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00:00:26,915\n主席謝謝麻煩請吳次長跟台鐵董事長請吳次長還有杜威董事長來次長好吳彥豪次長知不知道工程會來盤點我們中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的這個預算來講最後一名是哪一個部會\n\n2\n00:00:29,332 --> 00:00:30,352\n臺鐵68個站的耗資系統更新了那當時2021年被\n\n3\n00:00:57,298 --> 00:01:17,330\n說叫做世紀大標案那時候可能也有很多的一個狀態就是說有6家廠商然後得標然後那時候有開標、招標、延宕等等的部分那不管2021年的一個事情嘛但到現在我想請教次長知不知道說這樣的一個標案現在延宕了多久\n\n4\n00:01:19,164 --> 00:01:33,525\n我知道這個是跟應該是西門子公司那原本預計什麼時候這一個整個標案會完成不清楚\n\n5\n00:01:38,291 --> 00:02:02,682\n115那現在要延到118115延到118已經預計延宕兩年了會不會在118如期如始完成不一定但是現在已經延宕兩年了所以才會本席開宗明義先講工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會其中給交通部就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%\n\n6\n00:02:06,784 --> 00:02:34,538\n那我想請教到目前為止臺鐵董事長知道這個案件我們事工單位是不是我們的公務人員也跟你報告說為什麼會延宕那麼久很多原因嘛什麼樣的原因大致上的原因就是疫情還有就是我們的這個得標的製造商西門子他對於這個整個合約的執行他有他一些跟我們不同的看法\n\n7\n00:02:34,918 --> 00:02:50,868\n不同的看法我們是甲方他是乙方他有什麼不同看法那甲方要求他要做當時也應該我們的規格標案等等的設計出來乙方就要執行啊是那因為他的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年\n\n8\n00:02:52,380 --> 00:03:20,177\n這跟委員報告這兩年不是只有這一個不過剛剛講的這個西門子跟我們的這個履約的情形基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神但是他有另外一種看法就是他是同胞的他認為同胞應該是中間有一些可以調整那這個這裡面的項目我這邊就不贅述但是我們現在正在積極的跟他協調\n\n9\n00:03:21,218 --> 00:03:28,423\n主要是廠商的問題佔大部分施工能力不足他自己承攬了之後他的施工能力其實是不足的所以說造成是說對於我們這邊沒有辦法有一個足夠的一個推進再來設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良\n\n10\n00:03:50,967 --> 00:03:52,228\n以及第4點團隊是捷運系統經驗者沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗\n\n11\n00:04:18,527 --> 00:04:44,970\n事情大了我覺得這件事情在81億的耗資整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統並且希望提高可靠度、安全度在2021年的時候做這個標案那時候6家來去標因為是外商大家都來標結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告到最後招標日期一延再延引發異議\n\n12\n00:04:46,584 --> 00:05:05,299\n到最後這一家廠商得標我們都不講說內部有沒有像什麼樣的一個狀況可是沒想到六家廠商照理講選出一家應該是我們認為說最合理最可靠的廠商結果兩年多過去了執行反而這家廠商是有長期溝通不良內部溝通問題還有原來他的\n\n13\n00:05:09,142 --> 00:05:18,165\n團隊是捷運系統經驗者跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣那當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商?這跟委員報告齁這一個案子當初在這個就是投標齁投標的過程齁是我有看過那投資一半我現在在請教啦投資一半\n\n14\n00:05:39,547 --> 00:05:46,192\n能不能完成在2029年還有5年的時間如果說這個團隊持續這樣子我不知道算不算擺爛但是看得出來我們台鐵內部的同仁也覺得說這廠商問題很大\n\n15\n00:06:00,026 --> 00:06:18,759\n那還有市長我都不好意思講這有沒有陣風相關要調查不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標我們也期待國人應該把錢花在刀口上也期待說找到一個好的廠商但結果千挑萬選選到一家這家廠商結果他原來是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗\n\n16\n00:06:21,267 --> 00:06:49,651\n我跟委員報告齁,裡面講的這些問題齁,其實像剛剛講的他的團隊齁,現在他應該有做一些改組,我了解有做一些改組,也就是說西班牙這個的設計團隊現在已經不要他做了,那找比較熟悉的比較好溝通,目前應該走,朝正面的方向在走。那現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嗎?對,是台鐵工程是比較沒那麼容易,對。