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00:01:02,613\n那市政府也初步這個他們的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案那我想請問次長這件事情什麼時候可以定案也就是說臺中市的交通局給你一個正向的答案但是這個答案我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親跟海線的鄉親報告說\n\n4\n00:01:05,404 --> 00:01:31,000\n這件事情延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃的海線有希望捷運可以到了來所以我跟委員報告齁上禮拜我召開這個會議他們是他們交通局的副局長過來那我們也跟他提到說這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意這個需求希望能夠延伸這樣才算是比較完整對沒錯\n\n5\n00:01:31,380 --> 00:01:51,610\n已經到那邊到清水其實短短的幾公里而已我們一直跟他這樣做一個建議但是其實是在地方事務所以我們跟他講說沒關係這個時候如果你要做一個研究我們跟他講說其實可以做一個研究那這個可信性研究那個費用部分交通部會全力來支持沒錯這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的\n\n6\n00:01:52,050 --> 00:01:55,212\n我的意思就是說我希望在今年的12月底之前我要看到市政府的申請\n\n7\n00:02:19,795 --> 00:02:20,556\n時間就是在走嘛\n\n8\n00:02:43,855 --> 00:03:02,853\n你沒那麼快你可言我錢都要給你市政府你連申請的公文都不上來申請這條可言你市政府跟我講說你態度上想要延伸局限想要照我的意見延伸到清水那你這不是說謊話嗎這不是擺明的就是擺爛嗎\n\n9\n00:03:04,875 --> 00:03:26,424\n市長我不希望浪費時間,所以如果到今年年底市政府申請中央要補助他,錢都可以存好,他還不可以走,你一定要讓本席知道,可以嗎?是,可以,沒問題。好,OK。那個今天啊,這個謝謝昭緯啊,特別安排啊,這個台鐵公司啊,這個安全的問題啊,這個本席啊,認真把它研究,其實台鐵齁,這個\n\n10\n00:03:29,492 --> 00:03:40,405\n在談那些漲價我也跟杜董事長溝通過服務品質跟安全是旅客對台鐵公司的要求所以如果大家把安全跟品質做好\n\n11\n00:03:41,209 --> 00:04:00,342\n要談漲價消費者接受的程度會比較高如果這個事情特別是安全都沒有做好你要跟人家談漲價有時候民眾這個接受程度很低那我看了一下那個我不知道董事長你們提這個臺鐵5年的安全提升方案\n\n12\n00:04:01,303 --> 00:04:27,837\n董事長這是應該是在你任內這個是你提的嘛從一百一百一十三年到一百一十七年啊這個五年安全提升方案是嗎這是我們公司的政策對那我看了一下你這個這個方案齁總共叫五年啊那這五年的方案從一百一十三年開始到一百一十三年還沒有結束但我把你一到八月你們現在有的資料我看了一下齁這個\n\n13\n00:04:31,336 --> 00:04:51,266\n台鐵公司你們的五年提升法案的113年要求要比112年這個一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數要降低20%但是我把它看了一下113年看起來不但不會降低還會比112年升高\n\n14\n00:04:54,687 --> 00:05:15,122\n董事長你有沒有發現時間還沒有到但我跟你估算一下因為你的發生事故每一個月的平均值其實都相當平均啦所以換言之我已經現在已經十月了剩下差不多三個月我跟你統計一下你今年不但不會降低你的報告是說今年開始要降低20%喔\n\n15\n00:05:16,423 --> 00:05:45,459\n第一年就要降低百分之二十但是現在來檢驗你的報告的第一年不但不會降低還會升高欸董事長你有沒有發現這個問題是對阿什麼原因跟委員報告齁這個我們我們這個就是今年齁可能會無法達標這件事情齁大概有幾個因素啦齁第一個就是我們這個事故事件齁我們的統計齁我們是綜合可控跟不可控因素全部都在裡面\n\n16\n00:05:46,159 --> 00:06:07,988\n今年老實講第一個最大的原因是今年的天災比較多一點所以我們整體的成績就變成建樹也往上拉第二個也不諱言就是我們現在老舊車輛這一部分我們去努力的還不夠所以這個也是有增加第三部分\n\n17\n00:06:08,948 --> 00:06:25,848\n就是我們因為要建立我們公司的安全文化所以我們以往在112年以前我們沒有列進來說它是算一個事故或是一個事件的這種這種情形我們在今年我們都把它列進來\n\n18\n00:06:26,749 --> 00:06:27,189\n董事長,如果要這樣\n\n19\n00:06:51,341 --> 00:07:11,913\n你現在告訴我三個主要原因一個就是天災一個就是車子老舊第三個就是過去的指標太籠統現在用嚴謹的標準所以看起來你的比例就上升了那如果你要這樣做拜託一下啦這種五年安全提升方案你就重做啦\n\n20\n00:07:12,898 --> 00:07:22,208\n那個楊局長應該要監督你嘛這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你對不對阿你叫楊局長怎麼監督啦\n\n21\n00:07:23,834 --> 00:07:49,802\n就是說你五年改善計畫的第一年都已經不但沒有下降一般是說我們目標20啦結果天災啦什麼所以我只下降10%很抱歉你現在不是你現在是沒有下降還是上升而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉啦上升30%以上都跑不掉那你覺得不可控的因素叫天災那你應該把天災分出來嘛\n\n22\n00:07:50,984 --> 00:08:14,718\n不然如果我做一個立法院我怎麼監督你我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你那個運安會在這裡他怎麼監督啊我按照你自己寫的標準都做不到還上升但是你現在跟我解釋說因為很多天災你天災你本來就應該要排除你要告訴我監督者或是你告訴鐵道局說那個天災放在這一邊\n\n23\n00:08:15,851 --> 00:08:23,933\n但是我其他人委的放這一邊所以鐵道局可以監督你立法院可以監督你代表消費者你的安全啊\n\n24\n00:08:24,901 --> 00:08:46,846\n我要求就這個嘛是是董事長這個不過分嘛是是齁市長可以嗎可以這沒問題這個至少你的方案我要看到新的你的五年安全提升的方案這你自己寫的第一年的出包啊現在在談安全這個這個大家可能在立法院站在監督者的角色我是不大能夠接受這就出現這個狀況嘛\n\n25\n00:08:48,802 --> 00:09:13,154\n局長應該今年看起來如果到12月給你的報告你也是看不下去了對不對應該是很難達標對我也知道很難達標所以後面這幾年你要告訴我所以114年可以達標我也很懷疑所以這個應該局長市長重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的你就要做實事你就紮紮實實的去做\n\n26\n00:09:15,307 --> 00:09:40,896\n有一個KPI有一個指標我們可以監督你你也可以跟同仁大家一起來努力把這個指標達成不要都做假的啦就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案什麼方案什麼方案結果最後都是做假的這根本就做不到了好那另外你說老舊我看了一下今年的預算你們要把那個像那個台鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫本來113年就應該要完成了\n\n27\n00:09:44,810 --> 00:10:13,789\n看起來你們今天的預算要把它延到116年對不對是阿為什麼會113年該買完該貸換完的這個車輛要拖到116年為什麼這因為主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情齁這個車輛製造廠商齁他沒有辦法如期的把車子交給我們好所以確定是這樣子啦齁不是我們的行政效率很差啦齁不是是交貨廠商的問題阿這個有沒有罰則\n\n28\n00:10:16,019 --> 00:10:44,085\n這個就是也是要看他的真正的原因的我覺得台鐵公司的權益你們要去捍衛啦好不好因為他的供應鏈什麼都有受到影響對113年就要買鎖了到現在還要主席已經站起來了啦其實我對安全喔你說那個明日號的車廂少掛一截我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋我實在是不大能夠接受次長這個通報系統也要知道啦\n\n29\n00:10:45,686 --> 00:11:13,508\n少一節車廂沒多餒次長這個你們至少交通部應該有對於下屬所有從航空陸地到海洋從平路到軌道重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛你們才會知道而且更何況今天要來立法院還是題目叫做臺鐵的安全欸\n\n30\n00:11:15,052 --> 00:11:33,267\n一截車廂沒過,這像是說我們全家要出遊,去到目的地外頭才發現,孩子怎麼會減載一個啦,這個邏輯就是這個樣子,這個很可怕,聽起來就很恐怖,所以市長應該要早知道,這個事情你交通部要充分掌握,董事長\n\n31\n00:11:46,604 --> 00:12:00,811\n我們總會不可能這麼重大事情只有一個同仁我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽有沒有看清楚不可能嘛所以剛剛早上的回答本席聽完實在是替你們捏一把冷汗\n\n32\n00:12:02,783 --> 00:12:05,638\n還好他只是掃掛他沒有造成什麼生命財產的損失啊\n\n33\n00:12:07,406 --> 00:12:32,551\n不然你看這個是多離譜的案子嘛!