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{\"start\": 228.75, \"end\": 254.126, \"text\": \"我跟委員報告,您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分,國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理。現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。然後第二個部分就是,國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 228.75, \"end\": 228.85, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 228.85, \"end\": 228.97, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 228.97, \"end\": 229.29, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 229.29, \"end\": 229.51, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 229.51, \"end\": 229.71, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 229.71, \"end\": 230.031, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 230.031, \"end\": 230.111, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 230.111, \"end\": 230.471, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 230.471, \"end\": 230.631, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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00:00:53,349\n馬文君\n\n4\n00:01:14,784 --> 00:01:14,984\n馬文君\n\n5\n00:01:44,764 --> 00:01:58,613\n森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在,除非它已經損壞掉了,你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法,它有一個82721,如果在這個時間之前,\n\n6\n00:02:00,114 --> 00:02:00,754\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n7\n00:02:30,495 --> 00:02:49,827\n行水區域其實是比較小的可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係它越來越大然後可能也在這麼長的時間幾十年或者甚至上百年其實它的位置已經有位移那你在劃河川線的時候其實很多人他原來本來是私有地甚至是建地\n\n8\n00:02:50,467 --> 00:02:53,611\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n9\n00:03:08,450 --> 00:03:32,903\n我想請教一下那時候我們在108年為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家那時候因為早期台灣的發展尤其是中小企業都是大家可能自己家戶自己去推動發展一直到現在他可能具有一些相關的規模或者在農地上存在的這些工廠他在105年的時候我們還特別修法讓他通過\n\n10\n00:03:38,266 --> 00:03:38,427\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n11\n00:03:48,750 --> 00:04:14,126\n我跟委員報告,您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分,國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理。現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。然後第二個部分就是,國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃。\n\n12\n00:04:15,327 --> 00:04:38,803\n那個有些你在森林法裡面它很多就是在林地上面它不會是聚落,如果像你像國土計畫我們國產署裡面有很多也不是在聚落裡面啊,所以跟我們的聚落是無關的,現在有很多它其實就是分散的,所以沒有辦法像部長說的這個是可以解決,不可能,如果可以解決之前就會解決了。\n\n13\n00:04:39,884 --> 00:05:03,858\n所以他要變更其實是更加的困難,所以這個部分不像部長想的那麼容易。接下來還…第二個部分就是公服法的部分,那以公服法的部分的一個執行跟現在不管你化為農一農二,那原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠他已經納管以後,那以非屬低污染的部分我們會持續的輔導。\n\n14\n00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:22,189\n那除非他是高度污染的我們才會讓他簽上在農業地區大概有1100多家我們知道我們知道他是低污染的才可以符合那至少如果說還有這1000多家我想請教一下因為你在國土計畫法推行以後其實他在第38條\n\n15\n00:05:25,211 --> 00:05:37,495\n從事未符合國土功能分區及分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者,由該管職銜市縣市主管機關處行為人新台幣100萬以上500萬以下罰款。\n\n16\n00:05:41,378 --> 00:05:48,329\n這個接下來第二條第二項第二款也是相關的就是如果沒有按照這樣的情況他處30萬以上100萬150萬以下相關的38條全部都是罰則而且\n\n17\n00:05:56,581 --> 00:05:59,322\n國土計畫法施行以後,它就是沒有按照這樣的相關的規定在使用這個塊土地。它如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠,你說它是可以不用法的嗎?\n\n18\n00:05:59,322 --> 00:06:00,102\n這是在哪裡我們看不到啊,在國土計畫法裡面我們看不到。\n\n19\n00:06:23,148 --> 00:06:24,549\n國土計畫實施以後除非你是新增的違規\n\n20\n00:06:53,768 --> 00:06:53,908\n馬文君\n\n21\n00:07:09,218 --> 00:07:09,258\n馬文君\n\n22\n00:07:39,198 --> 00:07:39,378\n哪一條?\n\n23\n00:07:55,035 --> 00:08:15,120\n哪一條?國土計畫法裡面從來已經使用的是哪一條?因為我們已經有把它全部看過,就是如果已經有衝突,你在這裡你第38條的法則裡面很清楚的寫到,如果沒有依照你的分區使用的這樣相關的規定,它就是要罰。\n\n24\n00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:44,787\n我跟委員報告我會後可以提供你就是國土計畫有一個非常大的精神就是保障從來是使用的部長部長我們所有我們在我們民主法治的國家然後你要修這個法你要施行我們還是希望他在法裡面可以清除的這個在法裡面有規範如果可以的話那些公服法裡面的工廠那他們也可以啊他們存在已經好幾十年本來是違規的還是違規不是說違規的在那個國土計畫完以後就變成合法的\n\n25\n00:08:45,421 --> 00:09:04,902\n不是啊當然不是可是你是衝突的嘛我現在就是說你今天我們在105年成立的這個公服法以這個來看他現在你本來應該要給他20年的時間可是現在顯然如果他在農一農二上面因為現在更去嚴格以前可能用公服法去\n\n26\n00:09:05,683 --> 00:09:06,964\n這個跟委員報告,就是農民合法的權利不會受到影響。