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00:00:55,357\n明年的預算有177億韓基金然後去年的話應該是170就今年的話173左右我們少了一點多億少了一點多億?那112呢?112就是112應該也是173億左右是這樣嗎?因為我只看這兩年我印象這兩年處理這兩年我知道那我問三年嘛我們不兩個可以提供嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:57,679 --> 00:01:12,704\n你們通通不知道你們死定了部長剛來他沒有辦法去注意到112那或許要講個過去那你們都在這邊待這麼久還不曉得那11是多少110又是多少環保署變成環境部之後預算不增還錢你們交代的過去嗎那為什麼要把環保署變成環境部理由何在\n\n4\n00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:39,410\n理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代\n\n5\n00:01:42,366 --> 00:02:10,016\n部長請簡單回答報告委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的\n\n6\n00:02:10,336 --> 00:02:26,728\n因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加\n\n7\n00:02:29,144 --> 00:02:53,753\n我應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不爭還檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的署去徵檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。\n\n8\n00:02:54,810 --> 00:03:17,131\n我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部\n\n9\n00:03:18,032 --> 00:03:45,550\n的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦\n\n10\n00:03:48,072 --> 00:04:05,228\n第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供又匯率有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,\n\n11\n00:04:05,788 --> 00:04:22,314\n那如果依照300元來計算臺電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額那臺電還中油都表示再可負擔的範圍我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話\n\n12\n00:04:23,815 --> 00:04:48,804\n那同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低這樣的說法部長應該沒有錯吧?沒錯沒錯但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳會不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對沒錯但是在昨天\n\n13\n00:04:49,824 --> 00:05:08,969\n您們要抱起尾聲看這個東西齁這攤會恐令翁部長業者優利受通本他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法嘛他認為多項項目啦齁這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於由於\n\n14\n00:05:09,469 --> 00:05:11,431\n昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上\n\n15\n00:05:36,843 --> 00:05:55,849\n就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦包委員其實第一個大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬\n\n16\n00:05:56,369 --> 00:06:20,045\n也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的\n\n17\n00:06:20,385 --> 00:06:21,566\n不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒\n\n18\n00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:59,837\n地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了但是部長你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案\n\n19\n00:07:00,953 --> 00:07:08,639\n到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?\n\n20\n00:07:15,980 --> 00:07:44,867\n我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以吧一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以委員再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦\n\n21\n00:07:45,627 --> 00:07:59,119\n都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧\n\n22\n00:08:04,104 --> 00:08:08,607\n第二件事情,匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的,我這邊具體要求,是不是可以從雲林開始?\n\n23\n00:08:19,772 --> 00:08:42,506\n好謝謝謝謝部長再來你看齁部長你也講了吼碳水路邊越快上路越好那過去齁過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼他也是淵娟路邊的他希望越快上路越好但是初期可能大家都會朝這方向這目的目標去做他減量他也會一直持續做\n\n24\n00:08:43,266 --> 00:09:01,820\n但他如果把他當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的換點裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副\n\n25\n00:09:02,811 --> 00:09:23,882\n還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費\n\n26\n00:09:26,924 --> 00:09:36,206\n其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦\n\n27\n00:09:52,290 --> 00:10:05,138\n因為你看你一直在跟我講那種政會公關的政會啊,你的醫生一直在用劍啊,所以你不可以有樣的說你不可以去那種政會啊,你不可以去政會你就去用劍啊,你就要去上班洗澡啊,不然你是要跟我說你裡面有碳費好收,所以你就有錢好用。