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\"end\": 429.419, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 429.419, \"end\": 429.479, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 429.479, \"end\": 429.499, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,935 --> 00:00:05,635\n第一回合很顯然是環境部領先了\n\n2\n00:00:20,620 --> 00:00:25,922\n我們比較好奇的地方就是你看我們目前為止大概做到300雖然我必須要強調經濟部還有環團都不太滿意但是呢你特別規劃到5年之後可能要從300拉到3000但我的重點是你目前碳費的徵收的對象竟涵蓋全國的50%的排放量\n\n3\n00:00:50,373 --> 00:01:10,616\n所以你這樣有辦法達到你明顯減碳的成效嗎?部長報委員其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率不要繳那麼多錢的話五十一百對那那個是有效的14%我們是鼓勵而且我們也其實看了這些企業的這個業績報告他們大概都可以符合優惠費率但是我也看了報告我還是要特別強調你看以我們剛剛很多委員\n\n4\n00:01:11,477 --> 00:01:11,757\n李慧琼\n\n5\n00:01:31,115 --> 00:01:31,395\n高排碳\n\n6\n00:02:00,743 --> 00:02:30,050\n高污染高碳費那我又沒辦法保證你看我們的排放量是佔全國的20%喔光是我們所有的企業要繳交110億元喔那你到底有多少比例你可以回饋到我們地方部長我要求的是有多少比例你起碼要告訴我們一下否則你永遠告訴我明年明年沒有那麼多明年報告委員那個碳費後年年中才可能會進帳所以我們現在提的好那你你現在後年但是大家要插雷彈那你告訴我多少比例可以回饋到地方\n\n7\n00:02:30,530 --> 00:02:34,976\n這就是為什麼你們剛剛公布裡面300說大家都想要看到細節然後你永遠告訴我們拋出一個300然後呢後面到什麼我們再看這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間大家認為永續非常重要你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家的\n\n8\n00:02:48,334 --> 00:02:53,437\n我會讓那個部長跟這個署長有機會,包括我已經特別提到了,你的碳鏈殘,很多人藉機來開課,你的碳認證,因為我們不知道我們這個上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證,還有碳洩漏,我認為應該改名叫碳破口會比較好,進口的產品沒有得,不需要去繳納,而且你告訴我2025年你有台版的CPAP,台匯上路,\n\n9\n00:03:12,587 --> 00:03:18,512\n這些都是目前為止我們所看到你因為碳費而引發的社會上的一個所謂的混亂\n\n10\n00:03:19,318 --> 00:03:43,374\n報告委員這個碳費的制度從好幾年前討論我們過去討論到現在為止其實它是一個非常有漏洞的不好的制度我必須說我從民間來碳交易才是一個比較好的制度但是我必須說我延續政策我還是把它完成了但是我們未來會走到總量管制的碳交易這些你說的問題就可以減少很多你有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎\n\n11\n00:03:43,874 --> 00:04:05,844\n我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套既然你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了\n\n12\n00:04:09,346 --> 00:04:17,592\n光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人想說怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個\n\n13\n00:04:35,606 --> 00:04:41,850\n所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓,\n\n14\n00:04:57,419 --> 00:05:07,407\n當然這個都有留待空間,最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的,這就是我們目前為止,所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎?這是傳統產業。\n\n15\n00:05:10,919 --> 00:05:23,647\n包委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來\n\n16\n00:05:31,092 --> 00:05:48,601\n所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是\n\n17\n00:05:49,201 --> 00:05:49,561\n我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有\n\n18\n00:06:16,289 --> 00:06:24,655\n請委員放心,我們CPI的算法跟你的數字不大一樣你這個細節有沒有嗎?公布到這部分,我也看了這個細節你還是沒有辦法解除我這樣的一個疑慮啊還是沒有辦法啊,包括剛剛委員在問你所有的問題的時候部長,對不起,你雖然認為說你做得還不錯,對你的表現還蠻滿意但是呢,我們還是覺得對很多你剛剛所成立的專業委員會專業的這個部分裡面,你都還是告訴我那是未來式,我們要的是從現在\n\n19\n00:06:43,769 --> 00:07:08,639\n報告委員,西貝明年年中才會開始生效,然後我們是預先的要探深報,比照歐盟的敬禮,我沒有落後,我是照那個方式在進行的。