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0.936}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 387.095, \"end\": 388.036, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 388.036, \"end\": 388.456, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 388.456, \"end\": 389.476, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 389.476, \"end\": 389.716, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 389.716, \"end\": 389.937, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 389.937, \"end\": 389.957, \"score\": 0.513}, {\"word\": \"區\"}]}, {\"start\": 390.797, \"end\": 398.746, \"text\": \"那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。 舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。 請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 390.797, \"end\": 391.118, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 391.118, \"end\": 391.338, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"阻\", \"start\": 391.338, \"end\": 391.698, \"score\": 0.915}, 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00:01:21,736\n國土計劃法,立法院的聲音是最真實的。朝野超過70幾位以上的委員都贊成要延後來施行。\n\n4\n00:01:28,634 --> 00:01:53,689\n國土計劃法是在第8屆的時候通過的,當時本席就是第一位提案的委員,當初是邱文彥委員,他也是本席的好朋友,他提出來,我是第一個連署的。當時這個案有邱文彥委員,還有林淑芬委員以及行政院三個版本,\n\n5\n00:01:57,820 --> 00:02:18,110\n當初邱文彥委員的提案委員剩下本席跟蘇清泉委員。林淑芬委員的提案委員目前到11屆還有8位。其實本席講這一段就是要表達我們都是支持國土計劃法。\n\n6\n00:02:19,190 --> 00:02:45,306\n而且這個理想崇高的這樣的一個國土計畫我們都非常認同因為我們當初第8屆就是憂慮國土殘破被破壞殘破不堪而且沒有規劃的這種憂慮所以我們才會這樣子支持而且提案來促成這個國土計畫但是過去8年在整個的推動\n\n7\n00:02:46,987 --> 00:02:57,476\n實施的過程﹖不算實施﹖推動的過程﹖不知道出了什麼問題﹖乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共事﹖\n\n8\n00:02:58,516 --> 00:03:23,012\n在上個會期到這個會期目前有十幾位的朝野立委都提出來希望可以延後首先本席想請教院長現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙表面上我們看到九個縣市沒有交功能分區圖實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎?\n\n9\n00:03:24,833 --> 00:03:30,455\n對農民的傷害太大所以大家會覺得說我們這個國土計劃法他整個的配套各方面考量還不夠\n\n10\n00:03:52,163 --> 00:04:12,268\n就要施行的話對農民傷害太大所以首先第一個本席要特別請問院長如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物那當然條件是不夠的對但是目前我們的農業發展區尤其第一類第二類\n\n11\n00:04:13,410 --> 00:04:14,430\n現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式\n\n12\n00:04:33,638 --> 00:04:34,619\n所以部長的意思是現況這種情況是有改善嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:55,946 --> 00:05:11,339\n對,就是過去的特農的地區會一直持續地去建設這種水源的進入但是現在我們在各縣市,甚至本席所在的縣市,我們發現這個問題沒有解決\n\n14\n00:05:13,726 --> 00:05:30,626\n二、有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題?因為農民也非常憂慮,氣候變遷有的時候今天的糧田經過一個颱風或是一個氣候各方面的變化,我可能也是就會發生沒有水源而荒廢。\n\n15\n00:05:31,627 --> 00:06:00,241\n可是農民恐慌他覺得農一農二一劃定終生這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎?我跟委員報告不管是劃在農一或農又就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的跟現在是一模一樣的部分所以後續的我們對於農民本身的一些支持也是一樣的那有差異的就是像您說的如果劃在農一的時候他沒有水源的話我們會優先去興建\n\n16\n00:06:01,081 --> 00:06:29,957\n所以你畫在農業的話我們更希望它是一個集團的一個栽培那是不是你新建確定OK你才實施還是你國土計畫法實施了它就是沒有水源這一塊你們要去思考接著本席要講第三點因為時間的關係我們現在農業經營的形式多元所以國土計畫法實施以後呢大多數的農業休閒地區或農場它會被畫為國土保育區\n\n17\n00:06:30,797 --> 00:06:38,746\n那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:50,225 --> 00:07:17,583\n我認為比例會非常非常低大概多少?你猜一下我不敢猜,比例會非常低對,不到10%所以有沒有配套措施來確保我們這個它的經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃特別就是說,農業經營高附加價值以及多元化不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎?那國土計畫法對這個好像無視\n\n19\n00:07:21,505 --> 00:07:39,410\n農業不只是生產而已,農業還有農村,所以我們在整個國家希望工程裡面,我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。那特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分,是未來在我們的鄉規、鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節。\n\n20\n00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:45,471\n接著本席這個是這個行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題那接著本席要特別在替農民發聲就是\n\n21\n00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:09,420\n徐欣瑩\n\n22\n00:08:39,889 --> 00:09:06,444\n我們的農民他們都很有熱忱而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業但是農民無法單兵作戰剛剛部長也有講到農民需要的是政府的支持、支援作為後盾所以剛剛您說的農村的規劃發展現代化農業的基礎建設還有它的這種產銷管道的整合其實都是穩定農民農業的最基礎\n\n23\n00:09:09,565 --> 00:09:36,978\n但是在整個國土計畫施行起來呢﹖我們感覺農民他獨自承擔他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任這個不公平因為有的時候我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解現在沒有錯有些地方政府這個分區圖送上來有些沒有送可是基層有些送上來可能連基層他都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施\n\n24\n00:09:39,961 --> 00:10:06,736\n這個就是跟我們本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過我們的部長不能像這個教改啊教改你跟那個現實面你第一線的你都不了解那所以現在農民呢他們當然也很擔心這個剛剛提的一化定終生一化變永恆那變成他們的整個被限制住那\n\n25\n00:10:07,957 --> 00:10:25,302\n民眾、農民對政府也不是很有信心,也怕政府欺騙他,所以農民有他的困境。