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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,319 --> 00:00:09,702\n麻煩請彭部長還有循環署賴署長賴署長\n\n2\n00:00:20,012 --> 00:00:42,371\n在這個光輝十月我們的這個國慶日這個普天同慶的日子但是這個雲林有一家的資收廠有一位16年資歷的這個勞工摔進了這個機器裡面他的上半身是被絞碎的然後下半身是被打包起來的\n\n3\n00:00:44,056 --> 00:01:13,156\n這個死狀是非常的淒慘這樣子的一個公安事件那部長這個新聞你有關注嗎有我有看到那我想為了協助推動這個循環經濟的這個國家重大政策勞動部在上個月13日同意環境部的這個無工廠登記證資源化產業開放移工目前呢已經列管的這個資收廠總共有600多家相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦\n\n4\n00:01:13,656 --> 00:01:42,461\n他只是說這個當下本國勞工的這個工作環境已經差成這樣子那未來在引進外籍勞工的時候本席是會擔心就是說恐怕會有這個更差的這個狀況那環境部就是花了蠻多的經費在辦展覽但是對於這些特別是剛剛也提到這些這個資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題卻關心的比例是非常失衡的\n\n5\n00:01:43,021 --> 00:02:00,674\n所以因為環境部大概督查的這個對象大部分都是大廠還有這個模範廠那接下來呢環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商來做這個淨零碳排還有綠色成長所以本期是要求說\n\n6\n00:02:02,015 --> 00:02:28,129\n部長你對於針對這些這個資收業者的處理及這個處理業者的這個挹注的資源的協助然後還有你要協助他們這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換還有環境安全衛生以及勞動條件的提升然後來建構這個完善的循環經濟的政策目標部長我以上建議你能不能採納然後可以做到嗎\n\n7\n00:02:29,009 --> 00:02:46,705\n謝謝委員其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手所以我其實淨零裡面我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金其實都把循環經濟這種資源循環這種回收的把它放進去那這個細節關於這個案例是不是請我署長再做一個回覆\n\n8\n00:02:48,660 --> 00:02:51,021\n請回座接下來我另外再請那個氣候變遷署的蔡署長\n\n9\n00:03:20,229 --> 00:03:39,700\n目前環境部已經針對這個碳費徵收的這個三項執法制定完成表示說,碳排放減少的方向已經就比較逐漸的在明朗化比較明確了那也有專屬的網頁說明這是一件好事只是說因為我在看這個網頁就是一看就是看到這個師師開講\n\n10\n00:03:43,530 --> 00:04:11,698\n部長你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫施施開獎施施有兩種因為我們施政是一個有名的這個國際貿易法的專家、探權的專家所以這個是我特別因為我們環境部公關費不多就特別請他來幫忙做這樣的宣導那我也替大家謝謝你那只是說如果今天是換人他沒有在這個位置做這個工作換人開獎的時候那要叫什麼\n\n11\n00:04:12,418 --> 00:04:19,248\n彭斯嗎?還是...好的我...這是一個短期的啦,就短期漢貝的,你會不會很長期?\n\n12\n00:04:20,908 --> 00:04:32,895\n我們的詩詩可以先回座,只是因為提一下這樣子在今天的專案報告前的詩詩開講是已經有講就是說收費的281家有500間工廠左右這個排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量\n\n13\n00:04:43,721 --> 00:04:55,713\n這個占全國排放總量的54%,那是不是表示說我們台灣一年的總碳排換算大概是287百萬公噸,是這樣沒錯嗎?對,沒錯。\n\n14\n00:05:00,097 --> 00:05:21,404\n那接下來我要請教部長就是說因為目前我們大概只是好像只是關注這個碳費要如何徵收所以在各個產業似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司可是呢這個歐盟跟英國他也會在2026年還有2027年來透過這個CBAN的制度來徵收碳稅\n\n15\n00:05:25,205 --> 00:05:41,241\n那環境部你們有沒有評估過說還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊還有這樣的狀況應該要如何因應因為畢竟這整個來說這個時間是非常有限的特別是就是說排放量不足2.5萬噸的這個製造業的廠商\n\n16\n00:05:46,185 --> 00:06:13,183\n在確定台灣政府不會徵收的前提之下那未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費有沒有這樣可能?其實第一個是我們的這個2.5未來會往下調這是確定的兩年調整一次那第二個是因為減碳是國際上一定要碳定價是國際的趨勢所以基本上如果他未來任何的企業他只要想外銷的話\n\n17\n00:06:13,743 --> 00:06:23,809\n對,其實要逐步的,就是說如果這個企業是內銷型的,他當然影響比較小,那如果他要出口到國際上的,他當然就有一定的壓力,所以要提早佈局,就是這個的由來。\n\n18\n00:06:36,957 --> 00:07:01,928\n我另外要提一個問題就是說你們用詞你們環境部用詞的問題在你們的這個事事開講有講到就是114年114年的開徵但是實際上我們都知道就是比如說我們今年114年如果申報那真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用這樣沒有錯\n\n19\n00:07:05,229 --> 00:07:30,610\n到底什麼時候開始實行在你們報告第一段說中國已經開始實施碳費徵收那我要請教就是說他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了因為畢竟我們就是說雖然兩岸現況不是統一的但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一這樣才不會造成說國內業者的困擾\n\n20\n00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:42,345\n報告委員,其實中國是用這個碳交易的制度,針對電力業,首先是電力業,他也逐步的在跨,他們很早就開始在試點,大概在10多年前就開始進行了。\n\n21\n00:07:43,137 --> 00:07:57,210\n所以現在所以他們算是已經繳費了已經用碳交易就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度好再來就是我另外要請教的是一個技術的問題就是收費公式這個\n\n22\n00:08:01,897 --> 00:08:28,007\n我們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整\n\n23\n00:08:30,356 --> 00:08:54,418\n是這樣嗎?對那未來：而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?\n\n24\n00:08:55,526 --> 00:09:15,336\n跟委員報告這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數\n\n25\n00:09:21,260 --> 00:09:35,639\n我知道啊,但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折,我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折,第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說\n\n26\n00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,403\n因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴重\n\n27\n00:10:01,517 --> 00:10:26,536\n對我我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折\n\n28\n00:10:28,025 --> 00:10:53,786\n但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳\n\n29\n00:10:54,446 --> 00:11:10,602\n所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣想,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多,然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少。