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{\"start\": 96.187, \"end\": 122.952, \"text\": \"所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳定價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 96.187, \"end\": 96.947, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 96.947, \"end\": 97.267, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 97.267, \"end\": 97.427, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 97.427, \"end\": 97.847, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 97.847, \"end\": 98.227, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 98.227, \"end\": 99.248, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"塊\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 99.248, \"end\": 99.648, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 99.648, \"end\": 99.948, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, 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00:01:26,334\n那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500那可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高\n\n5\n00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:27,737\n李卓人議員\n\n6\n00:01:36,187 --> 00:02:02,952\n所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳定價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看\n\n7\n00:02:04,372 --> 00:02:32,123\n那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅也太低了所以他們也會拉起來\n\n8\n00:02:32,583 --> 00:02:59,249\n所以我們這個是他們去年的價格啦那韓國呢減碳成效是不好的啦所以基本上越低的成效當然是不好的對部長所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年慶我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買\n\n9\n00:03:01,670 --> 00:03:17,975\n高昂的商品有打折,而且打到骨折,我們碳費效法這樣的精神,所以定價300塊,可是針對某些特定高排碳的那個產業提供優惠方案A,那一公噸只要50元,那其他產業如果透過一些先進的技術的話\n\n10\n00:03:21,806 --> 00:03:45,593\n每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜\n\n11\n00:03:46,297 --> 00:04:08,246\n所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果\n\n12\n00:04:09,046 --> 00:04:37,412\n其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習所以這個其實是一個\n\n13\n00:04:38,692 --> 00:05:03,906\n可是真的是這樣嗎?我剛剛講是外部成本會造成我們外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶,像台塑石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你這邊表單裡邊,剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的\n\n14\n00:05:04,646 --> 00:05:26,200\n因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交1億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到1億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠\n\n15\n00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:47,030\n報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行\n\n16\n00:05:47,970 --> 00:05:50,411\n市長,我還是說一聲辛苦了,因為碳費制定當然很不容易,可是也必須要深刻檢討了,因為我從質詢一開始到現在,就質疑\n\n17\n00:06:10,737 --> 00:06:17,501\n10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法\n\n18\n00:06:34,147 --> 00:07:01,406\n所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕千萬不能\n\n19\n00:07:01,866 --> 00:07:02,326\n李卓人議員\n\n20\n00:07:18,877 --> 00:07:33,861\n未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大\n\n21\n00:07:37,947 --> 00:08:03,476\n目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸\n\n22\n00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:14,823\n環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數,所以23期大概何時會去啟動?\n\n23\n00:08:17,286 --> 00:08:39,407\n這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系\n\n24\n00:08:40,677 --> 00:09:07,430\n好第三就是雖然剛剛你有講說我們的像你在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成\n\n25\n00:09:08,410 --> 00:09:36,631\n有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情\n\n26\n00:09:37,150 --> 00:09:39,491\n最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼\n\n27\n00:09:55,680 --> 00:10:21,162\n因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊工作環境跟他的健康事實上很大的關係那有很多行業事實上是會受到影響像高溫紫外線的輻射、極端氣候的還有做場所的空氣汙染這些都會造成一些勞工的健康問題所以想問一下未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼\n\n28\n00:10:22,413 --> 00:10:24,974\n不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康\n\n29\n00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:48,810\n林月琴委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7384\t9766\t主席好 麻煩部長請彭部長林委員早部長早我們今天要討論的我想也是全國關注的\n19178\t41353\t那這個議題在你上任我就有質詢那當時我很在意三件事也是今天要質詢追問的就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢上週已經10月7號已經出來了那可是這每公噸300元雖然剛剛你報告講說好像事實上是比其他國家事實上還算\n42421\t44582\t第3個,碳費收到之後,到底作為什麼樣的用途?