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383.84, \"end\": 384.02, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 384.02, \"end\": 384.2, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 384.2, \"end\": 384.44, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 384.44, \"end\": 384.58, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 384.58, \"end\": 384.72, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 384.72, \"end\": 384.881, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"兵\", \"start\": 384.881, \"end\": 384.901, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:02,014\n主委企業主委\n\n2\n00:00:08,137 --> 00:00:30,867\n主委好你擔任過國防部長參謀總長國安會秘書長歷任重要君子也語文國家安全核心要務那有一些很憂心的問題想要請教您的意見最近有一位美國國際關係和政治學大師米爾斯海默他在接受訪問時提出一個讓我震驚又難過的看法他說\n\n3\n00:00:31,907 --> 00:00:58,994\n烏克蘭將成為丟失大片領土的殘存政權請問主委你有看過這段訪問嗎沒有看過米爾斯海默的訪問有兩個重點第一個就是烏克蘭很難撐過2025年因此在今年底到明年初之間戰爭就會結束然後轉變成凍結衝突至於烏克蘭將成為一個功能失調丟失大片領土的殘存政權\n\n4\n00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:13,189\n北約直接派遣地面或空中部隊進入烏克蘭,並與俄軍直接交火的可能性非常小,因為美國也不希望跟俄羅斯打一場大國戰爭。您對於米爾斯海默前面這兩項主張有什麼看法嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:20,458 --> 00:01:40,385\n報告委員二五戰爭這些年打到現在那烏克蘭主要是以北約為首的美國為首在那邊支持那雙方當初為了一些領土的主權這些爭議那目前來看似乎也不至於像教授剛剛講的那個結果\n\n6\n00:01:41,825 --> 00:02:00,479\n你認為不至於那麼悲觀嗎?其實我也希望不要那麼悲觀但是米爾斯海默的看法目前看起來不是單一的特例那也越來越多國際的媒體甚至專家學者也紛紛有對烏克蘭的前途表示一些悲觀的看法比如說金融時報就報導說澤倫斯基訪美空手而還\n\n7\n00:02:04,102 --> 00:02:31,574\n沒有要到攻打俄國的長程武器也沒有獲到承諾加入北約那經濟學人的報導說,烏克蘭本國內反對領土換和平的民意從八成七降到了五成五那西方有些媒體過去對於力挺基輔為民主而戰那最近也開始轉變一些擔憂擔心烏克蘭沒有辦法贏回國土也難以停戰我先說我非常同情烏克蘭\n\n8\n00:02:31,834 --> 00:02:31,954\n主席\n\n9\n00:02:47,921 --> 00:02:49,802\n我今天看到聯合報短評提到大選後美國國會代表團來台\n\n10\n00:03:08,713 --> 00:03:28,881\n綜藝人蓋拉茲爆料蔡賴兩人很關心原屋預算被卡那臺灣非常擔憂美國會從烏克蘭一走了之我不知道蔡英文跟賴清德有沒有對美國表示對烏克蘭情勢的擔心但我認為他們真的該擔心那主委你覺得他們會擔心該擔心嗎\n\n11\n00:03:36,670 --> 00:03:51,021\n那我要特別講我覺得他們該擔心因為事實上相同的情形我們要去看到烏克蘭這邊禁止才能夠防止但是蔡總統訪問捷克他過去捷克一直很支持烏克蘭但是\n\n12\n00:03:52,342 --> 00:04:21,382\n捷克總統帕維爾3月才代籌炮彈現在卻要烏克蘭跟支持者面對現實讓部分領土暫時處於俄國控制之下這讓我想到蔡總統以前說過臺灣跟烏克蘭一樣絕不妥協但是這次訪問我就覺得那蔡英文可不可以問一下那是不是捷克的態度依然是希望烏克蘭絕不妥協還是如捷克總統現在的建議會所謂面對現實那接下來我就要問到今天實際上我們可以看到\n\n13\n00:04:22,462 --> 00:04:49,364\n最近您知道賴清德總統他有主持全社會防衛任性委員國安會提出了40萬可支援軍事行動的可視名利計劃範圍非常龐大包括公務人力、民間救災團體、現役退役的替代役、義務警消社區名利以及還有其他的NGO組織連慈善團體都沒放過也要放進來我想請教一下我們退府會\n\n14\n00:04:50,905 --> 00:05:12,039\n主要是服務的對象是誰我們服務對象是榮民榮眷退出役官兵請問榮民榮眷退出役官兵有沒有放進這個可視名利當中可視名利這40萬的可視名利有沒有把榮民榮眷退出役官兵算進去如果是動員規劃也算的話那我們就是有參與動員規劃這一塊\n\n15\n00:05:13,993 --> 00:05:29,758\n最後我做一個簡單的結論啦事實上我覺得我為什麼前面要提烏克蘭的狀況烏克蘭其實也是全民皆兵舉國皆戰嘛對不對打這場戰爭但是即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況今天也出現非常多悲觀的一個預測\n\n16\n00:05:31,559 --> 00:05:58,488\n更何況因為主委你不只是退輔委主委你也當過國防部長那很多人也講說今天你要去搞一個所謂的那個40萬的所謂的可視名利可是國軍的志願役人數6月以來近年創近年新低多數戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成這些所謂的現役跟所謂的志願役的這個編組跟編隊長期有不足的現象嘛對不對\n\n17\n00:05:58,988 --> 00:06:22,633\n您當過前面的幾位部會首長嗎?目前看比例是比較不一樣如果說今天我們的賴總統他的防衛計畫他認為說我們要把剛剛你講退出役官兵當作一個所謂的動員的主力那你覺得退出役官兵在未來萬一發生戰事他的所謂的戰鬥的那個力量強還是現在志願役的官兵力量強?\n\n18\n00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:24,901\n這當然是志願役的官兵\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t2014\t主委企業主委\n8137\t30867\t主委好你擔任過國防部長參謀總長國安會秘書長歷任重要君子也語文國家安全核心要務那有一些很憂心的問題想要請教您的意見最近有一位美國國際關係和政治學大師米爾斯海默他在接受訪問時提出一個讓我震驚又難過的看法他說\n31907\t58994\t烏克蘭將成為丟失大片領土的殘存政權請問主委你有看過這段訪問嗎沒有看過米爾斯海默的訪問有兩個重點第一個就是烏克蘭很難撐過2025年因此在今年底到明年初之間戰爭就會結束然後轉變成凍結衝突至於烏克蘭將成為一個功能失調丟失大片領土的殘存政權\n62116\t73189\t北約直接派遣地面或空中部隊進入烏克蘭,並與俄軍直接交火的可能性非常小,因為美國也不希望跟俄羅斯打一場大國戰爭。您對於米爾斯海默前面這兩項主張有什麼看法嗎?\n80458\t100385\t報告委員二五戰爭這些年打到現在那烏克蘭主要是以北約為首的美國為首在那邊支持那雙方當初為了一些領土的主權這些爭議那目前來看似乎也不至於像教授剛剛講的那個結果\n101825\t120479\t你認為不至於那麼悲觀嗎?