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780.647, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 780.647, \"end\": 780.828, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 780.828, \"end\": 780.908, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 780.908, \"end\": 781.088, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 781.088, \"end\": 781.268, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 781.268, \"end\": 781.408, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 781.408, \"end\": 781.508, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 781.508, \"end\": 781.609, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 781.609, \"end\": 781.629, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 782.91, \"end\": 802.964, \"text\": \"那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個作為一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 782.91, \"end\": 783.911, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 783.911, 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\"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 793.037, \"end\": 793.177, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 793.177, \"end\": 793.277, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 793.277, \"end\": 793.357, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 793.357, \"end\": 793.478, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 793.478, \"end\": 793.598, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 793.598, \"end\": 793.998, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 793.998, \"end\": 794.178, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 794.178, \"end\": 794.578, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 794.578, \"end\": 794.819, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 794.819, \"end\": 795.219, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 795.219, \"end\": 795.419, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 795.419, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 818.901, \"end\": 818.921, \"score\": 1.0}]}, {\"start\": 819.281, \"end\": 847.298, \"text\": \"那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 819.281, \"end\": 819.581, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 819.581, \"end\": 820.242, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"河\", \"start\": 820.242, \"end\": 820.482, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"川\", \"start\": 820.482, \"end\": 820.782, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"富\", \"start\": 820.782, \"end\": 820.982, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"裕\", \"start\": 820.982, \"end\": 821.122, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 821.122, \"end\": 821.302, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 821.302, \"end\": 822.143, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, 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{\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,049 --> 00:00:12,150\n麻煩再請主委院長、經濟部部長備選\n\n2\n00:00:27,364 --> 00:00:43,947\n是,洪委員好。院長午安,那因為時間的關係,我就直接進入重點。院長我有看到您在很多地方,也包括這個會期的施政報告都有提到,會來大力的推動這個二次的能源轉型,尤其是深度節能的部分。\n\n3\n00:00:44,528 --> 00:01:11,902\n那這部分我想大家其實都非常非常認同這是很重要的政策方向我去年在杜拜的時候參加聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面他也講了這兩個重要的方向一個是要全力發展再生能源另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率所以這段時間我其實看到無論是賴總統包括卓院長包括郭部長都時常的表達對於深度節能的期望這部分我想大家都看到了\n\n4\n00:01:34,684 --> 00:01:56,834\n我必須說,其實我在讀完這份8月的這份計畫的內容以後,就是我現在可以拿得到的資料,我確實感覺目前的這個計畫的內容,跟卓院長也好,或賴總統,也包括郭部長,其實在媒體前面談到的這個期望,我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差。\n\n5\n00:01:59,025 --> 00:02:14,439\n這段時間我們其實也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論也希望能夠再給目前的這個方案一些更多積極性正面的這個建議所以在這邊我想來跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論那院長很清楚其實台灣並不是\n\n6\n00:02:15,646 --> 00:02:41,710\n我們第一天或第一年來推動節能,其實大概有十幾二十年的時間,臺灣都在推動節能。那我們過去其實也花了蠻多的預算,在做一些單一設備的汰換,比方說很多的節能的冷氣、冰箱,那在工業裡面也包括很多節能的設備、機台等等等,其實我們過去也花了很多資源在汰換。那這些做法其實當然都會有一些初步的成果。\n\n7\n00:02:42,674 --> 00:02:59,592\n那最近我看總統院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO就是這個我們節能技術服務產業來協助我們的工作那這絕對是一個對的方向可是現在同時也是這一群產業界的朋友一直想要提醒\n\n8\n00:03:00,529 --> 00:03:25,410\n如果要做到真正的深度節能的話就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次那他們都提出一個非常重要的建議喔他們說如果要做到深度節能那麼政府的政策或者政府的補助應該是要讓節能績效越好的人能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持也就是要看績效\n\n9\n00:03:26,724 --> 00:03:34,546\n報告委員我非常贊同您的這個指教這個表現在節能上面表現越好的人我們一定會給他incentive那至於這個incentive要怎麼做當然我們會跟這個委員或者跟產業的這一些朋友\n\n10\n00:03:54,672 --> 00:04:12,378\n所以部長我在這份計畫裡面我們當然現在看到了一些你對於大小大中小用戶的分類這也是對的可是大概絕大部分的計畫資源還是都是在擺在單一設備的設備補助裡面在這個計畫裡面還是看到這件事情\n\n11\n00:04:13,078 --> 00:04:36,677\n那這件事應該做,我也不反對做這件事情,但不能只做這件事情。部長報告委員,我想那一份資料可能是比較舊一點。我們在8月底9月初的時候,我們就已經有稍微在修正了。那麼修正當然是根據這個院長的這個指示。