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00:01:16,393\n只要對國家未來有信心,我們任何一次的接觸,我們都要深具信心。大家本來都是這樣的期待的,而且我知道你要來當這個葛魁的時候,大家最期望就是你過去是調和鼎賴的功夫非常的好,可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬,我比較好奇的是你背後的這個賴總統,我說實在的,一般來說根據我們憲法44條規定,當院跟院當中有任何沒有辦法解決有爭執的時候,其實總統\n\n4\n00:01:18,254 --> 00:01:18,294\n主席\n\n5\n00:01:30,509 --> 00:01:48,123\n謝謝委員總統跟我在憲法的質詢上的分工是非常清楚明確而且我們也是這樣在進行的那這一次跟韓院長之間是我們那一天我們兩人自己互相的約定我想如果不用動到憲法的層級我們可以在兩院之間來\n\n6\n00:01:48,763 --> 00:02:04,205\n我們也期待啦,而且院長你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大啦,彼此各退一步的話,我們就可以好好把這總預算送到委員會裡面好好來去做,所以我們對於今天的和解,其實不要只是大拜拜式的,每個人都派出來,然後氣氛氛圍非常的好,但是最具體,\n\n7\n00:02:05,046 --> 00:02:05,687\n謝謝委員,我也希望在\n\n8\n00:02:23,430 --> 00:02:51,221\n法律的原則性問題能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後,我們就能夠順利往後走。我們期待,我們期待,否則的話就是無解。好,我們來看看我們這個碳費。現在目前的碳費已經拍板了,大概就是每公噸300元,但是這個不管是經濟部、產業界或是環團,其實都是非常的不滿意的。而且我知道經濟部長是公開表示相當的遺憾。我們要經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿這個環境部還是對行政院表達深度的遺憾?\n\n9\n00:02:52,752 --> 00:03:14,856\n報告委員,我想這個碳費的部分,我們還是,因為企業是我們在照顧的,那環境部他有維護這個整體國家的這個立場。我完全同意,部長我知道,我完全知道產業上那個需求,所以我想問一下這個院長,你們之間到底有沒有溝通過,經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過,感覺起來好像是要在黨內互打的概念,而且我現在要先確定一下,\n\n10\n00:03:15,416 --> 00:03:43,598\n大家最關切的是你會把這個碳費轉嫁到我們這個所謂的消費者的身上造成所謂的綠色通膨其實這是大家比較關切的是的委員當然經過數次的溝通兩個部會跟其他相關部會跟我本人我們都參加過經濟部長深度遺憾如果今天我們訂出來一個標準經濟部完全叫好那我覺得環境部那邊就會造成很大的壓力所以你比較支持經濟部還是比較支持環境部\n\n11\n00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:44,859\n三百塊\n\n12\n00:04:05,942 --> 00:04:20,911\n一頓但是你如果有一些優惠自主排碳的話可以50也可以有100我們就這樣算這個range好的如果說是平均來說一頓大概是100塊人的話都幾乎要繳到7到8億升到百億的這樣子的碳費那你如何保證這是我們比較關切的\n\n13\n00:04:21,992 --> 00:04:45,078\n這些東西到底會不會轉嫁﹖包括中油﹖他其實也很想爭取把這個篡費的公式放到他們這樣的一個公式裡面﹖更不要說臺電也想比照這個水費的收費一樣有代收的方法﹖這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中﹖所以院長你可不可以保證到目前為止﹖永續不用再講了大家都同意世界的趨勢﹖會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔﹖\n\n14\n00:04:46,294 --> 00:05:06,905\n委員我們常常關心世界永續的問題,我們每個人多多少少付出一點的責任是要的。一點點的責任到底有多少,其實我們還是要關切一下,你看目前為止商桌就做出一個大的一個非常嚴謹的一個報告,他說碳費會帶動中南部的房價,我跟你說你現在先擔保也買房,\n\n15\n00:05:08,646 --> 00:05:29,061\n太多人會告訴你這叫碳肺保底的概念,因為營建的成本未來會提高,最近你看不到,可是他告訴你3、5年之後,因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會起底,所以目前為止已經漲到不行了,除了台積電效應之外,碳肺保底的概念已經變成我們現在買房子裡面,大家來說服大家了。\n\n16\n00:05:29,521 --> 00:05:55,323\n我會明確注意這個事情,產業的發展跟所受的衝擊,部長來答覆。報告委員,我想這一部分經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化,我們大概都有一個小組,不斷地觀察指數的變異,然後我們會有一些方法,那碳稅的部分,我們跟環境部是在討論,這個是在未來,他現在目前提出這樣100塊,\n\n17\n00:05:57,265 --> 00:06:12,660\n我現在只要提醒部長我們希望大家能夠檢探我告訴你這沒有問題但是預期的心理已經產生了所以你看對於這個房市的影響你們村裡已經對這個新清安的風暴已經可以請很多的大佬來喝咖啡了你這個碳費的部分\n\n18\n00:06:14,642 --> 00:06:14,802\n主席\n\n19\n00:06:31,212 --> 00:06:49,066\n但是很顯然的很多的亂象還是存在的,我想兩位在這邊應該看出來,包括碳的鏈財,告訴你現在有非常多的班開班授課告訴大家如何可以通過一套的方法讓這個企業可以少甚至不要,還有第二個,很多最重要的是認證的部分。\n\n20\n00:06:49,366 --> 00:06:50,427\n三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n21\n00:07:05,478 --> 00:07:06,359\n現在看到沒有?\n\n22\n00:07:34,055 --> 00:07:51,675\n報告委員因為環境部也是去年才成立那麼我們現在經濟部我們上來以後我們在不斷的在討論那我們希望說明年能夠提出來就像您剛才所指正的經濟部標準局現在也不斷的在討論這樣的一個標準是啦對部長我這樣已經特別解體了\n\n23\n00:07:54,498 --> 00:08:12,727\n我剛前提的環境部是去年才成立的可是這就告訴打臉我們過去我們過去8年是民進黨執政不是你們但是過去這些都是知道要做的到目前為止才輪到你們身上然後才告訴我去年成立而且還有很重要的我看不清楚像這個院長你知道我們探權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎上次有講過我現在我看在我你的家裡對啊你對\n\n24\n00:08:21,052 --> 00:08:46,744\n你高雄啦,拜託,每天去高雄看一看好不好。但是呢,他安全教育所設在高雄,是在前鎮,但是你知道成立一年多了,院長成立一年多,這很重要喔。但是呢,成立一年多,現在馬上被詐騙集團動用總經理的照片跟資料,而且用AI身為的合成照片裡面,在社群裡面,來販賣廣發金融商品跟投資的訊息,你說對不對?\n\n25\n00:08:48,124 --> 00:09:07,231\n委員長,探權交易才成立一年多,很符合現代的潮流,李國雄,我告訴你,行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團,你們的速度要比上詐騙集團,他比你更了解,一年多來,他就已經不斷用這個方法來去做這樣一個處理,所以這個東西是很嚴重的,院長你不覺得嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:08,311 --> 00:09:25,265\n是,詐騙的問題我們一步一步來處理,柯委員報告我們是去年才曾通過這個氣候變遷的相關法令,現在環境部在9月份才公布了三個執法,所以他們一步一步的來處理,並不是說我們過去不作為,是現在到了我們必須\n\n27\n00:09:26,706 --> 00:09:49,186\n我還是覺得效率是晚了一些連詐騙都知道要用我們的探權交易來做詐騙這個我們馬上處理而且很重要的我說我覺得經濟部長不能只是聲表遺憾我知道你很遺憾因為你站在這個產業的這一方嘛一定會知道會造成經濟的一些的影響嘛但是我覺得這還是要辦法而且最重要是碳費\n\n28\n00:09:50,367 --> 00:09:51,988\n要怎麼分配?\n\n29\n00:09:51,988 --> 00:10:09,576\n我說是知道的,真的要去高雄說幾句話,高雄現在是三高,碳排高、污染高、碳被攪的高,所以我們現在很擔心什麼?費用攪了這麼多,到時候總部都不在我們高雄住在台北,污染給我們吸,然後錢攪到台北,這樣可不可以?\n\n30\n00:10:10,817 --> 00:10:31,000\n以後這個部分你要怎麼解決?這跟我們得利?報告委員,我們現在針對這個命題,這麼大的一個命題,我們提出一個可以改變的方法。也就是說我進來以後,我提出來一個境外觀內的這樣的一個概念。我們幫助台灣所謂用電、碳排高比較大的產業往外移走。\n\n31\n00:10:32,060 --> 00:10:56,135\n對,這個是我們希望透過政府的力量,然後替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。對,因為美國也常說這個部分嘛,你把這個碳費收完之後,你為了要活絡地方的產業經濟,你有一套配套的做法嘛,這是我今天特別要提出來嘛,特別到高雄,你到底我們繳了這麼多費用,而且你看嘛,這個目前來說,你們也宣布要用三大綠色基金,院長我恭喜你,我看你的綠色基金,我怕了,你看,100億的綠色成長基金,\n\n32\n00:10:58,817 --> 00:11:14,634\n一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、\n\n33\n00:11:19,859 --> 00:11:37,389\n委員,我們跟你報告一下,您剛剛所指教的這三個領域,我們都可以再處理。