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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,538 --> 00:00:05,280\n主委早辛苦了我第一個問題請教就是一個客觀現實的狀況不知道退服會要怎麼處理我曾經問過幾次我們當然有些長輩要落葉歸根他的親人在別的國家別的國度我們給予尊重\n\n2\n00:00:29,412 --> 00:00:45,563\n在世界上德國各國有的對退休給予的給付都要求親自來領取那台灣當然現在沒有這個規劃所以會有一些人是在國外的目前有關這個就養的農民從2020年當時有381位常住在中國平均年齡是92.4歲其實是相當高壽這好事情到2021年當然也會有凋零的現象\n\n3\n00:00:56,630 --> 00:00:56,810\n李卓人議員\n\n4\n00:01:16,150 --> 00:01:30,610\n人跟救養金要符合起來如果人不對人不在救養金的給付那這當然是一個弊端嘛那以往都會派人訪視那從2020年當年就是COVID-19爆發肺炎爆發\n\n5\n00:01:31,291 --> 00:01:42,298\n一直到2023年那你們都有編列附中的到中國的訪視預算那其實無法執行全部繳庫那本席現在注意到你們2025年又編了51.7萬元我請教主委明年有辦法執行嗎\n\n6\n00:01:48,457 --> 00:02:14,195\n今年還是沒有...今年48.9萬也繳酷了嘛那明年的51.7萬你們要怎麼執行因為主要還是要看陸委會他的燈號我現在目前陸委會的燈號是警示國人盡量避免前往中國大陸我請教主委齁我們去訪視因為你看喔100多個人以前還300多個人然後遍佈在中國各個省份齁你們大概沒辦法做到普查啦\n\n7\n00:02:14,815 --> 00:02:16,277\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n8\n00:02:34,497 --> 00:02:36,179\n指紋如果有問題：因為你每一年發不同的社卡：對：那那個卡有防偽的方式：它有編號\n\n9\n00:02:52,220 --> 00:02:52,680\n主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n\n10\n00:03:16,249 --> 00:03:31,783\n到中國去過去有381位現在2024年有145位你們訪視不可能全面嘛那你們訪視的取樣的原則是什麼比如說我為什麼要去訪視傅政成不去訪視周星國就是你有個選擇你要選擇怎麼選擇\n\n11\n00:03:34,065 --> 00:03:56,644\n他曾經發生過指紋驗證模糊的或是他年紀比較大的因為我們主要是要生存驗證主要是這樣那同時也許這個區域所以你們的選擇方式是從指紋回來有模糊的有模糊現象的但是你們過去有問題就送調查局那確認不符就停發所以有一些模糊的你們還是繼續發\n\n12\n00:03:58,385 --> 00:03:59,306\n他曾經有模糊過\n\n13\n00:04:13,743 --> 00:04:33,731\n因為年紀大了你們被送到調查局調查局說欸這個看起來是他的指紋對對對對那他一個人就會列為先訪是那你們的模糊是十根指頭都要模糊還是一根還是兩根三根對他只有有模糊就有疑慮了OK所以我看你們變預算從大概跟的是這些在中國救養農民的人數會變那個預算數碼\n\n14\n00:04:36,332 --> 00:04:44,428\n所以顯示過去確實有一些有模糊的狀態需要去訪視確認但是卻又因為燈號的關係無法成形那這塊怎麼辦\n\n15\n00:04:46,364 --> 00:05:10,540\n報告委員因為他還有關懷就是政府關懷德政的意思表示說我還是有人當然我去探視你是是驗證防弊關懷訪視他一體兩面是是我們都希望這些救養的農民不管在哪個國度在台灣在哪裡都能夠健康愉快這是事實但因為在常住中國的救養農民平均年齡\n\n16\n00:05:11,881 --> 00:05:34,136\n比我們台灣的平均年齡最高餘命還要年長比中國的更是年長差不多一二十歲以上所以這一個要去仿視是在我們公帑的支運上確實是有必要但我現在問的問題是你現在沒辦法去啊然後有一些指紋過去有模糊的情形過那你現在不能仿視你怎麼處理這個問題\n\n17\n00:05:36,175 --> 00:05:52,188\n因為我目前坦白說145人目前都是正常無意裝都無意裝你們有電話訪視嗎電話訪視因為我現在就是說電話訪視會人家跟他家屬都會保持聯繫有什麼問題會直接跟他家屬講坦白講\n\n18\n00:05:52,768 --> 00:06:12,433\n各位如果派去訪試的具有我們國家中華民國的公職的身份照現在中國的不管用反間諜法相關的法律其實他想動你就可以入你於罪想動你就可以你身上帶的是我們國家的文書你去到那裡那不關個五年十年怎麼回得來有風險嘛\n\n19\n00:06:13,473 --> 00:06:30,624\n所以確實你明年這51.7萬的執行在中國現在越來越高壓然後它種種的限制隨便可以看你的手持的手機電腦你的文書韓國有一個老先生跟我們國家也沒關係他只是帶了一個地圖上面\n\n20\n00:06:31,565 --> 00:06:43,978\n臺灣的地圖顏色跟中國顏色不一樣那個韓國的老先生被海關逮捕起來動用到韓國的大使館去營救那我可以想像各位如果派訪資源去上面拿著我們國家的訪視單去執行公務\n\n21\n00:06:47,139 --> 00:07:02,735\n如果他要找你麻煩這個會是個問題所以主委我剛才問的這個是我知道你們的困難那預算變在那裡不能執行坦白說每年面對審計單位你這個都要檢討你們到底有沒有找出一個可行的方法面對這個困境五年了\n\n22\n00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:17,941\n從2020年COVID-19開始21222324都無法執行坦白講本席是可以提案把這預算砍掉的啊砍掉對你也好啊因為砍掉你就不用執行了你沒有執行率的問題但是確實我們也希望有一些仿事關懷驗證\n\n23\n00:07:20,290 --> 00:07:38,333\n那主委可不可以折騰我們中央處這邊去思考有一些可執行的方法?比如說這145個人住在城市的有哪些?有沒有我們這邊有他的相片、影像,然後可以透過視訊的電話方法跟他聊上幾句話?\n\n24\n00:07:39,494 --> 00:07:39,694\n王定宇\n\n25\n00:07:58,586 --> 00:08:27,606\n主委對這件事情你有什麼看法找出一些方式去關懷兼防弊否則長期以往下去其實你們這筆預算已經五年無法執行那審計單位絕對會叫你檢討的啊好不好這一題然後下一個來這一題就跟剛才我看到好幾位委員關心執訓的部分執訓是為了什麼那個州長你可以回去啦執訓其實是為了幫我們國軍退除役官兵弟兄姊妹\n\n26\n00:08:28,546 --> 00:08:47,747\n他在人生生涯的規劃的銜接有一個好的工作嘛所以我看到你們過去開班啊我還常常問我們處長這裡就是你有沒有去找我們需要很多企業需要員工那我們的退役的軍人所受的訓練有沒有符合這些企業的需求這是一個重點\n\n27\n00:08:48,528 --> 00:09:03,078\n那現在呢國內的護理人員護理師不足兩萬五千人我講這個我們農民醫院系統的院長們應該都有感受那個北農院長你在敬禮我也是很寄予同情的眼光你們護理師不夠啊\n\n28\n00:09:04,383 --> 00:09:29,416\n那護理師不夠薪水其實一直往上堆疊他工作量太重所以護理師越不夠他的工作份量越重你加再多薪水他就做不來然後就離開有一半以上護理學校的畢業生沒有考到護理師執照他就沒有去當護理師有的人就離開了那我為什麼要提這個我們現在這個衛福部有在思考也許你沒有護理師的專長\n\n29\n00:09:31,345 --> 00:09:43,859\n那我們來輔導他去考互佐那成為分擔護理人員的工作這解決了醫療困難那對我們退輔會來講互佐的薪水跟一般的平均薪資起來應該是比較高的\n\n30\n00:09:44,873 --> 00:10:13,902\n高於我們一般的平均薪資那如果有我們的退除役的官兵弟兄姊妹對這一塊有興趣我們也應該可以給他開設這樣的班我不知道主委或處長對這個有什麼想法現在目前開的班就是照顧員班照顧員班那召委指導的副佐現在目前衛福部我們所了解衛福部目前還在修正相關的草案還在討論的階段將來衛福部如果草案如果撤班了如果定案了我們會配合辦\n\n31\n00:10:14,905 --> 00:10:35,161\n我最後給主委一個意見我為什麼要提這一題你看我上面特別寫護佐人員要有下列的資格條件之一三個護理學校相關科系第二領有造福源訓練證書第三領有造福源的職類技術試證三個有一個我就可以去做護佐訓練\n\n32\n00:10:36,622 --> 00:10:59,663\n那可是我們我在國軍服役我現在去補讀那個護理學校來不及了嘛我不可能去讀高中職的護理學校或者是大專的護理學校來不及嘛所以我會建議處長跟退服會這邊第一個把未來副佐他的可能薪資落點在哪裡這叫誘因工作內容是什麼這是他的負擔然後\n\n33\n00:11:00,717 --> 00:11:07,398\n告訴我們現在借退的國軍弟兄姊妹們你真的如果對這有興趣的話請你先報名造福員訓練\n\n34\n00:11:08,925 --> 00:11:29,759\n因為他不是護校畢業的你不用等衛福部通過因為這個草案是衛福部擬的他一旦通過我告訴你國軍弟兄多數不是護理學校畢業的啊他根本不能去受護佐訓練那我們現在是不是可以前進一點跟國防部在那邊討論借退借最近半年的根據這個訓練可能三個月請他們輔導他們先受這個造福員的\n\n35\n00:11:33,021 --> 00:11:52,015\n正書或類技術證那他也許不是要去做這個attempt他不是要做這個工作那他拿到證書之後具備資格對他具備資格了我雖然不是護理學校畢業的但我有這個資格等到護佐的職缺開出來的時候他馬上可以報名退輔會的訓練這個時候訓用合一也補足需求\n\n36\n00:11:52,835 --> 00:12:17,904\n這對一屆來講我就培養了人力的儲存戶對我們退除役官兵弟兄姊妹來講我有個好的出路我這個建議是不是可以請主委跟處長跟國防部討論現在借退的最後半年他可以先受這兩個他說沒有啊我又不當看護然後說不是你受完這兩個你就等同護理學校三個月就要畢業你接下來就可以我們將來護左卻你就可以受訓了來主委是不是請你說明一下\n\n37\n00:12:19,515 --> 00:12:43,907\n這個部分可以按照國防部討論我們可以做宣導對宣導以外要有這個制度因為我們現在包含這個全民國防你從部長下來的不管全動署或過去的全民動員室或者現在的所謂的民間的任性其實EMT到EMTJEMT1到EMTJ這個訓練在民間如果越多\n\n38\n00:12:44,787 --> 00:12:45,047\n王定宇\n\n39\n00:13:03,243 --> 00:13:31,500\n另外我們等於在社會上訓練了具備這樣子EMT能力我不知道是道萬兔或J啦齁具備這樣能力對國家韌性的提高也有幫助我可不可以請退伏會設法執行這一塊或者請處長這邊研擬方法我們的各地的榮福處可以針對退出役官兵來某職者可以推薦給他們對對大家要說明清楚就是說具備資格你收完這個訓你就可以接受互助訓然後互助薪水多少等等要有一些說明啦好不好\n\n40\n00:13:32,341 --> 00:13:35,448\n那我下一次詢問我要看這個情形看你們籌備的怎麼樣謝謝主委謝謝各位處長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n538\t5280\t主委早辛苦了我第一個問題請教就是一個客觀現實的狀況不知道退服會要怎麼處理我曾經問過幾次我們當然有些長輩要落葉歸根他的親人在別的國家別的國度我們給予尊重\n29412\t45563\t在世界上德國各國有的對退休給予的給付都要求親自來領取那台灣當然現在沒有這個規劃所以會有一些人是在國外的目前有關這個就養的農民從2020年當時有381位常住在中國平均年齡是92.4歲其實是相當高壽這好事情到2021年當然也會有凋零的現象\n56630\t56810\t李卓人議員\n76150\t90610\t人跟救養金要符合起來如果人不對人不在救養金的給付那這當然是一個弊端嘛那以往都會派人訪視那從2020年當年就是COVID-19爆發肺炎爆發\n91291\t102298\t一直到2023年那你們都有編列附中的到中國的訪視預算那其實無法執行全部繳庫那本席現在注意到你們2025年又編了51.7萬元我請教主委明年有辦法執行嗎\n108457\t134195\t今年還是沒有...今年48.9萬也繳酷了嘛那明年的51.7萬你們要怎麼執行因為主要還是要看陸委會他的燈號我現在目前陸委會的燈號是警示國人盡量避免前往中國大陸我請教主委齁我們去訪視因為你看喔100多個人以前還300多個人然後遍佈在中國各個省份齁你們大概沒辦法做到普查啦\n134815\t136277\t委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n154497\t156179\t指紋如果有問題：因為你每一年發不同的社卡：對：那那個卡有防偽的方式：它有編號\n172220\t172680\t主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n196249\t211783\t到中國去過去有381位現在2024年有145位你們訪視不可能全面嘛那你們訪視的取樣的原則是什麼比如說我為什麼要去訪視傅政成不去訪視周星國就是你有個選擇你要選擇怎麼選擇\n214065\t236644\t他曾經發生過指紋驗證模糊的或是他年紀比較大的因為我們主要是要生存驗證主要是這樣那同時也許這個區域所以你們的選擇方式是從指紋回來有模糊的有模糊現象的但是你們過去有問題就送調查局那確認不符就停發所以有一些模糊的你們還是繼續發\n238385\t239306\t他曾經有模糊過\n253743\t273731\t因為年紀大了你們被送到調查局調查局說欸這個看起來是他的指紋對對對對那他一個人就會列為先訪是那你們的模糊是十根指頭都要模糊還是一根還是兩根三根對他只有有模糊就有疑慮了OK所以我看你們變預算從大概跟的是這些在中國救養農民的人數會變那個預算數碼\n276332\t284428\t所以顯示過去確實有一些有模糊的狀態需要去訪視確認但是卻又因為燈號的關係無法成形那這塊怎麼辦\n286364\t310540\t報告委員因為他還有關懷就是政府關懷德政的意思表示說我還是有人當然我去探視你是是驗證防弊關懷訪視他一體兩面是是我們都希望這些救養的農民不管在哪個國度在台灣在哪裡都能夠健康愉快這是事實但因為在常住中國的救養農民平均年齡\n311881\t334136\t比我們台灣的平均年齡最高餘命還要年長比中國的更是年長差不多一二十歲以上所以這一個要去仿視是在我們公帑的支運上確實是有必要但我現在問的問題是你現在沒辦法去啊然後有一些指紋過去有模糊的情形過那你現在不能仿視你怎麼處理這個問題\n336175\t352188\t因為我目前坦白說145人目前都是正常無意裝都無意裝你們有電話訪視嗎電話訪視因為我現在就是說電話訪視會人家跟他家屬都會保持聯繫有什麼問題會直接跟他家屬講坦白講\n352768\t372433\t各位如果派去訪試的具有我們國家中華民國的公職的身份照現在中國的不管用反間諜法相關的法律其實他想動你就可以入你於罪想動你就可以你身上帶的是我們國家的文書你去到那裡那不關個五年十年怎麼回得來有風險嘛\n373473\t390624\t所以確實你明年這51.7萬的執行在中國現在越來越高壓然後它種種的限制隨便可以看你的手持的手機電腦你的文書韓國有一個老先生跟我們國家也沒關係他只是帶了一個地圖上面\n391565\t403978\t臺灣的地圖顏色跟中國顏色不一樣那個韓國的老先生被海關逮捕起來動用到韓國的大使館去營救那我可以想像各位如果派訪資源去上面拿著我們國家的訪視單去執行公務\n407139\t422735\t如果他要找你麻煩這個會是個問題所以主委我剛才問的這個是我知道你們的困難那預算變在那裡不能執行坦白說每年面對審計單位你這個都要檢討你們到底有沒有找出一個可行的方法面對這個困境五年了\n423956\t437941\t從2020年COVID-19開始21 22 23 24都無法執行坦白講本席是可以提案把這預算砍掉的啊砍掉對你也好啊因為砍掉你就不用執行了你沒有執行率的問題但是確實我們也希望有一些仿事關懷驗證\n440290\t458333\t那主委可不可以折騰我們中央處這邊去思考有一些可執行的方法?