\n\n30\n00:11:11,684 --> 00:11:30,636\n那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭\n\n31\n00:11:32,907 --> 00:11:50,200\n有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理\n\n32\n00:11:53,392 --> 00:12:15,607\n謝謝,我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在\n\n33\n00:12:18,829 --> 00:12:33,536\n你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值\n\n34\n00:12:37,083 --> 00:12:44,666\n因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊\n\n35\n00:13:04,468 --> 00:13:05,709\n2.5萬公噸3100萬公噸是佔多少?很低\n\n36\n00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:33,452\n2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做數字套還是\n\n37\n00:13:51,984 --> 00:14:11,098\n這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字\n\n38\n00:14:17,694 --> 00:14:21,224\n我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊\n\n39\n00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:31,753\n我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是\n\n40\n00:14:50,538 --> 00:14:50,798\n剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?\n\n41\n00:15:11,872 --> 00:15:11,892\n陳瑩委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7319\t9702\t麻煩請彭部長還有循環署賴署長賴署長\n20012\t42371\t在這個光輝十月我們的這個國慶日這個普天同慶的日子但是這個雲林有一家的資收廠有一位16年資歷的這個勞工摔進了這個機器裡面他的上半身是被絞碎的然後下半身是被打包起來的\n44056\t73156\t這個死狀是非常的淒慘這樣子的一個公安事件那部長這個新聞你有關注嗎有我有看到那我想為了協助推動這個循環經濟的這個國家重大政策勞動部在上個月13日同意環境部的這個無工廠登記證資源化產業開放移工目前呢已經列管的這個資收廠總共有600多家相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦\n73656\t102461\t他只是說這個當下本國勞工的這個工作環境已經差成這樣子那未來在引進外籍勞工的時候本席是會擔心就是說恐怕會有這個更差的這個狀況那環境部就是花了蠻多的經費在辦展覽但是對於這些特別是剛剛也提到這些這個資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題卻關心的比例是非常失衡的\n103021\t120674\t所以因為環境部大概督查的這個對象大部分都是大廠還有這個模範廠那接下來呢環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商來做這個淨零碳排還有綠色成長所以本期是要求說\n122015\t148129\t部長你對於針對這些這個資收業者的處理及這個處理業者的這個挹注的資源的協助然後還有你要協助他們這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換還有環境安全衛生以及勞動條件的提升然後來建構這個完善的循環經濟的政策目標部長我以上建議你能不能採納然後可以做到嗎\n149009\t166705\t謝謝委員其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手所以我其實淨零裡面我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金其實都把循環經濟這種資源循環這種回收的把它放進去那這個細節關於這個案例是不是請我署長再做一個回覆\n168660\t171021\t請回座接下來我另外再請那個氣候變遷署的蔡署長\n200229\t219700\t目前環境部已經針對這個碳費徵收的這個三項執法制定完成表示說,碳排放減少的方向已經就比較逐漸的在明朗化比較明確了那也有專屬的網頁說明這是一件好事只是說因為我在看這個網頁就是一看就是看到這個師師開講\n223530\t251698\t部長你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫施施開獎施施有兩種因為我們施政是一個有名的這個國際貿易法的專家、探權的專家所以這個是我特別因為我們環境部公關費不多就特別請他來幫忙做這樣的宣導那我也替大家謝謝你那只是說如果今天是換人他沒有在這個位置做這個工作換人開獎的時候那要叫什麼\n252418\t259248\t彭斯嗎?還是...好的我...這是一個短期的啦,就短期漢貝的,你會不會很長期?\n260908\t272895\t我們的詩詩可以先回座,只是因為提一下這樣子在今天的專案報告前的詩詩開講是已經有講就是說收費的281家有500間工廠左右這個排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量\n283721\t295713\t這個占全國排放總量的54%,那是不是表示說我們台灣一年的總碳排換算大概是287百萬公噸,是這樣沒錯嗎?對,沒錯。\n300097\t321404\t那接下來我要請教部長就是說因為目前我們大概只是好像只是關注這個碳費要如何徵收所以在各個產業似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司可是呢這個歐盟跟英國他也會在2026年還有2027年來透過這個CBAN的制度來徵收碳稅\n325205\t341241\t那環境部你們有沒有評估過說還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊還有這樣的狀況應該要如何因應因為畢竟這整個來說這個時間是非常有限的特別是就是說排放量不足2.5萬噸的這個製造業的廠商\n346185\t373183\t在確定台灣政府不會徵收的前提之下那未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費有沒有這樣可能?其實第一個是我們的這個2.5未來會往下調這是確定的兩年調整一次那第二個是因為減碳是國際上一定要碳定價是國際的趨勢所以基本上如果他未來任何的企業他只要想外銷的話\n373743\t383809\t對,其實要逐步的,就是說如果這個企業是內銷型的,他當然影響比較小,那如果他要出口到國際上的,他當然就有一定的壓力,所以要提早佈局,就是這個的由來。\n396957\t421928\t我另外要提一個問題就是說你們用詞你們環境部用詞的問題在你們的這個事事開講有講到就是114年114年的開徵但是實際上我們都知道就是比如說我們今年114年如果申報那真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用這樣沒有錯\n425229\t450610\t到底什麼時候開始實行在你們報告第一段說中國已經開始實施碳費徵收那我要請教就是說他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了因為畢竟我們就是說雖然兩岸現況不是統一的但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一這樣才不會造成說國內業者的困擾\n451480\t462345\t報告委員,其實中國是用這個碳交易的制度,針對電力業,首先是電力業,他也逐步的在跨,他們很早就開始在試點,大概在10多年前就開始進行了。