\n\n28\n00:10:06,972 --> 00:10:30,864\n所謂這樣說吧對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦\n\n29\n00:10:32,265 --> 00:10:59,432\n碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長欸1200塊\n\n30\n00:11:02,514 --> 00:11:25,275\n是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好\n\n31\n00:11:26,616 --> 00:11:47,007\n所以如果按照這個一千兩百塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嘛對不對對阿他如果有充分的時間他也把他計算在他的成本裡面阿就不太簡單去處理了\n\n32\n00:11:48,347 --> 00:12:11,206\n現在就是說如果一千二的話我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好但是你在三期六年時間成長到百分之四百你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎\n\n33\n00:12:12,287 --> 00:12:21,297\n我不是說另外一套的制度總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500\n\n34\n00:12:23,127 --> 00:12:47,480\n但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來\n\n35\n00:12:49,840 --> 00:13:03,323\n我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係。主席再給我一分鐘就好。金華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?\n\n36\n00:13:10,342 --> 00:13:30,929\n那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?\n\n37\n00:13:33,252 --> 00:13:33,492\n執行進度已經到96.5了\n\n38\n00:13:56,647 --> 00:13:56,767\n主席\n\n39\n00:14:13,939 --> 00:14:31,014\n那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?\n\n40\n00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:31,940\n劉建國\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t27528\t委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長劉委員,早部長早,部長你可以大概跟委員會做一個報告114年度的環境部的總預算案含基金,然後就全部,大約是多少然後113年又是多少,112年又是多少,3年就好\n29268\t55357\t明年的預算有177億韓基金然後去年的話應該是170就今年的話173左右我們少了一點多億少了一點多億?那112呢?112就是112應該也是173億左右是這樣嗎?因為我只看這兩年我印象這兩年處理這兩年我知道那我問三年嘛我們不兩個可以提供嗎?\n57679\t72704\t你們通通不知道你們死定了部長剛來他沒有辦法去注意到112那或許要講個過去那你們都在這邊待這麼久還不曉得那11是多少110又是多少環保署變成環境部之後預算不增還錢你們交代的過去嗎那為什麼要把環保署變成環境部理由何在\n88840\t99410\t理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代\n102366\t130016\t部長請簡單回答報告委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的\n130336\t146728\t因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加\n149144\t173753\t我應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不爭還檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的署去徵檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。\n174810\t197131\t我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部\n198032\t225550\t的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦\n228072\t245228\t第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供又匯率有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,\n245788\t262314\t那如果依照300元來計算臺電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額那臺電還中油都表示再可負擔的範圍我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話\n263815\t288804\t那同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低這樣的說法部長應該沒有錯吧?沒錯沒錯但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳會不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對沒錯但是在昨天\n289824\t308969\t您們要抱起尾聲看這個東西齁這攤會恐令翁部長業者優利受通本他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法嘛他認為多項項目啦齁這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於由於\n309469\t311431\t昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上\n336843\t355849\t就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦包委員其實第一個大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬\n356369\t380045\t也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的\n380385\t381566\t不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒\n400240\t419837\t地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了但是部長你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案\n420953\t428639\t到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?