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\"text\": \"謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 338.881, \"end\": 339.101, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 339.101, \"end\": 339.341, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 339.341, \"end\": 339.601, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 339.601, \"end\": 340.102, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 340.102, \"end\": 340.242, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 340.242, \"end\": 340.342, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 340.342, \"end\": 340.823, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"隱\"}, {\"word\": \"形\", \"start\": 340.823, \"end\": 341.103, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"冠\", \"start\": 341.103, \"end\": 341.964, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 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430.597, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 430.597, \"end\": 430.618, \"score\": 0.035}]}, {\"start\": 431.398, \"end\": 448.619, \"text\": \"我會再盡量再想辦法所以剛剛部長那個有前面有委員講說你們身為這個環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 431.398, \"end\": 431.979, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 431.979, \"end\": 432.3, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 432.3, \"end\": 432.46, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 432.46, \"end\": 432.6, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 432.6, \"end\": 432.76, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 432.76, \"end\": 432.98, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 432.98, \"end\": 433.141, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 433.141, \"end\": 433.761, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 433.761, \"end\": 434.242, \"score\": 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00:00:05,197\n謝謝主席,我們請彭部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,004 --> 00:00:35,800\n黃委員好部長好部長我從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都非常的關心這個可能有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員幾乎到目前為止都沒有人跳過就是直接有登記一定來質詢那就表示說這個議題是大家非常關心的那我在基層其實我也聽到很多就是說一般你現在是針對500就是500個廠\n\n3\n00:00:38,482 --> 00:00:39,823\n明年1月1日開始開針,然後後年才要繳錢。\n\n4\n00:00:59,133 --> 00:01:27,508\n那其實在地方有一些我講的是這個中小企業那他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去那其實他們對這個政府要徵收碳費其實他們也有很多意見那剛剛我有看到就是說環境部也有針對這個有到地方去開說明會那劉建國委員有特別提到就是說地方政府你們開說明會的時候或者是跟溝通\n\n5\n00:01:28,328 --> 00:01:56,124\n跟地方政府好像這個是缺法的所以我也希望就是說希望這個環境部能夠針對地方政府的這個部分應該要再去做一個加強可能就是去做跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通因為有時候民眾的疑問他第一時間他應該是打到地方政府去詢問所以如果說地方政府你們應該也要讓他有這樣的一個觀念跟概念\n\n6\n00:01:59,006 --> 00:02:05,451\n中小企業解決一些問題當然環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣環境部當然希望整個排碳的部分能夠減少經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收的\n\n7\n00:02:23,025 --> 00:02:48,876\n這個價格可能會覺得說不太合理或者覺得太高那當然這個兩個立場不一樣我們可以理解那我想請教就是說未來就是說我們現在都已經定下來了那環境部跟經濟部如果說你們的立場不一樣的話那你們怎麼去溝通說服對方那讓經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商你就是要誠實誠實來\n\n8\n00:02:52,700 --> 00:03:00,957\n來報這個這個碳費或誠實來申報應該是你們環境部跟經濟部應該要如果說整個立場是不一樣的話那你們怎麼溝通\n\n9\n00:03:02,270 --> 00:03:22,871\n報告委員其實如果說不一樣的話其實這個是我們彼此要互相的溝通妥協那我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持不然的話其實這個制度是真的走不下去的所以這段過程我也真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多所以其實我是覺得這個部分委員你點到一個重點\n\n10\n00:03:23,291 --> 00:03:48,573\n那未來呢我也會跟這真的因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是連協同作戰的所以這個部分我們會強化這個溝通那當然啦這個我也很尊重這個經濟部的意見因為他們有產業的壓力那我們也有環團的壓力那我們是政府是一體的所以其實我們未來會密切的再溝通這個因為楊署長其實我們也是長久的夥伴在各種方面我們會以後會多加溝通\n\n11\n00:03:49,454 --> 00:04:04,513\n對,就是說我們看到這個碳費拍板之後那經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣而且是媒體,媒體直接寫出來那這個完全不一樣的情況之下那你們未來要推動就是應該\n\n12\n00:04:05,754 --> 00:04:22,847\n就是經濟部你要去面對的是所有的廠家那環境部你面對的是所有的這個也許是環團那大家關心這個環境的這些這些人士那你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點那另外就是說明年開始申報那2026年開始開徵這個碳費\n\n13\n00:04:26,569 --> 00:04:51,934\n所以如果能夠順利的話如果能夠順利就照這個部長講的可能就是一年可以有這個60億的這個碳費那當然如果說這個廠商他是要銷到他的產品是要銷到這個歐盟的話其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府的這樣的一個政策那如果說不是的話也許會有推動也許會有一些困難\n\n14\n00:04:52,934 --> 00:04:53,254\n黃秀芳議員\n\n15\n00:05:23,134 --> 00:05:37,900\n地方政府應該你們也要讓他知道這個整個狀況因為民眾很多他是直接打到地方政府去詢問是不是可以請部長在短期之內趕快進速跟地方政府可能有一些座談會或一些說明\n\n16\n00:05:38,881 --> 00:05:58,019\n謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有\n\n17\n00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:15,553\n所以我們把那個找出來我們有一個很好的座談那因為歐盟的問題齁出口是很重要的例如說螺絲螺帽業、扣件業還甚至很多特別的業其實他們的輔導幫忙的忙所以我未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去有一組人來去做協調\n\n18\n00:06:16,654 --> 00:06:32,650\n我這個協調不是為了說碳費多少而已而是說這個未來的螺絲螺貓因為它在進出口的時候這個都需要一些氣候上的探權的談判這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙所以我們環境部會積極的做那這個未來也會跟這個經濟部一起協同作戰\n\n19\n00:06:33,291 --> 00:06:47,408\n好那剛剛也有特別提到就是說你們針對這個收碳費或者是碳盤查可能你們環境部這邊人員這樣總共是多少人?現在90個人左右90個人嗎?那90個人目前來講這樣是夠嗎?不夠那不夠你們未來要怎麼辦?\n\n20\n00:06:53,075 --> 00:07:10,618\n第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力然後有些需要一些委外的人力來去做辦理那當然啦其實現在的人才工部門的預算人才這個薪水是很困難的所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法因為現在的同仁都很辛苦都是靠著使命來做啦\n\n21\n00:07:11,398 --> 00:07:28,619\n我會再盡量再想辦法所以剛剛部長那個有前面有委員講說你們身為這個環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣\n\n22\n00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:35,084\n委員會主動在希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教\n\n23\n00:07:54,296 --> 00:08:20,965\n所以我是覺得說部長你應該要去爭取就是說我們明年開始這個碳費開始申報那2026年要徵收那我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個跟行政院這邊應該去爭取爭取經費下來那你要有足夠的人力啊要不然你有這麼多事情要做那你人力不足的話其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難對\n\n24\n00:08:22,866 --> 00:08:42,449\n那像這個的話地方政府需要配合什麼嗎?他需要配合第一個是未來這些知識地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與這個討論或是參與這個調查這個都是要中央跟地方特別是環保局的單位所以我們像這個是第一步我們也昨天第一個發布的是給各縣市環保局局長\n\n25\n00:08:42,990 --> 00:08:43,110\n部長,你在\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4250\t5197\t謝謝主席,我們請彭部長\n10004\t35800\t黃委員好部長好部長我從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都非常的關心這個可能有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員幾乎到目前為止都沒有人跳過就是直接有登記一定來質詢那就表示說這個議題是大家非常關心的那我在基層其實我也聽到很多就是說一般你現在是針對500就是500個廠\n38482\t39823\t明年1月1日開始開針,然後後年才要繳錢。