\n463137\t477210\t所以現在所以他們算是已經繳費了已經用碳交易就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度好再來就是我另外要請教的是一個技術的問題就是收費公式這個\n481897\t508007\t我們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整\n510356\t534418\t是這樣嗎?對那未來：而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?\n535526\t555336\t跟委員報告 這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數\n561260\t575639\t我知道啊,但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折,我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折,第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說\n576320\t580403\t因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴重\n601517\t626536\t對我我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折\n628025\t653786\t但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳\n654446\t670602\t所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣想,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多,然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少。\n671684\t690636\t那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭\n692907\t710200\t有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理\n713392\t735607\t謝謝,我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在\n738829\t753536\t你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值\n757083\t764666\t因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊\n784468\t785709\t2.5萬公噸3100萬公噸是佔多少?很低\n809090\t813452\t2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做數字套還是\n831984\t851098\t這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字\n857694\t861224\t我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊\n862930\t871753\t我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是\n890538\t890798\t剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?\n911872\t911892\t陳瑩委員\n","txt":"麻煩請彭部長還有循環署賴署長賴署長\n在這個光輝十月我們的這個國慶日這個普天同慶的日子但是這個雲林有一家的資收廠有一位16年資歷的這個勞工摔進了這個機器裡面他的上半身是被絞碎的然後下半身是被打包起來的\n這個死狀是非常的淒慘這樣子的一個公安事件那部長這個新聞你有關注嗎有我有看到那我想為了協助推動這個循環經濟的這個國家重大政策勞動部在上個月13日同意環境部的這個無工廠登記證資源化產業開放移工目前呢已經列管的這個資收廠總共有600多家相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦\n他只是說這個當下本國勞工的這個工作環境已經差成這樣子那未來在引進外籍勞工的時候本席是會擔心就是說恐怕會有這個更差的這個狀況那環境部就是花了蠻多的經費在辦展覽但是對於這些特別是剛剛也提到這些這個資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題卻關心的比例是非常失衡的\n所以因為環境部大概督查的這個對象大部分都是大廠還有這個模範廠那接下來呢環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商來做這個淨零碳排還有綠色成長所以本期是要求說\n部長你對於針對這些這個資收業者的處理及這個處理業者的這個挹注的資源的協助然後還有你要協助他們這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換還有環境安全衛生以及勞動條件的提升然後來建構這個完善的循環經濟的政策目標部長我以上建議你能不能採納然後可以做到嗎\n謝謝委員其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手所以我其實淨零裡面我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金其實都把循環經濟這種資源循環這種回收的把它放進去那這個細節關於這個案例是不是請我署長再做一個回覆\n請回座接下來我另外再請那個氣候變遷署的蔡署長\n目前環境部已經針對這個碳費徵收的這個三項執法制定完成表示說,碳排放減少的方向已經就比較逐漸的在明朗化比較明確了那也有專屬的網頁說明這是一件好事只是說因為我在看這個網頁就是一看就是看到這個師師開講\n部長你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫施施開獎施施有兩種因為我們施政是一個有名的這個國際貿易法的專家、探權的專家所以這個是我特別因為我們環境部公關費不多就特別請他來幫忙做這樣的宣導那我也替大家謝謝你那只是說如果今天是換人他沒有在這個位置做這個工作換人開獎的時候那要叫什麼\n彭斯嗎?還是...好的我...這是一個短期的啦,就短期漢貝的,你會不會很長期?\n我們的詩詩可以先回座,只是因為提一下這樣子在今天的專案報告前的詩詩開講是已經有講就是說收費的281家有500間工廠左右這個排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量\n這個占全國排放總量的54%,那是不是表示說我們台灣一年的總碳排換算大概是287百萬公噸,是這樣沒錯嗎?對,沒錯。\n那接下來我要請教部長就是說因為目前我們大概只是好像只是關注這個碳費要如何徵收所以在各個產業似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司可是呢這個歐盟跟英國他也會在2026年還有2027年來透過這個CBAN的制度來徵收碳稅\n那環境部你們有沒有評估過說還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊還有這樣的狀況應該要如何因應因為畢竟這整個來說這個時間是非常有限的特別是就是說排放量不足2.5萬噸的這個製造業的廠商\n在確定台灣政府不會徵收的前提之下那未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費有沒有這樣可能?其實第一個是我們的這個2.5未來會往下調這是確定的兩年調整一次那第二個是因為減碳是國際上一定要碳定價是國際的趨勢所以基本上如果他未來任何的企業他只要想外銷的話\n對,其實要逐步的,就是說如果這個企業是內銷型的,他當然影響比較小,那如果他要出口到國際上的,他當然就有一定的壓力,所以要提早佈局,就是這個的由來。\n我另外要提一個問題就是說你們用詞你們環境部用詞的問題在你們的這個事事開講有講到就是114年114年的開徵但是實際上我們都知道就是比如說我們今年114年如果申報那真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用這樣沒有錯\n到底什麼時候開始實行在你們報告第一段說中國已經開始實施碳費徵收那我要請教就是說他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了因為畢竟我們就是說雖然兩岸現況不是統一的但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一這樣才不會造成說國內業者的困擾\n報告委員,其實中國是用這個碳交易的制度,針對電力業,首先是電力業,他也逐步的在跨,他們很早就開始在試點,大概在10多年前就開始進行了。