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\"言\", \"start\": 148.532, \"end\": 148.752, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 148.752, \"end\": 149.973, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"語\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 149.973, \"end\": 150.053, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 150.053, \"end\": 150.173, \"score\": 0.53}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 150.173, \"end\": 150.253, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 150.253, \"end\": 150.393, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 150.393, \"end\": 150.553, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 150.553, \"end\": 150.733, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 150.733, \"end\": 151.253, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 151.253, \"end\": 151.453, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 151.453, \"end\": 151.594, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 151.594, \"end\": 151.954, \"score\": 0.991}, 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476.98, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 476.98, \"end\": 477.0, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,878 --> 00:00:15,703\n好謝謝主席客家委員會主委有請好國主委不好意思這程序問題我這個好像口譯機好像沒聲音來時間暫停來幫聯合委員調整一下OKOKOK\n\n2\n00:00:37,774 --> 00:00:54,606\n今天有討論到這個所謂的臺灣台語的專案報告那當然嘛就是這個客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感客家人也是臺灣人嘛那為什麼河洛語被認為是就可以叫做臺灣台語那這個客家語他難道不是臺灣台語嗎\n\n3\n00:00:57,087 --> 00:01:03,591\n臺灣台語的名稱對日本時代都一樣都可以這樣說我們可以尊重說好話的人說話的人自己也要發但是像我和委員會客家人所說的所屬人要本人聽到我們的聲音跟本人看得到也要尊重我們的意見所以站在我們的立場\n\n4\n00:01:22,682 --> 00:01:25,567\n來講,有的台語我們在講喉嚨話：所以我們非常強硬地去尊重有的在評定,台灣的國家語言在評定\n\n5\n00:01:34,771 --> 00:01:52,340\n我只是提醒這個我們主委就是畢竟你是客家等於是代表就是客家等於是最高的機關首長那這代表既然有些客家鄉親尤其在基層他的感受是受傷的必要的時候你要表達一下你的立場當然你可以講你也你知道複雜嘛在這整個這個行政體系裡面\n\n6\n00:01:53,947 --> 00:02:15,926\n動輒得救但是既然客家基層相繼有一些想法這我希望各位主委要守住自己的本位要勇於表達這是第一個但我們今天如果只談論名稱我覺得太可惜了因為比起名稱更重要的應該是環境我舉一個例子比如說新加坡這個主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎英文\n\n7\n00:02:16,867 --> 00:02:32,294\n其實不是是馬來語喔是馬來語喔那它的官方語言你剛剛有講到就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度、塔米爾語這四種都是它所謂的官方語言但它國家國定國家語言是馬來語然後它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文\n\n8\n00:02:32,774 --> 00:02:59,669\n所以說不管你的國家什麼國家語言啊或者是官方語言怎麼來做定位最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果所以流通的頻率是比較重要的新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題啊大家都講華語講英語他們的華語英語使用比例高可是相對來講他們馬來語使用比例就降低所以說這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標好那根據這個國家語言整體發展方案這個\n\n9\n00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:17,176\n主委知道我們這個叫做三代流失率啊,客家語的三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎?