我們處理那個600位學者的連署，就是永續……"],["吳主任委員誠文：自然處那個我知道。"],["范委員雲：所以您知道，但是還讓六百多位學者連署，有好幾位院士出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為他們誤會了，我們並沒有要改啊！所以是誤會。"],["范委員雲：所以在您任內發生的誤會剛好都在跨領域研究？好，上次是空間跟永續，我們正在處理當中，今天是政大這個「科技、民主與社會研究中心」，前任主委當時有邀我們教文的委員去，我剛好在他們成立當天有去現場，我覺得前主委對於這個重要的問題用國科會的力量來支持，我其實那時候是表達非常的感謝，而且期待也很高，請問您知道這個研究中心成立多久了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好像是在去年4月成立。"],["范委員雲：是6月，我剛剛有再查一下……不是6月，應該是10月，到現在不到1年，您說對跨領域研究了解，一個人社跟科技的跨領域研究，您認為預算應該要擺在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：關於跨領域研究，如果是研究的話，應該在各個學術處裡面。"],["范委員雲：不是，我是問人事經費應該占多少？一個人文社會科學……"],["吳主任委員誠文：那要看計畫的內容。"],["范委員雲：如果要研究科技與民主，你覺得人事經費應該要占多少以上是合理的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這部分倒不一定啦！因為有時候要蒐集資料……"],["范委員雲：那你知不知道社會科學研究的人事預算占總經費通常平均是多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能會超過一半。"],["范委員雲：對，所以當有人質疑人事經費居然占超過一半的時候，這不是藐視人文社會科學嗎？因為研究人力就是最重要的，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，是有可能會超過一半。"],["范委員雲：難道要拿去買東西或者是拿去買器材嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這部分我沒有質疑。"],["范委員雲：可是您在該辯護的時候沒有辯護。關於科技與民主，您認為臺灣現在是不是在地緣政治跟高科技民主發展的前緣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個也重要，沒有問題。"],["范委員雲：這是不是重要？"],["吳主任委員誠文：重要。"],["范委員雲：這是不是應該用國家的力量來研究？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對重要的事情國科會都會支持。"],["范委員雲：OK，那國科會支持，對這樣的研究中心你覺得一年預算要多少才合理？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那還要看多少人力進來和研究的領域。"],["范委員雲：那我們可不可以看一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為我還不了解，所以我要去了解。"],["范委員雲：你不了解嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["范委員雲：你說不了解，可是有人質疑的時候，您不應該直接認同對方講都是不合理的嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，他是在講程序上，因為我還不知道……"],["范委員雲：這個程序上有問題，前主委成立一個中心，程序有問題嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不知道，所以我要再回去看一下。"],["范委員雲：你不知道？但是上次我剛好也在這裡，葉元之委員問您一件您捲入的事情，您也說不知道，我當時其實非常的遺憾、非常難過，因為那件事情也是跟科技與民主有關，就是在您擔任清大副校長的時候捲入一個兩岸……我不用再講了吧？因為您知道，後來在我們揭露之後，那個中心被罰款，應該是被陸委會罰款，因為的確是透過這個中心，是對岸政府出資在挖我們高科技的人才。您是副校長，您捲入了，然後教育部還在網站上說罰款、中心被起訴等等，在葉元之問你的時候，你也說不知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個時候並不是我主管的業務，我是被指派的……"],["范委員雲：發生這麼大的事情，結果您都不知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我事後根本沒有機會去辯駁，根本沒有機會……"],["范委員雲：你沒有機會，但是你知不知道它的結局嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我知道結局啊！"],["范委員雲：在葉元之問你的時候，你居然沒有講你是不是很委屈，你沒有說很委屈，還要我來講！"],["吳主任委員誠文：范委員，我的確委屈。我還是跟你講，那個時候我的確委屈。"],["范委員雲：你當時是副校長，在事發之後，您在質詢臺上說不知道就算了，那今天我對於你剛剛都說不知道覺得非常的遺憾，即使不知道，也不應該就這麼快就認同。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我願意去了解，我回去會了解一下。"],["范委員雲：那我們再問一下，您知道今天兩岸研究臺灣科技與民主的前三名學者是誰嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不知道。"],["范委員雲：你不知道嘛！