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496.488, \"end\": 499.99, \"text\": \"好了,我想除了資料,還有一個很重要的是什麼?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 496.488, \"end\": 496.608, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 496.608, \"end\": 496.808, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 496.808, \"end\": 496.928, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 496.928, \"end\": 497.629, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 497.629, \"end\": 497.769, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 497.769, \"end\": 498.029, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 498.029, \"end\": 498.509, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 498.509, \"end\": 498.609, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 498.609, \"end\": 498.75, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 498.75, \"end\": 498.93, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 498.93, \"end\": 499.11, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 499.11, \"end\": 499.27, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 499.27, \"end\": 499.33, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 499.33, \"end\": 499.37, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 499.37, \"end\": 499.99, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 499.99, \"end\": 502.012, \"text\": \"資金吶!\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 499.99, \"end\": 502.012, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"吶\"}, {\"word\": \"!\"}]}, {\"start\": 502.012, \"end\": 511.878, \"text\": \"這已經不是文化韌性的問題,是國家韌性,經濟韌性的問題。 請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案,預算規模是多少嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 502.012, \"end\": 502.272, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 502.272, \"end\": 502.392, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 502.392, \"end\": 502.532, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 502.532, \"end\": 502.672, \"score\": 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506.634, \"end\": 506.754, \"score\": 0.639}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 506.754, \"end\": 507.095, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 507.095, \"end\": 507.175, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 507.175, \"end\": 507.635, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 507.635, \"end\": 507.855, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 507.855, \"end\": 508.035, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 508.035, \"end\": 508.235, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 508.235, \"end\": 508.476, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 508.476, \"end\": 508.616, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 508.616, \"end\": 508.756, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 508.756, \"end\": 509.056, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 509.056, \"end\": 509.216, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 509.216, \"end\": 509.776, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 509.776, \"end\": 510.197, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 510.197, \"end\": 510.337, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 510.337, \"end\": 511.057, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 511.057, \"end\": 511.417, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"模\", \"start\": 511.417, \"end\": 511.598, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 511.598, \"end\": 511.718, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 511.718, \"end\": 511.858, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 511.858, \"end\": 511.878, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 513.564, \"end\": 539.056, \"text\": \"我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 513.564, \"end\": 514.124, \"score\": 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\"end\": 946.584, \"score\": 0.585}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:29,673 --> 00:00:56,630\n好,謝謝主席,有請行政院卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢各位好,您辛苦了您比較辛苦,大家都辛苦我習慣我們副院長、主席也很辛苦,大家都非常辛苦科技不分藍綠,所有的人也都非常關注科技的發展今年9月的時候\n\n2\n00:00:57,728 --> 00:01:17,021\n抱歉,行政院召開經濟發展委員會,您提出了主權AI,因為不分藍綠白,所以我把您放在第一頁。