呃,抱歉,那個我,三、三太我不知道,但是我知道我們明年流失的比例差不多1.7左右\n\n10\n00:03:21,089 --> 00:03:32,194\n每年流失嘛三代流失意思是說本來可以交給爸爸媽媽跟兒子女兒然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流那個流失比例按照國家語言整理方案資料其實高達72.15%72.15%這個數字其實是蠻驚人的\n\n11\n00:03:38,957 --> 00:04:01,163\n那很多時候啊大家討論語言的時候除了討論流通性之外它也有文化資產的價值但那個通常都是到了很後面比如說我們今天也許談論部分比如原住民族的族語它已經幾乎要沒有了但它是很重要的文化資產所以今天文化部也來對不對那客語的角色就臺語大概三代流失比例大概是五成七啦客語到七成二原住民各族的族語已經到高達九成那\n\n12\n00:04:03,144 --> 00:04:19,026\n當流失的比例很高那大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策的規劃那我現在請問主委我們現在客家語的部分面對一個流失比例很高的一個情況之下我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境還是要乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理\n\n13\n00:04:20,502 --> 00:04:42,717\n當然紐約議員所說的英國的前面的答案應該要在那裡流通增加不能在那裡作為一個市的部署除了部署還要流通當然還是要拼流通對不對沒錯沒錯那現在拼流通的部分的時候有沒有具體的政策目標\n\n14\n00:04:43,894 --> 00:04:59,304\n你可以講剛剛主委顯然有一套主委自己的數字就是說每一年流失1.7%對不對那明年的目標是多少後年到後年是多少有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失然後甚至變成使用人數增加客委會有沒有規劃一個相關這樣的政策的數據跟KPI\n\n15\n00:05:01,926 --> 00:05:02,486\n文化部主任委員會主席\n\n16\n00:05:17,471 --> 00:05:33,998\n多管齊下的所有方法都要做包括媒體、宣傳、教育、法律等等﹐要加密、擬言、擁謠本來在台上提醒要擬言的TV本來在英語說要學法說學法是有用的、是好的﹐這樣提供意識\n\n17\n00:05:44,502 --> 00:05:59,227\n也要入座?提高意識讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情不會覺得很奇怪然後也鼓勵各個家庭嘛像家庭這一部分其實主委就做得不錯嘛就我的了解你有兩位這個寶貝兒子對不對你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通對嘛對不對那他們講客語應該講得也不錯\n\n18\n00:06:02,868 --> 00:06:18,107\n但我就要問主委啦除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外你有沒有問過他們就是說當出去外面的時候還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人他同學也好或者是他身邊的人交流有沒有一些這樣你沒有討論過這樣的事情\n\n19\n00:06:20,629 --> 00:06:38,259\n有確實很少人,但一旦讀到行言：非咋講,我講合法：也說以一重合在客家的法律世界,一人就有幾費使用：故所謂合一費去攀陷人家的角色：角色跟人家的環境重組出來：人家是人家最主要的：人家要做：人家太的環境要做：\n\n20\n00:06:44,062 --> 00:07:09,839\n這個我非常同意就是說打造一個適宜客語的環境這是很重要的但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標嘛比如說你當然很多計畫比如說剛剛主委也有提到比如說客語能力認證啊資料庫對不對媒體啊辦辦活動什麼這都很好我們也都會支持但問題是這些活動辦下去之後這些政策落實下去之後怎麼樣把那個1.7%要變成多少主委心裡有沒有一個目標嘛定一個目標嘛\n\n21\n00:07:10,599 --> 00:07:30,700\n我們的目標是先點下去,先點下去,不再落下去,也要提一個目標,目標是要做到能夠讓法律輕鬆提高大概要多少的時間,現在是每年1.7就是-1.7嘛,越來越少對不對,什麼時候可以回到0,不再流失,有沒有一個時間,比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標,有嗎?\n\n22\n00:07:41,173 --> 00:07:57,000\n我們希望這個每一年大家都要檢討我覺得每一年要有細的目標啦你有一個五年十年的大目標但每一年細的目標我們希望在預算審查之後可以清楚的交代讓我們可以追蹤可以嗎好感謝紐約的建議還有各位基體的建議感謝好謝謝主委謝謝感謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n878\t15703\t好 謝謝主席 客家委員會主委有請好 國主委不好意思 這程序問題我這個好像口譯機好像沒聲音來 時間暫停來幫聯合委員調整一下OK OK OK\n37774\t54606\t今天有討論到這個所謂的臺灣台語的專案報告那當然嘛就是這個客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感客家人也是臺灣人嘛那為什麼河洛語被認為是就可以叫做臺灣台語那這個客家語他難道不是臺灣台語嗎\n57087\t63591\t臺灣台語的名稱對日本時代都一樣 都可以這樣說我們可以尊重說好話的人說話的人自己也要發但是像我和委員會客家人所說的所屬人要本人聽到我們的聲音跟本人看得到 也要尊重我們的意見所以站在我們的立場\n82682\t85567\t來講,有的台語我們在講喉嚨話：所以我們非常強硬地去尊重有的在評定,台灣的國家語言在評定\n94771\t112340\t我只是提醒這個我們主委就是畢竟你是客家等於是代表就是客家等於是最高的機關首長那這代表既然有些客家鄉親尤其在基層他的感受是受傷的必要的時候你要表達一下你的立場當然你可以講你也你知道複雜嘛在這整個這個行政體系裡面\n113947\t135926\t動輒得救但是既然客家基層相繼有一些想法這我希望各位主委要守住自己的本位要勇於表達這是第一個但我們今天如果只談論名稱我覺得太可惜了因為比起名稱更重要的應該是環境我舉一個例子比如說新加坡這個主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎英文\n136867\t152294\t其實不是 是馬來語喔是馬來語喔那它的官方語言你剛剛有講到就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度、塔米爾語這四種都是它所謂的官方語言但它國家 國定國家語言是馬來語然後它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文\n152774\t179669\t所以說不管你的國家什麼國家語言啊或者是官方語言怎麼來做定位最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果所以流通的頻率是比較重要的新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題啊大家都講華語講英語他們的華語英語使用比例高可是相對來講他們馬來語使用比例就降低所以說這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標好那根據這個國家語言整體發展方案這個\n181630\t197176\t主委知道我們這個叫做三代流失率啊,客家語的三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎?