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00:00:35,474\n邱委員好部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心\n\n3\n00:00:37,194 --> 00:01:05,127\n本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望\n\n4\n00:01:06,195 --> 00:01:22,803\n那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然\n\n5\n00:01:24,535 --> 00:01:50,833\n檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在這個講到這個我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要一定要這個\n\n6\n00:01:53,243 --> 00:02:03,278\n抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300\n\n7\n00:02:08,786 --> 00:02:08,806\n邱鎮軍\n\n8\n00:02:25,167 --> 00:02:53,249\n委員剛才說的都是重點但是我也必須說台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家所以我們其實是慢了我們的確也會觀察說會不會不公平的現象例如說有些像越南因為印尼有越南東南亞有些國家其實我們台灣的碳費的量因為其實碳費如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低\n\n9\n00:02:53,809 --> 00:03:21,041\n那韓國的委員看到這5.7是對的但是韓國是進行這個總量管制的碳交易他的這個一噸的碳在這個市面上超過排蛋的話大概是18塊美金500多塊台幣的所以其實這個我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況那日本其實他也有東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢也差不多是500多塊台幣所以我們台灣的這個價錢是剛剛好那其實部長您講的這些我們都知道了但我要講的是我們台灣現在的這個\n\n10\n00:03:23,322 --> 00:03:48,382\n處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣呢你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%\n\n11\n00:03:51,370 --> 00:04:11,511\n對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者\n\n12\n00:04:13,052 --> 00:04:37,944\n當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將\n\n13\n00:04:43,702 --> 00:05:02,559\n那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額\n\n14\n00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:03,460\n韓國瑜議員\n\n15\n00:05:33,281 --> 00:05:46,848\n對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好\n\n16\n00:05:47,108 --> 00:05:47,908\n有些業者在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作\n\n17\n00:06:14,620 --> 00:06:29,012\n然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者\n\n18\n00:06:39,921 --> 00:06:41,542\n跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量\n\n19\n00:07:03,632 --> 00:07:23,563\n那當時他們這個做比技術標幹要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去\n\n20\n00:07:24,623 --> 00:07:53,059\n那剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用\n\n21\n00:07:55,193 --> 00:08:20,843\n臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?已經訂了是嗎?他們自己發電自己用的那個部分要用,要課但是公民生的就可以扣掉?就是所謂企業發電他的用的電乘以他的排碳係數那個就要繳碳費,企業自己要付那臺電勒?臺電大概是1000萬噸,他自發自用的自己產生的還有輸配電產生的大概1000萬噸那個要付\n\n22\n00:08:23,004 --> 00:08:43,310\n公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排\n\n23\n00:08:47,671 --> 00:08:49,352\n臺電有一些是可以有彈性的\n\n24\n00:09:11,244 --> 00:09:11,545\n謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4905\t6651\t主席好,我們一樣請彭部長\n10786\t35474\t邱委員好 部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心\n37194\t65127\t本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望\n66195\t82803\t那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然\n84535\t110833\t檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在這個講到這個我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要一定要這個\n113243\t123278\t抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300\n128786\t128806\t邱鎮軍\n145167\t173249\t委員剛才說的都是重點但是我也必須說台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家所以我們其實是慢了我們的確也會觀察說會不會不公平的現象例如說有些像越南因為印尼有越南東南亞有些國家其實我們台灣的碳費的量因為其實碳費如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低\n173809\t201041\t那韓國的委員看到這5.7是對的但是韓國是進行這個總量管制的碳交易他的這個一噸的碳在這個市面上超過排蛋的話大概是18塊美金500多塊台幣的所以其實這個我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況那日本其實他也有東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢也差不多是500多塊台幣所以我們台灣的這個價錢是剛剛好那其實部長您講的這些我們都知道了但我要講的是我們台灣現在的這個\n203322\t228382\t處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣呢你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%\n231370\t251511\t對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者\n253052\t277944\t當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將\n283702\t302559\t那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額\n303440\t303460\t韓國瑜議員\n333281\t346848\t對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好\n347108\t347908\t有些業者在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作\n374620\t389012\t然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者\n399921\t401542\t跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量\n423632\t443563\t那當時他們這個做比技術標幹要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去\n444623\t473059\t那剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用\n475193\t500843\t臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?