\n59133\t87508\t那其實在地方有一些我講的是這個中小企業那他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去那其實他們對這個政府要徵收碳費其實他們也有很多意見那剛剛我有看到就是說環境部也有針對這個有到地方去開說明會那劉建國委員有特別提到就是說地方政府你們開說明會的時候或者是跟溝通\n88328\t116124\t跟地方政府好像這個是缺法的所以我也希望就是說希望這個環境部能夠針對地方政府的這個部分應該要再去做一個加強可能就是去做跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通因為有時候民眾的疑問他第一時間他應該是打到地方政府去詢問所以如果說地方政府你們應該也要讓他有這樣的一個觀念跟概念\n119006\t125451\t中小企業解決一些問題當然環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣環境部當然希望整個排碳的部分能夠減少經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收的\n143025\t168876\t這個價格可能會覺得說不太合理或者覺得太高那當然這個兩個立場不一樣我們可以理解那我想請教就是說未來就是說我們現在都已經定下來了那環境部跟經濟部如果說你們的立場不一樣的話那你們怎麼去溝通說服對方那讓經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商你就是要誠實誠實來\n172700\t180957\t來報這個這個碳費或誠實來申報應該是你們環境部跟經濟部應該要如果說整個立場是不一樣的話那你們怎麼溝通\n182270\t202871\t報告委員其實如果說不一樣的話其實這個是我們彼此要互相的溝通妥協那我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持不然的話其實這個制度是真的走不下去的所以這段過程我也真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多所以其實我是覺得這個部分委員你點到一個重點\n203291\t228573\t那未來呢我也會跟這真的因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是連協同作戰的所以這個部分我們會強化這個溝通那當然啦這個我也很尊重這個經濟部的意見因為他們有產業的壓力那我們也有環團的壓力那我們是政府是一體的所以其實我們未來會密切的再溝通這個因為楊署長其實我們也是長久的夥伴在各種方面我們會以後會多加溝通\n229454\t244513\t對,就是說我們看到這個碳費拍板之後那經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣而且是媒體,媒體直接寫出來那這個完全不一樣的情況之下那你們未來要推動就是應該\n245754\t262847\t就是經濟部你要去面對的是所有的廠家那環境部你面對的是所有的這個也許是環團那大家關心這個環境的這些這些人士那你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點那另外就是說明年開始申報那2026年開始開徵這個碳費\n266569\t291934\t所以如果能夠順利的話如果能夠順利就照這個部長講的可能就是一年可以有這個60億的這個碳費那當然如果說這個廠商他是要銷到他的產品是要銷到這個歐盟的話其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府的這樣的一個政策那如果說不是的話也許會有推動也許會有一些困難\n292934\t293254\t黃秀芳議員\n323134\t337900\t地方政府應該你們也要讓他知道這個整個狀況因為民眾很多他是直接打到地方政府去詢問是不是可以請部長在短期之內趕快進速跟地方政府可能有一些座談會或一些說明\n338881\t358019\t謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有\n359560\t375553\t所以我們把那個找出來我們有一個很好的座談那因為歐盟的問題齁出口是很重要的例如說螺絲螺帽業、扣件業還甚至很多特別的業其實他們的輔導幫忙的忙所以我未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去有一組人來去做協調\n376654\t392650\t我這個協調不是為了說碳費多少而已而是說這個未來的螺絲螺貓因為它在進出口的時候這個都需要一些氣候上的探權的談判這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙所以我們環境部會積極的做那這個未來也會跟這個經濟部一起協同作戰\n393291\t407408\t好那剛剛也有特別提到就是說你們針對這個收碳費或者是碳盤查可能你們環境部這邊人員這樣總共是多少人?現在90個人左右90個人嗎?那90個人目前來講這樣是夠嗎?不夠那不夠你們未來要怎麼辦?\n413075\t430618\t第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力然後有些需要一些委外的人力來去做辦理那當然啦其實現在的人才工部門的預算人才這個薪水是很困難的所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法因為現在的同仁都很辛苦都是靠著使命來做啦\n431398\t448619\t我會再盡量再想辦法所以剛剛部長那個有前面有委員講說你們身為這個環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣\n449560\t455084\t委員會主動在希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教\n474296\t500965\t所以我是覺得說部長你應該要去爭取就是說我們明年開始這個碳費開始申報那2026年要徵收那我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個跟行政院這邊應該去爭取爭取經費下來那你要有足夠的人力啊要不然你有這麼多事情要做那你人力不足的話其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難對\n502866\t522449\t那像這個的話地方政府需要配合什麼嗎?