我是深感認同,本席深感認同,但想請教一下院長,您認為要實現主權AI政府的首要任務到底是什麼?\n\n3\n00:01:18,575 --> 00:01:19,936\n所以要發展主權AI不外乎就是資料\n\n4\n00:01:43,646 --> 00:01:57,277\n我們的政府在112年4月正式啟動臺德可信任深層式AI對話語情的計畫。想請問一下院長您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料政府部門應該帶頭向臺德計畫開放資料作為訓練文本使用?\n\n5\n00:02:04,261 --> 00:02:29,456\n您是否認同?你剛剛已經提了啊,你的檔案是資料啊?沒有台灣元素的資料怎麼會有台灣的主權AI?是不是願意開放資料帶頭給他們嘛?你沒有資料訓練怎麼會有本土元素呢?剛開始開始我們會採取比較保守一點的,讓他建立一個基本的能力之後,再有對更多的資訊進來,在現在還在這個過程。\n\n6\n00:02:31,755 --> 00:03:01,227\n主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了我直接問院長您知道目前各部會加總起來向台德開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎?我們在政府開放資料的部分只要不牽涉到人權的議題很好嘛都盡量開放嘛帶頭開放嘛我們直接幫你查了台德官網目前光是列席的六個部會裡面就有兩個是沒有列在上面向台德開放資料的\n\n7\n00:03:01,627 --> 00:03:14,285\n分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院當然故宮最近有跟wikipedia有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分但是為什麼沒有列在台德資料合作單位上面呢?\n\n8\n00:03:14,285 --> 00:03:17,469\n台德作為請全國之力開發的這個模型\n\n9\n00:03:18,010 --> 00:03:45,271\n院長一聲下令要做主權AI,這個資料沒有提供完整的話,我們怎麼有辦法主權AI呢?至少應該要由政府部會帶頭,全面向台德,還有很多其他像民間,像台灣LLM也做得很好,去提供這些資料,本地的資料,我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。院長,為什麼我們這麼急切?同樣是亞洲國家,面臨語料相對稀少的困境,大家都是一樣的。\n\n10\n00:03:46,112 --> 00:04:04,320\n日本是請全國智力要開發的這個模型,參數量要達到1000億。這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的。結果我們台德開發今年4月市租的是80億,頂多還沒有辦法開放的是130億。我們到底要怎麼去跟人家\n\n11\n00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:20,702\n一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢?政府曾經多次強調,台德的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權。但是呢,其實台德要取得這些語料,\n\n12\n00:04:21,403 --> 00:04:44,082\n不外乎兩種方式,第一種,我們訂定一個參數的目標,依照所需的資料量,逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料。第二個,參考鄰國日本修正著作權法,讓大於人模型可以大以訓練。請教院長,台德或者我們台灣在開發主權AI資料取得上,到底要採用哪一種方式?\n\n13\n00:04:45,066 --> 00:04:46,307\n你的資料量如果不夠的話,你模型複雜起來嗎?\n\n14\n00:05:00,130 --> 00:05:24,833\n模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配啦所以到底有沒有關嘛你不要在這裡欸那個沒有關真的是沒有關所以模型的複雜度所以我就算很少的資料我也可以讓參數很複雜你確定喔要確喔當然你複雜的模型需要用更多的資料沒有關係我們到底要採用哪一種方式啊我這題其實是要問院長啦院長我們到底是要編預算還是要開放還是要修法\n\n15\n00:05:25,558 --> 00:05:45,326\n我還是跟委員承認首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足我們在硬體的製造上面是可以領先的但是軟體的不足所以我們在急步的追趕那急步追趕總要有一個開始那現在是正在開始的過程當中我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後我認為第一個要先入門\n\n16\n00:05:46,710 --> 00:05:48,331\n三、10月11日上午9時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n17\n00:06:08,885 --> 00:06:26,190\n大大的不足我承認大大的不足但是我說這是一個起步報告委員我們在台德的應用推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部分希望委員能夠支持那是有編資料購買的預算嗎有如果需要授權的部分我們會編的多少\n\n18\n00:06:29,423 --> 00:06:50,601\n總數我告訴你了,主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦,這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算,我們來看一下,接下來我相信就說起步嘛,我覺得我們說不要講說台灣世界中心的時候就喊很大聲啦,然後呢我們要編預算要做事的時候就說我們還在起步,但是行政院還是有做事,我們也是予以鼓勵啦,你們有說要提出什麼?\n\n19\n00:06:51,221 --> 00:07:02,370\n促進資料創新利用發展條例請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權修改一些相關的法令跟AI訓練使用有沒有\n\n20\n00:07:05,388 --> 00:07:26,823\n我們現在正在進行當中,我們會朝這個方向努力。院長,我們上一次總質詢部部有AI是您喊出來的,結果我們今天發現部部正AI,要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲,結果要規劃計畫的時候每個人都說這是誰的問題誰的問題,我們等一下來看,如果我們沒有完整的資料,我們的語言模型就是營養不良。\n\n21\n00:07:27,943 --> 00:07:29,184\n這會牽涉到什麼?\n\n22\n00:07:29,184 --> 00:07:42,228\n韌性的問題,這是文化的韌性。我希望部長、院長能夠給一個期限,明確的期限。何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題?\n\n23\n00:07:42,228 --> 00:07:46,209\n給一個期限。你說要追趕,我們總要有期限嘛。追趕100年也是不追趕啊。\n\n24\n00:07:47,265 --> 00:08:15,067\n跟委員說明我覺得一步來我們從首長副首長到三級機關的首長我們都訓練了他們進入到AI情境的這個過程我們的人種都他們要訓練我同意但是院長的方針要出來我能不能給一個6個月的期限在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案一定會有進展但進展的程度是不是成如委員所需要所期待的我們來努力\n\n25\n00:08:16,488 --> 00:08:19,990\n好了,我想除了資料,還有一個很重要的是什麼?\n\n26\n00:08:19,990 --> 00:08:22,012\n資金吶!\n\n27\n00:08:22,012 --> 00:08:31,878\n這已經不是文化韌性的問題,是國家韌性,經濟韌性的問題。請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案,預算規模是多少嗎?\n\n28\n00:08:33,564 --> 00:08:59,056\n我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?\n\n29\n00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:06,307\n有人預估,2027年要到千億美元,2025、26可能要到百億美元。日本是我們的12倍,你覺得夠不夠啊?