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00:01:16,283\n所謂毛小孩的這些事主他們擔心毛小孩在家裡沒有人照顧他就會用一個所謂的監視器然後來看這些毛小孩在家裡的狀況那通常這樣的APP呢他都會設定好的所以他的密碼為了怕雇主忘記他會有個預設的密碼那麼就會是可能1234啊000啊這個就是方便雇主那如果雇主重新使用或是忘記他就可以直接來使用但是這個是一般的家庭裡面但是我們如果\n\n4\n00:01:16,783 --> 00:01:17,883\n我會開這個頭的原因就是因為呢\n\n5\n00:01:46,276 --> 00:02:09,033\n這個院長來看一下螢幕上面這個是在今年的9月5號的時候媒體臥草他通過社群平台所公布的這個照片當時我第一時間發現之後我就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們的營區外面而且這個影像竟然是你上網你就可以看得到了\n\n6\n00:02:10,097 --> 00:02:35,440\n那當時我詢問了國防部之後,國防部告訴我說,哎,委員你誤會了,這其實不是國防部的,其實是在我們的農業部底下的相關監察這個農水路測試的這個鏡頭,可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了,轉向原因不明,但是經過了我們的了解之後,國防部第一時間的回覆是說,他們找到這個營區,而且馬上就把它遮蔽,那麼就避免\n\n7\n00:02:35,981 --> 00:02:37,502\n本席在請農業部相關的單位做了解的時候,\n\n8\n00:03:04,878 --> 00:03:16,119\n整本的完整的報告居然是10月7號才給我但是到底為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得而且可以被媒體直接就擷取\n\n9\n00:03:17,489 --> 00:03:43,534\n這到底有沒有解決而且全國還有多少這種處在一個關鍵的重要的軍事要塞那麼原本他可能是在照農田照一般的我們的民眾或是農民所需要的相關的回覆但是他卻照到了軍營照到了重要的基礎的關鍵的我們的重要的國防要塞部長怎麼來看這個問題院長怎麼來看這個問題\n\n10\n00:03:46,431 --> 00:04:10,421\n首先報告謝謝委員這麼重要的一個提醒這是絕對的疏忽我覺得這個應該立即要馬上杜絕所有現在這種現象第二以後要通令所有跟這個攝影攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門要全面的禁止要用這個例子當全面的禁止再來就針對這一件如果是農業部這個水產署是不是水利署\n\n11\n00:04:12,202 --> 00:04:22,321\n那我覺得部長要去了解,如果在行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話,行政的追究我覺得應該必須,而且要把它廣泛讓全國各部會通通要了解。\n\n12\n00:04:22,813 --> 00:04:47,205\n因為我會提這個問題就表示說他是媒體先發現然後我又在媒體上發現那顯然是負責要去監視或者是管理這個器材或是影像的人他完全沒有注意到就像我剛剛開頭所提到的這個設備他可能是透過一個網路一個APP或一個系統來做操作那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了\n\n13\n00:04:47,605 --> 00:05:09,580\n又或者是密碼設置的太簡單,因為很容易我們的原始密碼就是8088812345678,那麼這個會不會是整體的包括現在農業部底下,農田署、農水署所有的這樣的鏡頭都也有面臨系統密碼設置不安全,或者是太容易被破解的狀況。\n\n14\n00:05:12,144 --> 00:05:32,362\n我跟委員報告就是當事件發生的時候我們做了兩件事情第一件事情我要求他們清查所有的原來在監控水路的峻路的這些攝影機如果他的周遭有一些敏感的這些區域的話那個攝影機應該立即拆除因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門他們去做內部使用的一個控管\n\n15\n00:05:32,842 --> 00:06:01,881\n那第二個部分就是他們整個攝影機本身的後台他是一個內部的網路就是供內部這些漲水工來使用的那後續我也會他們叫他們來根據我們的那個自動安全的一個管理面跟人員的訓練做一個加強我們希望說就算內部的漲水工在使用的時候包括你的帳號密碼或相關的跟資訊安全有關的話一定要確實落實定期的去更換密碼\n\n16\n00:06:03,022 --> 00:06:12,549\n不要用最簡單的一個密碼很容易讓人家去使用這個部分我想我們會立刻的已經在要求了然後他們有提一些相關的報告我們再做進一步的處理\n\n17\n00:06:13,386 --> 00:06:41,811\n我要提醒的就是即使他照的是農田是有關於灌溉的整體的狀況來做一些防災或是防旱這樣的一個監視但是同樣的我認為這整體的精力一共發了15天而且相關的部會並沒有積極想要處理是因為本席不斷的透過辦公室追蹤然後才追到這樣的一個結果所以我還是希望雖然說農業部面對國安問題可能不是第一線但是\n\n18\n00:06:42,771 --> 00:07:05,352\n面對這樣的事情是不可以有任何的怠慢,也應該要積極的來面對跟處理好嗎?會,我們一定會這樣做。好,另外一個跟國安議題相關的就是有關於電動,中國的電動車是不是會是木馬屠城的威脅喔?那麼對於台灣來講我們到底有沒有危機意識?我想本席找了這些報導,不論是美國、澳洲或者是英國,\n\n19\n00:07:05,973 --> 00:07:05,993\n三、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n\n20\n00:07:26,443 --> 00:07:52,171\n的網絡去做第三地甚至於境外的一個操控所以這也是為什麼其實現在許多的國家都認為中國的電動車充滿了木馬屠城的危害但是本席發現的就是其實不只是中國的電動汽車或是自用的汽車現在是不是中國製的公車其實也在全台的北中南到處趴趴走那我們知道其實\n\n21\n00:07:53,564 --> 00:08:18,804\n大眾捷運系統的部分公車也算是一個關鍵技術所以我要先問一下院長或是部長就是當中國的電動車現在遍佈全台那我們該如何來處理因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定的中國車產的定義就是中國大陸的品牌嘛然後陸資跟國際品牌合資或者是中國的資金跟國際品牌來做合資\n\n22\n00:08:19,545 --> 00:08:19,605\n﹚林楚茵\n\n23\n00:08:34,565 --> 00:08:34,585\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n\n24\n00:08:49,642 --> 00:09:07,438\n大眾的關鍵的運輸系統也是關鍵基礎設施的時候那這兩者之間我們到底如何守住國安然後在國內又能夠達到淨零碳排電動車的好處那這兩者之間如何取捨院長\n\n25\n00:09:08,758 --> 00:09:35,973\n報告委員我想經濟部在今年7月已經有提出來提升國產化汽車的自治率這樣的一個規範那麼要求國產汽車的自治率門檻要逐年提高那這個比例是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算防止他國的低價產品來傾銷台灣那麼這也是各國的這個政策的趨勢這是第一個第二個呢您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題\n\n26\n00:09:37,213 --> 00:09:57,946\n對那麼這個怕這個車聯網那我們現在目前對汽車的這個電腦跟軟體啊雖然沒有進行這個管制但是我們有透過在地化比率的來要求那麼在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件將如何管制資訊安全的整這個規範來控制它\n\n27\n00:09:59,867 --> 00:10:21,099\n所以目前有從中國進來的中華汽車、山陽汽車、福特汽車他們都表示他們的軟體並不會主動聯網而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作所以目前委員所擔心資安這個問題應該是不存在的\n\n28\n00:10:21,809 --> 00:10:23,270\n這個我們這個會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬\n\n29\n00:10:51,710 --> 00:11:20,737\n然後跟這個委員做一個詳細的報告好,因為這個事情它已經存在了我知道已經在各個地方政府上路的公車那麼到底有沒有資安一律也許必須要去重視它你第一時間你說要完全的才剛上路又要它不能走也不太可能但是就像我們講到的這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網有沒有可能成為境外可以操控的所謂木馬塗層器的不定時炸彈因為我們知道\n\n30\n00:11:21,397 --> 00:11:24,019\n是,我們馬上回去以後,馬上來這個盤查一下,然後把這個結論來跟委員做報告。