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00:00:17,200\n主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長\n\n2\n00:00:32,365 --> 00:00:44,152\n今天大部分的委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題,這本席也不例外,特別點一下稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候講說台南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了\n\n3\n00:00:45,066 --> 00:01:11,255\n那我必須要講我是桃園選出來的民意代表我桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊我要提醒一下兩位這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的很有可能會導致區域的對立但我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了那我們當然要站在選民這一邊所以未來我們的這個民營電廠的同意的興建本席是愛南同意但這些事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教\n\n4\n00:01:11,855 --> 00:01:26,432\n但這個指出了一個大的問題也就是說我們的能源政策顯然是亂七八糟而且後遺症頻傳現在正在發生不管是電廠的擴建遭致民怨或者是電價的上漲等等都是能源政策的後遺症\n\n5\n00:01:26,812 --> 00:01:56,155\n今天我們要把話說說清楚因為人民的知情權是很重要的能源政策會影響產業發展影響環境品質影響民生影響物價因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向但是人民有權力知道走向跟邏輯而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相剛剛院長回答這個李燕秀委員的質詢的時候曾經有講能源政策都會合理的延續他問你蔡政府的政策你會不會延續\n\n6\n00:01:56,775 --> 00:02:25,449\n你說都會延續對不對?我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進,該發展更快的我們絕對不會怠慢。真的嗎?以前慢下來的我們希望把它補上來。你真的有延續嗎?我再給你一次機會。我們希望延續,但是...別希望延續。院長,你知不知道電業法最近公告的修正,修正的差異是什麼?你知不知道?委員請他講哪一個重點告訴我們。電業法修正最大...部長要不要救援一下?電業法修正最大的重點是什麼?\n\n7\n00:02:25,899 --> 00:02:53,217\n就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整這兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗電業法修正最大的差異不再是電價這些問題這是肢解最大的核心的問題是改變了2016修正版本之後一個重要的決策叫做台電拆分我這樣提示之後你們有印象嗎2016年的電業法要求能源勝車的規劃跟走向是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:54,148 --> 00:03:08,522\n報告委員那個時候我還沒有進來沒有進來這個行政院對你現在要修嘛表示你要修舊的對不對最近除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外上一次是2016年修的這最大的差異是什麼\n\n9\n00:03:09,835 --> 00:03:24,416\n兩位不知道,很可怕,沒關係,我來跟兩位說分明。第二把修正最關鍵的就是要把第六條拿掉。曾經啊,這我們講說為了要扶植綠電,為了要打造一個健康的環境,民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊。\n\n10\n00:03:25,597 --> 00:03:52,864\n財務不透明做事不效率還有長電等等亂七八糟必須要改革必須要整頓所以搞出一個電業法的版本這個電業法的版本告訴大家6年之後還一定要分拆等於走向民營化的路把這個發書配跟售拆分對不對有一個這樣子重要的指導綱領在這個地方對不對好2024馬上公佈要進入修正的電業法裡面這條刪除了\n\n11\n00:03:53,764 --> 00:04:00,911\n這是重大的政策轉變吧,院長,是嗎?是的。是對不對?那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:02,864 --> 00:04:30,462\n政策的延續它不一定是一成不變的,我們現在面對很多的事情,就是在整個大的能源架構底下,我們從蒸汽、展綠到多元到核,這個都一定是照著程序走的,但內容是可以調整的,時程也是可以彈性的。大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題,我今天就先不談配比的問題,但我談別的,比如說電液法修正就是一個很好的題目,你剛剛講說會延續又說要修正,這其實是矛盾的概念,我先問,這個電液法的修正誰的決策?\n\n13\n00:04:33,605 --> 00:04:39,929\n是院長您的決策,比如行政院開會決議的結果,還是說郭部長提出來的想法,還是就是現在你們還有這個氣候變遷委員會對不對,經濟發展相關的委員會,來自總統的指示嗎?是誰的決策?誰決定要把這個第6條拿掉?\n\n14\n00:04:47,182 --> 00:05:13,882\n報告委員這個是我們根據臺電他實際上面做的評估所以提供給我們這個經濟部經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司其實沒有辦法讓這個三家公司都能夠走向比較好運作的情況還是保持原來的狀態才有可能做得更完善\n\n15\n00:05:15,731 --> 00:05:22,649\n所以是台電找經濟部,經濟部基本上同意了對不對?那你們是不是打臉前朝政府?那前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢?\n\n16\n00:05:23,359 --> 00:05:49,696\n我們必須要與時俱進,我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛,對不對,所以我們與時俱進,然後我們提出來,那請大院所有的委員來討論,好,院長,我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性的,因為概念上來講,本席向主張,面對問題才是解決問題的第一步,那我現在要正式請教你,這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理?\n\n17\n00:05:51,291 --> 00:06:00,215\n大的戰略就是展綠蒸汽減煤到非核這大的戰略其中任何一個要隨時式來調整的那種戰術性的問題\n\n18\n00:06:02,496 --> 00:06:25,155\n主管單位都必須拿出來討論所以剛剛委員講這個討論目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來在主管部分在討論的過程當中他一定收集更多那到這裡來我們還有政委還有院會會做多重的考慮你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼對於政策的影響對於台電財政的影響是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:25,782 --> 00:06:27,143\n臺電是一個絆腳石,他們說財務不透明,問題一大堆對不對?\n\n20\n00:06:47,573 --> 00:07:06,650\n關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場讓很多人用競爭的方式避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價短購的方式來處理對不對所以台電才必須要整理必須要重整對不對那你今天現在看起來修法的方向看起來是開倒車\n\n21\n00:07:07,691 --> 00:07:09,252\n那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的\n\n22\n00:07:23,458 --> 00:07:34,892\n後來到現在我們有新的命題也就是說2020年以後零碳是全球的共識所以我們就要來調整\n\n23\n00:07:38,376 --> 00:07:57,691\n照你這樣講,零碳是優勢趨勢對不對?所以相對來講,綠電未來發展政府的輔助的比例要越來越低,因為大家都搶著做對不對?那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啦?綠電當初的規劃我們到2030年的時候,希望能夠滿足所有的出國的廠商,他需要綠電的廠商,我們都能夠滿足他們。\n\n24\n00:07:58,629 --> 00:08:14,254\n部長這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦我先跟你講這幾件事情第一個對於產業的影響本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場希望來共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候他有心理預期也就是過了幾年之後我的市場會越來越自由會透過競爭的方式變成一個正常的市場\n\n25\n00:08:15,234 --> 00:08:29,912\n可是這6年來用高價短購的方式你先走這個本行沒有意見可是你先走之後這些先佔的產業把好處都佔光了然後你現在好處佔光他們領走了高額的補助之後你現在講說好我們在市場正常化的角度我們不做了回歸舊制\n\n26\n00:08:31,033 --> 00:08:55,725\n那請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎?這是對於你未來更多的產業投入可能造成的衝擊。再來我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力啊。我們講說自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力對不對?當然你講台電有員工的問題啊、有拆分、有債務的問題本身都了解,我也沒有要拆台電的台的意思,但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情之後可能的後果會是什麼?\n\n27\n00:08:56,665 --> 00:09:01,996\n後果是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的佔比繼續增加投資的時候,你還有哪樣的工具啊?\n\n28\n00:09:02,984 --> 00:09:26,895\n我們接下來就是本席要談的阿我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地我們要用短購電價的方式來處理當然也被大家這個批評對不對當初大家批評短購電價很高用了很多納稅錢的時候你們講未來這是個過渡未來台電會自由化等等公民電廠通通跑出來之後成本就會下降因為他會競爭現在前提條件消失了你的短購機制會退場還是不會退場\n\n29\n00:09:30,433 --> 00:09:34,357\n委員長這個是比較大的事情你們有沒有討論過這樣的事情?準告現在不存在\n\n30\n00:09:38,769 --> 00:09:57,276\n怎麼會沒有存在?新的部份是不存在的部長我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題離岸風電是下一段但是短購怎麼會不存在呢?你每一年台電都有報告就看這張圖表就好您說的是光電的部份對啊光電啊現在從2019年開始你的短購支出是248.8億然後2020353億2021年426億2022年588億到了2023年905億\n\n31\n00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:36,579\n這是不是一個可觀的成長?誰買單?準夠的價格是往下走的哪有往下走你看折線圖平均購價從一度4.26到了2023的資料是5.20這是台電的公開資料部長你可以再確認一下那我想請問院長跟部長2024馬上要到年底啦今年它是上升還是下降?這個當然台電要再評估它現在的發電用電跟這些業者之間的狀況那我們現在需求的是因為我們將來\n\n32\n00:10:37,847 --> 00:10:39,809\n你預期未來這個總額的支出跟平均的價格是會上升還是會下降?\n\n33\n00:10:55,567 --> 00:11:13,013\n這個要再經過計算。我是當然希望能夠越穩定越好。我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現上來看,它是看不到任何下降的可能。這就回到了大家關鍵的題目。