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\"一\", \"start\": 367.141, \"end\": 367.261, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 367.261, \"end\": 367.361, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 367.361, \"end\": 367.561, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 367.561, \"end\": 368.142, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 368.142, \"end\": 368.302, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 368.302, \"end\": 368.842, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 368.842, \"end\": 368.982, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 368.982, \"end\": 369.102, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 369.102, \"end\": 369.262, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 369.262, \"end\": 369.362, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 369.362, \"end\": 369.782, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 369.782, \"end\": 369.943, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 369.943, \"end\": 370.063, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 370.063, \"end\": 370.183, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 370.183, \"end\": 370.343, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 370.343, \"end\": 370.503, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 370.503, \"end\": 371.063, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 371.063, \"end\": 371.223, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 371.223, \"end\": 371.383, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 371.383, \"end\": 371.543, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 371.543, \"end\": 371.563, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 372.964, \"end\": 393.361, \"text\": \"我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 372.964, \"end\": 373.264, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 373.264, \"end\": 373.424, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 373.424, \"end\": 374.285, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 374.285, \"end\": 374.425, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 374.425, \"end\": 374.545, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 374.545, \"end\": 374.946, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 374.946, \"end\": 375.386, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 375.386, \"end\": 376.567, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 376.567, \"end\": 376.767, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 376.767, \"end\": 376.927, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 376.927, \"end\": 377.768, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 377.768, \"end\": 378.148, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 378.148, \"end\": 378.269, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 378.269, \"end\": 378.689, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 378.689, \"end\": 379.029, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 379.029, \"end\": 379.209, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 379.209, \"end\": 379.409, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 379.409, \"end\": 380.21, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 380.21, \"end\": 380.37, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 380.37, \"end\": 380.53, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 380.53, \"end\": 380.891, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 380.891, \"end\": 381.031, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 381.031, \"end\": 382.032, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 382.032, \"end\": 382.172, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 382.172, \"end\": 382.352, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 382.352, \"end\": 382.592, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 382.592, \"end\": 383.613, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 383.613, \"end\": 383.773, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 383.773, \"end\": 383.973, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 383.973, \"end\": 384.193, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 384.193, \"end\": 384.594, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 384.594, \"end\": 384.894, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 384.894, \"end\": 385.074, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 385.074, \"end\": 385.234, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 385.234, \"end\": 385.635, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 385.635, \"end\": 