其實我也希望不要那麼悲觀但是米爾斯海默的看法目前看起來不是單一的特例那也越來越多國際的媒體甚至專家學者也紛紛有對烏克蘭的前途表示一些悲觀的看法比如說金融時報就報導說澤倫斯基訪美空手而還\n124102\t151574\t沒有要到攻打俄國的長程武器也沒有獲到承諾加入北約那經濟學人的報導說,烏克蘭本國內反對領土換和平的民意從八成七降到了五成五那西方有些媒體過去對於力挺基輔為民主而戰那最近也開始轉變一些擔憂擔心烏克蘭沒有辦法贏回國土也難以停戰我先說我非常同情烏克蘭\n151834\t151954\t主席\n167921\t169802\t我今天看到聯合報短評提到大選後美國國會代表團來台\n188713\t208881\t綜藝人蓋拉茲爆料蔡賴兩人很關心原屋預算被卡那臺灣非常擔憂美國會從烏克蘭一走了之我不知道蔡英文跟賴清德有沒有對美國表示對烏克蘭情勢的擔心但我認為他們真的該擔心那主委你覺得他們會擔心該擔心嗎\n216670\t231021\t那我要特別講我覺得他們該擔心因為事實上相同的情形我們要去看到烏克蘭這邊禁止才能夠防止但是蔡總統訪問捷克他過去捷克一直很支持烏克蘭但是\n232342\t261382\t捷克總統帕維爾3月才代籌炮彈現在卻要烏克蘭跟支持者面對現實讓部分領土暫時處於俄國控制之下這讓我想到蔡總統以前說過臺灣跟烏克蘭一樣絕不妥協但是這次訪問我就覺得那蔡英文可不可以問一下那是不是捷克的態度依然是希望烏克蘭絕不妥協還是如捷克總統現在的建議會所謂面對現實那接下來我就要問到今天實際上我們可以看到\n262462\t289364\t最近您知道賴清德總統他有主持全社會防衛任性委員國安會提出了40萬可支援軍事行動的可視名利計劃範圍非常龐大包括公務人力、民間救災團體、現役退役的替代役、義務警消社區名利以及還有其他的NGO組織連慈善團體都沒放過也要放進來我想請教一下我們退府會\n290905\t312039\t主要是服務的對象是誰我們服務對象是榮民榮眷退出役官兵請問榮民榮眷退出役官兵有沒有放進這個可視名利當中可視名利這40萬的可視名利有沒有把榮民榮眷退出役官兵算進去如果是動員規劃也算的話那我們就是有參與動員規劃這一塊\n313993\t329758\t最後我做一個簡單的結論啦事實上我覺得我為什麼前面要提烏克蘭的狀況烏克蘭其實也是全民皆兵 舉國皆戰嘛 對不對打這場戰爭但是即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況今天也出現非常多悲觀的一個預測\n331559\t358488\t更何況因為主委你不只是退輔委主委你也當過國防部長那很多人也講說今天你要去搞一個所謂的那個40萬的所謂的可視名利可是國軍的志願役人數6月以來近年創近年新低多數戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成這些所謂的現役跟所謂的志願役的這個編組跟編隊長期有不足的現象嘛對不對\n358988\t382633\t您當過前面的幾位部會首長嗎?目前看比例是比較不一樣如果說今天我們的賴總統他的防衛計畫他認為說我們要把剛剛你講退出役官兵當作一個所謂的動員的主力那你覺得退出役官兵在未來萬一發生戰事他的所謂的戰鬥的那個力量強還是現在志願役的官兵力量強?\n383840\t384901\t這當然是志願役的官兵\n","txt":"主委企業主委\n主委好你擔任過國防部長參謀總長國安會秘書長歷任重要君子也語文國家安全核心要務那有一些很憂心的問題想要請教您的意見最近有一位美國國際關係和政治學大師米爾斯海默他在接受訪問時提出一個讓我震驚又難過的看法他說\n烏克蘭將成為丟失大片領土的殘存政權請問主委你有看過這段訪問嗎沒有看過米爾斯海默的訪問有兩個重點第一個就是烏克蘭很難撐過2025年因此在今年底到明年初之間戰爭就會結束然後轉變成凍結衝突至於烏克蘭將成為一個功能失調丟失大片領土的殘存政權\n北約直接派遣地面或空中部隊進入烏克蘭,並與俄軍直接交火的可能性非常小,因為美國也不希望跟俄羅斯打一場大國戰爭。