\n58683\t86334\t那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500那可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高\n87236\t87737\t李卓人議員\n96187\t122952\t所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳定價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看\n124372\t152123\t那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅也太低了所以他們也會拉起來\n152583\t179249\t所以我們這個是他們去年的價格啦那韓國呢減碳成效是不好的啦所以基本上越低的成效當然是不好的對部長所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年慶我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買\n181670\t197975\t高昂的商品有打折,而且打到骨折,我們碳費效法這樣的精神,所以定價300塊,可是針對某些特定高排碳的那個產業提供優惠方案A,那一公噸只要50元,那其他產業如果透過一些先進的技術的話\n201806\t225593\t每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜\n226297\t248246\t所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果\n249046\t277412\t其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習所以這個其實是一個\n278692\t303906\t可是真的是這樣嗎?我剛剛講是外部成本會造成我們外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶,像台塑石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你這邊表單裡邊,剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的\n304646\t326200\t因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交1億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到1億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠\n327120\t347030\t報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行\n347970\t350411\t市長,我還是說一聲辛苦了,因為碳費制定當然很不容易,可是也必須要深刻檢討了,因為我從質詢一開始到現在,就質疑\n370737\t377501\t10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法\n394147\t421406\t所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕千萬不能\n421866\t422326\t李卓人議員\n438877\t453861\t未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大\n457947\t483476\t目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好 第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸\n489879\t494823\t環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數,所以23期大概何時會去啟動?\n497286\t519407\t這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系\n520677\t547430\t好 第三就是 雖然剛剛你有講說 我們的 像你在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成\n548410\t576631\t有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情\n577150\t579491\t最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼\n595680\t621162\t因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊工作環境跟他的健康事實上很大的關係那有很多行業事實上是會受到影響像高溫紫外線的輻射、極端氣候的還有做場所的空氣汙染這些都會造成一些勞工的健康問題所以想問一下未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼\n622413\t624974\t不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康\n648550\t648810\t林月琴委員\n","txt":"主席好 麻煩部長請彭部長林委員早部長早我們今天要討論的我想也是全國關注的\n那這個議題在你上任我就有質詢那當時我很在意三件事也是今天要質詢追問的就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢上週已經10月7號已經出來了那可是這每公噸300元雖然剛剛你報告講說好像事實上是比其他國家事實上還算\n第3個,碳費收到之後,到底作為什麼樣的用途?\n那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500那可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高\n李卓人議員\n所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳定價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看\n那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅也太低了所以他們也會拉起來\n所以我們這個是他們去年的價格啦那韓國呢減碳成效是不好的啦所以基本上越低的成效當然是不好的對部長所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年慶我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買\n高昂的商品有打折,而且打到骨折,我們碳費效法這樣的精神,所以定價300塊,可是針對某些特定高排碳的那個產業提供優惠方案A,那一公噸只要50元,那其他產業如果透過一些先進的技術的話\n每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜\n所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果\n其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習所以這個其實是一個\n可是真的是這樣嗎?