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00:00:13,776\n謝謝主席有請我們的彭部長彭部長委員早部長好部長早部長辛苦喔但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來了那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問喔那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢\n\n2\n00:00:40,193 --> 00:01:05,913\n現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢\n\n3\n00:01:06,954 --> 00:01:22,666\n部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題\n\n4\n00:01:35,663 --> 00:01:41,391\n那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應\n\n5\n00:01:42,157 --> 00:02:07,741\n第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情\n\n6\n00:02:07,881 --> 00:02:35,852\n那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上他沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們再去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在事深報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做\n\n7\n00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:58,798\n好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該要有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對\n\n8\n00:03:00,279 --> 00:03:14,372\n但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是\n\n9\n00:03:17,455 --> 00:03:43,166\n未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下它在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做\n\n10\n00:03:44,806 --> 00:04:02,143\n報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣他大幅降低供屋他的排碳量也減少了三分之一所以他的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢\n\n11\n00:04:02,883 --> 00:04:26,199\n當然有些國家的核能它是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講還是希望說\n\n12\n00:04:28,260 --> 00:04:46,454\n我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題的\n\n13\n00:04:47,034 --> 00:04:58,711\n不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路\n\n14\n00:04:59,332 --> 00:05:22,746\n但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟部定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次\n\n15\n00:05:28,190 --> 00:05:53,420\n現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案A每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數\n\n16\n00:05:54,921 --> 00:06:13,322\n你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這個自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠\n\n17\n00:06:15,965 --> 00:06:30,820\n包委其實我們的上市櫃公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大\n\n18\n00:06:32,742 --> 00:06:49,973\n那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做\n\n19\n00:06:50,563 --> 00:07:05,934\nOK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會,可能會...對,那你們現在,但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?\n\n20\n00:07:06,935 --> 00:07:27,056\n對,A或B,但是你們現在是用計算是B嘛,但是移到我們偵測目標,我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準,對不對?那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦,當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理,但大部分可能是以B方案為主體,然後去計算這個溫管收入喔。\n\n21\n00:07:27,717 --> 00:07:37,402\n那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案請問我們次長\n\n22\n00:07:38,615 --> 00:07:50,319\n委員好因為A方案其實它是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的徵收對象來講這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的大所以這樣子我們也才給他50塊的這個費率做優惠那其實就變成是要看每一個產業因為這個有行業別那裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業\n\n23\n00:08:04,804 --> 00:08:15,952\n所以可能要看每個徵收對象他自己去評估那我們也會協助如果他真的很有企圖心想要走方案A我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的\n\n24\n00:08:20,675 --> 00:08:20,795\n主席\n\n25\n00:08:40,177 --> 00:09:03,087\nCOP28城市氣候峰會指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與：所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告\n\n26\n00:09:04,075 --> 00:09:25,912\n這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會啦齁但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費齁我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園啦齁隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見\n\n27\n00:09:26,052 --> 00:09:50,237\n我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途\n\n28\n00:09:51,518 --> 00:10:02,815\n但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是\n\n29\n00:10:03,737 --> 00:10:23,760\n你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資\n\n30\n00:10:24,961 --> 00:10:44,868\n甚至是投資國人健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個\n\n31\n00:10:52,731 --> 00:11:15,092\n他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎\n\n32\n00:11:16,834 --> 00:11:17,434\n廖偉翔委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11175\t13776\t謝謝主席 有請我們的彭部長彭部長委員早部長好 部長早 部長辛苦喔 但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來了那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025 真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟 這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一 確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問喔 