\n所以現在所以他們算是已經繳費了已經用碳交易就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度好再來就是我另外要請教的是一個技術的問題就是收費公式這個\n我們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整\n是這樣嗎?對那未來：而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?\n跟委員報告 這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數\n我知道啊,但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折,我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折,第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說\n因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴重\n對我我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折\n但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳\n所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣想,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多,然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少。\n那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭\n有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理\n謝謝,我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在\n你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值\n因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊\n2.5萬公噸3100萬公噸是佔多少?很低\n2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做數字套還是\n這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字\n我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊\n我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是\n剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?\n陳瑩委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.319 --> 00:09.702\n麻煩請彭部長還有循環署賴署長賴署長\n\n00:20.012 --> 00:42.371\n在這個光輝十月我們的這個國慶日這個普天同慶的日子但是這個雲林有一家的資收廠有一位16年資歷的這個勞工摔進了這個機器裡面他的上半身是被絞碎的然後下半身是被打包起來的\n\n00:44.056 --> 01:13.156\n這個死狀是非常的淒慘這樣子的一個公安事件那部長這個新聞你有關注嗎有我有看到那我想為了協助推動這個循環經濟的這個國家重大政策勞動部在上個月13日同意環境部的這個無工廠登記證資源化產業開放移工目前呢已經列管的這個資收廠總共有600多家相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦\n\n01:13.656 --> 01:42.461\n他只是說這個當下本國勞工的這個工作環境已經差成這樣子那未來在引進外籍勞工的時候本席是會擔心就是說恐怕會有這個更差的這個狀況那環境部就是花了蠻多的經費在辦展覽但是對於這些特別是剛剛也提到這些這個資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題卻關心的比例是非常失衡的\n\n01:43.021 --> 02:00.674\n所以因為環境部大概督查的這個對象大部分都是大廠還有這個模範廠那接下來呢環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商來做這個淨零碳排還有綠色成長所以本期是要求說\n\n02:02.015 --> 02:28.129\n部長你對於針對這些這個資收業者的處理及這個處理業者的這個挹注的資源的協助然後還有你要協助他們這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換還有環境安全衛生以及勞動條件的提升然後來建構這個完善的循環經濟的政策目標部長我以上建議你能不能採納然後可以做到嗎\n\n02:29.009 --> 02:46.705\n謝謝委員其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手所以我其實淨零裡面我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金其實都把循環經濟這種資源循環這種回收的把它放進去那這個細節關於這個案例是不是請我署長再做一個回覆\n\n02:48.660 --> 02:51.021\n請回座接下來我另外再請那個氣候變遷署的蔡署長\n\n03:20.229 --> 03:39.700\n目前環境部已經針對這個碳費徵收的這個三項執法制定完成表示說,碳排放減少的方向已經就比較逐漸的在明朗化比較明確了那也有專屬的網頁說明這是一件好事只是說因為我在看這個網頁就是一看就是看到這個師師開講\n\n03:43.530 --> 04:11.698\n部長你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫施施開獎施施有兩種因為我們施政是一個有名的這個國際貿易法的專家、探權的專家所以這個是我特別因為我們環境部公關費不多就特別請他來幫忙做這樣的宣導那我也替大家謝謝你那只是說如果今天是換人他沒有在這個位置做這個工作換人開獎的時候那要叫什麼\n\n04:12.418 --> 04:19.248\n彭斯嗎?還是...好的我...這是一個短期的啦,就短期漢貝的,你會不會很長期?\n\n04:20.908 --> 04:32.895\n我們的詩詩可以先回座,只是因為提一下這樣子在今天的專案報告前的詩詩開講是已經有講就是說收費的281家有500間工廠左右這個排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量\n\n04:43.721 --> 04:55.713\n這個占全國排放總量的54%,那是不是表示說我們台灣一年的總碳排換算大概是287百萬公噸,是這樣沒錯嗎?對,沒錯。\n\n05:00.097 --> 05:21.404\n那接下來我要請教部長就是說因為目前我們大概只是好像只是關注這個碳費要如何徵收所以在各個產業似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司可是呢這個歐盟跟英國他也會在2026年還有2027年來透過這個CBAN的制度來徵收碳稅\n\n05:25.205 --> 05:41.241\n那環境部你們有沒有評估過說還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊還有這樣的狀況應該要如何因應因為畢竟這整個來說這個時間是非常有限的特別是就是說排放量不足2.5萬噸的這個製造業的廠商\n\n05:46.185 --> 06:13.183\n在確定台灣政府不會徵收的前提之下那未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費有沒有這樣可能?其實第一個是我們的這個2.5未來會往下調這是確定的兩年調整一次那第二個是因為減碳是國際上一定要碳定價是國際的趨勢所以基本上如果他未來任何的企業他只要想外銷的話\n\n06:13.743 --> 06:23.809\n對,其實要逐步的,就是說如果這個企業是內銷型的,他當然影響比較小,那如果他要出口到國際上的,他當然就有一定的壓力,所以要提早佈局,就是這個的由來。