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\"start\": 554.862, \"end\": 554.883, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,370 --> 00:00:09,272\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代\n\n2\n00:00:32,621 --> 00:00:33,662\n其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間\n\n3\n00:00:49,808 --> 00:01:11,883\n而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳\n\n4\n00:01:18,667 --> 00:01:33,773\n而且也要保有我們台灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道\n\n5\n00:01:34,833 --> 00:01:34,893\n王育敏\n\n6\n00:01:55,179 --> 00:01:55,279\n王育敏\n\n7\n00:02:20,189 --> 00:02:37,998\n經濟部跟委員做一個說明,我們在疫後條例的預算有框了大概100多億,然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤查,然後從老闆、CEO班一直到員工。你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年?三年。\n\n8\n00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:51,047\n所以一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?是的,然後跟委員報告那這樣真的不夠啊,剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了\n\n9\n00:02:53,083 --> 00:02:53,223\n王育敏議員\n\n10\n00:03:23,423 --> 00:03:48,264\n那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊\n\n11\n00:03:50,066 --> 00:04:11,505\n那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型\n\n12\n00:04:12,404 --> 00:04:19,555\n報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少\n\n13\n00:04:22,679 --> 00:04:44,427\n跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的\n\n14\n00:04:47,168 --> 00:05:04,826\n像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本是發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場\n\n15\n00:05:07,228 --> 00:05:34,642\n所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難\n\n16\n00:05:35,743 --> 00:06:00,331\n因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題\n\n17\n00:06:01,431 --> 00:06:18,735\n報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債\n\n18\n00:06:22,076 --> 00:06:50,534\n氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度\n\n19\n00:06:51,154 --> 00:07:06,239\n以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到\n\n20\n00:07:07,859 --> 00:07:28,200\n沒有辦法做這樣的力道是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來\n\n21\n00:07:29,421 --> 00:07:53,131\n最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭\n\n22\n00:07:54,071 --> 00:08:17,379\n就代表說他這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實他周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到\n\n23\n00:08:17,819 --> 00:08:28,606\n要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在\n\n24\n00:08:46,916 --> 00:09:13,822\n這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的\n\n25\n00:09:14,862 --> 00:09:14,883\n實質檢探\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5370\t9272\t謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代\n32621\t33662\t其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間\n49808\t71883\t而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳\n78667\t93773\t而且也要保有我們台灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道\n94833\t94893\t王育敏\n115179\t115279\t王育敏\n140189\t157998\t經濟部跟委員做一個說明,我們在疫後條例的預算有框了大概100多億,然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤查,然後從老闆、CEO班一直到員工。你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年?三年。\n161340\t171047\t所以一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?是的,然後跟委員報告那這樣真的不夠啊,剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了\n173083\t173223\t王育敏議員\n203423\t228264\t那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊\n230066\t251505\t那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型\n252404\t259555\t報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少\n262679\t284427\t跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的\n287168\t304826\t像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本是發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場\n307228\t334642\t所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難\n335743\t360331\t因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題\n361431\t378735\t報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債\n382076\t410534\t氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度\n411154\t426239\t以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到\n427859\t448200\t沒有辦法做這樣的力道是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來\n449421\t473131\t最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭\n474071\t497379\t就代表說他這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實他周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到\n497819\t508606\t要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在\n526916\t553822\t這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的\n554862\t554883\t實質檢探\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代\n其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間\n而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳\n而且也要保有我們台灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道\n王育敏\n王育敏\n經濟部跟委員做一個說明,我們在疫後條例的預算有框了大概100多億,然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤查,然後從老闆、CEO班一直到員工。你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年?三年。\n所以一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?