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\"end\": 767.644, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 793.66, \"end\": 793.78, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 793.78, \"end\": 793.88, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 793.88, \"end\": 793.94, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 793.94, \"end\": 794.0, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 794.0, \"end\": 794.02, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,281 --> 00:00:10,962\n李委員好部長,我們現在供第6次的碳費費率審議會確定了碳費徵收的費率但是這個決議啊,距離有效推動減碳的目標相去甚遠今天質詢的委員都覺得說這樣企業怎麼活啊現在大家都沒競爭力啊但是我要持不同的意見就是說\n\n2\n00:00:36,972 --> 00:00:54,036\n你這個推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠以外,它可能還使台灣在國際碳邊境,就是C-band之下,處於不利的位置,而且會拖累了我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍,我必須要再講說,以這個歐盟鋼鐵製品為例,台灣\n\n3\n00:01:02,078 --> 00:01:15,689\n這3年平均的輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模?我記得數字大概5、6億左右什麼5、6億?台灣是39.72億美金美金我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面我們輸出到歐盟佔了幾個百分比?\n\n4\n00:01:31,616 --> 00:01:48,494\n18.79將近兩成我們鋼鐵外銷的將近兩成都是賣給歐盟啊所以這個CBAN的這個機制對台灣影響很大那我今天講說我們碳費你現在公告的費率也遠低於國際標準所以我們今天很害怕就是說\n\n5\n00:01:50,316 --> 00:02:04,707\n明年還沒有要起徵喔那在這種狀況裡面你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳那你們現在一般費率一公噸是300元優惠的方案B是一公噸100元優惠的方案A方案是一公噸50元那這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的\n\n6\n00:02:16,897 --> 00:02:38,426\n那歐盟碳交易市場因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵以鋼鐵業為例就不要講電子產品以鋼鐵業為例歐盟的碳交易市場一公噸是多少錢70塊歐元左右70塊歐元台幣新台幣2500元以美國環保署去估算每噸的碳排放它的外部成本\n\n7\n00:02:39,486 --> 00:02:43,288\n外部成本丟給社會去承擔的一公噸是190美元就相當於新台幣6100元才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度倫敦政經學院的研究團隊講說台灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3000元當然倫敦政經學院講是他的事但是\n\n8\n00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:34,255\n我們要根據台灣氣候行動網絡的研究人家民間有做了一個研究他說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B啦一公噸一百塊啦然後大家都在講說高碳洩漏的風險企業還要享有排放量調整係數值的折扣所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業有可能他的費率會是繳多少錢一公噸\n\n9\n00:03:35,725 --> 00:03:50,254\n所以剩下20元啦那我現在在跟你講我要的高碳洩漏這幾個字喔是以前的概念啦現在的概念一個台塑合淨廠拖幾年你跟我說從他們預計計劃興建到可以運作拖幾年高碳洩漏這假議題啦\n\n10\n00:04:00,492 --> 00:04:15,203\n用高碳洩漏的概念然後來給企業打折我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去人家就要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠台灣不好意思要刷去外國去簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊不是十年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險然後再給你打兩折\n\n11\n00:04:27,765 --> 00:04:30,848\n所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的。那高碳洩漏,物量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業,只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少,都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊。\n\n12\n00:04:49,108 --> 00:05:05,004\n那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元\n\n13\n00:05:07,952 --> 00:05:26,316\n你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏在打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢\n\n14\n00:05:37,810 --> 00:05:40,434\n民間也幫你賺了13.7億台積電繳多少?10億10.4億中油繳多少?不到1億中鋼繳多少?\n\n15\n00:05:55,700 --> 00:06:10,265\n不到兩億啦!所以人家都幫你們算了!所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是\n\n16\n00:06:18,289 --> 00:06:26,214\n欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才有說過啦,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,\n\n17\n00:06:41,687 --> 00:06:55,419\n都已經要執行了如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課\n\n18\n00:07:06,591 --> 00:07:18,717\n再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦\n\n19\n00:07:20,956 --> 00:07:48,028\n我先來說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年但各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價\n\n20\n00:07:49,349 --> 00:08:03,185\n丹麥、加拿大、河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。\n\n21\n00:08:09,571 --> 00:08:33,086\n那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去\n\n22\n00:08:36,059 --> 00:08:42,344\n你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換修律系數對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度\n\n23\n00:08:55,656 --> 00:09:10,804\n會達不到那個標準嗎?