您所看到的是因為這個用電需求成長。當然,你光電的數量也成長嘛。所以總而會成長,對不對?\n\n34\n00:11:15,273 --> 00:11:35,500\n那我的意思是講你的總額會成長但是你的市場不改變這些業者是不是繼續依賴所謂的政府賺購那你台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大這就是我講你這些東西政策你講你要有空間可是修正之後它是會有副作用或是有後果的對不對?報告委員我們未來的綠電銷售我們是分倉制度\n\n35\n00:11:36,380 --> 00:12:03,890\n所以需要綠電的,他可以購買更高的這個綠電。那麼一般我們國內的廠商,你都要預估的時候,我本來想問你幾年之後他會開始往下走,進入一個正常的機制,看起來也是回答不出來。因為最終他必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的一個交易平台,這個平台就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。\n\n36\n00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:30,300\n我現在接下來講現在財務負擔是節節上升我接下來講離岸豐電剛剛部長有講離岸豐電就沒有短購對不對那我們就把離岸豐電的帳來算一算離岸豐電分三期第一期示範豐廠第二期潛力廠子當初為了推廣所以你先短購當初被大家罵爆嘛一度7塊就是從這個地方來的對不對你說第三期開始我們沒短購了開始進入市場機制對不對市場機制出問題啦三之一標都標出去了很多行政契約不簽了\n\n37\n00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:45,647\n因為開始好難喔做不下去了成本好高算不過來我也不見得找得到對不對你們剛剛講說企業都要用電2030都要用電對不對可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候果汁不淺說我店可能賣不掉政府要幫忙為什麼\n\n38\n00:12:48,018 --> 00:13:08,630\n有沒有這樣的事?先說有沒有這樣的事?應該有吧?我跟委員報告,三之一他跟政府之間是有合約的,所以我們會按照彼此之間的合約,我們會承諾讓他走下去。然後我們會幫助他,剛才您所知道的,他因為跟他的財務的關係,他得不到銀行的...\n\n39\n00:13:11,351 --> 00:13:38,920\n院長我今天時間有限阿,你今天講說我會輔導為什麼?但是你實際上你政府在準備什麼?你是不是要把中鋼拉進來?搞一個基金弄個公司然後一樣搞保駕收購只是他帳不掛在台電掛在別的地方那請問這是不是變相懟購?對不對?要出現一個問題所以三之一期的最大問題叫關不保收阿你所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做為什麼?因為其實你們剛剛也都提了我綠電要把比例拉上來對不對?我要滿足供電的需求\n\n40\n00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:52,810\n那你因為這樣然後你的政策被裹挾政府是標案的業主捏標案的業主開具力之後然後這個得標廠商做不到你不但沒有制裁他沒有處理他你還要輔導他拯救他改變規則這樣對嗎\n\n41\n00:13:55,593 --> 00:14:10,853\n委員我們這個目的是讓那個電費他的成本可以下降所以我們輔導所有的廠商解決他的問題主要的目的是讓他售電的價格成本可以往下走這個是我們最大的不一樣\n\n42\n00:14:11,254 --> 00:14:27,421\n你搞了保,三之一你打算搞保駕收購,你就一樣是乾坤大挪移對不對,國發基金又要來了,聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係,中鋼再搞一次,我是擔心到最後又是,都是納稅人的錢,只是不同的名為。三之二,我還有,我還有,我還有講話,三之二,國產化出問題啦,結果我們打算要放寬,因為WTO等等的訴訟,我就問,我就問,你當初設計這一套,豐電短購帶國產的標準,是對的還是錯的?\n\n43\n00:14:42,656 --> 00:15:03,153\n國內產業能夠上來接手這個方向絕對是對的方向是對的但是政策是錯的對不對因為你的標準不對吧國內的廠商確實是有些進展得很快的現在所有的推動都被列出目前時空的變化太快我們不可能用一種策略然後可以執行的好幾十年\n\n44\n00:15:04,033 --> 00:15:31,909\n現在的科技這麼進步嘛所以我們在外部的環境的改變太大了你剛剛這樣一路這樣聽過來喔這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上離岸風電這個給出了錯誤的標準其實原因就是能源結構就是個錯誤的目標所以你整套再生能源的規劃建立在錯誤的邏輯之上錯上加錯是全民要買單啦我要提醒院長我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程當中但是你的出發點都非常的正確\n\n45\n00:15:57,291 --> 00:15:57,492\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4753\t17200\t主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長\n32365\t44152\t今天大部分的委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題,這本席也不例外,特別點一下稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候講說台南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了\n45066\t71255\t那我必須要講我是桃園選出來的民意代表我桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊我要提醒一下兩位這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的很有可能會導致區域的對立但我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了那我們當然要站在選民這一邊所以未來我們的這個民營電廠的同意的興建本席是愛南同意但這些事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教\n71855\t86432\t但這個指出了一個大的問題也就是說我們的能源政策顯然是亂七八糟而且後遺症頻傳現在正在發生不管是電廠的擴建遭致民怨或者是電價的上漲等等都是能源政策的後遺症\n86812\t116155\t今天我們要把話說說清楚因為人民的知情權是很重要的能源政策會影響產業發展影響環境品質影響民生影響物價因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向但是人民有權力知道走向跟邏輯而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相剛剛院長回答這個李燕秀委員的質詢的時候曾經有講能源政策都會合理的延續他問你蔡政府的政策你會不會延續\n116775\t145449\t你說都會延續對不對?我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進,該發展更快的我們絕對不會怠慢。真的嗎?以前慢下來的我們希望把它補上來。你真的有延續嗎?我再給你一次機會。我們希望延續,但是... 別希望延續。院長,你知不知道電業法最近公告的修正,修正的差異是什麼?你知不知道?委員請他講哪一個重點告訴我們。電業法修正最大...部長要不要救援一下?電業法修正最大的重點是什麼?\n145899\t173217\t就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整這兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗電業法修正最大的差異不再是電價這些問題這是肢解最大的核心的問題是改變了2016修正版本之後一個重要的決策叫做台電拆分我這樣提示之後你們有印象嗎2016年的電業法要求能源勝車的規劃跟走向是什麼\n174148\t188522\t報告委員那個時候我還沒有進來沒有進來這個行政院對你現在要修嘛表示你要修舊的對不對最近除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外上一次是2016年修的這最大的差異是什麼\n189835\t204416\t兩位不知道,很可怕,沒關係,我來跟兩位說分明。第二把修正最關鍵的就是要把第六條拿掉。曾經啊,這我們講說為了要扶植綠電,為了要打造一個健康的環境,民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊。\n205597\t232864\t財務不透明做事不效率還有長電等等亂七八糟必須要改革必須要整頓所以搞出一個電業法的版本這個電業法的版本告訴大家6年之後還一定要分拆等於走向民營化的路把這個發書配跟售拆分對不對有一個這樣子重要的指導綱領在這個地方對不對好2024馬上公佈要進入修正的電業法裡面這條刪除了\n233764\t240911\t這是重大的政策轉變吧,院長,是嗎?是的。是對不對?那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎?\n242864\t270462\t政策的延續它不一定是一成不變的,我們現在面對很多的事情,就是在整個大的能源架構底下,我們從蒸汽、展綠到多元到核,這個都一定是照著程序走的,但內容是可以調整的,時程也是可以彈性的。大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題,我今天就先不談配比的問題,但我談別的,比如說電液法修正就是一個很好的題目,你剛剛講說會延續又說要修正,這其實是矛盾的概念,我先問,這個電液法的修正誰的決策?\n273605\t279929\t是院長您的決策,比如行政院開會決議的結果,還是說郭部長提出來的想法,還是就是現在你們還有這個氣候變遷委員會對不對,經濟發展相關的委員會,來自總統的指示嗎?是誰的決策?誰決定要把這個第6條拿掉?\n287182\t313882\t報告委員這個是我們根據臺電他實際上面做的評估所以提供給我們這個經濟部經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司其實沒有辦法讓這個三家公司都能夠走向比較好運作的情況還是保持原來的狀態才有可能做得更完善\n315731\t322649\t所以是台電找經濟部,經濟部基本上同意了對不對?那你們是不是打臉前朝政府?那前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢?\n323359\t349696\t我們必須要與時俱進,我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛,對不對,所以我們與時俱進,然後我們提出來,那請大院所有的委員來討論,好,院長,我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性的,因為概念上來講,本席向主張,面對問題才是解決問題的第一步,那我現在要正式請教你,這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理?\n351291\t360215\t大的戰略就是展綠蒸汽減煤到非核這大的戰略其中任何一個要隨時式來調整的那種戰術性的問題\n362496\t385155\t主管單位都必須拿出來討論所以剛剛委員講這個討論目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來在主管部分在討論的過程當中他一定收集更多那到這裡來我們還有政委還有院會會做多重的考慮你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼對於政策的影響對於台電財政的影響是什麼\n385782\t387143\t臺電是一個絆腳石,他們說財務不透明,問題一大堆對不對?\n407573\t426650\t關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場讓很多人用競爭的方式避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價短購的方式來處理對不對所以台電才必須要整理必須要重整對不對那你今天現在看起來修法的方向看起來是開倒車\n427691\t429252\t那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的\n443458\t454892\t後來到現在我們有新的命題也就是說2020年以後零碳是全球的共識所以我們就要來調整\n458376\t477691\t照你這樣講,零碳是優勢趨勢對不對?所以相對來講,綠電未來發展政府的輔助的比例要越來越低,因為大家都搶著做對不對?那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啦?綠電當初的規劃我們到2030年的時候,希望能夠滿足所有的出國的廠商,他需要綠電的廠商,我們都能夠滿足他們。