\n\n17\n00:06:51,431 --> 00:07:13,560\n市長我想我還是希望是說這個計畫當初大家都講世紀大標案就是因為台鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億然後全台灣的號誌要做一個改變如果說能夠改變能夠一體當然好但現在重點在於是說過了兩三年之後看到這樣的一些問題而延宕了兩年來我們再看下一張喔我就一併講這個是在我們這個\n\n18\n00:07:24,823 --> 00:07:47,925\n應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫交通部洋洋灑灑計畫執行率其中裡面很多計畫你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫執行率差了12%你看延伸相關的一些計畫執行率都是有差2、30%甚至還有\n\n19\n00:07:49,977 --> 00:08:15,527\n你看最後新車安全平等精進計畫應該現在預計執行率50%結果是0%執行我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行錢到位了要人給人要錢給錢要台鐵從局變成公司也變了招牌也掛了\n\n20\n00:08:16,854 --> 00:08:39,877\n但是該做的事情要拿出來要做安全要精進那還有剛剛的80億的這個標案本席會持續的來關心已經延宕了兩年還有裡面有沒有人謀不章的部分該啟動調查請也啟動調查那次長你剛剛也講了有滾動檢討是不是是不是可以在這個禮拜\n\n21\n00:08:41,511 --> 00:09:06,363\n給本席一份資料針對這一個部分現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候2028年之前你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去能夠確保2028年、2029年能夠完成是不是可以兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜可以但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題那如果說最嚴重的話廠商\n\n22\n00:09:07,608 --> 00:09:18,052\n我們除了罰款除了他如果說一直不配合我不知道看起來他是溝通不良他明明是乙方但怎麼那麼囂張還在西班牙團隊還要逼我們去換設計團隊\n\n23\n00:09:19,974 --> 00:09:20,234\n謝謝洪孟楷委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3291\t26915\t主席謝謝 麻煩請吳次長跟台鐵董事長請吳次長還有杜威董事長來 次長好吳彥豪次長知不知道工程會來盤點我們中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的這個預算來講最後一名是哪一個部會\n29332\t30352\t臺鐵68個站的耗資系統更新了那當時2021年被\n57298\t77330\t說叫做世紀大標案那時候可能也有很多的一個狀態就是說有6家廠商然後得標然後那時候有開標、招標、延宕等等的部分那不管2021年的一個事情嘛但到現在我想請教次長知不知道說這樣的一個標案現在延宕了多久\n79164\t93525\t我知道這個是跟應該是西門子公司那原本預計什麼時候這一個整個標案會完成不清楚\n98291\t122682\t115那現在要延到118115延到118已經預計延宕兩年了會不會在118如期如始完成不一定但是現在已經延宕兩年了所以才會本席開宗明義先講工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會其中給交通部就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%\n126784\t154538\t那我想請教到目前為止臺鐵董事長知道這個案件我們事工單位是不是我們的公務人員也跟你報告說為什麼會延宕那麼久很多原因嘛 什麼樣的原因大致上的原因就是疫情還有就是我們的這個得標的製造商西門子他對於這個整個合約的執行他有他一些跟我們不同的看法\n154918\t170868\t不同的看法我們是甲方他是乙方他有什麼不同看法那甲方要求他要做當時也應該我們的規格標案等等的設計出來乙方就要執行啊是那因為他的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年\n172380\t200177\t這跟委員報告這兩年不是只有這一個不過剛剛講的這個西門子跟我們的這個履約的情形基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神但是他有另外一種看法就是他是同胞的他認為同胞應該是中間有一些可以調整那這個這裡面的項目我這邊就不贅述但是我們現在正在積極的跟他協調\n201218\t208423\t主要是廠商的問題佔大部分施工能力不足他自己承攬了之後他的施工能力其實是不足的所以說造成是說對於我們這邊沒有辦法有一個足夠的一個推進再來設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良\n230967\t232228\t以及第4點團隊是捷運系統經驗者沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗\n258527\t284970\t事情大了我覺得這件事情在81億的耗資整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統並且希望提高可靠度、安全度在2021年的時候做這個標案那時候6家來去標因為是外商大家都來標結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告到最後招標日期一延再延引發異議\n286584\t305299\t到最後這一家廠商得標我們都不講說內部有沒有像什麼樣的一個狀況可是沒想到六家廠商照理講選出一家應該是我們認為說最合理最可靠的廠商結果兩年多過去了執行反而這家廠商是有長期溝通不良內部溝通問題還有原來他的\n309142\t318165\t團隊是捷運系統經驗者跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣那當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商?