\n\n27\n00:09:29,595 --> 00:09:38,283\n這個在農業用地裡面﹖我們已經把它納進﹖內政部納進國土計劃法的施行審査草案裡面說沒有﹖合法的使用我們沒有意見﹖我現在講的是其他的﹖你為什麼會訂森林法58527﹖為什麼會訂國產法82721﹖為什麼會訂公福法說讓他20年﹖可以讓他在低污染的情況之下﹖可以去辦理合法登記﹖給他20年的時間﹖\n\n28\n00:09:57,259 --> 00:10:15,913\n就是因為在這一段時間裡面其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料因為有些人在民國20年甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡那時候沒有國民政府那時候那塊土地沒有編訂沒有地號人家已經住在那裡所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的我們後來\n\n29\n00:10:17,754 --> 00:10:18,395\n我強調一下是合法的才會有保障喔\n\n30\n00:10:46,254 --> 00:10:46,294\n馬文君\n\n31\n00:11:01,934 --> 00:11:02,214\n法定人數不足\n\n32\n00:11:31,390 --> 00:11:55,226\n農地、農一、農二就是表示現在上面都是種東西的啦你政府政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候你都有辦法讓它變成合法可是人家早已經存在的你現在沒有辦法幫他解決你倉促的施行你就會造成很多人無家可歸或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠那違背了當初你公福法通過的一個精神\n\n33\n00:11:55,726 --> 00:12:04,211\n如果說你有納管的時候,就會讓他隨著納管的部分,除非你沒有被納管的部分。國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他非法以後國土計畫完了以後會變成合法,沒有這一條。\n\n34\n00:12:10,694 --> 00:12:33,253\n本來就沒有這一條,部長你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎?工福法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來在農地上面,事實上是還有這些,可是你的事,你沒有在法上面把它指出來,所以你讓大家知道,讓所有全體如果有這樣子工廠違規使用,可是你應該要給他選擇,選擇我們。另外,\n\n35\n00:12:37,659 --> 00:12:53,975\n不用釐清把法給我們就好了因為你說有嘛你說可以保障嘛你要讓大家知道而且讓大家放心接下來我想要請教的是像經濟部在組無人機的聯盟希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元\n\n36\n00:13:00,822 --> 00:13:11,579\n經濟部日前也宣誓成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟,希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展。我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做?\n\n37\n00:13:12,618 --> 00:13:35,369\n報告委員,我們現在的聯盟是由漢翔為主,臺灣的供應鏈大概有50家,技術是由工研院來接收。我們對美國跟對日本這兩個市場拋出我們合作的方向。跟委員報告,這兩個國家到2028年,\n\n38\n00:13:40,211 --> 00:13:47,842\n大概整個市場可以來到台幣大概5000億,所以我們認為要達到這個2028年要達到300億應該是可以努力的。\n\n39\n00:13:52,743 --> 00:14:12,930\n部長因為我想這是理想可是臺灣要建構這樣子的一個環境我覺得不困難臺灣的不管在我們所有的所有的量能所有我們的技術等等要生產這些不困難可是我現在要提醒的是因為我們動用了很多的國防的資源\n\n40\n00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:13,530\n李慧琼議員\n\n41\n00:14:34,181 --> 00:14:34,401\n馬文君\n\n42\n00:15:00,452 --> 00:15:01,633\n臺灣有機會成為民族產業鏈這個對我們來講對全世界來講都\n\n43\n00:16:15,146 --> 00:16:41,591\n我們希望你國訪應該維護的安全,就要把它維護好。你要去發展無人機的產業,我們贊成,我們支持的。\n\n44\n00:16:44,758 --> 00:16:44,939\n馬文君議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9613\t10434\t馬文君好 議員長午安\n25970\t52429\t我想最近其實還是有非常多的草野的委員共同還是在關心國土計劃法的部分其實國土計劃法不只只有農一農二的使用其實它還牽涉到很多相關的法令那未來如果說直接施行以後其實它會造成非常多的困擾國土計劃法當時大家為什麼認同說應該要去推動\n53109\t53349\t馬文君\n74784\t74984\t馬文君\n104764\t118613\t森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在,除非它已經損壞掉了,你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法,它有一個82721,如果在這個時間之前,\n120114\t120754\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n150495\t169827\t行水區域其實是比較小的可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係它越來越大然後可能也在這麼長的時間幾十年或者甚至上百年其實它的位置已經有位移那你在劃河川線的時候其實很多人他原來本來是私有地甚至是建地\n170467\t173611\t三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n188450\t212903\t我想請教一下那時候我們在108年為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家那時候因為早期台灣的發展尤其是中小企業都是大家可能自己家戶自己去推動發展一直到現在他可能具有一些相關的規模或者在農地上存在的這些工廠他在105年的時候我們還特別修法讓他通過\n218266\t218427\t﹚馬文君﹚\n228750\t254126\t我跟委員報告,您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分,國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理。現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。然後第二個部分就是,國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃。\n255327\t278803\t那個有些你在森林法裡面它很多就是在林地上面它不會是聚落,如果像你像國土計畫我們國產署裡面有很多也不是在聚落裡面啊,所以跟我們的聚落是無關的,現在有很多它其實就是分散的,所以沒有辦法像部長說的這個是可以解決,不可能,如果可以解決之前就會解決了。\n279884\t303858\t所以他要變更其實是更加的困難,所以這個部分不像部長想的那麼容易。 接下來還… 第二個部分就是公服法的部分,那以公服法的部分的一個執行跟現在不管你化為農一農二,那原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠他已經納管以後,那以非屬低污染的部分我們會持續的輔導。\n305279\t322189\t那除非他是高度污染的我們才會讓他簽上在農業地區大概有1100多家我們知道我們知道他是低污染的才可以符合那至少如果說還有這1000多家我想請教一下因為你在國土計畫法推行以後其實他在第38條\n325211\t337495\t從事未符合國土功能分區及分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者,由該管職銜市縣市主管機關處行為人新台幣100萬以上500萬以下罰款。\n341378\t348329\t這個接下來第二條第二項第二款也是相關的就是如果沒有按照這樣的情況他處30萬以上100萬150萬以下相關的38條全部都是罰則而且\n356581\t359322\t國土計畫法施行以後,它就是沒有按照這樣的相關的規定在使用這個塊土地。 它如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠,你說它是可以不用法的嗎?\n359322\t360102\t這是在哪裡我們看不到啊,在國土計畫法裡面我們看不到。\n383148\t384549\t國土計畫實施以後除非你是新增的違規\n413768\t413908\t馬文君\n429218\t429258\t馬文君\n459198\t459378\t哪一條?