他需要配合第一個是未來這些知識地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與這個討論或是參與這個調查這個都是要中央跟地方特別是環保局的單位所以我們像這個是第一步我們也昨天第一個發布的是給各縣市環保局局長\n522990\t523110\t部長,你在\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們請彭部長\n黃委員好部長好部長我從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都非常的關心這個可能有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員幾乎到目前為止都沒有人跳過就是直接有登記一定來質詢那就表示說這個議題是大家非常關心的那我在基層其實我也聽到很多就是說一般你現在是針對500就是500個廠\n明年1月1日開始開針,然後後年才要繳錢。\n那其實在地方有一些我講的是這個中小企業那他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去那其實他們對這個政府要徵收碳費其實他們也有很多意見那剛剛我有看到就是說環境部也有針對這個有到地方去開說明會那劉建國委員有特別提到就是說地方政府你們開說明會的時候或者是跟溝通\n跟地方政府好像這個是缺法的所以我也希望就是說希望這個環境部能夠針對地方政府的這個部分應該要再去做一個加強可能就是去做跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通因為有時候民眾的疑問他第一時間他應該是打到地方政府去詢問所以如果說地方政府你們應該也要讓他有這樣的一個觀念跟概念\n中小企業解決一些問題當然環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣環境部當然希望整個排碳的部分能夠減少經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收的\n這個價格可能會覺得說不太合理或者覺得太高那當然這個兩個立場不一樣我們可以理解那我想請教就是說未來就是說我們現在都已經定下來了那環境部跟經濟部如果說你們的立場不一樣的話那你們怎麼去溝通說服對方那讓經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商你就是要誠實誠實來\n來報這個這個碳費或誠實來申報應該是你們環境部跟經濟部應該要如果說整個立場是不一樣的話那你們怎麼溝通\n報告委員其實如果說不一樣的話其實這個是我們彼此要互相的溝通妥協那我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持不然的話其實這個制度是真的走不下去的所以這段過程我也真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多所以其實我是覺得這個部分委員你點到一個重點\n那未來呢我也會跟這真的因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是連協同作戰的所以這個部分我們會強化這個溝通那當然啦這個我也很尊重這個經濟部的意見因為他們有產業的壓力那我們也有環團的壓力那我們是政府是一體的所以其實我們未來會密切的再溝通這個因為楊署長其實我們也是長久的夥伴在各種方面我們會以後會多加溝通\n對,就是說我們看到這個碳費拍板之後那經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣而且是媒體,媒體直接寫出來那這個完全不一樣的情況之下那你們未來要推動就是應該\n就是經濟部你要去面對的是所有的廠家那環境部你面對的是所有的這個也許是環團那大家關心這個環境的這些這些人士那你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點那另外就是說明年開始申報那2026年開始開徵這個碳費\n所以如果能夠順利的話如果能夠順利就照這個部長講的可能就是一年可以有這個60億的這個碳費那當然如果說這個廠商他是要銷到他的產品是要銷到這個歐盟的話其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府的這樣的一個政策那如果說不是的話也許會有推動也許會有一些困難\n黃秀芳議員\n地方政府應該你們也要讓他知道這個整個狀況因為民眾很多他是直接打到地方政府去詢問是不是可以請部長在短期之內趕快進速跟地方政府可能有一些座談會或一些說明\n謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有\n所以我們把那個找出來我們有一個很好的座談那因為歐盟的問題齁出口是很重要的例如說螺絲螺帽業、扣件業還甚至很多特別的業其實他們的輔導幫忙的忙所以我未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去有一組人來去做協調\n我這個協調不是為了說碳費多少而已而是說這個未來的螺絲螺貓因為它在進出口的時候這個都需要一些氣候上的探權的談判這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙所以我們環境部會積極的做那這個未來也會跟這個經濟部一起協同作戰\n好那剛剛也有特別提到就是說你們針對這個收碳費或者是碳盤查可能你們環境部這邊人員這樣總共是多少人?現在90個人左右90個人嗎?那90個人目前來講這樣是夠嗎?不夠那不夠你們未來要怎麼辦?\n第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力然後有些需要一些委外的人力來去做辦理那當然啦其實現在的人才工部門的預算人才這個薪水是很困難的所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法因為現在的同仁都很辛苦都是靠著使命來做啦\n我會再盡量再想辦法所以剛剛部長那個有前面有委員講說你們身為這個環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣\n委員會主動在希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教\n所以我是覺得說部長你應該要去爭取就是說我們明年開始這個碳費開始申報那2026年要徵收那我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個跟行政院這邊應該去爭取爭取經費下來那你要有足夠的人力啊要不然你有這麼多事情要做那你人力不足的話其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難對\n那像這個的話地方政府需要配合什麼嗎?