\n478629\t494254\t部長這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦我先跟你講這幾件事情第一個對於產業的影響本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場希望來共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候他有心理預期也就是過了幾年之後我的市場會越來越自由會透過競爭的方式變成一個正常的市場\n495234\t509912\t可是這6年來用高價短購的方式你先走這個本行沒有意見可是你先走之後這些先佔的產業把好處都佔光了然後你現在好處佔光他們領走了高額的補助之後你現在講說好我們在市場正常化的角度我們不做了回歸舊制\n511033\t535725\t那請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎?這是對於你未來更多的產業投入可能造成的衝擊。再來我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力啊。我們講說自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力對不對?當然你講台電有員工的問題啊、有拆分、有債務的問題本身都了解,我也沒有要拆台電的台的意思,但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情之後可能的後果會是什麼?\n536665\t541996\t後果是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的佔比繼續增加投資的時候,你還有哪樣的工具啊?\n542984\t566895\t我們接下來就是本席要談的阿我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地我們要用短購電價的方式來處理當然也被大家這個批評對不對當初大家批評短購電價很高用了很多納稅錢的時候你們講未來這是個過渡未來台電會自由化等等公民電廠通通跑出來之後成本就會下降因為他會競爭現在前提條件消失了你的短購機制會退場還是不會退場\n570433\t574357\t委員長 這個是比較大的事情 你們有沒有討論過這樣的事情?準告現在不存在\n578769\t597276\t怎麼會沒有存在?新的部份是不存在的部長我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題離岸風電是下一段但是短購怎麼會不存在呢?你每一年台電都有報告就看這張圖表就好您說的是光電的部份對啊光電啊現在從2019年開始你的短購支出是248.8億然後2020 353億2021年426億2022年588億到了2023年905億\n608460\t636579\t這是不是一個可觀的成長?誰買單?準夠的價格是往下走的哪有往下走你看折線圖平均購價從一度4.26到了2023的資料是5.20這是台電的公開資料部長你可以再確認一下那我想請問院長跟部長2024馬上要到年底啦今年它是上升還是下降?這個當然台電要再評估它現在的發電用電跟這些業者之間的狀況那我們現在需求的是因為我們將來\n637847\t639809\t你預期未來這個總額的支出跟平均的價格是會上升還是會下降?\n655567\t673013\t這個要再經過計算。我是當然希望能夠越穩定越好。我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現上來看,它是看不到任何下降的可能。這就回到了大家關鍵的題目。您所看到的是因為這個用電需求成長。當然,你光電的數量也成長嘛。所以總而會成長,對不對?\n675273\t695500\t那我的意思是講你的總額會成長但是你的市場不改變這些業者是不是繼續依賴所謂的政府賺購那你台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大這就是我講你這些東西政策你講你要有空間可是修正之後它是會有副作用或是有後果的對不對?報告委員我們未來的綠電銷售我們是分倉制度\n696380\t723890\t所以需要綠電的,他可以購買更高的這個綠電。 那麼一般我們國內的廠商,你都要預估的時候,我本來想問你幾年之後他會開始往下走,進入一個正常的機制,看起來也是回答不出來。因為最終他必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的一個交易平台,這個平台就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。\n724790\t750300\t我現在接下來講現在財務負擔是節節上升我接下來講離岸豐電剛剛部長有講離岸豐電就沒有短購對不對那我們就把離岸豐電的帳來算一算離岸豐電分三期第一期示範豐廠第二期潛力廠子當初為了推廣所以你先短購當初被大家罵爆嘛一度7塊就是從這個地方來的對不對你說第三期開始我們沒短購了開始進入市場機制對不對市場機制出問題啦三之一標都標出去了很多行政契約不簽了\n751320\t765647\t因為開始好難喔做不下去了成本好高算不過來我也不見得找得到對不對你們剛剛講說企業都要用電2030都要用電對不對可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候果汁不淺說我店可能賣不掉政府要幫忙為什麼\n768018\t788630\t有沒有這樣的事?先說有沒有這樣的事?應該有吧?我跟委員報告,三之一他跟政府之間是有合約的,所以我們會按照彼此之間的合約,我們會承諾讓他走下去。然後我們會幫助他,剛才您所知道的,他因為跟他的財務的關係,他得不到銀行的...\n791351\t818920\t院長我今天時間有限阿,你今天講說我會輔導為什麼?但是你實際上你政府在準備什麼?你是不是要把中鋼拉進來?搞一個基金弄個公司然後一樣搞保駕收購只是他帳不掛在台電掛在別的地方那請問這是不是變相懟購?對不對?要出現一個問題所以三之一期的最大問題叫關不保收阿你所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做為什麼?因為其實你們剛剛也都提了我綠電要把比例拉上來對不對?我要滿足供電的需求\n819560\t832810\t那你因為這樣然後你的政策被裹挾政府是標案的業主捏標案的業主開具力之後然後這個得標廠商做不到你不但沒有制裁他沒有處理他你還要輔導他拯救他改變規則這樣對嗎\n835593\t850853\t委員我們這個目的是讓那個電費他的成本可以下降所以我們輔導所有的廠商解決他的問題主要的目的是讓他售電的價格成本可以往下走這個是我們最大的不一樣\n851254\t867421\t你搞了保,三之一你打算搞保駕收購,你就一樣是乾坤大挪移對不對,國發基金又要來了,聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係,中鋼再搞一次,我是擔心到最後又是,都是納稅人的錢,只是不同的名為。 三之二,我還有,我還有,我還有講話,三之二,國產化出問題啦,結果我們打算要放寬,因為WTO等等的訴訟,我就問,我就問,你當初設計這一套,豐電短購帶國產的標準,是對的還是錯的?\n882656\t903153\t國內產業能夠上來接手 這個方向絕對是對的方向是對的 但是政策是錯的對不對 因為你的標準不對吧國內的廠商確實是有些進展得很快的現在所有的推動都被列出目前時空的變化太快我們不可能用一種策略 然後可以執行的好幾十年\n904033\t931909\t現在的科技這麼進步嘛所以我們在外部的環境的改變太大了你剛剛這樣一路這樣聽過來喔這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上離岸風電這個給出了錯誤的標準其實原因就是能源結構就是個錯誤的目標所以你整套再生能源的規劃建立在錯誤的邏輯之上錯上加錯是全民要買單啦我要提醒院長我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程當中但是你的出發點都非常的正確\n957291\t957492\t主席\n","txt":"主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長\n今天大部分的委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題,這本席也不例外,特別點一下稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候講說台南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了\n那我必須要講我是桃園選出來的民意代表我桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊我要提醒一下兩位這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的很有可能會導致區域的對立但我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了那我們當然要站在選民這一邊所以未來我們的這個民營電廠的同意的興建本席是愛南同意但這些事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教\n但這個指出了一個大的問題也就是說我們的能源政策顯然是亂七八糟而且後遺症頻傳現在正在發生不管是電廠的擴建遭致民怨或者是電價的上漲等等都是能源政策的後遺症\n今天我們要把話說說清楚因為人民的知情權是很重要的能源政策會影響產業發展影響環境品質影響民生影響物價因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向但是人民有權力知道走向跟邏輯而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相剛剛院長回答這個李燕秀委員的質詢的時候曾經有講能源政策都會合理的延續他問你蔡政府的政策你會不會延續\n你說都會延續對不對?我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進,該發展更快的我們絕對不會怠慢。真的嗎?以前慢下來的我們希望把它補上來。你真的有延續嗎?我再給你一次機會。我們希望延續,但是... 別希望延續。院長,你知不知道電業法最近公告的修正,修正的差異是什麼?你知不知道?委員請他講哪一個重點告訴我們。電業法修正最大...部長要不要救援一下?電業法修正最大的重點是什麼?\n就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整這兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗電業法修正最大的差異不再是電價這些問題這是肢解最大的核心的問題是改變了2016修正版本之後一個重要的決策叫做台電拆分我這樣提示之後你們有印象嗎2016年的電業法要求能源勝車的規劃跟走向是什麼\n報告委員那個時候我還沒有進來沒有進來這個行政院對你現在要修嘛表示你要修舊的對不對最近除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外上一次是2016年修的這最大的差異是什麼\n兩位不知道,很可怕,沒關係,我來跟兩位說分明。第二把修正最關鍵的就是要把第六條拿掉。曾經啊,這我們講說為了要扶植綠電,為了要打造一個健康的環境,民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊。\n財務不透明做事不效率還有長電等等亂七八糟必須要改革必須要整頓所以搞出一個電業法的版本這個電業法的版本告訴大家6年之後還一定要分拆等於走向民營化的路把這個發書配跟售拆分對不對有一個這樣子重要的指導綱領在這個地方對不對好2024馬上公佈要進入修正的電業法裡面這條刪除了\n這是重大的政策轉變吧,院長,是嗎?是的。是對不對?那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎?\n政策的延續它不一定是一成不變的,我們現在面對很多的事情,就是在整個大的能源架構底下,我們從蒸汽、展綠到多元到核,這個都一定是照著程序走的,但內容是可以調整的,時程也是可以彈性的。大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題,我今天就先不談配比的問題,但我談別的,比如說電液法修正就是一個很好的題目,你剛剛講說會延續又說要修正,這其實是矛盾的概念,我先問,這個電液法的修正誰的決策?\n是院長您的決策,比如行政院開會決議的結果,還是說郭部長提出來的想法,還是就是現在你們還有這個氣候變遷委員會對不對,經濟發展相關的委員會,來自總統的指示嗎?是誰的決策?誰決定要把這個第6條拿掉?\n報告委員這個是我們根據臺電他實際上面做的評估所以提供給我們這個經濟部經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司其實沒有辦法讓這個三家公司都能夠走向比較好運作的情況還是保持原來的狀態才有可能做得更完善\n所以是台電找經濟部,經濟部基本上同意了對不對?那你們是不是打臉前朝政府?那前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢?\n我們必須要與時俱進,我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛,對不對,所以我們與時俱進,然後我們提出來,那請大院所有的委員來討論,好,院長,我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性的,因為概念上來講,本席向主張,面對問題才是解決問題的第一步,那我現在要正式請教你,這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理?