是的,然後跟委員報告那這樣真的不夠啊,剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了\n王育敏議員\n那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊\n那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型\n報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少\n跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的\n像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本是發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場\n所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難\n因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題\n報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債\n氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度\n以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到\n沒有辦法做這樣的力道是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來\n最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭\n就代表說他這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實他周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到\n要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在\n這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的\n實質檢探\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.370 --> 00:09.272\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代\n\n00:32.621 --> 00:33.662\n其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間\n\n00:49.808 --> 01:11.883\n而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳\n\n01:18.667 --> 01:33.773\n而且也要保有我們台灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道\n\n01:34.833 --> 01:34.893\n王育敏\n\n01:55.179 --> 01:55.279\n王育敏\n\n02:20.189 --> 02:37.998\n經濟部跟委員做一個說明,我們在疫後條例的預算有框了大概100多億,然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤查,然後從老闆、CEO班一直到員工。你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年?三年。\n\n02:41.340 --> 02:51.047\n所以一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?是的,然後跟委員報告那這樣真的不夠啊,剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了\n\n02:53.083 --> 02:53.223\n王育敏議員\n\n03:23.423 --> 03:48.264\n那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊\n\n03:50.066 --> 04:11.505\n那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型\n\n04:12.404 --> 04:19.555\n報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少\n\n04:22.679 --> 04:44.427\n跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的\n\n04:47.168 --> 05:04.826\n像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本是發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場\n\n05:07.228 --> 05:34.642\n所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難\n\n05:35.743 --> 06:00.331\n因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題\n\n06:01.431 --> 06:18.735\n報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債\n\n06:22.076 --> 06:50.534\n氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度\n\n06:51.154 --> 07:06.239\n以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到\n\n07:07.859 --> 07:28.200\n沒有辦法做這樣的力道是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來\n\n07:29.421 --> 07:53.131\n最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭\n\n07:54.071 --> 08:17.379\n就代表說他這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實他周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到\n\n08:17.819 --> 08:28.606\n要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在\n\n08:46.916 --> 09:13.822\n這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的\n\n09:14.862 --> 09:14.883\n實質檢探\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.37,"end":9.272,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代"},{"start":32.621,"end":33.662,"text":"其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間"},{"start":49.808,"end":71.883,"text":"而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳"},{"start":78.667,"end":93.773,"text":"而且也要保有我們台灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道"},{"start":94.833,"end":94.893,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":115.179,"end":115.279,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":140.189,"end":157.998,"text":"經濟部跟委員做一個說明,我們在疫後條例的預算有框了大概100多億,然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤查,然後從老闆、CEO班一直到員工。你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年?三年。"},{"start":161.34,"end":171.047,"text":"所以一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?是的,然後跟委員報告那這樣真的不夠啊,剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了"},{"start":173.083,"end":173.223,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":203.423,"end":228.264,"text":"那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊"},{"start":230.066,"end":251.505,"text":"那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型"},{"start":252.404,"end":259.555,"text":"報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少"},{"start":262.679,"end":284.427,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的"},{"start":287.168,"end":304.826,"text":"像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本是發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場"},{"start":307.228,"end":334.642,"text":"所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難"},{"start":335.743,"end":360.331,"text":"因