那我們現在先從大的\n\n12\n00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:39,622\n部長我要說的事情是你做用戶的分類這事情我贊成\n\n13\n00:04:57,506 --> 00:05:00,388\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n14\n00:05:16,861 --> 00:05:34,630\n這件事情就是我們要說你怎麼樣走來評估你的績效我怎麼樣來給資源一個最關鍵的一個核心的概念尤其是尤其是很多的這個能資訊管理系統的部分所以不然我確實在這份內容就目前這是因為我這10月的時候\n\n15\n00:05:35,470 --> 00:06:02,224\n在跟這個相關部會要求請他們提供的資料目前還是沒有那麼看到這一點的東西所以很希望這個部分能夠先把它放進去部長這應該沒有問題吧沒有問題謝謝這個委員我們不斷的在update這個資料因為我們現在主要還是能源系統的這個改變當然您指教的非常好我們現在跟國外的這個業者也在討論怎麼樣引進這個好的這個系統技術進來\n\n16\n00:06:05,586 --> 00:06:19,186\n我們現在是以大代小跟您報告就譬如說我們在中鋼或者我們在中油然後它的整個供應鏈我們是從中鋼做然後它整個供應鏈在這個一套供應鏈來實施這個深度決能\n\n17\n00:06:20,848 --> 00:06:36,186\n部長我現在所以我說的說我們這不是只是對大的也不是只是對中鋼我們是要對現在的產業業界怎麼協助他們把系統性能效的績效評估的方法客觀科學的建立起來以後包括\n\n18\n00:06:36,847 --> 00:06:51,238\n銀行要融資,它也要一個績效評估的方法,它也要一個財務評估的方法,這都是基礎,這是第一點。第二點我要跟部長講到,很重要的事情大家都提到,如果要把系統性節能給做好的話,我們就需要有用電大數據的data。\n\n19\n00:06:52,119 --> 00:07:06,826\n那這個大數據的data來做深入分析才能把改善的問題點給找到那這是很多SQO業者都共同的心聲那但是現在這個擴大data應用的部分坦白說在這份資料裡面也看不太到\n\n20\n00:07:07,466 --> 00:07:11,432\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n21\n00:07:24,710 --> 00:07:26,831\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n22\n00:07:44,889 --> 00:07:59,998\n以防說建築節能是我們內政部在管的可是好像在這裡面也沒有看到建築節能的部分那也包括我們很多節能的產業包括節能計畫他需要融資他需要很多財務的方案這部分國發會或金管會\n\n23\n00:08:00,538 --> 00:08:00,558\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n\n24\n00:08:22,953 --> 00:08:43,462\n希望其他部會有更大的程度來支持深度節能的工作,所以這部分也希望院長可以看到,也包括現在的地方政府,在這裡面也看不到地方政府的角色,在國際上面大家都知道節能很重要關鍵的角色是地方政府,但地方政府也沒有進來在這份計畫的內容裡面,所以這些種種我們大概提了一個這個建議,希望院長\n\n25\n00:08:44,582 --> 00:08:59,578\n可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下有沒有可能在優化我們目前方案的空間也包括把我們接下來要修農能源管理法能源管理法裡面把上述的這些建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求\n\n26\n00:09:00,359 --> 00:09:01,700\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n\n27\n00:09:16,952 --> 00:09:19,713\n我們在產業新條例草案上面第10條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資遞減項目\n\n28\n00:09:40,865 --> 00:10:00,843\n部長我這邊是在幫你爭取啦希望其他的部會可以更加的大力的支持啦那這部分也希望院長可以來支持跟有一個這樣子清楚的指示我剛有做過統合的一些會議請簡單解答跟委員報告一下喔您剛才提到的建築綠色金融我們全部都放在永續會議裡面都有列觀那我們現在也有在會議在整合\n\n29\n00:10:01,654 --> 00:10:29,733\n經濟部長跟我談過好幾次這個深度減能的部分我建議如果我們要有一個深度減能的方案的話這應該是要有一個跨部會的方案該放進來的我們應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓這樣子那再來一個事情我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題其實最近颱風過後我們有許多關於防災治水的討論那其實我想讓院長知道目前其實也有很多關於減災防洪治水的一些新的做法\n\n30\n00:10:30,433 --> 00:10:54,819\n那我一般可能叫做淨自然工法那這部分也希望讓院長知道簡單來說這個所謂淨自然工法的意思就是不再只是求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化這過去其實也產生了很多的問題可能會造成河道的下切或者是水泥構造物被破壞所以你就不斷的要用新的工程一再反覆的甚至被績效這叫做永續工程做不完的工程啦\n\n31\n00:10:55,279 --> 00:11:22,222\n五年就要做一次五年就要投資一次資源那這幾年其實經濟部跟農業部他們其實也透過這個禁自然工法的導入已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要的示範案例其實在國內外都非常有名包括像在花蓮的蝙蜥包括在新北貢寮的遠望坑溪包括南投種花坑溪目前的案例其實已經越來越多我自己也都到現場去看過其實真的做得非常好\n\n32\n00:11:22,842 --> 00:11:46,072\n所以這個做法我想跟院長講,這個做法其實有很多好處。第一個,安全的防洪減災,這是沒有問題的。第二個,農民取水灌溉也能夠穩定,這都被驗證了。再來,枯水期可以不斷流,也能夠恢復棲地的生態。最重要的事情是,他的經費常常只要那種水泥化的工程的二分之一,而且他可以撐的時間可能更長。\n\n33\n00:11:46,812 --> 00:12:01,572\n在經費預算上面都有好處所以院長我想請問你覺得像這種能夠兼顧多營我這邊的投影片寫說五個願望幾乎是一次滿足你要安全減災你要看經費你要不斷流你要生態富裕\n\n34\n00:12:02,941 --> 00:12:16,538\n三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、\n\n35\n00:12:19,602 --> 00:12:45,049\n今年修了,上半年修,下半年又壞,颱風來又壞,大水來又壞,能夠從有系統性的治水,從上游整治,一直到下游能夠排出,這樣整個系統來處理,我希望能夠朝這個方向來做,謝謝委員提供這個。議長我覺得不管是經濟部、水利署或者是農業部也好,我覺得都應該更大程度來參考這個淨自然工法,我這邊有幾個期待啦。議長其實最近我們看到行政院也在籌組水及流域永續的小組,\n\n36\n00:12:46,750 --> 00:13:01,629\n我目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來做召集我自己很希望我們能夠把這個河川復育的工作跟目標可以放入到這個永續推動小組這是一個院級的小組我目前知道是政委有開過會了\n\n37\n00:13:02,910 --> 00:13:22,964\n那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個作為一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張\n\n38\n00:13:24,145 --> 00:13:38,921\n我們看到其實包括像美國他們有所謂的健康流域計畫他們有幾個重要的地景、地形、棲地、水質、水溫、生態狀態幾個很重要的指標來評估什麼樣是一個健康的流域我們希望能夠參考這些國際上面的做法\n\n39\n00:13:39,281 --> 00:14:07,298\n那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說\n\n40\n00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:34,969\n未來4年,我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川,達成這個所謂河川富裕的工作,去一步一步的完成剛才說健康流域的指標。那這個政策的目標如果出來的話,不管是農業部,不管是經濟部,下面的相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向做,我們就可以有一個新的治水,或者是新的水治理的一個新的局面,用的經費也更少,反而更健康。\n\n41\n00:14:36,159 --> 00:15:03,147\n我跟委員報告一下就是有關你剛才所提到的一個河川的覆域裡面其實他是用流域的概念從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川的部分然後上游的野溪的部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計到符合生態的一個規範的一個施工的工法但是一個工法的改善會在跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念我們會去訂出大概年度上我們需要處理多少個\n\n42\n00:15:04,428 --> 00:15:31,689\n部長在觀念上面我想大家都討論過但我們現在希望有一個具體的政策目標在這個政策目標之下才能夠展開大家的執行跟績效的確認所以希望有個這個政策目標能夠包括現在行政院有一個小組嘛能用這個平台來做一個政策目標的規劃然後我們看我們能夠在這幾年可以有多少的進展有多少的溪流能夠更進一步的做到河川富裕這是我們的期望啦可以嗎院長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10049\t12150\t麻煩再請主委院長、經濟部部長備選\n27364\t43947\t是,洪委員好。 院長午安,那因為時間的關係,我就直接進入重點。 院長我有看到您在很多地方,也包括這個會期的施政報告都有提到,會來大力的推動這個二次的能源轉型,尤其是深度節能的部分。\n44528\t71902\t那這部分我想大家其實都非常非常認同這是很重要的政策方向我去年在杜拜的時候參加聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面他也講了這兩個重要的方向一個是要全力發展再生能源另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率所以這段時間我其實看到無論是賴總統包括卓院長包括郭部長都時常的表達對於深度節能的期望這部分我想大家都看到了\n72602\t94189\t議員長\n94684\t116834\t我必須說,其實我在讀完這份8月的這份計畫的內容以後,就是我現在可以拿得到的資料,我確實感覺目前的這個計畫的內容,跟卓院長也好,或賴總統,也包括郭部長,其實在媒體前面談到的這個期望,我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差。