\n\n06:36.957 --> 07:01.928\n我另外要提一個問題就是說你們用詞你們環境部用詞的問題在你們的這個事事開講有講到就是114年114年的開徵但是實際上我們都知道就是比如說我們今年114年如果申報那真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用這樣沒有錯\n\n07:05.229 --> 07:30.610\n到底什麼時候開始實行在你們報告第一段說中國已經開始實施碳費徵收那我要請教就是說他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了因為畢竟我們就是說雖然兩岸現況不是統一的但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一這樣才不會造成說國內業者的困擾\n\n07:31.480 --> 07:42.345\n報告委員,其實中國是用這個碳交易的制度,針對電力業,首先是電力業,他也逐步的在跨,他們很早就開始在試點,大概在10多年前就開始進行了。\n\n07:43.137 --> 07:57.210\n所以現在所以他們算是已經繳費了已經用碳交易就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度好再來就是我另外要請教的是一個技術的問題就是收費公式這個\n\n08:01.897 --> 08:28.007\n我們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整\n\n08:30.356 --> 08:54.418\n是這樣嗎?對那未來：而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?\n\n08:55.526 --> 09:15.336\n跟委員報告這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數\n\n09:21.260 --> 09:35.639\n我知道啊,但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折,我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折,第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說\n\n09:36.320 --> 09:40.403\n因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴重\n\n10:01.517 --> 10:26.536\n對我我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折\n\n10:28.025 --> 10:53.786\n但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳\n\n10:54.446 --> 11:10.602\n所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣想,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多,然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少。\n\n11:11.684 --> 11:30.636\n那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭\n\n11:32.907 --> 11:50.200\n有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理\n\n11:53.392 --> 12:15.607\n謝謝,我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在\n\n12:18.829 --> 12:33.536\n你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值\n\n12:37.083 --> 12:44.666\n因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊\n\n13:04.468 --> 13:05.709\n2.5萬公噸3100萬公噸是佔多少?很低\n\n13:29.090 --> 13:33.452\n2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做數字套還是\n\n13:51.984 --> 14:11.098\n這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字\n\n14:17.694 --> 14:21.224\n我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊\n\n14:22.930 --> 14:31.753\n我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是\n\n14:50.538 --> 14:50.798\n剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?\n\n15:11.872 --> 15:11.892\n陳瑩委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.319,"end":9.702,"text":"麻煩請彭部長還有循環署賴署長賴署長"},{"start":20.012,"end":42.371,"text":"在這個光輝十月我們的這個國慶日這個普天同慶的日子但是這個雲林有一家的資收廠有一位16年資歷的這個勞工摔進了這個機器裡面他的上半身是被絞碎的然後下半身是被打包起來的"},{"start":44.056,"end":73.156,"text":"這個死狀是非常的淒慘這樣子的一個公安事件那部長這個新聞你有關注嗎有我有看到那我想為了協助推動這個循環經濟的這個國家重大政策勞動部在上個月13日同意環境部的這個無工廠登記證資源化產業開放移工目前呢已經列管的這個資收廠總共有600多家相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦"},{"start":73.656,"end":102.461,"text":"他只是說這個當下本國勞工的這個工作環境已經差成這樣子那未來在引進外籍勞工的時候本席是會擔心就是說恐怕會有這個更差的這個狀況那環境部就是花了蠻多的經費在辦展覽但是對於這些特別是剛剛也提到這些這個資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題卻關心的比例是非常失衡的"},{"start":103.021,"end":120.674,"text":"所以因為環境部大概督查的這個對象大部分都是大廠還有這個模範廠那接下來呢環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商來做這個淨零碳排還有綠色成長所以本期是要求說"},{"start":122.015,"end":148.129,"text":"部長你對於針對這些這個資收業者的處理及這個處理業者的這個挹注的資源的協助然後還有你要協助他們這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換還有環境安全衛生以及勞動條件的提升然後來建構這個完善的循環經濟的政策目標部長我以上建議你能不能採納然後可以做到嗎"},{"start":149.009,"end":166.705,"text":"謝謝委員其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手所以我其實淨零裡面我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金其實都把循環經濟這種資源循環這種回收的把它放進去那這個細節關於這個案例是不是請我署長再做一個回覆"},{"start":168.66,"end":171.021,"text":"請回座接下來我另外再請那個氣候變遷署的蔡署長"},{"start":200.229,"end":219.7,"text":"目前環境部已經針對這個碳費徵收的這個三項執法制定完成表示說,碳排放減少的方向已經就比較逐漸的在明朗化比較明確了那也有專屬的網頁說明這是一件好事只是說因為我在看這個網頁就是一看就是看到這個師師開講"},{"start":223.53,"end":251.698,"text":"部長你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫施施開獎施施有兩種因為我們施政是一個有名的這個國際貿易法的專家、探權的專家所以這個是我特別因為我們環境部公關費不多就特別請他來幫忙做這樣的宣導那我也替大家謝謝你那只是說如果今天是換人他沒有在這個位置做這個工作換人開獎的時候那要叫什麼"},{"start":252.418,"end":259.248,"text":"彭斯嗎?