比如說這145個人住在城市的有哪些?有沒有我們這邊有他的相片、影像,然後可以透過視訊的電話方法跟他聊上幾句話?\n459494\t459694\t王定宇\n478586\t507606\t主委對這件事情你有什麼看法找出一些方式去關懷兼防弊否則長期以往下去其實你們這筆預算已經五年無法執行那審計單位絕對會叫你檢討的啊好不好這一題然後下一個來這一題就跟剛才我看到好幾位委員關心執訓的部分執訓是為了什麼那個州長你可以回去啦執訓其實是為了幫我們國軍退除役官兵弟兄姊妹\n508546\t527747\t他在人生生涯的規劃的銜接有一個好的工作嘛所以我看到你們過去開班啊我還常常問我們處長這裡就是你有沒有去找我們需要很多企業需要員工那我們的退役的軍人所受的訓練有沒有符合這些企業的需求這是一個重點\n528528\t543078\t那現在呢 國內的護理人員護理師不足兩萬五千人我講這個我們農民醫院系統的院長們應該都有感受那個北農院長你在敬禮我也是很寄予同情的眼光你們護理師不夠啊\n544383\t569416\t那護理師不夠薪水其實一直往上堆疊他工作量太重所以護理師越不夠他的工作份量越重你加再多薪水他就做不來然後就離開有一半以上護理學校的畢業生沒有考到護理師執照他就沒有去當護理師有的人就離開了那我為什麼要提這個我們現在這個衛福部有在思考也許你沒有護理師的專長\n571345\t583859\t那我們來輔導他去考互佐那成為分擔護理人員的工作這解決了醫療困難那對我們退輔會來講互佐的薪水跟一般的平均薪資起來應該是比較高的\n584873\t613902\t高於我們一般的平均薪資那如果有我們的退除役的官兵弟兄姊妹對這一塊有興趣我們也應該可以給他開設這樣的班我不知道主委或處長對這個有什麼想法現在目前開的班就是照顧員班照顧員班那召委指導的副佐現在目前衛福部我們所了解衛福部目前還在修正相關的草案還在討論的階段將來衛福部如果草案如果撤班了如果定案了我們會配合辦\n614905\t635161\t我最後給主委一個意見我為什麼要提這一題你看我上面特別寫護佐人員要有下列的資格條件之一三個護理學校相關科系第二領有造福源訓練證書第三領有造福源的職類技術試證三個有一個我就可以去做護佐訓練\n636622\t659663\t那可是我們我在國軍服役我現在去補讀那個護理學校來不及了嘛我不可能去讀高中職的護理學校或者是大專的護理學校來不及嘛所以我會建議處長跟退服會這邊第一個把未來副佐他的可能薪資落點在哪裡這叫誘因工作內容是什麼這是他的負擔然後\n660717\t667398\t告訴我們現在借退的國軍弟兄姊妹們你真的如果對這有興趣的話請你先報名造福員訓練\n668925\t689759\t因為他不是護校畢業的你不用等衛福部通過因為這個草案是衛福部擬的他一旦通過我告訴你國軍弟兄多數不是護理學校畢業的啊他根本不能去受護佐訓練那我們現在是不是可以前進一點跟國防部在那邊討論借退借最近半年的根據這個訓練可能三個月請他們輔導他們先受這個造福員的\n693021\t712015\t正書或類技術證那他也許不是要去做這個attempt他不是要做這個工作那他拿到證書之後具備資格對他具備資格了我雖然不是護理學校畢業的但我有這個資格等到護佐的職缺開出來的時候他馬上可以報名退輔會的訓練這個時候訓用合一也補足需求\n712835\t737904\t這對一屆來講我就培養了人力的儲存戶對我們退除役官兵弟兄姊妹來講我有個好的出路我這個建議是不是可以請主委跟處長跟國防部討論現在借退的最後半年他可以先受這兩個他說沒有啊我又不當看護然後說不是你受完這兩個你就等同護理學校三個月就要畢業你接下來就可以我們將來護左卻你就可以受訓了來主委是不是請你說明一下\n739515\t763907\t這個部分可以按照國防部討論我們可以做宣導對 宣導以外要有這個制度因為我們現在包含這個全民國防你從部長下來的不管全動署或過去的全民動員室或者現在的所謂的民間的任性其實EMT到EMTJEMT1到EMTJ這個訓練在民間如果越多\n764787\t765047\t王定宇\n783243\t811500\t另外我們等於在社會上訓練了具備這樣子EMT能力我不知道是道萬兔或J啦齁具備這樣能力對國家韌性的提高也有幫助我可不可以請退伏會設法執行這一塊或者請處長這邊研擬方法我們的各地的榮福處可以針對退出役官兵來某職者可以推薦給他們對對大家要說明清楚就是說具備資格你收完這個訓你就可以接受互助訓然後互助薪水多少等等要有一些說明啦好不好\n812341\t815448\t那我下一次詢問我要看這個情形看你們籌備的怎麼樣謝謝主委 謝謝各位處長\n","txt":"主委早辛苦了我第一個問題請教就是一個客觀現實的狀況不知道退服會要怎麼處理我曾經問過幾次我們當然有些長輩要落葉歸根他的親人在別的國家別的國度我們給予尊重\n在世界上德國各國有的對退休給予的給付都要求親自來領取那台灣當然現在沒有這個規劃所以會有一些人是在國外的目前有關這個就養的農民從2020年當時有381位常住在中國平均年齡是92.4歲其實是相當高壽這好事情到2021年當然也會有凋零的現象\n李卓人議員\n人跟救養金要符合起來如果人不對人不在救養金的給付那這當然是一個弊端嘛那以往都會派人訪視那從2020年當年就是COVID-19爆發肺炎爆發\n一直到2023年那你們都有編列附中的到中國的訪視預算那其實無法執行全部繳庫那本席現在注意到你們2025年又編了51.7萬元我請教主委明年有辦法執行嗎\n今年還是沒有...今年48.9萬也繳酷了嘛那明年的51.7萬你們要怎麼執行因為主要還是要看陸委會他的燈號我現在目前陸委會的燈號是警示國人盡量避免前往中國大陸我請教主委齁我們去訪視因為你看喔100多個人以前還300多個人然後遍佈在中國各個省份齁你們大概沒辦法做到普查啦\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n指紋如果有問題：因為你每一年發不同的社卡：對：那那個卡有防偽的方式：它有編號\n主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n到中國去過去有381位現在2024年有145位你們訪視不可能全面嘛那你們訪視的取樣的原則是什麼比如說我為什麼要去訪視傅政成不去訪視周星國就是你有個選擇你要選擇怎麼選擇\n他曾經發生過指紋驗證模糊的或是他年紀比較大的因為我們主要是要生存驗證主要是這樣那同時也許這個區域所以你們的選擇方式是從指紋回來有模糊的有模糊現象的但是你們過去有問題就送調查局那確認不符就停發所以有一些模糊的你們還是繼續發\n他曾經有模糊過\n因為年紀大了你們被送到調查局調查局說欸這個看起來是他的指紋對對對對那他一個人就會列為先訪是那你們的模糊是十根指頭都要模糊還是一根還是兩根三根對他只有有模糊就有疑慮了OK所以我看你們變預算從大概跟的是這些在中國救養農民的人數會變那個預算數碼\n所以顯示過去確實有一些有模糊的狀態需要去訪視確認但是卻又因為燈號的關係無法成形那這塊怎麼辦\n報告委員因為他還有關懷就是政府關懷德政的意思表示說我還是有人當然我去探視你是是驗證防弊關懷訪視他一體兩面是是我們都希望這些救養的農民不管在哪個國度在台灣在哪裡都能夠健康愉快這是事實但因為在常住中國的救養農民平均年齡\n比我們台灣的平均年齡最高餘命還要年長比中國的更是年長差不多一二十歲以上所以這一個要去仿視是在我們公帑的支運上確實是有必要但我現在問的問題是你現在沒辦法去啊然後有一些指紋過去有模糊的情形過那你現在不能仿視你怎麼處理這個問題\n因為我目前坦白說145人目前都是正常無意裝都無意裝你們有電話訪視嗎電話訪視因為我現在就是說電話訪視會人家跟他家屬都會保持聯繫有什麼問題會直接跟他家屬講坦白講\n各位如果派去訪試的具有我們國家中華民國的公職的身份照現在中國的不管用反間諜法相關的法律其實他想動你就可以入你於罪想動你就可以你身上帶的是我們國家的文書你去到那裡那不關個五年十年怎麼回得來有風險嘛\n所以確實你明年這51.7萬的執行在中國現在越來越高壓然後它種種的限制隨便可以看你的手持的手機電腦你的文書韓國有一個老先生跟我們國家也沒關係他只是帶了一個地圖上面\n臺灣的地圖顏色跟中國顏色不一樣那個韓國的老先生被海關逮捕起來動用到韓國的大使館去營救那我可以想像各位如果派訪資源去上面拿著我們國家的訪視單去執行公務\n如果他要找你麻煩這個會是個問題所以主委我剛才問的這個是我知道你們的困難那預算變在那裡不能執行坦白說每年面對審計單位你這個都要檢討你們到底有沒有找出一個可行的方法面對這個困境五年了\n從2020年COVID-19開始21 22 23 24都無法執行坦白講本席是可以提案把這預算砍掉的啊砍掉對你也好啊因為砍掉你就不用執行了你沒有執行率的問題但是確實我們也希望有一些仿事關懷驗證\n那主委可不可以折騰我們中央處這邊去思考有一些可執行的方法?