農民看天吃飯,我想院長跟部長都知道,收成不穩定,那即便大豐收,他也有可能被壓低收購價格。\n\n26\n00:10:26,582 --> 00:10:40,372\n那所以呢農民也面臨務農人口流失所以我們的國土計劃法保護農地沒有保障農民權益這樣是不行的所以是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償\n\n27\n00:10:45,616 --> 00:11:08,236\n國土計劃實施與否另一件事我們已經持續針對整個的農民或是基礎建設我們有一套完整的包括還有金融的支持還有一些對地給付的這些堆疊的方式包括生態的部分我們已經有完善的一個推動現在已經在推動現在已經在推動那未來在國土計劃在做區隔以後\n\n28\n00:11:08,656 --> 00:11:32,185\n我們會針對特定的區位有一個比較更多的像生態給付的部分我們會做一些提高我們希望整個配套完善才上路老實說10月才推動真的太慢了不是我們我剛才講的這些支持性的這些包括基礎建設包括金融支持包括設施設備的一個補助其實我們多年來一直在做\n\n29\n00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:47,777\n本席也要請教院長,針對這第一個議題我要趕快結束了。我們這個整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案,包含修法。\n\n30\n00:11:49,346 --> 00:12:12,527\n而且國土我要特別跟院長來提醒國土計劃計劃的是全國全民的國土農民何其沉重要擔此重任我們一定要為農民做好最完善的不管他未來的保育的補償還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決\n\n31\n00:12:13,612 --> 00:12:40,439\n所以院長可以嗎?身為一個行政院的院長,我本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實謙卑的面對問題。所以我們希望為了國家的永續,國土計劃法可以來施行。請院長審慎的考慮是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案。我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲,但是\n\n32\n00:12:41,840 --> 00:13:02,233\n明明就有13個縣市送過來了,我也必須對這13個縣市要有所了解,因為在國土計劃法45條裡面,它又說全國要一併公告,也不能割裂,所以現在這個當中,但是您說的,如果要對國土計劃內容做檢討修法的話,那是一個方向,但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。\n\n33\n00:13:03,254 --> 00:13:21,714\n現在問題所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案,我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題,這個大議題相信很多委員也提過,就是桃竹苗大矽谷計劃。\n\n34\n00:13:23,015 --> 00:13:27,578\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n35\n00:13:51,141 --> 00:14:19,168\n很多人都知道我們這個科技整個要發展尤其AI它用電量是非常非常大的本期在整個大細股計畫裡沒有看到新增的有相對應電力的規劃尤其其中有一個科學園區三期整個台灣科學園區新竹科學園區那現在又有科學園區三期\n\n36\n00:14:21,191 --> 00:14:42,887\n這個大矽谷計畫它可以說是過去我們有台積電護國神山,未來如果能夠整個發展起來發展得好,那是護國群山,台灣的護國群山。所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦?很多的公司,我把解完,很多的公司它為了能夠配合國際的規範,它都買綠電。\n\n37\n00:14:44,068 --> 00:14:45,028\n徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩\n\n38\n00:15:04,514 --> 00:15:06,635\n所以靠儲能就有辦法,有沒有考慮核能?\n\n39\n00:15:31,769 --> 00:15:31,869\n徐欣瑩\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18777\t23002\t謝謝院長 本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n31969\t61435\t徐委員好卓院長好今天本席有15分鐘會跟院長討論兩大議題第一大議題呢給院長猜一下是本屆朝野共識最高不用吃和解飯呢就有高度共識的一個議題也是一個修正的法案您猜看看我會認為是體育局運動發展部\n65966\t81736\t國土計劃法,立法院的聲音是最真實的。 朝野超過70幾位以上的委員都贊成要延後來施行。\n88634\t113689\t國土計劃法是在第8屆的時候通過的,當時本席就是第一位提案的委員,當初是邱文彥委員,他也是本席的好朋友,他提出來,我是第一個連署的。當時這個案有邱文彥委員,還有林淑芬委員以及行政院三個版本,\n117820\t138110\t當初邱文彥委員的提案委員 剩下本席跟蘇清泉委員。林淑芬委員的提案委員目前到11屆還有8位。其實本席講這一段就是要表達我們都是支持國土計劃法。\n139190\t165306\t而且這個理想崇高的這樣的一個國土計畫我們都非常認同因為我們當初第8屆就是憂慮國土殘破被破壞殘破不堪而且沒有規劃的這種憂慮所以我們才會這樣子支持而且提案來促成這個國土計畫但是過去8年在整個的推動\n166987\t177476\t實施的過程﹖不算實施﹖推動的過程﹖不知道出了什麼問題﹖ 乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共事﹖\n178516\t203012\t在上個會期到這個會期目前有十幾位的朝野立委都提出來希望可以延後首先本席想請教院長現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙表面上我們看到九個縣市沒有交功能分區圖實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎?\n204833\t210455\t對農民的傷害太大所以大家會覺得說我們這個國土計劃法他整個的配套各方面考量還不夠\n232163\t252268\t就要施行的話對農民傷害太大所以首先第一個本席要特別請問院長如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物那當然條件是不夠的對但是目前我們的農業發展區尤其第一類第二類\n253410\t254430\t現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式\n273638\t274619\t所以部長的意思是現況這種情況是有改善嗎?\n295946\t311339\t對,就是過去的特農的地區 會一直持續地去建設這種水源的進入但是現在我們在各縣市,甚至本席所在的縣市,我們發現這個問題沒有解決\n313726\t330626\t二、有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題?因為農民也非常憂慮,氣候變遷有的時候今天的糧田經過一個颱風或是一個氣候各方面的變化,我可能也是就會發生沒有水源而荒廢。\n331627\t360241\t可是農民恐慌他覺得農一農二一劃定終生這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎?我跟委員報告不管是劃在農一或農又就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的跟現在是一模一樣的部分所以後續的我們對於農民本身的一些支持也是一樣的那有差異的就是像您說的如果劃在農一的時候他沒有水源的話我們會優先去興建\n361081\t389957\t所以你畫在農業的話我們更希望它是一個集團的一個栽培那是不是你新建確定OK你才實施還是你國土計畫法實施了它就是沒有水源這一塊你們要去思考接著本席要講第三點因為時間的關係我們現在農業經營的形式多元所以國土計畫法實施以後呢大多數的農業休閒地區或農場它會被畫為國土保育區\n390797\t398746\t那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。 舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。 請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?\n410225\t437583\t我認為比例會非常非常低大概多少?你猜一下我不敢猜,比例會非常低對,不到10%所以有沒有配套措施來確保我們這個它的經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃特別就是說,農業經營高附加價值以及多元化不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎?那國土計畫法對這個好像無視\n441505\t459410\t農業不只是生產而已,農業還有農村,所以我們在整個國家希望工程裡面,我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。