\n\n30\n00:09:07,571 --> 00:09:33,453\n我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列當中如果有任何的突發或是需求國家財政允許我們當然有計畫是可以再調整但目前我們只能做這樣的編列現在確實AI突發的狀況很多所以我們現在預算總預算還有修改的機會希望院長可以好好修改一下那個主委您稍等今天我要跟院長好好交流一下\n\n31\n00:09:34,193 --> 00:10:01,394\n您的部會提出來的相關的數字您自己要非常的清楚我們要有一個算力的預估規劃我們才能夠抓出預算結果呢我們光看算力先從100PF到116PF然後說2027年要280要480我告訴院長啊2027年如果是480PF連2024年的日本都趕不上你還說要什麼亞洲前三再來我們看資金啦齁\n\n32\n00:10:02,094 --> 00:10:26,094\n我們的資金預算呢一遍再遍我老實講啊這一本36頁1331的預算主委我直接在質詢的時候他跟我說沒有看過然後呢他還說行政院的這個這個方案僅供參考指示方案我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎如果公案出10年3105號什麼都不用做\n\n33\n00:10:26,554 --> 00:10:42,986\n報告委員我不是說僅供參考,因為方案之後要有計劃,我們要細究的時候你說只是方案啊?不是不是,我們編預算一定有計劃。根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們,開出來我們就要付錢嗎?\n\n34\n00:10:44,537 --> 00:11:00,005\n我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。你到現在還是在講空話啊,你知道這是空的嗎?你是不是又要再追加?你追加可以啊,講清楚啊。方案是政府的願景,我們未來推動的方向。你已經寫出來是多少錢,就是多少錢。\n\n35\n00:11:01,021 --> 00:11:18,650\n我跟院長交流一下我理解您多次公開表示對總預算被退回表示遺憾但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案\n\n36\n00:11:19,502 --> 00:11:30,666\n我也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權。光是國科會主委對外談論114年精創計畫。結果呢?我們這個剛剛都看過了。他先講了200億。再來呢?上週國科會的業務報告寫183億。今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億。結果呢?我們要資料出來是多少?90.49是國科會的。我先講,你讓我講清楚。\n\n37\n00:11:48,223 --> 00:11:52,945\n我們覺得非常離譜,因為為什麼你們會有各種數字不同?\n\n38\n00:11:53,547 --> 00:12:19,334\n因為你們所有的計畫名稱都不一樣我直接列出來7個部會14個不同的名稱我現在要讓院長知道你又是叫晶片驅動你又是叫創新驅動你又是晶片創新又是挑戰計畫你自己都列不出來讓我們立法院怎麼監督啊我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的他名稱可能會調整但是都在我們的方案裡面\n\n39\n00:12:20,650 --> 00:12:43,099\n10票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事?預算法第39條分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少?你都要列得很清楚啊!我們計畫書裡面都會有列那今年的預算155億,明年是183億因為我目標200億但是在行政院審查\n\n40\n00:12:43,459 --> 00:12:57,911\n你現在要變回183啊!你剛剛說155啊!那是今年的預算啊!明年的變成是183啊!所以183就是183,又不會再變了?不會變了。你們裡面都找出來,等一下,那院長我要告訴你,這183億裡面是7個部會的預算。\n\n41\n00:13:01,540 --> 00:13:27,477\n為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢?為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢?那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算換進去啊?因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。好嘛,你看嘛,你到底是國科會還是國發會,你們到底誰講什麼啊?國科會編列科技預算。國科會編列科技預算,那成效是不是應該要國科會來承擔啊?各部會一起承擔。\n\n42\n00:13:30,722 --> 00:13:31,384\n院長你聽到了齁?\n\n43\n00:13:34,309 --> 00:13:38,290\n所以院長您的角色很重要我要先講從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後\n\n44\n00:14:03,695 --> 00:14:19,775\n有國科會、數法部、經濟部、國發會。結果呢,我們光要講結果的時候,4年又要推動20萬名,算力要提升全球前三。結果呢,這個,大家互相推諉啊,講到AI人人都要分一點預算,我們剛剛看到了7個部會啊,\n\n45\n00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:34,348\n結果呢,講到KPI的時候每個人都說是別人的責任,今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席一個,給所有全國人民一個明確的答案。究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的?主導兼主責啊?你預算是預算?\n\n46\n00:14:40,857 --> 00:14:51,845\n你跟他講的也有經濟部也有其他的部會都有但是整個科技預算科技預算的整合就是在國科會\n\n47\n00:14:53,260 --> 00:15:08,173\n所以我們會協助所有的部會。那你覺得這樣子分錢的是一個結果大家都落跑?這是對的預算分配的方法嗎?行政院的組織就是國防部主委本身是政務委員。那我丟一題給院長,你就會發現一個很微妙的地方。我們問了所有的部會,4年20萬AA人才。\n\n48\n00:15:14,739 --> 00:15:42,908\n到底明年要培育出多少AI人才每一個部會你剛剛講了嘛四個部會要共同做KPI嘛要有結果嘛結果明年要多少人他有國外的進來的學生的人才有國內培養這整個湊起來是12萬打包票院長你得到答案啦每一個人都在逃啦不要步步有AI結果是步步蹭AI啦要院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了要發揮領導統一真正做出主權AI我當然負最後的責任\n\n49\n00:15:46,403 --> 00:15:46,584\n謝謝葛委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29673\t56630\t好,謝謝主席,有請行政院卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢各位好,您辛苦了您比較辛苦,大家都辛苦我習慣我們副院長、主席也很辛苦,大家都非常辛苦科技不分藍綠,所有的人也都非常關注科技的發展今年9月的時候\n57728\t77021\t抱歉,行政院召開經濟發展委員會,您提出了主權AI,因為不分藍綠白,所以我把您放在第一頁。我是深感認同,本席深感認同,但想請教一下院長,您認為要實現主權AI政府的首要任務到底是什麼?\n78575\t79936\t所以要發展主權AI不外乎就是資料\n103646\t117277\t我們的政府在112年4月正式啟動臺德可信任深層式AI對話語情的計畫。 想請問一下院長您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料政府部門應該帶頭向臺德計畫開放資料作為訓練文本使用?\n124261\t149456\t您是否認同?你剛剛已經提了啊,你的檔案是資料啊?沒有台灣元素的資料怎麼會有台灣的主權AI?是不是願意開放資料帶頭給他們嘛?你沒有資料訓練怎麼會有本土元素呢?剛開始開始我們會採取比較保守一點的,讓他建立一個基本的能力之後,再有對更多的資訊進來,在現在還在這個過程。\n151755\t181227\t主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了我直接問院長您知道目前各部會加總起來向台德開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎?我們在政府開放資料的部分只要不牽涉到人權的議題很好嘛 都盡量開放嘛 帶頭開放嘛我們直接幫你查了台德官網目前光是列席的六個部會裡面就有兩個是沒有列在上面向台德開放資料的\n181627\t194285\t分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院當然故宮最近有跟wikipedia有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分但是為什麼沒有列在台德資料合作單位上面呢?\n194285\t197469\t台德作為請全國之力開發的這個模型\n198010\t225271\t院長一聲下令要做主權AI,這個資料沒有提供完整的話,我們怎麼有辦法主權AI呢?至少應該要由政府部會帶頭,全面向台德,還有很多其他像民間,像台灣LLM也做得很好,去提供這些資料,本地的資料,我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。院長,為什麼我們這麼急切?同樣是亞洲國家,面臨語料相對稀少的困境,大家都是一樣的。\n226112\t244320\t日本是請全國智力要開發的這個模型,參數量要達到1000億。 