\n475035\t495120\t哪一條?國土計畫法裡面從來已經使用的是哪一條?因為我們已經有把它全部看過,就是如果已經有衝突,你在這裡你第38條的法則裡面很清楚的寫到,如果沒有依照你的分區使用的這樣相關的規定,它就是要罰。\n496365\t524787\t我跟委員報告我會後可以提供你就是國土計畫有一個非常大的精神就是保障從來是使用的部長部長我們所有我們在我們民主法治的國家然後你要修這個法你要施行我們還是希望他在法裡面可以清除的這個在法裡面有規範如果可以的話那些公服法裡面的工廠那他們也可以啊他們存在已經好幾十年本來是違規的還是違規不是說違規的在那個國土計畫完以後就變成合法的\n525421\t544902\t不是啊 當然不是 可是你是衝突的嘛我現在就是說你今天我們在105年成立的這個公服法以這個來看他現在你本來應該要給他20年的時間可是現在顯然如果他在農一農二上面因為現在更去嚴格以前可能用公服法去\n545683\t546964\t這個跟委員報告,就是農民合法的權利不會受到影響。\n569595\t578283\t這個在農業用地裡面﹖我們已經把它納進﹖內政部納進國土計劃法的施行審査草案裡面說沒有﹖合法的使用我們沒有意見﹖我現在講的是其他的﹖你為什麼會訂森林法58527﹖為什麼會訂國產法82721﹖為什麼會訂公福法說讓他20年﹖可以讓他在低污染的情況之下﹖可以去辦理合法登記﹖給他20年的時間﹖\n597259\t615913\t就是因為在這一段時間裡面其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料因為有些人在民國20年甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡那時候沒有國民政府那時候那塊土地沒有編訂沒有地號人家已經住在那裡所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的我們後來\n617754\t618395\t我強調一下是合法的才會有保障喔\n646254\t646294\t馬文君\n661934\t662214\t法定人數不足\n691390\t715226\t農地、農一、農二就是表示現在上面都是種東西的啦你政府政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候你都有辦法讓它變成合法可是人家早已經存在的你現在沒有辦法幫他解決你倉促的施行你就會造成很多人無家可歸或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠那違背了當初你公福法通過的一個精神\n715726\t724211\t如果說你有納管的時候,就會讓他隨著納管的部分,除非你沒有被納管的部分。國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他非法以後國土計畫完了以後會變成合法,沒有這一條。\n730694\t753253\t本來就沒有這一條,部長你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎?工福法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來在農地上面,事實上是還有這些,可是你的事,你沒有在法上面把它指出來,所以你讓大家知道,讓所有全體如果有這樣子工廠違規使用,可是你應該要給他選擇,選擇我們。另外,\n757659\t773975\t不用釐清把法給我們就好了因為你說有嘛你說可以保障嘛你要讓大家知道而且讓大家放心接下來我想要請教的是像經濟部在組無人機的聯盟希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元\n780822\t791579\t經濟部日前也宣誓成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟,希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展。 我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做?\n792618\t815369\t報告委員,我們現在的聯盟是由漢翔為主,臺灣的供應鏈大概有50家,技術是由工研院來接收。我們對美國跟對日本這兩個市場拋出我們合作的方向。跟委員報告,這兩個國家到2028年,\n820211\t827842\t大概整個市場可以來到台幣大概5000億,所以我們認為要達到這個2028年要達到300億應該是可以努力的。\n832743\t852930\t部長因為我想這是理想可是臺灣要建構這樣子的一個環境我覺得不困難臺灣的不管在我們所有的所有的量能所有我們的技術等等要生產這些不困難可是我現在要提醒的是因為我們動用了很多的國防的資源\n853390\t853530\t李慧琼議員\n874181\t874401\t馬文君\n900452\t901633\t臺灣有機會成為民族產業鏈 這個對我們來講對全世界來講都\n975146\t1001591\t我們希望你國訪應該維護的安全,就要把它維護好。你要去發展無人機的產業,我們贊成,我們支持的。\n1004758\t1004939\t馬文君議員\n","txt":"馬文君好 議員長午安\n我想最近其實還是有非常多的草野的委員共同還是在關心國土計劃法的部分其實國土計劃法不只只有農一農二的使用其實它還牽涉到很多相關的法令那未來如果說直接施行以後其實它會造成非常多的困擾國土計劃法當時大家為什麼認同說應該要去推動\n馬文君\n馬文君\n森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在,除非它已經損壞掉了,你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法,它有一個82721,如果在這個時間之前,\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n行水區域其實是比較小的可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係它越來越大然後可能也在這麼長的時間幾十年或者甚至上百年其實它的位置已經有位移那你在劃河川線的時候其實很多人他原來本來是私有地甚至是建地\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n我想請教一下那時候我們在108年為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家那時候因為早期台灣的發展尤其是中小企業都是大家可能自己家戶自己去推動發展一直到現在他可能具有一些相關的規模或者在農地上存在的這些工廠他在105年的時候我們還特別修法讓他通過\n﹚馬文君﹚\n我跟委員報告,您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分,國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理。現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。然後第二個部分就是,國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃。\n那個有些你在森林法裡面它很多就是在林地上面它不會是聚落,如果像你像國土計畫我們國產署裡面有很多也不是在聚落裡面啊,所以跟我們的聚落是無關的,現在有很多它其實就是分散的,所以沒有辦法像部長說的這個是可以解決,不可能,如果可以解決之前就會解決了。\n所以他要變更其實是更加的困難,所以這個部分不像部長想的那麼容易。 接下來還… 第二個部分就是公服法的部分,那以公服法的部分的一個執行跟現在不管你化為農一農二,那原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠他已經納管以後,那以非屬低污染的部分我們會持續的輔導。\n那除非他是高度污染的我們才會讓他簽上在農業地區大概有1100多家我們知道我們知道他是低污染的才可以符合那至少如果說還有這1000多家我想請教一下因為你在國土計畫法推行以後其實他在第38條\n從事未符合國土功能分區及分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者,由該管職銜市縣市主管機關處行為人新台幣100萬以上500萬以下罰款。\n這個接下來第二條第二項第二款也是相關的就是如果沒有按照這樣的情況他處30萬以上100萬150萬以下相關的38條全部都是罰則而且\n國土計畫法施行以後,它就是沒有按照這樣的相關的規定在使用這個塊土地。 它如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠,你說它是可以不用法的嗎?\n這是在哪裡我們看不到啊,在國土計畫法裡面我們看不到。\n國土計畫實施以後除非你是新增的違規\n馬文君\n馬文君\n哪一條?\n哪一條?國土計畫法裡面從來已經使用的是哪一條?因為我們已經有把它全部看過,就是如果已經有衝突,你在這裡你第38條的法則裡面很清楚的寫到,如果沒有依照你的分區使用的這樣相關的規定,它就是要罰。