\n119025\t134439\t這段時間我們其實也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論也希望能夠再給目前的這個方案一些更多積極性正面的這個建議所以在這邊我想來跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論那院長很清楚其實台灣並不是\n135646\t161710\t我們第一天或第一年來推動節能,其實大概有十幾二十年的時間,臺灣都在推動節能。 那我們過去其實也花了蠻多的預算,在做一些單一設備的汰換,比方說很多的節能的冷氣、冰箱,那在工業裡面也包括很多節能的設備、機台等等等,其實我們過去也花了很多資源在汰換。 那這些做法其實當然都會有一些初步的成果。\n162674\t179592\t那最近我看總統院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO就是這個我們節能技術服務產業來協助我們的工作那這絕對是一個對的方向可是現在同時也是這一群產業界的朋友一直想要提醒\n180529\t205410\t如果要做到真正的深度節能的話就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次那他們都提出一個非常重要的建議喔他們說如果要做到深度節能那麼政府的政策或者政府的補助應該是要讓節能績效越好的人能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持也就是要看績效\n206724\t214546\t報告委員我非常贊同您的這個指教這個表現在節能上面表現越好的人我們一定會給他incentive那至於這個incentive要怎麼做當然我們會跟這個委員或者跟產業的這一些朋友\n234672\t252378\t所以部長我在這份計畫裡面我們當然現在看到了一些你對於大小大中小用戶的分類這也是對的可是大概絕大部分的計畫資源還是都是在擺在單一設備的設備補助裡面在這個計畫裡面還是看到這件事情\n253078\t276677\t那這件事應該做,我也不反對做這件事情,但不能只做這件事情。部長報告委員,我想那一份資料可能是比較舊一點。我們在8月底9月初的時候,我們就已經有稍微在修正了。那麼修正當然是根據這個院長的這個指示。那我們現在先從大的\n277500\t279622\t部長 我要說的事情是你做用戶的分類這事情我贊成\n297506\t300388\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n316861\t334630\t這件事情就是我們要說你怎麼樣走來評估你的績效我怎麼樣來給資源一個最關鍵的一個核心的概念尤其是尤其是很多的這個能資訊管理系統的部分所以不然我確實在這份內容就目前這是因為我這10月的時候\n335470\t362224\t在跟這個相關部會要求請他們提供的資料目前還是沒有那麼看到這一點的東西所以很希望這個部分能夠先把它放進去部長這應該沒有問題吧沒有問題謝謝這個委員我們不斷的在update這個資料因為我們現在主要還是能源系統的這個改變當然您指教的非常好我們現在跟國外的這個業者也在討論怎麼樣引進這個好的這個系統技術進來\n365586\t379186\t我們現在是以大代小跟您報告就譬如說我們在中鋼或者我們在中油然後它的整個供應鏈我們是從中鋼做然後它整個供應鏈在這個一套供應鏈來實施這個深度決能\n380848\t396186\t部長我現在所以我說的說我們這不是只是對大的也不是只是對中鋼我們是要對現在的產業業界怎麼協助他們把系統性能效的績效評估的方法客觀科學的建立起來以後包括\n396847\t411238\t銀行要融資,它也要一個績效評估的方法,它也要一個財務評估的方法,這都是基礎,這是第一點。第二點我要跟部長講到,很重要的事情大家都提到,如果要把系統性節能給做好的話,我們就需要有用電大數據的data。\n412119\t426826\t那這個大數據的data來做深入分析才能把改善的問題點給找到那這是很多SQO業者都共同的心聲那但是現在這個擴大data應用的部分坦白說在這份資料裡面也看不太到\n427466\t431432\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n444710\t446831\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n464889\t479998\t以防說建築節能是我們內政部在管的可是好像在這裡面也沒有看到建築節能的部分那也包括我們很多節能的產業包括節能計畫他需要融資他需要很多財務的方案這部分國發會或金管會\n480538\t480558\t二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n502953\t523462\t希望其他部會有更大的程度來支持深度節能的工作,所以這部分也希望院長可以看到,也包括現在的地方政府,在這裡面也看不到地方政府的角色,在國際上面大家都知道節能很重要關鍵的角色是地方政府,但地方政府也沒有進來在這份計畫的內容裡面,所以這些種種我們大概提了一個這個建議,希望院長\n524582\t539578\t可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下有沒有可能在優化我們目前方案的空間也包括把我們接下來要修農能源管理法能源管理法裡面把上述的這些建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求\n540359\t541700\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n556952\t559713\t我們在產業新條例草案上面第10條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資遞減項目\n580865\t600843\t部長我這邊是在幫你爭取啦希望其他的部會可以更加的大力的支持啦那這部分也希望院長可以來支持跟有一個這樣子清楚的指示我剛有做過統合的一些會議請簡單解答跟委員報告一下喔您剛才提到的建築綠色金融我們全部都放在永續會議裡面都有列觀那我們現在也有在會議在整合\n601654\t629733\t經濟部長跟我談過好幾次這個深度減能的部分我建議如果我們要有一個深度減能的方案的話這應該是要有一個跨部會的方案該放進來的我們應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓這樣子那再來一個事情我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題其實最近颱風過後我們有許多關於防災治水的討論那其實我想讓院長知道目前其實也有很多關於減災防洪治水的一些新的做法\n630433\t654819\t那我一般可能叫做淨自然工法那這部分也希望讓院長知道簡單來說這個所謂淨自然工法的意思就是不再只是求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化這過去其實也產生了很多的問題可能會造成河道的下切或者是水泥構造物被破壞所以你就不斷的要用新的工程一再反覆的甚至被績效這叫做永續工程做不完的工程啦\n655279\t682222\t五年就要做一次五年就要投資一次資源那這幾年其實經濟部跟農業部他們其實也透過這個禁自然工法的導入已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要的示範案例其實在國內外都非常有名包括像在花蓮的蝙蜥包括在新北貢寮的遠望坑溪包括南投種花坑溪目前的案例其實已經越來越多我自己也都到現場去看過其實真的做得非常好\n682842\t706072\t所以這個做法我想跟院長講,這個做法其實有很多好處。 第一個,安全的防洪減災,這是沒有問題的。 第二個,農民取水灌溉也能夠穩定,這都被驗證了。 再來,枯水期可以不斷流,也能夠恢復棲地的生態。 最重要的事情是,他的經費常常只要那種水泥化的工程的二分之一,而且他可以撐的時間可能更長。\n706812\t721572\t在經費預算上面都有好處所以院長我想請問你覺得像這種能夠兼顧多營我這邊的投影片寫說五個願望幾乎是一次滿足你要安全減災你要看經費你要不斷流你要生態富裕\n722941\t736538\t三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、\n739602\t765049\t今年修了,上半年修,下半年又壞,颱風來又壞,大水來又壞,能夠從有系統性的治水,從上游整治,一直到下游能夠排出,這樣整個系統來處理,我希望能夠朝這個方向來做,謝謝委員提供這個。 議長我覺得不管是經濟部、水利署或者是農業部也好,我覺得都應該更大程度來參考這個淨自然工法,我這邊有幾個期待啦。 議長其實最近我們看到行政院也在籌組水及流域永續的小組,\n766750\t781629\t我目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來做召集我自己很希望我們能夠把這個河川復育的工作跟目標可以放入到這個永續推動小組這是一個院級的小組我目前知道是政委有開過會了\n782910\t802964\t那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個作為一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張\n804145\t818921\t我們看到其實包括像美國他們有所謂的健康流域計畫他們有幾個重要的地景、地形、棲地、水質、水溫、生態狀態幾個很重要的指標來評估什麼樣是一個健康的流域我們希望能夠參考這些國際上面的做法\n819281\t847298\t那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說\n848399\t874969\t未來4年,我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川,達成這個所謂河川富裕的工作,去一步一步的完成剛才說健康流域的指標。那這個政策的目標如果出來的話,不管是農業部,不管是經濟部,下面的相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向做,我們就可以有一個新的治水,或者是新的水治理的一個新的局面,用的經費也更少,反而更健康。