我剛剛講是外部成本會造成我們外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶,像台塑石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你這邊表單裡邊,剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的\n因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交1億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到1億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠\n報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行\n市長,我還是說一聲辛苦了,因為碳費制定當然很不容易,可是也必須要深刻檢討了,因為我從質詢一開始到現在,就質疑\n10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法\n所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕千萬不能\n李卓人議員\n未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大\n目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好 第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸\n環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數,所以23期大概何時會去啟動?\n這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系\n好 第三就是 雖然剛剛你有講說 我們的 像你在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成\n有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情\n最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼\n因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊工作環境跟他的健康事實上很大的關係那有很多行業事實上是會受到影響像高溫紫外線的輻射、極端氣候的還有做場所的空氣汙染這些都會造成一些勞工的健康問題所以想問一下未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼\n不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康\n林月琴委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.384 --> 00:09.766\n主席好麻煩部長請彭部長林委員早部長早我們今天要討論的我想也是全國關注的\n\n00:19.178 --> 00:41.353\n那這個議題在你上任我就有質詢那當時我很在意三件事也是今天要質詢追問的就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢上週已經10月7號已經出來了那可是這每公噸300元雖然剛剛你報告講說好像事實上是比其他國家事實上還算\n\n00:42.421 --> 00:44.582\n第3個,碳費收到之後,到底作為什麼樣的用途?\n\n00:58.683 --> 01:26.334\n那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500那可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高\n\n01:27.236 --> 01:27.737\n李卓人議員\n\n01:36.187 --> 02:02.952\n所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳定價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看\n\n02:04.372 --> 02:32.123\n那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅也太低了所以他們也會拉起來\n\n02:32.583 --> 02:59.249\n所以我們這個是他們去年的價格啦那韓國呢減碳成效是不好的啦所以基本上越低的成效當然是不好的對部長所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年慶我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買\n\n03:01.670 --> 03:17.975\n高昂的商品有打折,而且打到骨折,我們碳費效法這樣的精神,所以定價300塊,可是針對某些特定高排碳的那個產業提供優惠方案A,那一公噸只要50元,那其他產業如果透過一些先進的技術的話\n\n03:21.806 --> 03:45.593\n每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜\n\n03:46.297 --> 04:08.246\n所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果\n\n04:09.046 --> 04:37.412\n其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習所以這個其實是一個\n\n04:38.692 --> 05:03.906\n可是真的是這樣嗎?我剛剛講是外部成本會造成我們外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶,像台塑石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你這邊表單裡邊,剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的\n\n05:04.646 --> 05:26.200\n因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交1億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到1億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠\n\n05:27.120 --> 05:47.030\n報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行\n\n05:47.970 --> 05:50.411\n市長,我還是說一聲辛苦了,因為碳費制定當然很不容易,可是也必須要深刻檢討了,因為我從質詢一開始到現在,就質疑\n\n06:10.737 --> 06:17.501\n10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法\n\n06:34.147 --> 07:01.406\n所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕千萬不能\n\n07:01.866 --> 07:02.326\n李卓人議員\n\n07:18.877 --> 07:33.861\n未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大\n\n07:37.947 --> 08:03.476\n目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸\n\n08:09.879 --> 08:14.823\n環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數,所以23期大概何時會去啟動?\n\n08:17.286 --> 08:39.407\n這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系\n\n08:40.677 --> 09:07.430\n好第三就是雖然剛剛你有講說我們的像你在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成\n\n09:08.410 --> 09:36.631\n有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情\n\n09:37.150 --> 09:39.491\n最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼\n\n09:55.680 --> 10:21.162\n因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊工作環境跟他的健康事實上很大的關係那有很多行業事實上是會受到影響像高溫紫外線的輻射、極端氣候的還有做場所的空氣汙染這些都會造成一些勞工的健康問題所以想問一下未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼\n\n10:22.413 --> 10:24.974\n不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康\n\n10:48.550 --> 10:48.810\n林月琴委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.384,"end":9.766,"text":"主席好 麻煩部長請彭部長林委員早部長早我們今天要討論的我想也是全國關注的"},{"start":19.178,"end":41.353,"text":"那這個議題在你上任我就有質詢那當時我很在意三件事也是今天要質詢追問的就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢上週已經10月7號已經出來了那可是這每公噸300元雖然剛剛你報告講說好像事實上是比其他國家事實上還算"},{"start":42.421,"end":44.582,"text":"第3個,碳費收到之後,到底作為什麼樣的用途?"