\n我跟委員報告我會後可以提供你就是國土計畫有一個非常大的精神就是保障從來是使用的部長部長我們所有我們在我們民主法治的國家然後你要修這個法你要施行我們還是希望他在法裡面可以清除的這個在法裡面有規範如果可以的話那些公服法裡面的工廠那他們也可以啊他們存在已經好幾十年本來是違規的還是違規不是說違規的在那個國土計畫完以後就變成合法的\n不是啊 當然不是 可是你是衝突的嘛我現在就是說你今天我們在105年成立的這個公服法以這個來看他現在你本來應該要給他20年的時間可是現在顯然如果他在農一農二上面因為現在更去嚴格以前可能用公服法去\n這個跟委員報告,就是農民合法的權利不會受到影響。\n這個在農業用地裡面﹖我們已經把它納進﹖內政部納進國土計劃法的施行審査草案裡面說沒有﹖合法的使用我們沒有意見﹖我現在講的是其他的﹖你為什麼會訂森林法58527﹖為什麼會訂國產法82721﹖為什麼會訂公福法說讓他20年﹖可以讓他在低污染的情況之下﹖可以去辦理合法登記﹖給他20年的時間﹖\n就是因為在這一段時間裡面其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料因為有些人在民國20年甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡那時候沒有國民政府那時候那塊土地沒有編訂沒有地號人家已經住在那裡所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的我們後來\n我強調一下是合法的才會有保障喔\n馬文君\n法定人數不足\n農地、農一、農二就是表示現在上面都是種東西的啦你政府政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候你都有辦法讓它變成合法可是人家早已經存在的你現在沒有辦法幫他解決你倉促的施行你就會造成很多人無家可歸或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠那違背了當初你公福法通過的一個精神\n如果說你有納管的時候,就會讓他隨著納管的部分,除非你沒有被納管的部分。國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他非法以後國土計畫完了以後會變成合法,沒有這一條。\n本來就沒有這一條,部長你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎?工福法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來在農地上面,事實上是還有這些,可是你的事,你沒有在法上面把它指出來,所以你讓大家知道,讓所有全體如果有這樣子工廠違規使用,可是你應該要給他選擇,選擇我們。另外,\n不用釐清把法給我們就好了因為你說有嘛你說可以保障嘛你要讓大家知道而且讓大家放心接下來我想要請教的是像經濟部在組無人機的聯盟希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元\n經濟部日前也宣誓成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟,希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展。 我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做?\n報告委員,我們現在的聯盟是由漢翔為主,臺灣的供應鏈大概有50家,技術是由工研院來接收。我們對美國跟對日本這兩個市場拋出我們合作的方向。跟委員報告,這兩個國家到2028年,\n大概整個市場可以來到台幣大概5000億,所以我們認為要達到這個2028年要達到300億應該是可以努力的。\n部長因為我想這是理想可是臺灣要建構這樣子的一個環境我覺得不困難臺灣的不管在我們所有的所有的量能所有我們的技術等等要生產這些不困難可是我現在要提醒的是因為我們動用了很多的國防的資源\n李慧琼議員\n馬文君\n臺灣有機會成為民族產業鏈 這個對我們來講對全世界來講都\n我們希望你國訪應該維護的安全,就要把它維護好。你要去發展無人機的產業,我們贊成,我們支持的。\n馬文君議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.613 --> 00:10.434\n馬文君好議員長午安\n\n00:25.970 --> 00:52.429\n我想最近其實還是有非常多的草野的委員共同還是在關心國土計劃法的部分其實國土計劃法不只只有農一農二的使用其實它還牽涉到很多相關的法令那未來如果說直接施行以後其實它會造成非常多的困擾國土計劃法當時大家為什麼認同說應該要去推動\n\n00:53.109 --> 00:53.349\n馬文君\n\n01:14.784 --> 01:14.984\n馬文君\n\n01:44.764 --> 01:58.613\n森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在,除非它已經損壞掉了,你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法,它有一個82721,如果在這個時間之前,\n\n02:00.114 --> 02:00.754\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n02:30.495 --> 02:49.827\n行水區域其實是比較小的可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係它越來越大然後可能也在這麼長的時間幾十年或者甚至上百年其實它的位置已經有位移那你在劃河川線的時候其實很多人他原來本來是私有地甚至是建地\n\n02:50.467 --> 02:53.611\n三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n03:08.450 --> 03:32.903\n我想請教一下那時候我們在108年為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家那時候因為早期台灣的發展尤其是中小企業都是大家可能自己家戶自己去推動發展一直到現在他可能具有一些相關的規模或者在農地上存在的這些工廠他在105年的時候我們還特別修法讓他通過\n\n03:38.266 --> 03:38.427\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n03:48.750 --> 04:14.126\n我跟委員報告,您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分,國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理。現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。然後第二個部分就是,國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃。\n\n04:15.327 --> 04:38.803\n那個有些你在森林法裡面它很多就是在林地上面它不會是聚落,如果像你像國土計畫我們國產署裡面有很多也不是在聚落裡面啊,所以跟我們的聚落是無關的,現在有很多它其實就是分散的,所以沒有辦法像部長說的這個是可以解決,不可能,如果可以解決之前就會解決了。\n\n04:39.884 --> 05:03.858\n所以他要變更其實是更加的困難,所以這個部分不像部長想的那麼容易。接下來還…第二個部分就是公服法的部分,那以公服法的部分的一個執行跟現在不管你化為農一農二,那原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠他已經納管以後,那以非屬低污染的部分我們會持續的輔導。\n\n05:05.279 --> 05:22.189\n那除非他是高度污染的我們才會讓他簽上在農業地區大概有1100多家我們知道我們知道他是低污染的才可以符合那至少如果說還有這1000多家我想請教一下因為你在國土計畫法推行以後其實他在第38條\n\n05:25.211 --> 05:37.495\n從事未符合國土功能分區及分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者,由該管職銜市縣市主管機關處行為人新台幣100萬以上500萬以下罰款。\n\n05:41.378 --> 05:48.329\n這個接下來第二條第二項第二款也是相關的就是如果沒有按照這樣的情況他處30萬以上100萬150萬以下相關的38條全部都是罰則而且\n\n05:56.581 --> 05:59.322\n國土計畫法施行以後,它就是沒有按照這樣的相關的規定在使用這個塊土地。它如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠,你說它是可以不用法的嗎?\n\n05:59.322 --> 06:00.102\n這是在哪裡我們看不到啊,在國土計畫法裡面我們看不到。\n\n06:23.148 --> 06:24.549\n國土計畫實施以後除非你是新增的違規\n\n06:53.768 --> 06:53.908\n馬文君\n\n07:09.218 --> 07:09.258\n馬文君\n\n07:39.198 --> 07:39.378\n哪一條?\n\n07:55.035 --> 08:15.120\n哪一條?國土計畫法裡面從來已經使用的是哪一條?