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題"},{"start":361.431,"end":378.735,"text":"報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債"},{"start":382.076,"end":410.534,"text":"氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度"},{"start":411.154,"end":426.239,"text":"以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到"},{"start":427.859,"end":448.2,"text":"沒有辦法做這樣的力道是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來"},{"start":449.421,"end":473.131,"text":"最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭"},{"start":474.071,"end":497.379,"text":"就代表說他這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實他周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到"},{"start":497.819,"end":508.606,"text":"要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在"},{"start":526.916,"end":553.822,"text":"這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的"},{"start":554.862,"end":554.883,"text":"實質檢探"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:36:12 - 09:45:35","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155401,"gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時36分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員早。"],["王委員育敏：部長早。我想碳費的徵收，這件事情的確非常不容易，基本上我還是要肯定，至少我們踏出了這一步。相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡，我們臺灣啟動碳定價的時代其實是太晚了，我們到114年才正式啟動，但是看看鄰近的國家，日本從2008年就開始，韓國2015年就在做，新加坡2019年也開始，我們晚了人家很多時間。而晚了其他國家很多時間，就造成我們能夠準備跟因應的時間被壓縮得很短，像歐盟，它在2026年就啟動了它的CBAM，在這樣的情況下，我們臺灣準備的時間這麼短，怎麼樣落實讓我們啟動的碳定價時達到雙贏的目標？所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳，而且也要保有我們臺灣企業的競爭力，這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單，而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素，就是我們可以去加大政府的輔導力道跟措施，但是在這個部分，目前我看到的，坦白講還是相對薄弱。","今天經濟部也有代表列席，經濟部產發署楊署長是不是也一起上臺。在你們的報告裡面一直提到，要提高企業保有競爭力，但是我看你們的報告，也沒有太多實質輔導企業的措施，包括我們現在總共要投入多少的經費預算，這個部分其實都沒有看到。我可以問兩位嗎？環境部跟經濟部加起來，我們現在要輔導企業來做有效減碳的整體經費，請問加起來有多少錢？"],["楊署長志清：經濟部跟委員做一個說明，我們在疫後條例的部分，有匡列大概100多億的預算是針對我們的製造業，從說明會開始，讓他知道什麼是碳盤查，然後從老闆（CEO）班一直到員工、到總……"],["王委員育敏：這100億是一年的經費，還是幾年的經費？"],["楊署長志清：三年。"],["王委員育敏：對啊，所以平均下來一年大概只有30億嘛。"],["楊署長志清：是的。然後跟委員報告，還有一些工作……"],["王委員育敏：那這樣真的不夠啊！剛剛部長自己說，各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1,000億了，那你們的力道真的是非常的不足喔！另外一個，我要讓部長看看你們自己編的預算，我們說減碳這麼的重要，但是你們在今年所送出來的預算當中，包括氣候變遷署的年度預算、淨零路徑減量效益整合評估還有氣候變遷調適行動推動與策略研析，你所有的預算都是減列的。氣候變遷署整體減列的預算高達5,000萬；淨零路徑減量效益評估部分，你的預算也減列了一千多萬，如此我們怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢？為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們環境部的氣候署是做整個政策的規劃，很多的執行包含要跟經濟部還有各個部會合作，是大家一起來推動的，所以不是說我們這邊少編就……"],["王委員育敏：但是減列也不合理，照道理來講，這個要上路你要做的事情很多，基本上你的公務預算不應該還減列啊！另外，要額外增加其他的預算才對。所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億。部長，我請問你，環境部額外的，針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡？你如果公務預算都是減列的，那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府、這些企業做有效的轉型？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們的基金有增加，第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金，這個費用有顯著增加，所以我們……"],["王委員育敏：增加了多少？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，我們現在溫管基金113年的編列是五億多，明年的話有稍微增加到六億多。"],["王委員育敏：還增加了1億啊！所以我要講的是，我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚，一個是準備的配套不足；第三個，我們看到的是，我們真的可以提列出來的這些錢，其實相較於各國都是少的。像歐盟2023年是超過百億歐元這樣的資金；美國是240億美元用於低碳轉型和賦稅抵免；日本是發行了20兆日圓的綠色債券；韓國是擴大企業投資補貼，活絡碳權市場。相較底下我覺得現在經濟部跟環境部，我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足。所以這個也會造成，剛剛部長，我有聽到您在回答，您講到這件事情很困難，的確很困難，但是如果我們政府、如果行政院沒有這樣的意識，我們整體投入的資金不足，我覺得真正落實還會更加困難。就是你畫了一個很好的圖，但是實質上企業遇到很多困難，根本落實不了，然後政府又沒有資金去補助和輔導，所以最後減碳就會一事無成。我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度，但實質達到的效果、成效恐怕會大打折扣，這是一個最大的問題。部長，你有沒有跟行政院卓院長反映這樣的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我上個禮拜在日本就是去關注委員所關注的事情，日本結合了環境省、經產省還有財政廳，3個部會一起合作成立一個綠色成長基金，未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債，就是氣候債券，也帶動民間投資，總共是150兆。這件事情我也跟卓院長報告，所以他要我不斷地研析，因為這個東西也需要大院的同意支持，我們才可能轉型得過來。的確從我上任後，我就跟院長報告這件事情，院長也非常支持，但是裡面有很多細節，包含預算還有效率、怎麼去進行，我們都一直在觀察成功國家所有的新制度。以我們現在政府的預算編列來做淨零，我必須說，全世界所有國家照正常的預算都很難做得到，都是新的方法……"],["王委員育敏：沒錯。"],["彭部長啓明：碳定價完了之後才有辦法做這個……"],["王委員育敏：這個也是我看到的問題，以我們現在的力道，我可以在這邊講，就是沒有辦法做到。沒有辦法做到，這樣的力道是非常不足的，所以這個部分，我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會，這個應該你們是要三位一體的。在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度、很強的，我們來輔助這些，特別是臺灣的中小企業又很多，你應該就這部分要好好去研擬一套計畫出來。","最後我要問你，在碳費部分，你們的估算，你說縣市政府需要1,000億，而你現在其實只有60億，這60億就顯得很可貴了，就是你這60億要怎麼優先運用。我這邊建議幾個重點，第一個，我們的碳費應該要考量徵收來源的比例，特別是排碳大戶周遭，代表它這邊需要更多的減碳設施和設備，所以你在分配資源的時候，應該要優先從這些區域開始落實，它周邊相關的減碳設施應該要好好地強化。","第二個，就地方政府，你應該要有一套機制，讓他們來申請，你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到，要中央跟地方一起做，所以要開放給地方政府，有一個計畫，你有一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請。透過這個計畫申請，有效地在地方回過頭去輔導各地的經發局，在地的產業，他們透過這個計畫，有效地輔導企業，落實相關的減碳，這樣子才能達到雙贏。這樣的一個標準，是不是部長可以承諾，未來納入這個……將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用，應該要有一個標準來落實和實施。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，委員，我們會照這樣的政策來做，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，我想要落實這件事情真的很困難，所以我們希望環境部和經濟部就是加把勁，行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀，要給這兩個部會更多資源，才有可能讓這件事情達到我們想要達到真正實質減碳的目標，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}