\n\n31\n00:11:47,555 --> 00:12:10,747\n那麼另外當然就是我們提到的,如果歐美各國對於中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候,那麼接下來後續呢?我們不能說自用車不能中國電動車,中國產的中國車,中國品牌不能進來,但是中國製的公車的電動車在我們全國的境內跑,這會不會是開了另外一扇小門?\n\n32\n00:12:16,132 --> 00:12:29,767\n三點跟委員報告第一個燃油車我們要求自治率是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件的產業希望不要受到衝擊那麼在電動車的方面我們是要求的更多是因為他的資安穩定\n\n33\n00:12:31,826 --> 00:12:45,654\n甚至他的低價傾銷那這個是現在國際的潮流也針對這個事情來處理的那電動車有兩個已經進來的部分剛剛部長講的我們會加強從內部的管理他的這個物聯網能不能就有效的評斷這個要處理\n\n34\n00:12:47,555 --> 00:13:02,220\n再來新要進來的我們會對於電池的要求特別特別的嚴厲因為在世界上闡說太多電池發生燃爆等等不應該的有個安全狀況我們會在這裡做處理這樣處理的話對未來的我們會加嚴來管制已經進來的就部長剛剛說的我們從內部會加嚴來管控\n\n35\n00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:28,527\n好謝謝這個院長這麼清晰的一個方向跟說明喔這個對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾藝術系統也放進去這個對於全民的安全是非常重要的最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的也是跟電動車相關那就是當我們有要求就像部長所說的像院長所提的我們有國產車的自治率之後那麼關於車用電腦或者是軟體我們要怎麼樣做規範喔因為\n\n36\n00:13:32,088 --> 00:13:39,133\n在這個零組件的部分其實中國還是我們最大的零組件的進口高達了百分之三十三\n\n37\n00:13:41,209 --> 00:14:04,881\n金額更是到7月累積了235.9億元喔那麼很多時候是車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製必須要有零組件的進口可是如果當整個中國成為我們重要的汽車零組件進口的大方向或者是說相關的重要的關鍵技術的時候我們該怎麼辦\n\n38\n00:14:05,701 --> 00:14:31,154\n面對這樣一個狀況,院長這邊跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法是可以降低對於中國林組件的依賴?我們現在是有,對這些林組件我們要求他漸漸的提高擴廠化的標準。那國內的廠商因為這個量的問題,所以他們對開這個模具會有一些抗拒。\n\n39\n00:14:31,914 --> 00:14:47,899\n不過我們現在正式的告訴他們這個就是一個政策希望這個業者能夠同意那最近的溝通的這個結果他們也願意所以這個我想在未來我們這個會從中國進來的這個林組建會越來越少甚至一次臨\n\n40\n00:14:48,992 --> 00:15:06,258\n尤其是像電腦或者是聯網相關的系統啊藍牙喇叭等等這個都要非常注意這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係我們不容許太多資安問題進來那我們也有一些零件去到中國大陸雙邊一定要在平等的架構底下來互通連交流\n\n41\n00:15:06,786 --> 00:15:06,806\n好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15377\t17598\t謝謝主席主席有請卓院長林委員好\n29212\t42244\t院長好,很開心可以在這邊首次來質詢您。我要問的這個問題之前,我想問一個比較輕鬆的。您在家裡有養寵物嗎?以前有。以前有養過。你知道現在的科技已經進步到有一些飼養這些\n46860\t76283\t所謂毛小孩的這些事主他們擔心毛小孩在家裡沒有人照顧他就會用一個所謂的監視器然後來看這些毛小孩在家裡的狀況那通常這樣的APP呢他都會設定好的所以他的密碼為了怕雇主忘記他會有個預設的密碼那麼就會是可能1234啊000啊這個就是方便雇主那如果雇主重新使用或是忘記他就可以直接來使用但是這個是一般的家庭裡面但是我們如果\n76783\t77883\t我會開這個頭的原因就是因為呢\n106276\t129033\t這個院長來看一下螢幕上面這個是在今年的9月5號的時候媒體臥草他通過社群平台所公布的這個照片當時我第一時間發現之後我就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們的營區外面而且這個影像竟然是你上網你就可以看得到了\n130097\t155440\t那當時我詢問了國防部之後,國防部告訴我說,哎,委員你誤會了,這其實不是國防部的,其實是在我們的農業部底下的相關監察這個農水路測試的這個鏡頭,可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了,轉向原因不明,但是經過了我們的了解之後,國防部第一時間的回覆是說,他們找到這個營區,而且馬上就把它遮蔽,那麼就避免\n155981\t157502\t本席在請農業部相關的單位做了解的時候,\n184878\t196119\t整本的完整的報告居然是10月7號才給我但是到底為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得而且可以被媒體直接就擷取\n197489\t223534\t這到底有沒有解決而且全國還有多少這種處在一個關鍵的重要的軍事要塞那麼原本他可能是在照農田照一般的我們的民眾或是農民所需要的相關的回覆但是他卻照到了軍營照到了重要的基礎的關鍵的我們的重要的國防要塞部長怎麼來看這個問題院長怎麼來看這個問題\n226431\t250421\t首先報告謝謝委員這麼重要的一個提醒這是絕對的疏忽我覺得這個應該立即要馬上杜絕所有現在這種現象第二以後要通令所有跟這個攝影攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門要全面的禁止要用這個例子當全面的禁止再來就針對這一件如果是農業部這個水產署是不是水利署\n252202\t262321\t那我覺得部長要去了解,如果在行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話,行政的追究我覺得應該必須,而且要把它廣泛讓全國各部會通通要了解。\n262813\t287205\t因為我會提這個問題就表示說他是媒體先發現然後我又在媒體上發現那顯然是負責要去監視或者是管理這個器材或是影像的人他完全沒有注意到就像我剛剛開頭所提到的這個設備他可能是透過一個網路一個APP或一個系統來做操作那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了\n287605\t309580\t又或者是密碼設置的太簡單,因為很容易我們的原始密碼就是8088812345678,那麼這個會不會是整體的包括現在農業部底下,農田署、農水署所有的這樣的鏡頭都也有面臨系統密碼設置不安全,或者是太容易被破解的狀況。\n312144\t332362\t我跟委員報告就是當事件發生的時候我們做了兩件事情第一件事情我要求他們清查所有的原來在監控水路的峻路的這些攝影機如果他的周遭有一些敏感的這些區域的話那個攝影機應該立即拆除因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門他們去做內部使用的一個控管\n332842\t361881\t那第二個部分就是他們整個攝影機本身的後台他是一個內部的網路就是供內部這些漲水工來使用的那後續我也會他們叫他們來根據我們的那個自動安全的一個管理面跟人員的訓練做一個加強我們希望說就算內部的漲水工在使用的時候包括你的帳號密碼或相關的跟資訊安全有關的話一定要確實落實定期的去更換密碼\n363022\t372549\t不要用最簡單的一個密碼很容易讓人家去使用這個部分我想我們會立刻的已經在要求了然後他們有提一些相關的報告我們再做進一步的處理\n373386\t401811\t我要提醒的就是即使他照的是農田是有關於灌溉的整體的狀況來做一些防災或是防旱這樣的一個監視但是同樣的我認為這整體的精力一共發了15天而且相關的部會並沒有積極想要處理是因為本席不斷的透過辦公室追蹤然後才追到這樣的一個結果所以我還是希望雖然說農業部面對國安問題可能不是第一線但是\n402771\t425352\t面對這樣的事情是不可以有任何的怠慢,也應該要積極的來面對跟處理好嗎?會,我們一定會這樣做。好,另外一個跟國安議題相關的就是有關於電動,中國的電動車是不是會是木馬屠城的威脅喔?那麼對於台灣來講我們到底有沒有危機意識?