因為我們已經有把它全部看過,就是如果已經有衝突,你在這裡你第38條的法則裡面很清楚的寫到,如果沒有依照你的分區使用的這樣相關的規定,它就是要罰。\n\n08:16.365 --> 08:44.787\n我跟委員報告我會後可以提供你就是國土計畫有一個非常大的精神就是保障從來是使用的部長部長我們所有我們在我們民主法治的國家然後你要修這個法你要施行我們還是希望他在法裡面可以清除的這個在法裡面有規範如果可以的話那些公服法裡面的工廠那他們也可以啊他們存在已經好幾十年本來是違規的還是違規不是說違規的在那個國土計畫完以後就變成合法的\n\n08:45.421 --> 09:04.902\n不是啊當然不是可是你是衝突的嘛我現在就是說你今天我們在105年成立的這個公服法以這個來看他現在你本來應該要給他20年的時間可是現在顯然如果他在農一農二上面因為現在更去嚴格以前可能用公服法去\n\n09:05.683 --> 09:06.964\n這個跟委員報告,就是農民合法的權利不會受到影響。\n\n09:29.595 --> 09:38.283\n這個在農業用地裡面﹖我們已經把它納進﹖內政部納進國土計劃法的施行審査草案裡面說沒有﹖合法的使用我們沒有意見﹖我現在講的是其他的﹖你為什麼會訂森林法58527﹖為什麼會訂國產法82721﹖為什麼會訂公福法說讓他20年﹖可以讓他在低污染的情況之下﹖可以去辦理合法登記﹖給他20年的時間﹖\n\n09:57.259 --> 10:15.913\n就是因為在這一段時間裡面其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料因為有些人在民國20年甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡那時候沒有國民政府那時候那塊土地沒有編訂沒有地號人家已經住在那裡所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的我們後來\n\n10:17.754 --> 10:18.395\n我強調一下是合法的才會有保障喔\n\n10:46.254 --> 10:46.294\n馬文君\n\n11:01.934 --> 11:02.214\n法定人數不足\n\n11:31.390 --> 11:55.226\n農地、農一、農二就是表示現在上面都是種東西的啦你政府政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候你都有辦法讓它變成合法可是人家早已經存在的你現在沒有辦法幫他解決你倉促的施行你就會造成很多人無家可歸或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠那違背了當初你公福法通過的一個精神\n\n11:55.726 --> 12:04.211\n如果說你有納管的時候,就會讓他隨著納管的部分,除非你沒有被納管的部分。國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他非法以後國土計畫完了以後會變成合法,沒有這一條。\n\n12:10.694 --> 12:33.253\n本來就沒有這一條,部長你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎?工福法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來在農地上面,事實上是還有這些,可是你的事,你沒有在法上面把它指出來,所以你讓大家知道,讓所有全體如果有這樣子工廠違規使用,可是你應該要給他選擇,選擇我們。另外,\n\n12:37.659 --> 12:53.975\n不用釐清把法給我們就好了因為你說有嘛你說可以保障嘛你要讓大家知道而且讓大家放心接下來我想要請教的是像經濟部在組無人機的聯盟希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元\n\n13:00.822 --> 13:11.579\n經濟部日前也宣誓成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟,希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展。我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做?\n\n13:12.618 --> 13:35.369\n報告委員,我們現在的聯盟是由漢翔為主,臺灣的供應鏈大概有50家,技術是由工研院來接收。我們對美國跟對日本這兩個市場拋出我們合作的方向。跟委員報告,這兩個國家到2028年,\n\n13:40.211 --> 13:47.842\n大概整個市場可以來到台幣大概5000億,所以我們認為要達到這個2028年要達到300億應該是可以努力的。\n\n13:52.743 --> 14:12.930\n部長因為我想這是理想可是臺灣要建構這樣子的一個環境我覺得不困難臺灣的不管在我們所有的所有的量能所有我們的技術等等要生產這些不困難可是我現在要提醒的是因為我們動用了很多的國防的資源\n\n14:13.390 --> 14:13.530\n李慧琼議員\n\n14:34.181 --> 14:34.401\n馬文君\n\n15:00.452 --> 15:01.633\n臺灣有機會成為民族產業鏈這個對我們來講對全世界來講都\n\n16:15.146 --> 16:41.591\n我們希望你國訪應該維護的安全,就要把它維護好。你要去發展無人機的產業,我們贊成,我們支持的。\n\n16:44.758 --> 16:44.939\n馬文君議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.613,"end":10.434,"text":"馬文君好 議員長午安"},{"start":25.97,"end":52.429,"text":"我想最近其實還是有非常多的草野的委員共同還是在關心國土計劃法的部分其實國土計劃法不只只有農一農二的使用其實它還牽涉到很多相關的法令那未來如果說直接施行以後其實它會造成非常多的困擾國土計劃法當時大家為什麼認同說應該要去推動"},{"start":53.109,"end":53.349,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":74.784,"end":74.984,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":104.764,"end":118.613,"text":"森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在,除非它已經損壞掉了,你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法,它有一個82721,如果在這個時間之前,"},{"start":120.114,"end":120.754,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":150.495,"end":169.827,"text":"行水區域其實是比較小的可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係它越來越大然後可能也在這麼長的時間幾十年或者甚至上百年其實它的位置已經有位移那你在劃河川線的時候其實很多人他原來本來是私有地甚至是建地"},{"start":170.467,"end":173.611,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":188.45,"end":212.903,"text":"我想請教一下那時候我們在108年為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家那時候因為早期台灣的發展尤其是中小企業都是大家可能自己家戶自己去推動發展一直到現在他可能具有一些相關的規模或者在農地上存在的這些工廠他在105年的時候我們還特別修法讓他通過"},{"start":218.266,"end":218.427,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":228.75,"end":254.126,"text":"我跟委員報告,您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分,國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理。現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。然後第二個部分就是,國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃。"},{"start":255.327,"end":278.803,"text":"那個有些你在森林法裡面它很多就是在林地上面它不會是聚落,如果像你像國土計畫我們國產署裡面有很多也不是在聚落裡面啊,所以跟我們的聚落是無關的,現在有很多它其實就是分散的,所以沒有辦法像部長說的這個是可以解決,不可能,如果可以解決之前就會解決了。"},{"start":279.884,"end":303.858,"text":"所以他要變更其實是更加的困難,所以這個部分不像部長想的那麼容易。 