呃,抱歉,那個我,三、三太我不知道,但是我知道我們明年流失的比例差不多1.7左右\n201089\t212194\t每年流失嘛 三代流失意思是說本來可以交給爸爸媽媽跟兒子女兒然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流 那個流失比例按照國家語言整理方案資料其實高達72.15% 72.15% 這個數字其實是蠻驚人的\n218957\t241163\t那很多時候啊大家討論語言的時候除了討論流通性之外它也有文化資產的價值但那個通常都是到了很後面比如說我們今天也許談論部分比如原住民族的族語它已經幾乎要沒有了但它是很重要的文化資產所以今天文化部也來對不對那客語的角色就臺語大概三代流失比例大概是五成七啦客語到七成二原住民各族的族語已經到高達九成那\n243144\t259026\t當流失的比例很高那大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策的規劃那我現在請問主委我們現在客家語的部分面對一個流失比例很高的一個情況之下我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境還是要乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理\n260502\t282717\t當然 紐約議員所說的英國的前面的答案 應該要在那裡流通 增加 不能在那裡作為一個市的部署 除了部署還要流通當然還是要拼流通對不對 沒錯沒錯那現在拼流通的部分的時候 有沒有具體的政策目標\n283894\t299304\t你可以講剛剛主委顯然有一套主委自己的數字就是說每一年流失1.7%對不對那明年的目標是多少後年到後年是多少有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失然後甚至變成使用人數增加客委會有沒有規劃一個相關這樣的政策的數據跟KPI\n301926\t302486\t文化部主任委員會主席\n317471\t333998\t多管齊下的所有方法都要做包括媒體、宣傳、教育、法律等等﹐要加密、擬言、擁謠本來在台上提醒要擬言的TV本來在英語說要學法說學法是有用的、是好的﹐這樣提供意識\n344502\t359227\t也要入座?提高意識讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情不會覺得很奇怪然後也鼓勵各個家庭嘛像家庭這一部分其實主委就做得不錯嘛就我的了解你有兩位這個寶貝兒子對不對你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通對嘛對不對那他們講客語應該講得也不錯\n362868\t378107\t但我就要問主委啦除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外你有沒有問過他們就是說當出去外面的時候還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人他同學也好或者是他身邊的人交流有沒有一些這樣你沒有討論過這樣的事情\n380629\t398259\t有確實很少人,但一旦讀到行言：非咋講,我講合法： 也說以一重合在客家的法律世界,一人就有幾費使用：故所謂合一費去攀陷人家的角色：角色跟人家的環境重組出來：人家是人家最主要的：人家要做：人家太的環境要做：\n404062\t429839\t這個我非常同意就是說打造一個適宜客語的環境這是很重要的但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標嘛比如說你當然很多計畫比如說剛剛主委也有提到比如說客語能力認證啊資料庫對不對媒體啊辦辦活動什麼這都很好我們也都會支持但問題是這些活動辦下去之後這些政策落實下去之後怎麼樣把那個1.7%要變成多少主委心裡有沒有一個目標嘛定一個目標嘛\n430599\t450700\t我們的目標是先點下去,先點下去,不再落下去,也要提一個目標,目標是要做到能夠讓法律輕鬆提高大概要多少的時間,現在是每年1.7就是-1.7嘛,越來越少對不對,什麼時候可以回到0,不再流失,有沒有一個時間,比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標,有嗎?\n461173\t477000\t我們希望這個每一年大家都要檢討我覺得每一年要有細的目標啦你有一個五年十年的大目標但每一年細的目標我們希望在預算審查之後可以清楚的交代讓我們可以追蹤 可以嗎好 感謝紐約的建議還有各位基體的建議感謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝感謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 客家委員會主委有請好 國主委不好意思 這程序問題我這個好像口譯機好像沒聲音來 時間暫停來幫聯合委員調整一下OK OK OK\n今天有討論到這個所謂的臺灣台語的專案報告那當然嘛就是這個客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感客家人也是臺灣人嘛那為什麼河洛語被認為是就可以叫做臺灣台語那這個客家語他難道不是臺灣台語嗎\n臺灣台語的名稱對日本時代都一樣 都可以這樣說我們可以尊重說好話的人說話的人自己也要發但是像我和委員會客家人所說的所屬人要本人聽到我們的聲音跟本人看得到 