我想本席找了這些報導,不論是美國、澳洲或者是英國,\n425973\t425993\t三、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n446443\t472171\t的網絡去做第三地甚至於境外的一個操控所以這也是為什麼其實現在許多的國家都認為中國的電動車充滿了木馬屠城的危害但是本席發現的就是其實不只是中國的電動汽車或是自用的汽車現在是不是中國製的公車其實也在全台的北中南到處趴趴走那我們知道其實\n473564\t498804\t大眾捷運系統的部分公車也算是一個關鍵技術所以我要先問一下院長或是部長就是當中國的電動車現在遍佈全台那我們該如何來處理因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定的中國車產的定義就是中國大陸的品牌嘛然後陸資跟國際品牌合資或者是中國的資金跟國際品牌來做合資\n499545\t499605\t﹚林楚茵\n514565\t514585\t二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n529642\t547438\t大眾的關鍵的運輸系統也是關鍵基礎設施的時候那這兩者之間我們到底如何守住國安然後在國內又能夠達到淨零碳排電動車的好處那這兩者之間如何取捨 院長\n548758\t575973\t報告委員我想經濟部在今年7月已經有提出來提升國產化汽車的自治率這樣的一個規範那麼要求國產汽車的自治率門檻要逐年提高那這個比例是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算防止他國的低價產品來傾銷台灣那麼這也是各國的這個政策的趨勢這是第一個第二個呢您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題\n577213\t597946\t對那麼這個怕這個車聯網那我們現在目前對汽車的這個電腦跟軟體啊雖然沒有進行這個管制但是我們有透過在地化比率的來要求那麼在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件將如何管制資訊安全的整這個規範來控制它\n599867\t621099\t所以目前有從中國進來的中華汽車、山陽汽車、福特汽車他們都表示他們的軟體並不會主動聯網而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作所以目前委員所擔心資安這個問題應該是不存在的\n621809\t623270\t這個我們這個會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬\n651710\t680737\t然後跟這個委員做一個詳細的報告好,因為這個事情它已經存在了我知道已經在各個地方政府上路的公車那麼到底有沒有資安一律也許必須要去重視它你第一時間你說要完全的才剛上路又要它不能走也不太可能但是就像我們講到的這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網有沒有可能成為境外可以操控的所謂木馬塗層器的不定時炸彈因為我們知道\n681397\t684019\t是,我們馬上回去以後,馬上來這個盤查一下,然後把這個結論來跟委員做報告。\n707555\t730747\t那麼另外當然就是我們提到的,如果歐美各國對於中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候,那麼接下來後續呢?我們不能說自用車不能中國電動車,中國產的中國車,中國品牌不能進來,但是中國製的公車的電動車在我們全國的境內跑,這會不會是開了另外一扇小門?\n736132\t749767\t三點跟委員報告第一個燃油車我們要求自治率是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件的產業希望不要受到衝擊那麼在電動車的方面我們是要求的更多是因為他的資安穩定\n751826\t765654\t甚至他的低價傾銷那這個是現在國際的潮流也針對這個事情來處理的那電動車有兩個已經進來的部分剛剛部長講的我們會加強從內部的管理他的這個物聯網能不能就有效的評斷這個要處理\n767555\t782220\t再來新要進來的我們會對於電池的要求特別特別的嚴厲因為在世界上闡說太多電池發生燃爆等等不應該的有個安全狀況我們會在這裡做處理這樣處理的話對未來的我們會加嚴來管制已經進來的就部長剛剛說的我們從內部會加嚴來管控\n786820\t808527\t好謝謝這個院長這麼清晰的一個方向跟說明喔這個對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾藝術系統也放進去這個對於全民的安全是非常重要的最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的也是跟電動車相關那就是當我們有要求就像部長所說的像院長所提的我們有國產車的自治率之後那麼關於車用電腦或者是軟體我們要怎麼樣做規範喔因為\n812088\t819133\t在這個零組件的部分其實中國還是我們最大的零組件的進口高達了百分之三十三\n821209\t844881\t金額更是到7月累積了235.9億元喔 那麼很多時候是車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製必須要有零組件的進口可是如果當整個中國成為我們重要的汽車零組件進口的大方向或者是說相關的重要的關鍵技術的時候我們該怎麼辦\n845701\t871154\t面對這樣一個狀況,院長這邊跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法是可以降低對於中國林組件的依賴?我們現在是有,對這些林組件我們要求他漸漸的提高擴廠化的標準。那國內的廠商因為這個量的問題,所以他們對開這個模具會有一些抗拒。\n871914\t887899\t不過我們現在正式的告訴他們這個就是一個政策希望這個業者能夠同意那最近的溝通的這個結果他們也願意所以這個我想在未來我們這個會從中國進來的這個林組建會越來越少甚至一次臨\n888992\t906258\t尤其是像電腦或者是聯網相關的系統啊藍牙喇叭等等這個都要非常注意這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係我們不容許太多資安問題進來那我們也有一些零件去到中國大陸雙邊一定要在平等的架構底下來互通連交流\n906786\t906806\t好,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席主席有請卓院長林委員好\n院長好,很開心可以在這邊首次來質詢您。我要問的這個問題之前,我想問一個比較輕鬆的。您在家裡有養寵物嗎?以前有。以前有養過。你知道現在的科技已經進步到有一些飼養這些\n所謂毛小孩的這些事主他們擔心毛小孩在家裡沒有人照顧他就會用一個所謂的監視器然後來看這些毛小孩在家裡的狀況那通常這樣的APP呢他都會設定好的所以他的密碼為了怕雇主忘記他會有個預設的密碼那麼就會是可能1234啊000啊這個就是方便雇主那如果雇主重新使用或是忘記他就可以直接來使用但是這個是一般的家庭裡面但是我們如果\n我會開這個頭的原因就是因為呢\n這個院長來看一下螢幕上面這個是在今年的9月5號的時候媒體臥草他通過社群平台所公布的這個照片當時我第一時間發現之後我就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們的營區外面而且這個影像竟然是你上網你就可以看得到了\n那當時我詢問了國防部之後,國防部告訴我說,哎,委員你誤會了,這其實不是國防部的,其實是在我們的農業部底下的相關監察這個農水路測試的這個鏡頭,可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了,轉向原因不明,但是經過了我們的了解之後,國防部第一時間的回覆是說,他們找到這個營區,而且馬上就把它遮蔽,那麼就避免\n本席在請農業部相關的單位做了解的時候,\n整本的完整的報告居然是10月7號才給我但是到底為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得而且可以被媒體直接就擷取\n這到底有沒有解決而且全國還有多少這種處在一個關鍵的重要的軍事要塞那麼原本他可能是在照農田照一般的我們的民眾或是農民所需要的相關的回覆但是他卻照到了軍營照到了重要的基礎的關鍵的我們的重要的國防要塞部長怎麼來看這個問題院長怎麼來看這個問題\n首先報告謝謝委員這麼重要的一個提醒這是絕對的疏忽我覺得這個應該立即要馬上杜絕所有現在這種現象第二以後要通令所有跟這個攝影攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門要全面的禁止要用這個例子當全面的禁止再來就針對這一件如果是農業部這個水產署是不是水利署\n那我覺得部長要去了解,如果在行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話,行政的追究我覺得應該必須,而且要把它廣泛讓全國各部會通通要了解。\n因為我會提這個問題就表示說他是媒體先發現然後我又在媒體上發現那顯然是負責要去監視或者是管理這個器材或是影像的人他完全沒有注意到就像我剛剛開頭所提到的這個設備他可能是透過一個網路一個APP或一個系統來做操作那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了\n又或者是密碼設置的太簡單,因為很容易我們的原始密碼就是8088812345678,那麼這個會不會是整體的包括現在農業部底下,農田署、農水署所有的這樣的鏡頭都也有面臨系統密碼設置不安全,或者是太容易被破解的狀況。