包委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證\n\n24\n00:09:23,070 --> 00:09:32,573\n施工已經沒有留在台灣：所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平：現在企增價過低：未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力：這不是我們立委都這麼親切公共：大多數都不用叫啦\n\n25\n00:09:41,226 --> 00:10:04,201\n但是事實上呢這個像油電價格補貼想有排一噸碳高達一千元以上的補貼在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生外部成本每噸是五千七百元結果他們光是一個碳費一噸二十元說得過去嗎\n\n26\n00:10:05,442 --> 00:10:27,462\n所以碳費的課徵其實矯正這種不公平的第一步留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用當然部長這樣一般費率300元大多數事實上都課不到300元遠低於國際水準你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告\n\n27\n00:10:29,107 --> 00:10:49,238\n報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久對阿還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度沒有很高阿因為你扣二十塊到十塊大多少\n\n28\n00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:56,280\n而且不要忘了,你們盤點的繳費是一場一場,譬如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了,它是一個場一個場去計算的。喔,整個台塑?是嗎?你們兩萬五的Quota扣減額度,兩萬五一場一場,你搞不清楚,不是我搞不清楚,每一場都擁有兩萬五千公噸的免費額。\n\n29\n00:11:14,625 --> 00:11:16,907\n所以整個台塑如果20個廠,大概20個廠減掉2萬5,跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5,變成25萬噸的減碳欸,那個免費額欸,所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了,並不是沒有,然後再高碳排再優惠,再打兩折,打一折打兩折,竟然沒有100元啦,\n\n30\n00:11:42,188 --> 00:12:10,464\n所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢\n\n31\n00:12:11,567 --> 00:12:12,615\n我們在這裡先講好喔\n\n32\n00:12:14,645 --> 00:12:20,588\n所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為所未為討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦\n\n33\n00:12:43,061 --> 00:12:47,644\n所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是二十個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不可以說三百塊啦一檔叫二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦\n\n34\n00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:14,020\n法定人數不足\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7281\t10962\t李委員好部長,我們現在供第6次的碳費費率審議會確定了碳費徵收的費率但是這個決議啊,距離有效推動減碳的目標相去甚遠今天質詢的委員都覺得說這樣企業怎麼活啊現在大家都沒競爭力啊但是我要持不同的意見就是說\n36972\t54036\t你這個推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠以外,它可能還使台灣在國際碳邊境,就是C-band之下,處於不利的位置,而且會拖累了我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍,我必須要再講說,以這個歐盟鋼鐵製品為例,台灣\n62078\t75689\t這3年平均的輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模?我記得數字大概5、6億左右什麼5、6億?台灣是39.72億美金美金我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面我們輸出到歐盟佔了幾個百分比?\n91616\t108494\t18.79將近兩成我們鋼鐵外銷的將近兩成都是賣給歐盟啊所以這個CBAN的這個機制對台灣影響很大那我今天講說我們碳費你現在公告的費率也遠低於國際標準所以我們今天很害怕就是說\n110316\t124707\t明年還沒有要起徵喔那在這種狀況裡面你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳那你們現在一般費率一公噸是300元優惠的方案B是一公噸100元優惠的方案A方案是一公噸50元那這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的\n136897\t158426\t那歐盟碳交易市場因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵以鋼鐵業為例就不要講電子產品以鋼鐵業為例歐盟的碳交易市場一公噸是多少錢70塊歐元左右70塊歐元台幣新台幣2500元以美國環保署去估算每噸的碳排放它的外部成本\n159486\t163288\t外部成本丟給社會去承擔的一公噸是190美元就相當於新台幣6100元才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度倫敦政經學院的研究團隊講說台灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3000元當然倫敦政經學院講是他的事但是\n185640\t214255\t我們要根據台灣氣候行動網絡的研究人家民間有做了一個研究他說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B啦一公噸一百塊啦然後大家都在講說高碳洩漏的風險企業還要享有排放量調整係數值的折扣所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業有可能他的費率會是繳多少錢一公噸\n215725\t230254\t所以剩下20元啦那我現在在跟你講我要的高碳洩漏這幾個字喔是以前的概念啦現在的概念一個台塑合淨廠拖幾年你跟我說從他們預計計劃興建到可以運作拖幾年高碳洩漏這假議題啦\n240492\t255203\t用高碳洩漏的概念然後來給企業打折 我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去 人家就要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠 台灣不好意思 要刷去外國去 簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊 不是十年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險 然後再給你打兩折\n267765\t270848\t所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的。那高碳洩漏,物量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業,只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少,都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊。\n289108\t305004\t那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元\n307952\t326316\t你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏在打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢\n337810\t340434\t民間也幫你賺了13.7億台積電繳多少?10億10.4億中油繳多少?不到1億中鋼繳多少?\n355700\t370265\t不到兩億啦!所以人家都幫你們算了!所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是\n378289\t386214\t欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才有說過啦,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,\n401687\t415419\t都已經要執行了 如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元 優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長 這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣 歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話 那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課\n426591\t438717\t再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦\n440956\t468028\t我先來說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年但各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價\n469349\t483185\t丹麥、加拿大、河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。\n489571\t513086\t那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去\n516059\t522344\t你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換修律系數對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度\n535656\t550804\t會達不到那個標準嗎?包委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證\n563070\t572573\t施工已經沒有留在台灣：所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平：現在企增價過低：未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力：這不是我們立委都這麼親切公共：大多數都不用叫啦\n581226\t604201\t但是事實上呢這個像油電價格補貼想有排一噸碳高達一千元以上的補貼在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生外部成本每噸是五千七百元結果他們光是一個碳費一噸二十元說得過去嗎\n605442\t627462\t所以碳費的課徵其實矯正這種不公平的第一步留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用當然部長這樣一般費率300元大多數事實上都課不到300元遠低於國際水準你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告\n629107\t649238\t報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久對阿還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度沒有很高阿因為你扣二十塊到十塊大多少\n650799\t656280\t而且不要忘了,你們盤點的繳費是一場一場,譬如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了,它是一個場一個場去計算的。喔,整個台塑?是嗎?你們兩萬五的Quota扣減額度,兩萬五一場一場,你搞不清楚,不是我搞不清楚,每一場都擁有兩萬五千公噸的免費額。\n674625\t676907\t所以整個台塑如果20個廠,大概20個廠減掉2萬5,跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5,變成25萬噸的減碳欸,那個免費額欸,所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了,並不是沒有,然後再高碳排再優惠,再打兩折,打一折打兩折,竟然沒有100元啦,\n702188\t730464\t所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢\n731567\t732615\t我們在這裡先講好喔\n734645\t740588\t所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為所未為討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦\n763061\t767644\t所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是二十個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不可以說三百塊啦一檔叫二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦\n793660\t794020\t法定人數不足\n","txt":"李委員好部長,我們現在供第6次的碳費費率審議會確定了碳費徵收的費率但是這個決議啊,距離有效推動減碳的目標相去甚遠今天質詢的委員都覺得說這樣企業怎麼活啊現在大家都沒競爭力啊但是我要持不同的意見就是說\n你這個推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠以外,它可能還使台灣在國際碳邊境,就是C-band之下,處於不利的位置,而且會拖累了我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍,我必須要再講說,以這個歐盟鋼鐵製品為例,台灣\n這3年平均的輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模?我記得數字大概5、6億左右什麼5、6億?台灣是39.72億美金美金我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面我們輸出到歐盟佔了幾個百分比?\n18.79將近兩成我們鋼鐵外銷的將近兩成都是賣給歐盟啊所以這個CBAN的這個機制對台灣影響很大那我今天講說我們碳費你現在公告的費率也遠低於國際標準所以我們今天很害怕就是說\n明年還沒有要起徵喔那在這種狀況裡面你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳那你們現在一般費率一公噸是300元優惠的方案B是一公噸100元優惠的方案A方案是一公噸50元那這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的\n那歐盟碳交易市場因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵以鋼鐵業為例就不要講電子產品以鋼鐵業為例歐盟的碳交易市場一公噸是多少錢70塊歐元左右70塊歐元台幣新台幣2500元以美國環保署去估算每噸的碳排放它的外部成本\n外部成本丟給社會去承擔的一公噸是190美元就相當於新台幣6100元才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度倫敦政經學院的研究團隊講說台灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3000元當然倫敦政經學院講是他的事但是\n我們要根據台灣氣候行動網絡的研究人家民間有做了一個研究他說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B啦一公噸一百塊啦然後大家都在講說高碳洩漏的風險企業還要享有排放量調整係數值的折扣所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業有可能他的費率會是繳多少錢一公噸\n所以剩下20元啦那我現在在跟你講我要的高碳洩漏這幾個字喔是以前的概念啦現在的概念一個台塑合淨廠拖幾年你跟我說從他們預計計劃興建到可以運作拖幾年高碳洩漏這假議題啦\n用高碳洩漏的概念然後來給企業打折 我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去 人家就要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠 台灣不好意思 要刷去外國去 簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊 不是十年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險 然後再給你打兩折\n所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的。