他需要配合第一個是未來這些知識地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與這個討論或是參與這個調查這個都是要中央跟地方特別是環保局的單位所以我們像這個是第一步我們也昨天第一個發布的是給各縣市環保局局長\n部長,你在\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.250 --> 00:05.197\n謝謝主席,我們請彭部長\n\n00:10.004 --> 00:35.800\n黃委員好部長好部長我從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都非常的關心這個可能有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員幾乎到目前為止都沒有人跳過就是直接有登記一定來質詢那就表示說這個議題是大家非常關心的那我在基層其實我也聽到很多就是說一般你現在是針對500就是500個廠\n\n00:38.482 --> 00:39.823\n明年1月1日開始開針,然後後年才要繳錢。\n\n00:59.133 --> 01:27.508\n那其實在地方有一些我講的是這個中小企業那他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去那其實他們對這個政府要徵收碳費其實他們也有很多意見那剛剛我有看到就是說環境部也有針對這個有到地方去開說明會那劉建國委員有特別提到就是說地方政府你們開說明會的時候或者是跟溝通\n\n01:28.328 --> 01:56.124\n跟地方政府好像這個是缺法的所以我也希望就是說希望這個環境部能夠針對地方政府的這個部分應該要再去做一個加強可能就是去做跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通因為有時候民眾的疑問他第一時間他應該是打到地方政府去詢問所以如果說地方政府你們應該也要讓他有這樣的一個觀念跟概念\n\n01:59.006 --> 02:05.451\n中小企業解決一些問題當然環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣環境部當然希望整個排碳的部分能夠減少經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收的\n\n02:23.025 --> 02:48.876\n這個價格可能會覺得說不太合理或者覺得太高那當然這個兩個立場不一樣我們可以理解那我想請教就是說未來就是說我們現在都已經定下來了那環境部跟經濟部如果說你們的立場不一樣的話那你們怎麼去溝通說服對方那讓經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商你就是要誠實誠實來\n\n02:52.700 --> 03:00.957\n來報這個這個碳費或誠實來申報應該是你們環境部跟經濟部應該要如果說整個立場是不一樣的話那你們怎麼溝通\n\n03:02.270 --> 03:22.871\n報告委員其實如果說不一樣的話其實這個是我們彼此要互相的溝通妥協那我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持不然的話其實這個制度是真的走不下去的所以這段過程我也真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多所以其實我是覺得這個部分委員你點到一個重點\n\n03:23.291 --> 03:48.573\n那未來呢我也會跟這真的因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是連協同作戰的所以這個部分我們會強化這個溝通那當然啦這個我也很尊重這個經濟部的意見因為他們有產業的壓力那我們也有環團的壓力那我們是政府是一體的所以其實我們未來會密切的再溝通這個因為楊署長其實我們也是長久的夥伴在各種方面我們會以後會多加溝通\n\n03:49.454 --> 04:04.513\n對,就是說我們看到這個碳費拍板之後那經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣而且是媒體,媒體直接寫出來那這個完全不一樣的情況之下那你們未來要推動就是應該\n\n04:05.754 --> 04:22.847\n就是經濟部你要去面對的是所有的廠家那環境部你面對的是所有的這個也許是環團那大家關心這個環境的這些這些人士那你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點那另外就是說明年開始申報那2026年開始開徵這個碳費\n\n04:26.569 --> 04:51.934\n所以如果能夠順利的話如果能夠順利就照這個部長講的可能就是一年可以有這個60億的這個碳費那當然如果說這個廠商他是要銷到他的產品是要銷到這個歐盟的話其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府的這樣的一個政策那如果說不是的話也許會有推動也許會有一些困難\n\n04:52.934 --> 04:53.254\n黃秀芳議員\n\n05:23.134 --> 05:37.900\n地方政府應該你們也要讓他知道這個整個狀況因為民眾很多他是直接打到地方政府去詢問是不是可以請部長在短期之內趕快進速跟地方政府可能有一些座談會或一些說明\n\n05:38.881 --> 05:58.019\n謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有\n\n05:59.560 --> 06:15.553\n所以我們把那個找出來我們有一個很好的座談那因為歐盟的問題齁出口是很重要的例如說螺絲螺帽業、扣件業還甚至很多特別的業其實他們的輔導幫忙的忙所以我未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去有一組人來去做協調\n\n06:16.654 --> 06:32.650\n我這個協調不是為了說碳費多少而已而是說這個未來的螺絲螺貓因為它在進出口的時候這個都需要一些氣候上的探權的談判這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙所以我們環境部會積極的做那這個未來也會跟這個經濟部一起協同作戰\n\n06:33.291 --> 06:47.408\n好那剛剛也有特別提到就是說你們針對這個收碳費或者是碳盤查可能你們環境部這邊人員這樣總共是多少人?現在90個人左右90個人嗎?那90個人目前來講這樣是夠嗎?不夠那不夠你們未來要怎麼辦?