那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢\n40193\t65913\t現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢\n66954\t82666\t部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題\n95663\t101391\t那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應\n102157\t127741\t第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情\n127881\t155852\t那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上他沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們再去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在事深報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做\n157520\t178798\t好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該要有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對\n180279\t194372\t但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是\n197455\t223166\t未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下它在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做\n224806\t242143\t報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣他大幅降低供屋他的排碳量也減少了三分之一所以他的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢\n242883\t266199\t當然有些國家的核能它是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講還是希望說\n268260\t286454\t我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題的\n287034\t298711\t不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路\n299332\t322746\t但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟部定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次\n328190\t353420\t現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案A每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數\n354921\t373322\t你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這個自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠\n375965\t390820\t包委其實我們的上市櫃公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大\n392742\t409973\t那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做\n410563\t425934\tOK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會,可能會...對,那你們現在,但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?\n426935\t447056\t對,A或B,但是你們現在是用計算是B嘛,但是移到我們偵測目標,我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準,對不對?那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦,當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理,但大部分可能是以B方案為主體,然後去計算這個溫管收入喔。\n447717\t457402\t那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案請問我們次長\n458615\t470319\t委員好 因為A方案其實它是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準 行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的徵收對象來講 這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的大所以這樣子我們也才給他50塊的這個費率做優惠那其實就變成是要看每一個產業 因為這個有行業別 那裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業\n484804\t495952\t所以可能要看每個徵收對象他自己去評估那我們也會協助如果他真的很有企圖心想要走方案A我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的\n500675\t500795\t主席\n520177\t543087\tCOP28城市氣候峰會指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與：所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告\n544075\t565912\t這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會啦齁但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費齁我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園啦齁隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見\n566052\t590237\t我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途\n591518\t602815\t但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是\n603737\t623760\t你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資\n624961\t644868\t甚至是投資國人健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個\n652731\t675092\t他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎\n676834\t677434\t廖偉翔委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請我們的彭部長彭部長委員早部長好 部長早 部長辛苦喔 但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來了那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025 真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟 這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一 確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問喔 那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢\n現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢\n部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題\n那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應\n第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情\n那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上他沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們再去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在事深報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做\n好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該要有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對\n但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是\n未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下它在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做\n報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣他大幅降低供屋他的排碳量也減少了三分之一所以他的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢\n當然有些國家的核能它是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講還是希望說\n我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題的\n不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路\n但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟部定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次\n現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案A每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數\n你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這個自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠\n包委其實我們的上市櫃公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大\n那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做\nOK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會,可能會...對,那你們現在,但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?\n對,A或B,但是你們現在是用計算是B嘛,但是移到我們偵測目標,我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準,對不對?那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦,當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理,但大部分可能是以B方案為主體,然後去計算這個溫管收入喔。