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{\"word\": \"董\", \"start\": 730.516, \"end\": 730.636, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 730.636, \"end\": 730.756, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 730.756, \"end\": 730.776, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 730.776, \"end\": 730.856, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 730.856, \"end\": 730.916, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 730.916, \"end\": 731.397, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"諾\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 731.397, \"end\": 731.417, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 731.937, \"end\": 731.977, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"豪\", \"start\": 731.977, \"end\": 732.077, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 732.077, \"end\": 732.097, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,011 --> 00:00:13,462\n好謝謝主席主席我們先請五次長跟我們高鐵公司政總經理請五次長還有政總經理還有委員好來次長好\n\n2\n00:00:21,721 --> 00:00:44,684\n市長跟總經理我們首先要先提到上週這個高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題我想這真的是一個非常誇張的一個事件我想問一下這個總經理過去高鐵有沒有輸運過這麼多人潮的經驗我們有這麼多的人潮的經驗但是在瞬間裡面呢一下子湧進三四千人這是第一次\n\n3\n00:00:45,885 --> 00:01:12,972\n我跟總經理說明我覺得這個事情是這樣因為我看了新聞看這個圖片的時間是9點04分但你們事後新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮那8點45分新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制那晚上9點50分也就是一小時後就解除了相關管制這個人潮進入綠燈就表示說這個人潮的速度\n\n4\n00:01:13,853 --> 00:01:22,634\n當你們啟動管制你們表定是8點45到9點一小時後他就能夠解除表示他的人氣沒有多到這麼誇張嘛是一開始的管制有問題吧\n\n5\n00:01:23,868 --> 00:01:45,865\n跟委員報告那最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面呢這麼多人都沒有進來因為我們在8點31分以後啊那麼到這個到一到9點12分才有車子所以這個時候人潮就一直在進來那事實上我們在這一次的這個煙火啊在散了以後啊煙火以後其實客人在8點20啊就\n\n6\n00:01:47,807 --> 00:01:47,867\n臺灣鐵道局長\n\n7\n00:02:16,045 --> 00:02:39,339\n總經理這個是一式的教訓我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動當然因為這次是雲林可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多我們看後續我們看之前去年網友有看到就是台中站我想台中每一次的週末每一次連假像去年的這個是中秋連假它排隊排到一路排到停車場它就啟動人潮管制它很早就啟動了\n\n8\n00:02:40,299 --> 00:02:56,313\n因為他就是預期會有這麼多人嘛那像國慶煙火也知道嘛國慶煙火號稱會有30萬、40幾萬人到現場所以高鐵公司理論上你也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方所以我們希望經過這一次教訓未來我也拜託我們次長要督導一下就是\n\n9\n00:02:57,394 --> 00:03:15,244\n大型活動在輸運的時候你要提前規劃你不要說今年這次好運真的沒有發生嚴重的推擠但那個人潮真的很多那個網路上有非常多的照片跟影片我想次長跟總經理都有看到所以後續你們有沒有重新檢討過到底以後要怎麼面對這樣子大型活動的輸運機制\n\n10\n00:03:16,522 --> 00:03:32,894\n是,我想這一次主要是因為雲林的這個站區裡那個我們的車站裡面的空間太小了那我們啟動聯潮管制以後我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面然後在川塘省護衛區裡面大概有500個人\n\n11\n00:03:33,795 --> 00:03:48,593\n那剩下的這個人的話就整在我們的閘門以外了那大概有700個人換句話說我們的站體裡面車站裡面大概整有2000人所以到時候有3000多人到的時候我們就把這1000多人放在我們的這個站外\n\n12\n00:03:48,993 --> 00:04:08,910\n但是站外那邊的話呢因為後面的人一直進來還好我們那時候就這個鐵警啊協助我們不要讓他進去所以站外也要管制啦因為我看警察也很辛苦嘛但是警察的這個機制也是比較晚啟動啦都是已經人潮已經擠到不行他們才進來管制所以還是希望說高鐵公司你們這個算是獲利很好不能只顧賺錢啊\n\n13\n00:04:10,111 --> 00:04:28,576\n因為大家都希望說要離開當然做高鐵最方便嘛但是你就像雲林這一次我們辦所謂的國慶國慶煙火為什麼會辦在高鐵這個特定計畫局也是看上說這樣子輸入比較快大眾運輸在那邊輸入比較快所以我們希望說這高鐵公司第一個你們是這個官方的第二個你有社會企業責任嘛\n\n14\n00:04:28,996 --> 00:04:50,202\n不能說每次賺錢的很賺那個輸運的時候你們賺很多錢然後自由自動賣到賣到大家都擠都全部上市很擠但是結果在戰外我要安全的離開是件困難的事情所以這拜託一下未來你們在各戰區尤其在面臨到大型廉價大型活動的時候是不是這個機制要有一個檢討報告出來你們這次有做檢討報告嗎\n\n15\n00:04:53,044 --> 00:05:16,646\n我想這個委員謝謝你指導那事實上我要跟您報告就是說我們在這短短時間裡面我們開了12班12個加班12個這個車子那載運的大概有1萬人少所以呢這個整個機制是有的那只是說在短時間裡面人進來那所以我們就必須要把這個人放在這個站如果放到裡面以後怎麼辦以後會再次發生這類似的事情\n\n16\n00:05:17,647 --> 00:05:37,926\n我認同你們的確開了加班車把漁業台上的人運走這沒問題但我的問題是那以後於瞬間有這麼多人潮的時候各站有沒有一個作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣什麼時候來啟動什麼時候請警察來協助什麼時候啟動這相關管制你們有相關的檢討嗎還是過了就算了以後再看情況\n\n17\n00:05:38,186 --> 00:06:04,137\n其實事實上我們當然會有檢討那事實上我們在這次裡面呢我們都有很完整的SOP譬如說我們支援的人力呢大概有100人以上那我們在各個地方在做這個部分有些已經買票了那就是安排他進來沒有買票了我們安排他進來那是後來啦那是後來的事情一開始就沒有嘛一開始就是有買票的自由住的有票的全部都擠在門外有的人進得來有的人進不來我現在問的問題是說以後\n\n18\n00:06:06,254 --> 00:06:07,155\n這未來不能再發生類似的事情這次我想這是好願景\n\n19\n00:06:31,974 --> 