我們會把高雄它原來產生碳高的地方、電高的地方,把它移到其他的地區,讓高雄在原來的地方可以高質化,做一些\n\n34\n00:11:39,111 --> 00:11:41,353\n二零二二年竟然比二零二一年的碳排還要增加4.6%拜託\n\n35\n00:12:08,971 --> 00:12:24,095\n股尼真的是已經做了這樣的處理了。碳排還是要增加。所以說我說實在的,這是不是有辦法透過徵收這個碳費來讓我們環境更加永續。這個數字會說謊。院長、部長,對吧?\n\n36\n00:12:24,095 --> 00:12:31,898\n所以說以價質量、經濟效果,剛剛真的有把這個碳排的這個大戶就因此要怎麼處置。這也是個大的課題喔,對吧?\n\n37\n00:12:33,818 --> 00:13:00,938\n所以這樣我們更需要來協助、輔導、要求他們能夠...你不要到時候到了2024比2023的碳排又更高能夠達到的自儲減量的這個產業他才能夠用優惠的碳排所以我就是告訴你數字嘛用了這些東西到時候你看碳排量還是很高像技術又怎麼樣發達最後的時間真的很有限啦我確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛因為郭部長當開始的時候6月你就說你不贊成波普但是你們的行政院發言人馬上幫你講說這1000億\n\n38\n00:13:03,180 --> 00:13:04,901\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n39\n00:13:29,514 --> 00:13:36,346\n如果說我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持,然後我們可以改善\n\n40\n00:13:38,884 --> 00:13:58,191\n臺電的這個財務我相信我們現在因為這個材料材料原材料的這個價格看起來已經到了高點我們現在購電量是比較高但是我們的那個整個材料費是降低的你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭完之後是完全往下降我會要求臺電的這個管理\n\n41\n00:13:59,231 --> 00:14:13,183\n能夠精進所以那個院長有要求我兩年以兩年內如果這個臺電不能夠正向得了這個補助然後兩年內你還要漲價那可能就是我告別的時候\n\n42\n00:14:14,991 --> 00:14:15,632\n發言委員：柯志恩\n\n43\n00:14:35,194 --> 00:14:37,237\n我們的補助對我們的民生物價的穩定有非常正向的成效。\n\n44\n00:14:51,072 --> 00:15:12,557\n還有拿4500萬去做宣傳費用告訴大家臺電是多麼需要大家的補助我講實在的現在花了4500萬在做宣傳啊遠不如好好來處理一下到底整個管理的機制是怎麼樣好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來給關關我們的臺電最後一個問題每次賬戶不能超過3%好不好但是現在賬戶嘛不是11就是12.5%我覺得你那個3%都是頂多的\n\n45\n00:15:16,118 --> 00:15:16,198\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6144\t8427\t謝謝主席,我們是不是請卓院長?卓院長請備詢。各位好。院長好。聽說你明天要在高雄嗎?\n22406\t30451\t今天中午大家比較關切就是要吃一個所謂的和解飯,你對這卷和解飯的信心到底有多少?你覺得可以解決我們目前預算卡關的問題嗎?\n49121\t76393\t只要對國家未來有信心,我們任何一次的接觸,我們都要深具信心。大家本來都是這樣的期待的,而且我知道你要來當這個葛魁的時候,大家最期望就是你過去是調和鼎賴的功夫非常的好,可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬,我比較好奇的是你背後的這個賴總統,我說實在的,一般來說根據我們憲法44條規定,當院跟院當中有任何沒有辦法解決有爭執的時候,其實總統\n78254\t78294\t主席\n90509\t108123\t謝謝委員 總統跟我在憲法的質詢上的分工是非常清楚明確而且我們也是這樣在進行的那這一次跟韓院長之間是我們那一天我們兩人自己互相的約定我想如果不用動到憲法的層級我們可以在兩院之間來\n108763\t124205\t我們也期待啦,而且院長你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大啦,彼此各退一步的話,我們就可以好好把這總預算送到委員會裡面好好來去做,所以我們對於今天的和解,其實不要只是大拜拜式的,每個人都派出來,然後氣氛氛圍非常的好,但是最具體,\n125046\t125687\t謝謝委員,我也希望在\n143430\t171221\t法律的原則性問題能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後,我們就能夠順利往後走。我們期待,我們期待,否則的話就是無解。好,我們來看看我們這個碳費。現在目前的碳費已經拍板了,大概就是每公噸300元,但是這個不管是經濟部、產業界或是環團,其實都是非常的不滿意的。而且我知道經濟部長是公開表示相當的遺憾。我們要經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿這個環境部還是對行政院表達深度的遺憾?\n172752\t194856\t報告委員,我想這個碳費的部分,我們還是,因為企業是我們在照顧的,那環境部他有維護這個整體國家的這個立場。我完全同意,部長我知道,我完全知道產業上那個需求,所以我想問一下這個院長,你們之間到底有沒有溝通過,經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過,感覺起來好像是要在黨內互打的概念,而且我現在要先確定一下,\n195416\t223598\t大家最關切的是你會把這個碳費轉嫁到我們這個所謂的消費者的身上造成所謂的綠色通膨其實這是大家比較關切的是的委員當然經過數次的溝通兩個部會跟其他相關部會跟我本人我們都參加過經濟部長深度遺憾如果今天我們訂出來一個標準經濟部完全叫好那我覺得環境部那邊就會造成很大的壓力所以你比較支持經濟部還是比較支持環境部\n224719\t224859\t三百塊\n245942\t260911\t一頓但是你如果有一些優惠自主排碳的話可以50也可以有100我們就這樣算這個range好的如果說是平均來說一頓大概是100塊人的話都幾乎要繳到7到8億升到百億的這樣子的碳費那你如何保證這是我們比較關切的\n261992\t285078\t這些東西到底會不會轉嫁﹖包括中油﹖他其實也很想爭取把這個篡費的公式放到他們這樣的一個公式裡面﹖更不要說臺電也想比照這個水費的收費一樣有代收的方法﹖這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中﹖所以院長你可不可以保證到目前為止﹖永續不用再講了大家都同意世界的趨勢﹖會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔﹖\n286294\t306905\t委員我們常常關心世界永續的問題,我們每個人多多少少付出一點的責任是要的。 一點點的責任到底有多少,其實我們還是要關切一下,你看目前為止商桌就做出一個大的一個非常嚴謹的一個報告,他說碳費會帶動中南部的房價,我跟你說你現在先擔保也買房,\n308646\t329061\t太多人會告訴你這叫碳肺保底的概念,因為營建的成本未來會提高,最近你看不到,可是他告訴你3、5年之後,因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會起底,所以目前為止已經漲到不行了,除了台積電效應之外,碳肺保底的概念已經變成我們現在買房子裡面,大家來說服大家了。\n329521\t355323\t我會明確注意這個事情,產業的發展跟所受的衝擊,部長來答覆。報告委員,我想這一部分經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化,我們大概都有一個小組,不斷地觀察指數的變異,然後我們會有一些方法,那碳稅的部分,我們跟環境部是在討論,這個是在未來,他現在目前提出這樣100塊,\n357265\t372660\t我現在只要提醒部長我們希望大家能夠檢探我告訴你這沒有問題但是預期的心理已經產生了所以你看對於這個房市的影響你們村裡已經對這個新清安的風暴已經可以請很多的大佬來喝咖啡了你這個碳費的部分\n374642\t374802\t主席\n391212\t409066\t但是很顯然的很多的亂象還是存在的,我想兩位在這邊應該看出來,包括碳的鏈財,告訴你現在有非常多的班開班授課告訴大家如何可以通過一套的方法讓這個企業可以少甚至不要,還有第二個,很多最重要的是認證的部分。\n409366\t410427\t三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n425478\t426359\t現在看到沒有?\n454055\t471675\t報告委員 因為環境部也是去年才成立 那麼我們現在經濟部我們上來以後我們在不斷的在討論 那我們希望說明年能夠提出來 就像您剛才所指正的經濟部標準局現在也不斷的在討論這樣的一個標準 是啦 對 部長我這樣已經特別解體了\n474498\t492727\t我剛前提的環境部是去年才成立的可是這就告訴打臉我們過去我們過去8年是民進黨執政不是你們但是過去這些都是知道要做的到目前為止才輪到你們身上然後才告訴我去年成立而且還有很重要的我看不清楚像這個院長你知道我們探權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎上次有講過我現在我看在我你的家裡對啊你對\n501052\t526744\t你高雄啦,拜託,每天去高雄看一看好不好。