也要尊重我們的意見所以站在我們的立場\n來講,有的台語我們在講喉嚨話：所以我們非常強硬地去尊重有的在評定,台灣的國家語言在評定\n我只是提醒這個我們主委就是畢竟你是客家等於是代表就是客家等於是最高的機關首長那這代表既然有些客家鄉親尤其在基層他的感受是受傷的必要的時候你要表達一下你的立場當然你可以講你也你知道複雜嘛在這整個這個行政體系裡面\n動輒得救但是既然客家基層相繼有一些想法這我希望各位主委要守住自己的本位要勇於表達這是第一個但我們今天如果只談論名稱我覺得太可惜了因為比起名稱更重要的應該是環境我舉一個例子比如說新加坡這個主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎英文\n其實不是 是馬來語喔是馬來語喔那它的官方語言你剛剛有講到就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度、塔米爾語這四種都是它所謂的官方語言但它國家 國定國家語言是馬來語然後它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文\n所以說不管你的國家什麼國家語言啊或者是官方語言怎麼來做定位最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果所以流通的頻率是比較重要的新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題啊大家都講華語講英語他們的華語英語使用比例高可是相對來講他們馬來語使用比例就降低所以說這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標好那根據這個國家語言整體發展方案這個\n主委知道我們這個叫做三代流失率啊,客家語的三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎?呃,抱歉,那個我,三、三太我不知道,但是我知道我們明年流失的比例差不多1.7左右\n每年流失嘛 三代流失意思是說本來可以交給爸爸媽媽跟兒子女兒然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流 那個流失比例按照國家語言整理方案資料其實高達72.15% 72.15% 這個數字其實是蠻驚人的\n那很多時候啊大家討論語言的時候除了討論流通性之外它也有文化資產的價值但那個通常都是到了很後面比如說我們今天也許談論部分比如原住民族的族語它已經幾乎要沒有了但它是很重要的文化資產所以今天文化部也來對不對那客語的角色就臺語大概三代流失比例大概是五成七啦客語到七成二原住民各族的族語已經到高達九成那\n當流失的比例很高那大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策的規劃那我現在請問主委我們現在客家語的部分面對一個流失比例很高的一個情況之下我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境還是要乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理\n當然 紐約議員所說的英國的前面的答案 應該要在那裡流通 增加 不能在那裡作為一個市的部署 除了部署還要流通當然還是要拼流通對不對 沒錯沒錯那現在拼流通的部分的時候 有沒有具體的政策目標\n你可以講剛剛主委顯然有一套主委自己的數字就是說每一年流失1.7%對不對那明年的目標是多少後年到後年是多少有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失然後甚至變成使用人數增加客委會有沒有規劃一個相關這樣的政策的數據跟KPI\n文化部主任委員會主席\n多管齊下的所有方法都要做包括媒體、宣傳、教育、法律等等﹐要加密、擬言、擁謠本來在台上提醒要擬言的TV本來在英語說要學法說學法是有用的、是好的﹐這樣提供意識\n也要入座?提高意識讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情不會覺得很奇怪然後也鼓勵各個家庭嘛像家庭這一部分其實主委就做得不錯嘛就我的了解你有兩位這個寶貝兒子對不對你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通對嘛對不對那他們講客語應該講得也不錯\n但我就要問主委啦除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外你有沒有問過他們就是說當出去外面的時候還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人他同學也好或者是他身邊的人交流有沒有一些這樣你沒有討論過這樣的事情\n有確實很少人,但一旦讀到行言：非咋講,我講合法： 也說以一重合在客家的法律世界,一人就有幾費使用：故所謂合一費去攀陷人家的角色：角色跟人家的環境重組出來：人家是人家最主要的：人家要做：人家太的環境要做：\n這個我非常同意就是說打造一個適宜客語的環境這是很重要的但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標嘛比如說你當然很多計畫比如說剛剛主委也有提到比如說客語能力認證啊資料庫對不對媒體啊辦辦活動什麼這都很好我們也都會支持但問題是這些活動辦下去之後這些政策落實下去之後怎麼樣把那個1.7%要變成多少主委心裡有沒有一個目標嘛定一個目標嘛\n我們的目標是先點下去,先點下去,不再落下去,也要提一個目標,目標是要做到能夠讓法律輕鬆提高大概要多少的時間,現在是每年1.7就是-1.7嘛,越來越少對不對,什麼時候可以回到0,不再流失,有沒有一個時間,比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標,有嗎?\n我們希望這個每一年大家都要檢討我覺得每一年要有細的目標啦你有一個五年十年的大目標但每一年細的目標我們希望在預算審查之後可以清楚的交代讓我們可以追蹤 可以嗎好 感謝紐約的建議還有各位基體的建議感謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝感謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.878 --> 00:15.703\n好謝謝主席客家委員會主委有請好國主委不好意思這程序問題我這個好像口譯機好像沒聲音來時間暫停來幫聯合委員調整一下OKOKOK\n\n00:37.774 --> 00:54.606\n今天有討論到這個所謂的臺灣台語的專案報告那當然嘛就是這個客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感客家人也是臺灣人嘛那為什麼河洛語被認為是就可以叫做臺灣台語那這個客家語他難道不是臺灣台語嗎\n\n00:57.087 --> 01:03.591\n臺灣台語的名稱對日本時代都一樣都可以這樣說我們可以尊重說好話的人說話的人自己也要發但是像我和委員會客家人所說的所屬人要本人聽到我們的聲音跟本人看得到也要尊重我們的意見所以站在我們的立場\n\n01:22.682 --> 01:25.567\n來講,有的台語我們在講喉嚨話：所以我們非常強硬地去尊重有的在評定,台灣的國家語言在評定\n\n01:34.771 --> 01:52.340\n我只是提醒這個我們主委就是畢竟你是客家等於是代表就是客家等於是最高的機關首長那這代表既然有些客家鄉親尤其在基層他的感受是受傷的必要的時候你要表達一下你的立場當然你可以講你也你知道複雜嘛在這整個這個行政體系裡面\n\n01:53.947 --> 02:15.926\n動輒得救但是既然客家基層相繼有一些想法這我希望各位主委要守住自己的本位要勇於表達這是第一個但我們今天如果只談論名稱我覺得太可惜了因為比起名稱更重要的應該是環境我舉一個例子比如說新加坡這個主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎英文\n\n02:16.867 --> 02:32.294\n其實不是是馬來語喔是馬來語喔那它的官方語言你剛剛有講到就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度、塔米爾語這四種都是它所謂的官方語言但它國家國定國家語言是馬來語然後它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文\n\n02:32.774 --> 02:59.669\n所以說不管你的國家什麼國家語言啊或者是官方語言怎麼來做定位最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果所以流通的頻率是比較重要的新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題啊大家都講華語講英語他們的華語英語使用比例高可是相對來講他們馬來語使用比例就降低所以說這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標好那根據這個國家語言整體發展方案這個\n\n03:01.630 --> 03:17.176\n主委知道我們這個叫做三代流失率啊,客家語的三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎?呃,抱歉,那個我,三、三太我不知道,但是我知道我們明年流失的比例差不多1.7左右\n\n03:21.089 --> 03:32.194\n每年流失嘛三代流失意思是說本來可以交給爸爸媽媽跟兒子女兒然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流那個流失比例按照國家語言整理方案資料其實高達72.15%72.15%這個數字其實是蠻驚人的\n\n03:38.957 --> 04:01.163\n那很多時候啊大家討論語言的時候除了討論流通性之外它也有文化資產的價值但那個通常都是到了很後面比如說我們今天也許談論部分比如原住民族的族語它已經幾乎要沒有了但它是很重要的文化資產所以今天文化部也來對不對那客語的角色就臺語大概三代流失比例大概是五成七啦客語到七成二原住民各族的族語已經到高達九成那\n\n04:03.144 --> 04:19.026\n當流失的比例很高那大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策的規劃那我現在請問主委我們現在客家語的部分面對一個流失比例很高的一個情況之下我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境還是要乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理\n\n04:20.502 --> 04:42.717\n當然紐約議員所說的英國的前面的答案應該要在那裡流通增加不能在那裡作為一個市的部署除了部署還要流通當然還是要拼流通對不對沒錯沒錯那現在拼流通的部分的時候有沒有具體的政策目標\n\n04:43.894 --> 04:59.304\n你可以講剛剛主委顯然有一套主委自己的數字就是說每一年流失1.7%對不對那明年的目標是多少後年到後年是多少有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失然後甚至變成使用人數增加客委會有沒有規劃一個相關這樣的政策的數據跟KPI\n\n05:01.926 --> 05:02.486\n文化部主任委員會主席\n\n05:17.471 --> 05:33.998\n多管齊下的所有方法都要做包括媒體、宣傳、教育、法律等等﹐要加密、擬言、擁謠本來在台上提醒要擬言的TV本來在英語說要學法說學法是有用的、是好的﹐這樣提供意識\n\n05:44.502 --> 05:59.227\n也要入座?提高意識讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情不會覺得很奇怪然後也鼓勵各個家庭嘛像家庭這一部分其實主委就做得不錯嘛就我的了解你有兩位這個寶貝兒子對不對你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通對嘛對不對那他們講客語應該講得也不錯\n\n06:02.868 --> 06:18.107\n但我就要問主委啦除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外你有沒有問過他們就是說當出去外面的時候還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人他同學也好或者是他身邊的人交流有沒有一些這樣你沒有討論過這樣的事情\n\n06:20.629 --> 06:38.259\n有確實很少人,但一旦讀到行言：非咋講,我講合法：也說以一重合在客家的法律世界,一人就有幾費使用：故所謂合一費去攀陷人家的角色：角色跟人家的環境重組出來：人家是人家最主要的：人家要做：人家太的環境要做：\n\n06:44.062 --> 07:09.839\n這個我非常同意就是說打造一個適宜客語的環境這是很重要的但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標嘛比如說你當然很多計畫比如說剛剛主委也有提到比如說客語能力認證啊資料庫對不對媒體啊辦辦活動什麼這都很好我們也都會支持但問題是這些活動辦下去之後這些政策落實下去之後怎麼樣把那個1.7%要變成多少主委心裡有沒有一個目標嘛定一個目標嘛\n\n07:10.599 --> 07:30.700\n我們的目標是先點下去,先點下去,不再落下去,也要提一個目標,目標是要做到能夠讓法律輕鬆提高大概要多少的時間,現在是每年1.7就是-1.7嘛,越來越少對不對,什麼時候可以回到0,不再流失,有沒有一個時間,比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標,有嗎?