那高碳洩漏,物量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業,只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少,都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊。\n那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元\n你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏在打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢\n民間也幫你賺了13.7億台積電繳多少?10億10.4億中油繳多少?不到1億中鋼繳多少?\n不到兩億啦!所以人家都幫你們算了!所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是\n欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才有說過啦,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,\n都已經要執行了 如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元 優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長 這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣 歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話 那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課\n再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦\n我先來說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年但各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價\n丹麥、加拿大、河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。\n那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去\n你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換修律系數對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度\n會達不到那個標準嗎?包委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證\n施工已經沒有留在台灣：所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平：現在企增價過低：未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力：這不是我們立委都這麼親切公共：大多數都不用叫啦\n但是事實上呢這個像油電價格補貼想有排一噸碳高達一千元以上的補貼在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生外部成本每噸是五千七百元結果他們光是一個碳費一噸二十元說得過去嗎\n所以碳費的課徵其實矯正這種不公平的第一步留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用當然部長這樣一般費率300元大多數事實上都課不到300元遠低於國際水準你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告\n報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久對阿還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度沒有很高阿因為你扣二十塊到十塊大多少\n而且不要忘了,你們盤點的繳費是一場一場,譬如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了,它是一個場一個場去計算的。喔,整個台塑?是嗎?你們兩萬五的Quota扣減額度,兩萬五一場一場,你搞不清楚,不是我搞不清楚,每一場都擁有兩萬五千公噸的免費額。\n所以整個台塑如果20個廠,大概20個廠減掉2萬5,跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5,變成25萬噸的減碳欸,那個免費額欸,所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了,並不是沒有,然後再高碳排再優惠,再打兩折,打一折打兩折,竟然沒有100元啦,\n所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢\n我們在這裡先講好喔\n所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為所未為討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦\n所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是二十個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不可以說三百塊啦一檔叫二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦\n法定人數不足\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.281 --> 00:10.962\n李委員好部長,我們現在供第6次的碳費費率審議會確定了碳費徵收的費率但是這個決議啊,距離有效推動減碳的目標相去甚遠今天質詢的委員都覺得說這樣企業怎麼活啊現在大家都沒競爭力啊但是我要持不同的意見就是說\n\n00:36.972 --> 00:54.036\n你這個推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠以外,它可能還使台灣在國際碳邊境,就是C-band之下,處於不利的位置,而且會拖累了我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍,我必須要再講說,以這個歐盟鋼鐵製品為例,台灣\n\n01:02.078 --> 01:15.689\n這3年平均的輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模?我記得數字大概5、6億左右什麼5、6億?台灣是39.72億美金美金我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面我們輸出到歐盟佔了幾個百分比?