但是呢,他安全教育所設在高雄,是在前鎮,但是你知道成立一年多了,院長成立一年多,這很重要喔。但是呢,成立一年多,現在馬上被詐騙集團動用總經理的照片跟資料,而且用AI身為的合成照片裡面,在社群裡面,來販賣廣發金融商品跟投資的訊息,你說對不對?\n528124\t547231\t委員長,探權交易才成立一年多,很符合現代的潮流,李國雄,我告訴你,行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團,你們的速度要比上詐騙集團,他比你更了解,一年多來,他就已經不斷用這個方法來去做這樣一個處理,所以這個東西是很嚴重的,院長你不覺得嗎?\n548311\t565265\t是,詐騙的問題我們一步一步來處理,柯委員報告我們是去年才曾通過這個氣候變遷的相關法令,現在環境部在9月份才公布了三個執法,所以他們一步一步的來處理,並不是說我們過去不作為,是現在到了我們必須\n566706\t589186\t我還是覺得效率是晚了一些 連詐騙都知道要用我們的探權交易來做詐騙 這個我們馬上處理而且很重要的 我說我覺得經濟部長不能只是聲表遺憾 我知道你很遺憾 因為你站在這個產業的這一方嘛 一定會知道會造成經濟的一些的影響嘛 但是我覺得這還是要辦法 而且最重要是碳費\n590367\t591988\t要怎麼分配?\n591988\t609576\t我說是知道的,真的要去高雄說幾句話,高雄現在是三高,碳排高、污染高、碳被攪的高,所以我們現在很擔心什麼?費用攪了這麼多,到時候總部都不在我們高雄住在台北,污染給我們吸,然後錢攪到台北,這樣可不可以?\n610817\t631000\t以後這個部分你要怎麼解決?這跟我們得利?報告委員,我們現在針對這個命題,這麼大的一個命題,我們提出一個可以改變的方法。也就是說我進來以後,我提出來一個境外觀內的這樣的一個概念。我們幫助台灣所謂用電、碳排高比較大的產業往外移走。\n632060\t656135\t對,這個是我們希望透過政府的力量,然後替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。對,因為美國也常說這個部分嘛,你把這個碳費收完之後,你為了要活絡地方的產業經濟,你有一套配套的做法嘛,這是我今天特別要提出來嘛,特別到高雄,你到底我們繳了這麼多費用,而且你看嘛,這個目前來說,你們也宣布要用三大綠色基金,院長我恭喜你,我看你的綠色基金,我怕了,你看,100億的綠色成長基金,\n658817\t674634\t一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、\n679859\t697389\t委員,我們跟你報告一下,您剛剛所指教的這三個領域,我們都可以再處理。我們會把高雄它原來產生碳高的地方、電高的地方,把它移到其他的地區,讓高雄在原來的地方可以高質化,做一些\n699111\t701353\t二零二二年竟然比二零二一年的碳排還要增加4.6%拜託\n728971\t744095\t股尼真的是已經做了這樣的處理了。 碳排還是要增加。 所以說我說實在的,這是不是有辦法透過徵收這個碳費來讓我們環境更加永續。 這個數字會說謊。 院長、部長,對吧?\n744095\t751898\t所以說以價質量、經濟效果,剛剛真的有把這個碳排的這個大戶就因此要怎麼處置。 這也是個大的課題喔,對吧?\n753818\t780938\t所以這樣我們更需要來協助、輔導、要求他們能夠...你不要到時候到了2024比2023的碳排又更高能夠達到的自儲減量的這個產業他才能夠用優惠的碳排所以我就是告訴你數字嘛用了這些東西到時候你看碳排量還是很高像技術又怎麼樣發達最後的時間真的很有限啦我確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛因為郭部長當開始的時候6月你就說你不贊成波普但是你們的行政院發言人馬上幫你講說這1000億\n783180\t784901\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n809514\t816346\t如果說我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持,然後我們可以改善\n818884\t838191\t臺電的這個財務我相信我們現在因為這個材料材料原材料的這個價格看起來已經到了高點我們現在購電量是比較高但是我們的那個整個材料費是降低的你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭完之後是完全往下降我會要求臺電的這個管理\n839231\t853183\t能夠精進所以那個院長有要求我兩年以兩年內如果這個臺電不能夠正向得了這個補助然後兩年內你還要漲價那可能就是我告別的時候\n854991\t855632\t發言委員：柯志恩\n875194\t877237\t我們的補助對我們的民生物價的穩定有非常正向的成效。\n891072\t912557\t還有拿4500萬去做宣傳費用告訴大家臺電是多麼需要大家的補助我講實在的現在花了4500萬在做宣傳啊遠不如好好來處理一下到底整個管理的機制是怎麼樣好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來給關關我們的臺電最後一個問題每次賬戶不能超過3%好不好但是現在賬戶嘛不是11就是12.5%我覺得你那個3%都是頂多的\n916118\t916198\t主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請卓院長?卓院長請備詢。各位好。院長好。聽說你明天要在高雄嗎?\n今天中午大家比較關切就是要吃一個所謂的和解飯,你對這卷和解飯的信心到底有多少?你覺得可以解決我們目前預算卡關的問題嗎?\n只要對國家未來有信心,我們任何一次的接觸,我們都要深具信心。大家本來都是這樣的期待的,而且我知道你要來當這個葛魁的時候,大家最期望就是你過去是調和鼎賴的功夫非常的好,可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬,我比較好奇的是你背後的這個賴總統,我說實在的,一般來說根據我們憲法44條規定,當院跟院當中有任何沒有辦法解決有爭執的時候,其實總統\n主席\n謝謝委員 總統跟我在憲法的質詢上的分工是非常清楚明確而且我們也是這樣在進行的那這一次跟韓院長之間是我們那一天我們兩人自己互相的約定我想如果不用動到憲法的層級我們可以在兩院之間來\n我們也期待啦,而且院長你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大啦,彼此各退一步的話,我們就可以好好把這總預算送到委員會裡面好好來去做,所以我們對於今天的和解,其實不要只是大拜拜式的,每個人都派出來,然後氣氛氛圍非常的好,但是最具體,\n謝謝委員,我也希望在\n法律的原則性問題能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後,我們就能夠順利往後走。我們期待,我們期待,否則的話就是無解。好,我們來看看我們這個碳費。現在目前的碳費已經拍板了,大概就是每公噸300元,但是這個不管是經濟部、產業界或是環團,其實都是非常的不滿意的。而且我知道經濟部長是公開表示相當的遺憾。我們要經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿這個環境部還是對行政院表達深度的遺憾?\n報告委員,我想這個碳費的部分,我們還是,因為企業是我們在照顧的,那環境部他有維護這個整體國家的這個立場。我完全同意,部長我知道,我完全知道產業上那個需求,所以我想問一下這個院長,你們之間到底有沒有溝通過,經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過,感覺起來好像是要在黨內互打的概念,而且我現在要先確定一下,\n大家最關切的是你會把這個碳費轉嫁到我們這個所謂的消費者的身上造成所謂的綠色通膨其實這是大家比較關切的是的委員當然經過數次的溝通兩個部會跟其他相關部會跟我本人我們都參加過經濟部長深度遺憾如果今天我們訂出來一個標準經濟部完全叫好那我覺得環境部那邊就會造成很大的壓力所以你比較支持經濟部還是比較支持環境部\n三百塊\n一頓但是你如果有一些優惠自主排碳的話可以50也可以有100我們就這樣算這個range好的如果說是平均來說一頓大概是100塊人的話都幾乎要繳到7到8億升到百億的這樣子的碳費那你如何保證這是我們比較關切的\n這些東西到底會不會轉嫁﹖包括中油﹖他其實也很想爭取把這個篡費的公式放到他們這樣的一個公式裡面﹖更不要說臺電也想比照這個水費的收費一樣有代收的方法﹖這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中﹖所以院長你可不可以保證到目前為止﹖永續不用再講了大家都同意世界的趨勢﹖會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔﹖\n委員我們常常關心世界永續的問題,我們每個人多多少少付出一點的責任是要的。 一點點的責任到底有多少,其實我們還是要關切一下,你看目前為止商桌就做出一個大的一個非常嚴謹的一個報告,他說碳費會帶動中南部的房價,我跟你說你現在先擔保也買房,\n太多人會告訴你這叫碳肺保底的概念,因為營建的成本未來會提高,最近你看不到,可是他告訴你3、5年之後,因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會起底,所以目前為止已經漲到不行了,除了台積電效應之外,碳肺保底的概念已經變成我們現在買房子裡面,大家來說服大家了。\n我會明確注意這個事情,產業的發展跟所受的衝擊,部長來答覆。報告委員,我想這一部分經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化,我們大概都有一個小組,不斷地觀察指數的變異,然後我們會有一些方法,那碳稅的部分,我們跟環境部是在討論,這個是在未來,他現在目前提出這樣100塊,\n我現在只要提醒部長我們希望大家能夠檢探我告訴你這沒有問題但是預期的心理已經產生了所以你看對於這個房市的影響你們村裡已經對這個新清安的風暴已經可以請很多的大佬來喝咖啡了你這個碳費的部分\n主席\n但是很顯然的很多的亂象還是存在的,我想兩位在這邊應該看出來,包括碳的鏈財,告訴你現在有非常多的班開班授課告訴大家如何可以通過一套的方法讓這個企業可以少甚至不要,還有第二個,很多最重要的是認證的部分。