385.955, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 385.955, \"end\": 386.595, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 386.595, \"end\": 386.956, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 386.956, \"end\": 387.116, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 387.116, \"end\": 387.296, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 387.296, \"end\": 388.237, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 388.237, \"end\": 388.377, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 388.377, \"end\": 388.757, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 388.757, \"end\": 389.138, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 389.138, \"end\": 389.338, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 389.338, \"end\": 389.698, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"背\", \"start\": 389.698, \"end\": 389.918, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 389.918, \"end\": 390.158, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 390.158, \"end\": 390.959, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"馳\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 390.959, \"end\": 391.059, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 391.059, \"end\": 391.079, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 391.079, \"end\": 391.199, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 391.199, \"end\": 391.359, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 391.359, \"end\": 391.58, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 391.58, \"end\": 391.74, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 391.74, \"end\": 392.34, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 392.34, \"end\": 392.5, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"遷\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 392.5, \"end\": 392.6, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 392.6, \"end\": 392.62, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", 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\"end\": 393.361, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}]}, {\"start\": 399.626, \"end\": 426.984, \"text\": \"碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 399.626, \"end\": 400.046, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 400.046, \"end\": 400.247, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 400.247, \"end\": 400.467, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 400.467, \"end\": 401.527, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 401.527, \"end\": 401.668, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 401.668, \"end\": 402.348, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 402.348, \"end\": 402.588, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 402.588, \"end\": 402.808, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 402.808, \"end\": 402.928, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 402.928, \"end\": 403.028, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 403.028, \"end\": 403.109, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 403.109, \"end\": 403.989, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 403.989, \"end\": 404.149, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 404.149, \"end\": 404.369, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 404.369, \"end\": 404.469, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 404.469, \"end\": 404.61, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 404.61, \"end\": 404.77, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 404.77, \"end\": 405.83, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 405.83, \"end\": 406.07, 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\"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 450.339, \"end\": 450.519, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 450.519, \"end\": 451.54, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 451.54, \"end\": 451.72, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 451.72, \"end\": 451.941, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 451.941, \"end\": 452.481, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 452.481, \"end\": 452.902, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 452.902, \"end\": 454.183, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"抨\"}, {\"word\": \"擊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 454.183, \"end\": 454.804, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 454.804, \"end\": 455.325, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 455.325, \"end\": 