},{"start":58.683,"end":86.334,"text":"那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500那可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高"},{"start":87.236,"end":87.737,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":96.187,"end":122.952,"text":"所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳定價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看"},{"start":124.372,"end":152.123,"text":"那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅也太低了所以他們也會拉起來"},{"start":152.583,"end":179.249,"text":"所以我們這個是他們去年的價格啦那韓國呢減碳成效是不好的啦所以基本上越低的成效當然是不好的對部長所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年慶我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買"},{"start":181.67,"end":197.975,"text":"高昂的商品有打折,而且打到骨折,我們碳費效法這樣的精神,所以定價300塊,可是針對某些特定高排碳的那個產業提供優惠方案A,那一公噸只要50元,那其他產業如果透過一些先進的技術的話"},{"start":201.806,"end":225.593,"text":"每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜"},{"start":226.297,"end":248.246,"text":"所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果"},{"start":249.046,"end":277.412,"text":"其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習所以這個其實是一個"},{"start":278.692,"end":303.906,"text":"可是真的是這樣嗎?我剛剛講是外部成本會造成我們外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶,像台塑石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你這邊表單裡邊,剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的"},{"start":304.646,"end":326.2,"text":"因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交1億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到1億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠"},{"start":327.12,"end":347.03,"text":"報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行"},{"start":347.97,"end":350.411,"text":"市長,我還是說一聲辛苦了,因為碳費制定當然很不容易,可是也必須要深刻檢討了,因為我從質詢一開始到現在,就質疑"},{"start":370.737,"end":377.501,"text":"10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法"},{"start":394.147,"end":421.406,"text":"所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕千萬不能"},{"start":421.866,"end":422.326,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":438.877,"end":453.861,"text":"未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大"},{"start":457.947,"end":483.476,"text":"目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好 第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸"},{"start":489.879,"end":494.823,"text":"環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數,所以23期大概何時會去啟動?"},{"start":497.286,"end":519.407,"text":"這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系"},{"start":520.677,"end":547.43,"text":"好 第三就是 雖然剛剛你有講說 我們的 像你在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成"},{"start":548.41,"end":576.631,"text":"有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情"},{"start":577.15,"end":579.491,"text":"最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼"},{"start":595.68,"end":621.162,"text":"因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊工作環境跟他的健康事實上很大的關係那有很多行業事實上是會受到影響像高溫紫外線的輻射、極端氣候的還有做場所的空氣汙染這些都會造成一些勞工的健康問題所以想問一下未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼"},{"start":622.413,"end":624.974,"text":"不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康"},{"start":648.55,"end":648.81,"text":"林月琴委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:25:02 - 09:36:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155399,"gazette":{"lineno":260,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時25分）主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。我們今天要討論的議題我想也是全國關注的，這個議題在你上任時我就有質詢，當時我很在意三件事，也是今天要質詢追問的，就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢，上週10月7號已經出來了，每公噸是300元，雖然剛剛你報告時提到，好像對比其他國家來說，對工商團體還算OK，可是看起來社會各界對這個價格都是不滿意的。第二個，碳費未來是不是能夠實質達到我們所講的排碳效果還是虛應了事，不知道！