\n我跟委員報告就是當事件發生的時候我們做了兩件事情第一件事情我要求他們清查所有的原來在監控水路的峻路的這些攝影機如果他的周遭有一些敏感的這些區域的話那個攝影機應該立即拆除因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門他們去做內部使用的一個控管\n那第二個部分就是他們整個攝影機本身的後台他是一個內部的網路就是供內部這些漲水工來使用的那後續我也會他們叫他們來根據我們的那個自動安全的一個管理面跟人員的訓練做一個加強我們希望說就算內部的漲水工在使用的時候包括你的帳號密碼或相關的跟資訊安全有關的話一定要確實落實定期的去更換密碼\n不要用最簡單的一個密碼很容易讓人家去使用這個部分我想我們會立刻的已經在要求了然後他們有提一些相關的報告我們再做進一步的處理\n我要提醒的就是即使他照的是農田是有關於灌溉的整體的狀況來做一些防災或是防旱這樣的一個監視但是同樣的我認為這整體的精力一共發了15天而且相關的部會並沒有積極想要處理是因為本席不斷的透過辦公室追蹤然後才追到這樣的一個結果所以我還是希望雖然說農業部面對國安問題可能不是第一線但是\n面對這樣的事情是不可以有任何的怠慢,也應該要積極的來面對跟處理好嗎?會,我們一定會這樣做。好,另外一個跟國安議題相關的就是有關於電動,中國的電動車是不是會是木馬屠城的威脅喔?那麼對於台灣來講我們到底有沒有危機意識?我想本席找了這些報導,不論是美國、澳洲或者是英國,\n三、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n的網絡去做第三地甚至於境外的一個操控所以這也是為什麼其實現在許多的國家都認為中國的電動車充滿了木馬屠城的危害但是本席發現的就是其實不只是中國的電動汽車或是自用的汽車現在是不是中國製的公車其實也在全台的北中南到處趴趴走那我們知道其實\n大眾捷運系統的部分公車也算是一個關鍵技術所以我要先問一下院長或是部長就是當中國的電動車現在遍佈全台那我們該如何來處理因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定的中國車產的定義就是中國大陸的品牌嘛然後陸資跟國際品牌合資或者是中國的資金跟國際品牌來做合資\n﹚林楚茵\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n大眾的關鍵的運輸系統也是關鍵基礎設施的時候那這兩者之間我們到底如何守住國安然後在國內又能夠達到淨零碳排電動車的好處那這兩者之間如何取捨 院長\n報告委員我想經濟部在今年7月已經有提出來提升國產化汽車的自治率這樣的一個規範那麼要求國產汽車的自治率門檻要逐年提高那這個比例是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算防止他國的低價產品來傾銷台灣那麼這也是各國的這個政策的趨勢這是第一個第二個呢您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題\n對那麼這個怕這個車聯網那我們現在目前對汽車的這個電腦跟軟體啊雖然沒有進行這個管制但是我們有透過在地化比率的來要求那麼在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件將如何管制資訊安全的整這個規範來控制它\n所以目前有從中國進來的中華汽車、山陽汽車、福特汽車他們都表示他們的軟體並不會主動聯網而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作所以目前委員所擔心資安這個問題應該是不存在的\n這個我們這個會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬\n然後跟這個委員做一個詳細的報告好,因為這個事情它已經存在了我知道已經在各個地方政府上路的公車那麼到底有沒有資安一律也許必須要去重視它你第一時間你說要完全的才剛上路又要它不能走也不太可能但是就像我們講到的這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網有沒有可能成為境外可以操控的所謂木馬塗層器的不定時炸彈因為我們知道\n是,我們馬上回去以後,馬上來這個盤查一下,然後把這個結論來跟委員做報告。\n那麼另外當然就是我們提到的,如果歐美各國對於中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候,那麼接下來後續呢?我們不能說自用車不能中國電動車,中國產的中國車,中國品牌不能進來,但是中國製的公車的電動車在我們全國的境內跑,這會不會是開了另外一扇小門?\n三點跟委員報告第一個燃油車我們要求自治率是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件的產業希望不要受到衝擊那麼在電動車的方面我們是要求的更多是因為他的資安穩定\n甚至他的低價傾銷那這個是現在國際的潮流也針對這個事情來處理的那電動車有兩個已經進來的部分剛剛部長講的我們會加強從內部的管理他的這個物聯網能不能就有效的評斷這個要處理\n再來新要進來的我們會對於電池的要求特別特別的嚴厲因為在世界上闡說太多電池發生燃爆等等不應該的有個安全狀況我們會在這裡做處理這樣處理的話對未來的我們會加嚴來管制已經進來的就部長剛剛說的我們從內部會加嚴來管控\n好謝謝這個院長這麼清晰的一個方向跟說明喔這個對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾藝術系統也放進去這個對於全民的安全是非常重要的最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的也是跟電動車相關那就是當我們有要求就像部長所說的像院長所提的我們有國產車的自治率之後那麼關於車用電腦或者是軟體我們要怎麼樣做規範喔因為\n在這個零組件的部分其實中國還是我們最大的零組件的進口高達了百分之三十三\n金額更是到7月累積了235.9億元喔 那麼很多時候是車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製必須要有零組件的進口可是如果當整個中國成為我們重要的汽車零組件進口的大方向或者是說相關的重要的關鍵技術的時候我們該怎麼辦\n面對這樣一個狀況,院長這邊跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法是可以降低對於中國林組件的依賴?我們現在是有,對這些林組件我們要求他漸漸的提高擴廠化的標準。那國內的廠商因為這個量的問題,所以他們對開這個模具會有一些抗拒。\n不過我們現在正式的告訴他們這個就是一個政策希望這個業者能夠同意那最近的溝通的這個結果他們也願意所以這個我想在未來我們這個會從中國進來的這個林組建會越來越少甚至一次臨\n尤其是像電腦或者是聯網相關的系統啊藍牙喇叭等等這個都要非常注意這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係我們不容許太多資安問題進來那我們也有一些零件去到中國大陸雙邊一定要在平等的架構底下來互通連交流\n好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.377 --> 00:17.598\n謝謝主席主席有請卓院長林委員好\n\n00:29.212 --> 00:42.244\n院長好,很開心可以在這邊首次來質詢您。我要問的這個問題之前,我想問一個比較輕鬆的。您在家裡有養寵物嗎?以前有。以前有養過。你知道現在的科技已經進步到有一些飼養這些\n\n00:46.860 --> 01:16.283\n所謂毛小孩的這些事主他們擔心毛小孩在家裡沒有人照顧他就會用一個所謂的監視器然後來看這些毛小孩在家裡的狀況那通常這樣的APP呢他都會設定好的所以他的密碼為了怕雇主忘記他會有個預設的密碼那麼就會是可能1234啊000啊這個就是方便雇主那如果雇主重新使用或是忘記他就可以直接來使用但是這個是一般的家庭裡面但是我們如果\n\n01:16.783 --> 01:17.883\n我會開這個頭的原因就是因為呢\n\n01:46.276 --> 02:09.033\n這個院長來看一下螢幕上面這個是在今年的9月5號的時候媒體臥草他通過社群平台所公布的這個照片當時我第一時間發現之後我就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們的營區外面而且這個影像竟然是你上網你就可以看得到了\n\n02:10.097 --> 02:35.440\n那當時我詢問了國防部之後,國防部告訴我說,哎,委員你誤會了,這其實不是國防部的,其實是在我們的農業部底下的相關監察這個農水路測試的這個鏡頭,可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了,轉向原因不明,但是經過了我們的了解之後,國防部第一時間的回覆是說,他們找到這個營區,而且馬上就把它遮蔽,那麼就避免\n\n02:35.981 --> 02:37.502\n本席在請農業部相關的單位做了解的時候,\n\n03:04.878 --> 03:16.119\n整本的完整的報告居然是10月7號才給我但是到底為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得而且可以被媒體直接就擷取\n\n03:17.489 --> 03:43.534\n這到底有沒有解決而且全國還有多少這種處在一個關鍵的重要的軍事要塞那麼原本他可能是在照農田照一般的我們的民眾或是農民所需要的相關的回覆但是他卻照到了軍營照到了重要的基礎的關鍵的我們的重要的國防要塞部長怎麼來看這個問題院長怎麼來看這個問題\n\n03:46.431 --> 04:10.421\n首先報告謝謝委員這麼重要的一個提醒這是絕對的疏忽我覺得這個應該立即要馬上杜絕所有現在這種現象第二以後要通令所有跟這個攝影攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門要全面的禁止要用這個例子當全面的禁止再來就針對這一件如果是農業部這個水產署是不是水利署\n\n04:12.202 --> 04:22.321\n那我覺得部長要去了解,如果在行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話,行政的追究我覺得應該必須,而且要把它廣泛讓全國各部會通通要了解。