比如說這145個人住在城市的有哪些?有沒有我們這邊有他的相片、影像,然後可以透過視訊的電話方法跟他聊上幾句話?\n王定宇\n主委對這件事情你有什麼看法找出一些方式去關懷兼防弊否則長期以往下去其實你們這筆預算已經五年無法執行那審計單位絕對會叫你檢討的啊好不好這一題然後下一個來這一題就跟剛才我看到好幾位委員關心執訓的部分執訓是為了什麼那個州長你可以回去啦執訓其實是為了幫我們國軍退除役官兵弟兄姊妹\n他在人生生涯的規劃的銜接有一個好的工作嘛所以我看到你們過去開班啊我還常常問我們處長這裡就是你有沒有去找我們需要很多企業需要員工那我們的退役的軍人所受的訓練有沒有符合這些企業的需求這是一個重點\n那現在呢 國內的護理人員護理師不足兩萬五千人我講這個我們農民醫院系統的院長們應該都有感受那個北農院長你在敬禮我也是很寄予同情的眼光你們護理師不夠啊\n那護理師不夠薪水其實一直往上堆疊他工作量太重所以護理師越不夠他的工作份量越重你加再多薪水他就做不來然後就離開有一半以上護理學校的畢業生沒有考到護理師執照他就沒有去當護理師有的人就離開了那我為什麼要提這個我們現在這個衛福部有在思考也許你沒有護理師的專長\n那我們來輔導他去考互佐那成為分擔護理人員的工作這解決了醫療困難那對我們退輔會來講互佐的薪水跟一般的平均薪資起來應該是比較高的\n高於我們一般的平均薪資那如果有我們的退除役的官兵弟兄姊妹對這一塊有興趣我們也應該可以給他開設這樣的班我不知道主委或處長對這個有什麼想法現在目前開的班就是照顧員班照顧員班那召委指導的副佐現在目前衛福部我們所了解衛福部目前還在修正相關的草案還在討論的階段將來衛福部如果草案如果撤班了如果定案了我們會配合辦\n我最後給主委一個意見我為什麼要提這一題你看我上面特別寫護佐人員要有下列的資格條件之一三個護理學校相關科系第二領有造福源訓練證書第三領有造福源的職類技術試證三個有一個我就可以去做護佐訓練\n那可是我們我在國軍服役我現在去補讀那個護理學校來不及了嘛我不可能去讀高中職的護理學校或者是大專的護理學校來不及嘛所以我會建議處長跟退服會這邊第一個把未來副佐他的可能薪資落點在哪裡這叫誘因工作內容是什麼這是他的負擔然後\n告訴我們現在借退的國軍弟兄姊妹們你真的如果對這有興趣的話請你先報名造福員訓練\n因為他不是護校畢業的你不用等衛福部通過因為這個草案是衛福部擬的他一旦通過我告訴你國軍弟兄多數不是護理學校畢業的啊他根本不能去受護佐訓練那我們現在是不是可以前進一點跟國防部在那邊討論借退借最近半年的根據這個訓練可能三個月請他們輔導他們先受這個造福員的\n正書或類技術證那他也許不是要去做這個attempt他不是要做這個工作那他拿到證書之後具備資格對他具備資格了我雖然不是護理學校畢業的但我有這個資格等到護佐的職缺開出來的時候他馬上可以報名退輔會的訓練這個時候訓用合一也補足需求\n這對一屆來講我就培養了人力的儲存戶對我們退除役官兵弟兄姊妹來講我有個好的出路我這個建議是不是可以請主委跟處長跟國防部討論現在借退的最後半年他可以先受這兩個他說沒有啊我又不當看護然後說不是你受完這兩個你就等同護理學校三個月就要畢業你接下來就可以我們將來護左卻你就可以受訓了來主委是不是請你說明一下\n這個部分可以按照國防部討論我們可以做宣導對 宣導以外要有這個制度因為我們現在包含這個全民國防你從部長下來的不管全動署或過去的全民動員室或者現在的所謂的民間的任性其實EMT到EMTJEMT1到EMTJ這個訓練在民間如果越多\n王定宇\n另外我們等於在社會上訓練了具備這樣子EMT能力我不知道是道萬兔或J啦齁具備這樣能力對國家韌性的提高也有幫助我可不可以請退伏會設法執行這一塊或者請處長這邊研擬方法我們的各地的榮福處可以針對退出役官兵來某職者可以推薦給他們對對大家要說明清楚就是說具備資格你收完這個訓你就可以接受互助訓然後互助薪水多少等等要有一些說明啦好不好\n那我下一次詢問我要看這個情形看你們籌備的怎麼樣謝謝主委 謝謝各位處長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.538 --> 00:05.280\n主委早辛苦了我第一個問題請教就是一個客觀現實的狀況不知道退服會要怎麼處理我曾經問過幾次我們當然有些長輩要落葉歸根他的親人在別的國家別的國度我們給予尊重\n\n00:29.412 --> 00:45.563\n在世界上德國各國有的對退休給予的給付都要求親自來領取那台灣當然現在沒有這個規劃所以會有一些人是在國外的目前有關這個就養的農民從2020年當時有381位常住在中國平均年齡是92.4歲其實是相當高壽這好事情到2021年當然也會有凋零的現象\n\n00:56.630 --> 00:56.810\n李卓人議員\n\n01:16.150 --> 01:30.610\n人跟救養金要符合起來如果人不對人不在救養金的給付那這當然是一個弊端嘛那以往都會派人訪視那從2020年當年就是COVID-19爆發肺炎爆發\n\n01:31.291 --> 01:42.298\n一直到2023年那你們都有編列附中的到中國的訪視預算那其實無法執行全部繳庫那本席現在注意到你們2025年又編了51.7萬元我請教主委明年有辦法執行嗎\n\n01:48.457 --> 02:14.195\n今年還是沒有...今年48.9萬也繳酷了嘛那明年的51.7萬你們要怎麼執行因為主要還是要看陸委會他的燈號我現在目前陸委會的燈號是警示國人盡量避免前往中國大陸我請教主委齁我們去訪視因為你看喔100多個人以前還300多個人然後遍佈在中國各個省份齁你們大概沒辦法做到普查啦\n\n02:14.815 --> 02:16.277\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n02:34.497 --> 02:36.179\n指紋如果有問題：因為你每一年發不同的社卡：對：那那個卡有防偽的方式：它有編號\n\n02:52.220 --> 02:52.680\n主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n\n03:16.249 --> 03:31.783\n到中國去過去有381位現在2024年有145位你們訪視不可能全面嘛那你們訪視的取樣的原則是什麼比如說我為什麼要去訪視傅政成不去訪視周星國就是你有個選擇你要選擇怎麼選擇\n\n03:34.065 --> 03:56.644\n他曾經發生過指紋驗證模糊的或是他年紀比較大的因為我們主要是要生存驗證主要是這樣那同時也許這個區域所以你們的選擇方式是從指紋回來有模糊的有模糊現象的但是你們過去有問題就送調查局那確認不符就停發所以有一些模糊的你們還是繼續發\n\n03:58.385 --> 03:59.306\n他曾經有模糊過\n\n04:13.743 --> 04:33.731\n因為年紀大了你們被送到調查局調查局說欸這個看起來是他的指紋對對對對那他一個人就會列為先訪是那你們的模糊是十根指頭都要模糊還是一根還是兩根三根對他只有有模糊就有疑慮了OK所以我看你們變預算從大概跟的是這些在中國救養農民的人數會變那個預算數碼\n\n04:36.332 --> 04:44.428\n所以顯示過去確實有一些有模糊的狀態需要去訪視確認但是卻又因為燈號的關係無法成形那這塊怎麼辦\n\n04:46.364 --> 05:10.540\n報告委員因為他還有關懷就是政府關懷德政的意思表示說我還是有人當然我去探視你是是驗證防弊關懷訪視他一體兩面是是我們都希望這些救養的農民不管在哪個國度在台灣在哪裡都能夠健康愉快這是事實但因為在常住中國的救養農民平均年齡\n\n05:11.881 --> 05:34.136\n比我們台灣的平均年齡最高餘命還要年長比中國的更是年長差不多一二十歲以上所以這一個要去仿視是在我們公帑的支運上確實是有必要但我現在問的問題是你現在沒辦法去啊然後有一些指紋過去有模糊的情形過那你現在不能仿視你怎麼處理這個問題\n\n05:36.175 --> 05:52.188\n因為我目前坦白說145人目前都是正常無意裝都無意裝你們有電話訪視嗎電話訪視因為我現在就是說電話訪視會人家跟他家屬都會保持聯繫有什麼問題會直接跟他家屬講坦白講\n\n05:52.768 --> 06:12.433\n各位如果派去訪試的具有我們國家中華民國的公職的身份照現在中國的不管用反間諜法相關的法律其實他想動你就可以入你於罪想動你就可以你身上帶的是我們國家的文書你去到那裡那不關個五年十年怎麼回得來有風險嘛\n\n06:13.473 --> 06:30.624\n所以確實你明年這51.7萬的執行在中國現在越來越高壓然後它種種的限制隨便可以看你的手持的手機電腦你的文書韓國有一個老先生跟我們國家也沒關係他只是帶了一個地圖上面\n\n06:31.565 --> 06:43.978\n臺灣的地圖顏色跟中國顏色不一樣那個韓國的老先生被海關逮捕起來動用到韓國的大使館去營救那我可以想像各位如果派訪資源去上面拿著我們國家的訪視單去執行公務\n\n06:47.139 --> 07:02.735\n如果他要找你麻煩這個會是個問題所以主委我剛才問的這個是我知道你們的困難那預算變在那裡不能執行坦白說每年面對審計單位你這個都要檢討你們到底有沒有找出一個可行的方法面對這個困境五年了\n\n07:03.956 --> 07:17.941\n從2020年COVID-19開始21222324都無法執行坦白講本席是可以提案把這預算砍掉的啊砍掉對你也好啊因為砍掉你就不用執行了你沒有執行率的問題但是確實我們也希望有一些仿事關懷驗證\n\n07:20.290 --> 07:38.333\n那主委可不可以折騰我們中央處這邊去思考有一些可執行的方法?比如說這145個人住在城市的有哪些?有沒有我們這邊有他的相片、影像,然後可以透過視訊的電話方法跟他聊上幾句話?\n\n07:39.494 --> 07:39.694\n王定宇\n\n07:58.586 --> 08:27.606\n主委對這件事情你有什麼看法找出一些方式去關懷兼防弊否則長期以往下去其實你們這筆預算已經五年無法執行那審計單位絕對會叫你檢討的啊好不好這一題然後下一個來這一題就跟剛才我看到好幾位委員關心執訓的部分執訓是為了什麼那個州長你可以回去啦執訓其實是為了幫我們國軍退除役官兵弟兄姊妹\n\n08:28.546 --> 08:47.747\n他在人生生涯的規劃的銜接有一個好的工作嘛所以我看到你們過去開班啊我還常常問我們處長這裡就是你有沒有去找我們需要很多企業需要員工那我們的退役的軍人所受的訓練有沒有符合這些企業的需求這是一個重點\n\n08:48.528 --> 09:03.078\n那現在呢國內的護理人員護理師不足兩萬五千人我講這個我們農民醫院系統的院長們應該都有感受那個北農院長你在敬禮我也是很寄予同情的眼光你們護理師不夠啊\n\n09:04.383 --> 09:29.416\n那護理師不夠薪水其實一直往上堆疊他工作量太重所以護理師越不夠他的工作份量越重你加再多薪水他就做不來然後就離開有一半以上護理學校的畢業生沒有考到護理師執照他就沒有去當護理師有的人就離開了那我為什麼要提這個我們現在這個衛福部有在思考也許你沒有護理師的專長\n\n09:31.345 --> 09:43.859\n那我們來輔導他去考互佐那成為分擔護理人員的工作這解決了醫療困難那對我們退輔會來講互佐的薪水跟一般的平均薪資起來應該是比較高的\n\n09:44.873 --> 10:13.902\n高於我們一般的平均薪資那如果有我們的退除役的官兵弟兄姊妹對這一塊有興趣我們也應該可以給他開設這樣的班我不知道主委或處長對這個有什麼想法現在目前開的班就是照顧員班照顧員班那召委指導的副佐現在目前衛福部我們所了解衛福部目前還在修正相關的草案還在討論的階段將來衛福部如果草案如果撤班了如果定案了我們會配合辦\n\n10:14.905 --> 10:35.161\n我最後給主委一個意見我為什麼要提這一題你看我上面特別寫護佐人員要有下列的資格條件之一三個護理學校相關科系第二領有造福源訓練證書第三領有造福源的職類技術試證三個有一個我就可以去做護佐訓練\n\n10:36.622 --> 10:59.663\n那可是我們我在國軍服役我現在去補讀那個護理學校來不及了嘛我不可能去讀高中職的護理學校或者是大專的護理學校來不及嘛所以我會建議處長跟退服會這邊第一個把未來副佐他的可能薪資落點在哪裡這叫誘因工作內容是什麼這是他的負擔然後\n\n11:00.717 --> 11:07.398\n告訴我們現在借退的國軍弟兄姊妹們你真的如果對這有興趣的話請你先報名造福員訓練\n\n11:08.925 --> 11:29.759\n因為他不是護校畢業的你不用等衛福部通過因為這個草案是衛福部擬的他一旦通過我告訴你國軍弟兄多數不是護理學校畢業的啊他根本不能去受護佐訓練那我們現在是不是可以前進一點跟國防部在那邊討論借退借最近半年的根據這個訓練可能三個月請他們輔導他們先受這個造福員的\n\n11:33.021 --> 11:52.015\n正書或類技術證那他也許不是要去做這個attempt他不是要做這個工作那他拿到證書之後具備資格對他具備資格了我雖然不是護理學校畢業的但我有這個資格等到護佐的職缺開出來的時候他馬上可以報名退輔會的訓練這個時候訓用合一也補足需求\n\n11:52.835 --> 12:17.904\n這對一屆來講我就培養了人力的儲存戶對我們退除役官兵弟兄姊妹來講我有個好的出路我這個建議是不是可以請主委跟處長跟國防部討論現在借退的最後半年他可以先受這兩個他說沒有啊我又不當看護然後說不是你受完這兩個你就等同護理學校三個月就要畢業你接下來就可以我們將來護左卻你就可以受訓了來主委是不是請你說明一下\n\n12:19.515 --> 12:43.907\n這個部分可以按照國防部討論我們可以做宣導對宣導以外要有這個制度因為我們現在包含這個全民國防你從部長下來的不管全動署或過去的全民動員室或者現在的所謂的民間的任性其實EMT到EMTJEMT1到EMTJ這個訓練在民間如果越多\n\n12:44.787 --> 12:45.047\n王定宇\n\n13:03.243 --> 13:31.500\n另外我們等於在社會上訓練了具備這樣子EMT能力我不知道是道萬兔或J啦齁具備這樣能力對國家韌性的提高也有幫助我可不可以請退伏會設法執行這一塊或者請處長這邊研擬方法我們的各地的榮福處可以針對退出役官兵來某職者可以推薦給他們對對大家要說明清楚就是說具備資格你收完這個訓你就可以接受互助訓然後互助薪水多少等等要有一些說明啦好不好\n\n13:32.341 --> 13:35.448\n那我下一次詢問我要看這個情形看你們籌備的怎麼樣謝謝主委謝謝各位處長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.538,"end":5.28,"text":"主委早辛苦了我第一個問題請教就是一個客觀現實的狀況不知道退服會要怎麼處理我曾經問過幾次我們當然有些長輩要落葉歸根他的親人在別的國家別的國度我們給予尊重"},{"start":29.412,"end":45.563,"text":"在世界上德國各國有的對退休給予的給付都要求親自來領取那台灣當然現在沒有這個規劃所以會有一些人是在國外的目前有關這個就養的農民從2020年當時有381位常住在中國平均年齡是92.4歲其實是相當高壽這好事情到2021年當然也會有凋零的現象"},{"start":56.63,"end":56.81,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":76.15,"end":90.61,"text":"人跟救養金要符合起來如果人不對人不在救養金的給付那這當然是一個弊端嘛那以往都會派人訪視那從2020年當年就是COVID-19爆發肺炎爆發"},{"start":91.291,"end":102.298,"text":"一直到2023年那你們都有編列附中的到中國的訪視預算那其實無法執行全部繳庫那本席現在注意到你們2025年又編了51.7萬元我請教主委明年有辦法執行嗎"},{"start":108.457,"end":134.195,"text":"今年還是沒有...