\n三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n現在看到沒有?\n報告委員 因為環境部也是去年才成立 那麼我們現在經濟部我們上來以後我們在不斷的在討論 那我們希望說明年能夠提出來 就像您剛才所指正的經濟部標準局現在也不斷的在討論這樣的一個標準 是啦 對 部長我這樣已經特別解體了\n我剛前提的環境部是去年才成立的可是這就告訴打臉我們過去我們過去8年是民進黨執政不是你們但是過去這些都是知道要做的到目前為止才輪到你們身上然後才告訴我去年成立而且還有很重要的我看不清楚像這個院長你知道我們探權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎上次有講過我現在我看在我你的家裡對啊你對\n你高雄啦,拜託,每天去高雄看一看好不好。但是呢,他安全教育所設在高雄,是在前鎮,但是你知道成立一年多了,院長成立一年多,這很重要喔。但是呢,成立一年多,現在馬上被詐騙集團動用總經理的照片跟資料,而且用AI身為的合成照片裡面,在社群裡面,來販賣廣發金融商品跟投資的訊息,你說對不對?\n委員長,探權交易才成立一年多,很符合現代的潮流,李國雄,我告訴你,行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團,你們的速度要比上詐騙集團,他比你更了解,一年多來,他就已經不斷用這個方法來去做這樣一個處理,所以這個東西是很嚴重的,院長你不覺得嗎?\n是,詐騙的問題我們一步一步來處理,柯委員報告我們是去年才曾通過這個氣候變遷的相關法令,現在環境部在9月份才公布了三個執法,所以他們一步一步的來處理,並不是說我們過去不作為,是現在到了我們必須\n我還是覺得效率是晚了一些 連詐騙都知道要用我們的探權交易來做詐騙 這個我們馬上處理而且很重要的 我說我覺得經濟部長不能只是聲表遺憾 我知道你很遺憾 因為你站在這個產業的這一方嘛 一定會知道會造成經濟的一些的影響嘛 但是我覺得這還是要辦法 而且最重要是碳費\n要怎麼分配?\n我說是知道的,真的要去高雄說幾句話,高雄現在是三高,碳排高、污染高、碳被攪的高,所以我們現在很擔心什麼?費用攪了這麼多,到時候總部都不在我們高雄住在台北,污染給我們吸,然後錢攪到台北,這樣可不可以?\n以後這個部分你要怎麼解決?這跟我們得利?報告委員,我們現在針對這個命題,這麼大的一個命題,我們提出一個可以改變的方法。也就是說我進來以後,我提出來一個境外觀內的這樣的一個概念。我們幫助台灣所謂用電、碳排高比較大的產業往外移走。\n對,這個是我們希望透過政府的力量,然後替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。對,因為美國也常說這個部分嘛,你把這個碳費收完之後,你為了要活絡地方的產業經濟,你有一套配套的做法嘛,這是我今天特別要提出來嘛,特別到高雄,你到底我們繳了這麼多費用,而且你看嘛,這個目前來說,你們也宣布要用三大綠色基金,院長我恭喜你,我看你的綠色基金,我怕了,你看,100億的綠色成長基金,\n一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、\n委員,我們跟你報告一下,您剛剛所指教的這三個領域,我們都可以再處理。我們會把高雄它原來產生碳高的地方、電高的地方,把它移到其他的地區,讓高雄在原來的地方可以高質化,做一些\n二零二二年竟然比二零二一年的碳排還要增加4.6%拜託\n股尼真的是已經做了這樣的處理了。 碳排還是要增加。 所以說我說實在的,這是不是有辦法透過徵收這個碳費來讓我們環境更加永續。 這個數字會說謊。 院長、部長,對吧?\n所以說以價質量、經濟效果,剛剛真的有把這個碳排的這個大戶就因此要怎麼處置。 這也是個大的課題喔,對吧?\n所以這樣我們更需要來協助、輔導、要求他們能夠...你不要到時候到了2024比2023的碳排又更高能夠達到的自儲減量的這個產業他才能夠用優惠的碳排所以我就是告訴你數字嘛用了這些東西到時候你看碳排量還是很高像技術又怎麼樣發達最後的時間真的很有限啦我確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛因為郭部長當開始的時候6月你就說你不贊成波普但是你們的行政院發言人馬上幫你講說這1000億\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n如果說我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持,然後我們可以改善\n臺電的這個財務我相信我們現在因為這個材料材料原材料的這個價格看起來已經到了高點我們現在購電量是比較高但是我們的那個整個材料費是降低的你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭完之後是完全往下降我會要求臺電的這個管理\n能夠精進所以那個院長有要求我兩年以兩年內如果這個臺電不能夠正向得了這個補助然後兩年內你還要漲價那可能就是我告別的時候\n發言委員：柯志恩\n我們的補助對我們的民生物價的穩定有非常正向的成效。\n還有拿4500萬去做宣傳費用告訴大家臺電是多麼需要大家的補助我講實在的現在花了4500萬在做宣傳啊遠不如好好來處理一下到底整個管理的機制是怎麼樣好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來給關關我們的臺電最後一個問題每次賬戶不能超過3%好不好但是現在賬戶嘛不是11就是12.5%我覺得你那個3%都是頂多的\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.144 --> 00:08.427\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請卓院長?卓院長請備詢。各位好。院長好。聽說你明天要在高雄嗎?\n\n00:22.406 --> 00:30.451\n今天中午大家比較關切就是要吃一個所謂的和解飯,你對這卷和解飯的信心到底有多少?你覺得可以解決我們目前預算卡關的問題嗎?\n\n00:49.121 --> 01:16.393\n只要對國家未來有信心,我們任何一次的接觸,我們都要深具信心。大家本來都是這樣的期待的,而且我知道你要來當這個葛魁的時候,大家最期望就是你過去是調和鼎賴的功夫非常的好,可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬,我比較好奇的是你背後的這個賴總統,我說實在的,一般來說根據我們憲法44條規定,當院跟院當中有任何沒有辦法解決有爭執的時候,其實總統\n\n01:18.254 --> 01:18.294\n主席\n\n01:30.509 --> 01:48.123\n謝謝委員總統跟我在憲法的質詢上的分工是非常清楚明確而且我們也是這樣在進行的那這一次跟韓院長之間是我們那一天我們兩人自己互相的約定我想如果不用動到憲法的層級我們可以在兩院之間來\n\n01:48.763 --> 02:04.205\n我們也期待啦,而且院長你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大啦,彼此各退一步的話,我們就可以好好把這總預算送到委員會裡面好好來去做,所以我們對於今天的和解,其實不要只是大拜拜式的,每個人都派出來,然後氣氛氛圍非常的好,但是最具體,\n\n02:05.046 --> 02:05.687\n謝謝委員,我也希望在\n\n02:23.430 --> 02:51.221\n法律的原則性問題能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後,我們就能夠順利往後走。我們期待,我們期待,否則的話就是無解。好,我們來看看我們這個碳費。現在目前的碳費已經拍板了,大概就是每公噸300元,但是這個不管是經濟部、產業界或是環團,其實都是非常的不滿意的。而且我知道經濟部長是公開表示相當的遺憾。我們要經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿這個環境部還是對行政院表達深度的遺憾?\n\n02:52.752 --> 03:14.856\n報告委員,我想這個碳費的部分,我們還是,因為企業是我們在照顧的,那環境部他有維護這個整體國家的這個立場。我完全同意,部長我知道,我完全知道產業上那個需求,所以我想問一下這個院長,你們之間到底有沒有溝通過,經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過,感覺起來好像是要在黨內互打的概念,而且我現在要先確定一下,\n\n03:15.416 --> 03:43.598\n大家最關切的是你會把這個碳費轉嫁到我們這個所謂的消費者的身上造成所謂的綠色通膨其實這是大家比較關切的是的委員當然經過數次的溝通兩個部會跟其他相關部會跟我本人我們都參加過經濟部長深度遺憾如果今天我們訂出來一個標準經濟部完全叫好那我覺得環境部那邊就會造成很大的壓力所以你比較支持經濟部還是比較支持環境部\n\n03:44.719 --> 03:44.859\n三百塊\n\n04:05.942 --> 04:20.911\n一頓但是你如果有一些優惠自主排碳的話可以50也可以有100我們就這樣算這個range好的如果說是平均來說一頓大概是100塊人的話都幾乎要繳到7到8億升到百億的這樣子的碳費那你如何保證這是我們比較關切的\n\n04:21.992 --> 04:45.078\n這些東西到底會不會轉嫁﹖包括中油﹖他其實也很想爭取把這個篡費的公式放到他們這樣的一個公式裡面﹖更不要說臺電也想比照這個水費的收費一樣有代收的方法﹖這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中﹖所以院長你可不可以保證到目前為止﹖永續不用再講了大家都同意世界的趨勢﹖會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔﹖\n\n04:46.294 --> 05:06.905\n委員我們常常關心世界永續的問題,我們每個人多多少少付出一點的責任是要的。