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0.929}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 94.302, \"end\": 95.223, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 95.223, \"end\": 95.583, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 95.583, \"end\": 95.843, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 95.843, \"end\": 96.564, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 96.564, \"end\": 96.904, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 96.904, \"end\": 97.285, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 97.285, \"end\": 97.405, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 97.405, \"end\": 97.525, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 97.525, \"end\": 97.625, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 97.625, \"end\": 97.745, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 97.745, \"end\": 97.965, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 97.965, \"end\": 98.125, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"你\", 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00:00:53,675\n那我剛才其實前面也聽到部長很多的答案訊號下一張那我大概整理一下其實我們在碳定價其實碳定價當然不只是碳費那整體的碳定價其實在台灣我認為有最重要的三個考量點這三個第一個是要達成氣候目標第二對接國際第三個是維持境內外產業的公平性部長你同不同意?非常同意委員你完全說出我心裡面因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易\n\n3\n00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:22,131\n這三個是我們在規劃碳定價最重要的關鍵是在這三件事情上面那當然這幾天我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂臺板CBAN的問題簡單來說臺板CBAN在處理的問題就是剛才說的第三項維持境內外產業的公平性其實這個議題在今年的上半年的時候在應該是3月的時候我其實就有跟上一任的薛部長來去做討論那我知道之前環境部也把是把\n\n4\n00:01:23,552 --> 00:01:38,666\n臺版的不管是碳關稅或臺版的碳邊境調整機制是放在我整體的比較後面才會去來考慮的那我們現在看到產業上不管是水泥鋼鐵也有很多的討論部長我剛才聽到你在前面的回答但你回答是說\n\n5\n00:01:40,588 --> 00:02:00,645\n會等2026年歐盟的CBAN正式實施以後那我們來看我們怎麼去處理這個問題可是部長我只想提醒一件事情其實我們現在臺灣產業最主要在臺版CBAN上面的需求它主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係您也很清楚主要是因應可能是我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係\n\n6\n00:02:04,188 --> 00:02:31,262\n所以它不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟的CBAN的關係所以我們並不是說等到歐盟開始收了CBAN以後我們才要開始我覺得這個邏輯上面不是一個等價的其實這只是一個間接的關係當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠\n\n7\n00:02:32,222 --> 00:02:51,147\n等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情\n\n8\n00:02:53,047 --> 00:03:17,252\n那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略的行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情\n\n9\n00:03:18,312 --> 00:03:42,354\n部長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說你這個邊界要抓得準你不能讓人家亂申報或者是讓他逃掉之類的這個事情\n\n10\n00:03:42,774 --> 00:03:57,152\n這我們邊界我覺得這部分一定要來參考我們跟國際上面申報的經驗那也包括充分的跟國內的產業的業者包括專業團體來討論避免產業不公平的競爭這是我們剛剛說最重要的一個原則那我下一個下一張\n\n11\n00:03:59,375 --> 00:04:26,630\n再來一點是不然我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入\n\n12\n00:04:28,138 --> 00:04:44,852\n當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊\n\n13\n00:04:46,980 --> 00:04:58,396\n所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放入有放進去成為\n\n14\n00:04:59,622 --> 00:05:22,769\n可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面\n\n15\n00:05:23,349 --> 00:05:23,510\n主席\n\n16\n00:05:40,717 --> 00:06:07,629\n深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎\n\n17\n00:06:10,059 --> 00:06:28,304\n是,我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你了,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9435\t24244\t謝謝主席請彭部長請彭部長彭委員好部長我們碳費的整個包括費率有機制當然現在對外有一定程度的公告了齁\n25305\t53675\t那我剛才其實前面也聽到部長很多的答案訊號下一張那我大概整理一下其實我們在碳定價其實碳定價當然不只是碳費那整體的碳定價其實在台灣我認為有最重要的三個考量點這三個第一個是要達成氣候目標第二對接國際第三個是維持境內外產業的公平性部長你同不同意?