對不對!是!趕快掛一個車廂欸!這很難想像!至少對我來講我很難理解這個事情!時間的關係啦!我沒有辦法因為我準備了很多要安全跟你們好好的探討但因為已經超過太久的時間了但我還是強調啦!台鐵沒有安全就談不了其他的事情啦!\n\n34\n00:12:33,431 --> 00:12:50,713\n不安全其他都不用說嘛你看高鐵我也看了高鐵的報告他雖然還是有一些數字還是不是很漂亮啦但是基本上你看消費者在對高鐵的準點安全舒適度他的滿意度相對是高很多的\n\n35\n00:12:51,534 --> 00:13:07,011\n所以台鐵公司有一個方向在但是不能拿這樣比啦這樣比台鐵公司的員工同仁一定不能接受嘛因為兩家企業從文化成立的目的通的不一樣但是給你們公司化了你們現在也要談漲價我們也知道台鐵要永續\n\n36\n00:13:08,137 --> 00:13:34,611\n可是這些問題之前像你說要漲幅啊要漲35.6我對這個數字我也很有意見我有意見不是說不可以漲35.6是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6你經營有效率你的成本就會降低但是如果你經營沒效率你的成本很高而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者\n\n37\n00:13:36,177 --> 00:13:41,834\n這個不合理所以我每次提這個我都希望你先蓋啦蓋到一個差不多啊我們這裡說啊要怎麼去\n\n38\n00:13:43,601 --> 00:14:07,917\n所以本席不會是說未反對或反對說不可以一定不可以漲不可以漲台鐵的豆沒有台鐵可以做啊但是要怎麼漲我認為大家應該進入很細部的大家好好來研究一下台鐵的效率達到一個程度了你要轉嫁適度轉嫁給消費者我覺得合理台鐵什麼都沒做成本很高為了不虧錢把高成本全部轉嫁這個我反對\n\n39\n00:14:08,888 --> 00:14:13,360\nOK喔抱歉主席啦把你耽誤太多時間好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝蔡其昌委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5876\t12038\t謝謝主席麻煩主席請五次長跟杜董事長請五次長還有杜葳董事長市長早安市長我想剛剛臨時提案我已經提過了但是剛剛我想說上台再來問你\n27760\t41774\t這個捷運局限你也跟市政府進行溝通那我也從中央爭取的預算來補助市政府讓局限可以從現行市政府規劃的清泉崗國際機場延伸到清水\n42915\t62613\t那市政府也初步這個他們的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案那我想請問次長這件事情什麼時候可以定案也就是說臺中市的交通局給你一個正向的答案但是這個答案我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親跟海線的鄉親報告說\n65404\t91000\t這件事情延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃的海線有希望捷運可以到了來所以我跟委員報告齁上禮拜我召開這個會議他們是他們交通局的副局長過來那我們也跟他提到說這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意這個需求希望能夠延伸這樣才算是比較完整對沒錯\n91380\t111610\t已經到那邊到清水其實短短的幾公里而已我們一直跟他這樣做一個建議但是其實是在地方事務所以我們跟他講說沒關係這個時候如果你要做一個研究我們跟他講說其實可以做一個研究那這個可信性研究那個費用部分交通部會全力來支持沒錯這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的\n112050\t115212\t我的意思就是說我希望在今年的12月底之前我要看到市政府的申請\n139795\t140556\t時間就是在走嘛\n163855\t182853\t你沒那麼快你可言我錢都要給你市政府你連申請的公文都不上來申請這條可言你市政府跟我講說你態度上想要延伸局限想要照我的意見延伸到清水那你這不是說謊話嗎這不是擺明的就是擺爛嗎\n184875\t206424\t市長我不希望浪費時間,所以如果到今年年底市政府申請中央要補助他,錢都可以存好,他還不可以走,你一定要讓本席知道,可以嗎?是,可以,沒問題。好,OK。那個今天啊,這個謝謝昭緯啊,特別安排啊,這個台鐵公司啊,這個安全的問題啊,這個本席啊,認真把它研究,其實台鐵齁,這個\n209492\t220405\t在談那些漲價我也跟杜董事長溝通過服務品質跟安全是旅客對台鐵公司的要求所以如果大家把安全跟品質做好\n221209\t240342\t要談漲價消費者接受的程度會比較高如果這個事情特別是安全都沒有做好你要跟人家談漲價有時候民眾這個接受程度很低那我看了一下那個我不知道董事長你們提這個臺鐵5年的安全提升方案\n241303\t267837\t董事長這是應該是在你任內這個是你提的嘛從一百一百一十三年到一百一十七年啊這個五年安全提升方案是嗎這是我們公司的政策對那我看了一下你這個這個方案齁總共叫五年啊那這五年的方案從一百一十三年開始到一百一十三年還沒有結束但我把你一到八月你們現在有的資料我看了一下齁這個\n271336\t291266\t台鐵公司你們的五年提升法案的113年要求要比112年這個一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數要降低20%但是我把它看了一下113年看起來不但不會降低還會比112年升高\n294687\t315122\t董事長你有沒有發現時間還沒有到但我跟你估算一下因為你的發生事故每一個月的平均值其實都相當平均啦所以換言之我已經現在已經十月了剩下差不多三個月我跟你統計一下你今年不但不會降低你的報告是說今年開始要降低20%喔\n316423\t345459\t第一年就要降低百分之二十但是現在來檢驗你的報告的第一年不但不會降低還會升高欸董事長你有沒有發現這個問題是對阿什麼原因跟委員報告齁這個我們我們這個就是今年齁可能會無法達標這件事情齁大概有幾個因素啦齁第一個就是我們這個事故事件齁我們的統計齁我們是綜合可控跟不可控因素全部都在裡面\n346159\t367988\t今年老實講第一個最大的原因是今年的天災比較多一點所以我們整體的成績就變成建樹也往上拉第二個也不諱言就是我們現在老舊車輛這一部分我們去努力的還不夠所以這個也是有增加第三部分\n368948\t385848\t就是我們因為要建立我們公司的安全文化所以我們以往在112年以前我們沒有列進來說它是算一個事故或是一個事件的這種這種情形我們在今年我們都把它列進來\n386749\t387189\t董事長,如果要這樣\n411341\t431913\t你現在告訴我三個主要原因一個就是天災一個就是車子老舊第三個就是過去的指標太籠統現在用嚴謹的標準所以看起來你的比例就上升了那如果你要這樣做拜託一下啦這種五年安全提升方案你就重做啦\n432898\t442208\t那個楊局長應該要監督你嘛這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你對不對阿你叫楊局長怎麼監督啦\n443834\t469802\t就是說你五年改善計畫的第一年都已經不但沒有下降一般是說我們目標20啦結果天災啦什麼所以我只下降10%很抱歉你現在不是你現在是沒有下降還是上升而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉啦上升30%以上都跑不掉那你覺得不可控的因素叫天災那你應該把天災分出來嘛\n470984\t494718\t不然如果我做一個立法院我怎麼監督你我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你那個運安會在這裡他怎麼監督啊我按照你自己寫的標準都做不到還上升但是你現在跟我解釋說因為很多天災你天災你本來就應該要排除你要告訴我監督者或是你告訴鐵道局說那個天災放在這一邊\n495851\t503933\t但是我其他人委的放這一邊所以鐵道局可以監督你立