您對於米爾斯海默前面這兩項主張有什麼看法嗎?\n報告委員二五戰爭這些年打到現在那烏克蘭主要是以北約為首的美國為首在那邊支持那雙方當初為了一些領土的主權這些爭議那目前來看似乎也不至於像教授剛剛講的那個結果\n你認為不至於那麼悲觀嗎?其實我也希望不要那麼悲觀但是米爾斯海默的看法目前看起來不是單一的特例那也越來越多國際的媒體甚至專家學者也紛紛有對烏克蘭的前途表示一些悲觀的看法比如說金融時報就報導說澤倫斯基訪美空手而還\n沒有要到攻打俄國的長程武器也沒有獲到承諾加入北約那經濟學人的報導說,烏克蘭本國內反對領土換和平的民意從八成七降到了五成五那西方有些媒體過去對於力挺基輔為民主而戰那最近也開始轉變一些擔憂擔心烏克蘭沒有辦法贏回國土也難以停戰我先說我非常同情烏克蘭\n主席\n我今天看到聯合報短評提到大選後美國國會代表團來台\n綜藝人蓋拉茲爆料蔡賴兩人很關心原屋預算被卡那臺灣非常擔憂美國會從烏克蘭一走了之我不知道蔡英文跟賴清德有沒有對美國表示對烏克蘭情勢的擔心但我認為他們真的該擔心那主委你覺得他們會擔心該擔心嗎\n那我要特別講我覺得他們該擔心因為事實上相同的情形我們要去看到烏克蘭這邊禁止才能夠防止但是蔡總統訪問捷克他過去捷克一直很支持烏克蘭但是\n捷克總統帕維爾3月才代籌炮彈現在卻要烏克蘭跟支持者面對現實讓部分領土暫時處於俄國控制之下這讓我想到蔡總統以前說過臺灣跟烏克蘭一樣絕不妥協但是這次訪問我就覺得那蔡英文可不可以問一下那是不是捷克的態度依然是希望烏克蘭絕不妥協還是如捷克總統現在的建議會所謂面對現實那接下來我就要問到今天實際上我們可以看到\n最近您知道賴清德總統他有主持全社會防衛任性委員國安會提出了40萬可支援軍事行動的可視名利計劃範圍非常龐大包括公務人力、民間救災團體、現役退役的替代役、義務警消社區名利以及還有其他的NGO組織連慈善團體都沒放過也要放進來我想請教一下我們退府會\n主要是服務的對象是誰我們服務對象是榮民榮眷退出役官兵請問榮民榮眷退出役官兵有沒有放進這個可視名利當中可視名利這40萬的可視名利有沒有把榮民榮眷退出役官兵算進去如果是動員規劃也算的話那我們就是有參與動員規劃這一塊\n最後我做一個簡單的結論啦事實上我覺得我為什麼前面要提烏克蘭的狀況烏克蘭其實也是全民皆兵 舉國皆戰嘛 對不對打這場戰爭但是即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況今天也出現非常多悲觀的一個預測\n更何況因為主委你不只是退輔委主委你也當過國防部長那很多人也講說今天你要去搞一個所謂的那個40萬的所謂的可視名利可是國軍的志願役人數6月以來近年創近年新低多數戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成這些所謂的現役跟所謂的志願役的這個編組跟編隊長期有不足的現象嘛對不對\n您當過前面的幾位部會首長嗎?目前看比例是比較不一樣如果說今天我們的賴總統他的防衛計畫他認為說我們要把剛剛你講退出役官兵當作一個所謂的動員的主力那你覺得退出役官兵在未來萬一發生戰事他的所謂的戰鬥的那個力量強還是現在志願役的官兵力量強?\n這當然是志願役的官兵\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:02.014\n主委企業主委\n\n00:08.137 --> 00:30.867\n主委好你擔任過國防部長參謀總長國安會秘書長歷任重要君子也語文國家安全核心要務那有一些很憂心的問題想要請教您的意見最近有一位美國國際關係和政治學大師米爾斯海默他在接受訪問時提出一個讓我震驚又難過的看法他說\n\n00:31.907 --> 00:58.994\n烏克蘭將成為丟失大片領土的殘存政權請問主委你有看過這段訪問嗎沒有看過米爾斯海默的訪問有兩個重點第一個就是烏克蘭很難撐過2025年因此在今年底到明年初之間戰爭就會結束然後轉變成凍結衝突至於烏克蘭將成為一個功能失調丟失大片領土的殘存政權\n\n01:02.116 --> 01:13.189\n北約直接派遣地面或空中部隊進入烏克蘭,並與俄軍直接交火的可能性非常小,因為美國也不希望跟俄羅斯打一場大國戰爭。