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{\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 328.372, \"end\": 328.612, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 328.612, \"end\": 329.592, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 329.592, \"end\": 329.692, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 329.692, \"end\": 329.812, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 329.812, \"end\": 329.952, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 329.952, \"end\": 330.112, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 330.112, \"end\": 330.793, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 330.793, \"end\": 330.913, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 330.913, \"end\": 331.033, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 331.033, \"end\": 331.413, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 331.413, \"end\": 331.733, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 331.733, \"end\": 332.813, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 332.813, \"end\": 333.114, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 333.114, \"end\": 333.234, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 333.234, \"end\": 333.434, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 333.434, \"end\": 333.714, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 333.714, \"end\": 333.734, \"score\": 0.998}]}, {\"start\": 334.614, \"end\": 356.064, \"text\": \"那 多好呢 我看這一條 你看 上面可以攝緩沖帶 可以種灌熟作物 然後可以用混農林的方式 等等這是找原住民的學者專家 在地的人 去討論出來的但是我知道的是 擠進擠退阿 跟國土署 我希望到時候大家各部會 一同的來支持齁 那部長可以嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 334.614, \"end\": 335.074, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 335.074, \"end\": 335.274, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 335.274, \"end\": 335.434, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 335.434, \"end\": 335.594, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 335.594, \"end\": 335.775, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 335.775, \"end\": 336.115, \"score\": 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350.641, \"end\": 350.781, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 350.781, \"end\": 351.101, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 351.101, \"end\": 351.342, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 351.342, \"end\": 351.782, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 351.782, \"end\": 351.882, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 351.882, \"end\": 351.982, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 351.982, \"end\": 352.162, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 352.162, \"end\": 352.462, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 352.462, \"end\": 352.662, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 352.662, \"end\": 352.862, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 352.862, \"end\": 353.102, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 353.102, \"end\": 353.282, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 353.282, \"end\": 