\n\n07:41.173 --> 07:57.000\n我們希望這個每一年大家都要檢討我覺得每一年要有細的目標啦你有一個五年十年的大目標但每一年細的目標我們希望在預算審查之後可以清楚的交代讓我們可以追蹤可以嗎好感謝紐約的建議還有各位基體的建議感謝好謝謝主委謝謝感謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.878,"end":15.703,"text":"好 謝謝主席 客家委員會主委有請好 國主委不好意思 這程序問題我這個好像口譯機好像沒聲音來 時間暫停來幫聯合委員調整一下OK OK OK"},{"start":37.774,"end":54.606,"text":"今天有討論到這個所謂的臺灣台語的專案報告那當然嘛就是這個客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感客家人也是臺灣人嘛那為什麼河洛語被認為是就可以叫做臺灣台語那這個客家語他難道不是臺灣台語嗎"},{"start":57.087,"end":63.591,"text":"臺灣台語的名稱對日本時代都一樣 都可以這樣說我們可以尊重說好話的人說話的人自己也要發但是像我和委員會客家人所說的所屬人要本人聽到我們的聲音跟本人看得到 也要尊重我們的意見所以站在我們的立場"},{"start":82.682,"end":85.567,"text":"來講,有的台語我們在講喉嚨話：所以我們非常強硬地去尊重有的在評定,台灣的國家語言在評定"},{"start":94.771,"end":112.34,"text":"我只是提醒這個我們主委就是畢竟你是客家等於是代表就是客家等於是最高的機關首長那這代表既然有些客家鄉親尤其在基層他的感受是受傷的必要的時候你要表達一下你的立場當然你可以講你也你知道複雜嘛在這整個這個行政體系裡面"},{"start":113.947,"end":135.926,"text":"動輒得救但是既然客家基層相繼有一些想法這我希望各位主委要守住自己的本位要勇於表達這是第一個但我們今天如果只談論名稱我覺得太可惜了因為比起名稱更重要的應該是環境我舉一個例子比如說新加坡這個主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎英文"},{"start":136.867,"end":152.294,"text":"其實不是 是馬來語喔是馬來語喔那它的官方語言你剛剛有講到就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度、塔米爾語這四種都是它所謂的官方語言但它國家 國定國家語言是馬來語然後它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文"},{"start":152.774,"end":179.669,"text":"所以說不管你的國家什麼國家語言啊或者是官方語言怎麼來做定位最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果所以流通的頻率是比較重要的新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題啊大家都講華語講英語他們的華語英語使用比例高可是相對來講他們馬來語使用比例就降低所以說這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標好那根據這個國家語言整體發展方案這個"},{"start":181.63,"end":197.176,"text":"主委知道我們這個叫做三代流失率啊,客家語的三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎?呃,抱歉,那個我,三、三太我不知道,但是我知道我們明年流失的比例差不多1.7左右"},{"start":201.089,"end":212.194,"text":"每年流失嘛 三代流失意思是說本來可以交給爸爸媽媽跟兒子女兒然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流 那個流失比例按照國家語言整理方案資料其實高達72.15% 72.15% 這個數字其實是蠻驚人的"},{"start":218.957,"end":241.163,"text":"那很多時候啊大家討論語言的時候除了討論流通性之外它也有文化資產的價值但那個通常都是到了很後面比如說我們今天也許談論部分比如原住民族的族語它已經幾乎要沒有了但它是很重要的文化資產所以今天文化部也來對不對那客語的角色就臺語大概三代流失比例大概是五成七啦客語到七成二原住民各族的族語已經到高達九成那"},{"start":243.144,"end":259.026,"text":"當流失的比例很高那大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策的規劃那我現在請問主委我們現在客家語的部分面對一個流失比例很高的一個情況之下我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境還是要乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理"},{"start":260.502,"end":282.717,"text":"當然 紐約議員所說的英國的前面的答案 應該要在那裡流通 增加 不能在那裡作為一個市的部署 除了部署還要流通當然還是要拼流通對不對 沒錯沒錯那現在拼流通的部分的時候 有沒有具體的政策目標"},{"start":283.894,"end":299.304,"text":"你可以講剛剛主委顯然有一套主委自己的數字就是說每一年流失1.7%對不對那明年的目標是多少後年到後年是多少有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失然後甚至變成使用人數增加客委會有沒有規劃一個相關這樣的政策的數據跟KPI"},{"start":301.926,"end":302.486,"text":"文化部主任委員會主席"},{"start":317.471,"end":333.998,"text":"多管齊下的所有方法都要做包括媒體、宣傳、教育、法律等等﹐要加密、擬言、擁謠本來在台上提醒要擬言的TV本來在英語說要學法說學法是有用的、是好的﹐這樣提供意識"},{"start":344.502,"end":359.227,"text":"也要入座?