\n\n04:22.813 --> 04:47.205\n因為我會提這個問題就表示說他是媒體先發現然後我又在媒體上發現那顯然是負責要去監視或者是管理這個器材或是影像的人他完全沒有注意到就像我剛剛開頭所提到的這個設備他可能是透過一個網路一個APP或一個系統來做操作那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了\n\n04:47.605 --> 05:09.580\n又或者是密碼設置的太簡單,因為很容易我們的原始密碼就是8088812345678,那麼這個會不會是整體的包括現在農業部底下,農田署、農水署所有的這樣的鏡頭都也有面臨系統密碼設置不安全,或者是太容易被破解的狀況。\n\n05:12.144 --> 05:32.362\n我跟委員報告就是當事件發生的時候我們做了兩件事情第一件事情我要求他們清查所有的原來在監控水路的峻路的這些攝影機如果他的周遭有一些敏感的這些區域的話那個攝影機應該立即拆除因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門他們去做內部使用的一個控管\n\n05:32.842 --> 06:01.881\n那第二個部分就是他們整個攝影機本身的後台他是一個內部的網路就是供內部這些漲水工來使用的那後續我也會他們叫他們來根據我們的那個自動安全的一個管理面跟人員的訓練做一個加強我們希望說就算內部的漲水工在使用的時候包括你的帳號密碼或相關的跟資訊安全有關的話一定要確實落實定期的去更換密碼\n\n06:03.022 --> 06:12.549\n不要用最簡單的一個密碼很容易讓人家去使用這個部分我想我們會立刻的已經在要求了然後他們有提一些相關的報告我們再做進一步的處理\n\n06:13.386 --> 06:41.811\n我要提醒的就是即使他照的是農田是有關於灌溉的整體的狀況來做一些防災或是防旱這樣的一個監視但是同樣的我認為這整體的精力一共發了15天而且相關的部會並沒有積極想要處理是因為本席不斷的透過辦公室追蹤然後才追到這樣的一個結果所以我還是希望雖然說農業部面對國安問題可能不是第一線但是\n\n06:42.771 --> 07:05.352\n面對這樣的事情是不可以有任何的怠慢,也應該要積極的來面對跟處理好嗎?會,我們一定會這樣做。好,另外一個跟國安議題相關的就是有關於電動,中國的電動車是不是會是木馬屠城的威脅喔?那麼對於台灣來講我們到底有沒有危機意識?我想本席找了這些報導,不論是美國、澳洲或者是英國,\n\n07:05.973 --> 07:05.993\n三、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n\n07:26.443 --> 07:52.171\n的網絡去做第三地甚至於境外的一個操控所以這也是為什麼其實現在許多的國家都認為中國的電動車充滿了木馬屠城的危害但是本席發現的就是其實不只是中國的電動汽車或是自用的汽車現在是不是中國製的公車其實也在全台的北中南到處趴趴走那我們知道其實\n\n07:53.564 --> 08:18.804\n大眾捷運系統的部分公車也算是一個關鍵技術所以我要先問一下院長或是部長就是當中國的電動車現在遍佈全台那我們該如何來處理因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定的中國車產的定義就是中國大陸的品牌嘛然後陸資跟國際品牌合資或者是中國的資金跟國際品牌來做合資\n\n08:19.545 --> 08:19.605\n﹚林楚茵\n\n08:34.565 --> 08:34.585\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n\n08:49.642 --> 09:07.438\n大眾的關鍵的運輸系統也是關鍵基礎設施的時候那這兩者之間我們到底如何守住國安然後在國內又能夠達到淨零碳排電動車的好處那這兩者之間如何取捨院長\n\n09:08.758 --> 09:35.973\n報告委員我想經濟部在今年7月已經有提出來提升國產化汽車的自治率這樣的一個規範那麼要求國產汽車的自治率門檻要逐年提高那這個比例是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算防止他國的低價產品來傾銷台灣那麼這也是各國的這個政策的趨勢這是第一個第二個呢您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題\n\n09:37.213 --> 09:57.946\n對那麼這個怕這個車聯網那我們現在目前對汽車的這個電腦跟軟體啊雖然沒有進行這個管制但是我們有透過在地化比率的來要求那麼在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件將如何管制資訊安全的整這個規範來控制它\n\n09:59.867 --> 10:21.099\n所以目前有從中國進來的中華汽車、山陽汽車、福特汽車他們都表示他們的軟體並不會主動聯網而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作所以目前委員所擔心資安這個問題應該是不存在的\n\n10:21.809 --> 10:23.270\n這個我們這個會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬\n\n10:51.710 --> 11:20.737\n然後跟這個委員做一個詳細的報告好,因為這個事情它已經存在了我知道已經在各個地方政府上路的公車那麼到底有沒有資安一律也許必須要去重視它你第一時間你說要完全的才剛上路又要它不能走也不太可能但是就像我們講到的這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網有沒有可能成為境外可以操控的所謂木馬塗層器的不定時炸彈因為我們知道\n\n11:21.397 --> 11:24.019\n是,我們馬上回去以後,馬上來這個盤查一下,然後把這個結論來跟委員做報告。\n\n11:47.555 --> 12:10.747\n那麼另外當然就是我們提到的,如果歐美各國對於中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候,那麼接下來後續呢?我們不能說自用車不能中國電動車,中國產的中國車,中國品牌不能進來,但是中國製的公車的電動車在我們全國的境內跑,這會不會是開了另外一扇小門?\n\n12:16.132 --> 12:29.767\n三點跟委員報告第一個燃油車我們要求自治率是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件的產業希望不要受到衝擊那麼在電動車的方面我們是要求的更多是因為他的資安穩定\n\n12:31.826 --> 12:45.654\n甚至他的低價傾銷那這個是現在國際的潮流也針對這個事情來處理的那電動車有兩個已經進來的部分剛剛部長講的我們會加強從內部的管理他的這個物聯網能不能就有效的評斷這個要處理\n\n12:47.555 --> 13:02.220\n再來新要進來的我們會對於電池的要求特別特別的嚴厲因為在世界上闡說太多電池發生燃爆等等不應該的有個安全狀況我們會在這裡做處理這樣處理的話對未來的我們會加嚴來管制已經進來的就部長剛剛說的我們從內部會加嚴來管控\n\n13:06.820 --> 13:28.527\n好謝謝這個院長這麼清晰的一個方向跟說明喔這個對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾藝術系統也放進去這個對於全民的安全是非常重要的最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的也是跟電動車相關那就是當我們有要求就像部長所說的像院長所提的我們有國產車的自治率之後那麼關於車用電腦或者是軟體我們要怎麼樣做規範喔因為\n\n13:32.088 --> 13:39.133\n在這個零組件的部分其實中國還是我們最大的零組件的進口高達了百分之三十三\n\n13:41.209 --> 14:04.881\n金額更是到7月累積了235.9億元喔那麼很多時候是車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製必須要有零組件的進口可是如果當整個中國成為我們重要的汽車零組件進口的大方向或者是說相關的重要的關鍵技術的時候我們該怎麼辦\n\n14:05.701 --> 14:31.154\n面對這樣一個狀況,院長這邊跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法是可以降低對於中國林組件的依賴?我們現在是有,對這些林組件我們要求他漸漸的提高擴廠化的標準。那國內的廠商因為這個量的問題,所以他們對開這個模具會有一些抗拒。