353.883, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 353.883, \"end\": 354.023, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 354.023, \"end\": 354.203, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 354.203, \"end\": 354.523, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 354.523, \"end\": 354.763, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 354.763, \"end\": 355.403, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 355.403, \"end\": 355.644, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 355.644, \"end\": 355.924, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 355.924, \"end\": 356.044, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 356.044, \"end\": 356.064, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 356.784, \"end\": 371.896, \"text\": \"我想我一定會從我的角度去 從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分 我想我們會去盤點\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 356.784, \"end\": 356.884, \"score\": 0.422}, {\"word\": \"想\", 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0.729}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 365.411, \"end\": 365.651, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 365.651, \"end\": 368.333, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"墾\"}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 368.333, \"end\": 368.454, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 368.454, \"end\": 368.574, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 368.574, \"end\": 368.694, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 368.694, \"end\": 368.854, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 368.854, \"end\": 369.354, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 369.354, \"end\": 369.554, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 369.554, \"end\": 369.675, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 369.675, \"end\": 370.175, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 370.175, \"end\": 370.295, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 370.295, \"end\": 370.435, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 370.435, \"end\": 370.535, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 370.535, \"end\": 370.615, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 370.615, \"end\": 370.775, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 370.775, \"end\": 370.876, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 370.876, \"end\": 371.236, \"score\": 0.607}, {\"word\": \"寬\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 371.236, \"end\": 371.336, \"score\": 0.502}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 371.336, \"end\": 371.436, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 371.436, \"end\": 371.556, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 371.556, \"end\": 371.656, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 371.656, \"end\": 371.796, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 371.796, \"end\": 371.876, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 371.876, \"end\": 371.896, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}]}, {\"start\": 