已經訂了是嗎?他們自己發電自己用的那個部分要用,要課但是公民生的就可以扣掉?就是所謂企業發電他的用的電乘以他的排碳係數那個就要繳碳費,企業自己要付那臺電勒?臺電大概是1000萬噸,他自發自用的自己產生的還有輸配電產生的大概1000萬噸那個要付\n503004\t523310\t公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排\n527671\t529352\t臺電有一些是可以有彈性的\n551244\t551545\t謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言\n","txt":"主席好,我們一樣請彭部長\n邱委員好 部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心\n本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望\n那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然\n檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在這個講到這個我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要一定要這個\n抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300\n邱鎮軍\n委員剛才說的都是重點但是我也必須說台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家所以我們其實是慢了我們的確也會觀察說會不會不公平的現象例如說有些像越南因為印尼有越南東南亞有些國家其實我們台灣的碳費的量因為其實碳費如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低\n那韓國的委員看到這5.7是對的但是韓國是進行這個總量管制的碳交易他的這個一噸的碳在這個市面上超過排蛋的話大概是18塊美金500多塊台幣的所以其實這個我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況那日本其實他也有東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢也差不多是500多塊台幣所以我們台灣的這個價錢是剛剛好那其實部長您講的這些我們都知道了但我要講的是我們台灣現在的這個\n處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣呢你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%\n對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者\n當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將\n那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額\n韓國瑜議員\n對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好\n有些業者在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作\n然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者\n跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量\n那當時他們這個做比技術標幹要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去\n那剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用\n臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?已經訂了是嗎?他們自己發電自己用的那個部分要用,要課但是公民生的就可以扣掉?就是所謂企業發電他的用的電乘以他的排碳係數那個就要繳碳費,企業自己要付那臺電勒?臺電大概是1000萬噸,他自發自用的自己產生的還有輸配電產生的大概1000萬噸那個要付\n公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排\n臺電有一些是可以有彈性的\n謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.905 --> 00:06.651\n主席好,我們一樣請彭部長\n\n00:10.786 --> 00:35.474\n邱委員好部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心\n\n00:37.194 --> 01:05.127\n本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望\n\n01:06.195 --> 01:22.803\n那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然\n\n01:24.535 --> 01:50.833\n檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在這個講到這個我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要一定要這個\n\n01:53.243 --> 02:03.278\n抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300\n\n02:08.786 --> 02:08.806\n邱鎮軍\n\n02:25.167 --> 02:53.249\n委員剛才說的都是重點但是我也必須說台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家所以我們其實是慢了我們的確也會觀察說會不會不公平的現象例如說有些像越南因為印尼有越南東南亞有些國家其實我們台灣的碳費的量因為其實碳費如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低\n\n02:53.809 --> 03:21.041\n那韓國的委員看到這5.7是對的但是韓國是進行這個總量管制的碳交易他的這個一噸的碳在這個市面上超過排蛋的話大概是18塊美金500多塊台幣的所以其實這個我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況那日本其實他也有東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢也差不多是500多塊台幣所以我們台灣的這個價錢是剛剛好那其實部長您講的這些我們都知道了但我要講的是我們台灣現在的這個\n\n03:23.322 --> 03:48.382\n處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣呢你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%\n\n03:51.370 --> 04:11.511\n對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者\n\n04:13.052 --> 04:37.944\n當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將\n\n04:43.702 --> 05:02.559\n那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額\n\n05:03.440 --> 05:03.460\n韓國瑜議員\n\n05:33.281 --> 05:46.848\n對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好\n\n05:47.108 --> 05:47.908\n有些業者在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作\n\n06:14.620 --> 06:29.012\n然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者\n\n06:39.921 --> 06:41.542\n跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量\n\n07:03.632 --> 07:23.563\n那當時他們這個做比技術標幹要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去\n\n07:24.623 --> 07:53.059\n那剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用\n\n07:55.193 --> 08:20.843\n臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?