對,我剛剛只問你說,剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分,包括我說你對於我們地方,高溫暖的地方,你的整個分配的比例等等之類的,我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後,我們可以進一步的了解,而不是等到明年,所以我們大家覺得說,\n\n20\n00:07:09,099 --> 00:07:09,499\n謝謝柯志恩委員的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4935\t5635\t第一回合很顯然是環境部領先了\n20620\t25922\t我們比較好奇的地方就是你看我們目前為止大概做到300雖然我必須要強調經濟部還有環團都不太滿意但是呢你特別規劃到5年之後可能要從300拉到3000但我的重點是你目前碳費的徵收的對象竟涵蓋全國的50%的排放量\n50373\t70616\t所以你這樣有辦法達到你明顯減碳的成效嗎?部長報委員其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率不要繳那麼多錢的話五十一百對那那個是有效的14%我們是鼓勵而且我們也其實看了這些企業的這個業績報告他們大概都可以符合優惠費率但是我也看了報告我還是要特別強調你看以我們剛剛很多委員\n71477\t71757\t李慧琼\n91115\t91395\t高排碳\n120743\t150050\t高污染高碳費那我又沒辦法保證你看我們的排放量是佔全國的20%喔光是我們所有的企業要繳交110億元喔那你到底有多少比例你可以回饋到我們地方部長我要求的是有多少比例你起碼要告訴我們一下否則你永遠告訴我明年明年沒有那麼多明年報告委員那個碳費後年年中才可能會進帳所以我們現在提的好那你你現在後年但是大家要插雷彈那你告訴我多少比例可以回饋到地方\n150530\t154976\t這就是為什麼你們剛剛公布裡面300說大家都想要看到細節然後你永遠告訴我們拋出一個300然後呢後面到什麼我們再看這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間大家認為永續非常重要你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家的\n168334\t173437\t我會讓那個部長跟這個署長有機會,包括我已經特別提到了,你的碳鏈殘,很多人藉機來開課,你的碳認證,因為我們不知道我們這個上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證,還有碳洩漏,我認為應該改名叫碳破口會比較好,進口的產品沒有得,不需要去繳納,而且你告訴我2025年你有台版的CPAP,台匯上路,\n192587\t198512\t這些都是目前為止我們所看到你因為碳費而引發的社會上的一個所謂的混亂\n199318\t223374\t報告委員 這個碳費的制度從好幾年前討論我們過去討論到現在為止其實它是一個非常有漏洞的不好的制度我必須說我從民間來 碳交易才是一個比較好的制度但是我必須說我延續政策我還是把它完成了但是我們未來會走到總量管制的碳交易這些你說的問題就可以減少很多你有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎\n223874\t245844\t我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套既然你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了\n249346\t257592\t光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人想說怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個\n275606\t281850\t所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓,\n297419\t307407\t當然這個都有留待空間,最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的,這就是我們目前為止,所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎?這是傳統產業。\n310919\t323647\t包委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來\n331092\t348601\t所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是\n349201\t349561\t我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有\n376289\t384655\t請委員放心,我們CPI的算法跟你的數字不大一樣你這個細節有沒有嗎?公布到這部分,我也看了這個細節你還是沒有辦法解除我這樣的一個疑慮啊還是沒有辦法啊,包括剛剛委員在問你所有的問題的時候部長,對不起,你雖然認為說你做得還不錯,對你的表現還蠻滿意但是呢,我們還是覺得對很多你剛剛所成立的專業委員會專業的這個部分裡面,你都還是告訴我那是未來式,我們要的是從現在\n403769\t428639\t報告委員,西貝明年年中才會開始生效,然後我們是預先的要探深報,比照歐盟的敬禮,我沒有落後,我是照那個方式在進行的。對,我剛剛只問你說,剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分,包括我說你對於我們地方,高溫暖的地方,你的整個分配的比例等等之類的,我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後,我們可以進一步的了解,而不是等到明年,所以我們大家覺得說,\n429099\t429499\t謝謝柯志恩委員的發言\n","txt":"第一回合很顯然是環境部領先了\n我們比較好奇的地方就是你看我們目前為止大概做到300雖然我必須要強調經濟部還有環團都不太滿意但是呢你特別規劃到5年之後可能要從300拉到3000但我的重點是你目前碳費的徵收的對象竟涵蓋全國的50%的排放量\n所以你這樣有辦法達到你明顯減碳的成效嗎?