這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的。 結果我們台德開發今年4月市租的是80億,頂多還沒有辦法開放的是130億。 我們到底要怎麼去跟人家\n245160\t260702\t一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢?政府曾經多次強調, 台德的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權。 但是呢,其實台德要取得這些語料,\n261403\t284082\t不外乎兩種方式,第一種,我們訂定一個參數的目標,依照所需的資料量,逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料。 第二個,參考鄰國日本修正著作權法,讓大於人模型可以大以訓練。 請教院長,台德或者我們台灣在開發主權AI資料取得上,到底要採用哪一種方式?\n285066\t286307\t你的資料量如果不夠的話,你模型複雜起來嗎?\n300130\t324833\t模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配啦所以到底有沒有關嘛你不要在這裡欸那個沒有關真的是沒有關所以模型的複雜度所以我就算很少的資料我也可以讓參數很複雜你確定喔要確喔當然你複雜的模型需要用更多的資料沒有關係我們到底要採用哪一種方式啊我這題其實是要問院長啦院長我們到底是要編預算還是要開放還是要修法\n325558\t345326\t我還是跟委員承認首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足我們在硬體的製造上面是可以領先的但是軟體的不足所以我們在急步的追趕那急步追趕總要有一個開始那現在是正在開始的過程當中我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後我認為第一個要先入門\n346710\t348331\t三、10月11日上午9時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n368885\t386190\t大大的不足我承認大大的不足但是我說這是一個起步報告委員我們在台德的應用推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部分希望委員能夠支持那是有編資料購買的預算嗎有如果需要授權的部分我們會編的多少\n389423\t410601\t總數我告訴你了,主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦,這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算,我們來看一下,接下來我相信就說起步嘛,我覺得我們說不要講說台灣世界中心的時候就喊很大聲啦,然後呢我們要編預算要做事的時候就說我們還在起步,但是行政院還是有做事,我們也是予以鼓勵啦,你們有說要提出什麼?\n411221\t422370\t促進資料創新利用發展條例請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權修改一些相關的法令跟AI訓練使用有沒有\n425388\t446823\t我們現在正在進行當中,我們會朝這個方向努力。院長,我們上一次總質詢部部有AI是您喊出來的,結果我們今天發現部部正AI,要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲,結果要規劃計畫的時候每個人都說這是誰的問題誰的問題,我們等一下來看,如果我們沒有完整的資料,我們的語言模型就是營養不良。\n447943\t449184\t這會牽涉到什麼?\n449184\t462228\t韌性的問題,這是文化的韌性。 我希望部長、院長能夠給一個期限,明確的期限。 何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題?\n462228\t466209\t給一個期限。 你說要追趕,我們總要有期限嘛。 追趕100年也是不追趕啊。\n467265\t495067\t跟委員說明我覺得一步來我們從首長副首長到三級機關的首長我們都訓練了他們進入到AI情境的這個過程我們的人種都他們要訓練我同意但是院長的方針要出來我能不能給一個6個月的期限在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案一定會有進展但進展的程度是不是成如委員所需要所期待的我們來努力\n496488\t499990\t好了,我想除了資料,還有一個很重要的是什麼?\n499990\t502012\t資金吶!\n502012\t511878\t這已經不是文化韌性的問題,是國家韌性,經濟韌性的問題。 請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案,預算規模是多少嗎?\n513564\t539056\t我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?\n539716\t546307\t有人預估,2027年要到千億美元,2025、26可能要到百億美元。 日本是我們的12倍,你覺得夠不夠啊?\n547571\t573453\t我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列當中如果有任何的突發或是需求國家財政允許我們當然有計畫是可以再調整但目前我們只能做這樣的編列現在確實AI突發的狀況很多所以我們現在預算總預算還有修改的機會希望院長可以好好修改一下那個主委您稍等今天我要跟院長好好交流一下\n574193\t601394\t您的部會提出來的相關的數字您自己要非常的清楚我們要有一個算力的預估規劃我們才能夠抓出預算結果呢我們光看算力先從100PF到116PF然後說2027年要280要480我告訴院長啊2027年如果是480PF連2024年的日本都趕不上你還說要什麼亞洲前三再來我們看資金啦齁\n602094\t626094\t我們的資金預算呢一遍再遍我老實講啊這一本36頁1331的預算主委我直接在質詢的時候他跟我說沒有看過然後呢他還說行政院的這個這個方案僅供參考指示方案我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎如果公案出10年3105號什麼都不用做\n626554\t642986\t報告委員我不是說僅供參考,因為方案之後要有計劃,我們要細究的時候你說只是方案啊?不是不是,我們編預算一定有計劃。根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們,開出來我們就要付錢嗎?\n644537\t660005\t我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。你到現在還是在講空話啊,你知道這是空的嗎?你是不是又要再追加?你追加可以啊,講清楚啊。方案是政府的願景,我們未來推動的方向。你已經寫出來是多少錢,就是多少錢。\n661021\t678650\t我跟院長交流一下我理解您多次公開表示對總預算被退回表示遺憾但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案\n679502\t690666\t我也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權。光是國科會主委對外談論114年精創計畫。結果呢?我們這個剛剛都看過了。他先講了200億。再來呢?上週國科會的業務報告寫183億。今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億。結果呢?我們要資料出來是多少?90.49是國科會的。我先講,你讓我講清楚。\n708223\t712945\t我們覺得非常離譜,因為為什麼你們會有各種數字不同?\n713547\t739334\t因為你們所有的計畫名稱都不一樣我直接列出來7個部會14個不同的名稱我現在要讓院長知道你又是叫晶片驅動你又是叫創新驅動你又是晶片創新又是挑戰計畫你自己都列不出來讓我們立法院怎麼監督啊我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的他名稱可能會調整但是都在我們的方案裡面\n740650\t763099\t10票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事?預算法第39條分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少?你都要列得很清楚啊!我們計畫書裡面都會有列那今年的預算155億,明年是183億因為我目標200億但是在行政院審查\n763459\t777911\t你現在要變回183啊!你剛剛說155啊!那是今年的預算啊!明年的變成是183啊!所以183就是183,又不會再變了?不會變了。你們裡面都找出來,等一下,那院長我要告訴你,這183億裡面是7個部會的預算。\n781540\t807477\t為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢?為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢?那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算換進去啊?因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。好嘛,你看嘛,你到底是國科會還是國發會,你們到底誰講什麼啊?國科會編列科技預算。國科會編列科技預算,那成效是不是應該要國科會來承擔啊?各部會一起承擔。