00:06:54,728\n我是跟委員報告一下齁剛剛提到的這個其實我們要求高鐵公司要做檢討包括剛剛提到的站外的部分的動線我想這非常重要第二個剛剛也提到一個重點他9點12分才有8點多大概有人就散場跑去了所以這個駕開班車的那個時間點尤其可以再早一點假設啦我今天講我們回過頭來這個案子來講假設我8點50駕開一班車\n\n20\n00:07:00,071 --> 00:07:00,631\n臺鐵杜董上來一下好不好\n\n21\n00:07:37,231 --> 00:07:57,153\n董事長剛好今天討論的是我們鐵道安全那剛好上禮拜一個新的判決普悠瑪事故臺鐵跟司機各負50%的這個責任嘛但是我們看到議審的判決裡面當然是最新的判決說各負50%現在認定說司機有相關責任但是在議審的時候看到這個議審裡面提到說\n\n22\n00:07:59,535 --> 00:08:25,967\n這個駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢察員聯絡那發現通訊設備品質不良、人員裝不足那臺鐵內部的橫向聯繫直接指揮系統混亂臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈這是一審判決書提的那他二審裡面後面也覺得說駕駛員駕駛員責任但是我們要先問的我們只能針對結構性問題討論嘛一審提到的這部分指揮系統混亂橫向聯繫失靈這部分臺鐵公司有檢討了嗎\n\n23\n00:08:26,707 --> 00:08:54,278\n有各位委員報告這個事故發生以後我們有檢討然後有做改進檢討的結論是什麼就很多項啦包括我們對於這個車上我們這個ATP的一個監視還有就是互相聯絡的方式還有就是我們車子我們主風棒那個主營主風棒的一個改善這個我們都有都有做這個檢討改善\n\n24\n00:08:54,798 --> 00:09:00,412\n我們這樣講當然不希望再發生事故那只是未來所以我們以後未來台鐵的駕駛他不用去負擔這個風險了是不是就是說他當然\n\n25\n00:09:04,580 --> 00:09:27,889\n這一次這個普悠瑪事故當時發生的時候是因為駕駛員他根本找不到他到底怎麼辦沒有人跟他講他怎麼辦他當然去做了一些動作所以導致他現在要負50%的責任我跟你說今天台鐵的駕駛員他未來是要承擔還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險還是你可以保證說未來我們台鐵駕駛員在開車的時候他去尋求管制去尋求資源的時候你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的\n\n26\n00:09:29,289 --> 00:09:46,464\n跟委員報告這有兩部分我們一般來講執行我們這個列車乘務駕駛的他有他的規章制度這個他一定要遵守不像這一次我們普悠瑪事故很不幸我們司機員沒有遵守他的沒有遵照他的規章制度他沒遵守現在法院判他50%另外50%公司的責任\n\n27\n00:09:49,286 --> 00:10:12,375\n對對對公司的責任就是第二部分第二部分的話現在我們進行的改善我們都應該算是已經都完成到位了所以你可以保證說以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救的時候要求助的時候不會再發生上這次的事情對現在我們行控處都有新的SOP可以給他充分的資源因為為什麼要提到這個提到就要講到下面這一張\n\n28\n00:10:14,666 --> 00:10:26,883\n這個董事長這個一上來之後當然你們台鐵的管理層這個調薪成功但基層待遇沒有特別的這個影響沒有改變第一薪改善要再等等所以我想這個為什麼因為我覺得這對基層員工來講是一個很大的這個影響\n\n29\n00:10:31,129 --> 00:10:47,774\n當然你們說這是為對標所謂國營事業其他國營事業但是我們看到其他都是一樣都是國營事業起薪來講這個台鐵相對來講他的起薪就是比較低那他又要負擔這麼他如果又要負擔這麼大的風險那我們也看到這兩天的新聞而已其他國營事業招考的這個\n\n30\n00:10:49,054 --> 00:11:08,713\n錄取率非常非常低但我們台鐵的錄取率反而招考的人數反而不足所以這是一連串的結構問題我不知道台鐵公司現在公司化之後董事長你也調薪了那你對於這樣的底薪這種起薪這麼低面對的風險這麼高要怎麼辦後續我們再招考重新招考的話難道台鐵的這個員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎\n\n31\n00:11:10,014 --> 00:11:29,814\n各位委員報告其實我們國營事業我們的薪水都是依照我們的規定、規矩來的那的確我們台鐵公司現在尤其是基層員工我們的薪水不如某些其他國營事業所以我們現在公司我們一定要\n\n32\n00:11:30,655 --> 00:11:31,495\n董事長最後一句話因為時間也到了\n\n33\n00:11:47,096 --> 00:12:11,417\n我也坦誠的覺得說你們的確應該要增加營業收入不管你在後面要調票價或是說你要做這個土地開發但是我們希望這個錢這個資金是能夠回饋到基層員工嘛你不要說真的不要管理層調薪水啦你的基層若沒調薪水你的人你就一定不足人不足大家就想走走了之後經驗傳承出現問題那就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題嘛所以董事長你可以承諾說未來\n\n34\n00:12:11,937 --> 00:12:12,097\n黃健豪委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5011\t13462\t好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請五次長跟我們高鐵公司政總經理請五次長還有政總經理還有委員好來 次長好\n21721\t44684\t市長跟總經理我們首先要先提到上週這個高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題我想這真的是一個非常誇張的一個事件我想問一下這個總經理過去高鐵有沒有輸運過這麼多人潮的經驗我們有這麼多的人潮的經驗但是在瞬間裡面呢一下子湧進三四千人這是第一次\n45885\t72972\t我跟總經理說明我覺得這個事情是這樣因為我看了新聞看這個圖片的時間是9點04分但你們事後新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮那8點45分新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制那晚上9點50分也就是一小時後就解除了相關管制這個人潮進入綠燈就表示說這個人潮的速度\n73853\t82634\t當你們啟動管制你們表定是8點45到9點一小時後他就能夠解除表示他的人氣沒有多到這麼誇張嘛是一開始的管制有問題吧\n83868\t105865\t跟委員報告那最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面呢這麼多人都沒有進來因為我們在8點31分以後啊那麼到這個到一到9點12分才有車子所以這個時候人潮就一直在進來那事實上我們在這一次的這個煙火啊在散了以後啊煙火以後其實客人在8點20啊就\n107807\t107867\t臺灣鐵道局長\n136045\t159339\t總經理這個是一式的教訓我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動當然因為這次是雲林可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多我們看後續我們看之前去年網友有看到就是台中站我想台中每一次的週末每一次連假像去年的這個是中秋連假它排隊排到一路排到停車場它就啟動人潮管制它很早就啟動了\n160299\t176313\t因為他就是預期會有這麼多人嘛那像國慶煙火也知道嘛國慶煙火號稱會有30萬、40幾萬人到現場所以高鐵公司理論上你也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方所以我們希望經過這一次教訓未來我也拜託我們次長要督導一下就是\n177394\t195244\t大型活動在輸運的時候你要提前規劃你不要說今年這次好運真的沒有發生嚴重的推擠但那個人潮真的很多那個網路上有非常多的照片跟影片我想次長跟總經理都有看到所以後續你們有沒有重新檢討過到底以後要怎麼面對這樣子大型活動的輸運機制\n196522\t212894\t是,我想這一次主要是因為雲林的這個站區裡那個我們的車站裡面的空間太小了那我們啟動聯潮管制以後我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面然後在川塘省護衛區裡面大概有500個人\n213795\t228593\t那剩下的這個人的話就整在我們的閘門以外了那大概有