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00:00:39,025\n那我們先談這個碳費的時候,我們先看一下世界的趨勢。因為我在大運的時候有講過,很奇怪就是我們的WorldBank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金。那我們是10月7號才宣布的,也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:39,625 --> 00:00:54,495\n沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了這是人家建議的啦那我們才是委員委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定OK\n\n4\n00:00:54,955 --> 00:01:09,326\n我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊我們是在9塊那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個是你之前有先去做盤查嗎還是做調查還是做怎麼樣的一個結論會有300塊的這個這樣那個定價\n\n5\n00:01:12,508 --> 00:01:30,570\n這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPIGDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢\n\n6\n00:01:31,170 --> 00:01:45,520\n每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆這是怎麼訂來的?\n\n7\n00:01:47,729 --> 00:02:05,525\n20兆是看時機的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式\n\n8\n00:02:06,005 --> 00:02:20,667\n對我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那也到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底\n\n9\n00:02:21,869 --> 00:02:45,690\n如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳\n\n10\n00:02:45,970 --> 00:03:03,802\n如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要\n\n11\n00:03:04,482 --> 00:03:04,502\n盧縣一\n\n12\n00:03:26,952 --> 00:03:52,663\n如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室淇淋管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分\n\n13\n00:03:53,183 --> 00:04:05,351\n那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道的是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界\n\n14\n00:04:07,845 --> 00:04:20,553\n報告委員其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話它的費率是很低的而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值對K值再乘以那K值是2.5萬噸對所以你的第16頁是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎對對對OK\n\n15\n00:04:29,588 --> 00:04:56,303\n那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?\n\n16\n00:04:57,274 --> 00:05:15,950\n減碳跟減碳有關係的或是跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面不是給地方是給中央的去統籌規劃應該是這個樣子但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的所以這個未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到\n\n17\n00:05:20,834 --> 00:05:21,234\n所以這個難易度\n\n18\n00:05:45,552 --> 00:06:03,901\n有差別,但是委員可以看一下那個我們很多前20大排碳大戶的這個ESG報告,其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的,但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了,所以這個部分我們會跟這個經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業\n\n19\n00:06:07,142 --> 00:06:07,903\n大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費\n\n20\n00:06:22,642 --> 00:06:28,184\n歐洲的負稅就很高,他們收入也很高,例如說我所知道的瑞典,他們是137塊美元\n\n21\n00:06:42,668 --> 00:07:00,296\n那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛\n\n22\n00:07:00,956 --> 00:07:21,475\n所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出\n\n23\n00:07:22,666 --> 00:07:38,571\n包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出\n\n24\n00:07:39,191 --> 00:08:04,471\n目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?其實委員報委員那個真的很辛苦這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊就是你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長\n\n25\n00:08:08,022 --> 00:08:08,463\n謝謝盧縣一委員的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8202\t15080\t主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早\n15939\t39025\t那我們先談這個碳費的時候,我們先看一下世界的趨勢。因為我在大運的時候有講過,很奇怪就是我們的World Bank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金。那我們是10月7號才宣布的,也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?\n39625\t54495\t沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了這是人家建議的啦那我們才是委員委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定OK\n54955\t69326\t我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊我們是在9塊那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個是你之前有先去做盤查嗎還是做調查還是做怎麼樣的一個結論會有300塊的這個這樣那個定價\n72508\t90570\t這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPI GDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢\n91170\t105520\t每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會 這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆這是怎麼訂來的?\n107729\t125525\t20兆是看時機的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式\n126005\t140667\t對 我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那也到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底\n141869\t165690\t如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳\n165970\t183802\t如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要\n184482\t184502\t盧縣一\n206952\t232663\t如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室淇淋管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分\n233183\t245351\t那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道的是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界\n247845\t260553\t報告委員其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話它的費率是很低的而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值對 K值再乘以那K值是2.5萬噸對所以你的第16頁是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎對對對OK\n269588\t296303\t那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?