法院可以監督你代表消費者你的安全啊\n504901\t526846\t我要求就這個嘛是是董事長這個不過分嘛是是齁市長可以嗎可以這沒問題這個至少你的方案我要看到新的你的五年安全提升的方案這你自己寫的第一年的出包啊現在在談安全這個這個大家可能在立法院站在監督者的角色我是不大能夠接受這就出現這個狀況嘛\n528802\t553154\t局長應該今年看起來如果到12月給你的報告你也是看不下去了對不對應該是很難達標對我也知道很難達標所以後面這幾年你要告訴我所以114年可以達標我也很懷疑所以這個應該局長市長重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的你就要做實事你就紮紮實實的去做\n555307\t580896\t有一個KPI有一個指標我們可以監督你你也可以跟同仁大家一起來努力把這個指標達成不要都做假的啦就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案什麼方案什麼方案結果最後都是做假的這根本就做不到了好那另外你說老舊我看了一下今年的預算你們要把那個像那個台鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫本來113年就應該要完成了\n584810\t613789\t看起來你們今天的預算要把它延到116年對不對是阿為什麼會113年該買完該貸換完的這個車輛要拖到116年為什麼這因為主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情齁這個車輛製造廠商齁他沒有辦法如期的把車子交給我們好所以確定是這樣子啦齁不是我們的行政效率很差啦齁不是是交貨廠商的問題阿這個有沒有罰則\n616019\t644085\t這個就是也是要看他的真正的原因的我覺得台鐵公司的權益你們要去捍衛啦好不好因為他的供應鏈什麼都有受到影響對113年就要買鎖了到現在還要主席已經站起來了啦其實我對安全喔你說那個明日號的車廂少掛一截我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋我實在是不大能夠接受次長這個通報系統也要知道啦\n645686\t673508\t少一節車廂沒多餒次長這個你們至少交通部應該有對於下屬所有從航空陸地到海洋從平路到軌道重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛你們才會知道而且更何況今天要來立法院還是題目叫做臺鐵的安全欸\n675052\t693267\t一截車廂沒過,這像是說我們全家要出遊,去到目的地外頭才發現,孩子怎麼會減載一個啦,這個邏輯就是這個樣子,這個很可怕,聽起來就很恐怖,所以市長應該要早知道,這個事情你交通部要充分掌握,董事長\n706604\t720811\t我們總會不可能這麼重大事情只有一個同仁我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽有沒有看清楚不可能嘛所以剛剛早上的回答本席聽完實在是替你們捏一把冷汗\n722783\t725638\t還好他只是掃掛他沒有造成什麼生命財產的損失啊\n727406\t752551\t不然你看這個是多離譜的案子嘛!對不對!是!趕快掛一個車廂欸!這很難想像!至少對我來講我很難理解這個事情!時間的關係啦!我沒有辦法因為我準備了很多要安全跟你們好好的探討但因為已經超過太久的時間了但我還是強調啦!台鐵沒有安全就談不了其他的事情啦!\n753431\t770713\t不安全其他都不用說嘛你看高鐵我也看了高鐵的報告他雖然還是有一些數字還是不是很漂亮啦但是基本上你看消費者在對高鐵的準點安全舒適度他的滿意度相對是高很多的\n771534\t787011\t所以台鐵公司有一個方向在但是不能拿這樣比啦這樣比台鐵公司的員工同仁一定不能接受嘛因為兩家企業從文化成立的目的通的不一樣但是給你們公司化了你們現在也要談漲價我們也知道台鐵要永續\n788137\t814611\t可是這些問題之前像你說要漲幅啊要漲35.6我對這個數字我也很有意見我有意見不是說不可以漲35.6是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6你經營有效率你的成本就會降低但是如果你經營沒效率你的成本很高而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者\n816177\t821834\t這個不合理所以我每次提這個我都希望你先蓋啦蓋到一個差不多啊我們這裡說啊要怎麼去\n823601\t847917\t所以本席不會是說未反對或反對說不可以一定不可以漲不可以漲台鐵的豆沒有台鐵可以做啊但是要怎麼漲我認為大家應該進入很細部的大家好好來研究一下台鐵的效率達到一個程度了你要轉嫁適度轉嫁給消費者我覺得合理台鐵什麼都沒做成本很高為了不虧錢把高成本全部轉嫁這個我反對\n848888\t853360\tOK 喔 抱歉 主席啦 把你耽誤太多時間好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝蔡其昌委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩主席請五次長跟杜董事長請五次長還有杜葳董事長市長早安市長我想剛剛臨時提案我已經提過了但是剛剛我想說上台再來問你\n這個捷運局限你也跟市政府進行溝通那我也從中央爭取的預算來補助市政府讓局限可以從現行市政府規劃的清泉崗國際機場延伸到清水\n那市政府也初步這個他們的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案那我想請問次長這件事情什麼時候可以定案也就是說臺中市的交通局給你一個正向的答案但是這個答案我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親跟海線的鄉親報告說\n這件事情延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃的海線有希望捷運可以到了來所以我跟委員報告齁上禮拜我召開這個會議他們是他們交通局的副局長過來那我們也跟他提到說這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意這個需求希望能夠延伸這樣才算是比較完整對沒錯\n已經到那邊到清水其實短短的幾公里而已我們一直跟他這樣做一個建議但是其實是在地方事務所以我們跟他講說沒關係這個時候如果你要做一個研究我們跟他講說其實可以做一個研究那這個可信性研究那個費用部分交通部會全力來支持沒錯這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的\n我的意思就是說我希望在今年的12月底之前我要看到市政府的申請\n時間就是在走嘛\n你沒那麼快你可言我錢都要給你市政府你連申請的公文都不上來申請這條可言你市政府跟我講說你態度上想要延伸局限想要照我的意見延伸到清水那你這不是說謊話嗎這不是擺明的就是擺爛嗎\n市長我不希望浪費時間,所以如果到今年年底市政府申請中央要補助他,錢都可以存好,他還不可以走,你一定要讓本席知道,可以嗎?是,可以,沒問題。好,OK。那個今天啊,這個謝謝昭緯啊,特別安排啊,這個台鐵公司啊,這個安全的問題啊,這個本席啊,認真把它研究,其實台鐵齁,這個\n在談那些漲價我也跟杜董事長溝通過服務品質跟安全是旅客對台鐵公司的要求所以如果大家把安全跟品質做好\n要談漲價消費者接受的程度會比較高如果這個事情特別是安全都沒有做好你要跟人家談漲價有時候民眾這個接受程度很低那我看了一下那個我不知道董事長你們提這個臺鐵5年的安全提升方案\n董事長這是應該是在你任內這個是你提的嘛從一百一百一十三年到一百一十七年啊這個五年安全提升方案是嗎這是我們公司的政策對那我看了一下你這個這個方案齁總共叫五年啊那這五年的方案從一百一十三年開始到一百一十三年還沒有結束但我把你一到八月你們現在有的資料我看了一下齁這個\n台鐵公司你們的五年提升法案的113年要求要比112年這個一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數要降低20%但是我把它看了一下113年看起來不但不會降低還會比112年升高\n董事長你有沒有發現時間還沒有到但我跟你估算一下因為你的發生事故每一個月的平均值其實都相當平均啦所以換言之我已經現在已經十月了剩下差不多三個月我跟你統計一下你今年不但不會降低你的報告是說今年開始要降低20%喔\n第一年就要降低百分之二十但是現在來檢驗你的報告的第一年不但不會降低還會升高欸董事長你有沒有發現這個問題是對阿什麼原因跟委員報告齁這個我們我們這個就是今年齁可能會無法達標這件事情齁大概有幾個因素啦齁第一個就是我們這個事故事件齁我們的統計齁我們是綜合可控跟不可控因素全部都在裡面\n今年老實講第一個最大的原因是今年的天災比較多一點所以我們整體的成績就變成建樹也往上拉第二個也不諱言就是我們現在老舊車輛這一部分我們去努力的還不夠所以這個也是有增加第三部分\n就是我們因為要建立我們公司的安全文化所以我們以往在112年以前我們沒有列進來說它是算一個事故或是一個事件的這種這種情形我們在今年我們都把它列進來\n董事長,如果要這樣\n你現在告訴我三個主要原因一個就是天災一個就是車子老舊第三個就是過去的指標太籠統現在用嚴謹的標準所以看起來你的比例就上升了那如果你要這樣做拜託一下啦這