\n\n14:31.914 --> 14:47.899\n不過我們現在正式的告訴他們這個就是一個政策希望這個業者能夠同意那最近的溝通的這個結果他們也願意所以這個我想在未來我們這個會從中國進來的這個林組建會越來越少甚至一次臨\n\n14:48.992 --> 15:06.258\n尤其是像電腦或者是聯網相關的系統啊藍牙喇叭等等這個都要非常注意這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係我們不容許太多資安問題進來那我們也有一些零件去到中國大陸雙邊一定要在平等的架構底下來互通連交流\n\n15:06.786 --> 15:06.806\n好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.377,"end":17.598,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請卓院長林委員好"},{"start":29.212,"end":42.244,"text":"院長好,很開心可以在這邊首次來質詢您。我要問的這個問題之前,我想問一個比較輕鬆的。您在家裡有養寵物嗎?以前有。以前有養過。你知道現在的科技已經進步到有一些飼養這些"},{"start":46.86,"end":76.283,"text":"所謂毛小孩的這些事主他們擔心毛小孩在家裡沒有人照顧他就會用一個所謂的監視器然後來看這些毛小孩在家裡的狀況那通常這樣的APP呢他都會設定好的所以他的密碼為了怕雇主忘記他會有個預設的密碼那麼就會是可能1234啊000啊這個就是方便雇主那如果雇主重新使用或是忘記他就可以直接來使用但是這個是一般的家庭裡面但是我們如果"},{"start":76.783,"end":77.883,"text":"我會開這個頭的原因就是因為呢"},{"start":106.276,"end":129.033,"text":"這個院長來看一下螢幕上面這個是在今年的9月5號的時候媒體臥草他通過社群平台所公布的這個照片當時我第一時間發現之後我就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們的營區外面而且這個影像竟然是你上網你就可以看得到了"},{"start":130.097,"end":155.44,"text":"那當時我詢問了國防部之後,國防部告訴我說,哎,委員你誤會了,這其實不是國防部的,其實是在我們的農業部底下的相關監察這個農水路測試的這個鏡頭,可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了,轉向原因不明,但是經過了我們的了解之後,國防部第一時間的回覆是說,他們找到這個營區,而且馬上就把它遮蔽,那麼就避免"},{"start":155.981,"end":157.502,"text":"本席在請農業部相關的單位做了解的時候,"},{"start":184.878,"end":196.119,"text":"整本的完整的報告居然是10月7號才給我但是到底為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得而且可以被媒體直接就擷取"},{"start":197.489,"end":223.534,"text":"這到底有沒有解決而且全國還有多少這種處在一個關鍵的重要的軍事要塞那麼原本他可能是在照農田照一般的我們的民眾或是農民所需要的相關的回覆但是他卻照到了軍營照到了重要的基礎的關鍵的我們的重要的國防要塞部長怎麼來看這個問題院長怎麼來看這個問題"},{"start":226.431,"end":250.421,"text":"首先報告謝謝委員這麼重要的一個提醒這是絕對的疏忽我覺得這個應該立即要馬上杜絕所有現在這種現象第二以後要通令所有跟這個攝影攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門要全面的禁止要用這個例子當全面的禁止再來就針對這一件如果是農業部這個水產署是不是水利署"},{"start":252.202,"end":262.321,"text":"那我覺得部長要去了解,如果在行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話,行政的追究我覺得應該必須,而且要把它廣泛讓全國各部會通通要了解。"},{"start":262.813,"end":287.205,"text":"因為我會提這個問題就表示說他是媒體先發現然後我又在媒體上發現那顯然是負責要去監視或者是管理這個器材或是影像的人他完全沒有注意到就像我剛剛開頭所提到的這個設備他可能是透過一個網路一個APP或一個系統來做操作那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了"},{"start":287.605,"end":309.58,"text":"又或者是密碼設置的太簡單,因為很容易我們的原始密碼就是8088812345678,那麼這個會不會是整體的包括現在農業部底下,農田署、農水署所有的這樣的鏡頭都也有面臨系統密碼設置不安全,或者是太容易被破解的狀況。"},{"start":312.144,"end":332.362,"text":"我跟委員報告就是當事件發生的時候我們做了兩件事情第一件事情我要求他們清查所有的原來在監控水路的峻路的這些攝影機如果他的周遭有一些敏感的這些區域的話那個攝影機應該立即拆除因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門他們去做內部使用的一個控管"},{"start":332.842,"end":361.881,"text":"那第二個部分就是他們整個攝影機本身的後台他是一個內部的網路就是供內部這些漲水工來使用的那後續我也會他們叫他們來根據我們的那個自動安全的一個管理面跟人員的訓練做一個加強我們希望說就算內部的漲水工在使用的時候包括你的帳號密碼或相關的跟資訊安全有關的話一定要確實落實定期的去更換密碼"},{"start":363.022,"end":372.549,"text":"不要用最簡單的一個密碼很容易讓人家去使用這個部分我想我們會立刻的已經在要求了然後他們有提一些相關的報告我們再做進一步的處理"},{"start":373.386,"end":401.811,"text":"我要提醒的就是即使他照的是農田是有關於灌溉的整體的狀況來做一些防災或是防旱這樣的一個監視但是同樣的我認為這整體的精力一共發了15天而且相關的部會並沒有積極想要處理是因為本席不斷的透過辦公室追蹤然後才追到這樣的一個結果所以我還是希望雖然說農業部面對國安問題可能不是第一線但是"},{"start":402.771,"end":425.352,"text":"面對這樣的事情是不可以有任何的怠慢,也應該要積極的來面對跟處理好嗎?會,我們一定會這樣做。好,另外一個跟國安議題相關的就是有關於電動,中國的電動車是不是會是木馬屠城的威脅喔?那麼對於台灣來講我們到底有沒有危機意識?我想本席找了這些報導,不論是美國、澳洲或者是英國,"},{"start":425.973,"end":425.993,"text":"三、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":446.443,"end":472.171,"text":"的網絡去做第三地甚至於境外的一個操控所以這也是為什麼其實現在許多的國家都認為中國的電動車充滿了木馬屠城的危害但是本席發現的就是其實不只是中國的電動汽車或是自用的汽車現在是不是中國製的公車其實也在全台的北中南到處趴趴走那我們知道其實"},{"start":473.564,"end":498.804,"text":"大眾捷運系統的部分公車也算是一個關鍵技術所以我要先問一下院長或是部長就是當中國的電動車現在遍佈全台那我們該如何來處理因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定的中國車產的定義就是中國大陸的品牌嘛然後陸資跟國際品牌合資或者是中國的資金跟國際品牌來做合資"},{"start":499.545,"end":499.605,"text":"﹚林楚茵"},{"start":514.565,"end":514.585,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":529.642,"end":547.438,"text":"大眾的關鍵的運輸系統也是關鍵基礎設施的時候那這兩者之間我們到底如何守住國安然後在國內又能夠達到淨零碳排電動車的好處那這兩者之間如何取捨 院長"},{"start":548.758,"end":575.973,"text":"報告委員我想經濟部在今年7月已經有提出來提升國產化汽車的自治率這樣的一個規範那麼要求國產汽車的自治率門檻要逐年提高那這個比例是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算防止他國的低價產品來傾銷台灣那麼這也是各國的這個政策的趨勢這是第一個第二個呢您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題"},{"start":577.213,"end":597.946,"text":"對那麼這個怕這個車聯網那我們現在目前對汽車的這個電腦跟軟體啊雖然沒有進行這個管制但是我們有透過在地化比率的來要求那麼在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件將如何管制資訊安全的整這個規範來控制它"},{"start":599.867,"end":621.099,"text":"所以目前有從中國進來的中華汽車、山陽汽車、福特汽車他們都表示他們的軟體並不會主動聯網而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作所以目前委員所擔心資安這個問題應該是不存在的"},{"start":621.809,"end":623.27,"text":"這個我們這個會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬"},{"start":651.71,"end":680.737,"text":"然後跟這個委員做一個詳細的報告好,因為這個事情它已經存在了我知道已經在各個地方政府上路的公車那麼到底有沒有資安一律也許必須要去重視它你第一時間你說要完全的才剛上路又要它不能走也不太可能但是就像我們講到的這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網有沒有可能成為境外可以操控的所謂木馬塗層器的不定時炸彈因為我們知道"},{"start":681.397,"end":684.019,"text":"是,我們馬上回去以後,馬上來這個盤查一下,然後把這個結論來跟委員做報告。"