這跟委員報告齁這一個案子當初在這個就是投標齁投標的過程齁是我有看過那投資一半我現在在請教啦投資一半\n339547\t346192\t能不能完成在2029年還有5年的時間如果說這個團隊持續這樣子我不知道算不算擺爛但是看得出來我們台鐵內部的同仁也覺得說這廠商問題很大\n360026\t378759\t那還有市長我都不好意思講這有沒有陣風相關要調查不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標我們也期待國人應該把錢花在刀口上也期待說找到一個好的廠商但結果千挑萬選選到一家這家廠商結果他原來是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗\n381267\t409651\t我跟委員報告齁,裡面講的這些問題齁,其實像剛剛講的他的團隊齁,現在他應該有做一些改組,我了解有做一些改組,也就是說西班牙這個的設計團隊現在已經不要他做了,那找比較熟悉的比較好溝通,目前應該走,朝正面的方向在走。那現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嗎?對,是台鐵工程是比較沒那麼容易,對。\n411431\t433560\t市長我想我還是希望是說這個計畫當初大家都講世紀大標案就是因為台鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億然後全台灣的號誌要做一個改變如果說能夠改變能夠一體當然好但現在重點在於是說過了兩三年之後看到這樣的一些問題而延宕了兩年來我們再看下一張喔我就一併講這個是在我們這個\n444823\t467925\t應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫交通部洋洋灑灑計畫執行率其中裡面很多計畫你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫執行率差了12%你看延伸相關的一些計畫執行率都是有差2、30%甚至還有\n469977\t495527\t你看最後新車安全平等精進計畫應該現在預計執行率50%結果是0%執行我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行錢到位了要人給人要錢給錢要台鐵從局變成公司也變了招牌也掛了\n496854\t519877\t但是該做的事情要拿出來要做安全要精進那還有剛剛的80億的這個標案本席會持續的來關心已經延宕了兩年還有裡面有沒有人謀不章的部分該啟動調查請也啟動調查那次長你剛剛也講了有滾動檢討是不是是不是可以在這個禮拜\n521511\t546363\t給本席一份資料針對這一個部分現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候2028年之前你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去能夠確保2028年、2029年能夠完成是不是可以兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜可以但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題那如果說最嚴重的話廠商\n547608\t558052\t我們除了罰款除了他如果說一直不配合我不知道看起來他是溝通不良他明明是乙方但怎麼那麼囂張還在西班牙團隊還要逼我們去換設計團隊\n559974\t560234\t謝謝洪孟楷委員\n","txt":"主席謝謝 麻煩請吳次長跟台鐵董事長請吳次長還有杜威董事長來 次長好吳彥豪次長知不知道工程會來盤點我們中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的這個預算來講最後一名是哪一個部會\n臺鐵68個站的耗資系統更新了那當時2021年被\n說叫做世紀大標案那時候可能也有很多的一個狀態就是說有6家廠商然後得標然後那時候有開標、招標、延宕等等的部分那不管2021年的一個事情嘛但到現在我想請教次長知不知道說這樣的一個標案現在延宕了多久\n我知道這個是跟應該是西門子公司那原本預計什麼時候這一個整個標案會完成不清楚\n115那現在要延到118115延到118已經預計延宕兩年了會不會在118如期如始完成不一定但是現在已經延宕兩年了所以才會本席開宗明義先講工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會其中給交通部就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%\n那我想請教到目前為止臺鐵董事長知道這個案件我們事工單位是不是我們的公務人員也跟你報告說為什麼會延宕那麼久很多原因嘛 什麼樣的原因大致上的原因就是疫情還有就是我們的這個得標的製造商西門子他對於這個整個合約的執行他有他一些跟我們不同的看法\n不同的看法我們是甲方他是乙方他有什麼不同看法那甲方要求他要做當時也應該我們的規格標案等等的設計出來乙方就要執行啊是那因為他的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年\n這跟委員報告這兩年不是只有這一個不過剛剛講的這個西門子跟我們的這個履約的情形基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神但是他有另外一種看法就是他是同胞的他認為同胞應該是中間有一些可以調整那這個這裡面的項目我這邊就不贅述但是我們現在正在積極的跟他協調\n主要是廠商的問題佔大部分施工能力不足他自己承攬了之後他的施工能力其實是不足的所以說造成是說對於我們這邊沒有辦法有一個足夠的一個推進再來設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良\n以及第4點團隊是捷運系統經驗者沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗\n事情大了我覺得這件事情在81億的耗資整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統並且希望提高可靠度、安全度在2021年的時候做這個標案那時候6家來去標因為是外商大家都來標結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告到最後招標日期一延再延引發異議\n到最後這一家廠商得標我們都不講說內部有沒有像什麼樣的一個狀況可是沒想到六家廠商照理講選出一家應該是我們認為說最合理最可靠的廠商結果兩年多過去了執行反而這家廠商是有長期溝通不良內部溝通問題還有原來他的\n團隊是捷運系統經驗者跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣那當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商?