種五年安全提升方案你就重做啦\n那個楊局長應該要監督你嘛這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你對不對阿你叫楊局長怎麼監督啦\n就是說你五年改善計畫的第一年都已經不但沒有下降一般是說我們目標20啦結果天災啦什麼所以我只下降10%很抱歉你現在不是你現在是沒有下降還是上升而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉啦上升30%以上都跑不掉那你覺得不可控的因素叫天災那你應該把天災分出來嘛\n不然如果我做一個立法院我怎麼監督你我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你那個運安會在這裡他怎麼監督啊我按照你自己寫的標準都做不到還上升但是你現在跟我解釋說因為很多天災你天災你本來就應該要排除你要告訴我監督者或是你告訴鐵道局說那個天災放在這一邊\n但是我其他人委的放這一邊所以鐵道局可以監督你立法院可以監督你代表消費者你的安全啊\n我要求就這個嘛是是董事長這個不過分嘛是是齁市長可以嗎可以這沒問題這個至少你的方案我要看到新的你的五年安全提升的方案這你自己寫的第一年的出包啊現在在談安全這個這個大家可能在立法院站在監督者的角色我是不大能夠接受這就出現這個狀況嘛\n局長應該今年看起來如果到12月給你的報告你也是看不下去了對不對應該是很難達標對我也知道很難達標所以後面這幾年你要告訴我所以114年可以達標我也很懷疑所以這個應該局長市長重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的你就要做實事你就紮紮實實的去做\n有一個KPI有一個指標我們可以監督你你也可以跟同仁大家一起來努力把這個指標達成不要都做假的啦就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案什麼方案什麼方案結果最後都是做假的這根本就做不到了好那另外你說老舊我看了一下今年的預算你們要把那個像那個台鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫本來113年就應該要完成了\n看起來你們今天的預算要把它延到116年對不對是阿為什麼會113年該買完該貸換完的這個車輛要拖到116年為什麼這因為主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情齁這個車輛製造廠商齁他沒有辦法如期的把車子交給我們好所以確定是這樣子啦齁不是我們的行政效率很差啦齁不是是交貨廠商的問題阿這個有沒有罰則\n這個就是也是要看他的真正的原因的我覺得台鐵公司的權益你們要去捍衛啦好不好因為他的供應鏈什麼都有受到影響對113年就要買鎖了到現在還要主席已經站起來了啦其實我對安全喔你說那個明日號的車廂少掛一截我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋我實在是不大能夠接受次長這個通報系統也要知道啦\n少一節車廂沒多餒次長這個你們至少交通部應該有對於下屬所有從航空陸地到海洋從平路到軌道重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛你們才會知道而且更何況今天要來立法院還是題目叫做臺鐵的安全欸\n一截車廂沒過,這像是說我們全家要出遊,去到目的地外頭才發現,孩子怎麼會減載一個啦,這個邏輯就是這個樣子,這個很可怕,聽起來就很恐怖,所以市長應該要早知道,這個事情你交通部要充分掌握,董事長\n我們總會不可能這麼重大事情只有一個同仁我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽有沒有看清楚不可能嘛所以剛剛早上的回答本席聽完實在是替你們捏一把冷汗\n還好他只是掃掛他沒有造成什麼生命財產的損失啊\n不然你看這個是多離譜的案子嘛!對不對!是!趕快掛一個車廂欸!這很難想像!至少對我來講我很難理解這個事情!時間的關係啦!我沒有辦法因為我準備了很多要安全跟你們好好的探討但因為已經超過太久的時間了但我還是強調啦!台鐵沒有安全就談不了其他的事情啦!\n不安全其他都不用說嘛你看高鐵我也看了高鐵的報告他雖然還是有一些數字還是不是很漂亮啦但是基本上你看消費者在對高鐵的準點安全舒適度他的滿意度相對是高很多的\n所以台鐵公司有一個方向在但是不能拿這樣比啦這樣比台鐵公司的員工同仁一定不能接受嘛因為兩家企業從文化成立的目的通的不一樣但是給你們公司化了你們現在也要談漲價我們也知道台鐵要永續\n可是這些問題之前像你說要漲幅啊要漲35.6我對這個數字我也很有意見我有意見不是說不可以漲35.6是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6你經營有效率你的成本就會降低但是如果你經營沒效率你的成本很高而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者\n這個不合理所以我每次提這個我都希望你先蓋啦蓋到一個差不多啊我們這裡說啊要怎麼去\n所以本席不會是說未反對或反對說不可以一定不可以漲不可以漲台鐵的豆沒有台鐵可以做啊但是要怎麼漲我認為大家應該進入很細部的大家好好來研究一下台鐵的效率達到一個程度了你要轉嫁適度轉嫁給消費者我覺得合理台鐵什麼都沒做成本很高為了不虧錢把高成本全部轉嫁這個我反對\nOK 喔 抱歉 主席啦 把你耽誤太多時間好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝蔡其昌委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.876 --> 00:12.038\n謝謝主席麻煩主席請五次長跟杜董事長請五次長還有杜葳董事長市長早安市長我想剛剛臨時提案我已經提過了但是剛剛我想說上台再來問你\n\n00:27.760 --> 00:41.774\n這個捷運局限你也跟市政府進行溝通那我也從中央爭取的預算來補助市政府讓局限可以從現行市政府規劃的清泉崗國際機場延伸到清水\n\n00:42.915 --> 01:02.613\n那市政府也初步這個他們的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案那我想請問次長這件事情什麼時候可以定案也就是說臺中市的交通局給你一個正向的答案但是這個答案我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親跟海線的鄉親報告說\n\n01:05.404 --> 01:31.000\n這件事情延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃的海線有希望捷運可以到了來所以我跟委員報告齁上禮拜我召開這個會議他們是他們交通局的副局長過來那我們也跟他提到說這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意這個需求希望能夠延伸這樣才算是比較完整對沒錯\n\n01:31.380 --> 01:51.610\n已經到那邊到清水其實短短的幾公里而已我們一直跟他這樣做一個建議但是其實是在地方事務所以我們跟他講說沒關係這個時候如果你要做一個研究我們跟他講說其實可以做一個研究那這個可信性研究那個費用部分交通部會全力來支持沒錯這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的\n\n01:52.050 --> 01:55.212\n我的意思就是說我希望在今年的12月底之前我要看到市政府的申請\n\n02:19.795 --> 02:20.556\n時間就是在走嘛\n\n02:43.855 --> 03:02.853\n你沒那麼快你可言我錢都要給你市政府你連申請的公文都不上來申請這條可言你市政府跟我講說你態度上想要延伸局限想要照我的意見延伸到清水那你這不是說謊話嗎這不是擺明的就是擺爛嗎\n\n03:04.875 --> 03:26.424\n市長我不希望浪費時間,所以如果到今年年底市政府申請中央要補助他,錢都可以存好,他還不可以走,你一定要讓本席知道,可以嗎?是,可以,沒問題。好,OK。