\n297274\t315950\t減碳跟減碳有關係的或是跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面不是給地方是給中央的去統籌規劃應該是這個樣子但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的所以這個未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到\n320834\t321234\t所以這個難易度\n345552\t363901\t有差別,但是委員可以看一下那個我們很多前20大排碳大戶的這個ESG報告,其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的,但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了,所以這個部分我們會跟這個經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業\n367142\t367903\t大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費\n382642\t388184\t歐洲的負稅就很高,他們收入也很高,例如說我所知道的瑞典,他們是137塊美元\n402668\t420296\t那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛\n420956\t441475\t所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出\n442666\t458571\t包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出\n459191\t484471\t目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?其實委員報委員那個真的很辛苦這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊就是你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長\n488022\t488463\t謝謝盧縣一委員的發言\n","txt":"主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早\n那我們先談這個碳費的時候,我們先看一下世界的趨勢。因為我在大運的時候有講過,很奇怪就是我們的World Bank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金。那我們是10月7號才宣布的,也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?\n沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了這是人家建議的啦那我們才是委員委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定OK\n我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊我們是在9塊那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個是你之前有先去做盤查嗎還是做調查還是做怎麼樣的一個結論會有300塊的這個這樣那個定價\n這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPI GDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢\n每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會 這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆這是怎麼訂來的?\n20兆是看時機的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式\n對 我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那也到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底\n如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳\n如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要\n盧縣一\n如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室淇淋管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分\n那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道的是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界\n報告委員其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話它的費率是很低的而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值對 K值再乘以那K值是2.5萬噸對所以你的第16頁是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎對對對OK\n那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?\n減碳跟減碳有關係的或是跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面不是給地方是給中央的去統籌規劃應該是這個樣子但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的所以這個未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到\n所以這個難易度\n有差別,但是委員可以看一下那個我們很多前20大排碳大戶的這個ESG報告,其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的,但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了,所以這個部分我們會跟這個經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業\n大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費\n歐洲的負稅就很高,他們收入也很高,例如說我所知道的瑞典,他們是137塊美元\n那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛\n所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出\n包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出\n目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?其實委員報委員那個真的很辛苦這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊就是你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長\n謝謝盧縣一委員的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.202 --> 00:15.080\n主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早\n\n00:15.939 --> 00:39.025\n那我們先談這個碳費的時候,我們先看一下世界的趨勢。因為我在大運的時候有講過,很奇怪就是我們的WorldBank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金。那我們是10月7號才宣布的,也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?\n\n00:39.625 --> 00:54.495\n沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了這是人家建議的啦那我們才是委員委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定OK\n\n00:54.955 --> 01:09.326\n我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊我們是在9塊那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個是你之前有先去做盤查嗎還是做調查還是做怎麼樣的一個結論會有300塊的這個這樣那個定價\n\n01:12.508 --> 01:30.570\n這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPIGDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢\n\n01:31.170 --> 01:45.520\n每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆這是怎麼訂來的?\n\n01:47.729 --> 02:05.525\n20兆是看時機的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式\n\n02:06.005 --> 02:20.667\n對我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那也到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底\n\n02:21.869 --> 02:45.690\n如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳\n\n02:45.970 --> 03:03.802\n如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要\n\n03:04.482 --> 03:04.502\n盧縣一\n\n03:26.952 --> 03:52.663\n如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室淇淋管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分\n\n03:53.183 --> 04:05.351\n那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道的是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界\n\n04:07.845 --> 04:20.553\n報告委員其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話它的費率是很低的而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值對K值再乘以那K值是2.5萬噸對所以你的第16頁是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎對對對OK\n\n04:29.588 --> 04:56.303\n那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?