一點點的責任到底有多少,其實我們還是要關切一下,你看目前為止商桌就做出一個大的一個非常嚴謹的一個報告,他說碳費會帶動中南部的房價,我跟你說你現在先擔保也買房,\n\n05:08.646 --> 05:29.061\n太多人會告訴你這叫碳肺保底的概念,因為營建的成本未來會提高,最近你看不到,可是他告訴你3、5年之後,因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會起底,所以目前為止已經漲到不行了,除了台積電效應之外,碳肺保底的概念已經變成我們現在買房子裡面,大家來說服大家了。\n\n05:29.521 --> 05:55.323\n我會明確注意這個事情,產業的發展跟所受的衝擊,部長來答覆。報告委員,我想這一部分經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化,我們大概都有一個小組,不斷地觀察指數的變異,然後我們會有一些方法,那碳稅的部分,我們跟環境部是在討論,這個是在未來,他現在目前提出這樣100塊,\n\n05:57.265 --> 06:12.660\n我現在只要提醒部長我們希望大家能夠檢探我告訴你這沒有問題但是預期的心理已經產生了所以你看對於這個房市的影響你們村裡已經對這個新清安的風暴已經可以請很多的大佬來喝咖啡了你這個碳費的部分\n\n06:14.642 --> 06:14.802\n主席\n\n06:31.212 --> 06:49.066\n但是很顯然的很多的亂象還是存在的,我想兩位在這邊應該看出來,包括碳的鏈財,告訴你現在有非常多的班開班授課告訴大家如何可以通過一套的方法讓這個企業可以少甚至不要,還有第二個,很多最重要的是認證的部分。\n\n06:49.366 --> 06:50.427\n三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n07:05.478 --> 07:06.359\n現在看到沒有?\n\n07:34.055 --> 07:51.675\n報告委員因為環境部也是去年才成立那麼我們現在經濟部我們上來以後我們在不斷的在討論那我們希望說明年能夠提出來就像您剛才所指正的經濟部標準局現在也不斷的在討論這樣的一個標準是啦對部長我這樣已經特別解體了\n\n07:54.498 --> 08:12.727\n我剛前提的環境部是去年才成立的可是這就告訴打臉我們過去我們過去8年是民進黨執政不是你們但是過去這些都是知道要做的到目前為止才輪到你們身上然後才告訴我去年成立而且還有很重要的我看不清楚像這個院長你知道我們探權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎上次有講過我現在我看在我你的家裡對啊你對\n\n08:21.052 --> 08:46.744\n你高雄啦,拜託,每天去高雄看一看好不好。但是呢,他安全教育所設在高雄,是在前鎮,但是你知道成立一年多了,院長成立一年多,這很重要喔。但是呢,成立一年多,現在馬上被詐騙集團動用總經理的照片跟資料,而且用AI身為的合成照片裡面,在社群裡面,來販賣廣發金融商品跟投資的訊息,你說對不對?\n\n08:48.124 --> 09:07.231\n委員長,探權交易才成立一年多,很符合現代的潮流,李國雄,我告訴你,行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團,你們的速度要比上詐騙集團,他比你更了解,一年多來,他就已經不斷用這個方法來去做這樣一個處理,所以這個東西是很嚴重的,院長你不覺得嗎?\n\n09:08.311 --> 09:25.265\n是,詐騙的問題我們一步一步來處理,柯委員報告我們是去年才曾通過這個氣候變遷的相關法令,現在環境部在9月份才公布了三個執法,所以他們一步一步的來處理,並不是說我們過去不作為,是現在到了我們必須\n\n09:26.706 --> 09:49.186\n我還是覺得效率是晚了一些連詐騙都知道要用我們的探權交易來做詐騙這個我們馬上處理而且很重要的我說我覺得經濟部長不能只是聲表遺憾我知道你很遺憾因為你站在這個產業的這一方嘛一定會知道會造成經濟的一些的影響嘛但是我覺得這還是要辦法而且最重要是碳費\n\n09:50.367 --> 09:51.988\n要怎麼分配?\n\n09:51.988 --> 10:09.576\n我說是知道的,真的要去高雄說幾句話,高雄現在是三高,碳排高、污染高、碳被攪的高,所以我們現在很擔心什麼?費用攪了這麼多,到時候總部都不在我們高雄住在台北,污染給我們吸,然後錢攪到台北,這樣可不可以?\n\n10:10.817 --> 10:31.000\n以後這個部分你要怎麼解決?這跟我們得利?報告委員,我們現在針對這個命題,這麼大的一個命題,我們提出一個可以改變的方法。也就是說我進來以後,我提出來一個境外觀內的這樣的一個概念。我們幫助台灣所謂用電、碳排高比較大的產業往外移走。\n\n10:32.060 --> 10:56.135\n對,這個是我們希望透過政府的力量,然後替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。對,因為美國也常說這個部分嘛,你把這個碳費收完之後,你為了要活絡地方的產業經濟,你有一套配套的做法嘛,這是我今天特別要提出來嘛,特別到高雄,你到底我們繳了這麼多費用,而且你看嘛,這個目前來說,你們也宣布要用三大綠色基金,院長我恭喜你,我看你的綠色基金,我怕了,你看,100億的綠色成長基金,\n\n10:58.817 --> 11:14.634\n一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、\n\n11:19.859 --> 11:37.389\n委員,我們跟你報告一下,您剛剛所指教的這三個領域,我們都可以再處理。我們會把高雄它原來產生碳高的地方、電高的地方,把它移到其他的地區,讓高雄在原來的地方可以高質化,做一些\n\n11:39.111 --> 11:41.353\n二零二二年竟然比二零二一年的碳排還要增加4.6%拜託\n\n12:08.971 --> 12:24.095\n股尼真的是已經做了這樣的處理了。碳排還是要增加。所以說我說實在的,這是不是有辦法透過徵收這個碳費來讓我們環境更加永續。這個數字會說謊。院長、部長,對吧?\n\n12:24.095 --> 12:31.898\n所以說以價質量、經濟效果,剛剛真的有把這個碳排的這個大戶就因此要怎麼處置。這也是個大的課題喔,對吧?\n\n12:33.818 --> 13:00.938\n所以這樣我們更需要來協助、輔導、要求他們能夠...你不要到時候到了2024比2023的碳排又更高能夠達到的自儲減量的這個產業他才能夠用優惠的碳排所以我就是告訴你數字嘛用了這些東西到時候你看碳排量還是很高像技術又怎麼樣發達最後的時間真的很有限啦我確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛因為郭部長當開始的時候6月你就說你不贊成波普但是你們的行政院發言人馬上幫你講說這1000億\n\n13:03.180 --> 13:04.901\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n13:29.514 --> 13:36.346\n如果說我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持,然後我們可以改善\n\n13:38.884 --> 13:58.191\n臺電的這個財務我相信我們現在因為這個材料材料原材料的這個價格看起來已經到了高點我們現在購電量是比較高但是我們的那個整個材料費是降低的你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭完之後是完全往下降我會要求臺電的這個管理\n\n13:59.231 --> 14:13.183\n能夠精進所以那個院長有要求我兩年以兩年內如果這個臺電不能夠正向得了這個補助然後兩年內你還要漲價那可能就是我告別的時候\n\n14:14.991 --> 14:15.632\n發言委員：柯志恩\n\n14:35.194 --> 14:37.237\n我們的補助對我們的民生物價的穩定有非常正向的成效。\n\n14:51.072 --> 15:12.557\n還有拿4500萬去做宣傳費用告訴大家臺電是多麼需要大家的補助我講實在的現在花了4500萬在做宣傳啊遠不如好好來處理一下到底整個管理的機制是怎麼樣好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來給關關我們的臺電最後一個問題每次賬戶不能超過3%好不好但是現在賬戶嘛不是11就是12.5%我覺得你那個3%都是頂多的\n\n15:16.118 --> 15:16.198\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.144,"end":8.427,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請卓院長?卓院長請備詢。各位好。院長好。聽說你明天要在高雄嗎?"},{"start":22.406,"end":30.451,"text":"今天中午大家比較關切就是要吃一個所謂的和解飯,你對這卷和解飯的信心到底有多少?你覺得可以解決我們目前預算卡關的問題嗎?"},{"start":49.121,"end":76.393,"text":"只要對國家未來有信心,我們任何一次的接觸,我們都要深具信心。大家本來都是這樣的期待的,而且我知道你要來當這個葛魁的時候,大家最期望就是你過去是調和鼎賴的功夫非常的好,可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬,我比較好奇的是你背後的這個賴總統,我說實在的,一般來說根據我們憲法44條規定,當院跟院當中有任何沒有辦法解決有爭執的時候,其實總統"},{"start":78.254,"end":78.294,"text":"主席"},{"start":90.509,"end":108.123,"text":"謝謝委員 總統跟我在憲法的質詢上的分工是非常清楚明確而且我們也是這樣在進行的那這一次跟韓院長之間是我們那一天我們兩人自己互相的約定我想如果不用動到憲法的層級我們可以在兩院之間來"},{"start":108.763,"end":124.205,"text":"我們也期待啦,而且院長你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大啦,彼此各退一步的話,我們就可以好好把這總預算送到委員會裡面好好來去做,所以我們對於今天的和解,其實不要只是大拜拜式的,每個人都派出來,然後氣氛氛圍非常的好,但是最具體,"},{"start":125.046,"end":125.687,"text":"謝謝委員,我也希望在"},{"start":143.43,"end":171.221,"text":"法律的原則性問題能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後,我們就能夠順利往後走。