那個今天啊,這個謝謝昭緯啊,特別安排啊,這個台鐵公司啊,這個安全的問題啊,這個本席啊,認真把它研究,其實台鐵齁,這個\n\n03:29.492 --> 03:40.405\n在談那些漲價我也跟杜董事長溝通過服務品質跟安全是旅客對台鐵公司的要求所以如果大家把安全跟品質做好\n\n03:41.209 --> 04:00.342\n要談漲價消費者接受的程度會比較高如果這個事情特別是安全都沒有做好你要跟人家談漲價有時候民眾這個接受程度很低那我看了一下那個我不知道董事長你們提這個臺鐵5年的安全提升方案\n\n04:01.303 --> 04:27.837\n董事長這是應該是在你任內這個是你提的嘛從一百一百一十三年到一百一十七年啊這個五年安全提升方案是嗎這是我們公司的政策對那我看了一下你這個這個方案齁總共叫五年啊那這五年的方案從一百一十三年開始到一百一十三年還沒有結束但我把你一到八月你們現在有的資料我看了一下齁這個\n\n04:31.336 --> 04:51.266\n台鐵公司你們的五年提升法案的113年要求要比112年這個一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數要降低20%但是我把它看了一下113年看起來不但不會降低還會比112年升高\n\n04:54.687 --> 05:15.122\n董事長你有沒有發現時間還沒有到但我跟你估算一下因為你的發生事故每一個月的平均值其實都相當平均啦所以換言之我已經現在已經十月了剩下差不多三個月我跟你統計一下你今年不但不會降低你的報告是說今年開始要降低20%喔\n\n05:16.423 --> 05:45.459\n第一年就要降低百分之二十但是現在來檢驗你的報告的第一年不但不會降低還會升高欸董事長你有沒有發現這個問題是對阿什麼原因跟委員報告齁這個我們我們這個就是今年齁可能會無法達標這件事情齁大概有幾個因素啦齁第一個就是我們這個事故事件齁我們的統計齁我們是綜合可控跟不可控因素全部都在裡面\n\n05:46.159 --> 06:07.988\n今年老實講第一個最大的原因是今年的天災比較多一點所以我們整體的成績就變成建樹也往上拉第二個也不諱言就是我們現在老舊車輛這一部分我們去努力的還不夠所以這個也是有增加第三部分\n\n06:08.948 --> 06:25.848\n就是我們因為要建立我們公司的安全文化所以我們以往在112年以前我們沒有列進來說它是算一個事故或是一個事件的這種這種情形我們在今年我們都把它列進來\n\n06:26.749 --> 06:27.189\n董事長,如果要這樣\n\n06:51.341 --> 07:11.913\n你現在告訴我三個主要原因一個就是天災一個就是車子老舊第三個就是過去的指標太籠統現在用嚴謹的標準所以看起來你的比例就上升了那如果你要這樣做拜託一下啦這種五年安全提升方案你就重做啦\n\n07:12.898 --> 07:22.208\n那個楊局長應該要監督你嘛這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你對不對阿你叫楊局長怎麼監督啦\n\n07:23.834 --> 07:49.802\n就是說你五年改善計畫的第一年都已經不但沒有下降一般是說我們目標20啦結果天災啦什麼所以我只下降10%很抱歉你現在不是你現在是沒有下降還是上升而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉啦上升30%以上都跑不掉那你覺得不可控的因素叫天災那你應該把天災分出來嘛\n\n07:50.984 --> 08:14.718\n不然如果我做一個立法院我怎麼監督你我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你那個運安會在這裡他怎麼監督啊我按照你自己寫的標準都做不到還上升但是你現在跟我解釋說因為很多天災你天災你本來就應該要排除你要告訴我監督者或是你告訴鐵道局說那個天災放在這一邊\n\n08:15.851 --> 08:23.933\n但是我其他人委的放這一邊所以鐵道局可以監督你立法院可以監督你代表消費者你的安全啊\n\n08:24.901 --> 08:46.846\n我要求就這個嘛是是董事長這個不過分嘛是是齁市長可以嗎可以這沒問題這個至少你的方案我要看到新的你的五年安全提升的方案這你自己寫的第一年的出包啊現在在談安全這個這個大家可能在立法院站在監督者的角色我是不大能夠接受這就出現這個狀況嘛\n\n08:48.802 --> 09:13.154\n局長應該今年看起來如果到12月給你的報告你也是看不下去了對不對應該是很難達標對我也知道很難達標所以後面這幾年你要告訴我所以114年可以達標我也很懷疑所以這個應該局長市長重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的你就要做實事你就紮紮實實的去做\n\n09:15.307 --> 09:40.896\n有一個KPI有一個指標我們可以監督你你也可以跟同仁大家一起來努力把這個指標達成不要都做假的啦就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案什麼方案什麼方案結果最後都是做假的這根本就做不到了好那另外你說老舊我看了一下今年的預算你們要把那個像那個台鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫本來113年就應該要完成了\n\n09:44.810 --> 10:13.789\n看起來你們今天的預算要把它延到116年對不對是阿為什麼會113年該買完該貸換完的這個車輛要拖到116年為什麼這因為主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情齁這個車輛製造廠商齁他沒有辦法如期的把車子交給我們好所以確定是這樣子啦齁不是我們的行政效率很差啦齁不是是交貨廠商的問題阿這個有沒有罰則\n\n10:16.019 --> 10:44.085\n這個就是也是要看他的真正的原因的我覺得台鐵公司的權益你們要去捍衛啦好不好因為他的供應鏈什麼都有受到影響對113年就要買鎖了到現在還要主席已經站起來了啦其實我對安全喔你說那個明日號的車廂少掛一截我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋我實在是不大能夠接受次長這個通報系統也要知道啦\n\n10:45.686 --> 11:13.508\n少一節車廂沒多餒次長這個你們至少交通部應該有對於下屬所有從航空陸地到海洋從平路到軌道重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛你們才會知道而且更何況今天要來立法院還是題目叫做臺鐵的安全欸\n\n11:15.052 --> 11:33.267\n一截車廂沒過,這像是說我們全家要出遊,去到目的地外頭才發現,孩子怎麼會減載一個啦,這個邏輯就是這個樣子,這個很可怕,聽起來就很恐怖,所以市長應該要早知道,這個事情你交通部要充分掌握,董事長\n\n11:46.604 --> 12:00.811\n我們總會不可能這麼重大事情只有一個同仁我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽有沒有看清楚不可能嘛所以剛剛早上的回答本席聽完實在是替你們捏一把冷汗\n\n12:02.783 --> 12:05.638\n還好他只是掃掛他沒有造成什麼生命財產的損失啊\n\n12:07.406 --> 12:32.551\n不然你看這個是多離譜的案子嘛!對不對!是!趕快掛一個車廂欸!這很難想像!至少對我來講我很難理解這個事情!時間的關係啦!我沒有辦法因為我準備了很多要安全跟你們好好的探討但因為已經超過太久的時間了但我還是強調啦!台鐵沒有安全就談不了其他的事情啦!\n\n12:33.431 --> 12:50.713\n不安全其他都不用說嘛你看高鐵我也看了高鐵的報告他雖然還是有一些數字還是不是很漂亮啦但是基本上你看消費者在對高鐵的準點安全舒適度他的滿意度相對是高很多的\n\n12:51.534 --> 13:07.011\n所以台鐵公司有一個方向在但是不能拿這樣比啦這樣比台鐵公司的員工同仁一定不能接受嘛因為兩家企業從文化成立的目的通的不一樣但是給你們公司化了你們現在也要談漲價我們也知道台鐵要永續\n\n13:08.137 --> 13:34.611\n可是這些問題之前像你說要漲幅啊要漲35.6我對這個數字我也很有意見我有意見不是說不可以漲35.6是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6你經營有效率你的成本就會降低但是如果你經營沒效率你的成本很高而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者\n\n13:36.177 --> 13:41.834\n這個不合理所以我每次提這個我都希望你先蓋啦蓋到一個差不多啊我們這裡說啊要怎麼去\n\n13:43.601 --> 14:07.917\n所以本席不會是說未反對或反對說不可以一定不可以漲不可以漲台鐵的豆沒有台鐵可以做啊但是要怎麼漲我認為大家應該進入很細部的大家好好來研究一下台鐵的效率達到一個程度了你要轉嫁適度轉嫁給消費者我覺得合理台鐵什麼都沒做成本很高為了不虧錢把高成本全部轉嫁這個我反對\n\n14:08.888 --> 