372.677, \"end\": 394.595, \"text\": \"那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 372.677, \"end\": 372.857, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 372.857, \"end\": 372.957, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 372.957, \"end\": 373.077, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 373.077, \"end\": 373.458, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 373.458, \"end\": 373.638, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 373.638, \"end\": 373.738, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 373.738, \"end\": 373.858, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 373.858, \"end\": 374.158, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 374.158, \"end\": 375.539, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": 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416.346, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"競\"}, {\"word\": \"爬\", \"start\": 416.346, \"end\": 416.366, \"score\": 0.113}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"償\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 418.007, \"end\": 418.107, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 418.107, \"end\": 418.307, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 418.307, \"end\": 418.327, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,209 --> 00:00:10,078\n謝謝主席有請部長請農業部陳部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,143 --> 00:00:43,895\n部長好今天來這裡想要跟您關心一下高山的農業那首先先請看一張圖片這張圖片呢是1953年也就是國民政府遷台初期的時候的一個南部山區的部落那我們可以看得到他在旁邊的一個土地能工使用的一個情形\n\n3\n00:00:44,855 --> 00:00:45,115\n灰綠冰世界遺產依附高\n\n4\n00:01:05,402 --> 00:01:08,526\n那這個伊富高其實我們雖然很羨慕他但是他也經歷過跟我們目前一樣的處境只是因為當時他們為了一個反水庫的運動那因此呢菲律賓政府在那個地方把他們劃了\n\n5\n00:01:21,661 --> 00:01:35,859\n自治區也就是說他們可以用自己的方式來經營他們的土地所以讓我們有機會今天看到這樣的樣貌那怎麼說因為我們自己現在也正在經歷這樣的一個過程\n\n6\n00:01:37,881 --> 00:02:00,339\n我們過去一百多年前幾十年前原本原住民長期以來所保留的一個傳統能耕方式呢到了國民政府來之後因為那時候的土地還沒有什麼法規您可以看得到當時的蔣總統在我們的中部的地區種起了柑橘高麗菜或者是像是這些茶葉\n\n7\n00:02:01,660 --> 00:02:02,481\n姜麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe\n\n8\n00:02:21,713 --> 00:02:29,182\n他們有一些人啊他們很努力的在這個樹林竹林之間繼續的來沿用過去傳統的混林的農耕法開出一些梯田然後呢旁邊都還有樹木\n\n9\n00:02:36,710 --> 00:02:55,623\n那對他們來講土壤不能流失因為沒有土壤就沒有辦法耕作那我們也很可喜的就是看到在南部的山區有一些原住民的學者在帶著大家回到原來的傳統的農作耕的方式那我們可以看到這個是燒墾他們怎麼做呢就是設立一些防火線然後呢留下一些樹因為為了要讓老鷹\n\n10\n00:03:03,729 --> 00:03:22,234\n等動物棲息可以幫忙吃老鼠這些害蟲然後呢是先除草再來呢進行放火因為這些灰燼是很重要的養分那我們看到這些方式齁我就是覺得說欸國外學者說這個叫傳統農業啊什麼叫傳統農業在地的知識透過幾千年的觀察實驗錯誤中適應最終獲得資源管理的一個最好的方法\n\n11\n00:03:32,037 --> 00:03:43,115\n那外國學者都說可以防極端氣候可以生態保護生物多樣性永續發展增加碳匯蟲害防治部長您覺得好不好\n\n12\n00:03:44,464 --> 00:04:08,864\n我要跟委員說明兩件事情第一件事情就是其實過往我們在波地農業或高山農業我個人覺得說一個很不好的現象就是我們用平地的栽培技術直接導入到高山地區包括高度的農藥高度的肥料的使用但是相對的我們這幾年來特別是我在這兩三年來我一直因為我對原住民的\n\n13\n00:04:09,564 --> 00:04:17,508\n謝謝部長很感謝您做這樣肯定的一個回覆我相信在觀看的這些族人會很開心但是我還是要跟您談困境剛才您談到雖然我們已經開始輔導可是無法在自己的土地用自己的方式耕種是我們的痛\n\n14\n00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:59,949\n因為1976年是很可怕的一年因為有了非督土地使用管制規則一夕之間包括那些礦坑區域的房子原保地上的房子都非法了然後呢1976年三坡保育條例有了一夕之間所有的耕作方式都變非法了森林法\n\n15\n00:05:00,689 --> 00:05:15,526\n還有我們的水保法還有不得燒墾空污法不得使用機具等等等甚至是我們後來推的零下經濟好像也不符合我們想要的那些項目雖然我們很努力我想要說的是說部長\n\n16\n00:05:17,108 --> 