還是...好的我...這是一個短期的啦,就短期漢貝的,你會不會很長期?"},{"start":260.908,"end":272.895,"text":"我們的詩詩可以先回座,只是因為提一下這樣子在今天的專案報告前的詩詩開講是已經有講就是說收費的281家有500間工廠左右這個排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量"},{"start":283.721,"end":295.713,"text":"這個占全國排放總量的54%,那是不是表示說我們台灣一年的總碳排換算大概是287百萬公噸,是這樣沒錯嗎?對,沒錯。"},{"start":300.097,"end":321.404,"text":"那接下來我要請教部長就是說因為目前我們大概只是好像只是關注這個碳費要如何徵收所以在各個產業似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司可是呢這個歐盟跟英國他也會在2026年還有2027年來透過這個CBAN的制度來徵收碳稅"},{"start":325.205,"end":341.241,"text":"那環境部你們有沒有評估過說還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊還有這樣的狀況應該要如何因應因為畢竟這整個來說這個時間是非常有限的特別是就是說排放量不足2.5萬噸的這個製造業的廠商"},{"start":346.185,"end":373.183,"text":"在確定台灣政府不會徵收的前提之下那未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費有沒有這樣可能?其實第一個是我們的這個2.5未來會往下調這是確定的兩年調整一次那第二個是因為減碳是國際上一定要碳定價是國際的趨勢所以基本上如果他未來任何的企業他只要想外銷的話"},{"start":373.743,"end":383.809,"text":"對,其實要逐步的,就是說如果這個企業是內銷型的,他當然影響比較小,那如果他要出口到國際上的,他當然就有一定的壓力,所以要提早佈局,就是這個的由來。"},{"start":396.957,"end":421.928,"text":"我另外要提一個問題就是說你們用詞你們環境部用詞的問題在你們的這個事事開講有講到就是114年114年的開徵但是實際上我們都知道就是比如說我們今年114年如果申報那真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用這樣沒有錯"},{"start":425.229,"end":450.61,"text":"到底什麼時候開始實行在你們報告第一段說中國已經開始實施碳費徵收那我要請教就是說他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了因為畢竟我們就是說雖然兩岸現況不是統一的但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一這樣才不會造成說國內業者的困擾"},{"start":451.48,"end":462.345,"text":"報告委員,其實中國是用這個碳交易的制度,針對電力業,首先是電力業,他也逐步的在跨,他們很早就開始在試點,大概在10多年前就開始進行了。"},{"start":463.137,"end":477.21,"text":"所以現在所以他們算是已經繳費了已經用碳交易就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度好再來就是我另外要請教的是一個技術的問題就是收費公式這個"},{"start":481.897,"end":508.007,"text":"我們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整"},{"start":510.356,"end":534.418,"text":"是這樣嗎?對那未來：而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?"},{"start":535.526,"end":555.336,"text":"跟委員報告 這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數"},{"start":561.26,"end":575.639,"text":"我知道啊,但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折,我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折,第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說"},{"start":576.32,"end":580.403,"text":"因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴重"},{"start":601.517,"end":626.536,"text":"對我我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折"},{"start":628.025,"end":653.786,"text":"但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳"},{"start":654.446,"end":670.602,"text":"所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣想,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多,然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少。"},{"start":671.684,"end":690.636,"text":"那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭"},{"start":692.907,"end":710.2,"text":"有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理"},{"start":713.392,"end":735.607,"text":"謝謝,我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在"},{"start":738.829,"end":753.536,"text":"你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值"},{"start":757.083,"end":764.666,"text":"因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊"},{"start":784.468,"end":785.709,"text":"2.5萬公噸3100萬公噸是佔多少?很低"},{"start":809.09,"end":813.452,"text":"2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做數字套還是"},{"start":831.984,"end":851.098,"text":"這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字"},{"start":857.694,"end":861.224,"text":"我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊"},{"start":862.93,"end":871.753,"text":"我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是"},{"start":890.538,"end":890.798,"text":"剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?"},{"start":911.872,"end":911.892,"text":"陳瑩委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:49:30 - 14:04:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":155463,"gazette":{"lineno":1559,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時49分）麻煩請彭部長，還有循環署賴署長。"],["主席：請彭部長、賴署長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。