\n\n01:31.616 --> 01:48.494\n18.79將近兩成我們鋼鐵外銷的將近兩成都是賣給歐盟啊所以這個CBAN的這個機制對台灣影響很大那我今天講說我們碳費你現在公告的費率也遠低於國際標準所以我們今天很害怕就是說\n\n01:50.316 --> 02:04.707\n明年還沒有要起徵喔那在這種狀況裡面你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳那你們現在一般費率一公噸是300元優惠的方案B是一公噸100元優惠的方案A方案是一公噸50元那這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的\n\n02:16.897 --> 02:38.426\n那歐盟碳交易市場因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵以鋼鐵業為例就不要講電子產品以鋼鐵業為例歐盟的碳交易市場一公噸是多少錢70塊歐元左右70塊歐元台幣新台幣2500元以美國環保署去估算每噸的碳排放它的外部成本\n\n02:39.486 --> 02:43.288\n外部成本丟給社會去承擔的一公噸是190美元就相當於新台幣6100元才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度倫敦政經學院的研究團隊講說台灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3000元當然倫敦政經學院講是他的事但是\n\n03:05.640 --> 03:34.255\n我們要根據台灣氣候行動網絡的研究人家民間有做了一個研究他說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B啦一公噸一百塊啦然後大家都在講說高碳洩漏的風險企業還要享有排放量調整係數值的折扣所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業有可能他的費率會是繳多少錢一公噸\n\n03:35.725 --> 03:50.254\n所以剩下20元啦那我現在在跟你講我要的高碳洩漏這幾個字喔是以前的概念啦現在的概念一個台塑合淨廠拖幾年你跟我說從他們預計計劃興建到可以運作拖幾年高碳洩漏這假議題啦\n\n04:00.492 --> 04:15.203\n用高碳洩漏的概念然後來給企業打折我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去人家就要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠台灣不好意思要刷去外國去簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊不是十年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險然後再給你打兩折\n\n04:27.765 --> 04:30.848\n所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的。那高碳洩漏,物量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業,只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少,都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊。\n\n04:49.108 --> 05:05.004\n那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元\n\n05:07.952 --> 05:26.316\n你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏在打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢\n\n05:37.810 --> 05:40.434\n民間也幫你賺了13.7億台積電繳多少?10億10.4億中油繳多少?不到1億中鋼繳多少?\n\n05:55.700 --> 06:10.265\n不到兩億啦!所以人家都幫你們算了!所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是\n\n06:18.289 --> 06:26.214\n欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才有說過啦,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,\n\n06:41.687 --> 06:55.419\n都已經要執行了如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課\n\n07:06.591 --> 07:18.717\n再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦\n\n07:20.956 --> 07:48.028\n我先來說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年但各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價\n\n07:49.349 --> 08:03.185\n丹麥、加拿大、河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。\n\n08:09.571 --> 08:33.086\n那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去\n\n08:36.059 --> 08:42.344\n你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換修律系數對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度\n\n08:55.656 --> 09:10.804\n會達不到那個標準嗎?包委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證\n\n09:23.070 --> 09:32.573\n施工已經沒有留在台灣：所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平：現在企增價過低：未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力：這不是我們立委都這麼親切公共：大多數都不用叫啦\n\n09:41.226 --> 10:04.201\n但是事實上呢這個像油電價格補貼想有排一噸碳高達一千元以上的補貼在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生外部成本每噸是五千七百元結果他們光是一個碳費一噸二十元說得過去嗎\n\n10:05.442 --> 10:27.462\n所以碳費的課徵其實矯正這種不公平的第一步留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用當然部長這樣一般費率300元大多數事實上都課不到300元遠低於國際水準你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告\n\n10:29.107 --> 10:49.238\n報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久對阿還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度沒有很高阿因為你扣二十塊到十塊大多少\n\n10:50.799 --> 10:56.280\n而且不要忘了,你們盤點的繳費是一場一場,譬如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了,它是一個場一個場去計算的。喔,整個台塑?是嗎?你們兩萬五的Quota扣減額度,兩萬五一場一場,你搞不清楚,不是我搞不清楚,每一場都擁有兩萬五千公噸的免費額。