00:05:33,734\n我現在因為時間有限我只希望您因為國土計劃法的第23條有開出一個空間要尊重原住民族的土地使用管制規則可以自己定我希望到時候農業部可以支持\n\n17\n00:05:34,614 --> 00:05:56,064\n那多好呢我看這一條你看上面可以攝緩沖帶可以種灌熟作物然後可以用混農林的方式等等這是找原住民的學者專家在地的人去討論出來的但是我知道的是擠進擠退阿跟國土署我希望到時候大家各部會一同的來支持齁那部長可以嗎\n\n18\n00:05:56,784 --> 00:06:11,896\n我想我一定會從我的角度去從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分我想我們會去盤點\n\n19\n00:06:12,677 --> 00:06:34,595\n那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬\n\n20\n00:06:35,456 --> 00:06:56,366\n所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民有機會好好的運用我們的傳統知識來做我們的耕地我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式好不好部長好我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們的所謂的獎勵造林的方式6年60萬他其實比競爬補償\n\n21\n00:06:58,007 --> 00:06:58,327\n謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8209\t10078\t謝謝主席有請部長請農業部陳部長\n19143\t43895\t部長好今天來這裡想要跟您關心一下高山的農業那首先先請看一張圖片這張圖片呢是1953年也就是國民政府遷台初期的時候的一個南部山區的部落那我們可以看得到他在旁邊的一個土地能工使用的一個情形\n44855\t45115\t灰綠冰世界遺產依附高\n65402\t68526\t那這個伊富高其實我們雖然很羨慕他但是他也經歷過跟我們目前一樣的處境只是因為當時他們為了一個反水庫的運動那因此呢菲律賓政府在那個地方把他們劃了\n81661\t95859\t自治區 也就是說他們可以用自己的方式來經營他們的土地所以讓我們有機會今天看到這樣的樣貌那怎麼說因為我們自己現在也正在經歷這樣的一個過程\n97881\t120339\t我們過去一百多年前幾十年前原本原住民長期以來所保留的一個傳統能耕方式呢到了國民政府來之後因為那時候的土地還沒有什麼法規您可以看得到當時的蔣總統在我們的中部的地區種起了柑橘高麗菜或者是像是這些茶葉\n121660\t122481\t姜麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe\n141713\t149182\t他們有一些人啊他們很努力的在這個樹林竹林之間繼續的來沿用過去傳統的混林的農耕法開出一些梯田然後呢旁邊都還有樹木\n156710\t175623\t那對他們來講土壤不能流失因為沒有土壤就沒有辦法耕作那我們也很可喜的就是看到在南部的山區有一些原住民的學者在帶著大家回到原來的傳統的農作耕的方式那我們可以看到這個是燒墾他們怎麼做呢就是設立一些防火線然後呢留下一些樹因為為了要讓老鷹\n183729\t202234\t等動物棲息可以幫忙吃老鼠這些害蟲然後呢是先除草再來呢進行放火因為這些灰燼是很重要的養分那我們看到這些方式齁我就是覺得說欸國外學者說這個叫傳統農業啊什麼叫傳統農業在地的知識透過幾千年的觀察實驗錯誤中適應最終獲得資源管理的一個最好的方法\n212037\t223115\t那外國學者都說可以防極端氣候可以生態保護生物多樣性永續發展增加碳匯蟲害防治部長您覺得好不好\n224464\t248864\t我要跟委員說明兩件事情第一件事情就是其實過往我們在波地農業或高山農業我個人覺得說一個很不好的現象就是我們用平地的栽培技術直接導入到高山地區包括高度的農藥高度的肥料的使用但是相對的我們這幾年來特別是我在這兩三年來我一直因為我對原住民的\n249564\t257508\t謝謝部長很感謝您做這樣肯定的一個回覆我相信在觀看的這些族人會很開心但是我還是要跟您談困境剛才您談到雖然我們已經開始輔導可是無法在自己的土地用自己的方式耕種是我們的痛\n278920\t299949\t因為1976年是很可怕的一年因為有了非督土地使用管制規則一夕之間包括那些礦坑區域的房子原保地上的房子都非法了然後呢1976年三坡保育條例有了一夕之間所有的耕作方式都變非法了森林法\n300689\t315526\t還有我們的水保法還有不得燒墾空污法不得使用機具等等等甚至是我們後來推的零下經濟好像也不符合我們想要的那些項目雖然我們很努力我想要說的是說部長\n317108\t333734\t我現在因為時間有限我只希望您因為國土計劃法的第23條有開出一個空間要尊重原住民族的土地使用管制規則可以自己定我希望到時候農業部可以支持\n334614\t356064\t那 多好呢 我看這一條 你看 上面可以攝緩沖帶 可以種灌熟作物 然後可以用混農林的方式 等等這是找原住民的學者專家 在地的人 去討論出來的但是我知道的是 擠進擠退阿 跟國土署 我希望到時候大家各部會 一同的來支持齁 那部長可以嗎\n356784\t371896\t我想我一定會從我的角度去 從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分 我想我們會去盤點\n372677\t394595\t那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬\n395456\t416366\t所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民有機會好好的運用我們的傳統知識來做我們的耕地我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式好不好部長好我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們的所謂的獎勵造林的方式6年60萬他其實比競爬補償\n418007\t418327\t謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請部長請農業部陳部長\n部長好今天來這裡想要跟您關心一下高山的農業那首先先請看一張圖片這張圖片呢是1953年也就是國民政府遷台初期的時候的一個南部山區的部落那我們可以看得到他在旁邊的一個土地能工使用的一個情形\n灰綠冰世界遺產依附高\n那這個伊富高其實我們雖然很羨慕他但是他也經歷過跟我們目前一樣的處境只是因為當時他們為了一個反水庫的運動那因此呢菲律賓政府在那個地方把他們劃了\n自治區 