那特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分,是未來在我們的鄉規、鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節。\n460410\t465471\t接著本席這個是這個行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題那接著本席要特別在替農民發聲就是\n489360\t489420\t徐欣瑩\n519889\t546444\t我們的農民他們都很有熱忱而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業但是農民無法單兵作戰剛剛部長也有講到農民需要的是政府的支持、支援作為後盾所以剛剛您說的農村的規劃發展現代化農業的基礎建設還有它的這種產銷管道的整合其實都是穩定農民農業的最基礎\n549565\t576978\t但是在整個國土計畫施行起來呢﹖我們感覺農民他獨自承擔他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任這個不公平因為有的時候我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解現在沒有錯有些地方政府這個分區圖送上來有些沒有送可是基層有些送上來可能連基層他都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施\n579961\t606736\t這個就是跟我們本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過我們的部長不能像這個教改啊教改你跟那個現實面你第一線的你都不了解那所以現在農民呢他們當然也很擔心這個剛剛提的一化定終生一化變永恆那變成他們的整個被限制住那\n607957\t625302\t民眾、農民對政府也不是很有信心,也怕政府欺騙他,所以農民有他的困境。 農民看天吃飯,我想院長跟部長都知道,收成不穩定,那即便大豐收,他也有可能被壓低收購價格。\n626582\t640372\t那所以呢 農民也面臨務農人口流失 所以我們的國土計劃法保護農地沒有保障農民權益 這樣是不行的 所以是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償\n645616\t668236\t國土計劃實施與否另一件事我們已經持續針對整個的農民或是基礎建設我們有一套完整的包括還有金融的支持還有一些對地給付的這些堆疊的方式包括生態的部分我們已經有完善的一個推動現在已經在推動現在已經在推動那未來在國土計劃在做區隔以後\n668656\t692185\t我們會針對特定的區位有一個比較更多的像生態給付的部分我們會做一些提高我們希望整個配套完善才上路老實說10月才推動真的太慢了不是我們我剛才講的這些支持性的這些包括基礎建設包括金融支持包括設施設備的一個補助其實我們多年來一直在做\n693170\t707777\t本席也要請教院長,針對這第一個議題我要趕快結束了。我們這個整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案,包含修法。\n709346\t732527\t而且國土我要特別跟院長來提醒 國土計劃計劃的是全國全民的國土 農民何其沉重要擔此重任我們一定要為農民做好最完善的 不管他未來的保育的補償還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決\n733612\t760439\t所以院長可以嗎?身為一個行政院的院長,我本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實謙卑的面對問題。所以我們希望為了國家的永續,國土計劃法可以來施行。請院長審慎的考慮是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案。我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲,但是\n761840\t782233\t明明就有13個縣市送過來了,我也必須對這13個縣市要有所了解,因為在國土計劃法45條裡面,它又說全國要一併公告,也不能割裂,所以現在這個當中,但是您說的,如果要對國土計劃內容做檢討修法的話,那是一個方向,但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。\n783254\t801714\t現在問題所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案,我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題,這個大議題相信很多委員也提過,就是桃竹苗大矽谷計劃。\n803015\t807578\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n831141\t859168\t很多人都知道我們這個科技整個要發展尤其AI它用電量是非常非常大的本期在整個大細股計畫裡沒有看到新增的有相對應電力的規劃尤其其中有一個科學園區三期整個台灣科學園區新竹科學園區那現在又有科學園區三期\n861191\t882887\t這個大矽谷計畫它可以說是過去我們有台積電護國神山,未來如果能夠整個發展起來發展得好,那是護國群山,台灣的護國群山。所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦?很多的公司,我把解完,很多的公司它為了能夠配合國際的規範,它都買綠電。\n884068\t885028\t徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩\n904514\t906635\t所以靠儲能就有辦法,有沒有考慮核能?\n931769\t931869\t徐欣瑩\n","txt":"謝謝院長 本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n徐委員好卓院長好今天本席有15分鐘會跟院長討論兩大議題第一大議題呢給院長猜一下是本屆朝野共識最高不用吃和解飯呢就有高度共識的一個議題也是一個修正的法案您猜看看我會認為是體育局運動發展部\n國土計劃法,立法院的聲音是最真實的。 朝野超過70幾位以上的委員都贊成要延後來施行。\n國土計劃法是在第8屆的時候通過的,當時本席就是第一位提案的委員,當初是邱文彥委員,他也是本席的好朋友,他提出來,我是第一個連署的。當時這個案有邱文彥委員,還有林淑芬委員以及行政院三個版本,\n當初邱文彥委員的提案委員 剩下本席跟蘇清泉委員。林淑芬委員的提案委員目前到11屆還有8位。其實本席講這一段就是要表達我們都是支持國土計劃法。\n而且這個理想崇高的這樣的一個國土計畫我們都非常認同因為我們當初第8屆就是憂慮國土殘破被破壞殘破不堪而且沒有規劃的這種憂慮所以我們才會這樣子支持而且提案來促成這個國土計畫但是過去8年在整個的推動\n實施的過程﹖不算實施﹖推動的過程﹖不知道出了什麼問題﹖ 乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共事﹖\n在上個會期到這個會期目前有十幾位的朝野立委都提出來希望可以延後首先本席想請教院長現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙表面上我們看到九個縣市沒有交功能分區圖實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎?\n對農民的傷害太大所以大家會覺得說我們這個國土計劃法他整個的配套各方面考量還不夠\n就要施行的話對農民傷害太大所以首先第一個本席要特別請問院長如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物那當然條件是不夠的對但是目前我們的農業發展區尤其第一類第二類\n現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式\n所以部長的意思是現況這種情況是有改善嗎?\n對,就是過去的特農的地區 會一直持續地去建設這種水源的進入但是現在我們在各縣市,甚至本席所在的縣市,我們發現這個問題沒有解決\n二、有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題?因為農民也非常憂慮,氣候變遷有的時候今天的糧田經過一個颱風或是一個氣候各方面的變化,我可能也是就會發生沒有水源而荒廢。\n可是農民恐慌他覺得農一農二一劃定終生這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎?我跟委員報告不管是劃在農一或農又就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的跟現在是一模一樣的部分所以後續的我們對於農民本身的一些支持也是一樣的那有差異的就是像您說的如果劃在農一的時候他沒有水源的話我們會優先去興建\n所以你畫在農業的話我們更希望它是一個集團的一個栽培那是不是你新建確定OK你才實施還是你國土計畫法實施了它就是沒有水源這一塊你們要去思考接著本席要講第三點因為時間的關係我們現在農業經營的形式多元所以國土計畫法實施以後呢大多數的農業休閒地區或農場它會被畫為國土保育區\n那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。 舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。 請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?\n我認為比例會非常非常低大概多少?