部長，在光輝10月我們國慶日這個普天同慶的日子，雲林有一家資收場有一位16年資歷的勞工摔進了機器裡面，他的上半身是被絞碎的，然後下半身是被打包起來的，死狀是非常的淒慘，有這樣子的一個工安事件，部長，這個新聞你有關注嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，我有看到。"],["陳委員瑩：好。為了協助推動循環經濟這個國家重大政策，勞動部在上個月13日，同意資源化產業無工廠登記證業者開放移工，目前環境部已經列管的資收場總共有六百多家，相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦！只是說當下本國勞工的工作環境已經差成這樣子，未來在引進外籍勞工的時候，本席是擔心恐怕會有更差的狀況。環境部花了滿多的經費在辦展覽，但是對於這些，特別是剛剛也提到這些資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題，關心的比例是非常失衡的。因為環境部大概督察的對象大部分都是大廠，還有模範廠，而接下來環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商做淨零碳排還有綠色成長，所以本席是要求部長，針對這些資收業者及處理業者挹注資源來協助，還有你要協助這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換，以及透過環境安全、衛生以及勞動條件的提升，來建構完善的循環經濟的政策目標。部長，我以上的建議你能不能採納？可以做到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手，所以淨零裡面，我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金，都把循環經濟這種資源循環、回收的把它放進去。這個細節，關於這個案例，是不是請署長來做一個回復？"],["陳委員瑩：你簡短時間，因為我後面還有很多問題。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是。在消防跟職安部分，是我們現在在資源回收我們有在推動的，包括跟消防署一起來進行輔導，另外對於加強回收處理業，我們也辦一些講習還有訓練。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想就以這個案例作為一個警惕啦！賴署長請回座。接下來我另外再請氣候變遷署的蔡署長。","目前環境部已經針對碳費徵收的三項子法制定完成，表示碳排放減少的方向已經逐漸的在明朗化、比較明確了，也有專屬的網頁說明，這是一件好事啦！只是說我看這個網頁，一看就是看到這個「施師開講」，部長，你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫「施師開講」？「施師」、「獅師」有兩種？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們施政次是一個有名的國際貿易法的專家、碳權的專家啦！因為我們環境部公關費不多，所以就特別請他「免錢」的來幫忙做這樣的宣導。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我也替大家謝謝你，只是如果今天換人，他沒有在這個位置做這個工作，要換人開講的時候要叫什麼？彭師嗎？還是……"],["彭部長啓明：這是一個短期的啦！關於碳費的，不會是長期。"],["陳委員瑩：OK，OK，好，謝謝。我們的施師可以先回座，只是提一下這樣子。在今天的專案報告前的「施師開講」已經有講，就是收費的281家有500間工廠左右，排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量，占全國排放總量的54%，是不是表示我們臺灣1年總碳排換算下來大概是287百萬公噸，是這樣沒錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：好，接下來我要請教部長，因為目前我們好像只是關注碳費要如何徵收，所以在各個產業，似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司，可是歐盟跟英國，它也會在2026年還有2027年透過CBAM的制度來徵收碳稅，環境部有沒有評估過還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊，這樣的狀況應該要如何因應？畢竟整個來說這個時間是非常有限的，特別是排放量不足2.5萬噸製造業的廠商，在確定臺灣政府不會徵收的前提之下，未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費，有沒有這樣的可能？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我們的2.5未來會往下調，這是確定的，兩年調整一次；第二個，因為減碳是國際上……碳定價是國際的趨勢啦，基本上，如果未來任何的企業只要想外銷的話，都有必須要被課到碳費、碳稅的可能性存在，其實這個都必須要做的啦！"],["陳委員瑩：所以就比較不會有我剛剛擔心的那些問題？"],["彭部長啓明：對，其實要逐步的，就是如果這個企業是內銷型的，當然影響比較小；如果它要出口到國際上的，當然就有一定的壓力，所以要提早布局，就是這個由來。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我另外要提一個問題，就是你們環境部用詞的問題，在你們的「施師開講」有講到114年開徵，但是實際上我們都知道，譬如說我們114年申報，真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用，這樣沒有錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：那到底什麼時候開始實行？在你們的報告第一段說，中國已經開始實施碳費徵收，我要請教就是他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了？雖然兩岸現況不是統一的，但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一，這樣才不會造成國內業者的困擾。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實中國是用碳交易的制度針對電力業，首先是電力業，它也逐步的在跨，他們很早就開始在試點，大概在十多年前就開始進行了。"],["陳委員瑩：所以他們算是已經繳費了？"],["彭部長啓明：已經用碳交易，就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度。"],["陳委員瑩：OK。再來，我另外要請教的是一個技術問題，就是收費公式，我們花了一點時間研究這個部分，收費公式實際上涉及層面是非常專業，而你們高碳洩漏的行業定義是要有碳排減量計畫的核定，就可以有0.2的調整數值，是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位就沒有0.2的調整，是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，而且你這個0.2，你還有二期、三期，0.4、0.6嘛，所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整，看起來是折扣越來越少，本席的質疑是這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎？還是你們這樣規劃，是有什麼特別的考量跟意義？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業，我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家，就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它排放強度高的這些產業，譬如說我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵、水泥業，因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間，所以我們有這樣一個轉型，調整一個0.2的係數。"],["陳委員瑩：我知道啊，但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6，意思就是一期打兩折；第二期打四折；第三期打六折，你折扣是越來越少……"],["彭部長啓明：越來越少，對。"],["陳委員瑩：當然我自己的思考，會不會是因為你們預期它母數之後是減少，所以才折扣越來越少，因此它不會好像繳的費用越來越高嘛，我是替你們這樣解釋，這樣設想，但是我不是很確定啦！