也就是說他們可以用自己的方式來經營他們的土地所以讓我們有機會今天看到這樣的樣貌那怎麼說因為我們自己現在也正在經歷這樣的一個過程\n我們過去一百多年前幾十年前原本原住民長期以來所保留的一個傳統能耕方式呢到了國民政府來之後因為那時候的土地還沒有什麼法規您可以看得到當時的蔣總統在我們的中部的地區種起了柑橘高麗菜或者是像是這些茶葉\n姜麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe\n他們有一些人啊他們很努力的在這個樹林竹林之間繼續的來沿用過去傳統的混林的農耕法開出一些梯田然後呢旁邊都還有樹木\n那對他們來講土壤不能流失因為沒有土壤就沒有辦法耕作那我們也很可喜的就是看到在南部的山區有一些原住民的學者在帶著大家回到原來的傳統的農作耕的方式那我們可以看到這個是燒墾他們怎麼做呢就是設立一些防火線然後呢留下一些樹因為為了要讓老鷹\n等動物棲息可以幫忙吃老鼠這些害蟲然後呢是先除草再來呢進行放火因為這些灰燼是很重要的養分那我們看到這些方式齁我就是覺得說欸國外學者說這個叫傳統農業啊什麼叫傳統農業在地的知識透過幾千年的觀察實驗錯誤中適應最終獲得資源管理的一個最好的方法\n那外國學者都說可以防極端氣候可以生態保護生物多樣性永續發展增加碳匯蟲害防治部長您覺得好不好\n我要跟委員說明兩件事情第一件事情就是其實過往我們在波地農業或高山農業我個人覺得說一個很不好的現象就是我們用平地的栽培技術直接導入到高山地區包括高度的農藥高度的肥料的使用但是相對的我們這幾年來特別是我在這兩三年來我一直因為我對原住民的\n謝謝部長很感謝您做這樣肯定的一個回覆我相信在觀看的這些族人會很開心但是我還是要跟您談困境剛才您談到雖然我們已經開始輔導可是無法在自己的土地用自己的方式耕種是我們的痛\n因為1976年是很可怕的一年因為有了非督土地使用管制規則一夕之間包括那些礦坑區域的房子原保地上的房子都非法了然後呢1976年三坡保育條例有了一夕之間所有的耕作方式都變非法了森林法\n還有我們的水保法還有不得燒墾空污法不得使用機具等等等甚至是我們後來推的零下經濟好像也不符合我們想要的那些項目雖然我們很努力我想要說的是說部長\n我現在因為時間有限我只希望您因為國土計劃法的第23條有開出一個空間要尊重原住民族的土地使用管制規則可以自己定我希望到時候農業部可以支持\n那 多好呢 我看這一條 你看 上面可以攝緩沖帶 可以種灌熟作物 然後可以用混農林的方式 等等這是找原住民的學者專家 在地的人 去討論出來的但是我知道的是 擠進擠退阿 跟國土署 我希望到時候大家各部會 一同的來支持齁 那部長可以嗎\n我想我一定會從我的角度去 從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分 我想我們會去盤點\n那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬\n所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民有機會好好的運用我們的傳統知識來做我們的耕地我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式好不好部長好我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們的所謂的獎勵造林的方式6年60萬他其實比競爬補償\n謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.209 --> 00:10.078\n謝謝主席有請部長請農業部陳部長\n\n00:19.143 --> 00:43.895\n部長好今天來這裡想要跟您關心一下高山的農業那首先先請看一張圖片這張圖片呢是1953年也就是國民政府遷台初期的時候的一個南部山區的部落那我們可以看得到他在旁邊的一個土地能工使用的一個情形\n\n00:44.855 --> 00:45.115\n灰綠冰世界遺產依附高\n\n01:05.402 --> 01:08.526\n那這個伊富高其實我們雖然很羨慕他但是他也經歷過跟我們目前一樣的處境只是因為當時他們為了一個反水庫的運動那因此呢菲律賓政府在那個地方把他們劃了\n\n01:21.661 --> 01:35.859\n自治區也就是說他們可以用自己的方式來經營他們的土地所以讓我們有機會今天看到這樣的樣貌那怎麼說因為我們自己現在也正在經歷這樣的一個過程\n\n01:37.881 --> 02:00.339\n我們過去一百多年前幾十年前原本原住民長期以來所保留的一個傳統能耕方式呢到了國民政府來之後因為那時候的土地還沒有什麼法規您可以看得到當時的蔣總統在我們的中部的地區種起了柑橘高麗菜或者是像是這些茶葉\n\n02:01.660 --> 02:02.481\n姜麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe\n\n02:21.713 --> 02:29.182\n他們有一些人啊他們很努力的在這個樹林竹林之間繼續的來沿用過去傳統的混林的農耕法開出一些梯田然後呢旁邊都還有樹木\n\n02:36.710 --> 02:55.623\n那對他們來講土壤不能流失因為沒有土壤就沒有辦法耕作那我們也很可喜的就是看到在南部的山區有一些原住民的學者在帶著大家回到原來的傳統的農作耕的方式那我們可以看到這個是燒墾他們怎麼做呢就是設立一些防火線然後呢留下一些樹因為為了要讓老鷹\n\n03:03.729 --> 03:22.234\n等動物棲息可以幫忙吃老鼠這些害蟲然後呢是先除草再來呢進行放火因為這些灰燼是很重要的養分那我們看到這些方式齁我就是覺得說欸國外學者說這個叫傳統農業啊什麼叫傳統農業在地的知識透過幾千年的觀察實驗錯誤中適應最終獲得資源管理的一個最好的方法\n\n03:32.037 --> 03:43.115\n那外國學者都說可以防極端氣候可以生態保護生物多樣性永續發展增加碳匯蟲害防治部長您覺得好不好\n\n03:44.464 --> 04:08.864\n我要跟委員說明兩件事情第一件事情就是其實過往我們在波地農業或高山農業我個人覺得說一個很不好的現象就是我們用平地的栽培技術直接導入到高山地區包括高度的農藥高度的肥料的使用但是相對的我們這幾年來特別是我在這兩三年來我一直因為我對原住民的\n\n04:09.564 --> 04:17.508\n謝謝部長很感謝您做這樣肯定的一個回覆我相信在觀看的這些族人會很開心但是我還是要跟您談困境剛才您談到雖然我們已經開始輔導可是無法在自己的土地用自己的方式耕種是我們的痛\n\n04:38.920 --> 04:59.949\n因為1976年是很可怕的一年因為有了非督土地使用管制規則一夕之間包括那些礦坑區域的房子原保地上的房子都非法了然後呢1976年三坡保育條例有了一夕之間所有的耕作方式都變非法了森林法\n\n05:00.689 --> 05:15.526\n還有我們的水保法還有不得燒墾空污法不得使用機具等等等甚至是我們後來推的零下經濟好像也不符合我們想要的那些項目雖然我們很努力我想要說的是說部長\n\n05:17.108 --> 05:33.734\n我現在因為時間有限我只希望您因為國土計劃法的第23條有開出一個空間要尊重原住民族的土地使用管制規則可以自己定我希望到時候農業部可以支持\n\n05:34.614 --> 05:56.064\n那多好呢我看這一條你看上面可以攝緩沖帶可以種灌熟作物然後可以用混農林的方式等等這是找原住民的學者專家在地的人去討論出來的但是我知道的是擠進擠退阿跟國土署我希望到時候大家各部會一同的來支持齁那部長可以嗎\n\n05:56.784 --> 