\n大的戰略就是展綠蒸汽減煤到非核這大的戰略其中任何一個要隨時式來調整的那種戰術性的問題\n主管單位都必須拿出來討論所以剛剛委員講這個討論目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來在主管部分在討論的過程當中他一定收集更多那到這裡來我們還有政委還有院會會做多重的考慮你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼對於政策的影響對於台電財政的影響是什麼\n臺電是一個絆腳石,他們說財務不透明,問題一大堆對不對?\n關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場讓很多人用競爭的方式避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價短購的方式來處理對不對所以台電才必須要整理必須要重整對不對那你今天現在看起來修法的方向看起來是開倒車\n那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的\n後來到現在我們有新的命題也就是說2020年以後零碳是全球的共識所以我們就要來調整\n照你這樣講,零碳是優勢趨勢對不對?所以相對來講,綠電未來發展政府的輔助的比例要越來越低,因為大家都搶著做對不對?那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啦?綠電當初的規劃我們到2030年的時候,希望能夠滿足所有的出國的廠商,他需要綠電的廠商,我們都能夠滿足他們。\n部長這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦我先跟你講這幾件事情第一個對於產業的影響本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場希望來共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候他有心理預期也就是過了幾年之後我的市場會越來越自由會透過競爭的方式變成一個正常的市場\n可是這6年來用高價短購的方式你先走這個本行沒有意見可是你先走之後這些先佔的產業把好處都佔光了然後你現在好處佔光他們領走了高額的補助之後你現在講說好我們在市場正常化的角度我們不做了回歸舊制\n那請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎?這是對於你未來更多的產業投入可能造成的衝擊。再來我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力啊。我們講說自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力對不對?當然你講台電有員工的問題啊、有拆分、有債務的問題本身都了解,我也沒有要拆台電的台的意思,但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情之後可能的後果會是什麼?\n後果是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的佔比繼續增加投資的時候,你還有哪樣的工具啊?\n我們接下來就是本席要談的阿我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地我們要用短購電價的方式來處理當然也被大家這個批評對不對當初大家批評短購電價很高用了很多納稅錢的時候你們講未來這是個過渡未來台電會自由化等等公民電廠通通跑出來之後成本就會下降因為他會競爭現在前提條件消失了你的短購機制會退場還是不會退場\n委員長 這個是比較大的事情 你們有沒有討論過這樣的事情?準告現在不存在\n怎麼會沒有存在?新的部份是不存在的部長我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題離岸風電是下一段但是短購怎麼會不存在呢?你每一年台電都有報告就看這張圖表就好您說的是光電的部份對啊光電啊現在從2019年開始你的短購支出是248.8億然後2020 353億2021年426億2022年588億到了2023年905億\n這是不是一個可觀的成長?誰買單?準夠的價格是往下走的哪有往下走你看折線圖平均購價從一度4.26到了2023的資料是5.20這是台電的公開資料部長你可以再確認一下那我想請問院長跟部長2024馬上要到年底啦今年它是上升還是下降?這個當然台電要再評估它現在的發電用電跟這些業者之間的狀況那我們現在需求的是因為我們將來\n你預期未來這個總額的支出跟平均的價格是會上升還是會下降?\n這個要再經過計算。我是當然希望能夠越穩定越好。我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現上來看,它是看不到任何下降的可能。這就回到了大家關鍵的題目。您所看到的是因為這個用電需求成長。當然,你光電的數量也成長嘛。所以總而會成長,對不對?\n那我的意思是講你的總額會成長但是你的市場不改變這些業者是不是繼續依賴所謂的政府賺購那你台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大這就是我講你這些東西政策你講你要有空間可是修正之後它是會有副作用或是有後果的對不對?報告委員我們未來的綠電銷售我們是分倉制度\n所以需要綠電的,他可以購買更高的這個綠電。 那麼一般我們國內的廠商,你都要預估的時候,我本來想問你幾年之後他會開始往下走,進入一個正常的機制,看起來也是回答不出來。因為最終他必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的一個交易平台,這個平台就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。\n我現在接下來講現在財務負擔是節節上升我接下來講離岸豐電剛剛部長有講離岸豐電就沒有短購對不對那我們就把離岸豐電的帳來算一算離岸豐電分三期第一期示範豐廠第二期潛力廠子當初為了推廣所以你先短購當初被大家罵爆嘛一度7塊就是從這個地方來的對不對你說第三期開始我們沒短購了開始進入市場機制對不對市場機制出問題啦三之一標都標出去了很多行政契約不簽了\n因為開始好難喔做不下去了成本好高算不過來我也不見得找得到對不對你們剛剛講說企業都要用電2030都要用電對不對可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候果汁不淺說我店可能賣不掉政府要幫忙為什麼\n有沒有這樣的事?先說有沒有這樣的事?應該有吧?我跟委員報告,三之一他跟政府之間是有合約的,所以我們會按照彼此之間的合約,我們會承諾讓他走下去。然後我們會幫助他,剛才您所知道的,他因為跟他的財務的關係,他得不到銀行的...\n院長我今天時間有限阿,你今天講說我會輔導為什麼?但是你實際上你政府在準備什麼?你是不是要把中鋼拉進來?搞一個基金弄個公司然後一樣搞保駕收購只是他帳不掛在台電掛在別的地方那請問這是不是變相懟購?對不對?要出現一個問題所以三之一期的最大問題叫關不保收阿你所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做為什麼?因為其實你們剛剛也都提了我綠電要把比例拉上來對不對?我要滿足供電的需求\n那你因為這樣然後你的政策被裹挾政府是標案的業主捏標案的業主開具力之後然後這個得標廠商做不到你不但沒有制裁他沒有處理他你還要輔導他拯救他改變規則這樣對嗎\n委員我們這個目的是讓那個電費他的成本可以下降所以我們輔導所有的廠商解決他的問題主要的目的是讓他售電的價格成本可以往下走這個是我們最大的不一樣\n你搞了保,三之一你打算搞保駕收購,你就一樣是乾坤大挪移對不對,國發基金又要來了,聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係,中鋼再搞一次,我是擔心到最後又是,都是納稅人的錢,只是不同的名為。 三之二,我還有,我還有,我還有講話,三之二,國產化出問題啦,結果我們打算要放寬,因為WTO等等的訴訟,我就問,我就問,你當初設計這一套,豐電短購帶國產的標準,是對的還是錯的?\n國內產業能夠上來接手 這個方向絕對是對的方向是對的 但是政策是錯的對不對 因為你的標準不對吧國內的廠商確實是有些進展得很快的現在所有的推動都被列出目前時空的變化太快我們不可能用一種策略 然後可以執行的好幾十年\n現在的科技這麼進步嘛所以我們在外部的環境的改變太大了你剛剛這樣一路這樣聽過來喔這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上離岸風電這個給出了錯誤的標準其實原因就是能源結構就是個錯誤的目標所以你整套再生能源的規劃建立在錯誤的邏輯之上錯上加錯是全民要買單啦我要提醒院長我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程當中但是你的出發點都非常的正確\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.753 --> 00:17.200\n主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長\n\n00:32.365 --> 00:44.152\n今天大部分的委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題,這本席也不例外,特別點一下稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候講說台南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了\n\n00:45.066 --> 01:11.255\n那我必須要講我是桃園選出來的民意代表我桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊我要提醒一下兩位這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的很有可能會導致區域的對立但我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了那我們當然要站在選民這一邊所以未來我們的這個民營電廠的同意的興建本席是愛南同意但這些事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教\n\n01:11.855 --> 01:26.432\n但這個指出了一個大的問題也就是說我們的能源政策顯然是亂七八糟而且後遺症頻傳現在正在發生不管是電廠的擴建遭致民怨或者是電價的上漲等等都是能源政策的後遺症\n\n01:26.812 --> 01:56.155\n今天我們要把話說說清楚因為人民的知情權是很重要的能源政策會影響產業發展影響環境品質影響民生影響物價因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向但是人民有權力知道走向跟邏輯而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相剛剛院長回答這個李燕秀委員的質詢的時候曾經有講能源政策都會合理的延續他問你蔡政府的政策你會不會延續\n\n01:56.775 --> 02:25.449\n你說都會延續對不對?我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進,該發展更快的我們絕對不會怠慢。真的嗎?以前慢下來的我們希望把它補上來。你真的有延續嗎?我再給你一次機會。我們希望延續,但是...別希望延續。院長,你知不知道電業法最近公告的修正,修正的差異是什麼?你知不知道?委員請他講哪一個重點告訴我們。電業法修正最大...部長要不要救援一下?電業法修正最大的重點是什麼?\n\n02:25.899 --> 02:53.217\n就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整這兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗電業法修正最大的差異不再是電價這些問題這是肢解最大的核心的問題是改變了2016修正版本之後一個重要的決策叫做台電拆分我這樣提示之後你們有印象嗎2016年的電業法要求能源勝車的規劃跟走向是什麼\n\n02:54.148 --> 03:08.522\n報告委員那個時候我還沒有進來沒有進來這個行政院對你現在要修嘛表示你要修舊的對不對最近除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外上一次是2016年修的這最大的差異是什麼\n\n03:09.835 --> 03:24.416\n兩位不知道,很可怕,沒關係,我來跟兩位說分明。第二把修正最關鍵的就是要把第六條拿掉。曾經啊,這我們講說為了要扶植綠電,為了要打造一個健康的環境,民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊。\n\n03:25.597 --> 03:52.864\n財務不透明做事不效率還有長電等等亂七八糟必須要改革必須要整頓所以搞出一個電業法的版本這個電業法的版本告訴大家6年之後還一定要分拆等於走向民營化的路把這個發書配跟售拆分對不對有一個這樣子重要的指導綱領在這個地方對不對好2024馬上公佈要進入修正的電業法裡面這條刪除了\n\n03:53.764 --> 04:00.911\n這是重大的政策轉變吧,院長,是嗎?是的。是對不對?那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎?\n\n04:02.864 --> 04:30.462\n政策的延續它不一定是一成不變的,我們現在面對很多的事情,就是在整個大的能源架構底下,我們從蒸汽、展綠到多元到核,這個都一定是照著程序走的,但內容是可以調整的,時程也是可以彈性的。大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題,我今天就先不談配比的問題,但我談別的,比如說電液法修正就是一個很好的題目,你剛剛講說會延續又說要修正,這其實是矛盾的概念,我先問,這個電液法的修正誰的決策?\n\n04:33.605 --> 04:39.929\n是院長您的決策,比如行政院開會決議的結果,還是說郭部長提出來的想法,還是就是現在你們還有這個氣候變遷委員會對不對,經濟發展相關的委員會,來自總統的指示嗎?是誰的決策?誰決定要把這個第6條拿掉?\n\n04:47.182 --> 05:13.882\n報告委員這個是我們根據臺電他實際上面做的評估所以提供給我們這個經濟部經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司其實沒有辦法讓這個三家公司都能夠走向比較好運作的情況還是保持原來的狀態才有可能做得更完善\n\n05:15.731 --> 05:22.649\n所以是台電找經濟部,經濟部基本上同意了對不對?那你們是不是打臉前朝政府?那前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢?\n\n05:23.359 --> 05:49.696\n我們必須要與時俱進,我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛,對不對,所以我們與時俱進,然後我們提出來,那請大院所有的委員來討論,好,院長,我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性的,因為概念上來講,本席向主張,面對問題才是解決問題的第一步,那我現在要正式請教你,這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理?\n\n05:51.291 --> 06:00.215\n大的戰略就是展綠蒸汽減煤到非核這大的戰略其中任何一個要隨時式來調整的那種戰術性的問題\n\n06:02.496 --> 06:25.155\n主管單位都必須拿出來討論所以剛剛委員講這個討論目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來在主管部分在討論的過程當中他一定收集更多那到這裡來我們還有政委還有院會會做多重的考慮你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼對於政策的影響對於台電財政的影響是什麼\n\n06:25.782 --> 06:27.143\n臺電是一個絆腳石,他們說財務不透明,問題一大堆對不對?\n\n06:47.573 --> 07:06.650\n關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場讓很多人用競爭的方式避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價短購的方式來處理對不對所以台電才必須要整理必須要重整對不對那你今天現在看起來修法的方向看起來是開倒車\n\n07:07.691 --> 07:09.252\n那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的\n\n07:23.458 --> 07:34.892\n後來到現在我們有新的命題也就是說2020年以後零碳是全球的共識所以我們就要來調整\n\n07:38.376 --> 07:57.691\n照你這樣講,零碳是優勢趨勢對不對?所以相對來講,綠電未來發展政府的輔助的比例要越來越低,因為大家都搶著做對不對?那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啦?綠電當初的規劃我們到2030年的時候,希望能夠滿足所有的出國的廠商,他需要綠電的廠商,我們都能夠滿足他們。\n\n07:58.629 --> 08:14.254\n部長這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦我先跟你講這幾件事情第一個對於產業的影響本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場希望來共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候他有心理預期也就是過了幾年之後我的市場會越來越自由會透過競爭的方式變成一個正常的市場\n\n08:15.234 --> 08:29.912\n可是這6年來用高價短購的方式你先走這個本行沒有意見可是你先走之後這些先佔的產業把好處都佔光了然後你現在好處佔光他們領走了高額的補助之後你現在講說好我們在市場正常化的角度我們不做了回歸舊制\n\n08:31.033 --> 08:55.725\n那請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎?這是對於你未來更多的產業投入可能造成的衝擊。再來我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力啊。我們講說自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力對不對?當然你講台電有員工的問題啊、有拆分、有債務的問題本身都了解,我也沒有要拆台電的台的意思,但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情之後可能的後果會是什麼?\n\n08:56.665 --> 09:01.996\n後果是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的佔比繼續增加投資的時候,你還有哪樣的工具啊?\n\n09:02.984 --> 09:26.895\n我們接下來就是本席要談的阿我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地我們要用短購電價的方式來處理當然也被大家這個批評對不對當初大家批評短購電價很高用了很多納稅錢的時候你們講未來這是個過渡未來台電會自由化等等公民電廠通通跑出來之後成本就會下降因為他會競爭現在前提條件消失了你的短購機制會退場還是不會退場\n\n09:30.433 --> 09:34.357\n委員長這個是比較大的事情你們有沒有討論過這樣的事情?準告現在不存在\n\n09:38.769 --> 09:57.276\n怎麼會沒有存在?新的部份是不存在的部長我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題離岸風電是下一段但是短購怎麼會不存在呢?你每一年台電都有報告就看這張圖表就好您說的是光電的部份對啊光電啊現在從2019年開始你的短購支出是248.8億然後2020353億2021年426億2022年588億到了2023年905億\n\n10:08.460 --> 10:36.579\n這是不是一個可觀的成長?誰買單?準夠的價格是往下走的哪有往下走你看折線圖平均購價從一度4.26到了2023的資料是5.20這是台電的公開資料部長你可以再確認一下那我想請問院長跟部長2024馬上要到年底啦今年它是上升還是下降?這個當然台電要再評估它現在的發電用電跟這些業者之間的狀況那我們現在需求的是因為我們將來\n\n10:37.847 --> 10:39.809\n你預期未來這個總額的支出跟平均的價格是會上升還是會下降?\n\n10:55.567 --> 11:13.013\n這個要再經過計算。我是當然希望能夠越穩定越好。我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現上來看,它是看不到任何下降的可能。這就回到了大家關鍵的題目。您所看到的是因為這個用電需求成長。當然,你光電的數量也成長嘛。所以總而會成長,對不對?\n\n11:15.273 --> 11:35.500\n那我的意思是講你的總額會成長但是你的市場不改變這些業者是不是繼續依賴所謂的政府賺購那你台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大這就是我講你這些東西政策你講你要有空間可是修正之後它是會有副作用或是有後果的對不對?報告委員我們未來的綠電銷售我們是分倉制度\n\n11:36.380 --> 12:03.890\n所以需要綠電的,他可以購買更高的這個綠電。那麼一般我們國內的廠商,你都要預估的時候,我本來想問你幾年之後他會開始往下走,進入一個正常的機制,看起來也是回答不出來。因為最終他必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的一個交易平台,這個平台就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。\n\n12:04.790 --> 12:30.300\n我現在接下來講現在財務負擔是節節上升我接下來講離岸豐電剛剛部長有講離岸豐電就沒有短購對不對那我們就把離岸豐電的帳來算一算離岸豐電分三期第一期示範豐廠第二期潛力廠子當初為了推廣所以你先短購當初被大家罵爆嘛一度7塊就是從這個地方來的對不對你說第三期開始我們沒短購了開始進入市場機制對不對市場機制出問題啦三之一標都標出去了很多行政契約不簽了\n\n12:31.320 --> 12:45.647\n因為開始好難喔做不下去了成本好高算不過來我也不見得找得到對不對你們剛剛講說企業都要用電2030都要用電對不對可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候果汁不淺說我店可能賣不掉政府要幫忙為什麼\n\n12:48.018 --> 13:08.630\n有沒有這樣的事?先說有沒有這樣的事?應該有吧?我跟委員報告,三之一他跟政府之間是有合約的,所以我們會按照彼此之間的合約,我們會承諾讓他走下去。然後我們會幫助他,剛才您所知道的,他因為跟他的財務的關係,他得不到銀行的...\n\n13:11.351 --> 13:38.920\n院長我今天時間有限阿,你今天講說我會輔導為什麼?但是你實際上你政府在準備什麼?你是不是要把中鋼拉進來?搞一個基金弄個公司然後一樣搞保駕收購只是他帳不掛在台電掛在別的地方那請問這是不是變相懟購?對不對?要出現一個問題所以三之一期的最大問題叫關不保收阿你所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做為什麼?因為其實你們剛剛也都提了我綠電要把比例拉上來對不對?我要滿足供電的需求\n\n13:39.560 --> 13:52.810\n那你因為這樣然後你的政策被裹挾政府是標案的業主捏標案的業主開具力之後然後這個得標廠商做不到你不但沒有制裁他沒有處理他你還要輔導他拯救他改變規則這樣對嗎\n\n13:55.593 --> 14:10.853\n委員我們這個目的是讓那個電費他的成本可以下降所以我們輔導所有的廠商解決他的問題主要的目的是讓他售電的價格成本可以往下走這個是我們最大的不一樣\n\n14:11.254 --> 14:27.421\n你搞了保,三之一你打算搞保駕收購,你就一樣是乾坤大挪移對不對,國發基金又要來了,聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係,中鋼再搞一次,我是擔心到最後又是,都是納稅人的錢,只是不同的名為。三之二,我還有,我還有,我還有講話,三之二,國產化出問題啦,結果我們打算要放寬,因為WTO等等的訴訟,我就問,我就問,你當初設計這一套,豐電短購帶國產的標準,是對的還是錯的?\n\n14:42.656 --> 15:03.153\n國內產業能夠上來接手這個方向絕對是對的方向是對的但是政策是錯的對不對因為你的標準不對吧國內的廠商確實是有些進展得很快的現在所有的推動都被列出目前時空的變化太快我們不可能用一種策略然後可以執行的好幾十年\n\n15:04.033 --> 15:31.909\n現在的科技這麼進步嘛所以我們在外部的環境的改變太大了你剛剛這樣一路這樣聽過來喔這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上離岸風電這個給出了錯誤的標準其實原因就是能源結構就是個錯誤的目標所以你整套再生能源的規劃建立在錯誤的邏輯之上錯上加錯是全民要買單啦我要提醒院長我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程當中但是你的出發點都非常的正確\n\n15:57.291 --> 15:57.492\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.753,"end":17.2,"text":"主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長主席、行政院長、經濟部長"},{"start":32.365,"end":44.152,"text":"今天大部分的委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題,這本席也不例外,特別點一下稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候講說台南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了"},{"start":45.066,"end":71.255,"text":"那我必須要講我是桃園選出來的民意代表我桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊我要提醒一下兩位這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的很有可能會導致區域的對立但我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了那我們當然要站在選民這一邊所以未來我們的這個民營電廠的同意的興建本席是愛南同意但這些事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教"},{"start":71.855,"end":86.432,"text":"但這個指出了一個大的問題也就是說我們的能源政策顯然是亂七八糟而且後遺症頻傳現在正在發生不管是電廠的擴建遭致民怨或者是電價的上漲等等都是能源政策的後遺症"},{"start":86.812,"end":116.155,"text":"今天我們要把話說說清楚因為人民的知情權是很重要的能源政策會影響產業發展影響環境品質影響民生影響物價因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向但是人民有權力知道走向跟邏輯而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相剛剛院長回答這個李燕秀委員的質詢的時候曾經有講能源政策都會合理的延續他問你蔡政府的政策你會不會延續"},{"start":116.775,"end":145.449,"text":"你說都會延續對不對?