你猜一下我不敢猜,比例會非常低對,不到10%所以有沒有配套措施來確保我們這個它的經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃特別就是說,農業經營高附加價值以及多元化不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎?那國土計畫法對這個好像無視\n農業不只是生產而已,農業還有農村,所以我們在整個國家希望工程裡面,我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。那特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分,是未來在我們的鄉規、鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節。\n接著本席這個是這個行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題那接著本席要特別在替農民發聲就是\n徐欣瑩\n我們的農民他們都很有熱忱而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業但是農民無法單兵作戰剛剛部長也有講到農民需要的是政府的支持、支援作為後盾所以剛剛您說的農村的規劃發展現代化農業的基礎建設還有它的這種產銷管道的整合其實都是穩定農民農業的最基礎\n但是在整個國土計畫施行起來呢﹖我們感覺農民他獨自承擔他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任這個不公平因為有的時候我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解現在沒有錯有些地方政府這個分區圖送上來有些沒有送可是基層有些送上來可能連基層他都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施\n這個就是跟我們本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過我們的部長不能像這個教改啊教改你跟那個現實面你第一線的你都不了解那所以現在農民呢他們當然也很擔心這個剛剛提的一化定終生一化變永恆那變成他們的整個被限制住那\n民眾、農民對政府也不是很有信心,也怕政府欺騙他,所以農民有他的困境。 農民看天吃飯,我想院長跟部長都知道,收成不穩定,那即便大豐收,他也有可能被壓低收購價格。\n那所以呢 農民也面臨務農人口流失 所以我們的國土計劃法保護農地沒有保障農民權益 這樣是不行的 所以是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償\n國土計劃實施與否另一件事我們已經持續針對整個的農民或是基礎建設我們有一套完整的包括還有金融的支持還有一些對地給付的這些堆疊的方式包括生態的部分我們已經有完善的一個推動現在已經在推動現在已經在推動那未來在國土計劃在做區隔以後\n我們會針對特定的區位有一個比較更多的像生態給付的部分我們會做一些提高我們希望整個配套完善才上路老實說10月才推動真的太慢了不是我們我剛才講的這些支持性的這些包括基礎建設包括金融支持包括設施設備的一個補助其實我們多年來一直在做\n本席也要請教院長,針對這第一個議題我要趕快結束了。我們這個整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案,包含修法。\n而且國土我要特別跟院長來提醒 國土計劃計劃的是全國全民的國土 農民何其沉重要擔此重任我們一定要為農民做好最完善的 不管他未來的保育的補償還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決\n所以院長可以嗎?身為一個行政院的院長,我本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實謙卑的面對問題。所以我們希望為了國家的永續,國土計劃法可以來施行。請院長審慎的考慮是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案。我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲,但是\n明明就有13個縣市送過來了,我也必須對這13個縣市要有所了解,因為在國土計劃法45條裡面,它又說全國要一併公告,也不能割裂,所以現在這個當中,但是您說的,如果要對國土計劃內容做檢討修法的話,那是一個方向,但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。\n現在問題所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案,我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題,這個大議題相信很多委員也提過,就是桃竹苗大矽谷計劃。\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n很多人都知道我們這個科技整個要發展尤其AI它用電量是非常非常大的本期在整個大細股計畫裡沒有看到新增的有相對應電力的規劃尤其其中有一個科學園區三期整個台灣科學園區新竹科學園區那現在又有科學園區三期\n這個大矽谷計畫它可以說是過去我們有台積電護國神山,未來如果能夠整個發展起來發展得好,那是護國群山,台灣的護國群山。所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦?很多的公司,我把解完,很多的公司它為了能夠配合國際的規範,它都買綠電。\n徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩\n所以靠儲能就有辦法,有沒有考慮核能?\n徐欣瑩\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.777 --> 00:23.002\n謝謝院長本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:31.969 --> 01:01.435\n徐委員好卓院長好今天本席有15分鐘會跟院長討論兩大議題第一大議題呢給院長猜一下是本屆朝野共識最高不用吃和解飯呢就有高度共識的一個議題也是一個修正的法案您猜看看我會認為是體育局運動發展部\n\n01:05.966 --> 01:21.736\n國土計劃法,立法院的聲音是最真實的。朝野超過70幾位以上的委員都贊成要延後來施行。\n\n01:28.634 --> 01:53.689\n國土計劃法是在第8屆的時候通過的,當時本席就是第一位提案的委員,當初是邱文彥委員,他也是本席的好朋友,他提出來,我是第一個連署的。當時這個案有邱文彥委員,還有林淑芬委員以及行政院三個版本,\n\n01:57.820 --> 02:18.110\n當初邱文彥委員的提案委員剩下本席跟蘇清泉委員。林淑芬委員的提案委員目前到11屆還有8位。其實本席講這一段就是要表達我們都是支持國土計劃法。\n\n02:19.190 --> 02:45.306\n而且這個理想崇高的這樣的一個國土計畫我們都非常認同因為我們當初第8屆就是憂慮國土殘破被破壞殘破不堪而且沒有規劃的這種憂慮所以我們才會這樣子支持而且提案來促成這個國土計畫但是過去8年在整個的推動\n\n02:46.987 --> 02:57.476\n實施的過程﹖不算實施﹖推動的過程﹖不知道出了什麼問題﹖乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共事﹖\n\n02:58.516 --> 03:23.012\n在上個會期到這個會期目前有十幾位的朝野立委都提出來希望可以延後首先本席想請教院長現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙表面上我們看到九個縣市沒有交功能分區圖實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎?\n\n03:24.833 --> 03:30.455\n對農民的傷害太大所以大家會覺得說我們這個國土計劃法他整個的配套各方面考量還不夠\n\n03:52.163 --> 04:12.268\n就要施行的話對農民傷害太大所以首先第一個本席要特別請問院長如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物那當然條件是不夠的對但是目前我們的農業發展區尤其第一類第二類\n\n04:13.410 --> 04:14.430\n現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式\n\n04:33.638 --> 04:34.619\n所以部長的意思是現況這種情況是有改善嗎?\n\n04:55.946 --> 05:11.339\n對,就是過去的特農的地區會一直持續地去建設這種水源的進入但是現在我們在各縣市,甚至本席所在的縣市,我們發現這個問題沒有解決\n\n05:13.726 --> 05:30.626\n二、有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題?因為農民也非常憂慮,氣候變遷有的時候今天的糧田經過一個颱風或是一個氣候各方面的變化,我可能也是就會發生沒有水源而荒廢。\n\n05:31.627 --> 06:00.241\n可是農民恐慌他覺得農一農二一劃定終生這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎?我跟委員報告不管是劃在農一或農又就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的跟現在是一模一樣的部分所以後續的我們對於農民本身的一些支持也是一樣的那有差異的就是像您說的如果劃在農一的時候他沒有水源的話我們會優先去興建\n\n06:01.081 --> 06:29.957\n所以你畫在農業的話我們更希望它是一個集團的一個栽培那是不是你新建確定OK你才實施還是你國土計畫法實施了它就是沒有水源這一塊你們要去思考接著本席要講第三點因為時間的關係我們現在農業經營的形式多元所以國土計畫法實施以後呢大多數的農業休閒地區或農場它會被畫為國土保育區\n\n06:30.797 --> 06:38.746\n那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?