700個人換句話說我們的站體裡面車站裡面大概整有2000人所以到時候有3000多人到的時候我們就把這1000多人放在我們的這個站外\n228993\t248910\t但是站外那邊的話呢因為後面的人一直進來還好我們那時候就這個鐵警啊協助我們不要讓他進去所以站外也要管制啦因為我看警察也很辛苦嘛但是警察的這個機制也是比較晚啟動啦都是已經人潮已經擠到不行他們才進來管制所以還是希望說高鐵公司你們這個算是獲利很好不能只顧賺錢啊\n250111\t268576\t因為大家都希望說要離開當然做高鐵最方便嘛但是你就像雲林這一次我們辦所謂的國慶國慶煙火為什麼會辦在高鐵這個特定計畫局也是看上說這樣子輸入比較快大眾運輸在那邊輸入比較快所以我們希望說這高鐵公司第一個你們是這個官方的第二個你有社會企業責任嘛\n268996\t290202\t不能說每次賺錢的很賺那個輸運的時候你們賺很多錢然後自由自動賣到賣到大家都擠都全部上市很擠但是結果在戰外我要安全的離開是件困難的事情所以這拜託一下未來你們在各戰區尤其在面臨到大型廉價大型活動的時候是不是這個機制要有一個檢討報告出來你們這次有做檢討報告嗎\n293044\t316646\t我想這個委員謝謝你指導那事實上我要跟您報告就是說我們在這短短時間裡面我們開了12班12個加班12個這個車子那載運的大概有1萬人少所以呢這個整個機制是有的那只是說在短時間裡面人進來那所以我們就必須要把這個人放在這個站如果放到裡面以後怎麼辦以後會再次發生這類似的事情\n317647\t337926\t我認同你們的確開了加班車把漁業台上的人運走這沒問題但我的問題是那以後於瞬間有這麼多人潮的時候各站有沒有一個作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣什麼時候來啟動什麼時候請警察來協助什麼時候啟動這相關管制你們有相關的檢討嗎還是過了就算了以後再看情況\n338186\t364137\t其實事實上我們當然會有檢討那事實上我們在這次裡面呢我們都有很完整的SOP譬如說我們支援的人力呢大概有100人以上那我們在各個地方在做這個部分有些已經買票了那就是安排他進來沒有買票了我們安排他進來那是後來啦那是後來的事情一開始就沒有嘛一開始就是有買票的自由住的有票的全部都擠在門外有的人進得來有的人進不來我現在問的問題是說以後\n366254\t367155\t這未來不能再發生類似的事情這次我想這是好願景\n391974\t414728\t我是跟委員報告一下齁剛剛提到的這個其實我們要求高鐵公司要做檢討包括剛剛提到的站外的部分的動線我想這非常重要第二個剛剛也提到一個重點他9點12分才有8點多大概有人就散場跑去了所以這個駕開班車的那個時間點尤其可以再早一點假設啦我今天講我們回過頭來這個案子來講假設我8點50駕開一班車\n420071\t420631\t臺鐵杜董上來一下好不好\n457231\t477153\t董事長剛好今天討論的是我們鐵道安全那剛好上禮拜一個新的判決普悠瑪事故臺鐵跟司機各負50%的這個責任嘛但是我們看到議審的判決裡面當然是最新的判決說各負50%現在認定說司機有相關責任但是在議審的時候看到這個議審裡面提到說\n479535\t505967\t這個駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢察員聯絡那發現通訊設備品質不良、人員裝不足那臺鐵內部的橫向聯繫直接指揮系統混亂臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈這是一審判決書提的那他二審裡面後面也覺得說駕駛員駕駛員責任但是我們要先問的我們只能針對結構性問題討論嘛一審提到的這部分指揮系統混亂橫向聯繫失靈這部分臺鐵公司有檢討了嗎\n506707\t534278\t有 各位委員報告 這個事故發生以後我們有檢討 然後有做改進檢討的結論是什麼就很多項啦 包括我們對於這個車上我們這個ATP的一個監視還有就是互相聯絡的方式還有就是我們車子 我們主風棒那個主營主風棒的一個改善 這個我們都有都有做這個檢討改善\n534798\t540412\t我們這樣講當然不希望再發生事故那只是未來所以我們以後未來台鐵的駕駛他不用去負擔這個風險了是不是就是說他當然\n544580\t567889\t這一次這個普悠瑪事故當時發生的時候是因為駕駛員他根本找不到他到底怎麼辦沒有人跟他講他怎麼辦他當然去做了一些動作所以導致他現在要負50%的責任我跟你說今天台鐵的駕駛員他未來是要承擔還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險還是你可以保證說未來我們台鐵駕駛員在開車的時候他去尋求管制去尋求資源的時候你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的\n569289\t586464\t跟委員報告這有兩部分我們一般來講執行我們這個列車乘務駕駛的他有他的規章制度這個他一定要遵守不像這一次我們普悠瑪事故很不幸我們司機員沒有遵守他的沒有遵照他的規章制度他沒遵守現在法院判他50%另外50%公司的責任\n589286\t612375\t對對對公司的責任就是第二部分第二部分的話現在我們進行的改善我們都應該算是已經都完成到位了所以你可以保證說以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救的時候要求助的時候不會再發生上這次的事情對現在我們行控處都有新的SOP可以給他充分的資源因為為什麼要提到這個提到就要講到下面這一張\n614666\t626883\t這個董事長這個一上來之後當然你們台鐵的管理層這個調薪成功但基層待遇沒有特別的這個影響沒有改變第一薪改善要再等等所以我想這個為什麼因為我覺得這對基層員工來講是一個很大的這個影響\n631129\t647774\t當然你們說這是為對標所謂國營事業其他國營事業但是我們看到其他都是一樣都是國營事業起薪來講這個台鐵相對來講他的起薪就是比較低那他又要負擔這麼他如果又要負擔這麼大的風險那我們也看到這兩天的新聞而已其他國營事業招考的這個\n649054\t668713\t錄取率非常非常低但我們台鐵的錄取率反而招考的人數反而不足所以這是一連串的結構問題我不知道台鐵公司現在公司化之後董事長你也調薪了那你對於這樣的底薪這種起薪這麼低面對的風險這麼高要怎麼辦後續我們再招考重新招考的話難道台鐵的這個員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎\n670014\t689814\t各位委員報告其實我們國營事業我們的薪水都是依照我們的規定、規矩來的那的確我們台鐵公司現在尤其是基層員工我們的薪水不如某些其他國營事業所以我們現在公司我們一定要\n690655\t691495\t董事長最後一句話因為時間也到了\n707096\t731417\t我也坦誠的覺得說你們的確應該要增加營業收入不管你在後面要調票價或是說你要做這個土地開發但是我們希望這個錢這個資金是能夠回饋到基層員工嘛你不要說真的不要管理層調薪水啦你的基層若沒調薪水你的人你就一定不足人不足大家就想走走了之後經驗傳承出現問題那就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題嘛所以董事長你可以承諾說未來\n731937\t732097\t黃健豪委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請五次長跟我們高鐵公司政總經理請五次長還有政總經理還有委員好來 次長好\n市長跟總經理我們首先要先提到上週這個高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題我想這真的是一個非常誇張的一個事件我想問一下這個總經理過去高鐵有沒有輸運過這麼多人潮的經驗我們有這麼多的人潮的經驗但是在瞬間裡面呢一下子湧進三四千人這是第一次\n我跟總經理說明我覺得這個事情是這樣因為我看了新聞看這個圖片的時間是9點04分但你們事後新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮那8點45分新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制那晚上9點50分也就是一小時後就解除了相關管制這個人潮進入綠燈就表示說這個人潮的速度\n當你們啟動管制你們表定是8點45到9點一小時後他就能夠解除表示他的人氣沒有多到這麼誇張嘛是一開始的管制有問題吧\n跟委員報告那最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面呢這麼多人都沒有進來因為我們在8點31分以後啊那麼到這個到一到9點12分才有車子所以這個時候人潮就一直在進來那事實上我們在這一次的這個煙火啊在散了以後啊煙火以後其實客人在8點20啊就\n臺灣鐵道局長\n總經理這個是一式的教訓我