是這樣子嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員說明一下，因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業，它免費的核配也會越來越少，越來越嚴。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我理解，我理解，但是同樣對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛！你們的給我的回復，只是因為國際這樣子訂，所以我就這樣訂，但是通常我們一般的邏輯如果要達到鼓勵的效果，我們說你先做這樣，我跟你打八折；之後你再做更好，我跟打你六折；你再做到很完美，我跟你打兩折。但只是國際這樣子我們就這樣子，你可不可以解釋給我聽，國際這樣子計算是為什麼？"],["蔡署長玲儀：就是這些產業他們一定要減碳，只是一開始的時候，我們希望它可以有比較多的資金用在它自己的減碳，但是未來它能夠受到免費的部分就會越來越少，所以它要趕快開始來做減碳。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這跟我的設想，希望母數到時候是降低的……"],["彭部長啓明：我們沒有這樣想，我們是覺得，先給它一個比較大的誘因以減得更多，然後減得更多完了之後，就慢慢地減少。"],["陳委員瑩：那你也可以維持啊！就是一直都打這樣的折扣，我只是拋出來，因為你們講得很沒有說服力，你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣，我們其實也可以有一些創舉，如果它對產業的減碳是好的，你看我們的施師一直在點頭，我看到了啊！所以下回「施師開講」或許可以針對這個部分來講一下，好不好？因為不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定要怎麼樣，如果我們有更好的，我們也可以走在國際的尖端，施師，我這樣講有沒有道理？謝謝。其實我也可以做一下陳師，好不好？","我跟你講，我唸音樂系的，要看懂這個，真的花了我很多時間，好嗎？再來，非高碳洩漏風險行業，也就是2.5萬公噸的調整，關於未來這2.5萬，剛剛前面是不是有講到可能也是會調整？"],["彭部長啓明：慢慢減。"],["陳委員瑩：就是慢慢減？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：但是我還有一個疑問，就是為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定，他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值？我為什麼這樣問，大家來做一下算術，很簡單，請部長算給我聽，我取一個平均值，這500家除完之後就是31百萬這個平均值，31百萬公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：28.5。"],["陳委員瑩：28.5百萬？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有，你算錯了，是2.5萬，不是2.5百萬。"],["彭部長啓明：OK！對！sorry！"],["陳委員瑩：你的數學不可以輸我音樂系的。","再來，請問2.5萬公噸占31百萬公噸是占多少？"],["彭部長啓明：很低！"],["陳委員瑩：很低是占多少？我算好了，我唸給你聽，2.5萬除以31百萬等於0.00008065，這是皮毛吧！我現在是套你們的公式去算，這就是皮毛啊！如果只是2.5萬，31百萬減掉2.5萬而已，業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣，還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量計畫，我看就不用了！那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的！還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬，你有沒有少寫一個字？我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我中午沒吃飯……"],["陳委員瑩：我也沒吃，不過我頭腦是清楚的。"],["彭部長啓明：我下次再跟你好好來算一次，好不好？"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛講的其實都沒有錯嘛！結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後，非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛！所以我才質疑說你們的2.5萬是不是2.5百萬？是不是寫錯了？如果沒有的話，那就是沒有感覺啊！你這樣有什麼鼓勵的性質在裡面？我就先提出這樣的……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，那個是155百萬除以500事實上不是31百萬噸，大概是310萬噸。"],["陳委員瑩：310萬噸，好，那減掉2.5萬也是很少啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對……"],["陳委員瑩：好，你們大家好好算一算啦！如果它是一個非常明顯的數字，我們大家就不會愣在這兒，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。非常抱歉，因為今天時間真的非常的久，下次再來立法院這邊的話，如果超過吃飯時間，希望部會直接把便當發下去，讓各個同仁能夠吃飯，要不然從12點到現在已經超過兩個小時，真的非常辛苦！","接下來請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天的會議詢答全部結束。委員賴惠員、葉元之委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴惠員書面質詢：","一、據新聞報導指出目前臺灣炭費收費為300元，但各界立場皆有不同層面的影響及聲音，又於本次業報內容中未看見整體淨零炭排，短期及中期目標規劃，身為民代無從檢視政府是否按時達成目標。爰試問除2050淨零炭排外，短期、中期目標為何，而目前炭費收費300元是否有可能達成2050淨零炭排之目標。","二、炭費之收費制定需照減碳成效進行滾動式調整，惟氣候變遷因應法28條第1項及第3項，碳費之徵收費率，由中央主管機關所設之費率審議會審議，送由中央主管機關核定公告，並定期檢討之。其條文內容未明訂定期檢討之時程，爰請環境部研議定期檢討時程為何，依目前整體炭排狀況，需多久檢討一次，並於一個月內與本席報告。","三、目前炭費收費為專款專用，並有固定比例用於減碳輔導，惟畜牧業炭排量佔全球炭排量之18%比全球運輸業碳排放量還高，因此畜牧業也需積極進行減碳工作。爰請環境部會同農業部，參考國外案例，如：美國會讓牛吃含有少量紅海藻的飼料，減少牛打嗝排放甲烷，或養豬大國丹麥，鼓勵沼氣再利用為電力、熱能的生產及作為運輸燃料等用途，讓豬糞變為可持續循環利用的資源，並將一定比例之炭費用於畜牧業減碳輔導，於三個月內與本席報告。"],["委員葉元之書面質詢：","主旨：隨著2050淨零碳排目標推進，坊間永續課程與證照滿天飛五花八門，質量參差不齊，導致民怨叢生，有志投入相關產業與永續工作的青年無所適從。請環境部說明並評估該如何規範，以助有志從事節能、減碳、永續管理相關產業者與企業，建立正確的自我碳盤查及減量能力。","說明：","最近企業對ESG綠領人才需求日益增加，可以說是需求若渴，人力銀行幾百個職缺招募「永續管理師」、「淨零碳規劃管理師」、「低碳規劃師」等工作，加上金管會要求上市櫃公司都要準備永續報告書。然而，這種對人才的高度需求，市場上出現大量的永續課程和證照，質量參差不齊，或有無經驗者開課、不合理收費的情況。甚至有學者批評，永續低碳的認證如同詐騙或不實廣告！","亂象叢生也導致很多有志於永續工作的求職者或進修者，抱怨政府對課程內容、師資都無規範，年輕朋友想搞清楚到底念哪個課程、取得哪個證照對求職或加薪有幫助，卻都是一頭霧水。加上這些標榜淨零、碳權的大量課程，費用從幾千元到數萬元不等，媒體也曾揭露有民眾砸下高昂學費，卻因該機構未取得國際組織認證，只拿到一張無用證書，只是一張上課證。或是抱怨拿到的證照效用大不大。","質詢事項：","1.環境部如何協助真的有志投入碳盤查或永續工作的這些青年，獲得最新、最正確的資訊？","2.環境部能不能扮演好帶頭角色，整合各部會，包括經濟部、金管會，建構跨部會平台，編出官方課綱，供民間開課單位依循？","3.就長期而言有無針對相關課程的內容、師資等進行規範的規劃？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","今天的會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（14時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}}