\n876159\t903147\t我跟委員報告一下就是有關你剛才所提到的一個河川的覆域裡面其實他是用流域的概念從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川的部分然後上游的野溪的部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計到符合生態的一個規範的一個施工的工法但是一個工法的改善會在跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念我們會去訂出大概年度上我們需要處理多少個\n904428\t931689\t部長在觀念上面我想大家都討論過但我們現在希望有一個具體的政策目標在這個政策目標之下才能夠展開大家的執行跟績效的確認所以希望有個這個政策目標能夠包括現在行政院有一個小組嘛能用這個平台來做一個政策目標的規劃然後我們看我們能夠在這幾年可以有多少的進展有多少的溪流能夠更進一步的做到河川富裕這是我們的期望啦可以嗎院長\n937654\t937944\t謝謝。\n","txt":"麻煩再請主委院長、經濟部部長備選\n是,洪委員好。 院長午安,那因為時間的關係,我就直接進入重點。 院長我有看到您在很多地方,也包括這個會期的施政報告都有提到,會來大力的推動這個二次的能源轉型,尤其是深度節能的部分。\n那這部分我想大家其實都非常非常認同這是很重要的政策方向我去年在杜拜的時候參加聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面他也講了這兩個重要的方向一個是要全力發展再生能源另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率所以這段時間我其實看到無論是賴總統包括卓院長包括郭部長都時常的表達對於深度節能的期望這部分我想大家都看到了\n議員長\n我必須說,其實我在讀完這份8月的這份計畫的內容以後,就是我現在可以拿得到的資料,我確實感覺目前的這個計畫的內容,跟卓院長也好,或賴總統,也包括郭部長,其實在媒體前面談到的這個期望,我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差。\n這段時間我們其實也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論也希望能夠再給目前的這個方案一些更多積極性正面的這個建議所以在這邊我想來跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論那院長很清楚其實台灣並不是\n我們第一天或第一年來推動節能,其實大概有十幾二十年的時間,臺灣都在推動節能。 那我們過去其實也花了蠻多的預算,在做一些單一設備的汰換,比方說很多的節能的冷氣、冰箱,那在工業裡面也包括很多節能的設備、機台等等等,其實我們過去也花了很多資源在汰換。 那這些做法其實當然都會有一些初步的成果。\n那最近我看總統院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO就是這個我們節能技術服務產業來協助我們的工作那這絕對是一個對的方向可是現在同時也是這一群產業界的朋友一直想要提醒\n如果要做到真正的深度節能的話就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次那他們都提出一個非常重要的建議喔他們說如果要做到深度節能那麼政府的政策或者政府的補助應該是要讓節能績效越好的人能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持也就是要看績效\n報告委員我非常贊同您的這個指教這個表現在節能上面表現越好的人我們一定會給他incentive那至於這個incentive要怎麼做當然我們會跟這個委員或者跟產業的這一些朋友\n所以部長我在這份計畫裡面我們當然現在看到了一些你對於大小大中小用戶的分類這也是對的可是大概絕大部分的計畫資源還是都是在擺在單一設備的設備補助裡面在這個計畫裡面還是看到這件事情\n那這件事應該做,我也不反對做這件事情,但不能只做這件事情。部長報告委員,我想那一份資料可能是比較舊一點。我們在8月底9月初的時候,我們就已經有稍微在修正了。那麼修正當然是根據這個院長的這個指示。那我們現在先從大的\n部長 我要說的事情是你做用戶的分類這事情我贊成\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n這件事情就是我們要說你怎麼樣走來評估你的績效我怎麼樣來給資源一個最關鍵的一個核心的概念尤其是尤其是很多的這個能資訊管理系統的部分所以不然我確實在這份內容就目前這是因為我這10月的時候\n在跟這個相關部會要求請他們提供的資料目前還是沒有那麼看到這一點的東西所以很希望這個部分能夠先把它放進去部長這應該沒有問題吧沒有問題謝謝這個委員我們不斷的在update這個資料因為我們現在主要還是能源系統的這個改變當然您指教的非常好我們現在跟國外的這個業者也在討論怎麼樣引進這個好的這個系統技術進來\n我們現在是以大代小跟您報告就譬如說我們在中鋼或者我們在中油然後它的整個供應鏈我們是從中鋼做然後它整個供應鏈在這個一套供應鏈來實施這個深度決能\n部長我現在所以我說的說我們這不是只是對大的也不是只是對中鋼我們是要對現在的產業業界怎麼協助他們把系統性能效的績效評估的方法客觀科學的建立起來以後包括\n銀行要融資,它也要一個績效評估的方法,它也要一個財務評估的方法,這都是基礎,這是第一點。第二點我要跟部長講到,很重要的事情大家都提到,如果要把系統性節能給做好的話,我們就需要有用電大數據的data。\n那這個大數據的data來做深入分析才能把改善的問題點給找到那這是很多SQO業者都共同的心聲那但是現在這個擴大data應用的部分坦白說在這份資料裡面也看不太到\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n以防說建築節能是我們內政部在管的可是好像在這裡面也沒有看到建築節能的部分那也包括我們很多節能的產業包括節能計畫他需要融資他需要很多財務的方案這部分國發會或金管會\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n希望其他部會有更大的程度來支持深度節能的工作,所以這部分也希望院長可以看到,也包括現在的地方政府,在這裡面也看不到地方政府的角色,在國際上面大家都知道節能很重要關鍵的角色是地方政府,但地方政府也沒有進來在這份計畫的內容裡面,所以這些種種我們大概提了一個這個建議,希望院長\n可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下有沒有可能在優化我們目前方案的空間也包括把我們接下來要修農能源管理法能源管理法裡面把上述的這些建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n我們在產業新條例草案上面第10條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資遞減項目\n部長我這邊是在幫你爭取啦希望其他的部會可以更加的大力的支持啦那這部分也希望院長可以來支持跟有一個這樣子清楚的指示我剛有做過統合的一些會議請簡單解答跟委員報告一下喔您剛才提到的建築綠色金融我們全部都放在永續會議裡面都有列觀那我們現在也有在會議在整合\n經濟部長跟我談過好幾次這個深度減能的部分我建議如果我們要有一個深度減能的方案的話這應該是要有一個跨部會的方案該放進來的我們應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓這樣子那再來一個事情我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題其實最近颱風過後我們有許多關於防災治水的討論那其實我想讓院長知道目前其實也有很多關於減災防洪治水的一些新的做法\n那我一般可能叫做淨自然工法那這部分也希望讓院長知道簡單來說這個所謂淨自然工法的意思就是不再只是求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化這過去其實也產生了很多的問題可能會造成河道的下切或者是水泥構造物被破壞所以你就不斷的要用新的工程一再反覆的甚至被績效這叫做永續工程做不完的工程啦\n五年就要做一次五年就要投資一次資源那這幾年其實經濟部跟農業部他們其實也透過這個禁自然工法的導入已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要的示範案例其實在國內外都非常有名包括像在花蓮的蝙蜥包括在新北貢寮的遠望坑溪包括南投種花坑溪目前的案例其實已經越來越多我自己也都到現場去看過其實真的做得非常好\n所以這個做法我想跟院長講,這個做法其實有很多好處。 第一個,安全的防洪減災,這是沒有問題的。 第二個,農民取水灌溉也能夠穩定,這都被驗證了。 再來,枯水期可以不斷流,也能夠恢復棲地的生態。 最重要的事情是,他的經費常常只要那種水泥化的工程的二分之一,而且他可以撐的時間可能更長。\n在經費預算上面都有好處所以院長我想請問你覺得像這種能夠兼顧多營我這邊的投影片寫說五個願望幾乎是一次滿足你要安全減災你要看經費你要不斷流你要生態富裕\n三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、\n今年修了,上半年修,下半年又壞,颱風來又壞,大水來又壞,能夠從有系統性的治水,從上游整治,一直到下游能夠排出,這樣整個系統來處理,我希望能夠朝這個方向來做,謝謝委員提供這個。 議長我覺得不管是經濟部、水利署或者是農業部也好,我覺得都應該更大程度來參考這個淨自然工法,我這邊有幾個期待啦。 議長其實最近我們看到行政院也在籌組水及流域永續的小組,\n我目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來做召集我自己很希望我們能夠把這個河川復育的工作跟目標可以放入到這個永續推動小組這是一個院級的小組我目前知道是政委有開過會了\n那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個作為一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張\n我們看到其實包括像美國他們有所謂的健康流域計畫他們有幾個重要的地景、地形、棲地、水質、水溫、生態狀態幾個很重要的指標來評估什麼樣是一個健康的流域我們希望能夠參考這些國際上面的做法\n那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說\n未來4年,我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川,達成這個所謂河川富裕的工作,去一步一步的完成剛才說健康流域的指標。那這個政策的目標如果出來的話,不管是農業部,不管是經濟部,下面的相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向做,我們就可以有一個新的治水,或者是新的水治理的一個新的局面,用的經費也更少,反而更健康。