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00:00:26,680\n黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那一開始想要先跟部長就教現在這定價每噸整個大企業是每噸300塊嘛這個是怎麼折衝出來的這個數字\n\n3\n00:00:32,467 --> 00:00:57,405\n這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來\n\n4\n00:01:00,387 --> 00:01:21,313\n對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以\n\n5\n00:01:21,813 --> 00:01:37,679\n有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊\n\n6\n00:01:40,734 --> 00:02:09,986\n因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策?報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型\n\n7\n00:02:10,846 --> 00:02:34,436\n當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢\n\n8\n00:02:37,617 --> 00:03:06,176\n其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還是要擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告\n\n9\n00:03:06,937 --> 00:03:07,050\n黃健豪議員\n\n10\n00:03:07,717 --> 00:03:37,457\n企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願就是我剛剛提到的他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉就像是這個叫什麼叫贖罪券就是我就把錢付掉就好反正跟罰單一樣嘛我就付掉但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛\n\n11\n00:03:37,897 --> 00:03:38,657\n中小企業佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%\n\n12\n00:04:05,709 --> 00:04:28,241\n那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話我想問一下環境部到底這個費用跟他後續的還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分第一個是我這邊也謝謝委喔這個中小企業現階段如果你不是那500家500個廠你也不是金管會上市櫃公司你也不是這個供應鏈裡面的一環你其實你不用擔心的\n\n13\n00:04:28,601 --> 00:04:57,007\n所以這個第一個請企業不用擔心現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分\n\n14\n00:04:57,367 --> 00:05:14,961\n目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。\n\n15\n00:05:18,624 --> 00:05:37,482\n部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要由使用者來負擔嘛\n\n16\n00:05:38,183 --> 00:06:03,558\n那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理\n\n17\n00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:30,854\n報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到了燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數正在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的\n\n18\n00:06:31,835 --> 00:06:32,076\n黃健豪委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10338\t11959\t主席好 那我先請這個彭部長 請彭部長\n15565\t26680\t黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那一開始想要先跟部長就教現在這定價每噸整個大企業是每噸300塊嘛這個是怎麼折衝出來的這個數字\n32467\t57405\t這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來\n60387\t81313\t對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以\n81813\t97679\t有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊\n100734\t129986\t因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策?報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型\n130846\t154436\t當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢\n157617\t186176\t其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還是要擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告\n186937\t187050\t黃健豪議員\n187717\t217457\t企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願就是我剛剛提到的他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉就像是這個叫什麼叫贖罪券就是我就把錢付掉就好反正跟罰單一樣嘛我就付掉但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛\n217897\t218657\t中小企業佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%\n245709\t268241\t那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話我想問一下環境部到底這個費用跟他後續的還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分第一個是我這邊也謝謝委喔這個中小企業現階段如果你不是那500家500個廠你也不是金管會上市櫃公司你也不是這個供應鏈裡面的一環你其實你不用擔心的\n268601\t297007\t所以這個第一個請企業不用擔心現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分\n297367\t314961\t目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。\n318624\t337482\t部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要由使用者來負擔嘛\n338183\t363558\t那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理\n364639\t390854\t報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到了燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數正在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的\n391835\t392076\t黃健豪委員\n","txt":"主席好 那我先請這個彭部長 請彭部長\n黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那一開始想要先跟部長就教現在這定價每噸整個大企業是每噸300塊嘛這個是怎麼折衝出來的這個數字\n這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來\n對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以\n有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊\n因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策?報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型\n當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢\n其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還是要擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告\n黃健豪議員\n企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願就是我剛剛提到的他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉就像是這個叫什麼叫贖罪券就是我就把錢付掉就好反正跟罰單一樣嘛我就付掉但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛\n中小企業佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%\n那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話我想問一下環境部到底這個費用跟他後續的還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分第一個是我這邊也謝謝委喔這個中小企業現階段如果你不是那500家500個廠你也不是金管會上市櫃公司你也不是這個供應鏈裡面的一環你其實你不用擔心的\n所以這個第一個請企業不用擔心現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分\n目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。\n部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要由使用者來負擔嘛\n那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理\n報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到了燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數正在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的\n黃健豪委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.338 --> 00:11.959\n主席好那我先請這個彭部長請彭部長\n\n00:15.565 --> 00:26.680\n黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那一開始想要先跟部長就教現在這定價每噸整個大企業是每噸300塊嘛這個是怎麼折衝出來的這個數字\n\n00:32.467 --> 00:57.405\n這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來\n\n01:00.387 --> 01:21.313\n對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以\n\n01:21.813 --> 01:37.679\n有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊\n\n01:40.734 --> 02:09.986\n因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策?報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型\n\n02:10.846 --> 02:34.436\n當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢\n\n02:37.617 --> 03:06.176\n其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還是要擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告\n\n03:06.937 --> 03:07.050\n黃健豪議員\n\n03:07.717 --> 03:37.457\n企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願就是我剛剛提到的他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉就像是這個叫什麼叫贖罪券就是我就把錢付掉就好反正跟罰單一樣嘛我就付掉但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛\n\n03:37.897 --> 03:38.657\n中小企業佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%\n\n04:05.709 --> 04:28.241\n那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話我想問一下環境部到底這個費用跟他後續的還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分第一個是我這邊也謝謝委喔這個中小企業現階段如果你不是那500家500個廠你也不是金管會上市櫃公司你也不是這個供應鏈裡面的一環你其實你不用擔心的\n\n04:28.601 --> 04:57.007\n所以這個第一個請企業不用擔心現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分\n\n04:57.367 --> 05:14.961\n目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。\n\n05:18.624 --> 05:37.482\n部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要由使用者來負擔嘛\n\n05:38.183 --> 06:03.558\n那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理\n\n06:04.639 --> 06:30.854\n報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到了燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數正在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的\n\n06:31.835 --> 06:32.076\n黃健豪委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.338,"end":11.959,"text":"主席好 那我先請這個彭部長 請彭部長"},{"start":15.565,"end":26.68,"text":"黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那一開始想要先跟部長就教現在這定價每噸整個大企業是每噸300塊嘛這個是怎麼折衝出來的這個數字"},{"start":32.467,"end":57.405,"text":"這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來"},{"start":60.387,"end":81.313,"text":"對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以"},{"start":81.813,"end":97.679,"text":"有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊"},{"start":100.734,"end":129.986,"text":"因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策?報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型"},{"start":130.846,"end":154.436,"text":"當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢"},{"start":157.617,"end":186.176,"text":"其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還是要擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告"},{"start":186.937,"end":187.05,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":187.717,"end":217.457,"text":"企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願就是我剛剛提到的他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉就像是這個叫什麼叫贖罪券就是我就把錢付掉就好反正跟罰單一樣嘛我就付掉但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛"},{"start":217.897,"end":218.657,"text":"中小企業佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%"},{"start":245.709,"end":268.241,"text":"那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話我想問一下環境部到底這個費用跟他後續的還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分第一個是我這邊也謝謝委喔這個中小企業現階段如果你不是那500家500個廠你也不是金管會上市櫃公司你也不是這個供應鏈裡面的一環你其實你不用擔心的"},{"start":268.601,"end":297.007,"text":"所以這個第一個請企業不用擔心現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分"},{"start":297.367,"end":314.961,"text":"目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。"},{"start":318.624,"end":337.482,"text":"部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要由使用者來負擔嘛"},{"start":338.183,"end":363.558,"text":"那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理"},{"start":364.639,"end":390.854,"text":"報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到了燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數正在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的"},{"start":391.835,"end":392.076,"text":"黃健豪委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:35:30 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