您對於米爾斯海默前面這兩項主張有什麼看法嗎?\n\n01:20.458 --> 01:40.385\n報告委員二五戰爭這些年打到現在那烏克蘭主要是以北約為首的美國為首在那邊支持那雙方當初為了一些領土的主權這些爭議那目前來看似乎也不至於像教授剛剛講的那個結果\n\n01:41.825 --> 02:00.479\n你認為不至於那麼悲觀嗎?其實我也希望不要那麼悲觀但是米爾斯海默的看法目前看起來不是單一的特例那也越來越多國際的媒體甚至專家學者也紛紛有對烏克蘭的前途表示一些悲觀的看法比如說金融時報就報導說澤倫斯基訪美空手而還\n\n02:04.102 --> 02:31.574\n沒有要到攻打俄國的長程武器也沒有獲到承諾加入北約那經濟學人的報導說,烏克蘭本國內反對領土換和平的民意從八成七降到了五成五那西方有些媒體過去對於力挺基輔為民主而戰那最近也開始轉變一些擔憂擔心烏克蘭沒有辦法贏回國土也難以停戰我先說我非常同情烏克蘭\n\n02:31.834 --> 02:31.954\n主席\n\n02:47.921 --> 02:49.802\n我今天看到聯合報短評提到大選後美國國會代表團來台\n\n03:08.713 --> 03:28.881\n綜藝人蓋拉茲爆料蔡賴兩人很關心原屋預算被卡那臺灣非常擔憂美國會從烏克蘭一走了之我不知道蔡英文跟賴清德有沒有對美國表示對烏克蘭情勢的擔心但我認為他們真的該擔心那主委你覺得他們會擔心該擔心嗎\n\n03:36.670 --> 03:51.021\n那我要特別講我覺得他們該擔心因為事實上相同的情形我們要去看到烏克蘭這邊禁止才能夠防止但是蔡總統訪問捷克他過去捷克一直很支持烏克蘭但是\n\n03:52.342 --> 04:21.382\n捷克總統帕維爾3月才代籌炮彈現在卻要烏克蘭跟支持者面對現實讓部分領土暫時處於俄國控制之下這讓我想到蔡總統以前說過臺灣跟烏克蘭一樣絕不妥協但是這次訪問我就覺得那蔡英文可不可以問一下那是不是捷克的態度依然是希望烏克蘭絕不妥協還是如捷克總統現在的建議會所謂面對現實那接下來我就要問到今天實際上我們可以看到\n\n04:22.462 --> 04:49.364\n最近您知道賴清德總統他有主持全社會防衛任性委員國安會提出了40萬可支援軍事行動的可視名利計劃範圍非常龐大包括公務人力、民間救災團體、現役退役的替代役、義務警消社區名利以及還有其他的NGO組織連慈善團體都沒放過也要放進來我想請教一下我們退府會\n\n04:50.905 --> 05:12.039\n主要是服務的對象是誰我們服務對象是榮民榮眷退出役官兵請問榮民榮眷退出役官兵有沒有放進這個可視名利當中可視名利這40萬的可視名利有沒有把榮民榮眷退出役官兵算進去如果是動員規劃也算的話那我們就是有參與動員規劃這一塊\n\n05:13.993 --> 05:29.758\n最後我做一個簡單的結論啦事實上我覺得我為什麼前面要提烏克蘭的狀況烏克蘭其實也是全民皆兵舉國皆戰嘛對不對打這場戰爭但是即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況今天也出現非常多悲觀的一個預測\n\n05:31.559 --> 05:58.488\n更何況因為主委你不只是退輔委主委你也當過國防部長那很多人也講說今天你要去搞一個所謂的那個40萬的所謂的可視名利可是國軍的志願役人數6月以來近年創近年新低多數戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成這些所謂的現役跟所謂的志願役的這個編組跟編隊長期有不足的現象嘛對不對\n\n05:58.988 --> 06:22.633\n您當過前面的幾位部會首長嗎?目前看比例是比較不一樣如果說今天我們的賴總統他的防衛計畫他認為說我們要把剛剛你講退出役官兵當作一個所謂的動員的主力那你覺得退出役官兵在未來萬一發生戰事他的所謂的戰鬥的那個力量強還是現在志願役的官兵力量強?