\n我跟委員報告一下就是有關你剛才所提到的一個河川的覆域裡面其實他是用流域的概念從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川的部分然後上游的野溪的部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計到符合生態的一個規範的一個施工的工法但是一個工法的改善會在跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念我們會去訂出大概年度上我們需要處理多少個\n部長在觀念上面我想大家都討論過但我們現在希望有一個具體的政策目標在這個政策目標之下才能夠展開大家的執行跟績效的確認所以希望有個這個政策目標能夠包括現在行政院有一個小組嘛能用這個平台來做一個政策目標的規劃然後我們看我們能夠在這幾年可以有多少的進展有多少的溪流能夠更進一步的做到河川富裕這是我們的期望啦可以嗎院長\n謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.049 --> 00:12.150\n麻煩再請主委院長、經濟部部長備選\n\n00:27.364 --> 00:43.947\n是,洪委員好。院長午安,那因為時間的關係,我就直接進入重點。院長我有看到您在很多地方,也包括這個會期的施政報告都有提到,會來大力的推動這個二次的能源轉型,尤其是深度節能的部分。\n\n00:44.528 --> 01:11.902\n那這部分我想大家其實都非常非常認同這是很重要的政策方向我去年在杜拜的時候參加聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面他也講了這兩個重要的方向一個是要全力發展再生能源另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率所以這段時間我其實看到無論是賴總統包括卓院長包括郭部長都時常的表達對於深度節能的期望這部分我想大家都看到了\n\n01:34.684 --> 01:56.834\n我必須說,其實我在讀完這份8月的這份計畫的內容以後,就是我現在可以拿得到的資料,我確實感覺目前的這個計畫的內容,跟卓院長也好,或賴總統,也包括郭部長,其實在媒體前面談到的這個期望,我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差。\n\n01:59.025 --> 02:14.439\n這段時間我們其實也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論也希望能夠再給目前的這個方案一些更多積極性正面的這個建議所以在這邊我想來跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論那院長很清楚其實台灣並不是\n\n02:15.646 --> 02:41.710\n我們第一天或第一年來推動節能,其實大概有十幾二十年的時間,臺灣都在推動節能。那我們過去其實也花了蠻多的預算,在做一些單一設備的汰換,比方說很多的節能的冷氣、冰箱,那在工業裡面也包括很多節能的設備、機台等等等,其實我們過去也花了很多資源在汰換。那這些做法其實當然都會有一些初步的成果。\n\n02:42.674 --> 02:59.592\n那最近我看總統院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO就是這個我們節能技術服務產業來協助我們的工作那這絕對是一個對的方向可是現在同時也是這一群產業界的朋友一直想要提醒\n\n03:00.529 --> 03:25.410\n如果要做到真正的深度節能的話就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次那他們都提出一個非常重要的建議喔他們說如果要做到深度節能那麼政府的政策或者政府的補助應該是要讓節能績效越好的人能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持也就是要看績效\n\n03:26.724 --> 03:34.546\n報告委員我非常贊同您的這個指教這個表現在節能上面表現越好的人我們一定會給他incentive那至於這個incentive要怎麼做當然我們會跟這個委員或者跟產業的這一些朋友\n\n03:54.672 --> 04:12.378\n所以部長我在這份計畫裡面我們當然現在看到了一些你對於大小大中小用戶的分類這也是對的可是大概絕大部分的計畫資源還是都是在擺在單一設備的設備補助裡面在這個計畫裡面還是看到這件事情\n\n04:13.078 --> 04:36.677\n那這件事應該做,我也不反對做這件事情,但不能只做這件事情。部長報告委員,我想那一份資料可能是比較舊一點。我們在8月底9月初的時候,我們就已經有稍微在修正了。那麼修正當然是根據這個院長的這個指示。那我們現在先從大的\n\n04:37.500 --> 04:39.622\n部長我要說的事情是你做用戶的分類這事情我贊成\n\n04:57.506 --> 05:00.388\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n05:16.861 --> 05:34.630\n這件事情就是我們要說你怎麼樣走來評估你的績效我怎麼樣來給資源一個最關鍵的一個核心的概念尤其是尤其是很多的這個能資訊管理系統的部分所以不然我確實在這份內容就目前這是因為我這10月的時候\n\n05:35.470 --> 06:02.224\n在跟這個相關部會要求請他們提供的資料目前還是沒有那麼看到這一點的東西所以很希望這個部分能夠先把它放進去部長這應該沒有問題吧沒有問題謝謝這個委員我們不斷的在update這個資料因為我們現在主要還是能源系統的這個改變當然您指教的非常好我們現在跟國外的這個業者也在討論怎麼樣引進這個好的這個系統技術進來\n\n06:05.586 --> 06:19.186\n我們現在是以大代小跟您報告就譬如說我們在中鋼或者我們在中油然後它的整個供應鏈我們是從中鋼做然後它整個供應鏈在這個一套供應鏈來實施這個深度決能\n\n06:20.848 --> 06:36.186\n部長我現在所以我說的說我們這不是只是對大的也不是只是對中鋼我們是要對現在的產業業界怎麼協助他們把系統性能效的績效評估的方法客觀科學的建立起來以後包括\n\n06:36.847 --> 06:51.238\n銀行要融資,它也要一個績效評估的方法,它也要一個財務評估的方法,這都是基礎,這是第一點。第二點我要跟部長講到,很重要的事情大家都提到,如果要把系統性節能給做好的話,我們就需要有用電大數據的data。\n\n06:52.119 --> 07:06.826\n那這個大數據的data來做深入分析才能把改善的問題點給找到那這是很多SQO業者都共同的心聲那但是現在這個擴大data應用的部分坦白說在這份資料裡面也看不太到\n\n07:07.466 --> 07:11.432\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n07:24.710 --> 07:26.831\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n07:44.889 --> 07:59.998\n以防說建築節能是我們內政部在管的可是好像在這裡面也沒有看到建築節能的部分那也包括我們很多節能的產業包括節能計畫他需要融資他需要很多財務的方案這部分國發會或金管會\n\n08:00.538 --> 08:00.558\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50\n\n08:22.953 --> 08:43.462\n希望其他部會有更大的程度來支持深度節能的工作,所以這部分也希望院長可以看到,也包括現在的地方政府,在這裡面也看不到地方政府的角色,在國際上面大家都知道節能很重要關鍵的角色是地方政府,但地方政府也沒有進來在這份計畫的內容裡面,所以這些種種我們大概提了一個這個建議,希望院長\n\n08:44.582 --> 08:59.578\n可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下有沒有可能在優化我們目前方案的空間也包括把我們接下來要修農能源管理法能源管理法裡面把上述的這些建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求\n\n09:00.359 --> 09:01.700\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n\n09:16.952 --> 09:19.713\n我們在產業新條例草案上面第10條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資遞減項目\n\n09:40.865 --> 10:00.843\n部長我這邊是在幫你爭取啦希望其他的部會可以更加的大力的支持啦那這部分也希望院長可以來支持跟有一個這樣子清楚的指示我剛有做過統合的一些會議請簡單解答跟委員報告一下喔您剛才提到的建築綠色金融我們全部都放在永續會議裡面都有列觀那我們現在也有在會議在整合\n\n10:01.654 --> 10:29.733\n經濟部長跟我談過好幾次這個深度減能的部分我建議如果我們要有一個深度減能的方案的話這應該是要有一個跨部會的方案該放進來的我們應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓這樣子那再來一個事情我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題其實最近颱風過後我們有許多關於防災治水的討論那其實我想讓院長知道目前其實也有很多關於減災防洪治水的一些新的做法\n\n10:30.433 --> 10:54.819\n那我一般可能叫做淨自然工法那這部分也希望讓院長知道簡單來說這個所謂淨自然工法的意思就是不再只是求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化這過去其實也產生了很多的問題可能會造成河道的下切或者是水泥構造物被破壞所以你就不斷的要用新的工程一再反覆的甚至被績效這叫做永續工程做不完的工程啦\n\n10:55.279 --> 11:22.222\n五年就要做一次五年就要投資一次資源那這幾年其實經濟部跟農業部他們其實也透過這個禁自然工法的導入已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要的示範案例其實在國內外都非常有名包括像在花蓮的蝙蜥包括在新北貢寮的遠望坑溪包括南投種花坑溪目前的案例其實已經越來越多我自己也都到現場去看過其實真的做得非常好\n\n11:22.842 --> 11:46.072\n所以這個做法我想跟院長講,這個做法其實有很多好處。第一個,安全的防洪減災,這是沒有問題的。第二個,農民取水灌溉也能夠穩定,這都被驗證了。再來,枯水期可以不斷流,也能夠恢復棲地的生態。最重要的事情是,他的經費常常只要那種水泥化的工程的二分之一,而且他可以撐的時間可能更長。\n\n11:46.812 --> 12:01.572\n在經費預算上面都有好處所以院長我想請問你覺得像這種能夠兼顧多營我這邊的投影片寫說五個願望幾乎是一次滿足你要安全減災你要看經費你要不斷流你要生態富裕\n\n12:02.941 --> 12:16.538\n三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、\n\n12:19.602 --> 12:45.049\n今年修了,上半年修,下半年又壞,颱風來又壞,大水來又壞,能夠從有系統性的治水,從上游整治,一直到下游能夠排出,這樣整個系統來處理,我希望能夠朝這個方向來做,謝謝委員提供這個。