接下來還… 第二個部分就是公服法的部分,那以公服法的部分的一個執行跟現在不管你化為農一農二,那原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠他已經納管以後,那以非屬低污染的部分我們會持續的輔導。"},{"start":305.279,"end":322.189,"text":"那除非他是高度污染的我們才會讓他簽上在農業地區大概有1100多家我們知道我們知道他是低污染的才可以符合那至少如果說還有這1000多家我想請教一下因為你在國土計畫法推行以後其實他在第38條"},{"start":325.211,"end":337.495,"text":"從事未符合國土功能分區及分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者,由該管職銜市縣市主管機關處行為人新台幣100萬以上500萬以下罰款。"},{"start":341.378,"end":348.329,"text":"這個接下來第二條第二項第二款也是相關的就是如果沒有按照這樣的情況他處30萬以上100萬150萬以下相關的38條全部都是罰則而且"},{"start":356.581,"end":359.322,"text":"國土計畫法施行以後,它就是沒有按照這樣的相關的規定在使用這個塊土地。 它如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠,你說它是可以不用法的嗎?"},{"start":359.322,"end":360.102,"text":"這是在哪裡我們看不到啊,在國土計畫法裡面我們看不到。"},{"start":383.148,"end":384.549,"text":"國土計畫實施以後除非你是新增的違規"},{"start":413.768,"end":413.908,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":429.218,"end":429.258,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":459.198,"end":459.378,"text":"哪一條?"},{"start":475.035,"end":495.12,"text":"哪一條?國土計畫法裡面從來已經使用的是哪一條?因為我們已經有把它全部看過,就是如果已經有衝突,你在這裡你第38條的法則裡面很清楚的寫到,如果沒有依照你的分區使用的這樣相關的規定,它就是要罰。"},{"start":496.365,"end":524.787,"text":"我跟委員報告我會後可以提供你就是國土計畫有一個非常大的精神就是保障從來是使用的部長部長我們所有我們在我們民主法治的國家然後你要修這個法你要施行我們還是希望他在法裡面可以清除的這個在法裡面有規範如果可以的話那些公服法裡面的工廠那他們也可以啊他們存在已經好幾十年本來是違規的還是違規不是說違規的在那個國土計畫完以後就變成合法的"},{"start":525.421,"end":544.902,"text":"不是啊 當然不是 可是你是衝突的嘛我現在就是說你今天我們在105年成立的這個公服法以這個來看他現在你本來應該要給他20年的時間可是現在顯然如果他在農一農二上面因為現在更去嚴格以前可能用公服法去"},{"start":545.683,"end":546.964,"text":"這個跟委員報告,就是農民合法的權利不會受到影響。"},{"start":569.595,"end":578.283,"text":"這個在農業用地裡面﹖我們已經把它納進﹖內政部納進國土計劃法的施行審査草案裡面說沒有﹖合法的使用我們沒有意見﹖我現在講的是其他的﹖你為什麼會訂森林法58527﹖為什麼會訂國產法82721﹖為什麼會訂公福法說讓他20年﹖可以讓他在低污染的情況之下﹖可以去辦理合法登記﹖給他20年的時間﹖"},{"start":597.259,"end":615.913,"text":"就是因為在這一段時間裡面其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料因為有些人在民國20年甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡那時候沒有國民政府那時候那塊土地沒有編訂沒有地號人家已經住在那裡所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的我們後來"},{"start":617.754,"end":618.395,"text":"我強調一下是合法的才會有保障喔"},{"start":646.254,"end":646.294,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":661.934,"end":662.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":691.39,"end":715.226,"text":"農地、農一、農二就是表示現在上面都是種東西的啦你政府政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候你都有辦法讓它變成合法可是人家早已經存在的你現在沒有辦法幫他解決你倉促的施行你就會造成很多人無家可歸或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠那違背了當初你公福法通過的一個精神"},{"start":715.726,"end":724.211,"text":"如果說你有納管的時候,就會讓他隨著納管的部分,除非你沒有被納管的部分。國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他非法以後國土計畫完了以後會變成合法,沒有這一條。"},{"start":730.694,"end":753.253,"text":"本來就沒有這一條,部長你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎?工福法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來在農地上面,事實上是還有這些,可是你的事,你沒有在法上面把它指出來,所以你讓大家知道,讓所有全體如果有這樣子工廠違規使用,可是你應該要給他選擇,選擇我們。另外,"},{"start":757.659,"end":773.975,"text":"不用釐清把法給我們就好了因為你說有嘛你說可以保障嘛你要讓大家知道而且讓大家放心接下來我想要請教的是像經濟部在組無人機的聯盟希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元"},{"start":780.822,"end":791.579,"text":"經濟部日前也宣誓成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟,希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展。 我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做?"},{"start":792.618,"end":815.369,"text":"報告委員,我們現在的聯盟是由漢翔為主,臺灣的供應鏈大概有50家,技術是由工研院來接收。我們對美國跟對日本這兩個市場拋出我們合作的方向。跟委員報告,這兩個國家到2028年,"},{"start":820.211,"end":827.842,"text":"大概整個市場可以來到台幣大概5000億,所以我們認為要達到這個2028年要達到300億應該是可以努力的。"},{"start":832.743,"end":852.93,"text":"部長因為我想這是理想可是臺灣要建構這樣子的一個環境我覺得不困難臺灣的不管在我們所有的所有的量能所有我們的技術等等要生產這些不困難可是我現在要提醒的是因為我們動用了很多的國防的資源"},{"start":853.39,"end":853.53,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":874.181,"end":874.401,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":900.452,"end":901.633,"text":"臺灣有機會成為民族產業鏈 這個對我們來講對全世界來講都"},{"start":975.146,"end":1001.591,"text":"我們希望你國訪應該維護的安全,就要把它維護好。你要去發展無人機的產業,我們贊成,我們支持的。"},{"start":1004.758,"end":1004.939,"text":"馬文君議員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:05:56 - 17:22:48","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155395,"gazette":{"lineno":1651,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（17時6分）謝謝主席。