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動當然因為這次是雲林可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多我們看後續我們看之前去年網友有看到就是台中站我想台中每一次的週末每一次連假像去年的這個是中秋連假它排隊排到一路排到停車場它就啟動人潮管制它很早就啟動了\n因為他就是預期會有這麼多人嘛那像國慶煙火也知道嘛國慶煙火號稱會有30萬、40幾萬人到現場所以高鐵公司理論上你也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方所以我們希望經過這一次教訓未來我也拜託我們次長要督導一下就是\n大型活動在輸運的時候你要提前規劃你不要說今年這次好運真的沒有發生嚴重的推擠但那個人潮真的很多那個網路上有非常多的照片跟影片我想次長跟總經理都有看到所以後續你們有沒有重新檢討過到底以後要怎麼面對這樣子大型活動的輸運機制\n是,我想這一次主要是因為雲林的這個站區裡那個我們的車站裡面的空間太小了那我們啟動聯潮管制以後我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面然後在川塘省護衛區裡面大概有500個人\n那剩下的這個人的話就整在我們的閘門以外了那大概有700個人換句話說我們的站體裡面車站裡面大概整有2000人所以到時候有3000多人到的時候我們就把這1000多人放在我們的這個站外\n但是站外那邊的話呢因為後面的人一直進來還好我們那時候就這個鐵警啊協助我們不要讓他進去所以站外也要管制啦因為我看警察也很辛苦嘛但是警察的這個機制也是比較晚啟動啦都是已經人潮已經擠到不行他們才進來管制所以還是希望說高鐵公司你們這個算是獲利很好不能只顧賺錢啊\n因為大家都希望說要離開當然做高鐵最方便嘛但是你就像雲林這一次我們辦所謂的國慶國慶煙火為什麼會辦在高鐵這個特定計畫局也是看上說這樣子輸入比較快大眾運輸在那邊輸入比較快所以我們希望說這高鐵公司第一個你們是這個官方的第二個你有社會企業責任嘛\n不能說每次賺錢的很賺那個輸運的時候你們賺很多錢然後自由自動賣到賣到大家都擠都全部上市很擠但是結果在戰外我要安全的離開是件困難的事情所以這拜託一下未來你們在各戰區尤其在面臨到大型廉價大型活動的時候是不是這個機制要有一個檢討報告出來你們這次有做檢討報告嗎\n我想這個委員謝謝你指導那事實上我要跟您報告就是說我們在這短短時間裡面我們開了12班12個加班12個這個車子那載運的大概有1萬人少所以呢這個整個機制是有的那只是說在短時間裡面人進來那所以我們就必須要把這個人放在這個站如果放到裡面以後怎麼辦以後會再次發生這類似的事情\n我認同你們的確開了加班車把漁業台上的人運走這沒問題但我的問題是那以後於瞬間有這麼多人潮的時候各站有沒有一個作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣什麼時候來啟動什麼時候請警察來協助什麼時候啟動這相關管制你們有相關的檢討嗎還是過了就算了以後再看情況\n其實事實上我們當然會有檢討那事實上我們在這次裡面呢我們都有很完整的SOP譬如說我們支援的人力呢大概有100人以上那我們在各個地方在做這個部分有些已經買票了那就是安排他進來沒有買票了我們安排他進來那是後來啦那是後來的事情一開始就沒有嘛一開始就是有買票的自由住的有票的全部都擠在門外有的人進得來有的人進不來我現在問的問題是說以後\n這未來不能再發生類似的事情這次我想這是好願景\n我是跟委員報告一下齁剛剛提到的這個其實我們要求高鐵公司要做檢討包括剛剛提到的站外的部分的動線我想這非常重要第二個剛剛也提到一個重點他9點12分才有8點多大概有人就散場跑去了所以這個駕開班車的那個時間點尤其可以再早一點假設啦我今天講我們回過頭來這個案子來講假設我8點50駕開一班車\n臺鐵杜董上來一下好不好\n董事長剛好今天討論的是我們鐵道安全那剛好上禮拜一個新的判決普悠瑪事故臺鐵跟司機各負50%的這個責任嘛但是我們看到議審的判決裡面當然是最新的判決說各負50%現在認定說司機有相關責任但是在議審的時候看到這個議審裡面提到說\n這個駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢察員聯絡那發現通訊設備品質不良、人員裝不足那臺鐵內部的橫向聯繫直接指揮系統混亂臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈這是一審判決書提的那他二審裡面後面也覺得說駕駛員駕駛員責任但是我們要先問的我們只能針對結構性問題討論嘛一審提到的這部分指揮系統混亂橫向聯繫失靈這部分臺鐵公司有檢討了嗎\n有 各位委員報告 這個事故發生以後我們有檢討 然後有做改進檢討的結論是什麼就很多項啦 包括我們對於這個車上我們這個ATP的一個監視還有就是互相聯絡的方式還有就是我們車子 我們主風棒那個主營主風棒的一個改善 這個我們都有都有做這個檢討改善\n我們這樣講當然不希望再發生事故那只是未來所以我們以後未來台鐵的駕駛他不用去負擔這個風險了是不是就是說他當然\n這一次這個普悠瑪事故當時發生的時候是因為駕駛員他根本找不到他到底怎麼辦沒有人跟他講他怎麼辦他當然去做了一些動作所以導致他現在要負50%的責任我跟你說今天台鐵的駕駛員他未來是要承擔還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險還是你可以保證說未來我們台鐵駕駛員在開車的時候他去尋求管制去尋求資源的時候你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的\n跟委員報告這有兩部分我們一般來講執行我們這個列車乘務駕駛的他有他的規章制度這個他一定要遵守不像這一次我們普悠瑪事故很不幸我們司機員沒有遵守他的沒有遵照他的規章制度他沒遵守現在法院判他50%另外50%公司的責任\n對對對公司的責任就是第二部分第二部分的話現在我們進行的改善我們都應該算是已經都完成到位了所以你可以保證說以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救的時候要求助的時候不會再發生上這次的事情對現在我們行控處都有新的SOP可以給他充分的資源因為為什麼要提到這個提到就要講到下面這一張\n這個董事長這個一上來之後當然你們台鐵的管理層這個調薪成功但基層待遇沒有特別的這個影響沒有改變第一薪改善要再等等所以我想這個為什麼因為我覺得這對基層員工來講是一個很大的這個影響\n當然你們說這是為對標所謂國營事業其他國營事業但是我們看到其他都是一樣都是國營事業起薪來講這個台鐵相對來講他的起薪就是比較低那他又要負擔這麼他如果又要負擔這麼大的風險那我們也看到這兩天的新聞而已其他國營事業招考的這個\n錄取率非常非常低但我們台鐵的錄取率反而招考的人數反而不足所以這是一連串的結構問題我不知道台鐵公司現在公司化之後董事長你也調薪了那你對於這樣的底薪這種起薪這麼低面對的風險這麼高要怎麼辦後續我們再招考重新招考的話難道台鐵的這個員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎\n各位委員報告其實我們國營事業我們的薪水都是依照我們的規定、規矩來的那的確我們台鐵公司現在尤其是基層員工我們的薪水不如某些其他國營事業所以我們現在公司我們一定要\n董事長最後一句話因為時間也到了\n我也坦誠的覺得說你們的確應該要增加營業收入不管你在後面要調票價或是說你要做這個土地開發但是我們希望這個錢這個資金是能夠回饋到基層員工嘛你不要說真的不要管理層調薪水啦你的基層若沒調薪水你的人你就一定不足人不足大家就想走走了之後經驗傳承出現問題那就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題嘛所以董事長你可以承諾說未來\n黃健豪委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.011 --> 00:13.462\n好謝謝主席主席我們先請五次長跟我們高鐵公司政總經理請五次長還有政總經理還有委員好來次長好\n\n00:21.721 --> 00:44.684\n市長跟總經理我們首先要先提到上週這個高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題我想這真的是一個非常誇張的一個事件我想問一下這個總經理過去高鐵有沒有輸運過這麼多人潮的經驗我們有這麼多的人潮的經驗但是在瞬間裡面呢一下子湧進三四千人這是第一次\n\n00:45.885 --> 01:12.972\n我跟總經理說明我覺得這個事情是這樣因為我看了新聞看這個圖片的時間是9點04分但你們事後新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮那8點45分新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制那晚上9點50分也就是一小時後就解除了相關管制這個人潮進入綠燈就表示說這個人潮的速度\n\n01:13.853 --> 01:22.634\n當你們啟動管制你們表定是8點45到9點一小時後他就能夠解除表示他的人氣沒有多到這麼誇張嘛是一開始的管制有問題吧\n\n01:23.868 --> 01:45.865\n跟委員報告那最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面呢這麼多人都沒有進來因為我們在8點31分以後啊那麼到這個到一到9點12分才有車子所以這個時候人潮就一直在進來那事實上我們在這一次的這個煙火啊在散了以後啊煙火以後其實客人在8點20啊就\n\n01:47.807 --> 01:47.867\n臺灣鐵道局長\n\n02:16.045 --> 02:39.339\n總經理這個是一式的教訓我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動當然因為這次是雲林可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多我們看後續我們看之前去年網友有看到就是台中站我想台中每一次的週末每一次連假像去年的這個是中秋連假它排隊排到一路排到停車場它就啟動人潮管制它很早就啟動了\n\n02:40.299 --> 02:56.313\n因為他就是預期會有這麼多人嘛那像國慶煙火也知道嘛國慶煙火號稱會有30萬、40幾萬人到現場所以高鐵公司理論上你也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方所以我們希望經過這一次教訓未來我也拜託我們次長要督導一下就是\n\n02:57.394 --> 03:15.244\n大型活動在輸運的時候你要提前規劃你不要說今年這次好運真的沒有發生嚴重的推擠但那個人潮真的很多那個網路上有非常多的照片跟影片我想次長跟總經理都有看到所以後續你們有沒有重新檢討過到底以後要怎麼面對這樣子大型活動的輸運機制\n\n03:16.522 --> 03:32.894\n是,我想這一次主要是因為雲林的這個站區裡那個我們的車站裡面的空間太小了那我們啟動聯潮管制以後我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面然後在川塘省護衛區裡面大概有500個人\n\n03:33.795 --> 03:48.593\n那剩下的這個人的話就整在我們的閘門以外了那大概有700個人換句話說我們的站體裡面車站裡面大概整有2000人所以到時候有3000多人到的時候我們就把這1000多人放在我們的這個站外\n\n03:48.993 --> 04:08.910\n但是站外那邊的話呢因為後面的人一直進來還好我們那時候就這個鐵警啊協助我們不要讓他進去所以站外也要管制啦因為我看警察也很辛苦嘛但是警察的這個機制也是比較晚啟動啦都是已經人潮已經擠到不行他們才進來管制所以還是希望說高鐵公司你們這個算是獲利很好不能只顧賺錢啊\n\n04:10.111 --> 04:28.576\n因為大家都希望說要離開當然做高鐵最方便嘛但是你就像雲林這一次我們辦所謂的國慶國慶煙火為什麼會辦在高鐵這個特定計畫局也是看上說這樣子輸入比較快大眾運輸在那邊輸入比較快所以我們希望說這高鐵公司第一個你們是這個官方的第二個你有社會企業責任嘛\n\n04:28.996 --> 04:50.202\n不能說每次賺錢的很賺那個輸運的時候你們賺很多錢然後自由自動賣到賣到大家都擠都全部上市很擠但是結果在戰外我要安全的離開是件困難的事情所以這拜託一下未來你們在各戰區尤其在面臨到大型廉價大型活動的時候是不是這個機制要有一個檢討報告出來你們這次有做檢討報告嗎\n\n04:53.044 --> 05:16.646\n我想這個委員謝謝你指導那事實上我要跟您報告就是說我們在這短短時間裡面我們開了12班12個加班12個這個車子那載運的大概有1萬人少所以呢這個整個機制是有的那只是說在短時間裡面人進來那所以我們就必須要把這個人放在這個站如果放到裡面以後怎麼辦以後會再次發生這類似的事情\n\n05:17.647 --> 05:37.926\n我認同你們的確開了加班車把漁業台上的人運走這沒問題但我的問題是那以後於瞬間有這麼多人潮的時候各站有沒有一個作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣什麼時候來啟動什麼時候請警察來協助什麼時候啟動這相關管制你們有相關的檢討嗎還是過了就算了以後再看情況\n\n05:38.186 --> 06:04.137\n其實事實上我們當然會有檢討那事實上我們在這次裡面呢我們都有很完整的SOP譬如說我們支援的人力呢大概有100人以上那我們在各個地方在做這個部分有些已經買票了那就是安排他進來沒有買票了我們安排他進來那是後來啦那是後來的事情一開始就沒有嘛一開始就是有買票的自由住的有票的全部都擠在門外有的人進得來有的人進不來我現在問的問題是說以後\n\n06:06.254 --> 06:07.155\n這未來不能再發生類似的事情這次我想這是好願景\n\n06:31.974 --> 06:54.728\n我是跟委員報告一下齁剛剛提到的這個其實我們要求高鐵公司要做檢討包括剛剛提到的站外的部分的動線我想這非常重要第二個剛剛也提到一個重點他9點12分才有8點多大概有人就散場跑去了所以這個駕開班車的那個時間點尤其可以再早一點假設啦我今天講我們回過頭來這個案子來講假設我8點50駕開一班車\n\n07:00.071 --> 07:00.631\n臺鐵杜董上來一下好不好\n\n07:37.231 --> 07:57.153\n董事長剛好今天討論的是我們鐵道安全那剛好上禮拜一個新的判決普悠瑪事故臺鐵跟司機各負50%的這個責任嘛但是我們看到議審的判決裡面當然是最新的判決說各負50%現在認定說司機有相關責任但是在議審的時候看到這個議審裡面提到說\n\n07:59.535 --> 08:25.967\n這個駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢察員聯絡那發現通訊設備品質不良、人員裝不足那臺鐵內部的橫向聯繫直接指揮系統混亂臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈這是一審判決書提的那他二審裡面後面也覺得說駕駛員駕駛員責任但是我們要先問的我們只能針對結構性問題討論嘛一審提到的這部分指揮系統混亂橫向聯繫失靈這部分臺鐵公司有檢討了嗎\n\n08:26.707 --> 08:54.278\n有各位委員報告這個事故發生以後我們有檢討然後有做改進檢討的結論是什麼就很多項啦包括我們對於這個車上我們這個ATP的一個監視還有就是互相聯絡的方式還有就是我們車子我們主風棒那個主營主風棒的一個改善這個我們都有都有做這個檢討改善\n\n08:54.798 --> 09:00.412\n我們這樣講當然不希望再發生事故那只是未來所以我們以後未來台鐵的駕駛他不用去負擔這個風險了是不是就是說他當然\n\n09:04.580 --> 09:27.889\n這一次這個普悠瑪事故當時發生的時候是因為駕駛員他根本找不到他到底怎麼辦沒有人跟他講他怎麼辦他當然去做了一些動作所以導致他現在要負50%的責任我跟你說今天台鐵的駕駛員他未來是要承擔還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險還是你可以保證說未來我們台鐵駕駛員在開車的時候他去尋求管制去尋求資源的時候你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的\n\n09:29.289 --> 09:46.464\n跟委員報告這有兩部分我們一般來講執行我們這個列車乘務駕駛的他有他的規章制度這個他一定要遵守不像這一次我們普悠瑪事故很不幸我們司機員沒有遵守他的沒有遵照他的規章制度他沒遵守現在法院判他50%另外50%公司的責任\n\n09:49.286 --> 10:12.375\n對對對公司的責任就是第二部分第二部分的話現在我們進行的改善我們都應該算是已經都完成到位了所以你可以保證說以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救的時候要求助的時候不會再發生上這次的事情對現在我們行控處都有新的SOP可以給他充分的資源因為為什麼要提到這個提到就要講到下面這一張\n\n10:14.666 --> 10:26.883\n這個董事長這個一上來之後當然你們台鐵的管理層這個調薪成功但基層待遇沒有特別的這個影響沒有改變第一薪改善要再等等所以我想這個為什麼因為我覺得這對基層員工來講是一個很大的這個影響\n\n10:31.129 --> 10:47.774\n當然你們說這是為對標所謂國營事業其他國營事業但是我們看到其他都是一樣都是國營事業起薪來講這個台鐵相對來講他的起薪就是比較低那他又要負擔這麼他如果又要負擔這麼大的風險那我們也看到這兩天的新聞而已其他國營事業招考的這個\n\n10:49.054 --> 11:08.713\n錄取率非常非常低但我們台鐵的錄取率反而招考的人數反而不足所以這是一連串的結構問題我不知道台鐵公司現在公司化之後董事長你也調薪了那你對於這樣的底薪這種起薪這麼低面對的風險這麼高要怎麼辦後續我們再招考重新招考的話難道台鐵的這個員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎\n\n11:10.014 --> 11:29.814\n各位委員報告其實我們國營事業我們的薪水都是依照我們的規定、規矩來的那的確我們台鐵公司現在尤其是基層員工我們的薪水不如某些其他國營事業所以我們現在公司我們一定要\n\n11:30.655 --> 11:31.495\n董事長最後一句話因為時間也到了\n\n11:47.096 --> 12:11.417\n我也坦誠的覺得說你們的確應該要增加營業收入不管你在後面要調票價或是說你要做這個土地開發但是我們希望這個錢這個資金是能夠回饋到基層員工嘛你不要說真的不要管理層調薪水啦你的基層若沒調薪水你的人你就一定不足人不足大家就想走走了之後經驗傳承出現問題那就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題嘛所以董事長你可以承諾說未來\n\n12:11.937 --> 12:12.097\n黃健豪委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.011,"end":13.462,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請五次長跟我們高鐵公司政總經理請五次長還有政總經理還有委員好來 次長好"},{"start":21.721,"end":44.684,"text":"市長跟總經理我們首先要先提到上週這個高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題我想這真的是一個非常誇張的一個事件我想問一下這個總經理過去高鐵有沒有輸運過這麼多人潮的經驗我們有這麼多的人潮的經驗但是在瞬間裡面呢一下子湧進三四千人這是第一次"},{"start":45.885,"end":72.972,"text":"我跟總經理說明我覺得這個事情是這樣因為我看了新聞看這個圖片的時間是9點04分但你們事後新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮那8點45分新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制那晚上9點50分也就是一小時後就解除了相關管制這個人潮進入綠燈就表示說這個人潮的速度"},{"start":73.853,"end":82.634,"text":"當你們啟動管制你們表定是8點45到9點一小時後他就能夠解除表示他的人氣沒有多到這麼誇張嘛是一開始的管制有問題吧"},{"start":83.868,"end":105.865,"text":"跟委員報告那最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面呢這麼多人都沒有進來因為我們在8點31分以後啊那麼到這個到一到9點12分才有車子所以這個時候人潮就一直在進來那事實上我們在這一次的這個煙火啊在散了以後啊煙火以後其實客人在8點20啊就"},{"start":107.807,"end":107.867,"text":"臺灣鐵道局長"},{"start":136.045,"end":159.339,"text":"總經理這個是一式的教訓我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動當然因為這次是雲林可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多我們看後續我們看之前去年網友有看到就是台中站我想台中每一次的週末每一次連假像去年的這個是中秋連假它排隊排到一路排到停車場它就啟動人潮管制它很早就啟動了"},{"start":160.299,"end":176.313,"text":"因為他就是預期會有這麼多人嘛那像國慶煙火也知道嘛國慶煙火號稱會有30萬、40幾萬人到現場所以高鐵公司理論上你也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方所以我們希望經過這一次教訓未來我也拜託我們次長要督導一下就是"},{"start":177.394,"end":195.244,"text":"大型活動在輸運的時候你要提前規劃你不要說今年這次好運真的沒有發生嚴重的推擠但那個人潮真的很多那個網路上有非常多的照片跟影片我想次長跟總經理都有看到所以後續你們有沒有重新檢討過到底以後要怎麼面對這樣子大型活動的輸運機制"},{"start":196.522,"end":212.894,"text":"是,我想這一次主要是因為雲林的這個站區裡那個我們的車站裡面的空間太小了那我們啟動聯潮管制以後我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面然後在川塘省護衛區裡面大概有500個人"},{"start":213.795,"end":228.593,"text":"那剩下的這個人的話就整在我們的閘門以外了那大概有700個人換句話說我們的站體裡面車站裡面大概整有2000人所以到時候有3000多人到的時候我們就把這1000多人放在我們的這個站外"},{"start":228.993,"end":248.91,"text":"但是站外那邊的話呢因為後面的人一直進來還好我們那時候就這個鐵警啊協助我們不要讓他進去所以站外也要管制啦因為我看警察也很辛苦嘛但是警察的這個機制也是比較晚啟動啦都是已經人潮已經擠到不行他們才進來管制所以還是希望說高鐵公司你們這個算是獲利很好不能只顧賺錢啊"},{"start":250.111,"end":268.576,"text":"因為大家都希望說要離開當然做高鐵最方便嘛但是你就像雲林這一次我們辦所謂的國慶國慶煙火為什麼會辦在高鐵這個特定計畫局也是看上說這樣子輸入比較快大眾運輸在那邊輸入比較快所以我們希望說這高鐵公司第一個你們是這個官方的第二個你有社會企業責任嘛"},{"start":268.996,"end":290.202,"text":"不能說每次賺錢的很賺那個輸運的時候你們賺很多錢然後自由自動賣到賣到大家都擠都全部上市很擠但是結果在戰外我要安全的離開是件困難的事情所以這拜託一下未來你們在各戰區尤其在面臨到大型廉價大型活動的時候是不是這個機制要有一個檢討報告出來你們這次有做檢討報告嗎"},{"start":293.044,"end":316.646,"text":"我想這個委員謝謝你指導那事實上我要跟您報告就是說我們在這短短時間裡面我們開了12班12個加班12個這個車子那載運的大概有1萬人少所以呢這個整個機制是有的那只是說在短時間裡面人進來那所以我們就必須要把這個人放在這個站如果放到裡面以後怎麼辦以後會再次發生這類似的事情"},{"start":317.647,"end":337.926,"text":"我認同你們的確開了加班車把漁業台上的人運走這沒問題但我的問題是那以後於瞬間有這麼多人潮的時候各站有沒有一個作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣什麼時候來啟動什麼時候請警察來協助什麼時候啟動這相關管制你們有相關的檢討嗎還是過了就算了以後再看情況"},{"start":338.186,"end":364.137,"text":"其實事實上我們當然會有檢討那事實上我們在這次裡面呢我們都有很完整的SOP譬如說我們支援的人力呢大概有100人以上那我們在各個地方在做這個部分有些已經買票了那就是安排他進來沒有買票了我們安排他進來那是後來啦那是後來的事情一開始就沒有嘛一開始就是有買票的自由住的有票的全部都擠在門外有的人進得來有的人進不來我現在問的問題是說以後"},{"start":366.254,"end":367.155,"text":"這未來不能再發生類似的事情這次我想這是好願景"},{"start":391.974,"end":414.728,"text":"我是跟委員報告一下齁剛剛提到的這個其實我們要求高鐵公司要做檢討包括剛剛提到的站外的部分的動線我想這非常重要第二個剛剛也提到一個重點他9點12分才有8點多大概有人就散場跑去了所以這個駕開班車的那個時間點尤其可以再早一點假設啦我今天講我們回過頭來這個案子來講假設我8點50駕開一班車"},{"start":420.071,"end":420.631,"text":"臺鐵杜董上來一下好不好"},{"start":457.231,"end":477.153,"text":"董事長剛好今天討論的是我們鐵道安全那剛好上禮拜一個新的判決普悠瑪事故臺鐵跟司機各負50%的這個責任嘛但是我們看到議審的判決裡面當然是最新的判決說各負50%現在認定說司機有相關責任但是在議審的時候看到這個議審裡面提到說"},{"start":479.535,"end":505.967,"text":"這個駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢察員聯絡那發現通訊設備品質不良、人員裝不足那臺鐵內部的橫向聯繫直接指揮系統混亂臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈這是一審判決書提的那他二審裡面後面也覺得說駕駛員駕駛員責任但是我們要先問的我們只能針對結構性問題討論嘛一審提到的這部分指揮系統混亂橫向聯繫失靈這部分臺鐵公司有檢討了嗎"},{"start":506.707,"end":534.278,"text":"有 