議長我覺得不管是經濟部、水利署或者是農業部也好,我覺得都應該更大程度來參考這個淨自然工法,我這邊有幾個期待啦。議長其實最近我們看到行政院也在籌組水及流域永續的小組,\n\n12:46.750 --> 13:01.629\n我目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來做召集我自己很希望我們能夠把這個河川復育的工作跟目標可以放入到這個永續推動小組這是一個院級的小組我目前知道是政委有開過會了\n\n13:02.910 --> 13:22.964\n那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個作為一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張\n\n13:24.145 --> 13:38.921\n我們看到其實包括像美國他們有所謂的健康流域計畫他們有幾個重要的地景、地形、棲地、水質、水溫、生態狀態幾個很重要的指標來評估什麼樣是一個健康的流域我們希望能夠參考這些國際上面的做法\n\n13:39.281 --> 14:07.298\n那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說\n\n14:08.399 --> 14:34.969\n未來4年,我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川,達成這個所謂河川富裕的工作,去一步一步的完成剛才說健康流域的指標。那這個政策的目標如果出來的話,不管是農業部,不管是經濟部,下面的相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向做,我們就可以有一個新的治水,或者是新的水治理的一個新的局面,用的經費也更少,反而更健康。\n\n14:36.159 --> 15:03.147\n我跟委員報告一下就是有關你剛才所提到的一個河川的覆域裡面其實他是用流域的概念從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川的部分然後上游的野溪的部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計到符合生態的一個規範的一個施工的工法但是一個工法的改善會在跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念我們會去訂出大概年度上我們需要處理多少個\n\n15:04.428 --> 15:31.689\n部長在觀念上面我想大家都討論過但我們現在希望有一個具體的政策目標在這個政策目標之下才能夠展開大家的執行跟績效的確認所以希望有個這個政策目標能夠包括現在行政院有一個小組嘛能用這個平台來做一個政策目標的規劃然後我們看我們能夠在這幾年可以有多少的進展有多少的溪流能夠更進一步的做到河川富裕這是我們的期望啦可以嗎院長\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.049,"end":12.15,"text":"麻煩再請主委院長、經濟部部長備選"},{"start":27.364,"end":43.947,"text":"是,洪委員好。 院長午安,那因為時間的關係,我就直接進入重點。 院長我有看到您在很多地方,也包括這個會期的施政報告都有提到,會來大力的推動這個二次的能源轉型,尤其是深度節能的部分。"},{"start":44.528,"end":71.902,"text":"那這部分我想大家其實都非常非常認同這是很重要的政策方向我去年在杜拜的時候參加聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面他也講了這兩個重要的方向一個是要全力發展再生能源另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率所以這段時間我其實看到無論是賴總統包括卓院長包括郭部長都時常的表達對於深度節能的期望這部分我想大家都看到了"},{"start":72.602,"end":94.189,"text":"議員長"},{"start":94.684,"end":116.834,"text":"我必須說,其實我在讀完這份8月的這份計畫的內容以後,就是我現在可以拿得到的資料,我確實感覺目前的這個計畫的內容,跟卓院長也好,或賴總統,也包括郭部長,其實在媒體前面談到的這個期望,我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差。"},{"start":119.025,"end":134.439,"text":"這段時間我們其實也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論也希望能夠再給目前的這個方案一些更多積極性正面的這個建議所以在這邊我想來跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論那院長很清楚其實台灣並不是"},{"start":135.646,"end":161.71,"text":"我們第一天或第一年來推動節能,其實大概有十幾二十年的時間,臺灣都在推動節能。 那我們過去其實也花了蠻多的預算,在做一些單一設備的汰換,比方說很多的節能的冷氣、冰箱,那在工業裡面也包括很多節能的設備、機台等等等,其實我們過去也花了很多資源在汰換。 那這些做法其實當然都會有一些初步的成果。"},{"start":162.674,"end":179.592,"text":"那最近我看總統院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO就是這個我們節能技術服務產業來協助我們的工作那這絕對是一個對的方向可是現在同時也是這一群產業界的朋友一直想要提醒"},{"start":180.529,"end":205.41,"text":"如果要做到真正的深度節能的話就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次那他們都提出一個非常重要的建議喔他們說如果要做到深度節能那麼政府的政策或者政府的補助應該是要讓節能績效越好的人能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持也就是要看績效"},{"start":206.724,"end":214.546,"text":"報告委員我非常贊同您的這個指教這個表現在節能上面表現越好的人我們一定會給他incentive那至於這個incentive要怎麼做當然我們會跟這個委員或者跟產業的這一些朋友"},{"start":234.672,"end":252.378,"text":"所以部長我在這份計畫裡面我們當然現在看到了一些你對於大小大中小用戶的分類這也是對的可是大概絕大部分的計畫資源還是都是在擺在單一設備的設備補助裡面在這個計畫裡面還是看到這件事情"},{"start":253.078,"end":276.677,"text":"那這件事應該做,我也不反對做這件事情,但不能只做這件事情。部長報告委員,我想那一份資料可能是比較舊一點。我們在8月底9月初的時候,我們就已經有稍微在修正了。那麼修正當然是根據這個院長的這個指示。那我們現在先從大的"},{"start":277.5,"end":279.622,"text":"部長 我要說的事情是你做用戶的分類這事情我贊成"},{"start":297.506,"end":300.388,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":316.861,"end":334.63,"text":"這件事情就是我們要說你怎麼樣走來評估你的績效我怎麼樣來給資源一個最關鍵的一個核心的概念尤其是尤其是很多的這個能資訊管理系統的部分所以不然我確實在這份內容就目前這是因為我這10月的時候"},{"start":335.47,"end":362.224,"text":"在跟這個相關部會要求請他們提供的資料目前還是沒有那麼看到這一點的東西所以很希望這個部分能夠先把它放進去部長這應該沒有問題吧沒有問題謝謝這個委員我們不斷的在update這個資料因為我們現在主要還是能源系統的這個改變當然您指教的非常好我們現在跟國外的這個業者也在討論怎麼樣引進這個好的這個系統技術進來"},{"start":365.586,"end":379.186,"text":"我們現在是以大代小跟您報告就譬如說我們在中鋼或者我們在中油然後它的整個供應鏈我們是從中鋼做然後它整個供應鏈在這個一套供應鏈來實施這個深度決能"},{"start":380.848,"end":396.186,"text":"部長我現在所以我說的說我們這不是只是對大的也不是只是對中鋼我們是要對現在的產業業界怎麼協助他們把系統性能效的績效評估的方法客觀科學的建立起來以後包括"},{"start":396.847,"end":411.238,"text":"銀行要融資,它也要一個績效評估的方法,它也要一個財務評估的方法,這都是基礎,這是第一點。第二點我要跟部長講到,很重要的事情大家都提到,如果要把系統性節能給做好的話,我們就需要有用電大數據的data。"},{"start":412.119,"end":426.826,"text":"那這個大數據的data來做深入分析才能把改善的問題點給找到那這是很多SQO業者都共同的心聲那但是現在這個擴大data應用的部分坦白說在這份資料裡面也看不太到"},{"start":427.466,"end":431.432,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":444.71,"end":446.831,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":464.889,"end":479.998,"text":"以防說建築節能是我們內政部在管的可是好像在這裡面也沒有看到建築節能的部分那也包括我們很多節能的產業包括節能計畫他需要融資他需要很多財務的方案這部分國發會或金管會"},{"start":480.538,"end":480.558,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":502.953,"end":523.462,"text":"希望其他部會有更大的程度來支持深度節能的工作,所以這部分也希望院長可以看到,也包括現在的地方政府,在這裡面也看不到地方政府的角色,在國際上面大家都知道節能很重要關鍵的角色是地方政府,但地方政府也沒有進來在這份計畫的內容裡面,所以這些種種我們大概提了一個這個建議,希望院長"},{"start":524.582,"end":539.578,"text":"可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下有沒有可能在優化我們目前方案的空間也包括把我們接下來要修農能源管理法能源管理法裡面把上述的這些建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求"},{"start":540.359,"end":541.7,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