就是研究科技與民主的前三位學者您也不知道是誰嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也不知道，我會尊重，只要是按程序合法形成的計畫。"],["范委員雲：所以您懷疑前主委有沒有按程序。我現在跟你講一個中心要花多少錢，如果以2019年美國在喬治城大學成立的安全與新興技術中心，它的創始資金是5,500萬美元，後來在2021年到2025年每年的經費是1億美元，它的研究包含AI，然後就是國家跟國際安全跟新興科技的跨領域研究，要了解新興技術的安全影響，然後能夠協助政府進行政策分析，它每年的研究總經費是1億美元，您知道是政大這個中心的多少倍嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不知道。"],["范委員雲：我剛剛算了一下，我們那個是四千多萬對不對？平均起來我們是人家的1.6%，然後它一年產生的報告平均55份，反觀我們這個中心，我剛剛緊急去要資料，他們到目前為止成立才1年，已經產生超過50份的研究報告了，所以我們用人家1.6%的經費在做這樣的工作。可是今天裡面剛好有幾位被說好像是有綠色背景的人，對社會科學我們用人口來算，民進黨的支持度有超過3成吧！有百分之三十八點多，在3個人中會有1個是綠的，您不反對吧？在關心科技與民主的這個議題中，有幾位剛好是有綠色背景的人，而且像前主委根本沒有領薪水，他是顧問。請問主委，您今天卸任之後，對你很重視的AI中心，這是您心中認為最重要的，在卸任之後去擔任顧問，你認為是一件應該被質疑的事嗎？而且沒有領薪水，我們攻擊人家去當私立大學的董事，那是有領薪水的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要是不違反學術倫理，我都沒有意見。"],["范委員雲：對，在這時候您居然沒有幫忙辯護，我也覺得非常的遺憾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為我不了解，所以我有說我會去了解一下。我並沒有……"],["范委員雲：好，那請您好好的了解。我剛好要問的問題也是跟這個有關，就是我有去問你們，上次我講的是在前主委任內有幾個我看起來都非常重要、非常好的研究，你們有回答，有些是114年預算不變，有些都不確定，其實也引發學界很大的憂慮。請問前任主委認為重要的事，譬如藍海計畫，你們說本會會支持，可是114年之後，會視情況討論，他們已經投入4年了，之後視情況討論是什麼意思？您是不是可以對所有的中程計畫跟研究中心，它也是國科會的計畫，說明評估指標是什麼？可不可以具體一點？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們所有的計畫在年度預算編列的時候，當然都要評估下年度國家的政策發展還有社會需求、產業的需求等等，然後學界的能力、人力的評估，這些我們都要做，還有它的成效，都是很公開的程序在進行，而且都不是我參與的。"],["范委員雲：那你的評估指標是可以說得出來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：說得出來，重要性、階段性、任務執行成效、後續的工作規劃等等，這個我們都有既定的，這個在辦法裡面都有。"],["范委員雲：但是像重要性就非常主觀，我們應該找專家來評估，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有專家，都是專家群在評估。"],["范委員雲：譬如科技與民主就應該是國內科技與民主的專家。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我最重要的工作就是確定……"],["范委員雲：海洋研究就應該是海洋研究，永續就應該是永續。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的工作就是確定所有的計畫按照程序來進行，所以全部都會按照程序進行。"],["范委員雲：上一次我跟您要求的報告，我說一週內提出決策過程，然後一個月內提出應有的民主程序，第三個，如何保障政策與預算的連貫性，可是我上次因為口誤，把一週內講成一個月，對於這三點，我現在看起來陳情案真的太多了，您是不是可以加速給我報告？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可不可以拜託……"],["范委員雲：今天之內？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一個月啦。"],["范委員雲：不是、不是，上次的一個月，那應該是幾……"],["吳主任委員誠文：上次是上個禮拜而已，上禮拜一而已。"],["范委員雲：我希望不要再接到這麼多學界的陳情案了，我去年擔任第一任……沒有國科會的任何陳情案，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：主委，最重要是政策的連貫性，因為我們沒有要為任何人、任何中心辯護，可是這些看起來合理的事……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們一定按照程序。"],["范委員雲：我們要有一個嚴謹的評估，而且是專業的，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我也是這樣，一定要嚴謹。"],["范委員雲：好，那我會嚴格監督，謝謝召委，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲召委。","接下來我們有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}}