麻煩請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長午安。我想最近其實還是有非常多的朝野委員還是共同在關心國土計畫法的部分，其實國土計畫法不是只有農一、農二的使用，它還牽涉到很多相關的法令，未來如果說直接施行以後，它會造成非常多的困擾。國土計畫法當時大家為什麼認同應該要去推動的很重要的一個原因，是因為有些法令其實都已經是非常、非常久了，甚至可能都已經有七、八十年，甚至很長的時間，對於現在已經有一些不合時宜的部分，雖然我們有不斷的在修法，我現在要特別提出來的，我想請教一下，像國土計畫法如果施行以後，因為剛剛部長有特別提到，其實像農業設施、糧食安全給付、農業金融支持等等，這些原來就在做，什麼叫堆疊式的給付，這個其實農民都看不懂，而且你本來就在做了，跟我們現在擔心的國土計畫法推動以後會造成的傷害其實沒有太大的關聯。","我們現在要請教的是，假如像森林法，森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在，除非它已經損壞掉了，你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法，它有一個82721，如果在這個時間之前已經存在的，它也容許它存在在農地上或者在其他土地上面，原來就是因為它可能沒有辦法按照我們的土地編定去做這樣的建築，所以才訂這些相關的法令。","另外除了國產法、森林法，還有水利法，水利法我想大家都知道，其實早期的溪流河川也許它本來的行水區域其實是比較小的，可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係，它越來越大，可能也在這麼長的時間，幾十年或者甚至上百年，其實它的位置已經有位移，你在劃河川線的時候，其實很多人本來是私有地，甚至是建地，可是已經變成是在河川的行水區域內或者在它的治理線，或者甚至就在相關的法限之內，像這樣也會面臨到國土計畫法施行以後，可能會面臨到衝擊。","另外還有一個就是工輔法，我想請教一下，那時候在108年，為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家，因為早期臺灣的發展，尤其是中小企業，可能都是大家家戶自己去推動發展，一直到現在它可能具有一些相關的規模，或者在農地上存在的這些工廠，它在105年的時候，我們還特別修法讓它通過有二十年的大限。可是在國土計畫法施行以後，這些怎麼辦？部長要先講嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分，國土計畫實施以後，反而更容易解，因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理，現在反而比較困難，要用另外的產業園區部分。然後第二個部分，就是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你再說一次，用什麼、用什麼去解？"],["陳部長駿季：國土計畫實施以後，反而比較好解，如果它已經變成聚落，縣市政府就可以用鄉村整體規劃……"],["馬委員文君：在森林法裡面，有很多就是在林地上，它不會是聚落，像國產署裡面也有很多不是在聚落裡面，所以跟聚落是無關的，現在有很多其實就是分散的，所以沒有辦法像部長說的這是可以解決的，不可能！如果可以解決，之前就解決了，現在他要變更更加困難，所以這個部分不像部長想得那麼容易。接下來……"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分是工輔法的部分，在工輔法的執行，現在不管是劃為農一、農二，而原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠，在已經納管以後，已非屬低污染的部分我們會持續輔導，除非是高度污染，我們才會讓它遷廠，這個在農業地區大概有一千一百多家。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們知道是低污染的才可以符合，如果說還有一千多家……"],["陳部長駿季：這個不會影響到……"],["馬委員文君：我想要請教一下，因為國土計畫法推行以後，第三十八條規定，從事未符合國土功能分區及其分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者，由該管直轄市、縣（市）主管機關處行為人新臺幣一百萬元以上五百萬元以下罰鍰。有下列情形之一者，就是沒有按照相關規定，處三十萬元以上一百五十萬元以下。第三十八條規定全部都是罰則，而且如果違規使用，就可以包括斷電、斷水、封閉，甚至拆除，如果沒有拆除也不行。剛剛你說納管，可是在國土計畫法施行以後，他就是沒有按照這樣的相關規定在使用這塊土地，他如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠，你說他可以不用罰嗎？這規定在哪裡？我們看不到，在國土計畫法裡我們看不到啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在工輔法裡就有很明確的規定，他會照著工輔法相關規定去做，國土計畫實施以後，除非是新增的違規，大面積的才會……"],["馬委員文君：部長，那就把這一條列上去，因為不能只是在這裡口說，我們看到很多都是有一些規定跟罰則的，像我上次提到農民的農保，有的繳了三、四十年農保，你們直接就把他砍掉，讓他喪失農保資格，可是用太陽能的，他去申請工商登記，居然還可以享有農保，我不知道標準在哪裡？這樣是傷害我們農民，包括現在也是，如果你認為這樣子可以確保包括工輔法、森林法、國產法，還有水利法這些相關的內容，一旦他的使用有違背到國土計畫法相關情形，其實你們應該把它直接訂到法裡面，因為這樣人民才可以信任，你也才可以依法行政。今天如果有人檢舉，他是不是要罰一百萬到五百萬？你可以不罰嗎？依據哪一條不罰？依據哪一條不罰？告訴我們就好。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，相關國土計畫裡面有特別的規定，就是可以保障從來之使用的部分，包括農牧用地，就算是在國保區，你是農牧用地……"],["馬委員文君：哪一條？哪一條？"],["陳部長駿季：哪一條是不是？"],["馬委員文君：國土計畫法裡面保障從來已經使用的是哪一條？我們已經把法條全部看過，如果有衝突，你在第三十八條的罰則裡面很清楚地寫到，如果沒有依照分區使用的相關規定就是要罰，然後就是要拆。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，會後我可以提供給你，國土計畫有一個非常大的精神，就是保障從來之使用的，就是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們是民主法治國家，你要修這個法、要施行，我們希望還是可以在法裡面清楚標示……"],["陳部長駿季：這個在法裡面都有規範。"],["馬委員文君：如果可以的話，那麼那些工輔法裡的工廠也可以啊！他們存在已經好幾十年啊！"],["陳部長駿季：本來是違規的還是違規，不是說違規的在國土計畫完以後，就變成合法的，不是這樣子。"],["馬委員文君：不是啊！當然不是，可是你是衝突的嘛！我現在說的是105年成立的工輔法，以這個來看，本來你應該給他們二十年時間，可是現在顯然如果他是在農一、農二上面……因為現在更趨嚴格，以前可能用工輔法去為這個解套，可是現在一旦施行下去以後，就是以這個法為原則，我們在這個法裡面沒有看到可以保障我剛剛唸到的這幾個法相關的這些影響，部長你說在哪一條，如果有的話請提供給我們所有的委員，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，農民合法的權利不會受到影響，這個農業用地，內政部已經納進國土計畫法的施行細則草案裡面作規劃。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我知道，合法的使用我們沒有意見，我現在講的是其他的，為什麼會訂森林法58527？為什麼會訂國產法82721？為什麼會訂工輔法可以讓他在低污染的情況之下去辦理合法登記，給他20年的時間？就是因為在這一段時間裡面，其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料，因為有些人在民國20年，甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡，那時候沒有國民政府，那時候那塊土地沒有編定、沒有地號，人家已經住在那裡，所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的，我們後來在法律上面就是訂出這些落日條款和時間點給他改善，可是現在在國土法施行以後，他就會面臨到衝擊，這一些你們沒有提出解決的辦法，如果貿然施行，會造成很大的衝擊，所以我們希望……如果像剛剛部長說這個在裡面是可以有保障的，請確切的指出來它可以怎麼樣保障我剛剛提到的這一些……"],["陳部長駿季：我強調一下，是合法的才會有保障，非法的……"],["馬委員文君：剛剛那些就不是合法嘛，所以才會有工輔法啊！所以……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，工輔法是很特殊的一個法。