\n810722\t811384\t院長你聽到了齁?\n814309\t818290\t所以院長您的角色很重要我要先講從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後\n843695\t859775\t有國科會、數法部、經濟部、國發會。 結果呢,我們光要講結果的時候,4年又要推動20萬名, 算力要提升全球前三。 結果呢,這個,大家互相推諉啊,講到AI人人都要分一點預算,我們剛剛看到了7個部會啊,\n861036\t874348\t結果呢,講到KPI的時候每個人都說是別人的責任,今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席一個,給所有全國人民一個明確的答案。究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的?主導兼主責啊?你預算是預算?\n880857\t891845\t你跟他講的也有經濟部也有其他的部會都有 但是整個科技預算 科技預算的整合就是在國科會\n893260\t908173\t所以我們會協助所有的部會。那你覺得這樣子分錢的是一個結果大家都落跑?這是對的預算分配的方法嗎?行政院的組織就是國防部主委本身是政務委員。那我丟一題給院長,你就會發現一個很微妙的地方。我們問了所有的部會,4年20萬AA人才。\n914739\t942908\t到底明年要培育出多少AI人才每一個部會你剛剛講了嘛四個部會要共同做KPI嘛要有結果嘛結果明年要多少人他有國外的進來的學生的人才有國內培養這整個湊起來是12萬打包票院長你得到答案啦每一個人都在逃啦不要步步有AI結果是步步蹭AI啦要院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了要發揮領導統一真正做出主權AI我當然負最後的責任\n946403\t946584\t謝謝葛委員\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,有請行政院卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢各位好,您辛苦了您比較辛苦,大家都辛苦我習慣我們副院長、主席也很辛苦,大家都非常辛苦科技不分藍綠,所有的人也都非常關注科技的發展今年9月的時候\n抱歉,行政院召開經濟發展委員會,您提出了主權AI,因為不分藍綠白,所以我把您放在第一頁。我是深感認同,本席深感認同,但想請教一下院長,您認為要實現主權AI政府的首要任務到底是什麼?\n所以要發展主權AI不外乎就是資料\n我們的政府在112年4月正式啟動臺德可信任深層式AI對話語情的計畫。 想請問一下院長您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料政府部門應該帶頭向臺德計畫開放資料作為訓練文本使用?\n您是否認同?你剛剛已經提了啊,你的檔案是資料啊?沒有台灣元素的資料怎麼會有台灣的主權AI?是不是願意開放資料帶頭給他們嘛?你沒有資料訓練怎麼會有本土元素呢?剛開始開始我們會採取比較保守一點的,讓他建立一個基本的能力之後,再有對更多的資訊進來,在現在還在這個過程。\n主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了我直接問院長您知道目前各部會加總起來向台德開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎?我們在政府開放資料的部分只要不牽涉到人權的議題很好嘛 都盡量開放嘛 帶頭開放嘛我們直接幫你查了台德官網目前光是列席的六個部會裡面就有兩個是沒有列在上面向台德開放資料的\n分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院當然故宮最近有跟wikipedia有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分但是為什麼沒有列在台德資料合作單位上面呢?\n台德作為請全國之力開發的這個模型\n院長一聲下令要做主權AI,這個資料沒有提供完整的話,我們怎麼有辦法主權AI呢?至少應該要由政府部會帶頭,全面向台德,還有很多其他像民間,像台灣LLM也做得很好,去提供這些資料,本地的資料,我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。院長,為什麼我們這麼急切?同樣是亞洲國家,面臨語料相對稀少的困境,大家都是一樣的。\n日本是請全國智力要開發的這個模型,參數量要達到1000億。 這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的。 結果我們台德開發今年4月市租的是80億,頂多還沒有辦法開放的是130億。 我們到底要怎麼去跟人家\n一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢?政府曾經多次強調, 台德的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權。 但是呢,其實台德要取得這些語料,\n不外乎兩種方式,第一種,我們訂定一個參數的目標,依照所需的資料量,逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料。 第二個,參考鄰國日本修正著作權法,讓大於人模型可以大以訓練。 請教院長,台德或者我們台灣在開發主權AI資料取得上,到底要採用哪一種方式?\n你的資料量如果不夠的話,你模型複雜起來嗎?\n模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配啦所以到底有沒有關嘛你不要在這裡欸那個沒有關真的是沒有關所以模型的複雜度所以我就算很少的資料我也可以讓參數很複雜你確定喔要確喔當然你複雜的模型需要用更多的資料沒有關係我們到底要採用哪一種方式啊我這題其實是要問院長啦院長我們到底是要編預算還是要開放還是要修法\n我還是跟委員承認首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足我們在硬體的製造上面是可以領先的但是軟體的不足所以我們在急步的追趕那急步追趕總要有一個開始那現在是正在開始的過程當中我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後我認為第一個要先入門\n三、10月11日上午9時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n大大的不足我承認大大的不足但是我說這是一個起步報告委員我們在台德的應用推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部分希望委員能夠支持那是有編資料購買的預算嗎有如果需要授權的部分我們會編的多少\n總數我告訴你了,主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦,這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算,我們來看一下,接下來我相信就說起步嘛,我覺得我們說不要講說台灣世界中心的時候就喊很大聲啦,然後呢我們要編預算要做事的時候就說我們還在起步,但是行政院還是有做事,我們也是予以鼓勵啦,你們有說要提出什麼?\n促進資料創新利用發展條例請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權修改一些相關的法令跟AI訓練使用有沒有\n我們現在正在進行當中,我們會朝這個方向努力。院長,我們上一次總質詢部部有AI是您喊出來的,結果我們今天發現部部正AI,要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲,結果要規劃計畫的時候每個人都說這是誰的問題誰的問題,我們等一下來看,如果我們沒有完整的資料,我們的語言模型就是營養不良。\n這會牽涉到什麼?\n韌性的問題,這是文化的韌性。 我希望部長、院長能夠給一個期限,明確的期限。 何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題?\n給一個期限。 你說要追趕,我們總要有期限嘛。 追趕100年也是不追趕啊。\n跟委員說明我覺得一步來我們從首長副首長到三級機關的首長我們都訓練了他們進入到AI情境的這個過程我們的人種都他們要訓練我同意但是院長的方針要出來我能不能給一個6個月的期限在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案一定會有進展但進展的程度是不是成如委員所需要所期待的我們來努力\n好了,我想除了資料,還有一個很重要的是什麼?\n資金吶!\n這已經不是文化韌性的問題,是國家韌性,經濟韌性的問題。 請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案,預算規模是多少嗎?\n我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?\n有人預估,2027年要到千億美元,2025、26可能要到百億美元。 日本是我們的12倍,你覺得夠不夠啊?\n我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列當中如果有任何的突發或是需求國家財政允許我們當然有計畫是可以再調整但目前我們只能做這樣的編列現在確實AI突發的狀況很多所以我們現在預算總預算還有修改的機會希望院長可以好好修改一下那個主委您稍等今天我要跟院長好好交流一下\n您的部會提出來的相關的數字您自己要非常的清楚我們要有一個算力的預估規劃我們才能夠抓出預算結果呢我們光看算力先從100PF到116PF然後說2027年要280要480我告訴院長啊2027年如果是480PF連2024年的日本都趕不上你還說要什麼亞洲前三再來我們看資金啦齁\n我們的資金預算呢一遍再遍我老實講啊這一本36頁1331的預算主委我直接在質詢的時候他跟我說沒有看過然後呢他還說行政院的這個這個方案僅供參考指示方案我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎如果公案出10年3105號什麼都不用做\n報告委員我不是說僅供參考,因為方案之後要有計劃,我們要細究的時候你說只是方案啊?