06:11.896\n我想我一定會從我的角度去從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分我想我們會去盤點\n\n06:12.677 --> 06:34.595\n那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬\n\n06:35.456 --> 06:56.366\n所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民有機會好好的運用我們的傳統知識來做我們的耕地我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式好不好部長好我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們的所謂的獎勵造林的方式6年60萬他其實比競爬補償\n\n06:58.007 --> 06:58.327\n謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.209,"end":10.078,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":19.143,"end":43.895,"text":"部長好今天來這裡想要跟您關心一下高山的農業那首先先請看一張圖片這張圖片呢是1953年也就是國民政府遷台初期的時候的一個南部山區的部落那我們可以看得到他在旁邊的一個土地能工使用的一個情形"},{"start":44.855,"end":45.115,"text":"灰綠冰世界遺產依附高"},{"start":65.402,"end":68.526,"text":"那這個伊富高其實我們雖然很羨慕他但是他也經歷過跟我們目前一樣的處境只是因為當時他們為了一個反水庫的運動那因此呢菲律賓政府在那個地方把他們劃了"},{"start":81.661,"end":95.859,"text":"自治區 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多好呢 我看這一條 你看 上面可以攝緩沖帶 可以種灌熟作物 然後可以用混農林的方式 等等這是找原住民的學者專家 在地的人 去討論出來的但是我知道的是 擠進擠退阿 跟國土署 我希望到時候大家各部會 一同的來支持齁 那部長可以嗎"},{"start":356.784,"end":371.896,"text":"我想我一定會從我的角度去 從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分 我想我們會去盤點"},{"start":372.677,"end":394.595,"text":"那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬"},{"start":395.456,"end":416.366,"text":"所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民有機會好好的運用我們的傳統知識來做我們的耕地我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式好不好部長好我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們的所謂的獎勵造林的方式6年60萬他其實比競爬補償"},{"start":418.007,"end":418.327,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:06:17 - 15:13:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":155375,"gazette":{"lineno":1243,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（15時6分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，很感謝您做這樣肯定的回復，我相信在觀看的這些族人會很開心，但是我還是要跟您談困境。","剛才您談到，雖然我們已經開始輔導，可是無法在自己的土地用自己的方式耕種，是我們的痛。1976年是很可怕的一年，因為有了非都市土地使用管制規則，一夕之間，包括那些礦坑區域的房子、原保地上的房子都變非法了。1976年山坡保育條例有了，一夕之間所有的耕作方式都變非法了，包括森林法、水保法，還有不得燒墾空污法、不得使用機具等等，甚至是我們後來推的林下經濟，好像也不符合我們想要的那些項目，雖然我們很努力。","現在時間有限。部長，我想要說的是，因為國土計畫法第二十三條有開出一個空間，要尊重原住民族的土地使用管制，規則可以自己訂，我希望到時候農業部可以支持。有多好呢？你看這一條，上面可以設緩衝帶、可以種慣俗作物，然後可以用混農林的方式等等，這是找原住民的學者專家、在地的人去討論出來的。但是我知道的是這跟國土署幾進幾退，我希望到時候各部會大家一同地來支持。部長可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我一定會從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的、非極端的，所謂的禁建區、禁墾區的部分以外，我們可以有能夠放寬的一部分，我想我們會去盤點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。如果有問題，我可能也會召開協調會，確保這一些規範，希望部長來支持。","最後，我們原住民說山林是家，土地是血，土地非常重要。雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚地禁伐補償，對於限制給予補償，我們很感謝，但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬。所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民，讓我們有機會好好地運用我們的傳統知識，來做我們的耕地，我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式，好不好？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：好。我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們所謂的獎勵造林的方式，6年60萬元，它其實比禁伐補償有更好的……因為我們這些森林需要復育……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望不要走回頭路，不要砍樹造林，要有一些做法。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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