這跟委員報告齁這一個案子當初在這個就是投標齁投標的過程齁是我有看過那投資一半我現在在請教啦投資一半\n能不能完成在2029年還有5年的時間如果說這個團隊持續這樣子我不知道算不算擺爛但是看得出來我們台鐵內部的同仁也覺得說這廠商問題很大\n那還有市長我都不好意思講這有沒有陣風相關要調查不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標我們也期待國人應該把錢花在刀口上也期待說找到一個好的廠商但結果千挑萬選選到一家這家廠商結果他原來是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗\n我跟委員報告齁,裡面講的這些問題齁,其實像剛剛講的他的團隊齁,現在他應該有做一些改組,我了解有做一些改組,也就是說西班牙這個的設計團隊現在已經不要他做了,那找比較熟悉的比較好溝通,目前應該走,朝正面的方向在走。那現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嗎?對,是台鐵工程是比較沒那麼容易,對。\n市長我想我還是希望是說這個計畫當初大家都講世紀大標案就是因為台鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億然後全台灣的號誌要做一個改變如果說能夠改變能夠一體當然好但現在重點在於是說過了兩三年之後看到這樣的一些問題而延宕了兩年來我們再看下一張喔我就一併講這個是在我們這個\n應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫交通部洋洋灑灑計畫執行率其中裡面很多計畫你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫執行率差了12%你看延伸相關的一些計畫執行率都是有差2、30%甚至還有\n你看最後新車安全平等精進計畫應該現在預計執行率50%結果是0%執行我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行錢到位了要人給人要錢給錢要台鐵從局變成公司也變了招牌也掛了\n但是該做的事情要拿出來要做安全要精進那還有剛剛的80億的這個標案本席會持續的來關心已經延宕了兩年還有裡面有沒有人謀不章的部分該啟動調查請也啟動調查那次長你剛剛也講了有滾動檢討是不是是不是可以在這個禮拜\n給本席一份資料針對這一個部分現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候2028年之前你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去能夠確保2028年、2029年能夠完成是不是可以兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜可以但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題那如果說最嚴重的話廠商\n我們除了罰款除了他如果說一直不配合我不知道看起來他是溝通不良他明明是乙方但怎麼那麼囂張還在西班牙團隊還要逼我們去換設計團隊\n謝謝洪孟楷委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.291 --> 00:26.915\n主席謝謝麻煩請吳次長跟台鐵董事長請吳次長還有杜威董事長來次長好吳彥豪次長知不知道工程會來盤點我們中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的這個預算來講最後一名是哪一個部會\n\n00:29.332 --> 00:30.352\n臺鐵68個站的耗資系統更新了那當時2021年被\n\n00:57.298 --> 01:17.330\n說叫做世紀大標案那時候可能也有很多的一個狀態就是說有6家廠商然後得標然後那時候有開標、招標、延宕等等的部分那不管2021年的一個事情嘛但到現在我想請教次長知不知道說這樣的一個標案現在延宕了多久\n\n01:19.164 --> 01:33.525\n我知道這個是跟應該是西門子公司那原本預計什麼時候這一個整個標案會完成不清楚\n\n01:38.291 --> 02:02.682\n115那現在要延到118115延到118已經預計延宕兩年了會不會在118如期如始完成不一定但是現在已經延宕兩年了所以才會本席開宗明義先講工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會其中給交通部就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%\n\n02:06.784 --> 02:34.538\n那我想請教到目前為止臺鐵董事長知道這個案件我們事工單位是不是我們的公務人員也跟你報告說為什麼會延宕那麼久很多原因嘛什麼樣的原因大致上的原因就是疫情還有就是我們的這個得標的製造商西門子他對於這個整個合約的執行他有他一些跟我們不同的看法\n\n02:34.918 --> 02:50.868\n不同的看法我們是甲方他是乙方他有什麼不同看法那甲方要求他要做當時也應該我們的規格標案等等的設計出來乙方就要執行啊是那因為他的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年\n\n02:52.380 --> 03:20.177\n這跟委員報告這兩年不是只有這一個不過剛剛講的這個西門子跟我們的這個履約的情形基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神但是他有另外一種看法就是他是同胞的他認為同胞應該是中間有一些可以調整那這個這裡面的項目我這邊就不贅述但是我們現在正在積極的跟他協調\n\n03:21.218 --> 03:28.423\n主要是廠商的問題佔大部分施工能力不足他自己承攬了之後他的施工能力其實是不足的所以說造成是說對於我們這邊沒有辦法有一個足夠的一個推進再來設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良\n\n03:50.967 --> 03:52.228\n以及第4點團隊是捷運系統經驗者沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗\n\n04:18.527 --> 04:44.970\n事情大了我覺得這件事情在81億的耗資整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統並且希望提高可靠度、安全度在2021年的時候做這個標案那時候6家來去標因為是外商大家都來標結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告到最後招標日期一延再延引發異議\n\n04:46.584 --> 05:05.299\n到最後這一家廠商得標我們都不講說內部有沒有像什麼樣的一個狀況可是沒想到六家廠商照理講選出一家應該是我們認為說最合理最可靠的廠商結果兩年多過去了執行反而這家廠商是有長期溝通不良內部溝通問題還有原來他的\n\n05:09.142 --> 05:18.165\n團隊是捷運系統經驗者跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣那當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商?這跟委員報告齁這一個案子當初在這個就是投標齁投標的過程齁是我有看過那投資一半我現在在請教啦投資一半\n\n05:39.547 --> 05:46.192\n能不能完成在2029年還有5年的時間如果說這個團隊持續這樣子我不知道算不算擺爛但是看得出來我們台鐵內部的同仁也覺得說這廠商問題很大\n\n06:00.026 --> 06:18.759\n那還有市長我都不好意思講這有沒有陣風相關要調查不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標我們也期待國人應該把錢花在刀口上也期待說找到一個好的廠商但結果千挑萬選選到一家這家廠商結果他原來是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗\n\n06:21.267 --> 06:49.651\n我跟委員報告齁,裡面講的這些問題齁,其實像剛剛講的他的團隊齁,現在他應該有做一些改組,我了解有做一些改組,也就是說西班牙這個的設計團隊現在已經不要他做了,那找比較熟悉的比較好溝通,目前應該走,朝正面的方向在走。那現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嗎?對,是台鐵工程是比較沒那麼容易,對。\n\n06:51.431 --> 07:13.560\n市長我想我還是希望是說這個計畫當初大家都講世紀大標案就是因為台鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億然後全台灣的號誌要做一個改變如果說能夠改變能夠一體當然好但現在重點在於是說過了兩三年之後看到這樣的一些問題而延宕了兩年來我們再看下一張喔我就一併講這個是在我們這個\n\n07:24.823 --> 07:47.925\n應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫交通部洋洋灑灑計畫執行率其中裡面很多計畫你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫執行率差了12%你看延伸相關的一些計畫執行率都是有差2、30%甚至還有\n\n07:49.977 --> 08:15.527\n你看最後新車安全平等精進計畫應該現在預計執行率50%結果是0%執行我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行錢到位了要人給人要錢給錢要台鐵從局變成公司也變了招牌也掛了\n\n08:16.854 --> 08:39.877\n但是該做的事情要拿出來要做安全要精進那還有剛剛的80億的這個標案本席會持續的來關心已經延宕了兩年還有裡面有沒有人謀不章的部分該啟動調查請也啟動調查那次長你剛剛也講了有滾動檢討是不是是不是可以在這個禮拜\n\n08:41.511 --> 09:06.363\n給本席一份資料針對這一個部分現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候2028年之前你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去能夠確保2028年、2029年能夠完成是不是可以兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜可以但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題那如果說最嚴重的話廠商\n\n09:07.608 --> 09:18.052\n我們除了罰款除了他如果說一直不配合我不知道看起來他是溝通不良他明明是乙方但怎麼那麼囂張還在西班牙團隊還要逼我們去換設計團隊\n\n09:19.974 --> 09:20.234\n謝謝洪孟楷委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.291,"end":26.915,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請吳次長跟台鐵董事長請吳次長還有杜威董事長來 次長好吳彥豪次長知不知道工程會來盤點我們中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的這個預算來講最後一名是哪一個部會"},{"start":29.332,"end":30.352,"text":"臺鐵68個站的耗資系統更新了那當時2021年被"},{"start":57.298,"end":77.33,"text":"說叫做世紀大標案那時候可能也有很多的一個狀態就是說有6家廠商然後得標然後那時候有開標、招標、延宕等等的部分那不管2021年的一個事情嘛但到現在我想請教次長知不知道說這樣的一個標案現在延宕了多久"},{"start":79.164,"end":93.525,"text":"我知道這個是跟應該是西門子公司那原本預計什麼時候這一個整個標案會完成不清楚"},{"start":98.291,"end":122.682,"text":"115那現在要延到118115延到118已經預計延宕兩年了會不會在118如期如始完成不一定但是現在已經延宕兩年了所以才會本席開宗明義先講工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會其中給交通部就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%"},{"start":126.784,"end":154.538,"text":"那我想請教到目前為止臺鐵董事長知道這個案件我們事工單位是不是我們的公務人員也跟你報告說為什麼會延宕那麼久很多原因嘛 