455.465, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 455.465, \"end\": 455.725, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 455.725, \"end\": 456.106, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 456.106, \"end\": 456.506, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 456.506, \"end\": 456.666, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 456.666, \"end\": 457.427, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 457.427, \"end\": 457.728, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"郭\", \"start\": 457.728, \"end\": 457.908, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 457.908, \"end\": 458.228, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 458.228, \"end\": 458.388, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 458.388, \"end\": 458.549, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 458.549, \"end\": 459.269, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 459.269, \"end\": 459.99, \"score\": 0.871}, 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{\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 714.902, \"end\": 715.282, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 715.282, \"end\": 715.442, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 715.442, \"end\": 715.502, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 715.502, \"end\": 715.662, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 715.662, \"end\": 715.682, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"涂\", \"start\": 719.237, \"end\": 719.921, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"吉\", \"start\": 719.921, \"end\": 720.142, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 720.142, \"end\": 720.162, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,269 --> 00:00:12,823\n委員發言好,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長請彭部長委員早\n\n2\n00:00:18,644 --> 00:00:39,354\n部長,我請問一下,上個禮拜我們有確定未來5年碳費費率的標準已經確定了嗎?是不是?沒有沒有,就是指現在起徵點的費率那如果2030年以後的費率他是一個建議,並不是說一定要這樣所以我們現在起徵就是以每噸300元?對那針對這個起徵一般的費率每噸300元,部長針對這部分你滿意嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:45,739 --> 00:01:07,177\n這個其實是我必須說環境部很多的工作它都是產業經濟發展跟環團之間的中間所以我也必須說這兩個都不大滿意那某方面也是代表說我們很努力走到一個平衡點那你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎?如果說大家很願意減碳我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率啦\n\n4\n00:01:07,617 --> 00:01:18,448\n如果每一家企業我們也評估過這些企業應該都可以走到優惠費率如果都走到優惠費率的話可以幫我們國家減碳14%就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好\n\n5\n00:01:19,209 --> 00:01:22,171\n報告委員其實我們算的整體而言其實大概對CPI的衝擊是很低\n\n6\n00:01:38,641 --> 00:02:02,464\n而且其實大多數的企業是可以接受的但是我也必須跟委員談成仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業他又是排攤大戶他也積極面臨到這個轉型的困難所以某一些企業的確我們有觀察到這個所謂公正轉型的問題所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業\n\n7\n00:02:03,445 --> 00:02:23,787\n所以我們現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做\n\n8\n00:02:24,508 --> 00:02:33,034\n那對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有完全好像都是受制於經濟部\n\n9\n00:02:34,523 --> 00:02:56,417\n報告委員其實不會的因為我們行政院有一個永續會永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組那我本身也是裡面的這個副召集人所以其實我也在裡面每個月大概每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議所以我們都積極參與各種檢探的工作我們也有一些發言權有一些建議權所以很多的部位的檢探我們\n\n10\n00:02:57,358 --> 00:03:02,122\n所以部長的說法針對這次的碳費草案上路所以你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界各界你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論是不是?\n\n11\n00:03:21,438 --> 00:03:31,063\n我討論但是我也必須說當然對於企業界或是經濟部是希望越低越好能夠初步上路可以更低更低因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講照理來講好像你們針對這部分都討論過那應該有達成一些共識吧\n\n12\n00:03:37,786 --> 00:04:03,423\n其實基本上齁這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁要讓大家完全滿意齁這個是不可能的事情啦我也有充分的那個認知那委員在那邊寫的說不停我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情但是畢竟要收費齁這個要課稅齁收費課稅在任何一個國家都是會被不習慣的被討厭的所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦\n\n13\n00:04:03,703 --> 00:04:15,695\n所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這一部分\n\n14\n00:04:24,650 --> 00:04:42,548\n那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相同圖\n\n15\n00:04:45,191 --> 00:04:45,412\n其實我們看到我國\n\n16\n00:05:00,929 --> 00:05:20,695\n對針對這個碳定價制度在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們瞭解日本韓國中國新加坡印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊\n\n17\n00:05:21,295 --> 00:05:47,031\n然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套\n\n18\n00:05:47,951 --> 00:06:11,563\n包委員其實我們部會在對企業的輔導是一體的在做那碳定價其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題\n\n19\n00:06:12,964 --> 00:06:33,361\n我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論\n\n20\n00:06:39,626 --> 00:07:06,984\n碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度\n\n21\n00:07:09,926 --> 