\n\n06:53.075 --> 07:10.618\n第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力然後有些需要一些委外的人力來去做辦理那當然啦其實現在的人才工部門的預算人才這個薪水是很困難的所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法因為現在的同仁都很辛苦都是靠著使命來做啦\n\n07:11.398 --> 07:28.619\n我會再盡量再想辦法所以剛剛部長那個有前面有委員講說你們身為這個環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣\n\n07:29.560 --> 07:35.084\n委員會主動在希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教\n\n07:54.296 --> 08:20.965\n所以我是覺得說部長你應該要去爭取就是說我們明年開始這個碳費開始申報那2026年要徵收那我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個跟行政院這邊應該去爭取爭取經費下來那你要有足夠的人力啊要不然你有這麼多事情要做那你人力不足的話其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難對\n\n08:22.866 --> 08:42.449\n那像這個的話地方政府需要配合什麼嗎?他需要配合第一個是未來這些知識地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與這個討論或是參與這個調查這個都是要中央跟地方特別是環保局的單位所以我們像這個是第一步我們也昨天第一個發布的是給各縣市環保局局長\n\n08:42.990 --> 08:43.110\n部長,你在\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.25,"end":5.197,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請彭部長"},{"start":10.004,"end":35.8,"text":"黃委員好部長好部長我從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都非常的關心這個可能有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員幾乎到目前為止都沒有人跳過就是直接有登記一定來質詢那就表示說這個議題是大家非常關心的那我在基層其實我也聽到很多就是說一般你現在是針對500就是500個廠"},{"start":38.482,"end":39.823,"text":"明年1月1日開始開針,然後後年才要繳錢。"},{"start":59.133,"end":87.508,"text":"那其實在地方有一些我講的是這個中小企業那他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去那其實他們對這個政府要徵收碳費其實他們也有很多意見那剛剛我有看到就是說環境部也有針對這個有到地方去開說明會那劉建國委員有特別提到就是說地方政府你們開說明會的時候或者是跟溝通"},{"start":88.328,"end":116.124,"text":"跟地方政府好像這個是缺法的所以我也希望就是說希望這個環境部能夠針對地方政府的這個部分應該要再去做一個加強可能就是去做跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通因為有時候民眾的疑問他第一時間他應該是打到地方政府去詢問所以如果說地方政府你們應該也要讓他有這樣的一個觀念跟概念"},{"start":119.006,"end":125.451,"text":"中小企業解決一些問題當然環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣環境部當然希望整個排碳的部分能夠減少經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收的"},{"start":143.025,"end":168.876,"text":"這個價格可能會覺得說不太合理或者覺得太高那當然這個兩個立場不一樣我們可以理解那我想請教就是說未來就是說我們現在都已經定下來了那環境部跟經濟部如果說你們的立場不一樣的話那你們怎麼去溝通說服對方那讓經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商你就是要誠實誠實來"},{"start":172.7,"end":180.957,"text":"來報這個這個碳費或誠實來申報應該是你們環境部跟經濟部應該要如果說整個立場是不一樣的話那你們怎麼溝通"},{"start":182.27,"end":202.871,"text":"報告委員其實如果說不一樣的話其實這個是我們彼此要互相的溝通妥協那我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持不然的話其實這個制度是真的走不下去的所以這段過程我也真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多所以其實我是覺得這個部分委員你點到一個重點"},{"start":203.291,"end":228.573,"text":"那未來呢我也會跟這真的因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是連協同作戰的所以這個部分我們會強化這個溝通那當然啦這個我也很尊重這個經濟部的意見因為他們有產業的壓力那我們也有環團的壓力那我們是政府是一體的所以其實我們未來會密切的再溝通這個因為楊署長其實我們也是長久的夥伴在各種方面我們會以後會多加溝通"},{"start":229.454,"end":244.513,"text":"對,就是說我們看到這個碳費拍板之後那經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣而且是媒體,媒體直接寫出來那這個完全不一樣的情況之下那你們未來要推動就是應該"},{"start":245.754,"end":262.847,"text":"就是經濟部你要去面對的是所有的廠家那環境部你面對的是所有的這個也許是環團那大家關心這個環境的這些這些人士那你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點那另外就是說明年開始申報那2026年開始開徵這個碳費"},{"start":266.569,"end":291.934,"text":"所以如果能夠順利的話如果能夠順利就照這個部長講的可能就是一年可以有這個60億的這個碳費那當然如果說這個廠商他是要銷到他的產品是要銷到這個歐盟的話其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府的這樣的一個政策那如果說不是的話也許會有推動也許會有一些困難"},{"start":292.934,"end":293.254,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":323.134,"end":337.9,"text":"地方政府應該你們也要讓他知道這個整個狀況因為民眾很多他是直接打到地方政府去詢問是不是可以請部長在短期之內趕快進速跟地方政府可能有一些座談會或一些說明"},{"start