不是不是,我們編預算一定有計劃。根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們,開出來我們就要付錢嗎?\n我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。你到現在還是在講空話啊,你知道這是空的嗎?你是不是又要再追加?你追加可以啊,講清楚啊。方案是政府的願景,我們未來推動的方向。你已經寫出來是多少錢,就是多少錢。\n我跟院長交流一下我理解您多次公開表示對總預算被退回表示遺憾但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案\n我也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權。光是國科會主委對外談論114年精創計畫。結果呢?我們這個剛剛都看過了。他先講了200億。再來呢?上週國科會的業務報告寫183億。今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億。結果呢?我們要資料出來是多少?90.49是國科會的。我先講,你讓我講清楚。\n我們覺得非常離譜,因為為什麼你們會有各種數字不同?\n因為你們所有的計畫名稱都不一樣我直接列出來7個部會14個不同的名稱我現在要讓院長知道你又是叫晶片驅動你又是叫創新驅動你又是晶片創新又是挑戰計畫你自己都列不出來讓我們立法院怎麼監督啊我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的他名稱可能會調整但是都在我們的方案裡面\n10票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事?預算法第39條分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少?你都要列得很清楚啊!我們計畫書裡面都會有列那今年的預算155億,明年是183億因為我目標200億但是在行政院審查\n你現在要變回183啊!你剛剛說155啊!那是今年的預算啊!明年的變成是183啊!所以183就是183,又不會再變了?不會變了。你們裡面都找出來,等一下,那院長我要告訴你,這183億裡面是7個部會的預算。\n為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢?為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢?那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算換進去啊?因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。好嘛,你看嘛,你到底是國科會還是國發會,你們到底誰講什麼啊?國科會編列科技預算。國科會編列科技預算,那成效是不是應該要國科會來承擔啊?各部會一起承擔。\n院長你聽到了齁?\n所以院長您的角色很重要我要先講從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後\n有國科會、數法部、經濟部、國發會。 結果呢,我們光要講結果的時候,4年又要推動20萬名, 算力要提升全球前三。 結果呢,這個,大家互相推諉啊,講到AI人人都要分一點預算,我們剛剛看到了7個部會啊,\n結果呢,講到KPI的時候每個人都說是別人的責任,今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席一個,給所有全國人民一個明確的答案。究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的?主導兼主責啊?你預算是預算?\n你跟他講的也有經濟部也有其他的部會都有 但是整個科技預算 科技預算的整合就是在國科會\n所以我們會協助所有的部會。那你覺得這樣子分錢的是一個結果大家都落跑?這是對的預算分配的方法嗎?行政院的組織就是國防部主委本身是政務委員。那我丟一題給院長,你就會發現一個很微妙的地方。我們問了所有的部會,4年20萬AA人才。\n到底明年要培育出多少AI人才每一個部會你剛剛講了嘛四個部會要共同做KPI嘛要有結果嘛結果明年要多少人他有國外的進來的學生的人才有國內培養這整個湊起來是12萬打包票院長你得到答案啦每一個人都在逃啦不要步步有AI結果是步步蹭AI啦要院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了要發揮領導統一真正做出主權AI我當然負最後的責任\n謝謝葛委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:29.673 --> 00:56.630\n好,謝謝主席,有請行政院卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢各位好,您辛苦了您比較辛苦,大家都辛苦我習慣我們副院長、主席也很辛苦,大家都非常辛苦科技不分藍綠,所有的人也都非常關注科技的發展今年9月的時候\n\n00:57.728 --> 01:17.021\n抱歉,行政院召開經濟發展委員會,您提出了主權AI,因為不分藍綠白,所以我把您放在第一頁。我是深感認同,本席深感認同,但想請教一下院長,您認為要實現主權AI政府的首要任務到底是什麼?\n\n01:18.575 --> 01:19.936\n所以要發展主權AI不外乎就是資料\n\n01:43.646 --> 01:57.277\n我們的政府在112年4月正式啟動臺德可信任深層式AI對話語情的計畫。想請問一下院長您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料政府部門應該帶頭向臺德計畫開放資料作為訓練文本使用?\n\n02:04.261 --> 02:29.456\n您是否認同?你剛剛已經提了啊,你的檔案是資料啊?沒有台灣元素的資料怎麼會有台灣的主權AI?是不是願意開放資料帶頭給他們嘛?你沒有資料訓練怎麼會有本土元素呢?剛開始開始我們會採取比較保守一點的,讓他建立一個基本的能力之後,再有對更多的資訊進來,在現在還在這個過程。\n\n02:31.755 --> 03:01.227\n主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了我直接問院長您知道目前各部會加總起來向台德開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎?我們在政府開放資料的部分只要不牽涉到人權的議題很好嘛都盡量開放嘛帶頭開放嘛我們直接幫你查了台德官網目前光是列席的六個部會裡面就有兩個是沒有列在上面向台德開放資料的\n\n03:01.627 --> 03:14.285\n分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院當然故宮最近有跟wikipedia有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分但是為什麼沒有列在台德資料合作單位上面呢?\n\n03:14.285 --> 03:17.469\n台德作為請全國之力開發的這個模型\n\n03:18.010 --> 03:45.271\n院長一聲下令要做主權AI,這個資料沒有提供完整的話,我們怎麼有辦法主權AI呢?至少應該要由政府部會帶頭,全面向台德,還有很多其他像民間,像台灣LLM也做得很好,去提供這些資料,本地的資料,我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。院長,為什麼我們這麼急切?同樣是亞洲國家,面臨語料相對稀少的困境,大家都是一樣的。\n\n03:46.112 --> 04:04.320\n日本是請全國智力要開發的這個模型,參數量要達到1000億。這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的。結果我們台德開發今年4月市租的是80億,頂多還沒有辦法開放的是130億。我們到底要怎麼去跟人家\n\n04:05.160 --> 04:20.702\n一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢?政府曾經多次強調,台德的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權。但是呢,其實台德要取得這些語料,\n\n04:21.403 --> 04:44.082\n不外乎兩種方式,第一種,我們訂定一個參數的目標,依照所需的資料量,逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料。第二個,參考鄰國日本修正著作權法,讓大於人模型可以大以訓練。請教院長,台德或者我們台灣在開發主權AI資料取得上,到底要採用哪一種方式?\n\n04:45.066 --> 04:46.307\n你的資料量如果不夠的話,你模型複雜起來嗎?