14:13.360\nOK喔抱歉主席啦把你耽誤太多時間好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝蔡其昌委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.876,"end":12.038,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩主席請五次長跟杜董事長請五次長還有杜葳董事長市長早安市長我想剛剛臨時提案我已經提過了但是剛剛我想說上台再來問你"},{"start":27.76,"end":41.774,"text":"這個捷運局限你也跟市政府進行溝通那我也從中央爭取的預算來補助市政府讓局限可以從現行市政府規劃的清泉崗國際機場延伸到清水"},{"start":42.915,"end":62.613,"text":"那市政府也初步這個他們的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案那我想請問次長這件事情什麼時候可以定案也就是說臺中市的交通局給你一個正向的答案但是這個答案我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親跟海線的鄉親報告說"},{"start":65.404,"end":91,"text":"這件事情延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃的海線有希望捷運可以到了來所以我跟委員報告齁上禮拜我召開這個會議他們是他們交通局的副局長過來那我們也跟他提到說這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意這個需求希望能夠延伸這樣才算是比較完整對沒錯"},{"start":91.38,"end":111.61,"text":"已經到那邊到清水其實短短的幾公里而已我們一直跟他這樣做一個建議但是其實是在地方事務所以我們跟他講說沒關係這個時候如果你要做一個研究我們跟他講說其實可以做一個研究那這個可信性研究那個費用部分交通部會全力來支持沒錯這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的"},{"start":112.05,"end":115.212,"text":"我的意思就是說我希望在今年的12月底之前我要看到市政府的申請"},{"start":139.795,"end":140.556,"text":"時間就是在走嘛"},{"start":163.855,"end":182.853,"text":"你沒那麼快你可言我錢都要給你市政府你連申請的公文都不上來申請這條可言你市政府跟我講說你態度上想要延伸局限想要照我的意見延伸到清水那你這不是說謊話嗎這不是擺明的就是擺爛嗎"},{"start":184.875,"end":206.424,"text":"市長我不希望浪費時間,所以如果到今年年底市政府申請中央要補助他,錢都可以存好,他還不可以走,你一定要讓本席知道,可以嗎?是,可以,沒問題。好,OK。那個今天啊,這個謝謝昭緯啊,特別安排啊,這個台鐵公司啊,這個安全的問題啊,這個本席啊,認真把它研究,其實台鐵齁,這個"},{"start":209.492,"end":220.405,"text":"在談那些漲價我也跟杜董事長溝通過服務品質跟安全是旅客對台鐵公司的要求所以如果大家把安全跟品質做好"},{"start":221.209,"end":240.342,"text":"要談漲價消費者接受的程度會比較高如果這個事情特別是安全都沒有做好你要跟人家談漲價有時候民眾這個接受程度很低那我看了一下那個我不知道董事長你們提這個臺鐵5年的安全提升方案"},{"start":241.303,"end":267.837,"text":"董事長這是應該是在你任內這個是你提的嘛從一百一百一十三年到一百一十七年啊這個五年安全提升方案是嗎這是我們公司的政策對那我看了一下你這個這個方案齁總共叫五年啊那這五年的方案從一百一十三年開始到一百一十三年還沒有結束但我把你一到八月你們現在有的資料我看了一下齁這個"},{"start":271.336,"end":291.266,"text":"台鐵公司你們的五年提升法案的113年要求要比112年這個一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數要降低20%但是我把它看了一下113年看起來不但不會降低還會比112年升高"},{"start":294.687,"end":315.122,"text":"董事長你有沒有發現時間還沒有到但我跟你估算一下因為你的發生事故每一個月的平均值其實都相當平均啦所以換言之我已經現在已經十月了剩下差不多三個月我跟你統計一下你今年不但不會降低你的報告是說今年開始要降低20%喔"},{"start":316.423,"end":345.459,"text":"第一年就要降低百分之二十但是現在來檢驗你的報告的第一年不但不會降低還會升高欸董事長你有沒有發現這個問題是對阿什麼原因跟委員報告齁這個我們我們這個就是今年齁可能會無法達標這件事情齁大概有幾個因素啦齁第一個就是我們這個事故事件齁我們的統計齁我們是綜合可控跟不可控因素全部都在裡面"},{"start":346.159,"end":367.988,"text":"今年老實講第一個最大的原因是今年的天災比較多一點所以我們整體的成績就變成建樹也往上拉第二個也不諱言就是我們現在老舊車輛這一部分我們去努力的還不夠所以這個也是有增加第三部分"},{"start":368.948,"end":385.848,"text":"就是我們因為要建立我們公司的安全文化所以我們以往在112年以前我們沒有列進來說它是算一個事故或是一個事件的這種這種情形我們在今年我們都把它列進來"},{"start":386.749,"end":387.189,"text":"董事長,如果要這樣"},{"start":411.341,"end":431.913,"text":"你現在告訴我三個主要原因一個就是天災一個就是車子老舊第三個就是過去的指標太籠統現在用嚴謹的標準所以看起來你的比例就上升了那如果你要這樣做拜託一下啦這種五年安全提升方案你就重做啦"},{"start":432.898,"end":442.208,"text":"那個楊局長應該要監督你嘛這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你對不對阿你叫楊局長怎麼監督啦"},{"start":443.834,"end":469.802,"text":"就是說你五年改善計畫的第一年都已經不但沒有下降一般是說我們目標20啦結果天災啦什麼所以我只下降10%很抱歉你現在不是你現在是沒有下降還是上升而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉啦上升30%以上都跑不掉那你覺得不可控的因素叫天災那你應該把天災分出來嘛"},{"start":470.984,"end":494.718,"text":"不然如果我做一個立法院我怎麼監督你我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你那個運安會在這裡他怎麼監督啊我按照你自己寫的標準都做不到還上升但是你現在跟我解釋說因為很多天災你天災你本來就應該要排除你要告訴我監督者或是你告訴鐵道局說那個天災放在這一邊"},{"start":495.851,"end":503.933,"text":"但是我其他人委的放這一邊所以鐵道局可以監督你立法院可以監督你代表消費者你的安全啊"},{"start":504.901,"end":526.846,"text":"我要求就這個嘛是是董事長這個不過分嘛是是齁市長可以嗎可以這沒問題這個至少你的方案我要看到新的你的五年安全提升的方案這你自己寫的第一年的出包啊現在在談安全這個這個大家可能在立法院站在監督者的角色我是不大能夠接受這就出現這個狀況嘛"},{"start":528.802,"end":553.154,"text":"局長應該今年看起來如果到12月給你的報告你也是看不下去了對不對應該是很難達標對我也知道很難達標所以後面這幾年你要告訴我所以114年可以達標我也很懷疑所以這個應該局長市長重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的你就要做實事你就紮紮實實的去做"},{"start":555.307,"end":580.896,"text":"有一個KPI有一個指標我們可以監督你你也可以跟同仁大家一起來努力把這個指標達成不要都做假的啦就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案什麼方案什麼方案結果最後都是做假的這根本就做不到了好那另外你說老舊我看了一下今年的預算你們要把那個像那個台鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫本來113年就應該要完成了"},{"start":584.81,"end":613.789,"text":"看起來你們今天的預算要把它延到116年對不對是阿為什麼會113年該買完該貸換完的這個車輛要拖到116年為什麼這因為主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情齁這個車輛製造廠商齁他沒有辦法如期的把車子交給我們好所以確定是這樣子啦齁不是我們的行政效率很差啦齁不是是交貨廠商的問題阿這個有沒有罰則"},{"start":616.019,"end":644.085,"text":"這個就是也是要看他的真正的原因的我覺得台鐵公司的權益你們要去捍衛啦好不好因為他的供應鏈什麼都有受到影響對113年就要買鎖了到現在還要主席已經站起來了啦其實我對安全喔你說那個明日號的車廂少掛一截我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋我實在是不大能夠接受次長這個通報系統也要知道啦"},{"start":645.686,"end":673.508,"text":"少一節車廂沒多餒次長這個你們至少交通部應該有對於下屬所有從航空陸地到海洋從平路到軌道重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛你們才會知道而且更何況今天要來立法院還是題目叫做臺鐵的安全欸"},{"start":675.052,"end":693.267,"text":"一截車廂沒過,這像是說我們全家要出遊,去到目的地外頭才發現,孩子怎麼會減載一個啦,這個邏輯就是這個樣子,這個很可怕,聽起來就很恐怖,所以市長應該要早知道,這個事情你交通部要充分掌握,董事長"},{"start":706.604,"end":720.811,"text":"我們總會不可能這麼重大事情只有一個同仁我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽有沒有看清楚不可能嘛所以剛剛早上的回答本席聽完實在是替你們捏一把冷汗"},{"start":722.783,"end":725.638,"text":"還好他只是掃掛他沒有造成什麼生命財產的損失啊"},{"start":727.406,"end":752.551,"text":"不然你看這個是多離譜的案子嘛!