":338.881,"end":358.019,"text":"謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有"},{"start":359.56,"end":375.553,"text":"所以我們把那個找出來我們有一個很好的座談那因為歐盟的問題齁出口是很重要的例如說螺絲螺帽業、扣件業還甚至很多特別的業其實他們的輔導幫忙的忙所以我未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去有一組人來去做協調"},{"start":376.654,"end":392.65,"text":"我這個協調不是為了說碳費多少而已而是說這個未來的螺絲螺貓因為它在進出口的時候這個都需要一些氣候上的探權的談判這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙所以我們環境部會積極的做那這個未來也會跟這個經濟部一起協同作戰"},{"start":393.291,"end":407.408,"text":"好那剛剛也有特別提到就是說你們針對這個收碳費或者是碳盤查可能你們環境部這邊人員這樣總共是多少人?現在90個人左右90個人嗎?那90個人目前來講這樣是夠嗎?不夠那不夠你們未來要怎麼辦?"},{"start":413.075,"end":430.618,"text":"第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力然後有些需要一些委外的人力來去做辦理那當然啦其實現在的人才工部門的預算人才這個薪水是很困難的所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法因為現在的同仁都很辛苦都是靠著使命來做啦"},{"start":431.398,"end":448.619,"text":"我會再盡量再想辦法所以剛剛部長那個有前面有委員講說你們身為這個環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣"},{"start":449.56,"end":455.084,"text":"委員會主動在希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教"},{"start":474.296,"end":500.965,"text":"所以我是覺得說部長你應該要去爭取就是說我們明年開始這個碳費開始申報那2026年要徵收那我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個跟行政院這邊應該去爭取爭取經費下來那你要有足夠的人力啊要不然你有這麼多事情要做那你人力不足的話其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難對"},{"start":502.866,"end":522.449,"text":"那像這個的話地方政府需要配合什麼嗎?他需要配合第一個是未來這些知識地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與這個討論或是參與這個調查這個都是要中央跟地方特別是環保局的單位所以我們像這個是第一步我們也昨天第一個發布的是給各縣市環保局局長"},{"start":522.99,"end":523.11,"text":"部長,你在"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:25:47 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13:34:53","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155460,"gazette":{"lineno":1460,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（13時25分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我從早上聽到現在，其實很多委員都非常地關心，這個可能是有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員，到目前為止幾乎都沒有人跳過，就是有登記一定來質詢，就表示這個議題是大家非常關心的。我在基層其實也聽到很多，你現在是針對500……"],["彭部長啓明：500個廠。"],["黃委員秀芳：500個廠？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：目前有自主減量的，剛講的是目前已經有提出來的是？"],["彭部長啓明：還沒有提，就是我們預期……"],["黃委員秀芳：是明年開始……"],["彭部長啓明：明年開始要提。"],["黃委員秀芳：明年開始申報嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，開始要提，然後後年……"],["黃委員秀芳：開始徵收碳費？"],["彭部長啓明：明年1月1號開始開徵，然後後年才要繳錢。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，其實在地方有一些中小企業，他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去，他們對於政府要徵收碳費其實也有很多意見。剛剛我有看到環境部也針對這個部分有到地方去開說明會，劉建國委員有特別提到，你們開說明會或溝通的時候，跟地方政府好像這部分是缺乏的，所以我也希望環境部能夠針對地方政府的部分應該要再去做一個加強，就是跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通，因為有時候民眾有疑問，他第一時間應該是打到地方政府去詢問，所以你們應該也要讓地方政府有這樣的一個觀念跟概念，也幫這些中小企業解決一些問題。","接下來我想請教，環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣，環境部當然希望整個的排碳部分能夠減少，而經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收價格可能會覺得不太合理或者覺得太高，當然兩個立場不一樣，我們可以理解。我想請教，我們現在碳費價格都已經定下來了，如果環境部跟經濟部的立場不一樣的話，你們怎麼去溝通、說服對方？當然經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商，它就是要誠實報碳費或誠實申報，環境部跟經濟部如果整個立場是不一樣的話，那你們怎麼溝通？