\n\n06:50.225 --> 07:17.583\n我認為比例會非常非常低大概多少?你猜一下我不敢猜,比例會非常低對,不到10%所以有沒有配套措施來確保我們這個它的經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃特別就是說,農業經營高附加價值以及多元化不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎?那國土計畫法對這個好像無視\n\n07:21.505 --> 07:39.410\n農業不只是生產而已,農業還有農村,所以我們在整個國家希望工程裡面,我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。那特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分,是未來在我們的鄉規、鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節。\n\n07:40.410 --> 07:45.471\n接著本席這個是這個行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題那接著本席要特別在替農民發聲就是\n\n08:09.360 --> 08:09.420\n徐欣瑩\n\n08:39.889 --> 09:06.444\n我們的農民他們都很有熱忱而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業但是農民無法單兵作戰剛剛部長也有講到農民需要的是政府的支持、支援作為後盾所以剛剛您說的農村的規劃發展現代化農業的基礎建設還有它的這種產銷管道的整合其實都是穩定農民農業的最基礎\n\n09:09.565 --> 09:36.978\n但是在整個國土計畫施行起來呢﹖我們感覺農民他獨自承擔他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任這個不公平因為有的時候我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解現在沒有錯有些地方政府這個分區圖送上來有些沒有送可是基層有些送上來可能連基層他都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施\n\n09:39.961 --> 10:06.736\n這個就是跟我們本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過我們的部長不能像這個教改啊教改你跟那個現實面你第一線的你都不了解那所以現在農民呢他們當然也很擔心這個剛剛提的一化定終生一化變永恆那變成他們的整個被限制住那\n\n10:07.957 --> 10:25.302\n民眾、農民對政府也不是很有信心,也怕政府欺騙他,所以農民有他的困境。農民看天吃飯,我想院長跟部長都知道,收成不穩定,那即便大豐收,他也有可能被壓低收購價格。\n\n10:26.582 --> 10:40.372\n那所以呢農民也面臨務農人口流失所以我們的國土計劃法保護農地沒有保障農民權益這樣是不行的所以是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償\n\n10:45.616 --> 11:08.236\n國土計劃實施與否另一件事我們已經持續針對整個的農民或是基礎建設我們有一套完整的包括還有金融的支持還有一些對地給付的這些堆疊的方式包括生態的部分我們已經有完善的一個推動現在已經在推動現在已經在推動那未來在國土計劃在做區隔以後\n\n11:08.656 --> 11:32.185\n我們會針對特定的區位有一個比較更多的像生態給付的部分我們會做一些提高我們希望整個配套完善才上路老實說10月才推動真的太慢了不是我們我剛才講的這些支持性的這些包括基礎建設包括金融支持包括設施設備的一個補助其實我們多年來一直在做\n\n11:33.170 --> 11:47.777\n本席也要請教院長,針對這第一個議題我要趕快結束了。我們這個整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案,包含修法。\n\n11:49.346 --> 12:12.527\n而且國土我要特別跟院長來提醒國土計劃計劃的是全國全民的國土農民何其沉重要擔此重任我們一定要為農民做好最完善的不管他未來的保育的補償還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決\n\n12:13.612 --> 12:40.439\n所以院長可以嗎?身為一個行政院的院長,我本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實謙卑的面對問題。所以我們希望為了國家的永續,國土計劃法可以來施行。請院長審慎的考慮是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案。我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲,但是\n\n12:41.840 --> 13:02.233\n明明就有13個縣市送過來了,我也必須對這13個縣市要有所了解,因為在國土計劃法45條裡面,它又說全國要一併公告,也不能割裂,所以現在這個當中,但是您說的,如果要對國土計劃內容做檢討修法的話,那是一個方向,但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。\n\n13:03.254 --> 13:21.714\n現在問題所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案,我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題,這個大議題相信很多委員也提過,就是桃竹苗大矽谷計劃。\n\n13:23.015 --> 13:27.578\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n13:51.141 --> 14:19.168\n很多人都知道我們這個科技整個要發展尤其AI它用電量是非常非常大的本期在整個大細股計畫裡沒有看到新增的有相對應電力的規劃尤其其中有一個科學園區三期整個台灣科學園區新竹科學園區那現在又有科學園區三期\n\n14:21.191 --> 14:42.887\n這個大矽谷計畫它可以說是過去我們有台積電護國神山,未來如果能夠整個發展起來發展得好,那是護國群山,台灣的護國群山。所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦?很多的公司,我把解完,很多的公司它為了能夠配合國際的規範,它都買綠電。\n\n14:44.068 --> 14:45.028\n徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩\n\n15:04.514 --> 15:06.635\n所以靠儲能就有辦法,有沒有考慮核能?\n\n15:31.769 --> 15:31.869\n徐欣瑩\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.777,"end":23.002,"text":"謝謝院長 本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":31.969,"end":61.435,"text":"徐委員好卓院長好今天本席有15分鐘會跟院長討論兩大議題第一大議題呢給院長猜一下是本屆朝野共識最高不用吃和解飯呢就有高度共識的一個議題也是一個修正的法案您猜看看我會認為是體育局運動發展部"},{"start":65.966,"end":81.736,"text":"國土計劃法,立法院的聲音是最真實的。 朝野超過70幾位以上的委員都贊成要延後來施行。"},{"start":88.634,"end":113.689,"text":"國土計劃法是在第8屆的時候通過的,當時本席就是第一位提案的委員,當初是邱文彥委員,他也是本席的好朋友,他提出來,我是第一個連署的。當時這個案有邱文彥委員,還有林淑芬委員以及行政院三個版本,"},{"start":117.82,"end":138.11,"text":"當初邱文彥委員的提案委員 剩下本席跟蘇清泉委員。林淑芬委員的提案委員目前到11屆還有8位。其實本席講這一段就是要表達我們都是支持國土計劃法。"},{"start":139.19,"end":165.306,"text":"而且這個理想崇高的這樣的一個國土計畫我們都非常認同因為我們當初第8屆就是憂慮國土殘破被破壞殘破不堪而且沒有規劃的這種憂慮所以我們才會這樣子支持而且提案來促成這個國土計畫但是過去8年在整個的推動"},{"start":166.987,"end":177.476,"text":"實施的過程﹖不算實施﹖推動的過程﹖不知道出了什麼問題﹖ 乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共事﹖"},{"start":178.516,"end":203.012,"text":"在上個會期到這個會期目前有十幾位的朝野立委都提出來希望可以延後首先本席想請教院長現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙表面上我們看到九個縣市沒有交功能分區圖實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎?"