非常同意委員你完全說出我心裡面因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易\n54520\t82131\t這三個是我們在規劃碳定價最重要的關鍵是在這三件事情上面那當然這幾天我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂臺板CBAN的問題簡單來說臺板CBAN在處理的問題就是剛才說的第三項維持境內外產業的公平性其實這個議題在今年的上半年的時候在應該是3月的時候我其實就有跟上一任的薛部長來去做討論那我知道之前環境部也把是把\n83552\t98666\t臺版的不管是碳關稅或臺版的碳邊境調整機制是放在我整體的比較後面才會去來考慮的那我們現在看到產業上不管是水泥鋼鐵也有很多的討論部長我剛才聽到你在前面的回答但你回答是說\n100588\t120645\t會等2026年歐盟的CBAN正式實施以後那我們來看我們怎麼去處理這個問題可是部長我只想提醒一件事情其實我們現在臺灣產業最主要在臺版CBAN上面的需求它主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係您也很清楚主要是因應可能是我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係\n124188\t151262\t所以它不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟的CBAN的關係所以我們並不是說等到歐盟開始收了CBAN以後我們才要開始我覺得這個邏輯上面不是一個等價的其實這只是一個間接的關係當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠\n152222\t171147\t等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情\n173047\t197252\t那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略的行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情\n198312\t222354\t部長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說你這個邊界要抓得準你不能讓人家亂申報或者是讓他逃掉之類的這個事情\n222774\t237152\t這我們邊界我覺得這部分一定要來參考我們跟國際上面申報的經驗那也包括充分的跟國內的產業的業者包括專業團體來討論避免產業不公平的競爭這是我們剛剛說最重要的一個原則那我下一個下一張\n239375\t266630\t再來一點是不然我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入\n268138\t284852\t當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊\n286980\t298396\t所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放入有放進去成為\n299622\t322769\t可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面\n323349\t323510\t主席\n340717\t367629\t深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎\n370059\t388304\t是,我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你了,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席請彭部長請彭部長彭委員好部長我們碳費的整個包括費率有機制當然現在對外有一定程度的公告了齁\n那我剛才其實前面也聽到部長很多的答案訊號下一張那我大概整理一下其實我們在碳定價其實碳定價當然不只是碳費那整體的碳定價其實在台灣我認為有最重要的三個考量點這三個第一個是要達成氣候目標第二對接國際第三個是維持境內外產業的公平性部長你同不同意?非常同意委員你完全說出我心裡面因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易\n這三個是我們在規劃碳定價最重要的關鍵是在這三件事情上面那當然這幾天我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂臺板CBAN的問題簡單來說臺板CBAN在處理的問題就是剛才說的第三項維持境內外產業的公平性其實這個議題在今年的上半年的時候在應該是3月的時候我其實就有跟上一任的薛部長來去做討論那我知道之前環境部也把是把\n臺版的不管是碳關稅或臺版的碳邊境調整機制是放在我整體的比較後面才會去來考慮的那我們現在看到產業上不管是水泥鋼鐵也有很多的討論部長我剛才聽到你在前面的回答但你回答是說\n會等2026年歐盟的CBAN正式實施以後那我們來看我們怎麼去處理這個問題可是部長我只想提醒一件事情其實我們現在臺灣產業最主要在臺版CBAN上面的需求它主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係您也很清楚主要是因應可能是我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係\n所以它不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟的CBAN的關係所以我們並不是說等到歐盟開始收了CBAN以後我們才要開始我覺得這個邏輯上面不是一個等價的其實這只是一個間接的關係當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠\n等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情\n那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略的行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情\n部長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說你這個邊界要抓得準你不能讓人家亂申報或者是讓他逃掉之類的這個事情\n這我們邊界我覺得這部分一定要來參考我們跟國際上面申報的經驗那也包括充分的跟國內的產業的業者包括專業團體來討論避免產業不公平的競爭這是我們剛剛說最重要的一個原則那我下一個下一張\n再來一點是不然我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入\n當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊\n所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放入有放進去成為\n可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面\n主席\n深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎\n是,我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你了,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.435 --> 00:24.244\n謝謝主席請彭部長請彭部長彭委員好部長我們碳費的整個包括費率有機制當然現在對外有一定程度的公告了齁\n\n00:25.305 --> 00:53.675\n那我剛才其實前面也聽到部長很多的答案訊號下一張那我大概整理一下其實我們在碳定價其實碳定價當然不只是碳費那整體的碳定價其實在台灣我認為有最重要的三個考量點這三個第一個是要達成氣候目標第二對接國際第三個是維持境內外產業的公平性部長你同不同意?