\n\n05:00.130 --> 05:24.833\n模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配啦所以到底有沒有關嘛你不要在這裡欸那個沒有關真的是沒有關所以模型的複雜度所以我就算很少的資料我也可以讓參數很複雜你確定喔要確喔當然你複雜的模型需要用更多的資料沒有關係我們到底要採用哪一種方式啊我這題其實是要問院長啦院長我們到底是要編預算還是要開放還是要修法\n\n05:25.558 --> 05:45.326\n我還是跟委員承認首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足我們在硬體的製造上面是可以領先的但是軟體的不足所以我們在急步的追趕那急步追趕總要有一個開始那現在是正在開始的過程當中我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後我認為第一個要先入門\n\n05:46.710 --> 05:48.331\n三、10月11日上午9時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n06:08.885 --> 06:26.190\n大大的不足我承認大大的不足但是我說這是一個起步報告委員我們在台德的應用推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部分希望委員能夠支持那是有編資料購買的預算嗎有如果需要授權的部分我們會編的多少\n\n06:29.423 --> 06:50.601\n總數我告訴你了,主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦,這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算,我們來看一下,接下來我相信就說起步嘛,我覺得我們說不要講說台灣世界中心的時候就喊很大聲啦,然後呢我們要編預算要做事的時候就說我們還在起步,但是行政院還是有做事,我們也是予以鼓勵啦,你們有說要提出什麼?\n\n06:51.221 --> 07:02.370\n促進資料創新利用發展條例請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權修改一些相關的法令跟AI訓練使用有沒有\n\n07:05.388 --> 07:26.823\n我們現在正在進行當中,我們會朝這個方向努力。院長,我們上一次總質詢部部有AI是您喊出來的,結果我們今天發現部部正AI,要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲,結果要規劃計畫的時候每個人都說這是誰的問題誰的問題,我們等一下來看,如果我們沒有完整的資料,我們的語言模型就是營養不良。\n\n07:27.943 --> 07:29.184\n這會牽涉到什麼?\n\n07:29.184 --> 07:42.228\n韌性的問題,這是文化的韌性。我希望部長、院長能夠給一個期限,明確的期限。何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題?\n\n07:42.228 --> 07:46.209\n給一個期限。你說要追趕,我們總要有期限嘛。追趕100年也是不追趕啊。\n\n07:47.265 --> 08:15.067\n跟委員說明我覺得一步來我們從首長副首長到三級機關的首長我們都訓練了他們進入到AI情境的這個過程我們的人種都他們要訓練我同意但是院長的方針要出來我能不能給一個6個月的期限在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案一定會有進展但進展的程度是不是成如委員所需要所期待的我們來努力\n\n08:16.488 --> 08:19.990\n好了,我想除了資料,還有一個很重要的是什麼?\n\n08:19.990 --> 08:22.012\n資金吶!\n\n08:22.012 --> 08:31.878\n這已經不是文化韌性的問題,是國家韌性,經濟韌性的問題。請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案,預算規模是多少嗎?\n\n08:33.564 --> 08:59.056\n我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?\n\n08:59.716 --> 09:06.307\n有人預估,2027年要到千億美元,2025、26可能要到百億美元。日本是我們的12倍,你覺得夠不夠啊?\n\n09:07.571 --> 09:33.453\n我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列當中如果有任何的突發或是需求國家財政允許我們當然有計畫是可以再調整但目前我們只能做這樣的編列現在確實AI突發的狀況很多所以我們現在預算總預算還有修改的機會希望院長可以好好修改一下那個主委您稍等今天我要跟院長好好交流一下\n\n09:34.193 --> 10:01.394\n您的部會提出來的相關的數字您自己要非常的清楚我們要有一個算力的預估規劃我們才能夠抓出預算結果呢我們光看算力先從100PF到116PF然後說2027年要280要480我告訴院長啊2027年如果是480PF連2024年的日本都趕不上你還說要什麼亞洲前三再來我們看資金啦齁\n\n10:02.094 --> 10:26.094\n我們的資金預算呢一遍再遍我老實講啊這一本36頁1331的預算主委我直接在質詢的時候他跟我說沒有看過然後呢他還說行政院的這個這個方案僅供參考指示方案我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎如果公案出10年3105號什麼都不用做\n\n10:26.554 --> 10:42.986\n報告委員我不是說僅供參考,因為方案之後要有計劃,我們要細究的時候你說只是方案啊?不是不是,我們編預算一定有計劃。根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們,開出來我們就要付錢嗎?\n\n10:44.537 --> 11:00.005\n我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。你到現在還是在講空話啊,你知道這是空的嗎?你是不是又要再追加?你追加可以啊,講清楚啊。方案是政府的願景,我們未來推動的方向。你已經寫出來是多少錢,就是多少錢。\n\n11:01.021 --> 11:18.650\n我跟院長交流一下我理解您多次公開表示對總預算被退回表示遺憾但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案\n\n11:19.502 --> 11:30.666\n我也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權。光是國科會主委對外談論114年精創計畫。結果呢?我們這個剛剛都看過了。他先講了200億。再來呢?上週國科會的業務報告寫183億。今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億。結果呢?我們要資料出來是多少?90.49是國科會的。我先講,你讓我講清楚。\n\n11:48.223 --> 11:52.945\n我們覺得非常離譜,因為為什麼你們會有各種數字不同?\n\n11:53.547 --> 12:19.334\n因為你們所有的計畫名稱都不一樣我直接列出來7個部會14個不同的名稱我現在要讓院長知道你又是叫晶片驅動你又是叫創新驅動你又是晶片創新又是挑戰計畫你自己都列不出來讓我們立法院怎麼監督啊我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的他名稱可能會調整但是都在我們的方案裡面\n\n12:20.650 --> 12:43.099\n10票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事?預算法第39條分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少?你都要列得很清楚啊!我們計畫書裡面都會有列那今年的預算155億,明年是183億因為我目標200億但是在行政院審查\n\n12:43.459 --> 12:57.911\n你現在要變回183啊!你剛剛說155啊!那是今年的預算啊!明年的變成是183啊!所以183就是183,又不會再變了?不會變了。你們裡面都找出來,等一下,那院長我要告訴你,這183億裡面是7個部會的預算。\n\n13:01.540 --> 13:27.477\n為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢?為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢?那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算換進去啊?因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。好嘛,你看嘛,你到底是國科會還是國發會,你們到底誰講什麼啊?國科會編列科技預算。國科會編列科技預算,那成效是不是應該要國科會來承擔啊?各部會一起承擔。\n\n13:30.722 --> 13:31.384\n院長你聽到了齁?\n\n13:34.309 --> 13:38.290\n所以院長您的角色很重要我要先講從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後\n\n14:03.695 --> 14:19.775\n有國科會、數法部、經濟部、國發會。結果呢,我們光要講結果的時候,4年又要推動20萬名,算力要提升全球前三。結果呢,這個,大家互相推諉啊,講到AI人人都要分一點預算,我們剛剛看到了7個部會啊,\n\n14:21.036 --> 14:34.348\n結果呢,講到KPI的時候每個人都說是別人的責任,今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席一個,給所有全國人民一個明確的答案。