},{"start":204.833,"end":210.455,"text":"對農民的傷害太大所以大家會覺得說我們這個國土計劃法他整個的配套各方面考量還不夠"},{"start":232.163,"end":252.268,"text":"就要施行的話對農民傷害太大所以首先第一個本席要特別請問院長如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物那當然條件是不夠的對但是目前我們的農業發展區尤其第一類第二類"},{"start":253.41,"end":254.43,"text":"現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式"},{"start":273.638,"end":274.619,"text":"所以部長的意思是現況這種情況是有改善嗎?"},{"start":295.946,"end":311.339,"text":"對,就是過去的特農的地區 會一直持續地去建設這種水源的進入但是現在我們在各縣市,甚至本席所在的縣市,我們發現這個問題沒有解決"},{"start":313.726,"end":330.626,"text":"二、有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題?因為農民也非常憂慮,氣候變遷有的時候今天的糧田經過一個颱風或是一個氣候各方面的變化,我可能也是就會發生沒有水源而荒廢。"},{"start":331.627,"end":360.241,"text":"可是農民恐慌他覺得農一農二一劃定終生這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎?我跟委員報告不管是劃在農一或農又就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的跟現在是一模一樣的部分所以後續的我們對於農民本身的一些支持也是一樣的那有差異的就是像您說的如果劃在農一的時候他沒有水源的話我們會優先去興建"},{"start":361.081,"end":389.957,"text":"所以你畫在農業的話我們更希望它是一個集團的一個栽培那是不是你新建確定OK你才實施還是你國土計畫法實施了它就是沒有水源這一塊你們要去思考接著本席要講第三點因為時間的關係我們現在農業經營的形式多元所以國土計畫法實施以後呢大多數的農業休閒地區或農場它會被畫為國土保育區"},{"start":390.797,"end":398.746,"text":"那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。 舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。 請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?"},{"start":410.225,"end":437.583,"text":"我認為比例會非常非常低大概多少?你猜一下我不敢猜,比例會非常低對,不到10%所以有沒有配套措施來確保我們這個它的經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃特別就是說,農業經營高附加價值以及多元化不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎?那國土計畫法對這個好像無視"},{"start":441.505,"end":459.41,"text":"農業不只是生產而已,農業還有農村,所以我們在整個國家希望工程裡面,我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。那特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分,是未來在我們的鄉規、鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節。"},{"start":460.41,"end":465.471,"text":"接著本席這個是這個行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題那接著本席要特別在替農民發聲就是"},{"start":489.36,"end":489.42,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":519.889,"end":546.444,"text":"我們的農民他們都很有熱忱而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業但是農民無法單兵作戰剛剛部長也有講到農民需要的是政府的支持、支援作為後盾所以剛剛您說的農村的規劃發展現代化農業的基礎建設還有它的這種產銷管道的整合其實都是穩定農民農業的最基礎"},{"start":549.565,"end":576.978,"text":"但是在整個國土計畫施行起來呢﹖我們感覺農民他獨自承擔他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任這個不公平因為有的時候我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解現在沒有錯有些地方政府這個分區圖送上來有些沒有送可是基層有些送上來可能連基層他都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施"},{"start":579.961,"end":606.736,"text":"這個就是跟我們本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過我們的部長不能像這個教改啊教改你跟那個現實面你第一線的你都不了解那所以現在農民呢他們當然也很擔心這個剛剛提的一化定終生一化變永恆那變成他們的整個被限制住那"},{"start":607.957,"end":625.302,"text":"民眾、農民對政府也不是很有信心,也怕政府欺騙他,所以農民有他的困境。 農民看天吃飯,我想院長跟部長都知道,收成不穩定,那即便大豐收,他也有可能被壓低收購價格。"},{"start":626.582,"end":640.372,"text":"那所以呢 農民也面臨務農人口流失 所以我們的國土計劃法保護農地沒有保障農民權益 這樣是不行的 所以是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償"},{"start":645.616,"end":668.236,"text":"國土計劃實施與否另一件事我們已經持續針對整個的農民或是基礎建設我們有一套完整的包括還有金融的支持還有一些對地給付的這些堆疊的方式包括生態的部分我們已經有完善的一個推動現在已經在推動現在已經在推動那未來在國土計劃在做區隔以後"},{"start":668.656,"end":692.185,"text":"我們會針對特定的區位有一個比較更多的像生態給付的部分我們會做一些提高我們希望整個配套完善才上路老實說10月才推動真的太慢了不是我們我剛才講的這些支持性的這些包括基礎建設包括金融支持包括設施設備的一個補助其實我們多年來一直在做"},{"start":693.17,"end":707.777,"text":"本席也要請教院長,針對這第一個議題我要趕快結束了。我們這個整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案,包含修法。"},{"start":709.346,"end":732.527,"text":"而且國土我要特別跟院長來提醒 國土計劃計劃的是全國全民的國土 農民何其沉重要擔此重任我們一定要為農民做好最完善的 不管他未來的保育的補償還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決"},{"start":733.612,"end":760.439,"text":"所以院長可以嗎?身為一個行政院的院長,我本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實謙卑的面對問題。所以我們希望為了國家的永續,國土計劃法可以來施行。請院長審慎的考慮是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案。我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲,但是"},{"start":761.84,"end":782.233,"text":"明明就有13個縣市送過來了,我也必須對這13個縣市要有所了解,因為在國土計劃法45條裡面,它又說全國要一併公告,也不能割裂,所以現在這個當中,但是您說的,如果要對國土計劃內容做檢討修法的話,那是一個方向,但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。"},{"start":783.254,"end":801.714,"text":"現在問題所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案,我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題,這個大議題相信很多委員也提過,就是桃竹苗大矽谷計劃。"},{"start":803.015,"end":807.578,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":831.141,"end":859.168,"text":"很多人都知道我們這個科技整個要發展尤其AI它用電量是非常非常大的本期在整個大細股計畫裡沒有看到新增的有相對應電力的規劃尤其其中有一個科學園區三期整個台灣科學園區新竹科學園區那現在又有科學園區三期"},{"start":861.191,"end":882.887,"text":"這個大矽谷計畫它可以說是過去我們有台積電護國神山,未來如果能夠整個發展起來發展得好,那是護國群山,台灣的護國群山。