00:07:24,272\n所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界\n\n22\n00:07:25,232 --> 00:07:41,813\n甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表\n\n23\n00:07:42,313 --> 00:08:10,838\n那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心\n\n24\n00:08:11,158 --> 00:08:38,548\n所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排十大污染源請問部長你知道這個十大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎現在我們台灣最大的還是屬於的發電業如果它的排碳量是最多的但是因為排碳量跟污染其實不見得是一致的所以這個還是有一點不一樣\n\n25\n00:08:38,848 --> 00:09:07,916\n所以我們看這個從2023統計前2年的資料來看這10大10大碳排其實幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策\n\n26\n00:09:09,097 --> 00:09:27,511\n假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去\n\n27\n00:09:28,231 --> 00:09:49,815\n是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時期\n\n28\n00:09:49,895 --> 00:10:07,403\n所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊\n\n29\n00:10:08,383 --> 00:10:24,156\n沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的\n\n30\n00:10:25,118 --> 00:10:50,107\n希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的\n\n31\n00:10:53,516 --> 00:11:07,751\n中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施\n\n32\n00:11:09,333 --> 00:11:22,688\n這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮\n\n33\n00:11:26,753 --> 00:11:55,682\n對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝\n\n34\n00:11:59,237 --> 00:12:00,162\n謝謝涂權吉委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t12823\t委員發言好,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長請彭部長委員早\n18644\t39354\t部長,我請問一下,上個禮拜我們有確定未來5年碳費費率的標準已經確定了嗎?是不是?沒有沒有,就是指現在起徵點的費率那如果2030年以後的費率他是一個建議,並不是說一定要這樣所以我們現在起徵就是以每噸300元?對那針對這個起徵一般的費率每噸300元,部長針對這部分你滿意嗎?\n45739\t67177\t這個其實是我必須說環境部很多的工作它都是產業經濟發展跟環團之間的中間所以我也必須說這兩個都不大滿意那某方面也是代表說我們很努力走到一個平衡點那你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎?如果說大家很願意減碳我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率啦\n67617\t78448\t如果每一家企業我們也評估過這些企業應該都可以走到優惠費率如果都走到優惠費率的話可以幫我們國家減碳14%就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好\n79209\t82171\t報告委員其實我們算的整體而言其實大概對CPI的衝擊是很低\n98641\t122464\t而且其實大多數的企業是可以接受的但是我也必須跟委員談成仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業他又是排攤大戶他也積極面臨到這個轉型的困難所以某一些企業的確我們有觀察到這個所謂公正轉型的問題所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業\n123445\t143787\t所以我們現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做\n144508\t153034\t那對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有完全好像都是受制於經濟部\n154523\t176417\t報告委員其實不會的因為我們行政院有一個永續會永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組那我本身也是裡面的這個副召集人所以其實我也在裡面每個月大概每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議所以我們都積極參與各種檢探的工作我們也有一些發言權有一些建議權所以很多的部位的檢探我們\n177358\t182122\t所以部長的說法針對這次的碳費草案上路所以你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界各界你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論是不是?\n201438\t211063\t我討論但是我也必須說當然對於企業界或是經濟部是希望越低越好能夠初步上路可以更低更低因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講照理來講好像你們針對這部分都討論過那應該有達成一些共識吧\n217786\t243423\t其實基本上齁 這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁 要讓大家完全滿意齁 這個是不可能的事情啦 我也有充分的那個認知那委員在那邊寫的說不停 我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情但是畢竟要收費齁 這個要課稅齁 收費課稅在任何一個國家都是會被不習慣的 被討厭的 所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦\n243703\t255695\t所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這一部分\n264650\t282548\t那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會 報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相同圖\n285191\t285412\t其實我們看到我國\n300929\t320695\t對針對這個碳定價制度在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們瞭解日本韓國中國新加坡印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊\n321295\t347031\t然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套\n347951\t371563\t包委員其實我們部會在對企業的輔導是一體的在做那碳定價其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題\n372964\t393361\t我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論\n399626\t426984\t碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度\n429926\t444272\t所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界\n445232\t461813\t甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表\n462313\t490838\t那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心\n491158\t518548\t所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排十大污染源請問部長你知道這個十大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎現在我們台灣最大的還是屬於的發電業如果它的排碳量是最多的但是因為排碳量跟污染其實不見得是一致的所以這個還是有一點不一樣\n518848\t547916\t所以我們看這個從2023統計前2年的資料來看這10大10大碳排其實幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策\n549097\t567511\t假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去\n568231\t589815\t是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時期\n589895\t607403\t所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊\n608383\t624156\t沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的\n625118\t650107\t希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的\n653516\t667751\t中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施\n669333\t682688\t這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮\n686753\t715682\t對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝\n719237\t720162\t謝謝涂權吉委員\n","txt":"委員發言好,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長請彭部長委員早\n部長,我請問一下,上個禮拜我們有確定未來5年碳費費率的標準已經確定了嗎?