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，如果不一樣的話，其實我們彼此要互相溝通、妥協，我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持，不然的話，其實這個制度是真的走不下去的，所以這段過程我真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多。我是覺得這個部分委員點到一個重點，因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是協同作戰的，所以這個部分我們會強化溝通。當然我也很尊重經濟部的意見，因為他們有產業的壓力，我們也有環團的壓力，而政府是一體的，所以我們未來會密切地再溝通，因為楊署長和我們也是長久的夥伴，在各種方面我們以後會多加溝通。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，我們看到碳費拍板之後，經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣，而且是媒體直接寫出來。在完全不一樣的情況之下，你們未來要推動，就是經濟部要去面對的是所有的廠家；環境部面對的是所有的，也許是環團、關心環境的這些人士，你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點？另外，明年開始申報，2026年開始開徵碳費，如果能夠順利的話，照部長講的，可能1年可以有60億的碳費。當然，如果這個廠商的產品是要銷到歐盟的話，其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府這樣的一個政策，如果不是的話，也許推動會有一些困難，所以我覺得對於你們跟地方政府也好，其實在之前薛部長任內的時候，我就一直提到，希望跟地方要能夠有充分的溝通。因為很多人還不太清楚，甚至還有人問我，他原本有一塊地，上面原本就已經有種樹了，這個是不是可以抵？所以我覺得一般的民眾也不是那麼清楚，你們應該也要讓地方政府知道這整個狀況，因為很多民眾是直接打到地方政府去詢問，是不是可以請部長在短期之內儘速跟地方政府有一些座談會或說明會？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。因為我們臺灣有很多隱形冠軍，那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到，所以未來也希望委員在彰化幫我們的忙，因為彰化是臺灣隱形大冠軍的總部，所以看委員能不能幫我們的忙，等於就是找到那些隱形冠軍，因為他們其實有些可能我們經濟部的數據也不見得都有，所以把他們找出來，我們辦一個很好的座談。因為歐盟的問題，出口是很重要的，例如螺絲、螺帽等扣件業，甚至還有很多特別的業種，為了他們的輔導、幫他們忙，未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去，由一組人來做協調，這個協調不是為了說碳費值多少而已，而是說未來的螺絲、螺帽業在進出口的時候，都需要一些氣候上的碳權談判，這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙，所以我們環境部會積極地做，這個未來也會跟經濟部一起協同作戰。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛也有特別提到，針對收碳費或者是碳盤查，你們環境部這邊的人員總共是多少人？"],["彭部長啓明：現在90個人左右。"],["黃委員秀芳：90個人嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：以目前來講，這樣是夠的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不夠。"],["黃委員秀芳：不夠？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：不夠，你們未來要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力，然後有些需要一些委外的人力去辦理。當然，其實以現在公部門的預算，要請人才，這個薪水是很困難的，所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法，因為現在的同仁都很辛苦，都是靠著使命來做，我會儘量再想辦法，能夠……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以部長，剛剛前面有委員講說，你們升格為環境部之後的預算是不增反減，如果你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話，目前90個人，人力不足的話，你要怎麼樣讓人才願意進來？如果你這個經費又不足的話，又沒有人想要來做這一份工作，我覺得以後你要推動是有困難的。"],["彭部長啓明：是，所以委員這個我們會努力啦，我們部希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長，也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得部長應該要去爭取啦，我們明年碳費開始申報，2026年要徵收，我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個理由，跟行政院這邊爭取經費下來，你要有足夠的人力啊，要不然你有這麼多事情要做，人力不足的話，其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：像這個的話，地方政府需要配合什麼嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：它需要配合的，第一個是未來這些事項地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與討論或是參與調查，這個都是要中央跟地方，特別是環保局等單位，這個是第一步。我們昨天第一個發布的訊息是給各縣市環保局局長，讓他們可以知道，所以未來像這種溝通的事項，我們會把各縣市政府當成是我們的夥伴來進行。我也希望委員在彰化能協助，因為我知道彰化很多的朋友來跟我們討論這個話題，也希望有一個更明確的窗口來進行討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，你在明年的預算上面，應該要增加的還是要增加，我們在這個委員會讓環保署變成環境部，結果預算不增反減，這是一件很荒謬的事情。我相信你們只要編出來，委員會會支持的。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：接下來請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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