什麼樣的原因大致上的原因就是疫情還有就是我們的這個得標的製造商西門子他對於這個整個合約的執行他有他一些跟我們不同的看法"},{"start":154.918,"end":170.868,"text":"不同的看法我們是甲方他是乙方他有什麼不同看法那甲方要求他要做當時也應該我們的規格標案等等的設計出來乙方就要執行啊是那因為他的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年"},{"start":172.38,"end":200.177,"text":"這跟委員報告這兩年不是只有這一個不過剛剛講的這個西門子跟我們的這個履約的情形基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神但是他有另外一種看法就是他是同胞的他認為同胞應該是中間有一些可以調整那這個這裡面的項目我這邊就不贅述但是我們現在正在積極的跟他協調"},{"start":201.218,"end":208.423,"text":"主要是廠商的問題佔大部分施工能力不足他自己承攬了之後他的施工能力其實是不足的所以說造成是說對於我們這邊沒有辦法有一個足夠的一個推進再來設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良"},{"start":230.967,"end":232.228,"text":"以及第4點團隊是捷運系統經驗者沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗"},{"start":258.527,"end":284.97,"text":"事情大了我覺得這件事情在81億的耗資整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統並且希望提高可靠度、安全度在2021年的時候做這個標案那時候6家來去標因為是外商大家都來標結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告到最後招標日期一延再延引發異議"},{"start":286.584,"end":305.299,"text":"到最後這一家廠商得標我們都不講說內部有沒有像什麼樣的一個狀況可是沒想到六家廠商照理講選出一家應該是我們認為說最合理最可靠的廠商結果兩年多過去了執行反而這家廠商是有長期溝通不良內部溝通問題還有原來他的"},{"start":309.142,"end":318.165,"text":"團隊是捷運系統經驗者跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣那當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商?這跟委員報告齁這一個案子當初在這個就是投標齁投標的過程齁是我有看過那投資一半我現在在請教啦投資一半"},{"start":339.547,"end":346.192,"text":"能不能完成在2029年還有5年的時間如果說這個團隊持續這樣子我不知道算不算擺爛但是看得出來我們台鐵內部的同仁也覺得說這廠商問題很大"},{"start":360.026,"end":378.759,"text":"那還有市長我都不好意思講這有沒有陣風相關要調查不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標我們也期待國人應該把錢花在刀口上也期待說找到一個好的廠商但結果千挑萬選選到一家這家廠商結果他原來是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗"},{"start":381.267,"end":409.651,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,裡面講的這些問題齁,其實像剛剛講的他的團隊齁,現在他應該有做一些改組,我了解有做一些改組,也就是說西班牙這個的設計團隊現在已經不要他做了,那找比較熟悉的比較好溝通,目前應該走,朝正面的方向在走。那現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嗎?對,是台鐵工程是比較沒那麼容易,對。"},{"start":411.431,"end":433.56,"text":"市長我想我還是希望是說這個計畫當初大家都講世紀大標案就是因為台鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億然後全台灣的號誌要做一個改變如果說能夠改變能夠一體當然好但現在重點在於是說過了兩三年之後看到這樣的一些問題而延宕了兩年來我們再看下一張喔我就一併講這個是在我們這個"},{"start":444.823,"end":467.925,"text":"應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫交通部洋洋灑灑計畫執行率其中裡面很多計畫你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫執行率差了12%你看延伸相關的一些計畫執行率都是有差2、30%甚至還有"},{"start":469.977,"end":495.527,"text":"你看最後新車安全平等精進計畫應該現在預計執行率50%結果是0%執行我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行錢到位了要人給人要錢給錢要台鐵從局變成公司也變了招牌也掛了"},{"start":496.854,"end":519.877,"text":"但是該做的事情要拿出來要做安全要精進