所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦?很多的公司,我把解完,很多的公司它為了能夠配合國際的規範,它都買綠電。"},{"start":884.068,"end":885.028,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":904.514,"end":906.635,"text":"所以靠儲能就有辦法,有沒有考慮核能?"},{"start":931.769,"end":931.869,"text":"徐欣瑩"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:33:36 - 16:49:20","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155393,"gazette":{"lineno":1457,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（16時33分）謝謝院長，本席有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：卓院長好。今天本席有15分鐘會跟院長討論兩大議題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：第一大議題給院長猜一下，是本屆朝野共識最高，不用吃和解飯就有高度共識的一個議題，也是一個修正的法案，您猜看看。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會認為是體育及運動發展部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，這樣子啊！好，是國土計畫法。關於國土計畫法，立法院的聲音是最真實的，朝野超過七十幾位以上的委員都贊成要延後施行。院長，您可能不知道國土計畫法是在第8屆的時候通過的，當時本席就是第一位提案的委員，當初是邱文彥委員提出來的，他也是本席的好朋友，我是第一個連署的，當時這個案子有邱文彥委員、林淑芬委員及行政院三個版本，到現在第11屆，邱文彥委員提案的連署委員就只剩下本席跟蘇清泉委員，林淑芬委員提案的連署委員到第11屆還有8位。本席講這一段就是要表達我們都是支持國土計畫法的，而且對這個理想崇高的國土計畫法，我們都非常認同，當初我們第8屆就是憂慮國土被破壞、殘破不堪，而且沒有規劃，才會支持提案來促成國土計畫法。但是在過去8年整個推動的過程中不知道出了什麼問題，乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共識，從上個會期到這個會期已有十幾位朝野立委都提出來，希望可以延後。首先，本席想請教院長，現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙，表面上我們看到有9個縣市沒有交功能分區圖，實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可能對如何劃定所有的農地沒有辦法達成一致，所以想參考其他的縣市，希望能夠有更合理的規劃，或許是這樣吧。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，就是因為對農民的傷害太大，所以大家會覺得如果這個國土計畫法的整個配套還有各方面的考量還不夠，就要施行的話，對農民傷害太大。所以，第一個本席要特別請問院長，如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物？"],["卓院長榮泰：那當然條件是不夠的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們的農業發展區尤其第一類、第二類，一定要有好的水源，可是目前在各縣市甚至農業大縣有很多沒有水源的土地，卻被劃為農一跟農二，這就是規劃失當。"],["卓院長榮泰：請農業部說明一下，現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就是我們在做圳路跟水源的供給，我們知道過去灌區內有31萬、灌區外有24萬是沒有水源的，但現在已經越來越多有灌區的水源供應。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以部長的意思是現況是有改善嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是過去的特農地區……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那您要深入去了解。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會持續的去建設這種水源的圳路。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是現在各縣市甚至本席所在的縣市，我們發現這個問題沒有解決。","第二個就是有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題？農民也非常憂慮，因為氣候變遷的關係，有的時候今天的良田經過一個颱風或一個氣候各方面的變化，可能就會發生沒有水源而荒廢的狀況，農民會恐慌，是因為他覺得農一、農二一劃定終身，這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，不管是劃在農一或農二，就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的，跟現在是一模一樣的，所以後續我們對於農民本身的支持也是一樣的，有差異的就是像您說的，如果劃在農一，它沒有水源的話，我們會優先去興建，所以農地被劃在農一的話，我們更希望它是一個集團栽培。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那是不是興建確定OK，你才實施，還是國土計畫法實施了，它就是沒有水源？這一塊你們要去思考。接著本席要講第三點，因為時間的關係，我們現在農業經營的形式多元，所以國土計畫法實施以後，大多數的農業休閒地區或農場會被劃為國土保育區，這就阻礙了高產值休閒農場的發展模式。舉例來說，根據今年3月的統計，臺灣有2,129個露營區，請問卓院長，這2,129個露營區，您知道其中合法的露營區有多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為比例會非常非常低。"],["徐委員欣瑩：大概多少？你猜一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我不敢猜，比例應該非常低。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不到10%。所以有沒有配套措施，確保其經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃？特別是農業經營高附加價值以及多元化，不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎？國土計畫法對於這個，好像無視於此。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農業不只是生產而已……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["陳部長駿季：農業還有農村，所以在整個國家希望工程裡面，我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然。"],["陳部長駿季：特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分，是未來在我們的鄉規──鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節，它會把……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：一些農業以外的產業能夠帶到農村，吸引我們的青年農業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在本席講的就是，國土計畫法已經要上路、施行了，這些你有沒有考慮進去？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農業的一些政策，它不會因為國土計畫而有延後。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果可以你再回復給我，本席這是行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題。","接著本席要特別再替農民發聲，我們農民感到非常不平的就是，都市計畫下的10萬公頃農地可以作為城鄉發展區，但是整個國家要糧食安全、農業生產，國家永續的責任就由少數農業縣的農民、農地承擔，這個不公平啊！等於我們政府把責任甩鍋給農民，這是第一點。","第二點，我們農民都很有熱誠，而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業，但是農民無法單兵作戰，剛剛部長也講到，農民需要的是政府的支持、資源作為後盾。所以剛剛您說農村的規劃發展現代化、農業的基礎建設還有它產銷管道的整合，其實都是穩定農民、農業最基礎的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是整個國土計畫施行起來，我們感覺農民獨自承擔，他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任，這個不公平！