今年48.9萬也繳酷了嘛那明年的51.7萬你們要怎麼執行因為主要還是要看陸委會他的燈號我現在目前陸委會的燈號是警示國人盡量避免前往中國大陸我請教主委齁我們去訪視因為你看喔100多個人以前還300多個人然後遍佈在中國各個省份齁你們大概沒辦法做到普查啦"},{"start":134.815,"end":136.277,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":154.497,"end":156.179,"text":"指紋如果有問題：因為你每一年發不同的社卡：對：那那個卡有防偽的方式：它有編號"},{"start":172.22,"end":172.68,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":196.249,"end":211.783,"text":"到中國去過去有381位現在2024年有145位你們訪視不可能全面嘛那你們訪視的取樣的原則是什麼比如說我為什麼要去訪視傅政成不去訪視周星國就是你有個選擇你要選擇怎麼選擇"},{"start":214.065,"end":236.644,"text":"他曾經發生過指紋驗證模糊的或是他年紀比較大的因為我們主要是要生存驗證主要是這樣那同時也許這個區域所以你們的選擇方式是從指紋回來有模糊的有模糊現象的但是你們過去有問題就送調查局那確認不符就停發所以有一些模糊的你們還是繼續發"},{"start":238.385,"end":239.306,"text":"他曾經有模糊過"},{"start":253.743,"end":273.731,"text":"因為年紀大了你們被送到調查局調查局說欸這個看起來是他的指紋對對對對那他一個人就會列為先訪是那你們的模糊是十根指頭都要模糊還是一根還是兩根三根對他只有有模糊就有疑慮了OK所以我看你們變預算從大概跟的是這些在中國救養農民的人數會變那個預算數碼"},{"start":276.332,"end":284.428,"text":"所以顯示過去確實有一些有模糊的狀態需要去訪視確認但是卻又因為燈號的關係無法成形那這塊怎麼辦"},{"start":286.364,"end":310.54,"text":"報告委員因為他還有關懷就是政府關懷德政的意思表示說我還是有人當然我去探視你是是驗證防弊關懷訪視他一體兩面是是我們都希望這些救養的農民不管在哪個國度在台灣在哪裡都能夠健康愉快這是事實但因為在常住中國的救養農民平均年齡"},{"start":311.881,"end":334.136,"text":"比我們台灣的平均年齡最高餘命還要年長比中國的更是年長差不多一二十歲以上所以這一個要去仿視是在我們公帑的支運上確實是有必要但我現在問的問題是你現在沒辦法去啊然後有一些指紋過去有模糊的情形過那你現在不能仿視你怎麼處理這個問題"},{"start":336.175,"end":352.188,"text":"因為我目前坦白說145人目前都是正常無意裝都無意裝你們有電話訪視嗎電話訪視因為我現在就是說電話訪視會人家跟他家屬都會保持聯繫有什麼問題會直接跟他家屬講坦白講"},{"start":352.768,"end":372.433,"text":"各位如果派去訪試的具有我們國家中華民國的公職的身份照現在中國的不管用反間諜法相關的法律其實他想動你就可以入你於罪想動你就可以你身上帶的是我們國家的文書你去到那裡那不關個五年十年怎麼回得來有風險嘛"},{"start":373.473,"end":390.624,"text":"所以確實你明年這51.7萬的執行在中國現在越來越高壓然後它種種的限制隨便可以看你的手持的手機電腦你的文書韓國有一個老先生跟我們國家也沒關係他只是帶了一個地圖上面"},{"start":391.565,"end":403.978,"text":"臺灣的地圖顏色跟中國顏色不一樣那個韓國的老先生被海關逮捕起來動用到韓國的大使館去營救那我可以想像各位如果派訪資源去上面拿著我們國家的訪視單去執行公務"},{"start":407.139,"end":422.735,"text":"如果他要找你麻煩這個會是個問題所以主委我剛才問的這個是我知道你們的困難那預算變在那裡不能執行坦白說每年面對審計單位你這個都要檢討你們到底有沒有找出一個可行的方法面對這個困境五年了"},{"start":423.956,"end":437.941,"text":"從2020年COVID-19開始21 22 23 24都無法執行坦白講本席是可以提案把這預算砍掉的啊砍掉對你也好啊因為砍掉你就不用執行了你沒有執行率的問題但是確實我們也希望有一些仿事關懷驗證"},{"start":440.29,"end":458.333,"text":"那主委可不可以折騰我們中央處這邊去思考有一些可執行的方法?比如說這145個人住在城市的有哪些?有沒有我們這邊有他的相片、影像,然後可以透過視訊的電話方法跟他聊上幾句話?"},{"start":459.494,"end":459.694,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":478.586,"end":507.606,"text":"主委對這件事情你有什麼看法找出一些方式去關懷兼防弊否則長期以往下去其實你們這筆預算已經五年無法執行那審計單位絕對會叫你檢討的啊好不好這一題然後下一個來這一題就跟剛才我看到好幾位委員關心執訓的部分執訓是為了什麼那個州長你可以回去啦執訓其實是為了幫我們國軍退除役官兵弟兄姊妹"},{"start":508.546,"end":527.747,"text":"他在人生生涯的規劃的銜接有一個好的工作嘛所以我看到你們過去開班啊我還常常問我們處長這裡就是你有沒有去找我們需要很多企業需要員工那我們的退役的軍人所受的訓練有沒有符合這些企業的需求這是一個重點"},{"start":528.528,"end":543.078,"text":"那現在呢 國內的護理人員護理師不足兩萬五千人我講這個我們農民醫院系統的院長們應該都有感受那個北農院長你在敬禮我也是很寄予同情的眼光你們護理師不夠啊"},{"start":544.383,"end":569.416,"text":"那護理師不夠薪水其實一直往上堆疊他工作量太重所以護理師越不夠他的工作份量越重你加再多薪水他就做不來然後就離開有一半以上護理學校的畢業生沒有考到護理師執照他就沒有去當護理師有的人就離開了那我為什麼要提這個我們現在這個衛福部有在思考也許你沒有護理師的專長"},{"start":571.345,"end":583.859,"text":"那我們來輔導他去考互佐那成為分擔護理人員的工作這解決了醫療困難那對我們退輔會來講互佐的薪水跟一般的平均薪資起來應該是比較高的"},{"start":584.873,"end":613.902,"text":"高於我們一般的平均薪資那如果有我們的退除役的官兵弟兄姊妹對這一塊有興趣我們也應該可以給他開設這樣的班我不知道主委或處長對這個有什麼想法現在目前開的班就是照顧員班照顧員班那召委指導的副佐現在目前衛福部我們所了解衛福部目前還在修正相關的草案還在討論的階段將來衛福部如果草案如果撤班了如果定案了我們會配合辦"},{"start":614.905,"end":635.161,"text":"我最後給主委一個意見我為什麼要提這一題你看我上面特別寫護佐人員要有下列的資格條件之一三個護理學校相關科系第二領有造福源訓練證書第三領有造福源的職類技術試證三個有一個我就可以去做護佐訓練"},{"start":636.622,"