\n\n11:14.625 --> 11:16.907\n所以整個台塑如果20個廠,大概20個廠減掉2萬5,跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5,變成25萬噸的減碳欸,那個免費額欸,所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了,並不是沒有,然後再高碳排再優惠,再打兩折,打一折打兩折,竟然沒有100元啦,\n\n11:42.188 --> 12:10.464\n所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢\n\n12:11.567 --> 12:12.615\n我們在這裡先講好喔\n\n12:14.645 --> 12:20.588\n所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為所未為討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦\n\n12:43.061 --> 12:47.644\n所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是二十個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不可以說三百塊啦一檔叫二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦\n\n13:13.660 --> 13:14.020\n法定人數不足\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.281,"end":10.962,"text":"李委員好部長,我們現在供第6次的碳費費率審議會確定了碳費徵收的費率但是這個決議啊,距離有效推動減碳的目標相去甚遠今天質詢的委員都覺得說這樣企業怎麼活啊現在大家都沒競爭力啊但是我要持不同的意見就是說"},{"start":36.972,"end":54.036,"text":"你這個推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠以外,它可能還使台灣在國際碳邊境,就是C-band之下,處於不利的位置,而且會拖累了我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍,我必須要再講說,以這個歐盟鋼鐵製品為例,台灣"},{"start":62.078,"end":75.689,"text":"這3年平均的輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模?我記得數字大概5、6億左右什麼5、6億?台灣是39.72億美金美金我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面我們輸出到歐盟佔了幾個百分比?"},{"start":91.616,"end":108.494,"text":"18.79將近兩成我們鋼鐵外銷的將近兩成都是賣給歐盟啊所以這個CBAN的這個機制對台灣影響很大那我今天講說我們碳費你現在公告的費率也遠低於國際標準所以我們今天很害怕就是說"},{"start":110.316,"end":124.707,"text":"明年還沒有要起徵喔那在這種狀況裡面你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳那你們現在一般費率一公噸是300元優惠的方案B是一公噸100元優惠的方案A方案是一公噸50元那這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的"},{"start":136.897,"end":158.426,"text":"那歐盟碳交易市場因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵以鋼鐵業為例就不要講電子產品以鋼鐵業為例歐盟的碳交易市場一公噸是多少錢70塊歐元左右70塊歐元台幣新台幣2500元以美國環保署去估算每噸的碳排放它的外部成本"},{"start":159.486,"end":163.288,"text":"外部成本丟給社會去承擔的一公噸是190美元就相當於新台幣6100元才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度倫敦政經學院的研究團隊講說台灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3000元當然倫敦政經學院講是他的事但是"},{"start":185.64,"end":214.255,"text":"我們要根據台灣氣候行動網絡的研究人家民間有做了一個研究他說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B啦一公噸一百塊啦然後大家都在講說高碳洩漏的風險企業還要享有排放量調整係數值的折扣所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業有可能他的費率會是繳多少錢一公噸"},{"start":215.725,"end":230.254,"text":"所以剩下20元啦那我現在在跟你講我要的高碳洩漏這幾個字喔是以前的概念啦現在的概念一個台塑合淨廠拖幾年你跟我說從他們預計計劃興建到可以運作拖幾年高碳洩漏這假議題啦"},{"start":240.492,"end":255.203,"text":"用高碳洩漏的概念然後來給企業打折 我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去 人家就要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠 台灣不好意思 要刷去外國去 簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊 不是十年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險 然後再給你打兩折"},{"start":267.765,"end":270.848,"text":"所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的。那高碳洩漏,物量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業,只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少,都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊。"},{"start":289.108,"end":305.004,"text":"那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元"},{"start":307.952,"end":326.316,"text":"你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏在打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢"},{"start":337.81,"end":340.434,"text":"民間也幫你賺了13.7億台積電繳多少?10億10.4億中油繳多少?不到1億中鋼繳多少?"},{"start":355.7,"end":370.265,"text":"不到兩億啦!所以人家都幫你們算了!所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是"},{"start":378.289,"end":386.214,"text":"欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才有說過啦,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,"},{"start":401.687,"end":415.419,"text":"都已經要執行了 如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元 優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長 這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣 歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話 那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課"},{"start":426.591,"end":438.717,"text":"再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦"},{"start":440.956,"end":468.028,"text":"我先來說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年但各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價"},{"start":469.349,"end":483.185,"text":"丹麥、加拿大、河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。"