我們期待,我們期待,否則的話就是無解。好,我們來看看我們這個碳費。現在目前的碳費已經拍板了,大概就是每公噸300元,但是這個不管是經濟部、產業界或是環團,其實都是非常的不滿意的。而且我知道經濟部長是公開表示相當的遺憾。我們要經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿這個環境部還是對行政院表達深度的遺憾?"},{"start":172.752,"end":194.856,"text":"報告委員,我想這個碳費的部分,我們還是,因為企業是我們在照顧的,那環境部他有維護這個整體國家的這個立場。我完全同意,部長我知道,我完全知道產業上那個需求,所以我想問一下這個院長,你們之間到底有沒有溝通過,經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過,感覺起來好像是要在黨內互打的概念,而且我現在要先確定一下,"},{"start":195.416,"end":223.598,"text":"大家最關切的是你會把這個碳費轉嫁到我們這個所謂的消費者的身上造成所謂的綠色通膨其實這是大家比較關切的是的委員當然經過數次的溝通兩個部會跟其他相關部會跟我本人我們都參加過經濟部長深度遺憾如果今天我們訂出來一個標準經濟部完全叫好那我覺得環境部那邊就會造成很大的壓力所以你比較支持經濟部還是比較支持環境部"},{"start":224.719,"end":224.859,"text":"三百塊"},{"start":245.942,"end":260.911,"text":"一頓但是你如果有一些優惠自主排碳的話可以50也可以有100我們就這樣算這個range好的如果說是平均來說一頓大概是100塊人的話都幾乎要繳到7到8億升到百億的這樣子的碳費那你如何保證這是我們比較關切的"},{"start":261.992,"end":285.078,"text":"這些東西到底會不會轉嫁﹖包括中油﹖他其實也很想爭取把這個篡費的公式放到他們這樣的一個公式裡面﹖更不要說臺電也想比照這個水費的收費一樣有代收的方法﹖這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中﹖所以院長你可不可以保證到目前為止﹖永續不用再講了大家都同意世界的趨勢﹖會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔﹖"},{"start":286.294,"end":306.905,"text":"委員我們常常關心世界永續的問題,我們每個人多多少少付出一點的責任是要的。 一點點的責任到底有多少,其實我們還是要關切一下,你看目前為止商桌就做出一個大的一個非常嚴謹的一個報告,他說碳費會帶動中南部的房價,我跟你說你現在先擔保也買房,"},{"start":308.646,"end":329.061,"text":"太多人會告訴你這叫碳肺保底的概念,因為營建的成本未來會提高,最近你看不到,可是他告訴你3、5年之後,因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會起底,所以目前為止已經漲到不行了,除了台積電效應之外,碳肺保底的概念已經變成我們現在買房子裡面,大家來說服大家了。"},{"start":329.521,"end":355.323,"text":"我會明確注意這個事情,產業的發展跟所受的衝擊,部長來答覆。報告委員,我想這一部分經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化,我們大概都有一個小組,不斷地觀察指數的變異,然後我們會有一些方法,那碳稅的部分,我們跟環境部是在討論,這個是在未來,他現在目前提出這樣100塊,"},{"start":357.265,"end":372.66,"text":"我現在只要提醒部長我們希望大家能夠檢探我告訴你這沒有問題但是預期的心理已經產生了所以你看對於這個房市的影響你們村裡已經對這個新清安的風暴已經可以請很多的大佬來喝咖啡了你這個碳費的部分"},{"start":374.642,"end":374.802,"text":"主席"},{"start":391.212,"end":409.066,"text":"但是很顯然的很多的亂象還是存在的,我想兩位在這邊應該看出來,包括碳的鏈財,告訴你現在有非常多的班開班授課告訴大家如何可以通過一套的方法讓這個企業可以少甚至不要,還有第二個,很多最重要的是認證的部分。"},{"start":409.366,"end":410.427,"text":"三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":425.478,"end":426.359,"text":"現在看到沒有?"},{"start":454.055,"end":471.675,"text":"報告委員 因為環境部也是去年才成立 那麼我們現在經濟部我們上來以後我們在不斷的在討論 那我們希望說明年能夠提出來 就像您剛才所指正的經濟部標準局現在也不斷的在討論這樣的一個標準 是啦 對 部長我這樣已經特別解體了"},{"start":474.498,"end":492.727,"text":"我剛前提的環境部是去年才成立的可是這就告訴打臉我們過去我們過去8年是民進黨執政不是你們但是過去這些都是知道要做的到目前為止才輪到你們身上然後才告訴我去年成立而且還有很重要的我看不清楚像這個院長你知道我們探權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎上次有講過我現在我看在我你的家裡對啊你對"},{"start":501.052,"end":526.744,"text":"你高雄啦,拜託,每天去高雄看一看好不好。但是呢,他安全教育所設在高雄,是在前鎮,但是你知道成立一年多了,院長成立一年多,這很重要喔。但是呢,成立一年多,現在馬上被詐騙集團動用總經理的照片跟資料,而且用AI身為的合成照片裡面,在社群裡面,來販賣廣發金融商品跟投資的訊息,你說對不對?"},{"start":528.124,"end":547.231,"text":"委員長,探權交易才成立一年多,很符合現代的潮流,李國雄,我告訴你,行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團,你們的速度要比上詐騙集團,他比你更了解,一年多來,他就已經不斷用這個方法來去做這樣一個處理,所以這個東西是很嚴重的,院長你不覺得嗎?"},{"start":548.311,"end":565.265,"text":"是,詐騙的問題我們一步一步來處理,柯委員報告我們是去年才曾通過這個氣候變遷的相關法令,現在環境部在9月份才公布了三個執法,所以他們一步一步的來處理,並不是說我們過去不作為,是現在到了我們必須"},{"start":566.706,"end":589.186,"text":"我還是覺得效率是晚了一些 連詐騙都知道要用我們的探權交易來做詐騙 這個我們馬上處理而且很重要的 我說我覺得經濟部長不能只是聲表遺憾 我知道你很遺憾 因為你站在這個產業的這一方嘛 一定會知道會造成經濟的一些的影響嘛 但是我覺得這還是要辦法 而且最重要是碳費"},{"start":590.367,"end":591.988,"text":"要怎麼分配?"},{"start":591.988,"end":609.576,"text":"我說是知道的,真的要去高雄說幾句話,高雄現在是三高,碳排高、污染高、碳被攪的高,所以我們現在很擔心什麼?費用攪了這麼多,到時候總部都不在我們高雄住在台北,污染給我們吸,然後錢攪到台北,這樣可不可以?"},{"start":610.817,"end":631,"text":"以後這個部分你要怎麼解決?這跟我們得利?報告委員,我們現在針對這個命題,這麼大的一個命題,我們提出一個可以改變的方法。也就是說我進來以後,我提出來一個境外觀內的這樣的一個概念。我們幫助台灣所謂用電、碳排高比較大的產業往外移走。"},{"start":632.06,"end":656.135,"text":"對,這個是我們希望透過政府的力量,然後替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。對,因為美國也常說這個部分嘛,你把這個碳費收完之後,你為了要活絡地方的產業經濟,你有一套配套的做法嘛,這是我今天特別要提出來嘛,特別到高雄,你到底我們繳了這麼多費用,而且你看嘛,這個目前來說,你們也宣布要用三大綠色基金,院長我恭喜你,我看你的綠色基金,我怕了,你看,100億的綠色成長基金,"},{"start":658.817,"end":674.634,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":679.859,"end":697.389,"text":"委員,我們跟你報告一下,您剛剛所指教的這三個領域,我們都可以再處理。我們會把高雄它原來產生碳高的地方、電高的地方,把它移到其他的地區,讓高雄在原來的地方可以高質化,做一些"},{"start":699.111,"end":701.353,"text":"二零二二年竟然比二零二一年的碳排還要增加4.6%拜託"},{"start":728.971,"end":744.095,"text":"股尼真的是已經做了這樣的處理了。 碳排還是要增加。 所以說我說實在的,這是不是有辦法透過徵收這個碳費來讓我們環境更加永續。 這個數字會說謊。 院長、部長,對吧?"},{"start":744.095,"end":751.898,"text":"所以說以價質量、經濟效果,剛剛真的有把這個碳排的這個大戶就因此要怎麼處置。 這也是個大的課題喔,對吧?"},{"start":753.818,"end":780.938,"text":"所以這樣我們更需要來協助、輔導、要求他們能夠...