":556.952,"end":559.713,"text":"我們在產業新條例草案上面第10條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資遞減項目"},{"start":580.865,"end":600.843,"text":"部長我這邊是在幫你爭取啦希望其他的部會可以更加的大力的支持啦那這部分也希望院長可以來支持跟有一個這樣子清楚的指示我剛有做過統合的一些會議請簡單解答跟委員報告一下喔您剛才提到的建築綠色金融我們全部都放在永續會議裡面都有列觀那我們現在也有在會議在整合"},{"start":601.654,"end":629.733,"text":"經濟部長跟我談過好幾次這個深度減能的部分我建議如果我們要有一個深度減能的方案的話這應該是要有一個跨部會的方案該放進來的我們應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓這樣子那再來一個事情我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題其實最近颱風過後我們有許多關於防災治水的討論那其實我想讓院長知道目前其實也有很多關於減災防洪治水的一些新的做法"},{"start":630.433,"end":654.819,"text":"那我一般可能叫做淨自然工法那這部分也希望讓院長知道簡單來說這個所謂淨自然工法的意思就是不再只是求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化這過去其實也產生了很多的問題可能會造成河道的下切或者是水泥構造物被破壞所以你就不斷的要用新的工程一再反覆的甚至被績效這叫做永續工程做不完的工程啦"},{"start":655.279,"end":682.222,"text":"五年就要做一次五年就要投資一次資源那這幾年其實經濟部跟農業部他們其實也透過這個禁自然工法的導入已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要的示範案例其實在國內外都非常有名包括像在花蓮的蝙蜥包括在新北貢寮的遠望坑溪包括南投種花坑溪目前的案例其實已經越來越多我自己也都到現場去看過其實真的做得非常好"},{"start":682.842,"end":706.072,"text":"所以這個做法我想跟院長講,這個做法其實有很多好處。 第一個,安全的防洪減災,這是沒有問題的。 第二個,農民取水灌溉也能夠穩定,這都被驗證了。 再來,枯水期可以不斷流,也能夠恢復棲地的生態。 最重要的事情是,他的經費常常只要那種水泥化的工程的二分之一,而且他可以撐的時間可能更長。"},{"start":706.812,"end":721.572,"text":"在經費預算上面都有好處所以院長我想請問你覺得像這種能夠兼顧多營我這邊的投影片寫說五個願望幾乎是一次滿足你要安全減災你要看經費你要不斷流你要生態富裕"},{"start":722.941,"end":736.538,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":739.602,"end":765.049,"text":"今年修了,上半年修,下半年又壞,颱風來又壞,大水來又壞,能夠從有系統性的治水,從上游整治,一直到下游能夠排出,這樣整個系統來處理,我希望能夠朝這個方向來做,謝謝委員提供這個。 議長我覺得不管是經濟部、水利署或者是農業部也好,我覺得都應該更大程度來參考這個淨自然工法,我這邊有幾個期待啦。 議長其實最近我們看到行政院也在籌組水及流域永續的小組,"},{"start":766.75,"end":781.629,"text":"我目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來做召集我自己很希望我們能夠把這個河川復育的工作跟目標可以放入到這個永續推動小組這是一個院級的小組我目前知道是政委有開過會了"},{"start":782.91,"end":802.964,"text":"那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個作為一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張"},{"start":804.145,"end":818.921,"text":"我們看到其實包括像美國他們有所謂的健康流域計畫他們有幾個重要的地景、地形、棲地、水質、水溫、生態狀態幾個很重要的指標來評估什麼樣是一個健康的流域我們希望能夠參考這些國際上面的做法"},{"start":819.281,"end":847.298,"text":"那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說"},{"start":848.399,"end":874.969,"text":"未來4年,我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川,達成這個所謂河川富裕的工作,去一步一步的完成剛才說健康流域的指標。那這個政策的目標如果出來的話,不管是農業部,不管是經濟部,下面的相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向做,我們就可以有一個新的治水,或者是新的水治理的一個新的局面,用的經費也更少,反而更健康。"},{"start":876.159,"end":903.147,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是有關你剛才所提到的一個河川的覆域裡面其實他是用流域的概念從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川的部分然後上游的野溪的部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計到符合生態的一個規範的一個施工的工法但是一個工法的改善會在跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念我們會去訂出大概年度上我們需要處理多少個"},{"start":904.428,"end":931.689,"text":"部長在觀念上面我想大家都討論過但我們現在希望有一個具體的政策目標在這個政策目標之下才能夠展開大家的執行跟績效的確認所以希望有個這個政策目標能夠包括現在行政院有一個小組嘛能用這個平台來做一個政策目標的規劃然後我們看我們能夠在這幾年可以有多少的進展有多少的溪流能夠更進一步的做到河川富裕這是我們的期望啦可以嗎院長"},{"start":937.654,"end":937.944,"text":"謝謝。"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:51:05 - 16:06:43","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155391,"gazette":{"lineno":1348,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（15時51分）謝謝韓院長，請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：院長午安。因為時間的關係，我就直接進入重點，院長，我看到您在很多地方，也包括這個會期的施政報告，都有提到會大力推動二次的能源轉型，尤其是深度節能的部分，這部分我想大家都非常非常認同，這是很重要的政策方向。我去年在杜拜參加了聯合國氣候變遷大會，裡面也講了這兩個重要的方向，一個是要全力發展再生能源，另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率。所以這段時間我也看到，無論是賴總統，包括卓院長，包括郭部長，都時常表達對於深度節能的期望，這部分我想大家都看到了。","當然在今年8月的時候，我也看到經濟部跟能源署提出一份深度節能推動計畫，然後送到行政院會來做一些報告，所以院長對於這個計畫的內容應該也有一些了解，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我必須說，其實我在讀完8月這份計畫的內容以後，就我現在可以拿得到的資料來看，我確實感覺目前這個計畫的內容，跟卓院長也好，或賴總統，包括郭部長在媒體前面談到的這個期望，我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差，所以這段時間我們也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論，也希望能夠再給目前這個方案一些更多積極性、正面性的建議，所以在這邊，我想跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論。","院長很清楚，其實臺灣並不是第一天或第一年來推動節能，大概有十幾二十年的時間，臺灣都在推動節能，我們過去也花了滿多的預算，在做一些單一設備的汰換，比方說很多節能的冷氣、冰箱；在工業部分，也包括很多節能的設備、機臺等等。其實我們過去也花了很多資源在做汰換，這些做法當然都會有一些初步的成果，最近我看總統、院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO，就是我們的節能技術服務產業，來協助我們相關的工作，這絕對是一個對的方向。","可是現在同時也是這一群產業界朋友一直想要提醒的，如果要做到真正的深度節能，就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次，他們都提出一個非常重要的建議。他們認為如果要做到深度節能，政府的政策或者政府的補助，應該是要讓節能績效越好的人，能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持，也就是要看績效，不是只是單純你換一個設備，我就給你一筆錢，這是他們共同的建議，我不知道院長、部長同不同意這些產業界專家們的這個看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我非常贊同您的指教，在節能上面表現越好的人，我們一定會給他\nincentive，至於這個incentive要怎麼做？當然，我們會跟委員、跟產業界朋友來交換意見。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我在這份計畫裡面……"],["郭部長智輝：看不到。"],["洪委員申翰：我們現在看到了一些對於大、中、小用戶的分類，這是對的，可是絕大部分的計畫資源還是擺在單一設備的設備補助裡，在這個計畫還是看到這件事情，這件事情是該做，我也不反對，但不能只做這件事情，部長！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想那份資料可能比較舊一點，在8月底、9月初時，我們就已經有稍微再修正，這當然是根據院長的指示修正。我們現在先從大的國營機構開始處理，並可能在下兩個禮拜公告，請院長來看，目前我們有三大醫院，從中選一家醫院讓大家看。