\n435980\t464867\t我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以吧一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以委員再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦\n465627\t479119\t都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧\n484104\t488607\t第二件事情,匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的,我這邊具體要求,是不是可以從雲林開始?\n499772\t522506\t好 謝謝謝謝部長再來 你看齁 部長你也講了吼 碳水路邊越快上路越好那過去齁 過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼 他也是淵娟路邊的他希望越快上路越好 但是初期可能大家都會朝這方向 這目的目標去做 他減量他也會一直持續做\n523266\t541820\t但他如果把他當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的換點裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副\n542811\t563882\t還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費\n566924\t576206\t其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦\n592290\t605138\t因為你看你一直在跟我講那種政會公關的政會啊,你的醫生一直在用劍啊,所以你不可以有樣的說你不可以去那種政會啊,你不可以去政會你就去用劍啊,你就要去上班洗澡啊,不然你是要跟我說你裡面有碳費好收,所以你就有錢好用。\n606972\t630864\t所謂這樣說吧對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦\n632265\t659432\t碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長欸1200塊\n662514\t685275\t是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好\n686616\t707007\t所以如果按照這個一千兩百塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嘛對不對對阿他如果有充分的時間他也把他計算在他的成本裡面阿就不太簡單去處理了\n708347\t731206\t現在就是說如果一千二的話我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好但是你在三期六年時間成長到百分之四百你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎\n732287\t741297\t我不是說另外一套的制度總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500\n743127\t767480\t但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來\n769840\t783323\t我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係。主席再給我一分鐘就好。金華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?\n790342\t810929\t那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?\n813252\t813492\t執行進度已經到96.5了\n836647\t836767\t主席\n853939\t871014\t那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?\n871920\t871940\t劉建國\n","txt":"委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長劉委員,早部長早,部長你可以大概跟委員會做一個報告114年度的環境部的總預算案含基金,然後就全部,大約是多少然後113年又是多少,112年又是多少,3年就好\n明年的預算有177億韓基金然後去年的話應該是170就今年的話173左右我們少了一點多億少了一點多億?那112呢?112就是112應該也是173億左右是這樣嗎?因為我只看這兩年我印象這兩年處理這兩年我知道那我問三年嘛我們不兩個可以提供嗎?\n你們通通不知道你們死定了部長剛來他沒有辦法去注意到112那或許要講個過去那你們都在這邊待這麼久還不曉得那11是多少110又是多少環保署變成環境部之後預算不增還錢你們交代的過去嗎那為什麼要把環保署變成環境部理由何在\n理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代\n部長請簡單回答報告委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的\n因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加\n我應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不爭還檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的署去徵檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。\n我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部\n的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦\n第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供又匯率有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,\n那如果依照300元來計算臺電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額那臺電還中油都表示再可負擔的範圍我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話\n那同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低這樣的說法部長應該沒有錯吧?沒錯沒錯但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳會不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對沒錯但是在昨天\n您們要抱起尾聲看這個東西齁這攤會恐令翁部長業者優利受通本他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法嘛他認為多項項目啦齁這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於由於\n昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上\n就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦包委員其實第一個大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬\n也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的\n不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒\n地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了但是部長你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案\n到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?