我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進,該發展更快的我們絕對不會怠慢。真的嗎?以前慢下來的我們希望把它補上來。你真的有延續嗎?我再給你一次機會。我們希望延續,但是... 別希望延續。院長,你知不知道電業法最近公告的修正,修正的差異是什麼?你知不知道?委員請他講哪一個重點告訴我們。電業法修正最大...部長要不要救援一下?電業法修正最大的重點是什麼?"},{"start":145.899,"end":173.217,"text":"就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整這兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗電業法修正最大的差異不再是電價這些問題這是肢解最大的核心的問題是改變了2016修正版本之後一個重要的決策叫做台電拆分我這樣提示之後你們有印象嗎2016年的電業法要求能源勝車的規劃跟走向是什麼"},{"start":174.148,"end":188.522,"text":"報告委員那個時候我還沒有進來沒有進來這個行政院對你現在要修嘛表示你要修舊的對不對最近除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外上一次是2016年修的這最大的差異是什麼"},{"start":189.835,"end":204.416,"text":"兩位不知道,很可怕,沒關係,我來跟兩位說分明。第二把修正最關鍵的就是要把第六條拿掉。曾經啊,這我們講說為了要扶植綠電,為了要打造一個健康的環境,民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊。"},{"start":205.597,"end":232.864,"text":"財務不透明做事不效率還有長電等等亂七八糟必須要改革必須要整頓所以搞出一個電業法的版本這個電業法的版本告訴大家6年之後還一定要分拆等於走向民營化的路把這個發書配跟售拆分對不對有一個這樣子重要的指導綱領在這個地方對不對好2024馬上公佈要進入修正的電業法裡面這條刪除了"},{"start":233.764,"end":240.911,"text":"這是重大的政策轉變吧,院長,是嗎?是的。是對不對?那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎?"},{"start":242.864,"end":270.462,"text":"政策的延續它不一定是一成不變的,我們現在面對很多的事情,就是在整個大的能源架構底下,我們從蒸汽、展綠到多元到核,這個都一定是照著程序走的,但內容是可以調整的,時程也是可以彈性的。大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題,我今天就先不談配比的問題,但我談別的,比如說電液法修正就是一個很好的題目,你剛剛講說會延續又說要修正,這其實是矛盾的概念,我先問,這個電液法的修正誰的決策?"},{"start":273.605,"end":279.929,"text":"是院長您的決策,比如行政院開會決議的結果,還是說郭部長提出來的想法,還是就是現在你們還有這個氣候變遷委員會對不對,經濟發展相關的委員會,來自總統的指示嗎?是誰的決策?誰決定要把這個第6條拿掉?"},{"start":287.182,"end":313.882,"text":"報告委員這個是我們根據臺電他實際上面做的評估所以提供給我們這個經濟部經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司其實沒有辦法讓這個三家公司都能夠走向比較好運作的情況還是保持原來的狀態才有可能做得更完善"},{"start":315.731,"end":322.649,"text":"所以是台電找經濟部,經濟部基本上同意了對不對?那你們是不是打臉前朝政府?那前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢?"},{"start":323.359,"end":349.696,"text":"我們必須要與時俱進,我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛,對不對,所以我們與時俱進,然後我們提出來,那請大院所有的委員來討論,好,院長,我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性的,因為概念上來講,本席向主張,面對問題才是解決問題的第一步,那我現在要正式請教你,這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理?"},{"start":351.291,"end":360.215,"text":"大的戰略就是展綠蒸汽減煤到非核這大的戰略其中任何一個要隨時式來調整的那種戰術性的問題"},{"start":362.496,"end":385.155,"text":"主管單位都必須拿出來討論所以剛剛委員講這個討論目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來在主管部分在討論的過程當中他一定收集更多那到這裡來我們還有政委還有院會會做多重的考慮你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼對於政策的影響對於台電財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":385.782,"end":387.143,"text":"臺電是一個絆腳石,他們說財務不透明,問題一大堆對不對?"},{"start":407.573,"end":426.65,"text":"關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場讓很多人用競爭的方式避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價短購的方式來處理對不對所以台電才必須要整理必須要重整對不對那你今天現在看起來修法的方向看起來是開倒車"},{"start":427.691,"end":429.252,"text":"那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的"},{"start":443.458,"end":454.892,"text":"後來到現在我們有新的命題也就是說2020年以後零碳是全球的共識所以我們就要來調整"},{"start":458.376,"end":477.691,"text":"照你這樣講,零碳是優勢趨勢對不對?所以相對來講,綠電未來發展政府的輔助的比例要越來越低,因為大家都搶著做對不對?那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啦?綠電當初的規劃我們到2030年的時候,希望能夠滿足所有的出國的廠商,他需要綠電的廠商,我們都能夠滿足他們。"},{"start":478.629,"end":494.254,"text":"部長這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦我先跟你講這幾件事情第一個對於產業的影響本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場希望來共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候他有心理預期也就是過了幾年之後我的市場會越來越自由會透過競爭的方式變成一個正常的市場"},{"start":495.234,"end":509.912,"text":"可是這6年來用高價短購的方式你先走這個本行沒有意見可是你先走之後這些先佔的產業把好處都佔光了然後你現在好處佔光他們領走了高額的補助之後你現在講說好我們在市場正常化的角度我們不做了回歸舊制"},{"start":511.033,"end":535.725,"text":"那請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎?這是對於你未來更多的產業投入可能造成的衝擊。再來我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力啊。我們講說自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力對不對?當然你講台電有員工的問題啊、有拆分、有債務的問題本身都了解,我也沒有要拆台電的台的意思,但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情之後可能的後果會是什麼?"},{"start":536.665,"end":541.996,"text":"後果是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的佔比繼續增加投資的時候,你還有哪樣的工具啊?"},{"start":542.984,"end":566.895,"text":"我們接下來就是本席要談的阿我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地我們要用短購電價的方式來處理當然也被大家這個批評對不對當初大家批評短購電價很高用了很多納稅錢的時候你們講未來這是個過渡未來台電會自由化等等公民電廠通通跑出來之後成本就會下降因為他會競爭現在前提條件消失了你的短購機制會退場還是不會退場"},{"start":570.433,"end":574.357,"text":"委員長 這個是比較大的事情 你們有沒有討論過這樣的事情?準告現在不存在"},{"start":578.769,"end":597.276,"text":"怎麼會沒有存在?新的部份是不存在的部長我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題離岸風電是下一段但是短購怎麼會不存在呢?你每一年台電都有報告就看這張圖表就好您說的是光電的部份對啊光電啊現在從2019年開始你的短購支出是248.8億然後2020 353億2021年426億2022年588億到了2023年905億"},{"start":608.46,"end":636.579,"text":"這是不是一個可觀的成長?誰買單?準夠的價格是往下走的哪有往下走你看折線圖平均購價從一度4.26到了2023的資料是5.20這是台電的公開資料部長你可以再確認一下那我想請問院長跟部長2024馬上要到年底啦今年它是上升還是下降?這個當然台電要再評估它現在的發電用電跟這些業者之間的狀況那我們現在需求的是因為我們將來"},{"start":637.847,"end":639.809,"text":"你預期未來這個總額的支出跟平均的價格是會上升還是會下降?"},{"start":655.567,"end":673.013,"text":"這個要再經過計算。我是當然希望能夠越穩定越好。我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現上來看,它是看不到任何下降的可能。這就回到了大家關鍵的題目。您所看到的是因為這個用電需求成長。當然,你光電的數量也成長嘛。所以總而會成長,對不對?"},{"start":675.273,"end":695.5,"text":"那我的意思是講你的總額會成長但是你的市場不改變這些業者是不是繼續依賴所謂的政府賺購那你台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大這就是我講你這些東西政策你講你要有空間可是修正之後它是會有副作用或是有後果的對不對?報告委員我們未來的綠電銷售我們是分倉制度"},{"start":696.38,"end":723.89,"text":"所以需要綠電的,他可以購買更高的這個綠電。 那麼一般我們國內的廠商,你都要預估的時候,我本來想問你幾年之後他會開始往下走,進入一個正常的機制,看起來也是回答不出來。