},{"start":707.555,"end":730.747,"text":"那麼另外當然就是我們提到的,如果歐美各國對於中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候,那麼接下來後續呢?我們不能說自用車不能中國電動車,中國產的中國車,中國品牌不能進來,但是中國製的公車的電動車在我們全國的境內跑,這會不會是開了另外一扇小門?"},{"start":736.132,"end":749.767,"text":"三點跟委員報告第一個燃油車我們要求自治率是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件的產業希望不要受到衝擊那麼在電動車的方面我們是要求的更多是因為他的資安穩定"},{"start":751.826,"end":765.654,"text":"甚至他的低價傾銷那這個是現在國際的潮流也針對這個事情來處理的那電動車有兩個已經進來的部分剛剛部長講的我們會加強從內部的管理他的這個物聯網能不能就有效的評斷這個要處理"},{"start":767.555,"end":782.22,"text":"再來新要進來的我們會對於電池的要求特別特別的嚴厲因為在世界上闡說太多電池發生燃爆等等不應該的有個安全狀況我們會在這裡做處理這樣處理的話對未來的我們會加嚴來管制已經進來的就部長剛剛說的我們從內部會加嚴來管控"},{"start":786.82,"end":808.527,"text":"好謝謝這個院長這麼清晰的一個方向跟說明喔這個對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾藝術系統也放進去這個對於全民的安全是非常重要的最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的也是跟電動車相關那就是當我們有要求就像部長所說的像院長所提的我們有國產車的自治率之後那麼關於車用電腦或者是軟體我們要怎麼樣做規範喔因為"},{"start":812.088,"end":819.133,"text":"在這個零組件的部分其實中國還是我們最大的零組件的進口高達了百分之三十三"},{"start":821.209,"end":844.881,"text":"金額更是到7月累積了235.9億元喔 那麼很多時候是車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製必須要有零組件的進口可是如果當整個中國成為我們重要的汽車零組件進口的大方向或者是說相關的重要的關鍵技術的時候我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":845.701,"end":871.154,"text":"面對這樣一個狀況,院長這邊跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法是可以降低對於中國林組件的依賴?我們現在是有,對這些林組件我們要求他漸漸的提高擴廠化的標準。那國內的廠商因為這個量的問題,所以他們對開這個模具會有一些抗拒。"},{"start":871.914,"end":887.899,"text":"不過我們現在正式的告訴他們這個就是一個政策希望這個業者能夠同意那最近的溝通的這個結果他們也願意所以這個我想在未來我們這個會從中國進來的這個林組建會越來越少甚至一次臨"},{"start":888.992,"end":906.258,"text":"尤其是像電腦或者是聯網相關的系統啊藍牙喇叭等等這個都要非常注意這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係我們不容許太多資安問題進來那我們也有一些零件去到中國大陸雙邊一定要在平等的架構底下來互通連交流"},{"start":906.786,"end":906.806,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:57:06 - 11:12:41","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155383,"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時57分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：院長好。很開心可以在這邊首次來質詢您，在提問之前，我想問一個比較輕鬆的，您在家裡有養寵物嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：以前有。"],["林委員楚茵：你知道現在的科技已經進步到就是一些飼養所謂毛小孩的飼主，他們擔心毛小孩在家裡沒有人照顧，就會用一個所謂的監視器來監看這些毛小孩在家裡的狀況。通常這樣的app都是設定好的，為了怕雇主忘記，它會有個預設的密碼，可能就是「1234」或「000」，這個就是為了方便雇主，如果雇主要重新使用或是忘記了，他就可以直接以此來做使用。但是這個是在一般的家庭裡面，如果監視器是放在公開場域的話，就算是一個我們已經買進來的app，它有一些迴路、使用等等，它的密碼其實都要常常去異動，這樣才安全，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，一般個人的使用，可能求的是方便，但是牽扯到公共事務的，應該在強烈的資安要求下，要達到安全，而且是要絕對的安全。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我會開這個頭的原因，就是因為我要請院長看一下螢幕，這是今年9月5號媒體沃草透過社群平臺所公布的照片，當時我第一時間發現之後，就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們營區的外面，而且這個影像竟然是上網就可以看得到！當時我詢問國防部，國防部告訴我說，委員，你誤會了，這其實不是國防部的，其實是我們農業部底下相關監查農水路測試的鏡頭，可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了，轉向原因不明。經過我們了解之後，國防部第一時間的回復是，他們找到了這個營區，而且馬上就把它遮蔽，避免該營區的操勤、出缺勤被外洩。","但是重點來了，在9月5號媒體報導之前，到底曝光了多久？還有就是有多少我們不知道的鏡頭，在這樣的狀況底下轉向了一些關鍵跟敏感的地方？","本席為什麼在今天（10月11日）還會特別提出來，是因為本席在請農業部相關單位做了解時，整本的完整報告居然是10月7日才給我！為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得？而且可以直接被媒體擷取？這問題到底有沒有解決？全國還有多少這種關鍵的、重要的軍事要塞，原本鏡頭可能是在照農田、照一般民眾或是農業所需，但卻照到了軍營，照到了重要的基礎關鍵設施，照到了我們重要的國防要塞？部長，你怎麼來看這問題？院長怎麼來看這問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先報告，謝謝委員這麼重要的提醒，這是絕對的疏忽，我覺得應該要立即、馬上杜絕現在所有這種現象。第二，以後要通令所有跟攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門全面禁止，要以這個例子來全面禁止。再來，針對這一件，如果是農業部水產署……"],["陳部長駿季：農田水利署。"],["林委員楚茵：農水署。"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得部長要去了解，如果行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話，我覺得必須行政追究，而且要廣泛讓全國及各部會通通了解。"],["林委員楚茵：我會提這個問題就表示這是媒體先發現的，然後我又在媒體上發現，顯然負責監視或管理這個器材、影像的人完全沒有注意到！