\n\n06:23.840 --> 06:24.901\n這當然是志願役的官兵\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":2.014,"text":"主委企業主委"},{"start":8.137,"end":30.867,"text":"主委好你擔任過國防部長參謀總長國安會秘書長歷任重要君子也語文國家安全核心要務那有一些很憂心的問題想要請教您的意見最近有一位美國國際關係和政治學大師米爾斯海默他在接受訪問時提出一個讓我震驚又難過的看法他說"},{"start":31.907,"end":58.994,"text":"烏克蘭將成為丟失大片領土的殘存政權請問主委你有看過這段訪問嗎沒有看過米爾斯海默的訪問有兩個重點第一個就是烏克蘭很難撐過2025年因此在今年底到明年初之間戰爭就會結束然後轉變成凍結衝突至於烏克蘭將成為一個功能失調丟失大片領土的殘存政權"},{"start":62.116,"end":73.189,"text":"北約直接派遣地面或空中部隊進入烏克蘭,並與俄軍直接交火的可能性非常小,因為美國也不希望跟俄羅斯打一場大國戰爭。您對於米爾斯海默前面這兩項主張有什麼看法嗎?"},{"start":80.458,"end":100.385,"text":"報告委員二五戰爭這些年打到現在那烏克蘭主要是以北約為首的美國為首在那邊支持那雙方當初為了一些領土的主權這些爭議那目前來看似乎也不至於像教授剛剛講的那個結果"},{"start":101.825,"end":120.479,"text":"你認為不至於那麼悲觀嗎?其實我也希望不要那麼悲觀但是米爾斯海默的看法目前看起來不是單一的特例那也越來越多國際的媒體甚至專家學者也紛紛有對烏克蘭的前途表示一些悲觀的看法比如說金融時報就報導說澤倫斯基訪美空手而還"},{"start":124.102,"end":151.574,"text":"沒有要到攻打俄國的長程武器也沒有獲到承諾加入北約那經濟學人的報導說,烏克蘭本國內反對領土換和平的民意從八成七降到了五成五那西方有些媒體過去對於力挺基輔為民主而戰那最近也開始轉變一些擔憂擔心烏克蘭沒有辦法贏回國土也難以停戰我先說我非常同情烏克蘭"},{"start":151.834,"end":151.954,"text":"主席"},{"start":167.921,"end":169.802,"text":"我今天看到聯合報短評提到大選後美國國會代表團來台"},{"start":188.713,"end":208.881,"text":"綜藝人蓋拉茲爆料蔡賴兩人很關心原屋預算被卡那臺灣非常擔憂美國會從烏克蘭一走了之我不知道蔡英文跟賴清德有沒有對美國表示對烏克蘭情勢的擔心但我認為他們真的該擔心那主委你覺得他們會擔心該擔心嗎"},{"start":216.67,"end":231.021,"text":"那我要特別講我覺得他們該擔心因為事實上相同的情形我們要去看到烏克蘭這邊禁止才能夠防止但是蔡總統訪問捷克他過去捷克一直很支持烏克蘭但是"},{"start":232.342,"end":261.382,"text":"捷克總統帕維爾3月才代籌炮彈現在卻要烏克蘭跟支持者面對現實讓部分領土暫時處於俄國控制之下這讓我想到蔡總統以前說過臺灣跟烏克蘭一樣絕不妥協但是這次訪問我就覺得那蔡英文可不可以問一下那是不是捷克的態度依然是希望烏克蘭絕不妥協還是如捷克總統現在的建議會所謂面對現實那接下來我就要問到今天實際上我們可以看到"},{"start":262.462,"end":289.364,"text":"最近您知道賴清德總統他有主持全社會防衛任性委員國安會提出了40萬可支援軍事行動的可視名利計劃範圍非常龐大包括公務人力、民間救災團體、現役退役的替代役、義務警消社區名利以及還有其他的NGO組織連慈善團體都沒放過也要放進來我想請教一下我們退府會"},{"start":290.905,"end":312.039,"text":"主要是服務的對象是誰我們服務對象是榮民榮眷退出役官兵請問榮民榮眷退出役官兵有沒有放進這個可視名利當中可視名利這40萬的可視名利有沒有把榮民榮眷退出役官兵算進去如果是動員規劃也算的話那我們就是有參與動員規劃這一塊"},{"start":313.993,"end":329.758,"text":"最後我做一個簡單的結論啦事實上我覺得我為什麼前面要提烏克蘭的狀況烏克蘭其實也是全民皆兵 