各位委員報告 這個事故發生以後我們有檢討 然後有做改進檢討的結論是什麼就很多項啦 包括我們對於這個車上我們這個ATP的一個監視還有就是互相聯絡的方式還有就是我們車子 我們主風棒那個主營主風棒的一個改善 這個我們都有都有做這個檢討改善"},{"start":534.798,"end":540.412,"text":"我們這樣講當然不希望再發生事故那只是未來所以我們以後未來台鐵的駕駛他不用去負擔這個風險了是不是就是說他當然"},{"start":544.58,"end":567.889,"text":"這一次這個普悠瑪事故當時發生的時候是因為駕駛員他根本找不到他到底怎麼辦沒有人跟他講他怎麼辦他當然去做了一些動作所以導致他現在要負50%的責任我跟你說今天台鐵的駕駛員他未來是要承擔還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險還是你可以保證說未來我們台鐵駕駛員在開車的時候他去尋求管制去尋求資源的時候你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的"},{"start":569.289,"end":586.464,"text":"跟委員報告這有兩部分我們一般來講執行我們這個列車乘務駕駛的他有他的規章制度這個他一定要遵守不像這一次我們普悠瑪事故很不幸我們司機員沒有遵守他的沒有遵照他的規章制度他沒遵守現在法院判他50%另外50%公司的責任"},{"start":589.286,"end":612.375,"text":"對對對公司的責任就是第二部分第二部分的話現在我們進行的改善我們都應該算是已經都完成到位了所以你可以保證說以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救的時候要求助的時候不會再發生上這次的事情對現在我們行控處都有新的SOP可以給他充分的資源因為為什麼要提到這個提到就要講到下面這一張"},{"start":614.666,"end":626.883,"text":"這個董事長這個一上來之後當然你們台鐵的管理層這個調薪成功但基層待遇沒有特別的這個影響沒有改變第一薪改善要再等等所以我想這個為什麼因為我覺得這對基層員工來講是一個很大的這個影響"},{"start":631.129,"end":647.774,"text":"當然你們說這是為對標所謂國營事業其他國營事業但是我們看到其他都是一樣都是國營事業起薪來講這個台鐵相對來講他的起薪就是比較低那他又要負擔這麼他如果又要負擔這麼大的風險那我們也看到這兩天的新聞而已其他國營事業招考的這個"},{"start":649.054,"end":668.713,"text":"錄取率非常非常低但我們台鐵的錄取率反而招考的人數反而不足所以這是一連串的結構問題我不知道台鐵公司現在公司化之後董事長你也調薪了那你對於這樣的底薪這種起薪這麼低面對的風險這麼高要怎麼辦後續我們再招考重新招考的話難道台鐵的這個員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎"},{"start":670.014,"end":689.814,"text":"各位委員報告其實我們國營事業我們的薪水都是依照我們的規定、規矩來的那的確我們台鐵公司現在尤其是基層員工我們的薪水不如某些其他國營事業所以我們現在公司我們一定要"},{"start":690.655,"end":691.495,"text":"董事長最後一句話因為時間也到了"},{"start":707.096,"end":731.417,"text":"我也坦誠的覺得說你們的確應該要增加營業收入不管你在後面要調票價或是說你要做這個土地開發但是我們希望這個錢這個資金是能夠回饋到基層員工嘛你不要說真的不要管理層調薪水啦你的基層若沒調薪水你的人你就一定不足人不足大家就想走走了之後經驗傳承出現問題那就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題嘛所以董事長你可以承諾說未來"},{"start":731.937,"end":732.097,"text":"黃健豪委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:30:46 - 10:43:16","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155419,"gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時30分）謝謝主席。主席，我們先請伍次長跟高鐵公司的鄭總經理。"],["主席：請伍次長還有鄭總經理。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好。次長跟總經理，我們首先一定要先提到上週高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題，我想這真的是一個非常誇張的事件，我想問一下總經理，過去高鐵有沒有疏運過這麼多人潮的經驗？"],["鄭總經理光遠：我們有這麼多人潮的經驗，但是在瞬間裡面，一下子湧進三、四千人，這是第一次。"],["黃委員健豪：我跟總經理說明，我覺得這個事情是這樣，因為我看了新聞，你看這個圖片的時間是9點4分，你們事後的新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制，但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮，那新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制，晚上9點50分，也就是1小時後就解除了相關管制，人潮進入綠燈，就表示說這個人潮的速度……當你們啟動管制，你們表定是8點45，到9點，1小時後它就能夠解除，表示它的人其實沒有多到這麼誇張，是一開始的管制有問題吧？"],["鄭總經理光遠：跟委員報告，最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面這麼多人，因為我們在8點31分以後，一直到9點12分才有車子，所以這個時候人潮就一直在進來。事實上我們在這次的煙火散了以後，其實客人在8點20分就湧進了這個車站，我們本來預期應該是在8點40分煙火放完，8點45分以後才會來，那8點20分我們發現這麼大量的人潮湧進，我們就提早啟動應變的機制，換句話說，因為我們8點31分有車子，所以我們那個時候就把閘門打開，旅客就不需要一個一個驗票，可以進去一直走。"],["黃委員健豪：好，總經理，這個是一次的教訓，我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動。"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。"],["黃委員健豪：但因為這次是雲林，可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多。我們看之前，去年網友有看到在臺中站，臺中每一次的周末、每一次的連假，像去年的中秋連假，它排隊一路排到停車場，它就啟動人潮管制，它很早就啟動了，因為它就是預期會有這麼多人。那像國慶煙火也是，國慶煙火號稱會有30萬、四十幾萬人到現場，所以高鐵公司理論上也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方，所以我們希望經過這一次的教訓，未來我也拜託我們次長要督導一下，就是這種大型活動在疏運的時候，你要提前規劃，那是因為這次好運，真的沒有發生嚴重的推擠，但那個人潮真的很多，網路上有非常多的照片跟影片，我想次長跟總經理也都有看到，所以後續你們有沒有重新檢討過，到底以後要怎麼樣面對這樣子大型活動的疏運機制？"],["鄭總經理光遠：我想這一次最主要是因為雲林車站裡面的空間太小了，我們啟動人潮管制以後，我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面，然後在川堂層付費區裡面大概有500個人，剩下的人就只能在我們的閘門以外了，那大概有700個人。