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們現在要讓所有我們之前通過工輔法或者我剛剛提到的這些相關法令……，因為早期他在蓋的時候，他就沒有辦法取得這樣子的建造資料或者使照資料，所以他會有一些相關的困難，而且針對農一、農二，你現在把他訂上去，他以前可能不是被編定成這樣，你現在把他編定這樣，他房子已經在了，可是你沒有任何的配套措施，我要講的是這個部分。所以部長不要講合法的，合法的農地包括農一、農二，就表示現在上面都是種東西的，政府的政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候，你都有辦法讓他變成合法，可是人家早已經存在的，現在沒有辦法幫他解決，你倉促的施行，那就會造成很多人無家可歸，或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠，那違背了當初工輔法通過的精神。"],["陳部長駿季：依照工輔法，如果你有納管的時候，就會讓他隨著納管的部分，除非說你沒有被納管的部分。"],["馬委員文君：部長，國土法裡面的法條……"],["陳部長駿季：國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他如果是非法，國土計畫完了以後會變成合法，沒有這一條。"],["馬委員文君：本來就沒有這一條，部長，你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["馬委員文君：工輔法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來，在農地上面事實上還有這些……"],["陳部長駿季：有納管的就沒問題啊，有納管的沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：你沒有在法上面把他指出來讓大家知道，所有有這樣子的工廠違規使用，你應該要給他指正……"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我想後續我們會把這些疑問加以釐清。"],["馬委員文君：不用釐清，把法給我們就好了，因為你說有嘛、你說可以保障嘛，你要讓大家知道，而且讓大家放心。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：接下來，我想要請教的是經濟部在組無人機的聯盟，希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架，賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元，經濟部日前也宣示成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟，希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展，我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在的這個聯盟是由漢翔為主，臺灣的這個供應鏈大概有五十家，技術是由工研院來接收，我們對美國及日本這兩個市場拋出這樣的合作方向。跟委員報告，這兩個國家到2028年大概整個市場可以來到臺幣五千億，所以我們認為2028年要達到三百億應該是可以努力的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我想這是理想，可是臺灣要建構這樣子的環境，我覺得不困難。臺灣不管是所有的量能、所有的技術等等，要生產這些不困難，可是我現在要提醒的是，我們動用了很多的國防資源，過去中科院其實投入非常多的研發經費，我之前說一百多億，其實不止，如果連劍翔算進去，劍翔在我們的特別預算裡面高達好幾百億，如果我沒有記錯的話是800億。像這麼多投入的經費，我們到底想要做什麼？我們是美國的代工嗎？","剛剛我們聽到美國及日本所有無人機的生產，我們現在比較擔心的是，看起來這個主要是解決美國無人機自己製造的問題，因為根據美國陸軍的規劃，未來美國陸軍打擊旅的小型無人機要配備到連級，可是美國本土沒有小型無人機的產業，如果在美國生產，成本又會太高，所以它希望讓臺灣生產小型無人機；中大型無人機的技術，它會給臺灣嗎？如果它沒有給，我們就是做代工。今天如果我們是代工的角色，其他國家包括東南亞的國家甚至都可以取代我們，沒有理由要用臺灣。","所以就這個部分，我剛剛提到了我們有很多的關鍵技術，包括國防部之前花了好幾百億的研發費用，到現在突然終止掉了，就為了要發展無人機的產業園區。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，臺灣有機會成為民主產業鏈，這個對我們來講、對全世界來講都非常重要。"],["馬委員文君：民主產業鏈是口號，我們要的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是口號！"],["馬委員文君：我們要的是安定和平，我們不要只是代工……"],["卓院長榮泰：只要大家支持，就不是口號。"],["馬委員文君：今天你如果花的是國家的錢，是維護國家安全的，不能只是把它拿來當這個部分。如果部長不認同，你應該要有更具體的說法，而不是拿數據，因為你來自企業界，我們要的……國防跟企業、經濟的規模其實要把它拆開來看。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們做的是軍規商用。"],["馬委員文君：軍規商用是有通過的嗎？部長，沒關係，後續我們有時間再跟你討論軍規商用是什麼東西，我想我們再來把它好好地釐清楚，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：軍規商用就是在一般的市場，跟軍事沒有正相關。"],["馬委員文君：可是我們現在國防部買的都是軍規商用的無人機耶！我們現在國防部買的都是……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，委員多支持，它就不會是口號，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：它不是口號，我說的是你現在用的是國防的預算買軍用商規無人機，剛剛部長說那個是沒有關的。"],["郭部長智輝：跟我們這個聯盟沒有關係。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們希望國防應該維護的安全就要把它維護好，你要去發展無人機的產業，我們贊成、我們支持……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持。"],["馬委員文君：因為無人機的產業未來可能會是一個重要的產業……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：可是不要去吞噬到國防安全的預算，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝。謝謝卓院長、相關首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第23號劉建國委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員劉建國書面質詢：","一、AI高科技人才培育基地","(1)雲林環球科大宣布退場，30公頃校地，12棟校舍建築，可利用該校設置台灣第一座「AI高科技人才培育基地」，行政院前副院長鄭文燦在任時召開會議拍板決議，由中央全力主導，建請教育部與經濟部規畫。","(2)本席於113年6月12日施政總質詢，經濟部長郭智輝回復待台糖土地完全交給經濟部，後續會盡速辦理，建請　行政院盡速核定計畫，由中央主導、經濟部規劃設置「AI高科技人才培育基地」。","二、【AI醫學產業鏈】","(1)台灣首座「國家級高齡醫學暨健康福祉研究中心」在雲林設立，同時還有111億台大虎尾院區二期擴建計畫，透過這樣的醫療連結，絕對有能力可以支援相關AI醫療技術的開發。","(2)中科虎尾園區目前滿載，行政院支持擴建，未來若是在園區設置AI醫療場域，連結國家級高齡醫學暨健康福祉研究中心及台大醫院虎尾院區，將整個AI醫療產業發揮到最大效益，三方串聯成「AI醫學產業鏈」。","(3)建請比照嘉義科學園區模式，中央政策全面主導，立即辦理可行性評估、籌辦計畫……等等相關程序作業。","三、農業堆疊式給付機制","(1)農業部為確保農業發展地區發展性及增進農民權益，推動各項給付措施，並建構生態服務的堆疊式給付制度，以確保農業發展地區實際從農的農民權益，建請農業部盡速辦理，並於一周內提供相關配套措施。"],["項目：四、麥寮海淡廠延期","為避免超抽濁水溪水，台塑承諾在麥寮六輕建置海淡廠，除供水六輕外，還能供給周遭民眾民生用水。然而2018年通過環評，開始建造，預定2022年完工，但2022年5月台塑六輕發布消息，因疫情影響六輕海水淡化廠興建，將延後1年完工。這樣一延就沒完沒了了，去年2023年工程完全靜悄悄，為此本席也在去年3月於司法法制委員會質詢時，要求經濟部督促六輕，結果現在2024都要結束了，六輕承諾的這座海淡廠仍然沒有完成！現已多有民間團體呼籲環境部應進行開罰。","對此，經濟部是否有掌握麥寮海淡廠三度延期原因為何？同時經濟部應有相關手段，強力要求麥寮海淡廠加快建造速度，而非一直延宕，與民搶水，請經濟部2周內回覆，具體作為方針。"],["主席：接下來請登記第24號羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}}