你不要到時候到了2024比2023的碳排又更高能夠達到的自儲減量的這個產業他才能夠用優惠的碳排所以我就是告訴你數字嘛用了這些東西到時候你看碳排量還是很高像技術又怎麼樣發達最後的時間真的很有限啦我確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛因為郭部長當開始的時候6月你就說你不贊成波普但是你們的行政院發言人馬上幫你講說這1000億"},{"start":783.18,"end":784.901,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":809.514,"end":816.346,"text":"如果說我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持,然後我們可以改善"},{"start":818.884,"end":838.191,"text":"臺電的這個財務我相信我們現在因為這個材料材料原材料的這個價格看起來已經到了高點我們現在購電量是比較高但是我們的那個整個材料費是降低的你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭完之後是完全往下降我會要求臺電的這個管理"},{"start":839.231,"end":853.183,"text":"能夠精進所以那個院長有要求我兩年以兩年內如果這個臺電不能夠正向得了這個補助然後兩年內你還要漲價那可能就是我告別的時候"},{"start":854.991,"end":855.632,"text":"發言委員：柯志恩"},{"start":875.194,"end":877.237,"text":"我們的補助對我們的民生物價的穩定有非常正向的成效。"},{"start":891.072,"end":912.557,"text":"還有拿4500萬去做宣傳費用告訴大家臺電是多麼需要大家的補助我講實在的現在花了4500萬在做宣傳啊遠不如好好來處理一下到底整個管理的機制是怎麼樣好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來給關關我們的臺電最後一個問題每次賬戶不能超過3%好不好但是現在賬戶嘛不是11就是12.5%我覺得你那個3%都是頂多的"},{"start":916.118,"end":916.198,"text":"主席"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:41:27 - 10:56:58","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155382,"gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時41分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請卓院長？"],["主席：好，卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，聽說你明天要來高雄了？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["柯委員志恩：等很久了。"],["卓院長榮泰：很抱歉，因為上禮拜確實是時間……"],["柯委員志恩：等很久了，一個禮拜了，所以補助拿多一點過來啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我上禮拜也是在其他地方，我並沒有怠慢，請委員諒解。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我想說今天中午大家比較關切就是要吃一個所謂的和解飯，你對這次和解飯的信心到底有多少？你覺得可以解決我們目前預算卡關的問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要對國家未來有信心，任何一次的接觸，我們都要深具信心。"],["柯委員志恩：大家本來都是這樣期待的，而且我記得你要來當閣揆的時候，大家最期望就是你過去調和鼎鼐的功夫非常好，可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬。我比較好奇的是你背後的賴總統，說實在的，一般來說，根據憲法第四十四條的規定，當院跟院之間有任何沒有辦法解決、有爭執的時候，其實總統應該站出來做一個協調。所以我們只能說，到底對於這次和解飯，我們的總統有沒有為你開綠燈，還是他對這次的和解有沒有什麼樣的一個想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，總統跟我在憲法職權上的分工非常清楚、明確，而且我們也是這樣在進行的。這一次跟韓院長之間是那一天我們兩個人自己互相的約定，我想如果不用動到憲法的層級，我們可以在兩院之間來協調……"],["柯委員志恩：我們也期待啦！而且院長，你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大，彼此各退一步的話，我們就可以把總預算送到委員會裡面好好來審查，所以我們對於今天的和解其實不要只是大拜拜性的，每個人都派出來，然後氣氛、氛圍非常的好，但是最具體，特別是對於我們所謂的已經三讀通過，而且說實在的金額不太多的狀況之下，彼此能夠做出一個可以的溝通，我覺得這是設立一個非常好的典範，否則未來朝野真是永無寧日，這是我們大家對你很大的一個期許。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我也希望在法律的原則性問題，能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後，我們就能夠順利往下走。"],["柯委員志恩：我們期待，否則的話就是無解。","好，我們來看看碳費。現在碳費已經拍板了，大概就是每公噸300元，但是不管經濟部、產業界或是環團，其實都是非常不滿意的，而且我也知道經濟部長公開表示相當的遺憾，我不知道經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿環境部，還是對於行政院表達深度的遺憾？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想碳費的部分我們還是……因為企業是我們在照顧……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是啦！"],["郭部長智輝：環境部有維護整體國家的立場……"],["柯委員志恩：我完全同意，部長，我完全知道產業這樣的需求，所以我想問一下院長，你們之間到底有沒有溝通過，經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過？感覺起來好像是在黨內互打的概念，而且我現在先確定一下，大家最關心的是，你會不會把碳費轉嫁到我們消費者的身上，造成所謂的綠色通膨？其實這是大家比較關切的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，委員，當然經過數次的溝通，兩個部會跟其他相關部會還有我本人，我們都參加過相當……"],["柯委員志恩：那你的經濟部長說深度遺憾，是在講什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，如果今天我們訂出來一個標準，經濟部完全叫好，我覺得環境部那邊就遭受很大的壓力。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你比較支持經濟部，還是比較支持環境部？"],["卓院長榮泰：事實上，就目前對產業衝擊面能夠縮小，但是我們對於碳費的制度是我們對環境的付出，我們要將它平衡。"],["柯委員志恩：環境的永續很重要，但是有幾個數字還是要讓院長知道一下。你看，我們目前來說像台電、中鋼、中油都是屬於碳排超過2.5萬噸的碳排大戶。你看嘛，300塊1噸，但是如果有一些優惠，自主排碳的話可以50也可以100，我們就算這個range好了，如果說是以平均來說，1噸大概是100塊的話，都幾乎要繳到7到8億，甚至百億這樣子的碳費喔！你如何保證，這是我們比較關切的，這些東西到底會不會轉嫁？包括中油其實也很想爭取把碳費放到他們油價公式的因子裡面，更不要說台電也想比照水費的收費一樣用代收的方法，這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中。所以院長，你可不可以保證，到目前為止永續不用再講了，大家都同意是世界的趨勢，會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們常常關心世界永續的問題，我們每個人多多少少……"],["柯委員志恩：會不會有全民要負擔的？"],["卓院長榮泰：付出一點點的責任是要的。"],["柯委員志恩：一點點的責任到底有多少？其實我們還是要來關切一下。你看目前為止，商周就做出一個很大的、非常嚴謹的報告，它說碳費會帶動中南部的房價。我跟你說，你現在去南部買房子，太多人會告訴你這叫「碳費保底」的概念，他跟你說因為營建的成本未來會提高，最近你看不到，可是他告訴你在3、5年之後，因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會漲價，所以目前為止已經漲到不行了。除了台積電效應之外，「碳費保底」的概念已經變成我們現在買房子時被拿來說服大家的說法，所以你有辦法……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們密切注意這個事情，產業的發展跟它所受的衝擊，部長來答復。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分，經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化，我們都有一個小組，不斷地觀察所謂指數的變異，然後我們會有一些方法。至於碳費的部分，我們跟環境部在討論，這個是在未來，它目前提出100塊，但是我想這個主要是為了因應歐洲……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在只要提醒部長，這已經……"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望大家能夠減碳。"