因為有的時候，我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解，現在沒有錯，有些地方政府有把這個分區圖送上來，有些沒有送，可是有些送上來的，可能連基層都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施，這就跟我們……本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過部長，不能像教改，教改跟現實面，第一線的你都不了解，所以現在農民當然也很擔心，剛剛提的一劃定終身、一劃變永恆，變成他們整個被限制住；農民對政府也不是很有信心，也怕政府欺騙他。所以農民有他的困境，農民看天吃飯，我想院長跟部長都知道，收成不穩定，即便大豐收，他也有可能被壓低收購價格，所以農民也面臨務農人口流失。因此我們的國土計畫法保護農地，沒有保障農民權益，這樣是不行的，是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償可以實施？有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，其實國土計畫實施與否，那是另外一件事情，我們已經持續針對整個農民或基礎建設有一套完整的還包括金融支持，以及一些對地給付這些堆疊的方式，包括生態部分，我們已經有完善的推動，現在已經在推動了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在推動了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在已經在推動，未來國土計畫做區隔以後，我們會針對特定的區位有更多像生態給付的部分，做一些提高。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望整個配套完善才上路，老實說，10月才推動真的太慢了！真的太慢。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我剛才講的這些支持性的，包括基礎建設，包括金融支持，包括設施設備的補助，其實我們多年來一直在做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席也要請教院長，針對這第一個議題，我要趕快結束，我們這整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整、變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案，包含修法？而且我要特別跟院長提醒，國土計畫計畫的是全國全民的國土，農民何其沉重要擔此重任！我們一定要為農民做好最完善的配套，不管未來的保育補償，還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決，院長，可以嗎？身為一個行政院的院長，本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實、謙卑的面對問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們希望為了國家的永續，國土計畫法可以來施行，請院長審慎的考慮，是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲，但是明明就有13個縣市送過來了，我也必須要對這13個縣市有所瞭解，因為在國土計畫法第四十五條裡面又說，全國要一併公告，也不能割裂，所以現在陷在這個當中，至於您說的，如果對國土計畫內容做檢討要修法的話，那是一個方向，但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，現在的問題，所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案，我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。","接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題，這個大議題相信很多委員也提過，就是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，這裡面也包含了竹科三期的計畫，尤其以新竹縣市為中心，向北（桃園）向南（苗栗）來延伸，希望這個未來會是匯聚半導體以及AI人工智慧等尖端科技人才，而且希望讓桃竹苗可以媲美美國的矽谷、亞利桑那等全球最重要的半導體及創新科技聚落。很多人都知道，我們的科技要發展，尤其AI，它的用電量是非常非常大的，但是本席在整個大矽谷計畫裡沒有看到新增相對應的電力規劃，尤其其中又有一個科學園區三期，整個臺灣科學園區有新竹科學園區，現在又有科學園區三期，這個大矽谷計畫可以說過去我們有護國神山台積電，未來如果能夠整個發展起來、發展得好，那是臺灣的護國群山，所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦？很多的公司……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我把它講完。很多的公司為了能夠配合國際的規範都買綠電，可是綠電在晚上很可能會沒有辦法，所以就仰賴火力發電，這個部分相信院長、部長都知道……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，晚上的部分，我們用儲電來解決。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在夜間缺電的情況很嚴重。"],["郭部長智輝：晚上的部分，我們用儲電來解決。"],["徐委員欣瑩：用什麼電？"],["郭部長智輝：儲電，儲能電。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你儲能，但是到晚上綠電的儲能現在有辦法儲存多少？"],["郭部長智輝：有啊……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，因為這是國發會在規劃的，我們在整體的配套，包括水和電，都有跟經濟部做過充分的討論，我們對未來用電的需求，包括綠電也都規劃好了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以靠儲能就有辦法，有沒有考慮核能？會不會考慮？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我們列入參考。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們考慮綠能，所以綠電的需求……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝，未來我們考慮、參考。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來15號莊瑞雄委員、16號賴瑞隆委員、17號陳亭妃委員、18號吳琪銘委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員莊瑞雄書面質詢：","一、電價漲幅，產業電價調漲後，經濟如何解？","經濟部於9月底召開113年第2次電價審議，目前住宅與小商店部分累計電價級距不調整，有望紓解民生用電調漲疑慮，然產業用電仍有高達12.5%漲幅，主要恐影經營成本、部分企業外移風險以及產業投資意願等，且企業還需考量碳費等不同的經營成本下，現行對產業結構的影響評估下，建請電價審議小組日後，應審慎評估，並與環境部偕同對碳費收費情況等多方協調，有助提升我國產業競爭力。","二、電網韌性需更切實","近年來應受極端氣候影響，跳電斷電次數頻繁，有鑒於經濟部針對電力系統與儲能提升計劃中，應針對間歇性再生能源大幅提升風險評估更確實，包含電網強化以及不同能源併網調度疑慮，需要整體規劃與提升，以便產業鏈在面對產業電價調升、碳費增加以及減碳措施等其他不同成本增加下，因應國際競爭高強度壓力，政府應更妥善的扮演產業界開疆闢土的後盾。"],["委員陳亭妃書面質詢：","案由：","本院陳亭妃委員，鑒於因應國際能源原物料上漲，加上地緣政治風險增加造成價格波動，為維持台電公司正常營運，我國產業用電電價於近期進行價格調整。本席要求經濟部針對產業用電電價調整必須儘速提出相關因應措施，以降低電價上漲後，對於我國重要產業之營運衝擊及避免通膨風險加劇對民生所造成之影響。","說明：","一、鑒於產業用電電價於近期調漲，恐衝擊我國重要產業例如半導體業、AI相關產業及重要傳統產業等之營運成本及未來發展。經濟部及台灣電力公司應審慎規畫後續各項產業之細部調整內容，報請電價審議委員會進行調整，並研擬相關配套措施保障民生經濟之穩定，避免加劇通膨風險，造成物價劇烈波動，民眾生活成本大增。","二、本席要求貴單位於一個月內提交相關書面報告至辦公室。"],["委員吳琪銘書面質詢：","三峽長福橋改建工程","三峽祖師廟旁的長福橋改建工程，這造橋啟用到今已將近四十年，不但橋體老舊嚴重破壞三峽河的景觀，且橋墩裸露，大大危害防洪安全。橫跨三峽河的長福橋，於108年列為優先改建橋梁，工程總經費約新台幣9.19億元，其中，經濟部水利署補助4.5億元。","相信長福橋一旦改建完成，除了能繼續帶來大量的觀光客與商機可以恢復我們三峽河的往日風華，也可以為三峽老街觀光帶來更大的周邊效益。這和我們政府大力振興在地觀光產業的政策是一致的。","而在今年2月已封閉舊橋拆除改建，橋梁動工之後因為工期長達600天，影響在地居民通行，更對往返的長輩造成困擾，臨時通行便橋將於今年8月底開放，提供民眾通行使用。部長再麻煩緊盯進度，保障民眾最低限度的通行權利，也兼顧橋梁的施工進度與品質。部長為了工程順利如期在115年完工，是否能全力配合協助？"],["主席：接下來請登記第19號何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}}