\n\n04:57.274 --> 05:15.950\n減碳跟減碳有關係的或是跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面不是給地方是給中央的去統籌規劃應該是這個樣子但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的所以這個未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到\n\n05:20.834 --> 05:21.234\n所以這個難易度\n\n05:45.552 --> 06:03.901\n有差別,但是委員可以看一下那個我們很多前20大排碳大戶的這個ESG報告,其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的,但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了,所以這個部分我們會跟這個經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業\n\n06:07.142 --> 06:07.903\n大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費\n\n06:22.642 --> 06:28.184\n歐洲的負稅就很高,他們收入也很高,例如說我所知道的瑞典,他們是137塊美元\n\n06:42.668 --> 07:00.296\n那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛\n\n07:00.956 --> 07:21.475\n所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出\n\n07:22.666 --> 07:38.571\n包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出\n\n07:39.191 --> 08:04.471\n目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?其實委員報委員那個真的很辛苦這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊就是你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長\n\n08:08.022 --> 08:08.463\n謝謝盧縣一委員的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.202,"end":15.08,"text":"主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早"},{"start":15.939,"end":39.025,"text":"那我們先談這個碳費的時候,我們先看一下世界的趨勢。因為我在大運的時候有講過,很奇怪就是我們的World Bank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金。那我們是10月7號才宣布的,也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?"},{"start":39.625,"end":54.495,"text":"沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了這是人家建議的啦那我們才是委員委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定OK"},{"start":54.955,"end":69.326,"text":"我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊我們是在9塊那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個是你之前有先去做盤查嗎還是做調查還是做怎麼樣的一個結論會有300塊的這個這樣那個定價"},{"start":72.508,"end":90.57,"text":"這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPI GDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢"},{"start":91.17,"end":105.52,"text":"每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會 這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆這是怎麼訂來的?"},{"start":107.729,"end":125.525,"text":"20兆是看時機的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式"},{"start":126.005,"end":140.667,"text":"對 我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那也到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底"},{"start":141.869,"end":165.69,"text":"如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳"},{"start":165.97,"end":183.802,"text":"如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要"},{"start":184.482,"end":184.502,"text":"盧縣一"},{"start":206.952,"end":232.663,"text":"如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室淇淋管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分"},{"start":233.183,"end":245.351,"text":"那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道的是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界"},{"start":247.845,"end":260.553,"text":"報告委員其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話它的費率是很低的而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值對 K值再乘以那K值是2.5萬噸對所以你的第16頁是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎對對對OK"},{"start":269.588,"end":296.303,"text":"那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?"},{"start":297.274,"end":315.95,"text":"減碳跟減碳有關係的或是跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面不是給地方是給中央的去統籌規劃應該是這個樣子但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的所以這個未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到"},{"start":320.834,"end":321.234,"text":"所以這個難易度"},{"start":345.552,"end":363.901,"text":"有差別,但是委員可以看一下那個我們很多前20大排碳大戶的這個ESG報告,其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的,但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了,所以這個部分我們會跟這個經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業"},{"start":367.142,"end":367.903,"text":"大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費"},{"start":382.642,"end":388.184,"text":"歐洲的負稅就很高,他們收入也很高,例如說我所知道的瑞典,他們是137塊美元"},{"start":402.668,"end":420.296,"text":"那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛"},{"start":420.956,"end":441.475,"text":"所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出"},{"start":442.666,"end":458.571,"text":"包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出"},{"start":459.191,"end":484.471,"text":"目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?