非常同意委員你完全說出我心裡面因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易\n\n00:54.520 --> 01:22.131\n這三個是我們在規劃碳定價最重要的關鍵是在這三件事情上面那當然這幾天我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂臺板CBAN的問題簡單來說臺板CBAN在處理的問題就是剛才說的第三項維持境內外產業的公平性其實這個議題在今年的上半年的時候在應該是3月的時候我其實就有跟上一任的薛部長來去做討論那我知道之前環境部也把是把\n\n01:23.552 --> 01:38.666\n臺版的不管是碳關稅或臺版的碳邊境調整機制是放在我整體的比較後面才會去來考慮的那我們現在看到產業上不管是水泥鋼鐵也有很多的討論部長我剛才聽到你在前面的回答但你回答是說\n\n01:40.588 --> 02:00.645\n會等2026年歐盟的CBAN正式實施以後那我們來看我們怎麼去處理這個問題可是部長我只想提醒一件事情其實我們現在臺灣產業最主要在臺版CBAN上面的需求它主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係您也很清楚主要是因應可能是我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係\n\n02:04.188 --> 02:31.262\n所以它不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟的CBAN的關係所以我們並不是說等到歐盟開始收了CBAN以後我們才要開始我覺得這個邏輯上面不是一個等價的其實這只是一個間接的關係當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠\n\n02:32.222 --> 02:51.147\n等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情\n\n02:53.047 --> 03:17.252\n那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略的行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情\n\n03:18.312 --> 03:42.354\n部長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說你這個邊界要抓得準你不能讓人家亂申報或者是讓他逃掉之類的這個事情\n\n03:42.774 --> 03:57.152\n這我們邊界我覺得這部分一定要來參考我們跟國際上面申報的經驗那也包括充分的跟國內的產業的業者包括專業團體來討論避免產業不公平的競爭這是我們剛剛說最重要的一個原則那我下一個下一張\n\n03:59.375 --> 04:26.630\n再來一點是不然我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入\n\n04:28.138 --> 04:44.852\n當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊\n\n04:46.980 --> 04:58.396\n所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放入有放進去成為\n\n04:59.622 --> 05:22.769\n可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面\n\n05:23.349 --> 05:23.510\n主席\n\n05:40.717 --> 06:07.629\n深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎\n\n06:10.059 --> 06:28.304\n是,我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你了,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.435,"end":24.244,"text":"謝謝主席請彭部長請彭部長彭委員好部長我們碳費的整個包括費率有機制當然現在對外有一定程度的公告了齁"},{"start":25.305,"end":53.675,"text":"那我剛才其實前面也聽到部長很多的答案訊號下一張那我大概整理一下其實我們在碳定價其實碳定價當然不只是碳費那整體的碳定價其實在台灣我認為有最重要的三個考量點這三個第一個是要達成氣候目標第二對接國際第三個是維持境內外產業的公平性部長你同不同意?非常同意委員你完全說出我心裡面因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易"},{"start":54.52,"end":82.131,"text":"這三個是我們在規劃碳定價最重要的關鍵是在這三件事情上面那當然這幾天我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂臺板CBAN的問題簡單來說臺板CBAN在處理的問題就是剛才說的第三項維持境內外產業的公平性其實這個議題在今年的上半年的時候在應該是3月的時候我其實就有跟上一任的薛部長來去做討論那我知道之前環境部也把是把"},{"start":83.552,"end":98.666,"text":"臺版的不管是碳關稅或臺版的碳邊境調整機制是放在我整體的比較後面才會去來考慮的那我們現在看到產業上不管是水泥鋼鐵也有很多的討論部長我剛才聽到你在前面的回答但你回答是說"},{"start":100.588,"end":120.645,"text":"會等2026年歐盟的CBAN正式實施以後那我們來看我們怎麼去處理這個問題可是部長我只想提醒一件事情其實我們現在臺灣產業最主要在臺版CBAN上面的需求它主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係您也很清楚主要是因應可能是我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係"},{"start":124.188,"end":151.262,"text":"所以它不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟的CBAN的關係所以我們並不是說等到歐盟開始收了CBAN以後我們才要開始我覺得這個邏輯上面不是一個等價的其實這只是一個間接的關係當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠"},{"start":152.222,"end":171.147,"text":"等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情"},{"start":173.047,"end":197.252,"text":"那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略的行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情"},{"start":198.312,"end":222.354,"text":"部長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說你這個邊界要抓得準你不能讓人家亂申報或者是讓他逃掉之類的這個事情"},{"start":222.774,"end":237.152,"text":"這我們邊界我覺得這部分一定要來參考我們跟國際上面申報的經驗那也包括充分的跟國內的產業的業者包括專業團體來討論避免產業不公平的競爭這是我們剛剛說最重要的一個原則那我下一個下一張"},{"start":239.375,"end":266.63,"text