已經訂了是嗎?他們自己發電自己用的那個部分要用,要課但是公民生的就可以扣掉?就是所謂企業發電他的用的電乘以他的排碳係數那個就要繳碳費,企業自己要付那臺電勒?臺電大概是1000萬噸,他自發自用的自己產生的還有輸配電產生的大概1000萬噸那個要付\n\n08:23.004 --> 08:43.310\n公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排\n\n08:47.671 --> 08:49.352\n臺電有一些是可以有彈性的\n\n09:11.244 --> 09:11.545\n謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.905,"end":6.651,"text":"主席好,我們一樣請彭部長"},{"start":10.786,"end":35.474,"text":"邱委員好 部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心"},{"start":37.194,"end":65.127,"text":"本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望"},{"start":66.195,"end":82.803,"text":"那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然"},{"start":84.535,"end":110.833,"text":"檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在這個講到這個我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要一定要這個"},{"start":113.243,"end":123.278,"text":"抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300"},{"start":128.786,"end":128.806,"text":"邱鎮軍"},{"start":145.167,"end":173.249,"text":"委員剛才說的都是重點但是我也必須說台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家所以我們其實是慢了我們的確也會觀察說會不會不公平的現象例如說有些像越南因為印尼有越南東南亞有些國家其實我們台灣的碳費的量因為其實碳費如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低"},{"start":173.809,"end":201.041,"text":"那韓國的委員看到這5.7是對的但是韓國是進行這個總量管制的碳交易他的這個一噸的碳在這個市面上超過排蛋的話大概是18塊美金500多塊台幣的所以其實這個我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況那日本其實他也有東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢也差不多是500多塊台幣所以我們台灣的這個價錢是剛剛好那其實部長您講的這些我們都知道了但我要講的是我們台灣現在的這個"},{"start":203.322,"end":228.382,"text":"處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣呢你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%"},{"start":231.37,"end":251.511,"text":"對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者"},{"start":253.052,"end":277.944,"text":"當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將"},{"start":283.702,"end":302.559,"text":"那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額"},{"start":303.44,"end":303.46,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":333.281,"end":346.848,"text":"對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好"},{"start":347.108,"end":347.908,"text":"有些業者在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作"},{"start":374.62,"end":389.012,"text":"然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者"},{"start":399.921,"end":401.542,"text":"跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量"},{"start":423.632,"end":443.563,"text":"那當時他們這個做比技術標幹要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去"},{"start":444.623,"end":473.059,"text":"那剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用"},{"start":475.193,"end":500.843,"text":"臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?已經訂了是嗎?他們自己發電自己用的那個部分要用,要課但是公民生的就可以扣掉?就是所謂企業發電他的用的電乘以他的排碳係數那個就要繳碳費,企業自己要付那臺電勒?臺電大概是1000萬噸,他自發自用的自己產生的還有輸配電產生的大概1000萬噸那個要付"},{"start":503.004,"end":523.31,"text":"公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排"},{"start":527.671,"end":529.352,"text":"臺電有一些是可以有彈性的"},{"start":551.244,"end":551.545,"text":"謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:57:13 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10:06:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155408,"gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時57分）主席好，我們一樣請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。首先要謝謝環境部和經濟部到最後有聽進各界的聲音，比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率，但是我覺得，開徵碳費還是對我們的產業造成了非常重大的變數，所以各國都非常小心。本席昨天仔細看了環境部提供的報告，目前全世界只有75個國家實施、制定碳定價的制度，整個比例只占全球24%，不到四分之一，其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家，大部分的國家都還在觀望。本席在想，會不會人家一講，我們就很努力地往前衝，結果衝到前面，一回頭，竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走。