end":659.663,"text":"那可是我們我在國軍服役我現在去補讀那個護理學校來不及了嘛我不可能去讀高中職的護理學校或者是大專的護理學校來不及嘛所以我會建議處長跟退服會這邊第一個把未來副佐他的可能薪資落點在哪裡這叫誘因工作內容是什麼這是他的負擔然後"},{"start":660.717,"end":667.398,"text":"告訴我們現在借退的國軍弟兄姊妹們你真的如果對這有興趣的話請你先報名造福員訓練"},{"start":668.925,"end":689.759,"text":"因為他不是護校畢業的你不用等衛福部通過因為這個草案是衛福部擬的他一旦通過我告訴你國軍弟兄多數不是護理學校畢業的啊他根本不能去受護佐訓練那我們現在是不是可以前進一點跟國防部在那邊討論借退借最近半年的根據這個訓練可能三個月請他們輔導他們先受這個造福員的"},{"start":693.021,"end":712.015,"text":"正書或類技術證那他也許不是要去做這個attempt他不是要做這個工作那他拿到證書之後具備資格對他具備資格了我雖然不是護理學校畢業的但我有這個資格等到護佐的職缺開出來的時候他馬上可以報名退輔會的訓練這個時候訓用合一也補足需求"},{"start":712.835,"end":737.904,"text":"這對一屆來講我就培養了人力的儲存戶對我們退除役官兵弟兄姊妹來講我有個好的出路我這個建議是不是可以請主委跟處長跟國防部討論現在借退的最後半年他可以先受這兩個他說沒有啊我又不當看護然後說不是你受完這兩個你就等同護理學校三個月就要畢業你接下來就可以我們將來護左卻你就可以受訓了來主委是不是請你說明一下"},{"start":739.515,"end":763.907,"text":"這個部分可以按照國防部討論我們可以做宣導對 宣導以外要有這個制度因為我們現在包含這個全民國防你從部長下來的不管全動署或過去的全民動員室或者現在的所謂的民間的任性其實EMT到EMTJEMT1到EMTJ這個訓練在民間如果越多"},{"start":764.787,"end":765.047,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":783.243,"end":811.5,"text":"另外我們等於在社會上訓練了具備這樣子EMT能力我不知道是道萬兔或J啦齁具備這樣能力對國家韌性的提高也有幫助我可不可以請退伏會設法執行這一塊或者請處長這邊研擬方法我們的各地的榮福處可以針對退出役官兵來某職者可以推薦給他們對對大家要說明清楚就是說具備資格你收完這個訓你就可以接受互助訓然後互助薪水多少等等要有一些說明啦好不好"},{"start":812.341,"end":815.448,"text":"那我下一次詢問我要看這個情形看你們籌備的怎麼樣謝謝主委 謝謝各位處長"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:43:36 - 10:57:14","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":155300,"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時43分）謝謝召委，麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：召委好。"],["王委員定宇：主委早，辛苦了。我第一個問題請教，這是一個客觀現實的狀況，不知道退輔會要怎麼處理，我曾經問過幾次，當然有些長輩要落葉歸根，他的親人在別的國家、別的國度，我們給予尊重，在世界上，德國、各國有的對退休給予的給付都要求親自來領取，臺灣當然現在沒有這個規劃，所以會有一些人是在國外的，目前有關就養榮民，2020年有381位長住在中國，平均年齡是92.4歲，其實是相當高壽，這是好事情，到2021年當然也會有凋零的現象，到2022年、到2023年、到現在2024年，人數是145。以往我們的制度是要派人去親自訪視，坦白講這是一個防弊措施，因為世界各國有退休金制度的地方都會擔心，就是人跟就養金要符合，如果人不對、人不在，就養金的給付部分當然就是一個弊端，以往都會派人訪視，從2020年，當年就是COVID-19、肺炎爆發，一直到2023年，你們都有編列赴中、到中國的訪視預算，但其實無法執行、全部繳庫。本席現在注意到你們2025年又編了51.7萬元，請教主委，明年有辦法執行嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：今年還是沒有去……"],["王委員定宇：今年48.9萬也繳庫了嘛。"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，今年沒有。"],["王委員定宇：那明年的51.7萬，你們要怎麼執行？"],["嚴主任委員德發：主要還是要看陸委會的燈號，因為目前陸委會的燈號是警示國人儘量避免前往中國大陸。"],["王委員定宇：我請教主委，你們去訪視……因為你看一百多個人，以前還有三百多個人，然後遍布在中國各個省份，你們大概沒辦法做到普查，應該是做抽查，你們現在抽查的方式是優先去訪視哪些人？你們怎麼選擇？"],["嚴主任委員德發：請處長跟您報告。"],["周處長興國：委員好，我是就養養護處處長周興國。跟您說明一下，一般來說每季都會做指紋驗證，是從大陸，他按我們的指紋卡寄回來，十個指頭都要看，榮家看完之後，沒有問題就繼續發放救養金，有問題、有疑慮兩次之後，就給調查局來看，如果有問題就停養了，因為他指紋驗……"],["王委員定宇：指紋如果有問題，因為你每一年發不同的色卡……"],["周處長興國：對。"],["王委員定宇：那個卡有防偽的方式。"],["周處長興國：它有編號、指紋都有編號。如果停養了，他勢必要回臺灣之後做驗證才能繼續發放。"],["王委員定宇：這是一個。"],["周處長興國：對，那我們要去大陸訪視，主要是目前145個人的指紋驗證都沒有異常，都是正常的，是沒有問題的。假設說因為這個原因也就是燈號的顯示，我沒有辦法到大陸親自來訪視，這在執行上是沒有問題的。"],["王委員定宇：你沒有回答我的問題，過去到中國的有381位，現在2024年有145位，你們訪視不可能全面嘛？"],["周處長興國：對。"],["王委員定宇：你們訪視的取樣原則是什麼？比如我為什麼要去訪視傅正誠而不去訪視周興國，你要怎麼選擇？"],["周處長興國：我們選擇他曾經發生過指紋驗證模糊的，或是他年紀比較大的，因為我們主要是生存驗證，主要是這樣，同時也許這個區域……"],["王委員定宇：所以你們的選擇方式是從指紋回來有模糊的……"],["周處長興國：有模糊現象的。"],["王委員定宇：但是你們過去有問題就送調查局嘛。"],["周處長興國：對。"],["王委員定宇：確認不符就停發嘛。"],["周處長興國：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以有一些模糊的你們還是繼續發喔！"],["周處長興國：不是，他曾經有模糊過，後來他……"],["王委員定宇：是十指模糊，還是一指模糊，還是兩指模糊？"],["周處長興國：對，他曾經有模糊過，後來他再來驗證……"],["王委員定宇：沒有，你的標準是什麼？"],["周處長興國：他有模糊的話，調查局OK，可是他曾經有模糊過，因為年紀大了……"],["王委員定宇：你們送到調查局，調查局說這個看起來是他的指紋，就OK了，這個人就會列為優先訪視？"],["周處長興國：是。"],["王委員定宇：那你們的模糊是十根指頭都要模糊，還是一根，還是兩根、三根？"],["周處長興國：只要有模糊就有疑慮了。"],["王委員定宇：OK，所以我看你們編的預算，大概是依據這些在中國就養的榮民人數來編那個預算數嘛？"],["周處長興國：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以顯示過去確實有些有模糊的狀態需要去訪視確認，但是卻又因為燈號的關係無法成行，這塊怎麼辦？"],["周處長興國：報告委員，因為這還有政府關懷、德政的意思，表示說我還是有人……"],["王委員定宇：當然，去探視是驗證防弊、關懷訪視，這是一體兩面，我們都希望這些就養的榮民不管在哪個國度，在臺灣、在哪裡都能夠健康愉快，這是事實。