那還有剛剛的80億的這個標案本席會持續的來關心已經延宕了兩年還有裡面有沒有人謀不章的部分該啟動調查請也啟動調查那次長你剛剛也講了有滾動檢討是不是是不是可以在這個禮拜"},{"start":521.511,"end":546.363,"text":"給本席一份資料針對這一個部分現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候2028年之前你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去能夠確保2028年、2029年能夠完成是不是可以兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜可以但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題那如果說最嚴重的話廠商"},{"start":547.608,"end":558.052,"text":"我們除了罰款除了他如果說一直不配合我不知道看起來他是溝通不良他明明是乙方但怎麼那麼囂張還在西班牙團隊還要逼我們去換設計團隊"},{"start":559.974,"end":560.234,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:43:52 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12:53:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155455,"gazette":{"lineno":900,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時43分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請伍次長及臺鐵董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長，還有杜微董事長。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你知不知道工程會盤點中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的預算來講，最後一名是哪一個部會？"],["伍次長勝園：最後，是不是？"],["洪委員孟楷：對，最後，就是已經有得標了，但是預算龐大，現在執行率是不力的，就是速度是緩慢的，知道是哪個部會嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：我沒有掌握這個，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：是交通部。"],["伍次長勝園：應該不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：其中交通部有一個81億元的號誌系統，就是要幫臺鐵68個站的號誌系統更新，當時2021年被說叫做世紀大標案，那時候可能也有很多的狀態，就是有6家廠商投標，那時候有開標、招標延宕等等的部分，這些都不管，那是2021年的事情，但到現在，我想請教，次長知不知道這樣的標案現在延宕了多久？"],["伍次長勝園：我知道應該是跟西門子公司的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，原本預計什麼時候整個標案會完成？不清楚？"],["伍次長勝園：對不起，115年。"],["洪委員孟楷：115年。"],["伍次長勝園：現在要延到118年。"],["洪委員孟楷：115年延到118年，已經預計延宕兩年了，會不會在118年如期如實完成還不一定，但是現在已經延宕兩年了，所以本席才會開宗明義講到工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會，其中也給了交通部，就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%。我想請教，到目前為止，臺鐵董事長知道這個案件……"],["杜董事長微：知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：施工單位、公務人員是不是也跟你報告為什麼會延宕那麼久？"],["杜董事長微：是，主要就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：很多原因嘛，什麼樣的原因？"],["杜董事長微：大致上的原因就是疫情，還有得標的製造商西門子對於整個合約的執行，有一些跟我們不同的看法……"],["洪委員孟楷：不同的看法？"],["杜董事長微：對，就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們是甲方，它是乙方，它有什麼不同看法？甲方要求它要做，當時我們的規格、標案等等的設計出來，乙方就要執行。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為它的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這兩年不是只有這一個，不過剛剛講的西門子跟我們的履約情形，基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神，但是它有另外一種看法，就是它是統包的，它認為統包應該是中間有一些可以調整，這裡面的項目我就不贅述了，但是我們現在正在積極地跟它協調，希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：積極跟它協調？"],["杜董事長微：對，希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道我們5月的時候應該是有開會、有討論，本席也去做了一些了解。我們看一下，其實主要是廠商的問題占大部分：施工人力不足，它自己承攬了之後，它的施工人力其實是不足的，所以造成對於我們這邊沒有辦法有足夠的推進；再來，設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良，乙方的人已經得到我們的標，結果它的設計團隊在西班牙，居然我們要求它來做整個號誌的串聯，它沒有辦法溝通；還有第三點，它臺籍團隊跟西班牙的管理人員內部還有溝通問題；第四點，團隊是捷運系統經驗者，沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗。事情嚴重囉！我覺得這件事情，81億的號誌整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統，並且希望提高可靠度、安全度，在2021年的時候做這個標案，那時候6家去標，因為是外商，大家都來標，結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告等問題，招標日期一延再延，引發異議，到最後這家廠商得標。我們都不講內部有沒有什麼樣的狀況，可是沒想到從6家廠商選出了1家，照理講應該是我們認為最合理、最可靠的廠商，結果執行兩年多過去了，反而這家廠商有長期溝通不良、內部溝通問題，還有原來它的團隊是捷運系統經驗者，跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣，當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個案子當初在投標的過程，我有看過……"],["洪委員孟楷：頭洗了一半。我現在請教你，頭洗了一半，能不能完成？你剛剛講2029年、118年……"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，2029年，還有5年的時間。"],["杜董事長微：是，就是剛剛……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果這個團隊持續這樣子，我不知道這算不算擺爛，但是看得出來，臺鐵內部的同仁也覺得這個廠商的問題很大。還有，次長，我都不好意思講這有沒有政風相關要調查？不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標，我們國人也期待應該把錢花在刀口上，也期待說找到一個好的廠商，但結果千挑萬選，選到一家這家廠商，結果它原來是捷運系統經驗者，沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗。"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，裡面講的這些問題，其實像剛剛講它的團隊，現在它應該有做一些改組了，我了解有做一些改組，也就是說，西班牙的設計團隊現在已經不要它做了，找比較熟悉的也比較好溝通，目前應該朝正面的方向在走。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：對，臺鐵工程比較沒那麼容易，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我想我還是希望，這個計畫當初大家會講說世紀大標案，就是因為臺鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億，然後全臺灣的號誌要做一個改變，如果說能夠改變、能夠一體當然好，但現在重點在於過了兩、三年之後，看到這樣的一些問題，而延宕了兩年，我們再看下一張，我就一併講，這個應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫，交通部洋洋灑灑，計畫、執行率，其中裡面很多計畫，你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫，執行率差了12%，你看延伸相關的一些計畫，執行率都是有差百分之二、三十，甚至還有你看最後新車安全評等精進計畫，應該現在預計執行率50%，結果是0%執行，我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部，不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行，錢到位了，要人給人、要錢給錢，要臺鐵從局變成公司也變了，招牌也掛了，但是該做的事情要拿出來要做，安全要精進。還有剛剛80億的這個標案，本席會持續關心，已經延宕了兩年，還有裡面有沒有人謀不臧的部分，該啟動調查請也啟動調查，次長，你剛剛也講了，有滾動檢討是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是可以在這個禮拜給本席一份資料，針對這個部分，現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候？2028年之前，你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去確保2028年、2029年能夠完成？"],["伍次長勝園：兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜可以，但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題，如果說最嚴重的話，廠商我們除了罰款，它如果說一直不配合，我不知道，看起來它是溝通不良，它明明是乙方，但怎麼那麼囂張！還西班牙團隊！還逼我們去換設計團隊！真的感覺很奇怪。"],["伍次長勝園：我想這個跟委員報告，現在臺鐵為了這個成立一個PMO的小組，由總經理……我印象中是兩個禮拜就開始一次會，我想後續這部分，我會再督促臺鐵能夠再加速。"],["洪委員孟楷：我了解，但是81億人民的納稅錢，把它做好，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。在這邊本席希望我們交通部、臺鐵公司，剛剛洪委員要求的這個報告，同時要給我們交通委員會的委員每一個人一份，謝謝。","接下來邀請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","黃國昌","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","游顥","邱若華","劉建國","林沛祥","葉元之"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股\n份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00002"}}}