部長報委員其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率不要繳那麼多錢的話五十一百對那那個是有效的14%我們是鼓勵而且我們也其實看了這些企業的這個業績報告他們大概都可以符合優惠費率但是我也看了報告我還是要特別強調你看以我們剛剛很多委員\n李慧琼\n高排碳\n高污染高碳費那我又沒辦法保證你看我們的排放量是佔全國的20%喔光是我們所有的企業要繳交110億元喔那你到底有多少比例你可以回饋到我們地方部長我要求的是有多少比例你起碼要告訴我們一下否則你永遠告訴我明年明年沒有那麼多明年報告委員那個碳費後年年中才可能會進帳所以我們現在提的好那你你現在後年但是大家要插雷彈那你告訴我多少比例可以回饋到地方\n這就是為什麼你們剛剛公布裡面300說大家都想要看到細節然後你永遠告訴我們拋出一個300然後呢後面到什麼我們再看這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間大家認為永續非常重要你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家的\n我會讓那個部長跟這個署長有機會,包括我已經特別提到了,你的碳鏈殘,很多人藉機來開課,你的碳認證,因為我們不知道我們這個上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證,還有碳洩漏,我認為應該改名叫碳破口會比較好,進口的產品沒有得,不需要去繳納,而且你告訴我2025年你有台版的CPAP,台匯上路,\n這些都是目前為止我們所看到你因為碳費而引發的社會上的一個所謂的混亂\n報告委員 這個碳費的制度從好幾年前討論我們過去討論到現在為止其實它是一個非常有漏洞的不好的制度我必須說我從民間來 碳交易才是一個比較好的制度但是我必須說我延續政策我還是把它完成了但是我們未來會走到總量管制的碳交易這些你說的問題就可以減少很多你有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎\n我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套既然你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了\n光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人想說怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個\n所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓,\n當然這個都有留待空間,最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的,這就是我們目前為止,所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎?這是傳統產業。\n包委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來\n所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是\n我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有\n請委員放心,我們CPI的算法跟你的數字不大一樣你這個細節有沒有嗎?公布到這部分,我也看了這個細節你還是沒有辦法解除我這樣的一個疑慮啊還是沒有辦法啊,包括剛剛委員在問你所有的問題的時候部長,對不起,你雖然認為說你做得還不錯,對你的表現還蠻滿意但是呢,我們還是覺得對很多你剛剛所成立的專業委員會專業的這個部分裡面,你都還是告訴我那是未來式,我們要的是從現在\n報告委員,西貝明年年中才會開始生效,然後我們是預先的要探深報,比照歐盟的敬禮,我沒有落後,我是照那個方式在進行的。對,我剛剛只問你說,剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分,包括我說你對於我們地方,高溫暖的地方,你的整個分配的比例等等之類的,我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後,我們可以進一步的了解,而不是等到明年,所以我們大家覺得說,\n謝謝柯志恩委員的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.935 --> 00:05.635\n第一回合很顯然是環境部領先了\n\n00:20.620 --> 00:25.922\n我們比較好奇的地方就是你看我們目前為止大概做到300雖然我必須要強調經濟部還有環團都不太滿意但是呢你特別規劃到5年之後可能要從300拉到3000但我的重點是你目前碳費的徵收的對象竟涵蓋全國的50%的排放量\n\n00:50.373 --> 01:10.616\n所以你這樣有辦法達到你明顯減碳的成效嗎?部長報委員其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率不要繳那麼多錢的話五十一百對那那個是有效的14%我們是鼓勵而且我們也其實看了這些企業的這個業績報告他們大概都可以符合優惠費率但是我也看了報告我還是要特別強調你看以我們剛剛很多委員\n\n01:11.477 --> 01:11.757\n李慧琼\n\n01:31.115 --> 01:31.395\n高排碳\n\n02:00.743 --> 02:30.050\n高污染高碳費那我又沒辦法保證你看我們的排放量是佔全國的20%喔光是我們所有的企業要繳交110億元喔那你到底有多少比例你可以回饋到我們地方部長我要求的是有多少比例你起碼要告訴我們一下否則你永遠告訴我明年明年沒有那麼多明年報告委員那個碳費後年年中才可能會進帳所以我們現在提的好那你你現在後年但是大家要插雷彈那你告訴我多少比例可以回饋到地方\n\n02:30.530 --> 02:34.976\n這就是為什麼你們剛剛公布裡面300說大家都想要看到細節然後你永遠告訴我們拋出一個300然後呢後面到什麼我們再看這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間大家認為永續非常重要你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家的\n\n02:48.334 --> 02:53.437\n我會讓那個部長跟這個署長有機會,包括我已經特別提到了,你的碳鏈殘,很多人藉機來開課,你的碳認證,因為我們不知道我們這個上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證,還有碳洩漏,我認為應該改名叫碳破口會比較好,進口的產品沒有得,不需要去繳納,而且你告訴我2025年你有台版的CPAP,台匯上路,\n\n03:12.587 --> 03:18.512\n這些都是目前為止我們所看到你因為碳費而引發的社會上的一個所謂的混亂\n\n03:19.318 --> 03:43.374\n報告委員這個碳費的制度從好幾年前討論我們過去討論到現在為止其實它是一個非常有漏洞的不好的制度我必須說我從民間來碳交易才是一個比較好的制度但是我必須說我延續政策我還是把它完成了但是我們未來會走到總量管制的碳交易這些你說的問題就可以減少很多你有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎\n\n03:43.874 --> 04:05.844\n我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套既然你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了\n\n04:09.346 --> 04:17.592\n光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人想說怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個\n\n04:35.606 --> 04:41.850\n所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓,\n\n04:57.419 --> 05:07.407\n當然這個都有留待空間,最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的,這就是我們目前為止,所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎?這是傳統產業。\n\n05:10.919 --> 05:23.647\n包委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來\n\n05:31.092 --> 05:48.601\n所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是\n\n05:49.201 --> 05:49.561\n我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有\n\n06:16.289 --> 06:24.655\n請委員放心,我們CPI的算法跟你的數字不大一樣你這個細節有沒有嗎?公布到這部分,我也看了這個細節你還是沒有辦法解除我這樣的一個疑慮啊還是沒有辦法啊,包括剛剛委員在問你所有的問題的時候部長,對不起,你雖然認為說你做得還不錯,對你的表現還蠻滿意但是呢,我們還是覺得對很多你剛剛所成立的專業委員會專業的這個部分裡面,你都還是告訴我那是未來式,我們要的是從現在\n\n06:43.769 --> 07:08.639\n報告委員,西貝明年年中才會開始生效,然後我們是預先的要探深報,比照歐盟的敬禮,我沒有落後,我是照那個方式在進行的。對,我剛剛只問你說,剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分,包括我說你對於我們地方,高溫暖的地方,你的整個分配的比例等等之類的,我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後,我們可以進一步的了解,而不是等到明年,所以我們大家覺得說,\n\n07:09.099 --> 07:09.499\n謝謝柯志恩委員的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.935,"end":5.635,"text":"第一回合很顯然是環境部領先了"},{"start":20.62,"end":25.922,"text":"我們比較好奇的地方就是你看我們目前為止大概做到300雖然我必須要強調經濟部還有環團都不太滿意但是呢你特別規劃到5年之後可能要從300拉到3000但我的重點是你目前碳費的徵收的對象竟涵蓋全國的50%的排放量"},{"start":50.373,"end":70.616,"text":"所以你這樣有辦法達到你明顯減碳的成效嗎?部長報委員其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率不要繳那麼多錢的話五十一百對那那個是有效的14%我們是鼓勵而且我們也其實看了這些企業的這個業績報告他們大概都可以符合優惠費率但是我也看了報告我還是要特別強調你看以我們剛剛很多委員"},{"start":71.477,"end":71.757,"text":"李慧琼"},{"start":91.115,"end":91.395,"text":"高排碳"},{"start":120.743,"end":150.05,"text":"高污染高碳費那我又沒辦法保證你看我們的排放量是佔全國的20%喔光是我們所有的企業要繳交110億元喔那你到底有多少比例你可以回饋到我們地方部長我要求的是有多少比例你起碼要告訴我們一下否則你永遠告訴我明年明年沒有那麼多明年報告委員那個碳費後年年中才可能會進帳所以我們現在提的好那你你現在後年但是大家要插雷彈那你告訴我多少比例可以回饋到地方"},{"start":150.53,"end":154.976,"text":"這就是為什麼你們剛剛公布裡面300說大家都想要看到細節然後你永遠告訴我們拋出一個300然後呢後面到什麼我們再看這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間大家認為永續非常重要你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家的"},{"start":168.334,"end":173.437,"text":"我會讓那個部長跟這個署長有機會,包括我已經特別提到了,你的碳鏈殘,很多人藉機來開課,你的碳認證,因為我們不知道我們這個上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證,還有碳洩漏,我認為應該改名叫碳破口會比較好,進口的產品沒有得,不需要去繳納,而且你告訴我2025年你有台版的CPAP,台匯上路,"},{"start":192.587,"end":198.512,"text":"這些都是目前為止我們所看到你因為碳費而引發的社會上的一個所謂的混亂"},{"start":199.318,"end":223.374,"text":"報告委員 