是不是?沒有沒有,就是指現在起徵點的費率那如果2030年以後的費率他是一個建議,並不是說一定要這樣所以我們現在起徵就是以每噸300元?對那針對這個起徵一般的費率每噸300元,部長針對這部分你滿意嗎?\n這個其實是我必須說環境部很多的工作它都是產業經濟發展跟環團之間的中間所以我也必須說這兩個都不大滿意那某方面也是代表說我們很努力走到一個平衡點那你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎?如果說大家很願意減碳我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率啦\n如果每一家企業我們也評估過這些企業應該都可以走到優惠費率如果都走到優惠費率的話可以幫我們國家減碳14%就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好\n報告委員其實我們算的整體而言其實大概對CPI的衝擊是很低\n而且其實大多數的企業是可以接受的但是我也必須跟委員談成仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業他又是排攤大戶他也積極面臨到這個轉型的困難所以某一些企業的確我們有觀察到這個所謂公正轉型的問題所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業\n所以我們現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做\n那對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有完全好像都是受制於經濟部\n報告委員其實不會的因為我們行政院有一個永續會永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組那我本身也是裡面的這個副召集人所以其實我也在裡面每個月大概每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議所以我們都積極參與各種檢探的工作我們也有一些發言權有一些建議權所以很多的部位的檢探我們\n所以部長的說法針對這次的碳費草案上路所以你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界各界你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論是不是?\n我討論但是我也必須說當然對於企業界或是經濟部是希望越低越好能夠初步上路可以更低更低因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講照理來講好像你們針對這部分都討論過那應該有達成一些共識吧\n其實基本上齁 這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁 要讓大家完全滿意齁 這個是不可能的事情啦 我也有充分的那個認知那委員在那邊寫的說不停 我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情但是畢竟要收費齁 這個要課稅齁 收費課稅在任何一個國家都是會被不習慣的 被討厭的 所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦\n所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這一部分\n那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會 報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相同圖\n其實我們看到我國\n對針對這個碳定價制度在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們瞭解日本韓國中國新加坡印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊\n然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套\n包委員其實我們部會在對企業的輔導是一體的在做那碳定價其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題\n我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論\n碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度\n所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界\n甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表\n那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心\n所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排十大污染源請問部長你知道這個十大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎現在我們台灣最大的還是屬於的發電業如果它的排碳量是最多的但是因為排碳量跟污染其實不見得是一致的所以這個還是有一點不一樣\n所以我們看這個從2023統計前2年的資料來看這10大10大碳排其實幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策\n假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去\n是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時期\n所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊\n沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的\n希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的\n中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施\n這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮\n對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝\n謝謝涂權吉委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:12.823\n委員發言好,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長請彭部長委員早\n\n00:18.644 --> 00:39.354\n部長,我請問一下,上個禮拜我們有確定未來5年碳費費率的標準已經確定了嗎?是不是?沒有沒有,就是指現在起徵點的費率那如果2030年以後的費率他是一個建議,並不是說一定要這樣所以我們現在起徵就是以每噸300元?對那針對這個起徵一般的費率每噸300元,部長針對這部分你滿意嗎?\n\n00:45.739 --> 01:07.177\n這個其實是我必須說環境部很多的工作它都是產業經濟發展跟環團之間的中間所以我也必須說這兩個都不大滿意那某方面也是代表說我們很努力走到一個平衡點那你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎?如果說大家很願意減碳我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率啦\n\n01:07.617 --> 01:18.448\n如果每一家企業我們也評估過這些企業應該都可以走到優惠費率如果都走到優惠費率的話可以幫我們國家減碳14%就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好\n\n01:19.209 --> 01:22.171\n報告委員其實我們算的整體而言其實大概對CPI的衝擊是很低\n\n01:38.641 --> 02:02.464\n而且其實大多數的企業是可以接受的但是我也必須跟委員談成仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業他又是排攤大戶他也積極面臨到這個轉型的困難所以某一些企業的確我們有觀察到這個所謂公正轉型的問題所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業\n\n02:03.445 --> 02:23.787\n所以我們現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做\n\n02:24.508 --> 02:33.034\n那對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有完全好像都是受制於經濟部\n\n02:34.523 --> 02:56.417\n報告委員其實不會的因為我們行政院有一個永續會永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組那我本身也是裡面的這個副召集人所以其實我也在裡面每個月大概每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議所以我們都積極參與各種檢探的工作我們也有一些發言權有一些建議權所以很多的部位的檢探我們\n\n02:57.358 --> 03:02.122\n所以部長的說法針對這次的碳費草案上路所以你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界各界你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論是不是?