你懂我的意思嗎？部長。我只希望我們在做事情的時候一定要……","當然，減碳是必要的，但是我們也要顧及產業生存的基本權益，不要自己國家在搞。我們的目的是在減少碳排，不要搞成好像是在收碳費，不是為了錢，是為了減碳，這個最終目的請部長一定要抓緊，一定要站穩這個立基點，就是不要為了收費而收費啦，應該這樣講才對。","我看到韓國實質收費每公噸只有5.7元臺幣，但我國的一般費率高達300，優惠方案B也要100，當然，優惠方案A是50元，兩年調整一次，未來我看到的是上看上千元。重點是這些優惠條件，我們的業者到底有沒有辦法做到？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實委員剛剛說的都是重點，但是我也必須說，臺灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家，所以我們其實是慢了。我們的確也會觀察會不會有不公平的現象，例如說像越南等東南亞有些國家的狀況（印尼有了），臺灣碳定價的話，還要看化石燃料稅，其實我們臺灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來得低。韓國部分委員看到這個5.7是對的，但是韓國是進行總量管制的碳交易，它在市面上超過排碳的話，一噸的碳大概是18塊美金（五百多塊臺幣），所以其實我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況，日本東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢，也差不多是五百多塊臺幣，所以我們臺灣的這個價錢是剛剛好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道部長你講的，這些我們都知道，但我要講的是我們臺灣現在的處境比較尷尬，在很多國際的組織裡面我們都是被排除的，他們是享有零關稅的待遇，但是我們臺灣呢？你看，兩岸的……APEC今年對臺取消了146項產品的優惠關稅，對我們的產業來講其實壓力是非常大的；另外，三年的電費連漲42%，對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境；如果再加上開徵碳費，恐怕會成為壓垮我們基本傳統產業，如石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草。","我剛才也看到您的報告裡面有提到高碳洩漏的業者，當然我也收到陳情，希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費核配。本席認為，這些國內、國外因素都應該列入碳費制定的參考，我也看到環境部說，明年中應該也要比照歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的行業別，請問部長，你同不同意將高碳洩漏的行業別百分之百來納入研議呢？"],["彭部長啓明：請次長正式來回應。"],["施次長文真：委員好。我想我們在徵收的辦法裡面有提到，如果是高碳洩漏的產業，它的徵收排放量其實是可以打到兩折，那它的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額。我再跟委員報告，比如以歐盟來講，它的製造業是有免費配額，但是它的發電業是百分之百要到市場上去買排放量的。因為我們的制度是範疇一跟範疇二全部都要繳碳費，所以這樣換算下來，我們的排放量調整，讓它範疇一加範疇二的排放量可以打兩折，其實這個概念已經很接近歐盟給製造業的免費配額。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到歐盟他們有把這些都列入，還有日、韓對這些好像也都已經做了一個非常完整的規範，希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的標準，好不好？"],["施次長文真：是，有納入。"],["彭部長啓明：我也跟委員報告，其實歐盟或是日本、韓國的制度是走到總量管制的碳交易，這個對我們政府部門未來是比較好的一個作法，而不是像我們一個一個訂，對某一個產業這樣訂的話，其實這個標準是無法齊一的，所以其實我們未來真的也會走向總量管制的碳交易。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，有些業者其實在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作，投入大量經費推動自願減量的工作計畫，到後面減碳的成本越來越大，但現在基準年我們卻定在2018到2022年，我們現在是這樣訂，讓業者很難達到這個條件，造成不公平，因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的業者，我覺得政府應該要給他們多一點保護，因為他們先做了，他們是響應政府的政策才做了，這部分是不是能夠考量進去，當作是給他們一個獎勵，這樣可以嗎？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，在2005年之後，有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做自願減量，當時他們做比技術標竿要好的減量成效，我們有發給它一個類似減量憑證，其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許它使用，以某一個比例來抵它的徵收排放量，所以這是有納入……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！標準還沒出來嘛？"],["施次長文真：有，已經出來了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去。"],["施次長文真：有，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛有講到我們臺灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的目標，最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始？"],["彭部長啓明：最有效減量方法還是節能，節省各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善，那個是最大宗，所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛次長也提到，歐盟的電力供應者是要繳碳費的，我們臺灣是不用，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：要，大概是占1,000萬噸左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：台電要嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：台電要，1,000萬噸左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：台電也要繳，已經訂了是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：他們自己發電供自己用的那個部分要繳，但是1億噸的部分不用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是供民生的就可以扣掉？"],["彭部長啓明：就是所謂企業發電，它用的電乘以它的排碳係數，那個就要繳碳費，企業自己要付。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那台電呢？"],["彭部長啓明：台電大概是1,000萬噸，它自發自用的、自己產生的，還有輸配電產生的那個部分大概1,000萬噸，那個要付。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是供給民生的那個就可以不用？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上那個是它自己用的，那個其實占它所有的營收比例的……因為台電的減碳績效很好，我們有算過，它要繳的大概是5億左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們知道啦！其實電力供應在我們臺灣大概有24廠，在五百大碳排量中占了45%以上，這個比例是非常高的，為了要能夠有效的減碳，我覺得這部分應該也要好好的來斟酌一下，這樣對其他的業者才比較公平，當然，如果是涉及到民生的，我當然也贊成，因為它是配合政府一些政策，尤其是台電，它有一些是可以有彈性的，至於其他業者如果不是針對這個部分的話，我覺得我們必須要公平對待，這樣可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言。","接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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