舉國皆戰嘛 對不對打這場戰爭但是即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況今天也出現非常多悲觀的一個預測"},{"start":331.559,"end":358.488,"text":"更何況因為主委你不只是退輔委主委你也當過國防部長那很多人也講說今天你要去搞一個所謂的那個40萬的所謂的可視名利可是國軍的志願役人數6月以來近年創近年新低多數戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成這些所謂的現役跟所謂的志願役的這個編組跟編隊長期有不足的現象嘛對不對"},{"start":358.988,"end":382.633,"text":"您當過前面的幾位部會首長嗎?目前看比例是比較不一樣如果說今天我們的賴總統他的防衛計畫他認為說我們要把剛剛你講退出役官兵當作一個所謂的動員的主力那你覺得退出役官兵在未來萬一發生戰事他的所謂的戰鬥的那個力量強還是現在志願役的官兵力量強?"},{"start":383.84,"end":384.901,"text":"這當然是志願役的官兵"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:42:31 - 11:49:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":155320,"gazette":{"lineno":581,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時42分）有請嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主委好。您擔任過國防部長、參謀總長及國安會秘書長，歷任重要軍職，也與聞國家安全核心要務，現在我有一個很憂心的問題想要請教您的意見。最近有一位美國國際關係和政治學大師米爾斯海默在接受訪問時，提出一個讓我震驚又難過的看法，他說烏克蘭將成為丟失大片領土的殘存政權，請問主委，你有看過這段訪問嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：沒有看過。"],["羅委員智強：米爾斯海默的訪問有2個重點，第一個就是烏克蘭很難撐過2025年，因此在今年底到明年初之間戰爭就會結束，轉變成凍結衝突，至於烏克蘭將成為一個功能失調、丟失大片領土的殘存政權。第二個重點是說北約直接派遣地面或空中部隊進入烏克蘭，並與俄軍直接交火的可能性非常小，因為美國也不希望與俄羅斯打一場大國戰爭。接下來我想請問您，對於米爾斯海默的這兩項主張有什麼看法嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，俄烏戰爭打到現在，烏克蘭主要是以北約為首、美國為首給予支持，當初雙方是為了一些領土的主權產生爭議，目前來看，似乎也不至於會發生教授剛才講的那個結果。"],["羅委員智強：你認為不至於那麼悲觀嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：不至於。"],["羅委員智強：其實我也希望不要那麼悲觀啦！但是目前看起來米爾斯海默的看法並不是單一的特例，也有越來越多國際媒體、甚至是專家學者，紛紛對烏克蘭的前途表示一些悲觀的看法。譬如金融時報就報導澤倫斯基訪美空手而返，沒有要到攻打俄國的長程武器，沒有獲得加入北約的承諾；經濟學人的報導表示，烏克蘭本國內反對領土換和平的民意從八成七降到五成五；此外，西方有些媒體過去力挺基輔為民主而戰，但最近也開始擔憂烏克蘭沒辦法贏回國土，也難以停戰。