\n我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以吧一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以委員再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦\n都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧\n第二件事情,匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的,我這邊具體要求,是不是可以從雲林開始?\n好 謝謝謝謝部長再來 你看齁 部長你也講了吼 碳水路邊越快上路越好那過去齁 過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼 他也是淵娟路邊的他希望越快上路越好 但是初期可能大家都會朝這方向 這目的目標去做 他減量他也會一直持續做\n但他如果把他當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的換點裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副\n還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費\n其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦\n因為你看你一直在跟我講那種政會公關的政會啊,你的醫生一直在用劍啊,所以你不可以有樣的說你不可以去那種政會啊,你不可以去政會你就去用劍啊,你就要去上班洗澡啊,不然你是要跟我說你裡面有碳費好收,所以你就有錢好用。\n所謂這樣說吧對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦\n碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長欸1200塊\n是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好\n所以如果按照這個一千兩百塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嘛對不對對阿他如果有充分的時間他也把他計算在他的成本裡面阿就不太簡單去處理了\n現在就是說如果一千二的話我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好但是你在三期六年時間成長到百分之四百你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎\n我不是說另外一套的制度總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500\n但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來\n我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係。主席再給我一分鐘就好。金華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?\n那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?\n執行進度已經到96.5了\n主席\n那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?\n劉建國\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:27.528\n委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長劉委員,早部長早,部長你可以大概跟委員會做一個報告114年度的環境部的總預算案含基金,然後就全部,大約是多少然後113年又是多少,112年又是多少,3年就好\n\n00:29.268 --> 00:55.357\n明年的預算有177億韓基金然後去年的話應該是170就今年的話173左右我們少了一點多億少了一點多億?那112呢?112就是112應該也是173億左右是這樣嗎?因為我只看這兩年我印象這兩年處理這兩年我知道那我問三年嘛我們不兩個可以提供嗎?\n\n00:57.679 --> 01:12.704\n你們通通不知道你們死定了部長剛來他沒有辦法去注意到112那或許要講個過去那你們都在這邊待這麼久還不曉得那11是多少110又是多少環保署變成環境部之後預算不增還錢你們交代的過去嗎那為什麼要把環保署變成環境部理由何在\n\n01:28.840 --> 01:39.410\n理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代\n\n01:42.366 --> 02:10.016\n部長請簡單回答報告委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的\n\n02:10.336 --> 02:26.728\n因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加\n\n02:29.144 --> 02:53.753\n我應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不爭還檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的署去徵檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。\n\n02:54.810 --> 03:17.131\n我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部\n\n03:18.032 --> 03:45.550\n的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦\n\n03:48.072 --> 04:05.228\n第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供又匯率有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,\n\n04:05.788 --> 04:22.314\n那如果依照300元來計算臺電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額那臺電還中油都表示再可負擔的範圍我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話\n\n04:23.815 --> 04:48.804\n那同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低這樣的說法部長應該沒有錯吧?