\n\n03:21.438 --> 03:31.063\n我討論但是我也必須說當然對於企業界或是經濟部是希望越低越好能夠初步上路可以更低更低因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講照理來講好像你們針對這部分都討論過那應該有達成一些共識吧\n\n03:37.786 --> 04:03.423\n其實基本上齁這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁要讓大家完全滿意齁這個是不可能的事情啦我也有充分的那個認知那委員在那邊寫的說不停我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情但是畢竟要收費齁這個要課稅齁收費課稅在任何一個國家都是會被不習慣的被討厭的所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦\n\n04:03.703 --> 04:15.695\n所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這一部分\n\n04:24.650 --> 04:42.548\n那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相同圖\n\n04:45.191 --> 04:45.412\n其實我們看到我國\n\n05:00.929 --> 05:20.695\n對針對這個碳定價制度在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們瞭解日本韓國中國新加坡印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊\n\n05:21.295 --> 05:47.031\n然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套\n\n05:47.951 --> 06:11.563\n包委員其實我們部會在對企業的輔導是一體的在做那碳定價其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題\n\n06:12.964 --> 06:33.361\n我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論\n\n06:39.626 --> 07:06.984\n碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度\n\n07:09.926 --> 07:24.272\n所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界\n\n07:25.232 --> 07:41.813\n甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表\n\n07:42.313 --> 08:10.838\n那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心\n\n08:11.158 --> 08:38.548\n所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排十大污染源請問部長你知道這個十大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎現在我們台灣最大的還是屬於的發電業如果它的排碳量是最多的但是因為排碳量跟污染其實不見得是一致的所以這個還是有一點不一樣\n\n08:38.848 --> 09:07.916\n所以我們看這個從2023統計前2年的資料來看這10大10大碳排其實幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策\n\n09:09.097 --> 09:27.511\n假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去\n\n09:28.231 --> 09:49.815\n是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時期\n\n09:49.895 --> 10:07.403\n所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊\n\n10:08.383 --> 10:24.156\n沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的\n\n10:25.118 --> 10:50.107\n希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的\n\n10:53.516 --> 11:07.751\n中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施\n\n11:09.333 --> 11:22.688\n這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮\n\n11:26.753 --> 11:55.682\n對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝\n\n11:59.237 --> 12:00.162\n謝謝涂權吉委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":12.823,"text":"委員發言好,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長請彭部長委員早"},{"start":18.644,"end":39.354,"text":"部長,我請問一下,上個禮拜我們有確定未來5年碳費費率的標準已經確定了嗎?是不是?沒有沒有,就是指現在起徵點的費率那如果2030年以後的費率他是一個建議,並不是說一定要這樣所以我們現在起徵就是以每噸300元?對那針對這個起徵一般的費率每噸300元,部長針對這部分你滿意嗎?"},{"start":45.739,"end":67.177,"text":"這個其實是我必須說環境部很多的工作它都是產業經濟發展跟環團之間的中間所以我也必須說這兩個都不大滿意那某方面也是代表說我們很努力走到一個平衡點那你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎?如果說大家很願意減碳我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率啦"},{"start":67.617,"end":78.448,"text":"如果每一家企業我們也評估過這些企業應該都可以走到優惠費率如果都走到優惠費率的話可以幫我們國家減碳14%就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好"},{"start":79.209,"end":82.171,"text":"報告委員其實我們算的整體而言其實大概對CPI的衝擊是很低"},{"start":98.641,"end":122.464,"text":"而且其實大多數的企業是可以接受的但是我也必須跟委員談成仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業他又是排攤大戶他也積極面臨到這個轉型的困難所以某一些企業的確我們有觀察到這個所謂公正轉型的問題所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業"},{"start":123.445,"end":143.787,"text":"所以我們現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做"},{"start":144.508,"end":153.034,"text":"那對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有完全好像都是受制於經濟部"},{"start":154.523,"end":176.417,"text":"報告委員其實不會的因為我們行政院有一個永續會永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組那我本身也是裡面的這個副召集人所以其實我也在裡面每個月大概每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議所以我們都積極參與各種檢探的工作我們也有一些發言權有一些建議權所以很多的部位的檢探我們"},{"start":177.358,"end":182.122,"text":"所以部長的說法針對這次的碳費草案上路所以你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界各界你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論是不是?"