換句話說，我們的站體裡面、車站裡面大概只能有2,000人，所以那時候有三千多人到的時候，我們就把這一千多人放在我們的站外，但是站外那邊的話，因為後面的人一直進來，還好那時候有鐵警協助我們不要讓他們進去，所以我們……"],["黃委員健豪：對啦！所以站外也要管制，因為我看警察也很辛苦，但是警察的機制也是比較晚啟動，人潮都已經擠到不行，他們才進來管制，所以還是希望高鐵公司，你們真的算是獲利很好，但不能只顧賺錢。因為大家要離開都希望坐高鐵最方便，就像雲林這一次辦所謂的國慶煙火，為什麼會辦在高鐵特定計畫區？也是看上這樣疏運比較快，有大眾運輸在那邊疏運比較快，所以我希望高鐵公司，第一個，你們是官方；第二個，你們有社會企業責任，不能每次疏運的時候賺很多錢，賣自由座讓大家全都擠上車，結果在站外要安全地離開卻是一件困難的事情。拜託一下，未來你們的各站區，尤其在面臨到連假、大型活動的時候，是不是要有一個機制的檢討報告出來？你們這次有做檢討報告嗎？"],["鄭總經理光遠：謝謝指導。事實上，我要跟您報告，我們在這短短時間裡面開了12班車次，載運大概有1萬人，所以整個機制是有的，只是說在短時間裡面人進來，就變成必須要把人放在站體。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，那以後怎麼辦？以後會不會再次發生類似的事情？我認同，你們也的確開了加班車，把月臺上的人運走沒問題，但我的問題是以後一瞬間湧入這麼多人潮的時候，各站有沒有作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣，什麼時候來啟動、什麼時候請警察來協助、什麼時候啟動相關管制，你們有相關的檢討嗎？還是這次過了就算了，以後再看情況？"],["鄭總經理光遠：我們當然會有檢討。事實上，這次有很完整的SOP，譬如支援的人力大概有100人以上在各個地方協助，有些已經買票了，那就是安排他進來；沒有買票的，就安排他去買票，其實都是有的。"],["黃委員健豪：那是後來的事情，一開始沒有，一開始就是有買票的、自由座有票的，全部都擠在門外，有的人進得來，有人進不來。我現在問的是，以後類似這樣的問題，你們的機制有檢討報告嗎？還是看著辦？"],["鄭總經理光遠：不是看著辦，事實上，我們會就原有的機制再強化、補強，尤其跟鐵警的配合會更即時。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝總經理，請回座。"],["鄭總經理光遠：謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，未來真的不能再發生類似的事情，我想這次是好運。"],["伍次長勝園：對，我跟委員報告一下，剛剛提到的，我們也要求高鐵公司要檢討，包括剛剛提到站外的動線，我想這非常重要。第二個，剛才提到一個重點，車班9點12分才有，八點多大概有人就先散場跑去了，所以加開班車的時間點也許可以再早一點。我回過頭以這個案子來講，假設8點50分加開一班車，就紓解掉一大部分，不用一直要累積到9點12分，如果有人看到這邊人很多，會更急著想要離開。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["伍次長勝園：所以我覺得加開班車的時間點也是可以去檢討的，針對委員剛剛提醒的，我請高鐵公司去好好檢討，不會說這個過了就算了。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝次長。現在再請臺鐵杜董上來一下，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，今天討論的是鐵道安全，剛好上禮拜普悠瑪事故有新的判決，臺鐵跟司機要各負百分之五十的責任。最新的判決說各負百分之五十，現在認定司機有相關責任，但是在一審的判決裡面提到，駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢查員聯絡，發現通訊設備品質不良、人員專業不足，臺鐵內部橫向聯繫、直接指揮系統紊亂，臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈，這是一審判決書提的。二審判決也覺得駕駛員有駕駛員的責任，但是我們只能針對結構性問題討論，一審提到的指揮系統紊亂、橫向聯繫失靈，這部分臺鐵公司有檢討了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有，這個事故發生以後，我們有檢討，然後有改進。"],["黃委員健豪：檢討的結論是什麼？"],["杜董事長微：很多項，包括對於車上ATP的監視、互相聯絡的方式，還有車子阻風泵的改善，我們都有檢討、改善。"],["黃委員健豪：我們當然不希望再發生事故，所以未來臺鐵的駕駛就不用負擔這個風險了，是不是？當時普悠瑪事故發生，是因為沒有人跟駕駛說他到底要怎麼辦，他當然去做了一些動作，所以導致他現在要負百分之五十的責任。臺鐵的駕駛員未來還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險？還是你可以保證未來臺鐵駕駛員開車尋求管制、尋求支援的時候，你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的？"],["杜董事長微：這有兩部分，一般來講，執行列車乘務駕駛有規章制度，他一定要遵守，不像這一次普悠瑪事故，很不幸司機員沒有遵照規章制度。"],["黃委員健豪：他沒遵守，所以現在法院判他百分之五十，另外百分之五十是公司的責任嘛？"],["杜董事長微：對。公司的責任就是第二部分。第二部分，我們現在進行的改善應該算是已經都完成到位了。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你可以保證以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救、求助的時候，不會再發生像這次的事情嗎？"],["杜董事長微：現在我們行控處都有新的SOP，可以給他充分的支援。"],["黃委員健豪：為什麼提到？因為要講到下面這一張，董事長一上來之後，臺鐵的管理層調薪成功，但基層的待遇沒有改變，低薪改善要再等等。我覺得這對基層員工來講，是一個很大的影響，當然你們說，這是為了對標其他的國營事業。但是我們看到，一樣都是國營事業，相對來講，臺鐵的起薪就是比較低，又要負擔這麼大的風險。我們也看到這兩天的新聞，其他國營事業招考的錄取率非常低，臺鐵反而是人數不足，所以這是一連串的結構問題。臺鐵公司現在公司化之後，董事長也調薪了，對這種起薪這麼低、面對的風險這麼高，你要怎麼辦？難道後續重新招考，臺鐵員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎？"],["杜董事長微：國營事業的薪水都是依照規定、規矩來的。的確，臺鐵公司現在的薪水不如其他國營事業，尤其是基層員工，所以現在公司除了確保安全、提升服務以外，還希望能夠招攬更多的客群，以及加上善用資產，其實就是希望能夠增加我們的營業收入。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，最後一句話，因為時間也到了。我也坦誠地說，你們的確應該要增加營業收入，不管後續要調票價或是土地開發，希望資金都能夠回饋到基層員工，不要只有管理層調薪水，基層如果沒調薪水，人就一定不足，人不足大家就想走，走了之後，經驗傳承出現問題，就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題。董事長可以承諾，未來假設不管要調票價或土地開發有收入，這些收入及營收能夠回饋給基層員工嗎？"],["杜董事長微：我們會回饋給基層的員工，而且也會把它投資在安全改善上面。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來邀請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","黃國昌","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","游顥","邱若華","劉建國","林沛祥","葉元之"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股\n份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00002"}}}