\n那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案請問我們次長\n委員好 因為A方案其實它是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準 行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的徵收對象來講 這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的大所以這樣子我們也才給他50塊的這個費率做優惠那其實就變成是要看每一個產業 因為這個有行業別 那裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業\n所以可能要看每個徵收對象他自己去評估那我們也會協助如果他真的很有企圖心想要走方案A我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的\n主席\nCOP28城市氣候峰會指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與：所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告\n這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會啦齁但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費齁我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園啦齁隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見\n我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途\n但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是\n你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資\n甚至是投資國人健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個\n他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎\n廖偉翔委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.175 --> 00:13.776\n謝謝主席有請我們的彭部長彭部長委員早部長好部長早部長辛苦喔但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來了那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問喔那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢\n\n00:40.193 --> 01:05.913\n現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢\n\n01:06.954 --> 01:22.666\n部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題\n\n01:35.663 --> 01:41.391\n那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應\n\n01:42.157 --> 02:07.741\n第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情\n\n02:07.881 --> 02:35.852\n那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上他沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們再去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在事深報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做\n\n02:37.520 --> 02:58.798\n好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該要有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對\n\n03:00.279 --> 03:14.372\n但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是\n\n03:17.455 --> 03:43.166\n未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下它在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做\n\n03:44.806 --> 04:02.143\n報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣他大幅降低供屋他的排碳量也減少了三分之一所以他的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢\n\n04:02.883 --> 04:26.199\n當然有些國家的核能它是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講還是希望說\n\n04:28.260 --> 04:46.454\n我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題的\n\n04:47.034 --> 04:58.711\n不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路\n\n04:59.332 --> 05:22.746\n但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟部定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次\n\n05:28.190 --> 05:53.420\n現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案A每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數\n\n05:54.921 --> 06:13.322\n你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這個自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠\n\n06:15.965 --> 06:30.820\n包委其實我們的上市櫃公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大\n\n06:32.742 --> 06:49.973\n那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做\n\n06:50.563 --> 07:05.934\nOK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會,可能會...對,那你們現在,但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?\n\n07:06.935 --> 07:27.056\n對,A或B,但是你們現在是用計算是B嘛,但是移到我們偵測目標,我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準,對不對?那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦,當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理,但大部分可能是以B方案為主體,然後去計算這個溫管收入喔。\n\n07:27.717 --> 07:37.402\n那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案請問我們次長\n\n07:38.615 --> 07:50.319\n委員好因為A方案其實它是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的徵收對象來講這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的大所以這樣子我們也才給他50塊的這個費率做優惠那其實就變成是要看每一個產業因為這個有行業別那裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業\n\n08:04.804 --> 08:15.952\n所以可能要看每個徵收對象他自己去評估那我們也會協助如果他真的很有企圖心想要走方案A我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的\n\n08:20.675 --> 08:20.795\n主席\n\n08:40.177 --> 09:03.087\nCOP28城市氣候峰會指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與：所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告\n\n09:04.075 --> 09:25.912\n這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會啦齁但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費齁我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園啦齁隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見\n\n09:26.052 --> 09:50.237\n我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途\n\n09:51.518 --> 10:02.815\n但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是\n\n10:03.737 --> 10:23.760\n你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資\n\n10:24.961 --> 10:44.868\n甚至是投資國人健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個\n\n10:52.731 --> 11:15.092\n他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎\n\n11:16.834 --> 11:17.434\n廖偉翔委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.175,"end":13.776,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們的彭部長彭部長委員早部長好 部長早 部長辛苦喔 