},{"start":201.438,"end":211.063,"text":"我討論但是我也必須說當然對於企業界或是經濟部是希望越低越好能夠初步上路可以更低更低因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講照理來講好像你們針對這部分都討論過那應該有達成一些共識吧"},{"start":217.786,"end":243.423,"text":"其實基本上齁 這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁 要讓大家完全滿意齁 這個是不可能的事情啦 我也有充分的那個認知那委員在那邊寫的說不停 我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情但是畢竟要收費齁 這個要課稅齁 收費課稅在任何一個國家都是會被不習慣的 被討厭的 所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦"},{"start":243.703,"end":255.695,"text":"所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這一部分"},{"start":264.65,"end":282.548,"text":"那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會 報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相同圖"},{"start":285.191,"end":285.412,"text":"其實我們看到我國"},{"start":300.929,"end":320.695,"text":"對針對這個碳定價制度在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們瞭解日本韓國中國新加坡印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊"},{"start":321.295,"end":347.031,"text":"然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套"},{"start":347.951,"end":371.563,"text":"包委員其實我們部會在對企業的輔導是一體的在做那碳定價其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題"},{"start":372.964,"end":393.361,"text":"我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論"},{"start":399.626,"end":426.984,"text":"碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度"},{"start":429.926,"end":444.272,"text":"所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界"},{"start":445.232,"end":461.813,"text":"甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表"},{"start":462.313,"end":490.838,"text":"那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心"},{"start":491.158,"end":518.548,"text":"所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排十大污染源請問部長你知道這個十大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎現在我們台灣最大的還是屬於的發電業如果它的排碳量是最多的但是因為排碳量跟污染其實不見得是一致的所以這個還是有一點不一樣"},{"start":518.848,"end":547.916,"text":"所以我們看這個從2023統計前2年的資料來看這10大10大碳排其實幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策"},{"start":549.097,"end":567.511,"text":"假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去"},{"start":568.231,"end":589.815,"text":"是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時期"},{"start":589.895,"end":607.403,"text":"所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊"},{"start":608.383,"end":624.156,"text":"沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的"},{"start":625.118,"end":650.107,"text":"希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的"},{"start":653.516,"end":667.751,"text":"中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施"},{"start":669.333,"end":682.688,"text":"這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮"},{"start":686.753,"end":715.682,"text":"對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝"},{"start":719.237,"end":720.162,"text":"謝謝涂權吉委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:59:55 - 11:11:56","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155423,"gazette":{"lineno":642,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時）謝謝主席，請我們彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員早。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我請問一下，上個禮拜我們已經確定未來5年碳費費率的標準了嘛！是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，是指現在起徵點的費率，2030年以後的費率是一個建議，並不是說一定要這樣。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們現在起徵就是每噸300元？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：起徵一般的費率每噸300元，針對這個部分，部長你滿意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實是……我必須說，環境部很多的工作都是在產業經濟發展跟環團的中間，所以我也必須說，這兩個都不大滿意，某方面也是代表說我們很努力走到一個平衡點。"],["涂委員權吉：你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果說大家很願意減碳，我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率，我們也評估過這些企業，應該都可以走到優惠費率。如果都走到優惠費率的話，可以幫我們國家減碳14%，就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好。"],["涂委員權吉：但是徵收碳費之後，真的會像經濟部跟工總公開說明說，可能會面臨企業倒閉、我國產業國際競爭力下降的這些問題、這些後果嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們算的，整體而言大概對CPI的衝擊是很低，而且大多數的企業是可以接受的，但是我也必須跟委員坦承，仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業，它又是排碳大戶，它也積極面臨到轉型的困難，某一些企業的確我們有觀察到所謂公正轉型的問題，所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制，能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業。"],["涂委員權吉：所以現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分，部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳，可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突，只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做，對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策，我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有，完全好像都是受制於經濟部。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實不會的，因為我們行政院有一個永續會，永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組，我本身也是裡面的副召集人，其實我也在裡面，每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議，所以我們都積極參與各種減碳的工作，我們也有一些發言權、有一些建議權，所以很多部會的減碳，我們討論不夠的，副院長就會指示我說跟那個部會能夠來進行協商，所以其實環境部現在跟以前比較不一樣，我們的確會主動的來跟部會來討論，如何減碳更有效率。"