沒錯沒錯但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳會不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對沒錯但是在昨天\n\n04:49.824 --> 05:08.969\n您們要抱起尾聲看這個東西齁這攤會恐令翁部長業者優利受通本他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法嘛他認為多項項目啦齁這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於由於\n\n05:09.469 --> 05:11.431\n昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上\n\n05:36.843 --> 05:55.849\n就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦包委員其實第一個大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬\n\n05:56.369 --> 06:20.045\n也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的\n\n06:20.385 --> 06:21.566\n不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒\n\n06:40.240 --> 06:59.837\n地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了但是部長你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案\n\n07:00.953 --> 07:08.639\n到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?\n\n07:15.980 --> 07:44.867\n我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以吧一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以委員再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦\n\n07:45.627 --> 07:59.119\n都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧\n\n08:04.104 --> 08:08.607\n第二件事情,匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的,我這邊具體要求,是不是可以從雲林開始?\n\n08:19.772 --> 08:42.506\n好謝謝謝謝部長再來你看齁部長你也講了吼碳水路邊越快上路越好那過去齁過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼他也是淵娟路邊的他希望越快上路越好但是初期可能大家都會朝這方向這目的目標去做他減量他也會一直持續做\n\n08:43.266 --> 09:01.820\n但他如果把他當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的換點裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副\n\n09:02.811 --> 09:23.882\n還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費\n\n09:26.924 --> 09:36.206\n其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦\n\n09:52.290 --> 10:05.138\n因為你看你一直在跟我講那種政會公關的政會啊,你的醫生一直在用劍啊,所以你不可以有樣的說你不可以去那種政會啊,你不可以去政會你就去用劍啊,你就要去上班洗澡啊,不然你是要跟我說你裡面有碳費好收,所以你就有錢好用。\n\n10:06.972 --> 10:30.864\n所謂這樣說吧對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦\n\n10:32.265 --> 10:59.432\n碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長欸1200塊\n\n11:02.514 --> 11:25.275\n是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好\n\n11:26.616 --> 11:47.007\n所以如果按照這個一千兩百塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嘛對不對對阿他如果有充分的時間他也把他計算在他的成本裡面阿就不太簡單去處理了\n\n11:48.347 --> 12:11.206\n現在就是說如果一千二的話我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好但是你在三期六年時間成長到百分之四百你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎\n\n12:12.287 --> 12:21.297\n我不是說另外一套的制度總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500\n\n12:23.127 --> 12:47.480\n但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來\n\n12:49.840 --> 13:03.323\n我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係。主席再給我一分鐘就好。金華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?\n\n13:10.342 --> 13:30.929\n那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?\n\n13:33.252 --> 13:33.492\n執行進度已經到96.5了\n\n13:56.647 --> 13:56.767\n主席\n\n14:13.939 --> 14:31.014\n那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?\n\n14:31.920 --> 14:31.940\n劉建國\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":27.528,"text":"委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長劉委員,早部長早,部長你可以大概跟委員會做一個報告114年度的環境部的總預算案含基金,然後就全部,大約是多少然後113年又是多少,112年又是多少,3年就好"},{"start":29.268,"end":55.357,"text":"明年的預算有177億韓基金然後去年的話應該是170就今年的話173左右我們少了一點多億少了一點多億?那112呢?112就是112應該也是173億左右是這樣嗎?因為我只看這兩年我印象這兩年處理這兩年我知道那我問三年嘛我們不兩個可以提供嗎?"},{"start":57.679,"end":72.704,"text":"你們通通不知道你們死定了部長剛來他沒有辦法去注意到112那或許要講個過去那你們都在這邊待這麼久還不曉得那11是多少110又是多少環保署變成環境部之後預算不增還錢你們交代的過去嗎那為什麼要把環保署變成環境部理由何在"},{"start":88.84,"end":99.41,"text":"理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代"},{"start":102.366,"end":130.016,"text":"部長請簡單回答報告委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的"},{"start":130.336,"end":146.728,"text":"因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加"},{"start":149.144,"end":173.753,"text":"我應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不爭還檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的署去徵檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。"