這個碳費的制度從好幾年前討論我們過去討論到現在為止其實它是一個非常有漏洞的不好的制度我必須說我從民間來 碳交易才是一個比較好的制度但是我必須說我延續政策我還是把它完成了但是我們未來會走到總量管制的碳交易這些你說的問題就可以減少很多你有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎"},{"start":223.874,"end":245.844,"text":"我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套既然你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了"},{"start":249.346,"end":257.592,"text":"光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人想說怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個"},{"start":275.606,"end":281.85,"text":"所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓,"},{"start":297.419,"end":307.407,"text":"當然這個都有留待空間,最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的,這就是我們目前為止,所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎?這是傳統產業。"},{"start":310.919,"end":323.647,"text":"包委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來"},{"start":331.092,"end":348.601,"text":"所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是"},{"start":349.201,"end":349.561,"text":"我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有"},{"start":376.289,"end":384.655,"text":"請委員放心,我們CPI的算法跟你的數字不大一樣你這個細節有沒有嗎?公布到這部分,我也看了這個細節你還是沒有辦法解除我這樣的一個疑慮啊還是沒有辦法啊,包括剛剛委員在問你所有的問題的時候部長,對不起,你雖然認為說你做得還不錯,對你的表現還蠻滿意但是呢,我們還是覺得對很多你剛剛所成立的專業委員會專業的這個部分裡面,你都還是告訴我那是未來式,我們要的是從現在"},{"start":403.769,"end":428.639,"text":"報告委員,西貝明年年中才會開始生效,然後我們是預先的要探深報,比照歐盟的敬禮,我沒有落後,我是照那個方式在進行的。對,我剛剛只問你說,剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分,包括我說你對於我們地方,高溫暖的地方,你的整個分配的比例等等之類的,我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後,我們可以進一步的了解,而不是等到明年,所以我們大家覺得說,"},{"start":429.099,"end":429.499,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員的發言"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:23:59 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11:31:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155427,"gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（11時24分）謝謝主席，我們請部長還有我們經濟部的代表。"],["主席：請部長、請楊署長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長跟署長好。我想這一次的碳費費率拉鋸戰，第一回合很顯然是環境部領先啦。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["柯委員志恩：大家看起來是這個樣子啦，否則你看經濟部，那一天問到經濟部長，他除了深表遺憾之外，也大概答不出什麼樣的話來。我們比較好奇的地方就是，我們目前為止大概做到300元，雖然我必須要強調，經濟部還有環團都不太滿意，但是你特別規劃到五年之後，可能要從300元拉到3,000元。我的重點是，目前碳費的徵收對象僅涵蓋全國50%的排放量，這樣有辦法達到明顯減碳成效嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率，不要繳那麼多錢的話……"],["柯委員志恩：對，50、100。"],["彭部長啓明：那那個是有效的，14%，我們是鼓勵，而且我們也看了這些企業的ESG報告，他們大概都可以符合優惠費率。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我也看了報告，我還是要特別強調，你看剛剛很多委員都問到這個問題，2026年你拿到60億，到底你要怎麼樣來做分配？可是我看看你的回應都是說，我們會有一個專門的委員會，有一些施行的細則在討論。對我們來說，我們問同樣的問題，同樣關切的問題，可是你的回應都好像要拖到明年才有辦法解決，包括大家所告知的綠色的環境部的小金庫，你當然不同意這是一個綠色……國發基金100億，還有另外3個所謂的基金，但是我還是要強調，在這個部分裡面，你永遠告訴我是明年才有，包括大家非常關切的一些方式，我為什麼要特別提出來？你看看，到底你有沒有辦法保障高污染的地方可以得到一個適度的分配？以高雄為例，它就是三高：高排碳、高污染、高碳費，那我們有沒有辦法保證？你看，我們的碳排量是占全國的20%，光是我們所有企業要繳交的碳費就有110億元，到底有多少比例可以回饋到我們地方？部長，我要求的是有多少比例，你起碼要告訴我們一下，否則你永遠告訴我明年、明年，沒有那麼多明年。