對不對!是!趕快掛一個車廂欸!這很難想像!至少對我來講我很難理解這個事情!時間的關係啦!我沒有辦法因為我準備了很多要安全跟你們好好的探討但因為已經超過太久的時間了但我還是強調啦!台鐵沒有安全就談不了其他的事情啦!"},{"start":753.431,"end":770.713,"text":"不安全其他都不用說嘛你看高鐵我也看了高鐵的報告他雖然還是有一些數字還是不是很漂亮啦但是基本上你看消費者在對高鐵的準點安全舒適度他的滿意度相對是高很多的"},{"start":771.534,"end":787.011,"text":"所以台鐵公司有一個方向在但是不能拿這樣比啦這樣比台鐵公司的員工同仁一定不能接受嘛因為兩家企業從文化成立的目的通的不一樣但是給你們公司化了你們現在也要談漲價我們也知道台鐵要永續"},{"start":788.137,"end":814.611,"text":"可是這些問題之前像你說要漲幅啊要漲35.6我對這個數字我也很有意見我有意見不是說不可以漲35.6是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6你經營有效率你的成本就會降低但是如果你經營沒效率你的成本很高而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者"},{"start":816.177,"end":821.834,"text":"這個不合理所以我每次提這個我都希望你先蓋啦蓋到一個差不多啊我們這裡說啊要怎麼去"},{"start":823.601,"end":847.917,"text":"所以本席不會是說未反對或反對說不可以一定不可以漲不可以漲台鐵的豆沒有台鐵可以做啊但是要怎麼漲我認為大家應該進入很細部的大家好好來研究一下台鐵的效率達到一個程度了你要轉嫁適度轉嫁給消費者我覺得合理台鐵什麼都沒做成本很高為了不虧錢把高成本全部轉嫁這個我反對"},{"start":848.888,"end":853.36,"text":"OK 喔 抱歉 主席啦 把你耽誤太多時間好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝蔡其昌委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:31:07 - 11:45:24","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155436,"gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩請伍次長跟杜董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長，還有杜微董事長。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長早安。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，剛剛臨時提案我已經提過了，但我想上臺再來問你。關於捷運橘線，你也跟市政府進行溝通，我也從中央爭取了預算來補助市政府，讓橘線可以從現行市政府規劃的清泉崗國際機場延伸到清水，市政府的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案，我想請問次長，這件事情什麼時候可以定案？也就是說，臺中市政府交通局給你一個正向的答案，但是這個答案，我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親、海線的鄉親報告說「這個延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃了，海線有希望，捷運可以到了」？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我跟委員報告，上個禮拜我召開相關會議，是他們交通局的副局長過來，我們也跟他們提到，這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意需求，希望能夠延伸，這樣才算比較完整。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、沒錯。"],["伍次長勝園：那邊搭到清水其實短短幾公里而已……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["伍次長勝園：我們一直跟他們做這樣的建議，但這是地方事務，所以我們跟他們講：沒關係，如果這個時候要做一個研究，我們會跟他們講，其實可以做一個研究，這個可行性研究的費用，交通部會全力支持。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的。"],["伍次長勝園：對，所以他們也初步跟我講：好，這部分會來爭取。我們會依照程序，撥付經費給他們。因為他們目前的可研還有一些意見在修正，原則上應該沒有問題，他們過來以後，我們就會報院……"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，我的意思是，我希望在今年的12月底之前要看到市政府的申請，橘線延伸到清水的可研送到中央來，你覺得這樣有沒有問題？"],["伍次長勝園：我們再來跟臺中市政府協調。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我希望這樣，如果市政府遲遲都沒有動作，我覺得你應該儘早跟本席回應這個問題，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是，有需要我們會再開會，沒關係，我們來協調。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間就是在走嘛……"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：可研不快一點……錢都要給市政府了，連申請這一條可研的公文都不上來，市政府在態度上跟我講想要延伸橘線，想要照我的意見延伸到清水，這不是說謊話嗎？這不是擺明著擺爛嗎？次長，我不希望浪費時間，如果今年年底中央要補助市政府的申請，錢都幫他們準備好了，他們還不做，你一定要讓本席知道，可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，OK。今天謝謝召委特別安排臺鐵公司討論安全的問題，本席認真研究，其實臺鐵在談漲價，我也跟杜董事長溝通過，服務品質跟安全是旅客對臺鐵公司的要求，如果把安全跟品質做好，要談漲價，消費者接受的程度會比較高，如果這個事情，特別是安全都沒有做好，你們要跟人家談漲價，有時候民眾的接受程度很低。","我看了一下，董事長你們提臺鐵5年安全提升方案，董事長，這應該是在你任內提的，從113年到117年，這個5年安全提升方案，是嗎？"],["杜董事長微：對，這是我們公司的政策。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我看了一下你的方案，總共5年，這5年的方案從113年開始，當然113年還沒有結束，但我把你們1月到8月現有的資料看了一下，臺鐵公司的5年提升方案，要求113年要比112年的一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數降低20%，但我看了一下，113年看起來不但不會降低，還會比112年升高。董事長，你有沒有發現？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間還沒有到，但我估算一下，因為臺鐵每個月發生事故的平均值其實都相當平均，換言之，現在已經10月了，剩下差不多3個月，我統計了一下，你們今年不但不會降低……你們的報告是今年開始要降低20%，第一年就要降低20%，但是現在來檢驗你們的報告，第一年不但不會降低，還會升高耶！董事長，你有沒有發現這個問題？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，什麼原因？