":"再來一點是不然我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入"},{"start":268.138,"end":284.852,"text":"當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊"},{"start":286.98,"end":298.396,"text":"所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放入有放進去成為"},{"start":299.622,"end":322.769,"text":"可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面"},{"start":323.349,"end":323.51,"text":"主席"},{"start":340.717,"end":367.629,"text":"深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎"},{"start":370.059,"end":388.304,"text":"是,我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你了,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:12:32 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12:19:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155442,"gazette":{"lineno":1032,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時12分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，碳費的整個機制，包括費率部分，當然現在對外有一定程度的公告，剛剛前面我也聽到部長很多答詢，大概整理一下，其實碳定價不只是碳費，整體的碳定價，我認為在臺灣有最重要的三個考量點：第一個是要達成氣候目標；第二個是對接國際；第三個是維持境內外產業公平性。部長，同不同意？"],["彭部長啓明：非常同意，委員你完全說出我心裡的話，因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易。"],["洪委員申翰：好，這三個是我們在規劃碳定價時最重要的關鍵。當然我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂的台版CBAM問題，簡單來說，台版CBAM處理的問題就是剛才提到的第三項：維持境內外產業公平性。其實這個議題在今年上半年，應該是3月的時候，我就有跟上一任的薛部長討論過，我知道之前環境部是把台版的不管是碳關稅或碳邊境調整機制，放在整體的比較後面去考慮。我們現在看到產業上，不管是水泥業、鋼鐵業都有很多討論，部長剛才前面的回答表示會等2026年歐盟的CBAM正式實施以後，再來看要如何處理這個問題。可是我想提醒部長一件事情，其實現在臺灣產業在台版CBAM上面的需求，主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係，你應該很清楚……"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員申翰：主要可能是因應我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係，而不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟CBAM的關係。所以不是說等歐盟開始有CBAM以後我們才要開始，我覺得這個在邏輯上不是一個等價關係，而只是間接的關係。當我們的碳費開始收了以後，就會開始產生跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵間價格上或成本上的落差，所以我覺得不能等到歐盟的CBAM開始的時候，我們才開始大張旗鼓來處理這個問題，恐怕我們還要再提前。尤其當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對清楚，收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後，其實現在就該來規劃這件事情，部長覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，這個我會來努力，其實剛才我沒有對外說的是，行政部門也在討論這件事。就是除了要求進口水泥要有排放係數、產出係數的申報之外，在所有的採購裡，也要求要有更強烈的所謂低碳水泥策略行動方案，這是行政部門正在討論的事情。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我這邊有兩點要提醒：第一，我們當然支持台版CBAM，也支持進口水泥、鋼筋要申報，這我們絕對都支持，但有個地方一定要留意，尤其是國外，他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼？我想這是現在產業界很擔心，也很苦惱的事情，就是這個邊界要抓得準，不能讓人家亂申報，或者有讓他逃掉之類的事情，這部分一定要參考國際申報經驗，包括充分的跟國內產業業者、專業團體討論，避免產業不公平競爭，這是我們剛才說的最重要原則。再來一點是，部長剛才提到接下來跟經濟部有一個深度節能計畫，我要提醒一個事情，深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設是能源管理資訊系統，這和經濟部產發署、能源署都有相關。尤其剛才部長講到接下來想要引導包括國發基金、保險基金投入，當你要引導這些基金投入的時候，他們就會開始跟你算效益、利潤在哪裡？這時候，對不起，剛才說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵，因為如果沒有辦法把效益計算清楚，請問那些資金的投入，尤其是私人資金的投入，要怎麼來計算風險，進行風險評估？所以我要再提醒部長一件事，在你們的自主減量計畫管理辦法中，在提升能源效率部分，有把裝設能源管理資訊系統放進去，成為可以選擇的其中一項。但是接下來，環境部手上有碳費誘因機制，能源署手上有深度節能推動計畫，產發署有很多產業輔導工具，這三個部會、三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會整合，到底我們在深度節能的工作裡面，能夠再推進多少？是不是一個月內提出一個更積極、更普及的EMIS（能源管理資訊系統）推廣目標及政策計畫？因為現在在經濟部的深度節能計畫裡，我沒有看到明確的推廣目標及政策目標，這是很可惜的。所以我還是要提醒各部會，包括總統、院長，大家都在講深度節能，可是只要沒有這個EMIS系統，深度節能很可能只是流於概念上的口號而已。這部分希望這三個單位能在一個月內提出一個更完整的EMIS推廣目標及計畫，可以嗎？"],["楊署長志清：是，我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論，我們再提一份報告給委員，請委員指導。"],["洪委員申翰：不是你們的，我是要三個單位一起整合，三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起提出來，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們三個單位是要一起提深度節能計畫的，所以我們會把它放在裡面，一起跟委員報告。"],["洪委員申翰：好，OK，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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