提高意識讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情不會覺得很奇怪然後也鼓勵各個家庭嘛像家庭這一部分其實主委就做得不錯嘛就我的了解你有兩位這個寶貝兒子對不對你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通對嘛對不對那他們講客語應該講得也不錯"},{"start":362.868,"end":378.107,"text":"但我就要問主委啦除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外你有沒有問過他們就是說當出去外面的時候還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人他同學也好或者是他身邊的人交流有沒有一些這樣你沒有討論過這樣的事情"},{"start":380.629,"end":398.259,"text":"有確實很少人,但一旦讀到行言：非咋講,我講合法： 也說以一重合在客家的法律世界,一人就有幾費使用：故所謂合一費去攀陷人家的角色：角色跟人家的環境重組出來：人家是人家最主要的：人家要做：人家太的環境要做："},{"start":404.062,"end":429.839,"text":"這個我非常同意就是說打造一個適宜客語的環境這是很重要的但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標嘛比如說你當然很多計畫比如說剛剛主委也有提到比如說客語能力認證啊資料庫對不對媒體啊辦辦活動什麼這都很好我們也都會支持但問題是這些活動辦下去之後這些政策落實下去之後怎麼樣把那個1.7%要變成多少主委心裡有沒有一個目標嘛定一個目標嘛"},{"start":430.599,"end":450.7,"text":"我們的目標是先點下去,先點下去,不再落下去,也要提一個目標,目標是要做到能夠讓法律輕鬆提高大概要多少的時間,現在是每年1.7就是-1.7嘛,越來越少對不對,什麼時候可以回到0,不再流失,有沒有一個時間,比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標,有嗎?"},{"start":461.173,"end":477,"text":"我們希望這個每一年大家都要檢討我覺得每一年要有細的目標啦你有一個五年十年的大目標但每一年細的目標我們希望在預算審查之後可以清楚的交代讓我們可以追蹤 可以嗎好 感謝紐約的建議還有各位基體的建議感謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝感謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:24:11 - 11:32:10","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155330,"gazette":{"lineno":791,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時24分）謝謝主席。客委會主委，有請。"],["主席：好，古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：不好意思，程序問題。我的口譯機好像沒有聲音。"],["主席：來，時間暫停，請幫牛委員調整一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。","主委早安。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝牛委員，早安。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天有討論到所謂臺灣台語的專案報告，當然客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感，客家人也是臺灣人，對不對？那為什麼福佬語被認為可以叫做臺灣台語？客家語難道不是臺灣台語嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這樣啦！就台語這個名稱，從日本時代到現在都有這種說法，我們尊重說福佬話的人說他們自己的語言是什麼語言，但是就我客委會客家人的立場來說，少數人要被人聽到我們的聲音、被人看到跟尊重我們的意見，所以站在我的立場，我來表達的話，「台語」我們是說福佬話，所以我們互相一起尊重，這是平等的，臺灣的國家語言是平等的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我只是提醒主委，畢竟你等於客家人的代表，等於客家的最高機關首長，既然有些客家鄉親，尤其在基層，他的感受是受傷的，必要的時候，你也要表達一下你的立場，當然你可以講，你知道複雜嘛！在這整個行政體系裡面，動輒得咎，但是既然客家基層鄉親有一些想法，我希望客委會主委要守住自己的本位，要勇於表達，這是第一個。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是我們今天如果只談論名稱，我覺得太可惜了，因為比起名稱，更重要的應該是環境。我舉一個例子，比如新加坡，主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：英文。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實不是，而是馬來語。它的官方語言你剛剛有講到，就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度泰米爾語，這四種都是它所謂的官方語言，但是它國定的國家語言是馬來語，它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文，所以不管什麼國家語言或者是官方語言怎麼來定位，最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果，所以流通的頻率是比較重要的。新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題，大家都講華語、講英語，他們的華語、英語使用比例高，相對來講，他們馬來語使用比例就降低，所以這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標。好，根據國家語言整體發展方案，我們這個叫做三代流失率，主委知道客家語三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：不好意思，三代我不知道，但是我知道我們每一年流失的比例差不多1.7%左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：每年流失嘛！