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要說的是，做用戶分類我贊成，哪些優先，這個我都贊成。重點是，我覺得產業界對於怎麼樣把生態系建立起來的建議，希望部會應該聽進去。大家都表達了很重要的一點，即建立所謂系統性的能效，包括績效評估，還有驗證的方法。就這件事情來說，其實是怎麼評估績效、怎麼給資源的最關鍵核心概念，尤其在很多能源資訊管理系統的部分。所以部長，我確實在這份內容……這是我10月向相關部會要求，請他們提供的資料，但目前還是沒能看到這一點，因此很希望這部分能先放進去。部長，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有問題，謝謝委員！其實我們不斷在update資料……"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們現在主要還是在能源系統的改變，剛才您指教得非常好，我們現在跟國外業者也在討論怎麼樣引進好的系統技術進來！跟您報告，我們現在是以大帶小，譬如我們在中鋼或者中油，它的整個供應鏈……我們是從中鋼做，由它的一套供應鏈來實施深度節能。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我現在要說的是，這不只是對大的，也不只是對中鋼，我們是要協助現在的產業界把系統性能效的績效評估方法，以客觀科學建立起來……"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["洪委員申翰：之後包括銀行融資，也要有績效評估方法，也要有財務評估方法，這都是基礎，這是第一點。第二點，我要跟部長講到一件很重要的事情，大家都提到如果要把系統性節能做好，就需要有用電大數據data，以這個大數據data來做深入分析，才能把改善的問題點找到，這是很多ESCO業者的共同心聲。但在擴大data應用部分，坦白說，在這份資料裡也看不太到！現在這些data都在台電，因此產業界很希望台電能協助用電data的數據統整分析，當然，要顧到個資跟商業秘密的保障，這是一定的。但是請台電承擔下這些data數據的統整工作，給業界做節能的最大支持，這就像AI一樣，我們要有足夠大量的data導入，才有辦法找到最有效率跟最好的方法，道理其實沒有差很多，這部分也是大家的心聲。","最後，講到深度節能的工作，現在好像只有經濟部在做，比方建築節能是內政部在管的，可是在這裡面沒有看到建築節能的部分。其實很多節能產業、節能計畫需要融資、需要很多財務方案，這部分國發會或金管會也扮演很重要的角色，也希望能更大力支持；環境部最近在訂碳費，這些基礎費率如果可以創造出差別誘因，也會對廠商投入節能建立很大的誘因，但這些事情都需要跨部會合作，所以院長，深度節能計畫不能只有經濟部在做！這些跨部會的工作整合……部長，我這是在幫你爭取，希望其他部會要更大程度來支持深度節能的工作，所以這部分也希望院長可以看到。包括地方政府，現在在這裡面看不到地方政府的角色！在國際上，大家都知道節能很重要，但關鍵的角色是地方政府，只是這份計畫內容地方政府並沒有進來。凡此種種，我們提了一項建議，希望院長可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下，有沒有可能再優化目前方案的空間，也包括接下來要修正的能源管理法，希望能把上述建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求，所以這幾個部分也是今天為什麼在這邊跟院長來做討論，因為這可能真的不只是經濟部的事情，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，在內政部包括關於建築的部分，還有在金管會包括綠色金融的部分，我們都有其他的考量，只是沒有把它放在這個裡面。"],["洪委員申翰：對，我們在這邊其實看不到這些內容……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，都有討論。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這部分再麻煩院長……"],["郭部長智輝：我們在產業創新條例草案的第十條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資抵減的項目，從過去10億，現在提高到18億的金額，先跟委員報告。"],["洪委員申翰：是，部長，我這邊是在幫你爭取啦，希望其他部會可以更加大力支持，這部分也希望院長可以支持，並給出清楚的指示。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：國發會有做過統合會議，請主委簡單答復。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，您剛剛提到的建築、綠色金融，我們全部都放在永續會裡面，都有列管，我們現在也會再整合，經濟部長跟我談過好幾次深度節能的部分，所以我們都有在討論。"],["洪委員申翰：是，我建議如果我們要有深度節能方案的話，這應該是要有跨部會的方案，該放進來的應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓。"],["郭部長智輝：我想非常抱歉……"],["洪委員申翰：再來，我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題。其實最近颱風過後，我們有許多關於防災治水的討論，我想讓院長知道，目前其實也有很多關於減災、防洪、治水的新作法，一般稱為近自然工法，這部分也希望讓院長知道。簡單來說，所謂近自然工法的意思就是，不再只求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化，這在過去其實也產生了很多問題，可能會造成河道下切、水泥構造物被破壞，所以就不斷的要用新工程一再反覆，甚至被譏笑這叫做永續工程，就是做不完的工程啦，5年就要做一次，5年就要投資一次資源！","這幾年經濟部跟農業部也透過近自然工法的導入，已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要示範案例，其實在國內外都非常有名，包括花蓮的鱉溪、新北貢寮的遠望坑溪及南投的種瓜坑溪，目前的案例其實已經越來越多，我自己也到現場去看過，其實真的做得非常好。所以我想跟院長說，這個作法其實有很多好處，第一個，安全地防洪減災，這是沒有問題的。第二個，農民取水灌溉也能穩定，這都被驗證了。再來，枯水期可以不斷流，也能夠恢復棲地生態，最重要的事情是它的經費常常只要水泥化工程的二分之一，而且可以撐的時間可能更長，在經費預算上都有好處。院長，我想請問，你覺得像這種能兼顧多贏，我這邊投影片寫的是五個願望幾乎一次滿足，要安全減災、要砍經費、要不斷流、要生態復育都可以做得到的作法，我們是不是有可能更大程度來做鼓勵？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，跟委員報告，明年的治水預算我增加了159億，達到551億，那時候增加這個預算就是希望朝──也許不是這麼具體，我們是希望朝不要今年上半年修了下半年又壞、颱風來又壞、大水來又壞，而是能夠系統性的治水，從上游整治一直到下游能夠排出，這樣整個系統性的來處理，我希望朝這個方向來做，謝謝委員提供這樣的想法。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我覺得不管是經濟部水利署或農業部也好，都應該更大程度的參考這個近自然工法。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我這邊有幾個期待，院長，最近我們看到行政院也在籌組「水及流域永續推動小組」，目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來召集，我自己很希望我們能夠把河川復育的工作跟目標放入到這個永續推動小組，這是一個院級的小組，我目前所知道的是政委有開過會了，請副院長來督導，來更大程度推動這個近自然工法，這很需要由行政院的高度，因為這是跨部會的，可能包括經濟部，可能包括農業部，以這個做為重要目標，讓剛剛提到的這幾個多贏效果都能夠達成。因為我們看到在國際上，像美國有所謂的健康流域計畫，用包括地景、地形、棲地、水質、水文、生態狀態這幾個重要指標來評估什麼樣是一條健康流域，我們希望能參考這些國際上的做法，把剛剛所說的河川復育的目標放到那個工作小組，跟現在部會在推動的，包括剛剛院長說的我們新增一百多億的治水預算，都應該用這個新做法、新思維去往前走，而不一定只停留在過去一味的水泥化的狀態，這是在這邊想要提醒院長的。院長，我想問，我們能不能替……尤其是包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川復育有一個政策上的目標，比方說，未來4年我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川達成所謂河川復育的工作，去一步步的完成剛剛所說的健康流域指標，這個政策目標如果出來的話，不管是農業部，不管是經濟部，下面相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向去做，我們就可以有一個新的治水或新的水治理的新局面，用的經費也更少，反而更健康。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告一下，有關於您剛才所提到的河川復育，其實是用流域的概念，從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川部分……"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["陳部長駿季：然後上游的野溪部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計符合生態規範的施工工法，那是工法的改善……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我同意……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念去訂出年度上需要處理多少條野溪……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，在觀念上面，我想大家都討論過，但我們現在希望能有個具體的政策目標，在這個政策目標之下，才能展開大家的執行跟績效的確認，所以希望有個政策目標。行政院現在也有個小組嘛，能用這個平臺去做政策目標的規劃，然後看我們能夠在這幾年有多少的進展，有多少條溪流能更進一步的做到河川復育，這是我們的期望啦，可以嗎，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請兩位部長把今天委員的建議帶到小組裡面去做充分的討論。"],["洪委員申翰：好，先跟院長謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長跟相關首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第13位賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}}