其實委員報委員那個真的很辛苦這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊就是你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長"},{"start":488.022,"end":488.463,"text":"謝謝盧縣一委員的發言"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:16:19 - 10:24:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155411,"gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時16分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：盧委員早。"],["盧委員縣一：彭部長早。在談碳費之前，我們先看一下世界的趨勢。因為我在大院的時候有講過，很奇怪，World Bank在5月29日就已經預告我們碳費的價值大概是在9塊美金，我們是10月7日才宣布的，也就是說，這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：這個期刊是5月29日的期刊，為什麼它就已經知道我們是9塊美金了？"],["彭部長啓明：這是人家建議的，我們還是審議委員會的委員共同做的決定。"],["盧委員縣一：我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭的167塊，我們是在9塊，大陸的話，北京是在15塊。我們訂這個300塊之前，你有先去做盤查、調查，還是做怎麼樣的一個結論，才會有300塊這樣一個定價？"],["彭部長啓明：這是我們的碳費審議委員會跟各方面討論出來的結果，因為他們有考慮到我們對於CPI、GDP的衝擊，當然，我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都……"],["盧委員縣一：可是2030年你說要達1,200到1,600的水準。"],["彭部長啓明：是建議，他們是建議。"],["盧委員縣一：那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢？"],["彭部長啓明：每兩年會調整一次。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，所以50塊跟100塊的優惠也會逐年調整？"],["彭部長啓明：會，這個要經過審議委員會共同來討論，還要看實際上的執行狀況。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛聽你說你去了日本，知道他們要發行債券20兆，你認為它那20兆是怎麼訂來的？"],["彭部長啓明：20兆是看實際的需求，例如說，他們是三個部會一起來合作……"],["盧委員縣一：我們臺灣是不是也要做這樣的規劃？不然你說60億太少了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，其實減碳真的是……"],["盧委員縣一：你聽到這樣一個說法，我們臺灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們的確在520之後就動起來，但是我必須跟委員說，這是一筆很大的預算，到時候也希望委員多多支持。"],["盧委員縣一：我比較想知道的是，臺灣的森林有210萬公頃，這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底？"],["彭部長啓明：如果有一些既定的、已經開發的、已經既成在那個地方的是沒有辦法算，但是過去如果是有些空地或是沒有辦法好好維持……"],["盧委員縣一：所以我們210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底？"],["彭部長啓明：某一部分是，但是這個到底量是多少，我還要再調查，因為目前是由農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會來負責自然碳匯的。"],["盧委員縣一：好，如果這個210萬公頃是大家的資產，是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情，全世界都是一樣，特別是這種所謂的公正轉型，例如說很多原住民的朋友，這個都必須考慮進去。"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思就是要拉到這一點，是不是有可能我們的禁伐補償會從所謂的綠色存底來做一個結合，或者是去考量一個方法，看能不能把禁伐補償也當作是一個綠色存底，當作是基金的一個規模，然後以後如果在運用金額上面，是不是也可以援助原民會這邊的經費籌措？"],["彭部長啓明：如果未來是針對跟減碳有實質上相關的，我相信我們溫室氣體管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們原住民畢竟都住在山裡，每天看到的都是樹木，可是它的價值到底在哪裡？現在又被國家認定在院長所說的4萬塊，但是我們還是要想辦法讓森林有價值，所以才會想到綠色存底的部分。我知道台電及中油要負擔大概15億到19億，我們最大的產業也就是這個，我想要知道的是，產業界還是認為300塊太高，你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話，它的費率是很低的，而且還有很多的折扣。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛看了，你是減掉所謂的K值嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：再乘以……那K值是2.5萬噸嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你書面報告的第16頁所寫的是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。你說一年的收入大概是60億，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛有去算了一下，如果是60億的話，就像剛剛蘇委員講的，你有去盤點這個產業是在哪裡，以後要怎麼分配嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：你說基金的使用嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：對。"],["彭部長啓明：目前還沒有，我們現在要等溫管基金，因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立，我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題，因為後年才有錢。"],["盧委員縣一：那專款專用的意思是用在……"],["彭部長啓明：跟減碳有關係或者跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面。"],["盧委員縣一：所以不是給地方，是給中央去統籌規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：應該是這個樣子，但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的，所以未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到？"],["彭部長啓明：如何來達到？"],["盧委員縣一：對，比如它本來是要交300塊，它怎麼樣來使用50塊這個費率？它要怎麼努力？"],["彭部長啓明：以50塊來講，它基本上要符合國際最嚴苛的標準，也就是說，它減碳的企圖心……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是，是不是很難達成的意思？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我們臺灣有些企業是可以挑戰這個50塊的，但是大多數的企業可能是走100塊的模式。"],["盧委員縣一：是，所以這個難易度……"],["彭部長啓明：有差別，但是委員其實可以看一下我們前20大排碳大戶的ESG報告，其實他們寫的都很清楚，他們的企圖心是很旺盛的，所以有些企業是沒有問題的，但是我也坦承，有些企業、傳統產業本身經營就比較辛苦了，所以這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來討論如何幫忙企業，但是這個還是屬於經濟部要幫忙的層次，我們環境部一定會積極地配合、幫忙業界，因為有些企業受到地緣政治的影響，基本上近期經營都有點困難。"],["盧委員縣一：大家比較緊張的就是個人到底要不要繳碳費？"],["彭部長啓明：個人不用。"],["盧委員縣一：對，可是在先進國家每一個人願意負擔的碳價值是多少，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：每個國家不一樣。"],["盧委員縣一：大概average是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，因為歐洲的賦稅很高，他們的收入也很高，例如我所知道的瑞典，他們是137塊美元，涵蓋了大概六成左右。"],["盧委員縣一：就我看的期刊，以每一個人願意負擔的價值來說，如果他認為森林很有價值，願意保存這樣一個大森林，他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金，也就是說，我們如果2,300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話，這就是我們的一個底嘛！所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好，認為每一個人都要付出這樣的價值來承擔減碳的活動，或者是實踐我們遠大的夢想，是不是你也要開始著手去計畫這個4塊錢美金要怎麼讓大家願意付出？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這次要收這281家，我們就快要去掉半條命了，如果要跟每個人收，我相信這個很困難。"],["盧委員縣一：可是你們2050年要達到零排放，你一定要適當、長遠地規劃我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的付出。"],["彭部長啓明：目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，這個算是一個夢想，是不是也要開始有這樣的想法讓國人知道？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個真的很辛苦，跟每個人收個4塊美金，這個是很辛苦，發4塊美金比較快樂、比較容易。"],["盧委員縣一：當然是啊，可以要作為一個零排放的國家，一定要做出相當的努力，所以這個方向也要考慮，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我研究一下，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的發言。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}