},{"start":489.571,"end":513.086,"text":"那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去"},{"start":516.059,"end":522.344,"text":"你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換修律系數對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度"},{"start":535.656,"end":550.804,"text":"會達不到那個標準嗎?包委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證"},{"start":563.07,"end":572.573,"text":"施工已經沒有留在台灣：所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平：現在企增價過低：未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力：這不是我們立委都這麼親切公共：大多數都不用叫啦"},{"start":581.226,"end":604.201,"text":"但是事實上呢這個像油電價格補貼想有排一噸碳高達一千元以上的補貼在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生外部成本每噸是五千七百元結果他們光是一個碳費一噸二十元說得過去嗎"},{"start":605.442,"end":627.462,"text":"所以碳費的課徵其實矯正這種不公平的第一步留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用當然部長這樣一般費率300元大多數事實上都課不到300元遠低於國際水準你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告"},{"start":629.107,"end":649.238,"text":"報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久對阿還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度沒有很高阿因為你扣二十塊到十塊大多少"},{"start":650.799,"end":656.28,"text":"而且不要忘了,你們盤點的繳費是一場一場,譬如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了,它是一個場一個場去計算的。喔,整個台塑?是嗎?你們兩萬五的Quota扣減額度,兩萬五一場一場,你搞不清楚,不是我搞不清楚,每一場都擁有兩萬五千公噸的免費額。"},{"start":674.625,"end":676.907,"text":"所以整個台塑如果20個廠,大概20個廠減掉2萬5,跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5,變成25萬噸的減碳欸,那個免費額欸,所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了,並不是沒有,然後再高碳排再優惠,再打兩折,打一折打兩折,竟然沒有100元啦,"},{"start":702.188,"end":730.464,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢"},{"start":731.567,"end":732.615,"text":"我們在這裡先講好喔"},{"start":734.645,"end":740.588,"text":"所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為所未為討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦"},{"start":763.061,"end":767.644,"text":"所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是二十個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不可以說三百塊啦一檔叫二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦"},{"start":793.66,"end":794.02,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:52:58 - 13:06:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155457,"gazette":{"lineno":1281,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時53分）謝謝主席，是不是還是請彭部長？"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，第六次的碳費費率審議會確定了碳費徵收的費率，但是這個決議距離有效推動減碳的目標相去甚遠，今天質詢的委員都覺得這樣企業怎麼活，這樣大家都沒有競爭力；但是我要持不同的意見，就是除了跟推動減碳的目標相去甚遠以外，可能還使臺灣在國際碳邊境也就是CBAM之下處於不利的位置，而且會拖累我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍，我必須要再講，以歐盟鋼鐵製品為例，臺灣這三年平均輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模？"],["彭部長啓明：我記得數字大概是五、六億左右。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼五、六億？臺灣是39.72億美金！美金！"],["彭部長啓明：美金，對。"],["林委員淑芬：我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面輸出到歐盟占了百分之幾？18.79%、將近兩成，我們鋼鐵外銷將近兩成都是賣給歐盟，所以CBAM的機制對臺灣影響很大。我今天要講你們現在公告的碳費費率也遠低於國際標準，所以我們今天很害怕的就是，明年還沒有要起徵，在這種狀況之下，你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳？你們現在一般費率1公噸是300元，優惠的方案B是1公噸100元，優惠的方案A是1公噸50元，這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的。歐盟碳交易市場，因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵輸出到歐盟，以鋼鐵業為例，就不要講電子產品，以鋼鐵業為例，歐盟的碳交易市場1公噸是多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：70塊歐元左右。"],["林委員淑芬：70塊歐元，新臺幣2,500元。以美國環保署去估算，每噸碳排放的外部成本，也就是丟給社會去承擔的，1公噸是190美元，就相當於新臺幣6,100元，才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度。倫敦政經學院的研究團隊說臺灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3,000元，當然倫敦政經學院講是它的事啦；但是我們要根據台灣氣候行動網絡的研究，人家民間有做了一個研究，它說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B，也就是1公噸100元，然後大家都在講高碳洩漏的風險企業還享有排放量調整係數值的折扣，所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業，有可能它的費率1公噸是繳多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：乘以0.2。"],["林委員淑芬：所以剩下20元。我現在再跟你講，我認為高碳洩漏這幾個字是古早的概念，現在的概念……一個台塑河靜廠拖幾年？你跟我說。"],["彭部長啓明：你說那個……"],["林委員淑芬：從他們預計計畫興建到可以運作，拖幾年？高碳洩漏，這是假議題啦！用高碳洩漏的概念，然後來給企業打折，我也可以這樣子講啊！你說一個石化業要遷出去，人家就讓你遷出去？一個鋼鐵廠，臺灣不做了，要移到外國那麼簡單喔？台塑河靜廠搞幾年啦，不是十年而已。所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險，然後說再給它打兩折，所以我說今天1公噸30元也是假議題、也是假的。高碳洩漏，污染及用電最高的石化鋼鐵業只需要繳……實際的碳費可能繳不了多少，都遠低於日本的碳價水準，更不要講其他國際標準。