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長的說法，針對這次的碳費草案上路，你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界、各界，你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：有討論，但是我也必須說，企業界或是經濟部當然希望越低越好，初步上路可以更低、更低。"],["涂委員權吉：因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講，照理來講，好像你們針對這部分都討論過，那應該有達成一些共識吧？"],["彭部長啓明：其實基本上一個價錢能夠訂出來，要讓大家完全滿意，這個是不可能的事情，我也有充分的認知，那委員簡報寫說「不挺」，我覺得某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情，但是畢竟要收費、課稅，在任何一個國家都是會被不習慣的、被討厭的，所以我必須說，我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定。"],["涂委員權吉：因為我們看到經濟部對外公開的發言，我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部。因為它一直說碳費上路之後，絕對會嚴重影響臺灣產業國際競爭力，針對這一部分，部長，你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部？意思是說如果這個實施的話，對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害。"],["彭部長啓明：不會，報告委員，其實保護環境、保護地球本來就是環境部的工作，所以我的力道當然會大一點；經濟部門是保護產業，這兩個的確會有一點點的相衝突。但是我們認為在某些環節，我必須堅持我的理念，但是我也尊重他們幫產業爭取的理念，所以的確會有一點不一樣，但是我不會有這種被洗臉的感覺啦！"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對碳定價制度，其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的，據我們了解，你看日本、韓國、中國、新加坡、印尼，他們最早從2008年就已經開始訂定，我們到現在才開始實施，經濟部還說競爭力下降，然後針對這一部分，我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾、恐嚇環境部，好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利。其實我倒覺得經濟部在非核家園這個部分沒有完整的配套措施，而且在碳費這個問題上，經濟部針對環境部要實施，好像它也沒有什麼配套。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們部會在對企業的輔導是一體的在做，碳定價其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程，我們已經討論了3、4年才完成這個事情，所以這是一件滿難的事，因為這是一個新的制度。我覺得委員提到的這個，其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面，一直在推動，那委員談到核能的問題，又是另外一個能源署的問題。"],["涂委員權吉：我覺得尤其我們現在執政，應該要有一個同樣的目標、同樣的方向，現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策，經濟部做它的；然後環境部的目標，做環境部的，兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳。所以我想了解在國家氣候變遷對策委員會上，針對碳費這個問題，部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論？"],["彭部長啓明：碳費是在我們行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題，在第1次委員會會議裡面，我有報告說今年一定會上路，至於說我們在這幾個月努力的成果，我應該會在月底的氣候變遷對策委員會跟委員再做一次報告，因為這個事實上是一個里程碑，雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字，但是這個是臺灣的開始，必須還是給予我們這個制度、我們國人、我們國家一個肯定。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們現在擔心的就是，這個委員會應該要達到調和鼎鼐的功能，去協調這些問題，可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來，我們看到的經濟部、企業界，甚至連環團，當然他們的說法不一樣，企業界覺得訂這個太高，環團覺得太低，都來抨擊碳費費率。我們部長是執行秘書，我們郭部長也是委員，環團裡面也有委員代表，不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到充分協調的功能？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們跟郭部長跟……例如說一些部會首長，我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論。但是我也必須說，其實每個部會有它保護的對象、它既定的立場，我們都尊重。討論的過程當中，是對國家有利的，我們都會彼此互相的協調，所以其實衝突倒是沒有那麼大，請委員放心。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我覺得部長，你還是要站在全民的健康還有環境的問題，一定要為我們民眾來把關。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這一部分，我們碳排十大污染源，請問部長你知道十大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：現在我們臺灣最大的還是屬於發電業，它的排碳量是最多的，但是排碳量跟污染其實不見得是一致的，所以這個還是有點不一樣。"],["涂委員權吉：從2023統計前兩年的資料來看，這十大碳排其實幾乎都集中在發電廠，除了台塑、中鋼跟中龍鋼鐵是民營的以外，你看中火跟麥寮發電廠，全世界排名一個28名、一個55名，所以是不是我國的能源比以燃煤、天然氣為主，這個高碳排政策，假設這些我們看得出來它是十大污染源最多的，碳費上路之後，發電廠是最多、最大的污染源，台電一樣火力全開，每年高額的碳費給環境部，不就是台電把這些錢又轉到環境部去，是不是變成這樣子？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不一樣，碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情，一個工廠雖然是這種所謂的燒煤，它用超超臨界或各種的管道，其實還是可以很乾淨的，所以這個是碳排的係數。基本上因為我們國家幾十年來這種產業的政策，累積到現在為止，現在的確也面臨到轉型的時候。"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長，我的意思是說會繳高額碳費，看起來發電廠應該是最多，這些發電廠基本上都是屬於台電，所以我說台電繳碳費，這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢，那還是全民買單啊！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，報告委員，其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府經發局局長稍微有一點搞錯了，最主要像台電發電，自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費，給大家用的那個就不用，所以這個算法是很清楚的。"],["涂委員權吉：希望針對高額的碳費，我們很擔心台電要繳的錢還是全民買單。"],["彭部長啓明：不會，不會。"],["涂委員權吉：碳費的部分，我有看到希望是以專款專用，我建議針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方，還有高碳排的縣市，像現在桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠；臺中的中火是我國最大的火力發電廠。針對這些部分，他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市，我們碳費應該針對這個部分，補助地方做一些減碳的設施。"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會來考量，畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減，要有效率這是最重要的。所以這個部分，例如如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳？當然我必須說這個還有別的用途，要經過溫室氣體審議委員會才能夠來決定，委員的建議我們會考慮。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，我建議專款專用，它發電廠最多，表示基本上它的污染也最多。既然有收碳費，很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的，因為污染也在他們那邊，我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方，多做一些減碳的設施給他們。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個部分有的已經有空污費大量的補助了，我們未來會考量，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長，針對民眾健康的部分，幫我們多參考一下。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂權吉委員發言。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}