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳費後年年中才可能會進帳，所以我們現在提的……"],["柯委員志恩：好，你現在說後年，但是大家都剉咧等，那你告訴我有多少比例可以回饋到地方？"],["彭部長啓明：這個現在我沒有辦法給委員答復。"],["柯委員志恩：是啊！這就是為什麼你們公布300元的時候，大家都想要看到細節，然後你永遠告訴我們，拋出一個300元，然後後面到什麼，我們再看。這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間……大家認為永續非常重要，你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員……"],["柯委員志恩：更不要說……我會讓部長跟署長有機會回答。包括我已經特別提到的碳斂財，很多人藉機來開課；而碳認證，我們不知道上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證；還有碳洩漏，我認為應該改名叫做碳破口會比較好，因為進口的產品不需要繳納。而且你告訴我，2025年臺版的CBAM才會上路，這些都是目前為止我們所看到因為碳費而引發社會上的混亂。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳費制度從好幾年前就在討論，我們過去討論到現在為止……"],["柯委員志恩：是啊！"],["彭部長啓明：其實它是一個非常有漏洞的、不好的制度，我必須說我從民間來，碳交易才是一個比較好的制度，但是我必須說我延續政策，我還是把它完成了，但是我們未來會走到總量管制的碳交易，你說的這些問題就可以減少很多。"],["柯委員志恩：你有辦法保證2025年我們臺版的CBAM就有辦法上路嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報，所以基本上，因為CBAM，事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概，要試行申報，明年年中它的細節才會出來。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你就告訴我明（2025）年上半年你就可以……所以我覺得每一個政策講出來，我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到，包括你的配套。接下來你可以看一下，你看碳費，大家已經講了非常多，光是電力跟燃氣供應業，大概真的占57.1%，當然也會影響到電子產業。你看台電跟中油，光是繳碳費就要分別繳15億跟19億，難怪每個人都會怕……經濟部的代表、署長可能都要特別提到，很多人怕它會轉嫁到消費者。台電可以比照水費的方法代收，中油可以把碳費放在計算公式裡，所以你看看，然後最重要的是，你讓我們的傳統產業……這個經濟部應該很有話講，你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛，因為石化跟鋼鐵傳統產業沒有受到貿易的保護，而且進口的部分是不用負擔碳費，所以對於我們國內的產業來說是非常不公平的！而且我們臺灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓，當然這個有留待討論，最重要的是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的，這就是我們目前為止……經濟部難道不怕這些石化、鋼鐵業紛紛走向國外嗎？這是傳統產業。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實你說的數據15億、19億，如果它按照企業的自主減碳計畫，它不用繳那麼多，大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右。"],["柯委員志恩：我要特別提出來，你的自主……你去看一下數據，興達電廠自主減的結果之後，碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98%，你可以看得出來，所以到底有沒有到達這個效果？看一下數據。我最後要特別提到，因為時間的關係。你看，這對經濟跟物價有沒有造成一些衝擊？最重要的是，你看一下這個數據裡面，GDP減損的這個層面，都是我們預先，也是透過經濟部算出來的。最重要的是，為什麼經濟部會有一些想法？就是他們很怕石化、水泥、鋼鐵等會淪為脆弱的產業，這些實在是……到目前為止，大家才會認為環境部跟經濟部在這個過程當中，你們跨部會的協調，如果沒有配套共同來幫我們宣告的話，永遠都告訴我：我們明年、我們還會有更細節等等，你就會在還沒有出來之前有太多太多的謠言、太多太多的破口。"],["彭部長啓明：對，所以我們有一本這個，細節在裡面全部都有，所以請委員放心，我們CPI的算法跟你的數字不大一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：你這個細節有沒有公布？我也看了這個細節，但你還是沒有辦法解除我這樣一個疑慮，還是沒有辦法啊！包括剛剛委員在問你所有問題的時候，部長，對不起，你雖然認為你做得還不錯、對你的表現還算滿意，但是對於你剛剛提到成立的專業委員會的專業這個部分，你都還是告訴我，那是未來式，但我們要的是從現在……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，CBAM明年年中才會開始生效，我們是預先要碳申報，比照歐盟的淨零，我沒有落後，我是照那個方式在進行的。"],["柯委員志恩：我剛剛只問你，剛剛我所涵蓋的這個部分，包括我說對於高污染地方整個分配比例等等之類的，我們起碼知道你提出300這個數字之後，我們可以進一步的了解，而不是等到明年。所以我們大家覺得，以高雄來說，我們所有產業都「剉咧等」，因為我們不知道最後會不會回饋給地方啊，這才是我要問的。所以說一個配套出來，那個配套整個細節層面，你要廣為大家所知，這樣對你的施政，我給予肯定，但是我們覺得這個部分對你在推行政策上面才不會造成那麼大的困擾，還有那麼多人來問你相同的問題，卻得不到解答，這才是我今天質詢最大的目的。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯志恩委員的發言。","接下來請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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