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴你，這沒有問題，但是預期的心理已經產生了，所以你看對於房市的影響，你們除了對新青安的風暴已經請很多大老來喝咖啡，關於碳費的部分，恐怕你要啟動另外一波，否則這個因應的作為，我告訴你，現在已經造成非常大的影響。","還有，我還要特別提出來，這個徵收到底有沒有一個配套？雖然你們都是520才上任，但是民進黨已經執政了過去8年，你們也認為環境永續都是過去一貫的目標，但是很顯然很多的亂象還是存在的。我想兩位站在這邊應該看得出來，包括碳的「斂財」，告訴你，現在有非常多開班授課，告訴大家如何可以透過一套方法，讓企業可以少，甚至不要。第二個，最重要的是認證的部分，很多下游廠商很怕自己買到的低碳產品到底有沒有符合這個規定？有沒有第三方認證？到底會不會買錯？這個部分也看不到任何方法。還有一個很重要的「碳洩漏」，這名詞我覺得有點不太好，我覺得應該改名叫做「碳破口」，就是很多人從國外進口不需要收碳費，但是我們臺灣需要，這就是經濟部長你過去可能已經預估到的，會讓很多甚至水泥業等等之類的造成非常大衝擊。很多國內的傳統產業，因為要被徵收這麼多的碳費，會造成一些產業的出走，所以這些部分裡面，大家就問你到底要不要推動臺版的CBAM，就像歐洲的邊境調整機制，目前沒有看到，這都是我們所謂的配套措施，現在看不到，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為環境部也是去年才成立，而現在經濟部，我們上來以後不斷地在討論，我們希望說明年能夠提出來，就像你剛才所指正的，經濟部標準局現在也不斷地在討論這樣的一個標準跟規範……"],["柯委員志恩：是啦，部長，我剛剛已經有特別前提了……"],["郭部長智輝：然後來服務我們國人。"],["柯委員志恩：環境部是去年才成立的，可是這就打臉過去，過去8年是民進黨執政，雖然不是你們，但是過去這些都是知道要做的，到目前為止輪到你們身上，然後告訴我去年才成立！而且還有很重要的，我可不可以請問一下院長，你知道我們碳權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：上次有講過，我現在……"],["柯委員志恩：看到我你就知道設在哪裡了。在哪裡？在高雄啦！拜託一下，可以去看一下好嗎？","碳權交易所設在高雄前鎮，但是你知道它成立一年多了，院長，它成立一年多了，這很重要喔！成立一年多，現在卻被詐騙集團盜用總經理的照片跟資料，而且用AI深偽的合成照片在社群裡面販賣、廣發金融商品跟投資訊息，你說這樣對嗎？院長，碳權交易所才成立一年多，很符合現在的潮流，它在高雄，我講實在的，行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團，你們的速度要比上詐騙集團啦！他們比你們更瞭解，一年多以來，他們就已經不斷在用這個方法去做這樣的處理。這個東西是很嚴重的耶！院長，你不覺得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，詐騙的問題，我們會進一步處理。跟委員報告，我們去年才通過氣候變遷的相關法令，環境部在9月份才公布了3個子法，所以他們會一步一步的來處理，並不是說我們過去不作為，而是到了我們必須面對現在這個環境來作為的時候。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是覺得效率是晚了一些啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們已經在補上了，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：連詐騙都知道要用我們的碳權交易來做詐騙，行政院……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們馬上處理。"],["柯委員志恩：對啊，這個東西還是需要處理，而且很重要的，我覺得經濟部長不能只是深表遺憾，我知道你很遺憾，因為你站在產業的這一方嘛，一定知道會造成經濟的一些影響，但我覺得這還是要想辦法，最重要的是碳費要怎麼分配？我講實在的，真的要替高雄講一下話，高雄現在是「三高」耶──碳排高、污染高、碳費繳得高。我們現在很擔心什麼？費用繳了這麼多，到時候總部都不在高雄而在臺北，污染給我們吸，然後錢繳到臺北，這樣有道理嗎？這個部分你要怎麼解決，這有道理嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在針對這個這麼大的命題提出一個可以改變的方法，也就是在我進來以後，我提出一個「境外關內」的概念，幫助臺灣用電、碳排比較高的產業往外移走……"],["柯委員志恩：對，這非常的重要。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望透過政府的力量替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。"],["柯委員志恩：對，因為美國也嘗試過這個部分，把碳費收完之後，為了要活絡地方的產業經濟，要有一套配套的作法嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對，有。"],["柯委員志恩：我今天特別要提出來，特別是在高雄，我們繳了這麼多費用……而且你看嘛，目前你們宣布要用三大綠色基金，院長，說實在的，我看到綠色基金會怕耶！你看，100億的綠色成長基金，碳費已經收掉非常多了，那這個綠色成長基金到底要怎麼用？到底要怎麼分配？你們到底可不可以增加我們高雄的補助？","我剛剛說的「三高」，我再說一次，空污高、碳排高、我們碳費繳得也高，如果這樣沒有補助我們更多，對這個地方來說，真的是非常非常的嚴重啊！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，跟你報告一下，您剛才所指教的這三個領域，我們都可以再處理，我們會把高雄原來產生碳高、電高的地方移到其他地區，讓高雄在原來的地方可以高值化，做一些比較高值的……"],["柯委員志恩：對啦，所以拿到這些錢之後就要用在我們真的已經是犧牲掉很多的區域，這是一個基本原則。","但我也要特別問一下，收了這個碳費就有辦法解決空污嗎？大家看一下，2021年到2022年臺灣的十大污染源有三個就在我們高雄，你還要說……像興達電廠，說實在的，2022年的碳排竟然比2021年增加4.6%，拜託一下，去年真的已經做了這樣的處理了，碳排還是增加？我說實在的，是不是有辦法透過徵收碳費來讓我們環境更加永續？數字會說話，院長、部長對不對？以價制量的經濟效果真的有因此把碳排大戶……這要怎麼處置？這也是一個大的課題，對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們更需要來協助輔導，要求他們能夠……"],["柯委員志恩：不要到了2024年比2023年的碳排更高！"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠達到自主減量的產業才能夠用優惠的碳費。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我就是告訴你數字嘛，用了這些東西，到時候碳排量還是很高，而且現在技術又這麼發達。","最後的時間真的很有限，確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛，因為郭部長在剛上任的時候，6月你就說你不贊成撥補，但是行政院的發言人馬上幫你講：這1,000億不是跟這個有關。好，很快就解決這個問題，但是今年我們看到的預算當中，還是要再編1,000億啊！我只能說，漲幅12.5%，台電營收有740億，那為什麼還要再補1,000億？這是大家非常關切的。重點是補了1,000億之後，真的可以保證我們的電價撐到什麼時候？可以讓我們的民生用電，大家都有一個安心的標準嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持，然後我們可以改善台電的財務，因為現在原材料的價格看起來已經到了高點……"],["柯委員志恩：我們現在購電量是比較高，但是我們整個材料費是降低的，你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭之後是完全往下降的。"],["郭部長智輝：然後我會要求台電的管理能夠精進。院長有要求我，兩年內如果台電不能夠有正向的發展，也就是得到這個補助，然後兩年內還要漲價，可能就是我告別的時候了。"],["柯委員志恩：你一直告訴我說兩年之內，我給你這麼多的錢，台電還沒有所作為，還是不斷的，要嘛就是給我漲電價，要嘛就是補助，就是你郭部長下臺的時候，你就要為台電下臺，因為你要為你的政策負責任就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們是說我們會共同努力，讓兩年後台電的財務能夠健全，在健全的過程當中，總有一段的調整期，現在我們儘量來調整，內外部都要調整。"],["柯委員志恩：其實歷屆部長都想要讓台電健全。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你的補助對我們民生物價的穩定有非常正向的效果。"],["柯委員志恩：我們當然知道，但是你知道台電不是只有這樣，它還要拿4,500萬去做宣傳費用，告訴大家台電是多麼需要大家的補助。說實在的，花了4,500萬來做宣傳還遠不如好好處理一下整個管理的機制，好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來管管我們的台電啦！","最後一個問題，每次漲幅不能超過3%，但是現在漲幅不是11%就是12.5%，我覺得你那個3%都是訂假的，有沒有？你們每次都說隨著物價的波動會做調整，那你就不要訂3%，每次都說原則是3%，結果沒有一個地方是符合3%的。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這是局部的調整。"],["柯委員志恩：你們都是只看後面沒有看前面，謝謝兩位。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員，謝謝卓院長。下一位請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}}