但因為長住中國的就養榮民平均年齡比我們臺灣的平均年齡最高餘命還要年長，比中國的更是年長差不多一、二十歲以上，所以這個訪視在公帑的支應上確實是有必要。但我現在問的問題是，你現在沒辦法去啊，然後有一些指紋過去有模糊的情形，而你現在不能訪視，要怎麼處理這個問題？"],["周處長興國：因為坦白說目前145人都是正常、無異狀。"],["王委員定宇：都無異狀？"],["周處長興國：都無異狀。"],["王委員定宇：你們有電話訪視嗎？"],["周處長興國：電話訪視，因為榮家跟他的家屬都會保持聯繫，有什麼問題會直接跟他的家屬講。"],["王委員定宇：因為坦白講，各位如果派去訪視的具有我們國家、中華民國的公職身分，照現在中國不管用反間諜法等相關的法律，其實他想動你就可以入你於罪，想動你就可以，你身上帶的是我們國家的文書，去到那裡不關個五年、十年怎麼回得來？有風險嘛！所以確實你們明年這51.7萬的執行，在中國現在越來越高壓，加上他種種的限制，隨便可以看你手持的手機、電腦、文書，韓國有一個老先生跟我們國家也沒關係，他只是帶了一個地圖，上面臺灣的地圖顏色跟中國顏色不一樣，那個韓國的老先生被海關逮捕起來，動用到韓國的大使館去營救，那我可以想像各位如果派訪視員去，上面拿著我們國家的訪視單去執行公務，如果他要找你麻煩這會是個問題。","主委，我剛才問的這個是，我知道你們的困難，那預算編在那裡不能執行，坦白說，每年面對審計單位你這個都要檢討，你們到底有沒有找出一個可行的方法面對這個困境？五年了！從2020年COVID-19開始，2021、2022、2023、2024都無法執行，坦白講，本席可以提案把這預算砍掉！砍掉對你也好，因為砍掉就不用執行了，你沒有執行率的問題，但確實我們也希望有些訪視、關懷、驗證。","主委，可不可以責成就養處這邊去思考一些可執行的方法？比方說這145個人住在城市的有哪些？我們這邊有沒有他的相片、影像？然後可以透過視訊電話等方法跟他聊上幾句話，或者像我們有時候碰到詐騙集團，銀行或電信公司會打電話來問我們留下的驗證問題，例如：周處長是哪一間國小畢業的？你當兵的時候連長叫什麼名字？有一些確認的方式，而不用每次都一定要去那裡，你懂我意思嗎？"],["周處長興國：是。"],["王委員定宇：主委，對這件事情你有什麼看法？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們再研究看看有沒有其他的方式。"],["王委員定宇：對，找出一些方式去關懷兼防弊，否則這長此以往下去，其實你們這筆預算已經五年無法執行。"],["嚴主任委員德發：沒辦法支用。"],["王委員定宇：審計單位絕對會叫你檢討的，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我們再來研究。"],["王委員定宇：下一個，這一題就是剛才我看到好幾位委員關心職訓的部分，職訓是為了什麼？周處長你可以回去了，職訓其實是為了幫我們國軍退除役官兵弟兄姐妹在人生生涯規劃的銜接上有一個好的工作，所以我看到你們過去開班，我還常問我們處長這裡，很多企業需要員工，那我們退役軍人所受的訓練有沒有符合這些企業的需求？這是一個重點！","現在國內的護理人員、護理師不足2萬5,000人，我講這個我們榮民醫院系統的院長們應該都有感受，北榮院長你在敬禮，我也是寄予同情的眼光，你們護理師不夠啊！護理師不夠，薪水其實一直往上堆疊，他工作量太重，所以護理師越不夠、他的工作份量越重，你加再多薪水他也做不來，然後就離開，有一半以上護理學校的畢業生沒有考到護理師執照，他就沒有去當護理師，有的人就離開了。","那我為什麼要提這個？現在衛福部有在思考，也許大部分的人沒有護理師的專長，那我們來輔導他去考護佐，分擔護理人員的工作，這解決了醫療困難。對我們退輔會來講，護佐的薪水跟一般的平均薪資比起來應該是比較高的，高於一般的平均薪資，如果有退除役的官兵弟兄姐妹對這一塊有興趣，我們應該也可以開設這樣的班，我不知道主委或處長對這個有什麼想法？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告召委，目前開的班就是照服員班，針對召委指導的護佐，依我們所了解，衛福部目前還在修正相關的草案、還在討論的階段，將來衛福部的草案如果策頒、定案了，我們會配合辦理。"],["王委員定宇：我最後給主委一個意見，我今天為什麼要提這一題？你看我上面特別寫護佐人員要有下列的資格條件之一，包含三項：護理學校相關科系；第二，領有照服員訓練證書；第三，領有照服員職類技術士證。其中三項符合一項就可以去做護佐訓練，假設他在國軍服役，他現在去補讀護理學校來不及了嘛，他不可能去讀高中職的護理學校或者是大專的護理學校，來不及嘛！","所以我會建議處長跟退輔會這邊整理，第一個，未來護佐可能的薪資落點在哪裡？這叫誘因；工作內容是什麼？這是負擔。然後告訴現在屆退的國軍弟兄姐妹們如果真的對這個有興趣的話，請他們先報名照服員訓練，因為他不是護校畢業的，你不用等衛福部通過，因為這個草案是衛福部擬的，它一旦通過，我告訴你，國軍弟兄多數不是護理學校畢業的，他根本不能去受護佐訓練，那我們現在是不是可以前進一點跟國防部那邊討論，針對最近半年屆退的，根據這個訊息，可能三個月，請輔導他們先受照服員證書或職類技術士證的訓練。"],["嚴主任委員德發：照服員的訓練。"],["王委員定宇：但他也許不是要去做這個attend、他不是要做這個工作，但他拿到證書之後……"],["嚴主任委員德發：具備資格。"],["王委員定宇：對，他具備資格了，他雖然不是護理學校畢業的，但他有這個資格，等到護佐的職缺開出來之後，他馬上可以報名退輔會的訓練，這個時候訓用合一也補足需求，這個對醫界來講就培養了人力的儲存庫；對我們退除役官兵弟兄姐妹來講有個好的出路。我這個建議是不是可以請主委、處長跟國防部討論，現在屆退的最後半年他可以先受這兩個……"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們可以做宣導。"],["王委員定宇：他如果說我又不當看護，不是，他受完這兩個就等同護理學校、相關學校畢業，將來有護佐缺他就可以受訓了，主委，請你說明一下這個部分可不可以這樣做？找國防部討論看看。"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，我們可以做宣導。"],["王委員定宇：對，宣導以外要有這個制度喔！因為我們現在包含全民國防，你從部長下來的嘛，不管全動署或過去的全民動員室或者現在所謂的民間韌性，其實EMT-1到EMT-P這個訓練在民間如果越多，我們國家的安全能力就越高。如果我們屆退的人員可以取得這樣資格，將來他又可以進一步去受護佐訓練，真的有興趣了，他自己再去進修大學部的護理系、考護理師，他就有一個進程、他可以就業；另外，我們等於在社會上訓練了具備EMT能力的，無論是1、2或P，具備這樣能力對國家韌性的提高也有幫助。我可不可以請退輔會設法執行這一塊或者請處長這邊研擬方法？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們各地的榮服處針對退除役官兵來謀職的可以推薦給他們，受完這個訓就具備資格。"],["王委員定宇：對，但要說明清楚，他受完這個訓就可以接受護佐訓，然後護佐薪水多少等等，要有一些說明，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是！"],["王委員定宇：我下一次詢答的時候要看這個情形、看你們籌備的怎麼樣，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝召委。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝主委、謝謝各位處長。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，主委請回。","接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}}