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員楚茵：就像我剛剛開頭所提到的，這個設備可能是透過網路、app或系統來操作，那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了？又或是密碼設置得太簡單？因為原始密碼就是8個0或888、12345678，這會不會是整體的，包括農業部底下農水署所有的鏡頭都面臨系統密碼設置不安全，或者是太容易被破解的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，當事件發生時，我們做了兩件事情：第一件事情，我要求他們清查所有原來在監控水路、圳路的攝影機，如果周遭有一些敏感區域的話，那麼該攝影機應立即拆除，因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門，由他們去做內部使用的控管。第二個部分就是，攝影機的後臺是一個內部網路，供內部掌水工使用，後續我也會要求他們根據資通安全就管理面跟人員訓練做加強，就算是內部掌水工在使用，包括帳號、密碼或跟資訊安全有關的，我希望一定要確實落實，並定期更換密碼，不要用最簡單的密碼，否則會很容易被人家使用。這部分我們已經在要求了，他們也有提一些相關報告，我們會再做進一步處理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我要提醒的就是，即使照的是農田，與灌溉整體狀況有關，以作為防災或防旱的監視。但這件事一共經歷了15天，而且相關部會並沒有積極想處理，是因為本席不斷透過辦公室追蹤，才追到這樣一個結果。雖然面對國安問題，農業部可能不是第一線，但面對這樣的事情，我希望不可以有任何怠慢，也應該要積極地面對跟處理，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們一定會這樣做。"],["林委員楚茵：另外一個跟國安議題相關的，就是有關中國電動車會不會是木馬屠城的威脅？對臺灣來講，我們到底有沒有危機意識？本席找了這些報導發現，不論是美國、澳洲或英國，現在都把中國電動車視為木馬屠城，這是非常可怕的。我們知道電動車有很多零組件，包括藍牙耳機或現在的自動駕駛等等，都可以經過網路上衛星之後，可以從其他周邊的網絡去做第三地甚至境外操控。這也是為什麼現在許多國家都認為，中國電動車充滿木馬屠城的危害！","但是本席發現不只是中國的電動汽車或自用汽車，現在中國製的公車其實也在全臺北中南到處趴趴走。我們知道大眾捷運系統的部分，公車也算是一個關鍵設施，所以我要先問院長或部長，當中國電動車現在遍布全臺，我們應該如何處理？因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定「中國車款」的定義就是中國大陸的品牌、陸資跟國際品牌合資、中國的資金跟國際品牌合資，或者是品牌在中國工廠生產，這些我們都認為是中國車款。如果是這樣的話，面對現在我們有許多公車，甚至於就是中國的品牌比亞迪，我們該如何面對這種強調節能減碳的中國電動車公車現在已經在臺灣滿街跑？如果公車也算是交通部訂定的大眾關鍵運輸系統，也是關鍵基礎設施的時候，在這兩者之間，我們到底如何守住國安，在國內又能達到淨零碳排電動車的好處？這兩者之間如何取捨？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想經濟部在今年7月已經提出提升國產化汽車自製率的規範，要求國產汽車自製率門檻要逐年提高，這個比率是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算，防止他國的低價產品傾銷臺灣，這也是各國政策的趨勢，這是第一個。","第二個，您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題……"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["郭部長智輝：這個怕車聯網。我們雖然目前對汽車的電腦跟軟體沒有進行管制，但是我們有透過在地化比率來要求，在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件，將如何管制資訊安全等規範來控制它，所以目前從中國進來的中華汽車、三陽汽車、福特汽車都表示他們的軟體並不會主動連網，而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作，所以目前委員所擔心的資安問題應該是不存在的。那我們……"],["林委員楚茵：所以部長的言下之意是說，現在我們的公車部分，我現在問的是公車，尤其是中國製的公車，包括中國品牌比亞迪的公車在全臺北中南都有上路的情況下，真的是確定它們是中國製的電動車，而且是中國品牌，但是沒有資安疑慮，有進行過清查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬，然後跟委員做一個詳細的報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為這個事情已經存在了，對於已經在各個地方政府上路的公車到底有沒有資安疑慮，也許必須要去重視它，你第一時間說要完全的，畢竟才剛上路，要它不能走也不太可能，但是就像我們所講到的，這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網？有沒有可能成為在境外就可以操控的所謂木馬屠城記的不定時炸彈？我們知道真主黨的BB Call可以跨境爆炸，連BB Call都可以爆炸的時候，那麼一台大型的公共汽車在路上走，確實是有危險的可能，所以部長有承諾現在要重新盤整，會去做瞭解跟清查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們回去以後馬上來盤查一下，然後把結論跟委員做報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，另外當然就是我們提到的，如果歐美各國規定中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候，接下來後續呢？我們不能說自用車不能是中國電動車，中國產的中國車、中國品牌不能進來，但是中國製的公車電動車在我們全國的境內跑，這會不會開了另外一扇小門？後續又要如何處理？是不是行政院也可以研議？"],["卓院長榮泰：三點跟委員報告，第一個，燃油車我們要求自製率，是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件產業，希望不要受到衝擊，那麼在電動車方面，我們要求得更多，是因為它的資安、穩定，甚至低價傾銷，現在國際潮流也針對這個事情在做處理了。電動車有兩方面，已經進來的部分，誠如剛剛部長所講的，我們會加強內部管理，它的物聯網能不能有效屏斷，這個要處理。再來是新進來的部分，我們會對電池的要求特別特別嚴厲，因為世界上有太多電池發生燃爆等等不該有的安全狀況，我們會在這裡做處理。也就是說，這樣處理的話，對未來的我們會加嚴管制，對於已經進來的，就是部長剛剛說的，我們從內部會加嚴來管控。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝院長這麼清晰的方向跟說明，對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾運輸系統也放進去，這對全民的安全真的非常重要。","最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的，也是跟電動車相關，那就是當我們有要求，就像部長所說的、像院長所提到的，我們有國產車自製率之後，關於車用電腦跟軟體要怎麼規範？因為在零組件的部分，中國其實還是我們最大的零組件進口，高達了32%、33%，金額到7月更是累計了235.9億元，很多時候車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製，必須要有零組件進口，可是當整個中國成為我們重要汽車零組件進口大方向或是相關重要關鍵技術的時候，我們該怎麼辦？面對這樣的狀況，院長跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法可以降低對中國零組件的依賴？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是有，對這些零組件，我們要求要漸漸提高國產化的標準，國內廠商因為量的問題，所以他們對於開模具會有一些抗拒，不過我們現在正式告訴他們，這個就是政策，希望業者能夠同意，最近的溝通結果是他們也願意，所以我想未來我們從中國進來的零組件會越來越少，甚至於是零。"],["林委員楚茵：好，尤其是像電腦或連網相關系統、藍牙喇叭等等，這個都要非常注意。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係，我們不容許太多資安問題進來，我們也有些零件去到中國大陸，雙邊一定要在平等的架構之下來互通與交流。"],["林委員楚茵：好。最後一個就是當我們在關注零組件的時候，很有可能上有政策下有對策，就是這些零組件乾脆直接到第三地去，譬如泰國或其他地方洗產地，有關於洗產地部分，事實上我也希望行政院跟經濟部能夠來關注這樣的話題，不要到最後我們沒有進口了，但變成整台從第三地進來的中國車。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，這個我們會列入考慮。謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}}