第三個，碳費收到之後，到底作為什麼樣的用途？確實，我們看到剛剛環境部的簡報，我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說，我們覺得這個定價雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差，公民團體是期待到500嘛，可是我覺得勉強接受，因為你剛剛說這300塊的確很前瞻、很大膽，相對於日本跟韓國、新加坡，的確，事實上我們的定價不是太高，但也還是比一些其他國家高，而且高出不少。所以我想問一下，雖然這是開會的結果，所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊，訂出來的又比其他國家高，這是什麼原因？是不是請部長解釋一下？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說，其實碳定價還包含了化石燃料稅等等，日本跟韓國的化石燃料稅大概是我們的將近2.5倍到3倍左右，所以其實那個要統一來看，我們碳費的價格是考量到企業的競爭力，所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看，我們300塊的定義呢，當時委員在上一次（第五次）是300到500，他們後來有討論到是不是直接就訂定一個價格出來，後來他們定為300。當然我知道環團很不滿意，我也很清楚，但是我們其實也考量到未來在國際競爭上如果不往上走的話，其實那個錢都要繳到國外去，所以我們還是折衷有一個費率。","在這邊也跟委員報告，我上禮拜在日本，日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅太低了，所以他們也會拉起來，螢幕上這個是他們去年的價格啦。至於韓國的減碳成效是不好的，基本上那種越低的減碳成效當然是比較不好。"],["林委員月琴：對，部長，所以我這邊寫的是，我們的定價很國際，可是優惠很臺灣，為什麼我會講很有臺灣味，因為臺灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會，就像最近百貨公司週年慶，我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上，很多我們的買眾會去買，為什麼？因為定價高昂的商品有打折，而且打到骨折，我們碳費效法這樣的精神，所以定價300塊，可是針對某些特定高排碳的產業提供優惠方案A，一公噸只要50元，其他產業如果透過一些先進技術的話，事實上每公噸只要收100元，又因為擔心我們的高排碳產業可能導致所謂的碳洩漏風險，所以我們又訂出了一個排放量調整係數，50元再打2折，所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢，比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜。","部長，我的看法是，根據美國環保署的研究來看的話，每噸排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊，約新臺幣5,800塊耶，所以我們定價打折的結果，對臺灣的環境跟我們廠商的減碳是不是有效果？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們不能只看那個價格，我舉例以某些1,000萬噸的排碳業者來看的話，它要做到減個100萬噸所花的成本就如同你說的，可能是一噸要5,000塊，我們其實是不要一下子就給它拉到這麼高，初步的讓它有一個誘因來做，所以我們是設定一種打折的原理。我跟委員報告，我們跟日本討論的結果，他們反而很羨慕，他們覺得我們的制度比較有彈性，他們要來跟我們學習，所以這個其實是一個折衷後的結果、鼓勵的結果。"],["林委員月琴：可是真的是這樣嗎？我剛剛講的是外部成本會造成我們減碳的效果，所以我比較質疑這一點，原因很簡單，是因為對比這些公司的營收，尤其這三大戶，像台塑石化、中國鋼鐵跟台積電，如果比照剛剛你自己的報告裡面有特別去提的，如果按照排碳大戶，我覺得排碳到1,000萬公噸的工廠的話，最低只要繳交1億，他們收的是上兆的營收，可是碳費只要繳1億，這樣子到底有效嗎？所以我想問一下部長，營收數千億，而碳費只占它營收的九牛一毛，你覺得這樣的力道、誘因是否足夠？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這件事情牽涉到有些臺灣的企業，其實我們跟經濟部也討論過，他們也完整的讓我們了解說，的確我們的AI產業很不錯，可是有很多傳產業，像中鋼、中石化，他們經營上其實遇到很大的困難，所以我們這一次完全是採誘因的方式來進行。但是也跟委員報告，我們發現其實這個制度很困難、很辛苦，沒有辦法兼顧每一個企業，所以我期許自己未來我們是要走到總量管制的碳交易，會比較有人性，會比較更符合需求……"],["林委員月琴：部長，我還是說一聲辛苦了，因為碳費制定當然很不容易，可是也必須要深刻檢討。我從質詢一開始到現在就質疑，我們的單價高於對照國，可是又打折打到欠缺誘因，這個質疑的聲音不是只有我這樣講。10月7號定價一出，工商團體、環保團體，甚至連我們的行政部門經濟部通通都不買單，大家最有共識的就是一致不諒解這樣的定價跟作法。","所以，部長，你自己來自我們民間團體，過去你對於很多，甚至碳費這個你也知道事實上應該是臺灣未來必經之路，可是過去我們很少看到一個政策出來之後沒有一方，有時是政府會滿意，或者是民間團體會滿意，可是現在沒有一方是滿意的，我覺得這對於新政府來講是一個警訊。這一點我覺得政府必須要深深警惕，千萬不能忽視，要嘛就是即時調整我們的政策方向，要嘛就是要講清楚、說明白，否則現在民間事實上還是存在著很大的疑慮，所以，千萬不要存著行政部門的傲慢來逼民間吞下這樣的一個結果。","關於碳費的未來，我有四個問題要問我們的部長，第一個，目前根據環境部給我的資訊，這也是上個會期我就有問的問題，就是我們徵收碳費的範圍大概只占全國排碳量的55%，其他45%排碳量的部分，預計何時會擴大徵收範圍？"],["彭部長啓明：這部分目前我們兩年會檢討一次，同時我們也會觀察國際的趨勢，舉例來說像歐盟，他們的ETS第二階段大概在2027年要涵蓋到85%，那個影響層面就很大了，所以我們會觀察國際走向並且兩年來檢討一次。"],["林委員月琴：好。第二，這也是上個會期我一直很關心的，就是當初我們比較不希望有2.5萬公噸的免徵額度，可是現在已經確定是事實，請問免徵額何時降為1.5到1萬公噸？再來，環保團體比較關心的是我們排放量的調整係數，所以二、三期大概何時會啟動？"],["彭部長啓明：這個大概也是要兩年，因為目前其實初期應該不會那麼快，我們希望經營到可能兩、三年以後有一個基準年，有一個成效之後我們再來看。但是我也必須跟委員報告，其實做這個決定，一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業，這是最大的問題，所以我們比較期待未來能實施總量管制的碳交易，才會製造減碳的生態系。"],["林委員月琴：好。第三，你接受媒體採訪的時候也講說，你們跟歐盟的官員有就這部分交換過意見，就是說未來事實上是可以去銜接的，可是我要問的是我們臺灣版的，剛剛你也提過說我們要做，那到底是明年會去草擬臺灣版的CBAM，還是什麼時候完成？有依據嗎？已經規劃了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，我們要要求進口的，就是我們本地要收碳費的業者，如果競爭對手有進口的一定要去申報，我們會協調經濟部還有財政部一起來做這個事情。第二個，關於台版的CBAM，其實這是很複雜的，我們也在觀察歐盟，因為歐盟要到明年年中細節才會出來，現在都還是試行申報的階段，所以我們希望等到明年他們的方案出來，全世界整個趨勢明朗之後，我們一定會來做這個事情。"],["林委員月琴：這是工商團體在問的，因為他也擔心我們對自己國內的企業徵收碳費，可是如果國外的進到臺灣來卻沒有管制的話，那對他們來講一樣也是不利。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：最後一個問題就是，我們徵收碳費之後，未來你的用途到底是什麼？根據國際勞工組織今年4月所提出的一份報告顯示，氣候變遷對工作環境的安全衛生與勞工的健康有很大的關係，有很多行業事實上會受到影響，像高溫、紫外線輻射、極端天氣事件還有工作場所的空氣污染等等，都會造成一些勞工的健康問題。所以想問一下，未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳費這部分要一年半後才會收到，目前根據氣候變遷因應法裡面所規範的用途，大概就是會用於跟減碳相關的事務。當然，我也跟委員報告，其實我接受到地方政府首長跟我的要求，加起來超過1,000億，許願池啦，但是我們只有60億……"],["林委員月琴：不過我還是期待，未來收到的碳費的使用，我還是希望有部分是用於照顧國人的健康……"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員月琴：這才會是全民受惠，畢竟事實上這是因為氣候變遷帶來的一些影響之後，那收到的一些費用是不是可以用於照顧國人的健康，這樣子也會比較獲得國人的支持。謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}