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們今年可能會無法達標大概有幾個因素，第一個，事故事件的統計是綜合可控跟不可控因素，全部都在裡面，老實講，最大的原因就是今年天災比較多一點，所以我們整體成績就變成件數也往上拉；第二個也不諱言，現在老舊車輛這部分，我們努力的還不夠，所以這也是有增加；第三個，因為要建立我們公司的安全文化，所以以往在112年以前沒有列進來算是一個事故或是一個事件的情形，今年我們都會把它列進來，因為要建立正確的觀念，好好的檢討，這大概是今年可能沒有辦法達標最主要的3個原因……"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["杜董事長微：但是我們也有努力……"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["杜董事長微：今年我們的號誌系統故障下降，同仁的人為因素也下降。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，董事長，如果要這樣……你現在告訴我3個主要原因，一個是天災，另一個是車子老舊，第三個就是過去的指標太籠統，現在用嚴謹的標準，所以看起來比率就上升了。如果你們要這樣做，拜託一下，這種5年安全提升方案就重做啦，楊局長應該要監督你們嘛，這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你們，對不對？你們叫楊局長怎麼監督？你們5年改善計畫的第一年不但沒有下降，一般是目標20%，結果因為天災什麼的，所以很抱歉只下降10%；你們現在不是，現在是沒有下降還上升，而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉了，上升30%以上都跑不掉。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：你覺得不可控的因素叫天災，那應該把天災分出來嘛，不然我做為一個立法院，我怎麼監督你們？我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你們？運安會也在這裡，他們怎麼監督啊？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們按照你們自己寫的標準都做不到，還上升？但是你現在跟我解釋是因為有很多天災，天災本來就應該要排除，你們要告訴我這個監督者，或者告訴鐵道局，天災放一邊，其他人為的放另一邊，所以鐵道局可以監督你們、立法院可以代表消費者的安全來監督你們，我要求的就這個嘛！"],["杜董事長微：是、是。"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長，這個不過分嘛！"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，這沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：至少我要看到你們提新的5年安全提升方案，你們自己寫的，第一年的出包了啊！現在談安全，立法院站在監督者的角色，我是不大能夠接受出現這個狀況。次長，今年看起來，如果到12月給你的報告，你也是看不下去啦，對不對？因為你們連自己說的都做不到嘛！"],["杜董事長微：應該是很難達標啦。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我也知道很難達標啦，所以後面這幾年，你要告訴我「114年可以達標」，我也很懷疑耶，所以這個應該，次長，應該重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的，既然你要做實事，你就札札實實的去做嘛，有一個KPI，有一個指標，我們可以監督你，你也可以跟同仁、大家一起來努力，把這個指標達成嘛，不要都做假的啦，就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案、什麼方案、什麼方案，結果最後都是做假的，因為根本就做不到！","另外，你說老舊，但我看了一下今年的預算，你們要把那個──像臺鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫，本來113年就應該要完成了，看起來你們今年的預算要把它延到116年，對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：為什麼113年該買完、該汰換完的這些車輛，要拖到116年？為什麼？"],["杜董事長微：主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情，這個車輛製造廠商，它沒有辦法如期地把車子交給我們。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以確定是這樣子，不是我們的行政效率很差？"],["杜董事長微：不是。"],["蔡委員其昌：是交貨廠商的問題，那這個有沒有罰則？"],["杜董事長微：也是要看它真正的原因。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我覺得臺鐵公司的權益，你們要去捍衛啦，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：因為它的供應鏈，什麼都有受到影響……"],["蔡委員其昌：原本113就要購買完畢，但到現在才說要延期！主席已經站起來了，其實我對安全，你說那個鳴日號的車廂少掛一節，我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋，我實在是不大能夠接受耶！次長，這個通報系統也要知道啦，少一節車廂沒掛耶！次長，這個你們至少──交通部應該對於下屬，所有從航空、陸地到海洋，從平路到軌道，重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛，這樣你們才會知道，而且更何況今天要來立法院報告，甚至題目還叫做「臺鐵的安全」耶，一節車廂沒掛，這好像是我們全家要出遊，去到目的地後回頭才發現小孩怎麼少載一個，這個邏輯就是這個樣子，這個很可怕，聽起來就很恐怖耶！","所以次長應該要早知道，這個事情交通部要充分掌握，董事長，SOP一定有很多的防呆機制，不會說只有一個同仁他看錯了，所以車廂少掛一節，車子就出去了。不可能這麼重大事情，只有一個同仁知道，我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽，有沒有看清楚，不可能嘛！所以剛剛早上的回答，本席聽完後實在是替你們捏一把冷汗，還好它只是少掛，沒有造成什麼生命、財產的損失，不然你看這個是多離譜的案子，對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：少掛一個車廂，這很難想像，至少對我來講，我很難理解這個事情。時間的關係，我沒有辦法，因為我準備了很多安全問題要跟你們好好地探討，但因為已經超過太久的時間了。但我還是強調，臺鐵沒有安全就談不了其他事情，沒有安全其他都不用說了，你看高鐵，我也看了高鐵的報告，它雖然有一些數字還不是很漂亮，但是基本上，你看消費者在對高鐵的準點、安全、舒適度，它的滿意度相對是高很多的，所以臺鐵公司有一個方向在那裡，但是不能拿這樣比，這樣比，臺鐵公司的員工、同仁一定不能接受嘛，因為兩家企業從文化、成立的目的統統都不一樣。但是給你們公司化了，你們現在也要談漲價，我們也知道臺鐵要永續，可是這些問題處理之前，像你說漲幅要漲35.6%，我對這個數字也很有意見，我有意見，不是說不可以漲35.6%，而是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6%？你經營有效率，你的成本就會降低，但是如果你經營沒效率，你的成本很高，而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者，這個不合理！","所以我每次提這個，我都希望你們先改，改到一個差不多的程度，我們再來談要如何漲價。所以本席不會說為反對而反對，說不可以，一定不可以漲，不可以漲臺鐵就倒了嘛，沒有臺鐵可以坐。但是要怎麼漲，我認為大家應該進入很細部的，大家好好來研究一下，臺鐵的效率達到一個程度了，你要轉嫁，適度轉嫁給消費者，我覺得合理。如果臺鐵什麼都沒做，成本很高，為了不虧錢，把高成本全部轉嫁，這個我反對！OK。","主席，不好意思，耽誤你太多的時間。好，謝謝。"],["杜董事長微：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。在這邊也要提醒交通部還有臺鐵公司，因為我們知道在過去幾年，就是因為臺鐵兩次重大的行車事故，才促使臺鐵公司化的一個時程，所以對臺鐵的安全問題，是大家非常重視的，所以希望臺鐵公司要加把勁，就是要上緊發條，謝謝。","接下來，我們邀請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","黃國昌","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","游顥","邱若華","劉建國","林沛祥","葉元之"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股\n份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00002"}}}