三代流失的意思是，本來可以爸爸、媽媽跟兒子、女兒，然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流，那個流失比例，按照國家語言整體發展方案的資料，其實高達72.15%，這個數字其實是蠻驚人的，大家在討論語言的時候，除了討論流通性之外，它也有文化資產的價值，但那個通常都是到很後面，比如我們今天也許談論部分，比如原住民族的族語，它已經幾乎要沒有了，但它是很重要的文化資產，所以今天文化部也來了，對不對？而客語的角色，因為台語三代流失比例大概是五成七，客語到七成二，原住民各族的族語已經高達九成了，當流失的比例很高，大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策規劃。我現在請問主委，現在客家語的部分，面對流失比例很高的情況之下，我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境，還是乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理？"],["古主任委員秀妃：當然，就牛委員所說的，應該是前面這個答案，我們要去把流通增加，不是去作為一個死的保存這樣而已，除了保存還要流通。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們當然還是要拚流通，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯、沒錯！好，現在拚流通這部分的時候，有沒有具體的政策目標？剛剛主委顯然有一套自己的數字，就是每一年流失1.7%，對不對？那麼明年的目標是多少，後年、大後年是多少，有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失，甚至變成使用人數增加？客委會有沒有規劃相關這樣的政策數據跟KPI？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，這個語言看起來我們花了很多心力去做，但是還是流失，所以我們第一個目標是要止跌，讓它不要流失，所以我們現在多管齊下，就是所有的方法都要做，所有的方法包括媒體、宣傳、教育、活動等等，要加入語言的融入，讓大家聽得到客語，提升客語的語言地位，讓大家認為講客語是有用的、是好的，這樣提高人的意識來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是提高意識，讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情，不會覺得很奇怪，然後也鼓勵各個家庭，像家庭這一部分，其實主委就做得不錯，就我的了解，你有兩位寶貝兒子對不對？你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通？對嘛！那他們講客語應該也講得不錯，但我就要問主委，除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外，你有沒有問過他們，當出去外面的時候，還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人、同學也好，或者是他身邊的人交流？有沒有一些這樣的案例？有沒有討論過這樣的事情？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，確實很少，但是一旦遇到客家人或者是會講客語的，或是他參加客家活動的時候，他們就有機會使用，所以客委會是扮演這樣的角色，把這個環境創造出來，這是我們最主要要做的，這個大的環境要做。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我非常同意，就是打造一個適宜客語的環境，這是很重要的，但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標，你當然有很多計畫，比如剛剛主委也有提到客語能力認證、資料庫、媒體、辦辦活動什麼的，這都很好，我們也都會支持，但問題是這些活動辦下去之後，這些政策落實下去之後，怎麼樣把那個1.7%變成多少，主委心裡有沒有一個目標？訂一個目標嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我的目標是先停下來，不要再往下掉，這是第一個目標，目標是做了才有辦法向上提高。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概要多少的時間可以……現在是每一年負1.7%，越來越少，對不對？什麼時候可以回到0，不再流失，有沒有一個時間？比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標，有嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想這個時間不會短，會是一個長的時間還要努力5年到10年。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望每一年大家都要檢討，我覺得每一年要有細的目標，你有一個5年、10年的大目標，但每一年有細的目標，我們希望在預算審查的時候可以清楚的交代，讓我們可以追蹤，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝牛委員的建議，這是很具體的建議，感謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：接下來我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","羅智強","涂權吉","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","黃國昌","呂玉玲","蘇清泉","丁學忠","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概\n況，並備質詢；二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育\n部，就「臺灣台語」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正\n「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00004"}}}