},{"start":174.81,"end":197.131,"text":"我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部"},{"start":198.032,"end":225.55,"text":"的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦"},{"start":228.072,"end":245.228,"text":"第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供又匯率有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,"},{"start":245.788,"end":262.314,"text":"那如果依照300元來計算臺電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額那臺電還中油都表示再可負擔的範圍我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話"},{"start":263.815,"end":288.804,"text":"那同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低這樣的說法部長應該沒有錯吧?沒錯沒錯但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳會不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對沒錯但是在昨天"},{"start":289.824,"end":308.969,"text":"您們要抱起尾聲看這個東西齁這攤會恐令翁部長業者優利受通本他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法嘛他認為多項項目啦齁這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於由於"},{"start":309.469,"end":311.431,"text":"昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上"},{"start":336.843,"end":355.849,"text":"就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦包委員其實第一個大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬"},{"start":356.369,"end":380.045,"text":"也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的"},{"start":380.385,"end":381.566,"text":"不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒"},{"start":400.24,"end":419.837,"text":"地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了但是部長你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案"},{"start":420.953,"end":428.639,"text":"到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?"},{"start":435.98,"end":464.867,"text":"我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以吧一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以委員再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦"},{"start":465.627,"end":479.119,"text":"都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧"},{"start":484.104,"end":488.607,"text":"第二件事情,匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的,我這邊具體要求,是不是可以從雲林開始?"},{"start":499.772,"end":522.506,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長再來 你看齁 部長你也講了吼 碳水路邊越快上路越好那過去齁 過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼 他也是淵娟路邊的他希望越快上路越好 但是初期可能大家都會朝這方向 這目的目標去做 他減量他也會一直持續做"},{"start":523.266,"end":541.82,"text":"但他如果把他當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的換點裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副"},{"start":542.811,"end":563.882,"text":"還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費"},{"start":566.924,"end":576.206,"text":"其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦"},{"start":592.29,"end":605.138,"text":"因為你看你一直在跟我講那種政會公關的政會啊,你的醫生一直在用劍啊,所以你不可以有樣的說你不可以去那種政會啊,你不可以去政會你就去用劍啊,你就要去上班洗澡啊,不然你是要跟我說你裡面有碳費好收,所以你就有錢好用。"},{"start":606.972,"end":630.864,"text":"所謂這樣說吧對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦"},{"start":632.265,"end":659.432,"text":"碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長欸1200塊"},{"start":662.514,"end":685.275,"text":"是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好"},{"start":686.616,"end":707.007,"text":"所以如果按照這個一千兩百塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嘛對不對對阿他如果有充分的時間他也把他計算在他的成本裡面阿就不太簡單去處理了"},{"start":708.347,"end":731.206,"text":"現在就是說如果一千二的話我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好但是你在三期六年時間成長到百分之四百你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎"},{"start":732.287,"end":741.297,"text":"我不是說另外一套的制度總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500"},{"start":743.127,"end":767.48,"text":"但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來"},{"start":769.84,"end":783.323,"text":"我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係。