因為最終他必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的一個交易平台,這個平台就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。"},{"start":724.79,"end":750.3,"text":"我現在接下來講現在財務負擔是節節上升我接下來講離岸豐電剛剛部長有講離岸豐電就沒有短購對不對那我們就把離岸豐電的帳來算一算離岸豐電分三期第一期示範豐廠第二期潛力廠子當初為了推廣所以你先短購當初被大家罵爆嘛一度7塊就是從這個地方來的對不對你說第三期開始我們沒短購了開始進入市場機制對不對市場機制出問題啦三之一標都標出去了很多行政契約不簽了"},{"start":751.32,"end":765.647,"text":"因為開始好難喔做不下去了成本好高算不過來我也不見得找得到對不對你們剛剛講說企業都要用電2030都要用電對不對可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候果汁不淺說我店可能賣不掉政府要幫忙為什麼"},{"start":768.018,"end":788.63,"text":"有沒有這樣的事?先說有沒有這樣的事?應該有吧?我跟委員報告,三之一他跟政府之間是有合約的,所以我們會按照彼此之間的合約,我們會承諾讓他走下去。然後我們會幫助他,剛才您所知道的,他因為跟他的財務的關係,他得不到銀行的..."},{"start":791.351,"end":818.92,"text":"院長我今天時間有限阿,你今天講說我會輔導為什麼?但是你實際上你政府在準備什麼?你是不是要把中鋼拉進來?搞一個基金弄個公司然後一樣搞保駕收購只是他帳不掛在台電掛在別的地方那請問這是不是變相懟購?對不對?要出現一個問題所以三之一期的最大問題叫關不保收阿你所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做為什麼?因為其實你們剛剛也都提了我綠電要把比例拉上來對不對?我要滿足供電的需求"},{"start":819.56,"end":832.81,"text":"那你因為這樣然後你的政策被裹挾政府是標案的業主捏標案的業主開具力之後然後這個得標廠商做不到你不但沒有制裁他沒有處理他你還要輔導他拯救他改變規則這樣對嗎"},{"start":835.593,"end":850.853,"text":"委員我們這個目的是讓那個電費他的成本可以下降所以我們輔導所有的廠商解決他的問題主要的目的是讓他售電的價格成本可以往下走這個是我們最大的不一樣"},{"start":851.254,"end":867.421,"text":"你搞了保,三之一你打算搞保駕收購,你就一樣是乾坤大挪移對不對,國發基金又要來了,聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係,中鋼再搞一次,我是擔心到最後又是,都是納稅人的錢,只是不同的名為。 三之二,我還有,我還有,我還有講話,三之二,國產化出問題啦,結果我們打算要放寬,因為WTO等等的訴訟,我就問,我就問,你當初設計這一套,豐電短購帶國產的標準,是對的還是錯的?"},{"start":882.656,"end":903.153,"text":"國內產業能夠上來接手 這個方向絕對是對的方向是對的 但是政策是錯的對不對 因為你的標準不對吧國內的廠商確實是有些進展得很快的現在所有的推動都被列出目前時空的變化太快我們不可能用一種策略 然後可以執行的好幾十年"},{"start":904.033,"end":931.909,"text":"現在的科技這麼進步嘛所以我們在外部的環境的改變太大了你剛剛這樣一路這樣聽過來喔這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上離岸風電這個給出了錯誤的標準其實原因就是能源結構就是個錯誤的目標所以你整套再生能源的規劃建立在錯誤的邏輯之上錯上加錯是全民要買單啦我要提醒院長我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程當中但是你的出發點都非常的正確"},{"start":957.291,"end":957.492,"text":"主席"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:34:54 - 15:50:53","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155390,"gazette":{"lineno":1232,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（15時35分）謝謝主席，行政院長、經濟部長有請。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢，請經濟部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長午安，部長也午安。"],["郭部長智輝：午安。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天大部分委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題，本席也不例外，特別點一下，稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候說，臺南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了，我必須要講，我是桃園選出來的民意代表，桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊，我要提醒一下兩位，這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的，很有可能會導致區域的對立。我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了，那我們當然要站在選民這一邊，所以未來民營電廠的興建，本席是礙難同意，但這件事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教。","這個指出一個大的問題，也就是說我們能源政策顯然是亂七八糟，而且後遺症頻傳，現在正在發生，不管是電廠擴建招致民怨，或者是電價上漲等等，都是能源政策的後遺症。今天我們要把話說清楚，因為人民的知情權是很重要，能源政策會影響產業發展、影響環境品質、影響民生、影響物價，因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向，但是人民有權利知道走向跟邏輯，而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相。剛剛院長回答李彥秀委員質詢的時候，曾經有講能源政策都會合理的延續，他問你蔡政府的政策會不會延續，你說都會延續，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進，該發展更快的，我們絕對不會怠慢。"],["牛委員煦庭：真的嗎？我再給你一次機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：以前慢下來的，我們希望把它補上來。"],["牛委員煦庭：你真的有延續嗎？我再給你一次機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望延續，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：希望延續，院長，你知不知道電業法最近公告要修正，修正的差異是什麼，你知不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，請告訴我們是哪一個重點。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，要不要救援一下，電業法修正最大的重點是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整。"],["牛委員煦庭：哇！兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗啊！電業法修正最大的差異不在於電價這些問題、這些枝節，最大的核心問題是改變了2016年修正版本的一個重要決策，叫做台電拆分啊！我這樣提示之後，你們有印象嗎？2016年的電業法要求能源政策的規劃跟走向是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個時候我還沒有進來立法院……"],["卓院長榮泰：那不是最近的電業法……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你現在要修嘛！表示你要修舊的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外，上一次是不是2016年修的？這最大的差異是什麼？兩位不知道，很可怕，沒關係，我來跟兩位說分明。電業法修正最關鍵就是要把第六條拿掉，曾經我們說為了要扶植綠電，對不對？為了要打造一個健康的環境，民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊！財務不透明、做事不效率，還有藏電等等亂七八糟，必須要改革、必須要整頓，所以搞出一個電業法的版本，這個電業法的版本告訴大家，6年之後台電要分拆，等於走向民營化的路，把發、輸配跟售拆分，對不對？有一個這樣重要的指導綱領在這個地方，對不對？好，2024年馬上公布要進入修正的電業法裡面，這條刪除了，這是重大的政策轉變吧！院長，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：是，對不對？那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政策的延續不一定是一成不變的，我們現在面對很多的事情，就是在整個大的能源架構底下，我們從增氣、展綠到多元……都一定是照程序走的，但內容是可以調整的，時程也是可以彈性的。"],["牛委員煦庭：大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題，我今天就先不談配比的問題，但我談別的，比如說電業法修正就是一個很好的題目，你剛剛講說會延續，又說要修正，這其實是矛盾的概念，我先問電業法修正是誰的決策？是院長您的決策，譬如行政院開會決議的結果，還是郭部長提出來的想法？還是接下來你們還有氣候變遷委員會，對不對？經濟發展及相關的委員會來自總統指示嗎？是誰的決策？誰決定要把這個第六條拿掉？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我們根據台電實際上面做的評估，所以提供給經濟部，經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司……"],["牛委員煦庭：合理。"],["郭部長智輝：其實沒有辦法讓三家公司都能夠走上比較好運作的情況，還是保持原來的狀態，才有可能做得更完善。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是台電找經濟部，經濟部基本上同意了，對不對？那你們是不是打臉前朝政府？前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們必須要與時俱進，我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛，對不對？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以時空環境不同。"],["郭部長智輝：與時俱進，然後我們提出來請大院所有的委員同意嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：來討論，好，院長，我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我非常佩服委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為概念上來講，本席一向主張面對問題才是解決問題的第一步。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我現在要正式請教你，這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，大的戰略就是展綠、增氣、減煤到非核，這是大的戰略。其中任何一個要隨時事來調整的那種戰術性的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：戰術性的問題？你認為戰術性的問題必須被允許可以調整，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：主管單位都必須拿出來討論，所以剛剛委員講的這個討論，目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來，在主管部會討論的過程當中，它一定蒐集更多，而到這裡來我們還有政委、還有院會，會做多重的考慮。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，還會有多重考慮就對了，OK！你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼？對於政策的影響、對於台電財政的影響是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：它到院裡面來，我們當然要進一步去思考，現在我請部長，看他是否瞭解……"],["牛委員煦庭：你都已經預告修法了，然後院裡面還沒有討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在還沒有，我還沒有看到。"],["牛委員煦庭：還沒有討論，是不是？我就在這個地方提出本席的一些看法，我覺得很奇怪的是，如果當初民進黨在野講能源改革轉型的時候，台電是一個絆腳石，他們說財務不透明、問題一大堆，對不對？關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候，你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場，讓很多人用競爭的方式，避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價躉購的方式來處理，對不對？所以台電才必須要整理、必須要重整，而你現在修法的方向看起來是開倒車，所以不做這件事了，這樣台電就沒有問題了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：躉購就沒有問題了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的，後來到現在我們有新的命題，也就是說2020年以後，零碳是全球的共識。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們就要來調整啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：照你這樣講零碳是優勢、趨勢，所以相對來講，綠電未來發展時政府扶助的比例要越來越低，因為大家都搶著做，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啊？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電當初的規劃，我們到2030年的時候，希望能夠滿足所有出口的廠商，它需要綠電的廠商，我們都能夠滿足他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦！我先跟你講這幾件事情，第一個，對於產業的影響，本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場，希望共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候，它有心理預期，也就是過了幾年之後，我的市場會越來越自由，會透過競爭的方式，變成一個正常的市場。可是這6年來用高價躉購的方式先走，這個本席沒有意見，可是你先走之後，這些先占的產業把好處都占光了，然後現在好處占光，他們領走了高額的補助之後，你現在講我們在市場正常化的角度，我們不做了，回歸舊制，請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎？這是對於未來更多的產業投入時，可能造成的衝擊。","再來，我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力，我們講自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力，對不對？當然，你講台電有員工的問題，有分拆、有債務的問題，本席都瞭解，我也沒有要拆台電的臺的意思，但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情，之後可能的後果會是什麼？是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的占比，繼續增加投資的時候，你還有哪樣工具啊？接下來就是本席要談的，我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地，我們要用躉購電價的方式來處理，當然也被大家批評，對不對？當初大家批評躉購電價很高，用了很多納稅錢的時候，你們講這是個過渡，未來台電會自由化等等，公民電廠統統跑出來之後，成本就會下降，因為它會競爭。現在前提條件消失了，你的躉購機制會退場？還是不會退場？院長，這個是比較大的事情，你們有沒有討論過這樣的事？"],["郭部長智輝：躉購現在沒有，是不存在的。"],["牛委員煦庭：怎麼會沒有存在？"],["卓院長榮泰：它現在還是……"],["牛委員煦庭：你的光電……"],["郭部長智輝：新的部分是不存在的。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題，離岸風電是下一段，但是躉購怎麼會不存在呢？你每一年台電都有報告，就是看這張圖表就好。"],["郭部長智輝：您說的是光電的部分？"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，光電啊！從2019年開始，躉購支出是248.8億，2020年353億、2021年426億，2022年588億，到2023年905億，這是不是一個可觀的成長，誰買單？"],["郭部長智輝：躉購的價格是往下走的。"],["牛委員煦庭：哪有往下走？你看折線圖，平均購價從1度4.26元，到2023年的資料是5.20元，這是台電的公開資料，部長你可以再確認一下。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我想請問院長跟部長，2024年馬上就要年底了，今年是上升還是下降？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然台電要再評估他們現在的發電用電跟業者之間的狀況，我們現在的需求是，將來2025年、2026年甚至2027年，我們舊有電廠除役的比較多，需要更多的民間電廠來參與……"],["牛委員煦庭：你需要對不對？那你會不會需要付更高的代價？會，對不對？因為你需要……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要合理，這不能說需要就……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你預期未來總額支出跟平均價格是會上升還是下降？"],["卓院長榮泰：這要再經過計算，我當然希望能夠越穩定越好……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現來看，它看不到任何下降的可能，這就回到了大家關心的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：您所看到的是因為用電需求成長，所以才會……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，光電的數量也成長，所以總額會成長，對不對？我的意思是，總額會成長，但是市場不改變，業者是不是繼續依賴政府躉購？台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大？這就是我講的，關於這些政策，你講要有空間，可是修正之後是會有副作用或是後果的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，未來的綠電銷售是分倉制度，所以需要綠電的，他們可以購買更高的綠電，一般國內的廠商……"],["牛委員煦庭：院長，你現在連今年的數字都要預估，我本來想問你，幾年之後它會開始往下走，進入一個正常的機制？看起來你是回答不出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為最終必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的……"],["牛委員煦庭：的機制，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個交易平臺，這個平臺就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在的財務負擔是節節上升，我接下來要講的是離岸風電，剛剛部長有講，離岸風電就沒有躉購，對不對？那我們就把離岸風電的帳來算一算，離岸風電分三期，第一期示範風場，第二期潛力場址，當初為了推廣所以先躉購，當初被大家罵爆，1度7塊就是從這個地方來的，對不對？你說第三期開始沒躉購了，開始進入市場機制，對不對？市場機制出問題啦，3-1期標都標出去了，很多行政契約不簽了，因為開始覺得好難、做不下去了、成本好高算不過來，也不見得找得到，對不對？你們剛剛講，企業都要用電，2030年都要用電對不對？可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候裹足不前的說：電可能賣不掉，政府要幫忙。為什麼？有沒有這樣的事？先說有沒有這樣的事？應該有。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，3-1期跟政府之間是有合約的，所以會按照彼此之間的合約，我們會承諾讓它走下去，然後我們會幫助他，剛才您所指導的……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長、院長，你們會輔導、會協助，這個我都聽到了……"],["郭部長智輝：因為跟他們的財務關係，他們得不到銀行的貸款……"],["牛委員煦庭：院長，我今天時間有限，你們今天講會輔導，但實際上政府在準備什麼？你們是不是要把中鋼拉進來？搞一個基金、弄一個公司，然後一樣搞保價收購？只是帳不掛在台電，而是掛在別的地方，那請問這是不是變相躉購？又出現一個問題，3-1期的最大問題叫作官股保收，所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做，為什麼？因為其實你們剛剛也都提了，綠電要把比例拉上來，對不對？要滿足供電的需求，因為這樣，你們的政策被裹脅。","政府是標案的業主，標案的業主開出去之後，得標廠商做不到，你們不但沒有制裁他、沒有處理他，還要輔導他、拯救他，改變規則這樣對嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，委員，我們的目的是讓電費成本可以下降，所以我們輔導所有廠商，解決他們的問題，主要目的是讓售電價格成本可以往下走，這個是我們最大的不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們搞了3-1期，也打算搞保價收購，就一樣是乾坤大挪移，對不對？國發基金又要來了，聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係，中鋼再搞一次，我擔心到最後都是納稅人的錢，只是不同的名目而已……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們的方式不是這樣子……"],["牛委員煦庭：3-2期，我還有……"],["郭部長智輝：我們是讓它的成本往下走。"],["牛委員煦庭：3-2期，國產化出問題了，結果我們打算要放寬，因為WTO等等的訴訟……"],["卓院長榮泰：國際訴訟。"],["牛委員煦庭：我就問，你們當初設計這一套風電躉購國產的標準是對的還是錯的？如果它是對的，為什麼今天會發生這樣的事？"],["卓院長榮泰：國內產業能夠上來接手，這個方向絕對是對的。"],["牛委員煦庭：方向是對的，但是政策是錯的，對不對？因為你的標準不對嘛！才會衍生問題，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：執行過程也不能否認國內的廠商，確實有些進展得很快……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們現在所有的推動都被業主裹脅，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：時空的變化太快了……"],["牛委員煦庭：時空的變化太快……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不可能用一種策略，然後可以執行好幾十年，現在的科技這麼進步，我們外部環境的改變太大了。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛這樣一路聽過來，這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上，離岸風電給出了錯誤的標準，其實原因就是能源結構是一個錯誤的目標，所以你整套再生能源的規劃，建立在錯誤的邏輯之上，錯上加錯，是全民要買單。"],["卓院長榮泰：我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程，你的出發點都非常的正確，但是結論我想我們有必要再跟你做說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：面對問題是解決的開始，先把問題承認，然後好好解決。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們也不知道當初訂定策略的時候會發生烏俄戰爭。"],["卓院長榮泰：解決的方式我們會再向委員說明。"],["郭部長智輝：這個變數太大，所以我們一定要改變，請委員能夠瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這些問題能夠解決，你早早講那個……你可能要離開這件事才不會發生啦！部長加油！院長加油！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12號洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}}