我先說我非常同情烏克蘭，也不樂見今天烏克蘭走向米爾斯海默或這些國際媒體的悲觀預測，但我希望臺灣的領導者把今日的烏克蘭當作鏡子，不要讓臺灣變成下一個烏克蘭，主委，你認同我這樣的擔心嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：當然和平是無價的，戰爭是沒有人願意發生的，大家也都看得到俄烏戰爭的狀況非常慘，尤其是百姓平民，所以我們希望能夠追求和平。"],["羅委員智強：好，那麼我就要把視角轉到臺灣內部。今天我看見聯合報的短評提到，大選後美國國會代表團來臺，眾議員蓋拉格爆料，蔡賴兩人很關心援烏預算被卡，臺灣非常擔憂美國會從烏克蘭一走了之。我不知道蔡英文與賴清德有沒有對美國表達對烏克蘭情勢的擔心，但我認為他們真的該擔心。主委，你覺得他們會擔心、該擔心嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員，我離開前面這個職務很久了，所以我沒有評論。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，好，沒關係。我要特別講，我覺得他們應該擔心，事實上，相同的情形，我們要看到烏克蘭這面鏡子才能夠防止嘛！蔡總統要去訪問捷克，過去捷克一直很支持烏克蘭，但是捷克總統帕維爾在3月時才代籌砲彈，現在卻要烏克蘭及支持者面對現實，讓部分領土暫時處於俄國控制之下。這個讓我想到蔡總統以前說過，臺灣與烏克蘭一樣絕不妥協，那麼這次訪問時蔡英文可不可問一下，捷克的態度依然是希望烏克蘭絕不妥協，還是如捷克總統現在的建議，只能面對現實？","接下來我就要問，事實上，我們可以看到，最近賴清德總統主持了全社會防衛韌性委員會，國安會提出了40萬可支援軍事行動的可恃民力計畫，它的範圍非常龐大，包括公務人力、民間救災團體、現役退役替代役、義務警消社區民力以及其他的NGO組織，連慈善團體都沒放過，同樣也要放進來。請教一下，退輔會主要服務的對象是誰？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們的服務對象是榮民、榮眷、退除役官兵。"],["羅委員智強：請問榮民、榮眷、退除役官兵有沒有放進可恃民力當中？"],["嚴主任委員德發：可恃民力，我想我們……"],["羅委員智強：這40萬民力有沒有把榮民、榮眷、退除役官兵算進去？"],["嚴主任委員德發：如果動員規劃也算的話，我們就是有參與動員規劃這一塊。"],["羅委員智強：最後我做一個簡單的結論，事實上，為什麼我一開始要提烏克蘭的狀況？為了打這場戰爭，烏克蘭其實也是全民皆兵、舉國皆戰，對不對？但是，即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況，今天也出現了非常多悲觀的預測。主委，你不只是退輔會主委，也擔任過國防部長，很多人說今天要去搞一個所謂40萬的可恃民力，但是國軍志願役人數從6月份以來創近年新低，多數戰鬥部隊的編現比不到八成，這些所謂的現役與志願役的編組及編隊長期有不足的現象，對不對？您擔任過前面的幾位部會首長，對不對？"],["嚴主任委員德發：目前看來比例是比較不足。"],["羅委員智強：如果今天賴總統的防衛計畫要把退除役官兵當作動員的主力，萬一未來發生戰事，你覺得退除役官兵的戰鬥力量強，還是現役的志願役官兵力量強？"],["嚴主任委員德發：當然是志願役的官兵。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！所以我一直認為政府應該把重點放對，要開始做所謂的可恃民力並不是不可以，但是要先解決我們國軍志願役編隊不足的問題，以上，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員，主委請回。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}}