我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制，淪為產業逃避減碳的藉口。你們的費率A方案低到1公噸50元，相當於1公斤的排碳量只需要繳0.05元？你們的優惠費率A、B方案1公噸100元、1公噸50元，高碳洩漏再打折，打兩折就是20元跟10元，比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊！這樣的費率，大家在你們開會的時候就說對於推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的，你們預計一年收60億，你來告訴我，如果照這樣施行，台塑一年要繳交多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：這要看它提出的自主減量計畫。"],["林委員淑芬：人家民間也幫你算了，13.7億；台積電繳多少？10.4億；中油繳多少？不到1億；中鋼繳多少？"],["彭部長啓明：大概4億……"],["林委員淑芬：不到2億啦！人家都幫你們算了。所以在這種狀況之下，這些費率、優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款，缺乏退場機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口。但不只是這麼簡單，如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節，影響產業的國際競爭力，不是說臺灣繳少一點就好了，我們才有競爭力，不是！我剛才有說過，鋼鐵業有將近19%、將近兩成是輸出到歐盟，人家2026年開始的CBAM都已經要執行了，如果臺灣1公噸繳20元，優惠費率打兩折繳20元，請問部長，這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣？歐盟是一公噸2,500，我們在臺灣只繳20元的話，那到CBAM的機制、到歐盟是不是會再補課？還要再去買憑證，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個不一樣，歐盟有一個是總量管制的排放交易，但在那個以下，他其實也有這種高碳洩漏、也有一些免費額度，超過它才要這樣的費用。"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，我就問你啦，臺灣的碳費相較於中、日、韓，我們起步已經很晚了，而我們還要再延緩一年，但各國都在制定更嚴格的碳定價，連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電解鋁……綜合價格收盤價在今年都要突破100元人民幣；韓國在今年制定第四階段，要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系，而且還要提升碳價；丹麥、加拿大、荷蘭就不要講了；連新加坡都規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元。如果臺灣的碳費費率偏低，沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳，它可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機，現在這種20元、10元的碳費費率設計難以推動產業轉型、阻礙綠色經濟發展！","所以在2026年CBAM正式實施以後，到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅？如果我們的費率太低，不管用什麼技術去換算，差額是不是要繳到歐盟去？你繳給歐盟跟繳給臺灣，臺灣至少還可以把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實歐盟也有一個免費額度，他也有這種……"],["林委員淑芬：對，但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個免費的額度，會達不到那個標準嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個不要政府做，出口的企業自己都有這個意識，那也必須說……"],["林委員淑芬：那要看什麼樣的企業，現在的意思是說，你在臺灣、錢要留在臺灣、在臺灣徵收，臺灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策，有錢可以用，到時候企業再去那邊跟外國買，或是繳錢給歐盟買那個憑證，到時候錢就不留在臺灣了！","所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃，忽視了歷史性的不公平，現在起徵價過低，未來企業面臨更急遽的碳價上漲壓力。這不是我們立委在這裡隨便說說，大多數都不用繳啦！事實上，像油電價格補貼，享有排一噸碳高達1,000元以上的補貼，在企業界都是這樣子呀！所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候的發生，外部成本是5,700元/噸，結果他們的碳費是20元/噸，說得過去嗎？所以碳費徵收其實是矯正這種不公平的第一步，留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用。","部長，一般費率300元，事實上大多數都課不到300元，遠低於國際水準，針對我們這樣子的競爭劣勢有沒有做過評估報告？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為歐盟是2026年才開始，我們還有一點時間……"],["林委員淑芬：2026不會很久。"],["彭部長啓明：對，還有兩年的時間，所以我們先上路啦，不然的話，如果照委員那個比較高的數字，當然我也期待比較高，但如果這個高的話，其實整個要推動起來的確有一定的難度。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有很高，因為大多數你們徵收20元到10元，而且不要忘了，你們盤點的繳費是一廠、一廠，比如說台塑就不是整個台塑，它是一個廠、一個廠去計算的。"],["彭部長啓明：整個台塑……"],["林委員淑芬：是嗎？你們兩萬五的quota、扣減額度兩萬五……"],["彭部長啓明：一廠、一廠啦……"],["林委員淑芬：一廠、一廠，你搞不清楚、不是我搞不清楚！每一廠都擁有2萬5,000公噸的免費額，所以整個台塑如果有20個廠，20個廠減掉兩萬五，跟20個廠每一廠場減掉兩萬五變成25萬噸的免費額，所以你們已經大大地在照顧這些業者了，並不是沒有！然後高碳排再優惠、再打兩折，徵收不到100元啦！所以在這種狀況裡面，優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制，你可不可以告訴我們？"],["彭部長啓明：我們未來會逐步隨著時間進行，每兩年會調整一次，所以這個一定會有退場的機制。"],["林委員淑芬：這個會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任，而這個優惠費率你說兩年檢討一次，但是會不會像國土計畫法、會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一延再延，你覺得呢？我們在這裡先講好，300元是假的，100元才是真的，但是100元還可以打兩折！","事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價，中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了，在這種狀況下，你的優惠不落日、難以落日，到時候不要說對臺灣不利，對這些企業本身就不利了！所以我們需要的是魄力十足的政策，而不是這樣畏首畏尾、討好財團。現在這些要徵收的都是財團，一般中小企業很少，所以我們希望看到更加完善、更具前瞻性的碳費政策規劃。2萬5,000公噸的免費額還是一廠、一廠的，如果有20個廠就是50萬噸的免費額了！所以這對大財團、大企業都非常有利，不要說300元，大多數一噸徵收20塊到10塊而已。部長，這樣聽得懂嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：聽得懂、聽得懂。"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛，現在我問你，未來會不會像國土計畫法、工廠輔導法一樣永無落日的一天？"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦、不會啦，委員放心！"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，希望看到你們做的時候不會這樣。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}