但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來了那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025 真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟 這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一 確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問喔 那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢"},{"start":40.193,"end":65.913,"text":"現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢"},{"start":66.954,"end":82.666,"text":"部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題"},{"start":95.663,"end":101.391,"text":"那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應"},{"start":102.157,"end":127.741,"text":"第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情"},{"start":127.881,"end":155.852,"text":"那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上他沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們再去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在事深報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做"},{"start":157.52,"end":178.798,"text":"好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該要有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對"},{"start":180.279,"end":194.372,"text":"但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是"},{"start":197.455,"end":223.166,"text":"未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下它在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做"},{"start":224.806,"end":242.143,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣他大幅降低供屋他的排碳量也減少了三分之一所以他的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢"},{"start":242.883,"end":266.199,"text":"當然有些國家的核能它是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講還是希望說"},{"start":268.26,"end":286.454,"text":"我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題的"},{"start":287.034,"end":298.711,"text":"不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路"},{"start":299.332,"end":322.746,"text":"但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟部定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次"},{"start":328.19,"end":353.42,"text":"現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案A每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數"},{"start":354.921,"end":373.322,"text":"你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這個自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠"},{"start":375.965,"end":390.82,"text":"包委其實我們的上市櫃公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大"},{"start":392.742,"end":409.973,"text":"那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做"},{"start":410.563,"end":425.934,"text":"OK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會,可能會...對,那你們現在,但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?"},{"start":426.935,"end":447.056,"text":"對,A或B,但是你們現在是用計算是B嘛,但是移到我們偵測目標,我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準,對不對?那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦,當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理,但大部分可能是以B方案為主體,然後去計算這個溫管收入喔。"},{"start":447.717,"end":457.402,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案請問我們次長"},{"start":458.615,"end":470.319,"text":"委員好 因為A方案其實它是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準 行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的徵收對象來講 這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的大所以這樣子我們也才給他50塊的這個費率做優惠那其實就變成是要看每一個產業 因為這個有行業別 那裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業"},{"start":484.804,"end":495.952,"text":"所以可能要看每個徵收對象他自己去評估那我們也會協助如果他真的很有企圖心想要走方案A我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的"},{"start":500.675,"end":500.795,"text":"主席"},{"start":520.177,"end":543.087,"text":"COP28城市氣候峰會指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與：所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告"},{"start":544.075,"end":565.912,"text":"這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會啦齁但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費齁我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園啦齁隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見"},{"start":566.052,"end":590.237,"text":"我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途"},{"start":591.518,"end":602.815,"text":"但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是"},{"start":603.737,"end":623.76,"text":"你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資"},{"start":624.961,"end":644.868,"text":"甚至是投資國人健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個"},{"start":652.731,"end":675.092,"text":"他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":676.834,"end":677.434,"text":"廖偉翔委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:45:40 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09:57:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155406,"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時45分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好、部長早，部長辛苦了。但是說真的，我們國家的碳費終於出來了，從2023、2024到2025，真的也是很久。你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟CBAM定義有效的碳價形式之一，確定可以抵扣，但我這裡想要請問，折抵的成數到底是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：它的細節大概明年年中才會出來，其實必須說它是一個國家、一個國家會來談，我們臺灣並不是歐盟前十大進出口國，所以我們有跟它談到，就是委員這邊提到的，明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意，我們會派駐人專門來協商這個事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，因為如果沒有辦法提高成數，沒有達到百分之百的話，那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢？如果超過2.5萬噸排放的280家企業，面臨的問題，但低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟，那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAM買憑證，對不對？請問部長，現在歐盟CBAM是針對我們的產品課徵，那我國的碳費是針對企業組織課徵，所以未來在和歐盟制度的接軌上，會不會有什麼潛在問題？還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的碳費折抵成數之後，才有辦法因應？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，委員擔心的，例如中部很多的扣件，包含螺絲、螺帽等等，因為很多歐洲進口車都是用臺灣的，所以他們的確是我們要關切輔導的，這個部分因為他們的細節還沒有出來，我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商，早一點幫助臺灣的產業，所以我們絕對會跟經濟部共同合作做這個事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我就想請問，兩個的時程上，這樣子會不會導致這些企業面臨到許多轉型上的問題，以及時程上它沒辦法因應，或甚至到時候出來以後，到底要怎麼幫助他們出口到歐洲的時候還有競爭力？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個是2026才正式實施，現在都在試申報，2027才要繳錢，所以我們大概還有2年的因應時間，但是2年說真的也非常緊迫。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們會加緊地做。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，依照現在我們公告的碳費收費辦法第三條，也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二，超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費嘛！我覺得製程與設施提升改善，當然一方面需要企業自己的努力，另外一方面，政府應該有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型，對不對？但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分，我覺得這就對企業是非常地不公平，原因是我國的能源結構，我們的碳排係數過高，現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%，火力可能要有20%、30%，幾乎就是未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣，還排除核能這個選項，會導致所有企業，在未來我們能源政策不變的情況之下，它在範疇二的計算部分會越來越增加。基本上就會變成是企業該改的也改了，它自己該努力的也努力了，但是我們的能源政策不變，還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它的競爭力。部長，你覺得這樣合理嗎？以及身為環境部，你覺得應該怎麼做？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個是，燃煤改燃氣，大幅降低空污，排碳量也減少了三分之一，所以它的排碳量，我們現在是0.495，預期大概到2030年，我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右，甚至要更低，那當然……"],["廖委員偉翔：跟其他有核能的國家比呢？"],["彭部長啓明：當然，有些國家的核能，它是有經過很穩定、穩健地溝通跟處理核廢料安全，都沒有問題才可以這樣做，我們也希望委員的想法如果是按照這個程序，當然這是一個清淨能源，我們也都尊重，但這其實還是需要大家的溝通和共識，因為核廢料還有安全性……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還沒有共識、還是無解嘛！以現在的執政黨來講，你們還是希望說……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是環境部長，我還沒有接到任何指示說要做任何調整，但是如果從淨零的角度……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，這個部分我就是要提醒你，從淨零的角度，這的確是會有問題，對不對？就是比起其他有務實的核能配比的國家，我們這樣子走下去，未來也的確會有問題。"],["彭部長啓明：不見得是一個問題。這是一個選擇的問題，因為任何能源的推動都有它的困難點，例如說太陽能或是風力發電，每一個能源轉型都很困難，所以這就必須找到一條適合臺灣的路啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣還是沒有回答到問題。好，沒關係，我大概知道你的立場，你也不方便說太多。","接下來，請教依碳費收費辦法的第五條和第六條，我們的排放量調整係數何時會跟經濟部訂出來？也就是我們的高洩漏係數。"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在的排碳係數就是0.2，未來兩年會調整一次，現在第一期就是0.2。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我講的意思是，你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30日前提交自主減量計畫，通過環境部核定之後，再申請高碳洩漏風險事業，才能適用方案A的每噸50元，或是方案B的每噸100元嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：可是你們要求企業在6月30日以前提交自主減量計畫，會不會有點太強人所難？"],["彭部長啓明：是明年6月30日喔！"],["廖委員偉翔：當然是明年6月30日啊！但是你要想，他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做、細節是什麼，再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也需要審查時間，這樣子的時間會不會不夠？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們的上市（櫃）公司還有我們觀察這些企業的ESG報告，寫得都很詳細，而且都非常有雄心，所以我相信他們寫的都不是「漂綠」，都是真實在做，所以這個問題應該是不大。當然，有一些企業不是上市（櫃）公司，它可能沒有寫ESG報告，相對的壓力就會比較多，我們會給它特別的輔導。所以我們環境部有一個專線，如果企業有問題，我們手把手教，甚至我們現在都有辦巡迴說明會，在教怎麼寫這個東西，這部分我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK。另外，你們現在溫管基金的估算收入是60億嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：到後年可能會……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是你們的政策目標也是希望要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標，應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：A或B。"],["廖委員偉翔：對啦，是A或B，但你們現在計算是用B嘛！就政策目標而言，我們當然希望他們都可以達到適用A方案的標準，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得這個部分是比較奇怪的邏輯，當然，你用B方案來計算可能是覺得這樣比較合理，因為大部分可能是以B方案為主體，所以據此去計算溫管基金的收入。這個部分是否能說明一下要投入多少資源，可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案？"],["彭部長啓明：請我們次長來說明。"],["施次長文真：委員好，因為A方案其實是國際上最嚴格的減量標準，行業別其實要減到42%，所以對於很多徵收對象來講，用A方案真的挑戰非常、非常大，這樣我們也才給它50塊的費率做優惠。其實就變成是要看每一個產業，因為這個有行業別，裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業，所以可能要由每個徵收對象自己去評估，我們也會協助，如果它真的很有企圖心，想要走方案A，我們會想辦法跟它一起去討論，但……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這是同樣的問題，就是我們到底有什麼具體的方案可以去指導民間企業轉型，因為現在我們在民間還是聽到非常多企業覺得很多東西好像不是很明確，比起歐盟的企業收到國家挹注的資金去幫助他們轉型，我們是遠遠不足的。這個部分我是希望部長你們要好好地帶回去，做好跨部會的整合。","接下來，COP 28城市氣候峰會也指出，國家的減碳目標要納入地方政府參與，所以也有學者或是地方政府說，政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4。我想請教部長，碳費的支用辦法和獎補助地方政府的比例何時會公告？"],["彭部長啓明：我們溫管基金應該是明年會開會，但是我也跟委員報告，因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候，他們也跟我們說，這個碳費要他們交可以，但是不能隨便去蓋公園、隨便做一些基本上屬於地方建設的事情，他們是有一些要求的，所以基本上這個東西都還在溝通當中，我們一定會廣納大家的意見。"],["廖委員偉翔：我是覺得給地方當然也是合理的，但重點是比例，你要它去投資淨零轉型的部分，也要讓地方有這樣的經費去做，因為這是中央、地方要一起連心的。我在講的主要是比例的問題，當然，你們那些細節和辦法可以認真去思考，因為收取碳費納入溫管基金，畢竟就是希望做淨零轉型之用，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我想要講的事情就是，舉例好了，就直接用我們臺中來講，我們中火在全世界是排名前幾大的火力發電廠，空污排名也很前面，是第19名，但是你們現在收的這些碳費，尤其是台電，最後是轉嫁到終端消費者身上，可是在地方上受到環境的影響、碳排的影響都是地方政府喔！所以這個部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助，然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分做更多的投資，甚至是投資國人健康等等的？這都是一個用途。所以這個部分我是不是可以請部長從寬思考一下應該要給地方更多，尤其是這種碳排設施很嚴重的地方？"],["彭部長啓明：好。委員，中央、地方是一定要攜手合作的啦！其實我們也算了一下，剛剛說的15億是錯的，其實大概1億左右而已。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是這個新聞的確是這樣，而且我剛剛講到了，其實所有的碳費會透過發電轉嫁到用戶身上，對不對？可是只有一億多在地方，可能它本身那個電廠要付的碳排的部分，可是中間有很多它製造出來的電、製造出來的碳排都已經在終端了，而真正承受這個碳排污染的是在地方啊！你懂我的意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，這個我們會列入考慮。"],["廖委員偉翔：邏輯上我覺得應該是這樣子，所以這個部分是不是應該要為地方多多思考一下？謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}