主席再給我一分鐘就好。金華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?"},{"start":790.342,"end":810.929,"text":"那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?"},{"start":813.252,"end":813.492,"text":"執行進度已經到96.5了"},{"start":836.647,"end":836.767,"text":"主席"},{"start":853.939,"end":871.014,"text":"那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?"},{"start":871.92,"end":871.94,"text":"劉建國"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:24:43 - 10:39:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155416,"gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員早。"],["劉委員建國：部長早。部長，你可以大概跟委員會做個報告，114年度環境部的總預算案（含基金，就是全部）大約是多少？然後113年又是多少？112年又是多少？3年就好。"],["彭部長啓明：好，明年的預算（含基金）是177億，今年的話應該是173億左右，我們少了一點多億。"],["劉委員建國：少了一點多億？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：那112年度呢？"],["彭部長啓明：112年度也差不多，應該也是173億左右。"],["劉委員建國：是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我只看這兩年，我印象是這兩年、處理這兩年。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，但是我問3年，幕僚可以提供嗎？你們統統不知道？你們死定了！部長剛來，他沒有辦法注意到112年度的預算，或許還講得過去，但你們都在這邊待這麼久了還不曉得。那114年度是多少？110年度又是多少？環保署變成環境部之後，預算不增反減，你們交代得過去嗎？為什麼要把環保署變成環境部，理由何在？理由何在？新部長來，有沒有什麼新的政策、有沒有什麼新興的項目是有別於環保署的那個年代？部長，請簡單回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個部分在我上任之後也觀察到，但是其實委員知道我們政府各種的公建計畫、科技預算，大概都要提早半年前送進去，所以我上任之後真的也很努力想要增加一些預算，但是行政院的額度也告訴我額度已經滿了，增加是非常有限，加上我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接，所以我們有些署是預算增加的，有些反而是減少的，因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上。所以我也希望，跟委員報告，我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制，我們希望每個部會都要提計畫，因為要有提計畫、要做事才能夠申請到錢，所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加。"],["劉委員建國：我應該這麼說，我知道部長一定會去爭取，對不對？但是怎麼會沒有爭取到，反而不增反減，這個絕對是有問題的。相關的署增減預算，這是很正常的事情，因為執行的效益、績效等等一些問題，你們去做相關的一些調整。明年要開始執行碳費的徵收，我想在某一個程度上，你又貴為新部長，應該有些新興的項目，這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算？那倒也未必，但是署變成部之後，我想基本上整個格局跟你要去掌理的事項一定是增加的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，不一樣。"],["劉委員建國：所以從預算面去看到你這個部未來整個執行面也好、執行目標也好，還有相關要做得更積極的一些事項，應該都是要增加的，所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長做討論。我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查，我剛剛就講了，如果我們連這個都不清楚，還是各個單位都不把這個事情當成是一件事情，那審預算的時候，我覺得大家就會很難過了，這是第一點。","第二點，部長，你看上週臺灣碳費的價格終於定案，對不對？一般費率是每噸300元，同時提供優惠利率，有A、B兩種方案，分別是每噸50元、還有100元，對不對？台電、中油、中鋼都已經有初估他們自己可能要繳的碳費，如果依照300元來計算，台電可能要繳15億，中油繳19億，中鋼則是2到4億，這是國營事業碳排大戶的初估金額，台電及中油都表示在可負擔的範圍，我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話。同時，這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案，所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低。對於這樣的說法，部長，應該沒有錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好。但是在環境部提供的碳費簡報當中，最後有放上很多報導來證明碳費不會影響民生經濟的波動，部長也是這樣主張嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：OK。但是昨天聯合報就已經刊登了這個報導，表示碳費恐令萬物漲、業者憂綠色通膨，它是引用臺中經發局局長的說法，他認為多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本提高，重點是，由於我國的碳費價格比國際費率高，加上基本工資、電費同步調升，企業營運成本勢必要調高。最後一句話，中小企業面臨成本漲，也會順勢調整價格，最後帶動萬物皆漲。你還沒有回答之前，我先肯定部還有部長，在昨天禮拜天大家放棄休假的日子，馬上就用相關的數據來打臉，我是要給你肯定。但是減碳政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火，地方一直要放這種火，要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個，大家對於碳費新的制度都不瞭解，我上禮拜人在日本，某一個建商大老也喊出了一樣的話，所以我也要求我們一定要澄清，要平衡言論，我們強力做下去。我也發現其實國人對碳費是不瞭解的，所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本，而且要公開讓全民知道，今天這本是第一次在院會讓委員可以先看到，我們會讓所有的民眾都可以瞭解，我必須說很多人對這個是真的不瞭解的，而且環境部也沒有什麼廣宣的資源，我們只能努力來做。但是有一些人不瞭解，特別是某個建商大老這樣喊話，讓民眾憂心，我們會強力的去澄清，去跟他制止的，所以我們一定會這樣做。"],["劉委員建國：不是大老，它是地方政府，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：其實地方政府下午有澄清了。"],["劉委員建國：它澄清了？"],["彭部長啓明：它有一個新的說法出來了。"],["劉委員建國：OK！但是部長，你看你們的溝通，如果總預算案，環境部的總預算不減少1.7億，其實1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情、溝通的事情，你看你們整體的溝通案，到目前為止，你說溝通就困難了，不溝通會更困難，對不對？這是部長講的。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學者4場等等等，總共47場，獨缺地方政府，地方政府要不要辦？"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們會努力來辦理，因為委員比我們更瞭解地方，如果能夠找到一些有這個需求的，也希望未來在地方上能夠積極來結合辦理。"],["劉委員建國：所以我在這邊要跟部長特別要求，地方政府22個縣市，一個月內溝通完成，好不好？可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個會期我們都在立法院，所以委員再給我們多幾個月，可以嗎？"],["劉委員建國：你們坐在立法院的時間不多，我都幫你們算過了。"],["彭部長啓明：很多啦！"],["劉委員建國：第一個，沒有預算可審。第二個，你們的預算增加或不增加，你們也都沒有在緊張，召委也不一定會每次委員會都排你們，一個半月？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們努力。"],["劉委員建國：22場一個半月，OK吧？不要再讓地方政府放火了，不然你會越溝通越困難，這是你說的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情，費率定義後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通，我這邊具體要求是不是可以從雲林開始？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長。再來，部長也講了碳費如鞭，越快上路越好，過去衛福部針對菸捐也是菸捐如鞭，希望越快上路越好，初期大家可能都會朝這個方向、這個目的、目標去做，減量也會一直持續做。但它如果把它當作是成本化之後，碳費成本化之後，它覺得它可以負擔，就像剛才中油、台電講的那些話，未來就不是往減碳的這個方向走，反而是在它可負擔的範圍內去繳費，環境部變成收費大戶，還是你們讓預算減少，因為未來有碳費可以收，所以你們覺得總預算案減少是不為過的事情？我講話絕對有邏輯。如果是這個樣子的話，最後碳費成本化會導致什麼問題發生，部長應該比我更清楚，因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到要如何嚇阻，讓碳費不是從積極減碳的方向走，如果企業把它變成成本化之後，你們有什麼樣的因應作為？我沒有看到這個報告。"],["彭部長啓明：其實碳費的精神就是自主減碳，它就有很大的優惠利率，這就是委員說的內容，我也坦承我們對外的論述、溝通還真的有待加強，因為我們環境部沒有公關預算的經費。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你一直跟我說沒有這種公關的經費，你們的預算一直被減少，所以你不能一直說你沒有那個經費，你沒有那個經費就會被減少，所以你要想辦法去生出來，不然你是要跟我說明年有碳費可以收，你們有經費可以用，不是這樣說嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：再來，你的編程一定要弄出來，部長，我具體要求部長要提供給委員會參考，企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳，而不是把它可接受、可負擔範圍成本化，這樣我們的目標就不對了。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：另外還有一個滿嚴重的問題，碳費審議會議有建議兩年一期的碳費調整方案，預計2030年每噸要達到1,200元，等於明年開始，25、26是第一期，27、28是第二期，29、30是第三期，從明年開始的300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長，達到1,200元，確定要這樣做嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話，的確大家壓力會很大，但是我也跟大眾承諾過，全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率，由政府這樣收不見得效率好，所以我們也期待未來在四年內能夠研析總量管制的排放交易，這個會比較好。如果按照1,200塊收，委員說的問題的確就會跑出來，這個我們也考慮進去了，所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行，最後走到總量管制的排放交易。"],["劉委員建國：相關的企業也會有相對應的作為，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：它如果有充分的時間，它也把它計算在它的成本裡面，就枉費你都在處理了。"],["彭部長啓明：如果是1,200元的話，我相信現在所有的企業是沒辦法接受的。"],["劉委員建國：當然。"],["彭部長啓明：所以其實我們還是希望，因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的，然後有一些本地的產業我們可以給它一些免費的配額，所以其實這個部分的效率或管理會比較好。"],["劉委員建國：但是你在三期6年時間成長到百分之四百，你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我說的是另外一套制度，總量管制的排放交易，不是收碳費、碳稅，像新加坡目前預計到2030年也是要收到1,500元。"],["劉委員建國：但是部長這麼講就代表我們還有另外的……"],["彭部長啓明：新的制度，希望同步來實施。"],["劉委員建國：你的新的制度什麼時候要出來？"],["彭部長啓明：我們新的制度等於是，目前我們希望明年，明年6月我們就會組一個團到德國去，整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易，我們要有一個ETS的制度出來。"],["劉委員建國：好，我還是覺得有些問題，因為時間的關係，主席再給我1分鐘就好，經發署署長是不是有來？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你先聽一下，我請教楊署長，麥寮海淡廠是什麼狀況？2018年通過環評並要啟動興建計畫，預估2022年8月要完成，2022年5月台塑六輕發布消息，因疫情影響淡化廠的興建，要延後1年，到了2023年又延到今年10月31日，現在台塑又提出展延18個月，也就是要到2026年4月30日，但環境部是不同意，你們經發署呢？"],["楊署長志清：跟委員報告，這是我們產業園區管理局在處理的，關於它當初的進度，設備要進來的時候因為疫情影響慢了，所以才提出這樣的展延要求，這是業者不得已的措施，我們會看它實際提出的情況再來看，因為當初它是環評承諾。"],["劉委員建國：它的執行進度已經到96.5%了，為了剩下這百分之三點多要再展延18個月，經濟部沒有意見，我知道這是產園局在管的，沒有錯，但是當時整個組織架構在調整的過程裡面，我在司法及法制委員會有特別要求這件事情，你們要怎麼處理？"],["楊署長志清：委員，我回去請產業園區管理局做一個瞭解，再提供一份書面報告給委員。"],["劉委員建國：我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼，跟他回報這件事情，不能這樣處理，我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失，是不是也提出相關報告給我們參考？"],["楊署長志清：我們先提供相關進度跟書面報告給委員。"],["劉委員建國：相關進度我都知道，但是我覺得經濟部有督導的缺失，請把檢討報告提出來，兩個禮拜內，好不好？"],["楊署長志清：是。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}