究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的?主導兼主責啊?你預算是預算?\n\n14:40.857 --> 14:51.845\n你跟他講的也有經濟部也有其他的部會都有但是整個科技預算科技預算的整合就是在國科會\n\n14:53.260 --> 15:08.173\n所以我們會協助所有的部會。那你覺得這樣子分錢的是一個結果大家都落跑?這是對的預算分配的方法嗎?行政院的組織就是國防部主委本身是政務委員。那我丟一題給院長,你就會發現一個很微妙的地方。我們問了所有的部會,4年20萬AA人才。\n\n15:14.739 --> 15:42.908\n到底明年要培育出多少AI人才每一個部會你剛剛講了嘛四個部會要共同做KPI嘛要有結果嘛結果明年要多少人他有國外的進來的學生的人才有國內培養這整個湊起來是12萬打包票院長你得到答案啦每一個人都在逃啦不要步步有AI結果是步步蹭AI啦要院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了要發揮領導統一真正做出主權AI我當然負最後的責任\n\n15:46.403 --> 15:46.584\n謝謝葛委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":29.673,"end":56.63,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請行政院卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢各位好,您辛苦了您比較辛苦,大家都辛苦我習慣我們副院長、主席也很辛苦,大家都非常辛苦科技不分藍綠,所有的人也都非常關注科技的發展今年9月的時候"},{"start":57.728,"end":77.021,"text":"抱歉,行政院召開經濟發展委員會,您提出了主權AI,因為不分藍綠白,所以我把您放在第一頁。我是深感認同,本席深感認同,但想請教一下院長,您認為要實現主權AI政府的首要任務到底是什麼?"},{"start":78.575,"end":79.936,"text":"所以要發展主權AI不外乎就是資料"},{"start":103.646,"end":117.277,"text":"我們的政府在112年4月正式啟動臺德可信任深層式AI對話語情的計畫。 想請問一下院長您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料政府部門應該帶頭向臺德計畫開放資料作為訓練文本使用?"},{"start":124.261,"end":149.456,"text":"您是否認同?你剛剛已經提了啊,你的檔案是資料啊?沒有台灣元素的資料怎麼會有台灣的主權AI?是不是願意開放資料帶頭給他們嘛?你沒有資料訓練怎麼會有本土元素呢?剛開始開始我們會採取比較保守一點的,讓他建立一個基本的能力之後,再有對更多的資訊進來,在現在還在這個過程。"},{"start":151.755,"end":181.227,"text":"主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了我直接問院長您知道目前各部會加總起來向台德開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎?我們在政府開放資料的部分只要不牽涉到人權的議題很好嘛 都盡量開放嘛 帶頭開放嘛我們直接幫你查了台德官網目前光是列席的六個部會裡面就有兩個是沒有列在上面向台德開放資料的"},{"start":181.627,"end":194.285,"text":"分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院當然故宮最近有跟wikipedia有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分但是為什麼沒有列在台德資料合作單位上面呢?"},{"start":194.285,"end":197.469,"text":"台德作為請全國之力開發的這個模型"},{"start":198.01,"end":225.271,"text":"院長一聲下令要做主權AI,這個資料沒有提供完整的話,我們怎麼有辦法主權AI呢?至少應該要由政府部會帶頭,全面向台德,還有很多其他像民間,像台灣LLM也做得很好,去提供這些資料,本地的資料,我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。院長,為什麼我們這麼急切?同樣是亞洲國家,面臨語料相對稀少的困境,大家都是一樣的。"},{"start":226.112,"end":244.32,"text":"日本是請全國智力要開發的這個模型,參數量要達到1000億。 這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的。 結果我們台德開發今年4月市租的是80億,頂多還沒有辦法開放的是130億。 我們到底要怎麼去跟人家"},{"start":245.16,"end":260.702,"text":"一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢?政府曾經多次強調, 台德的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權。 但是呢,其實台德要取得這些語料,"},{"start":261.403,"end":284.082,"text":"不外乎兩種方式,第一種,我們訂定一個參數的目標,依照所需的資料量,逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料。 第二個,參考鄰國日本修正著作權法,讓大於人模型可以大以訓練。 請教院長,台德或者我們台灣在開發主權AI資料取得上,到底要採用哪一種方式?"},{"start":285.066,"end":286.307,"text":"你的資料量如果不夠的話,你模型複雜起來嗎?"},{"start":300.13,"end":324.833,"text":"模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配啦所以到底有沒有關嘛你不要在這裡欸那個沒有關真的是沒有關所以模型的複雜度所以我就算很少的資料我也可以讓參數很複雜你確定喔要確喔當然你複雜的模型需要用更多的資料沒有關係我們到底要採用哪一種方式啊我這題其實是要問院長啦院長我們到底是要編預算還是要開放還是要修法"},{"start":325.558,"end":345.326,"text":"我還是跟委員承認首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足我們在硬體的製造上面是可以領先的但是軟體的不足所以我們在急步的追趕那急步追趕總要有一個開始那現在是正在開始的過程當中我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後我認為第一個要先入門"},{"start":346.71,"end":348.331,"text":"三、10月11日上午9時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":368.885,"end":386.19,"text":"大大的不足我承認大大的不足但是我說這是一個起步報告委員我們在台德的應用推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部分希望委員能夠支持那是有編資料購買的預算嗎有如果需要授權的部分我們會編的多少"},{"start":389.423,"end":410.601,"text":"總數我告訴你了,主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦,這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算,我們來看一下,接下來我相信就說起步嘛,我覺得我們說不要講說台灣世界中心的時候就喊很大聲啦,然後呢我們要編預算要做事的時候就說我們還在起步,但是行政院還是有做事,我們也是予以鼓勵啦,你們有說要提出什麼?"},{"start":411.221,"end":422.37,"text":"促進資料創新利用發展條例請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權修改一些相關的法令跟AI訓練使用有沒有"},{"start":425.388,"end":446.823,"text":"我們現在正在進行當中,我們會朝這個方向努力。院長,我們上一次總質詢部部有AI是您喊出來的,結果我們今天發現部部正AI,要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲,結果要規劃計畫的時候每個人都說這是誰的問題誰的問題,我們等一下來看,如果我們沒有完整的資料,我們的語言模型就是營養不良。"},{"start":447.943,"end":449.184,"text":"這會牽涉到什麼?"},{"start":449.184,"end":462.228,"text":"韌性的問題,這是文化的韌性。 我希望部長、院長能夠給一個期限,明確的期限。 何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題?"},{"start":462.228,"end":466.209,"text":"給一個期限。 你說要追趕,我們總要有期限嘛。 追趕100年也是不追趕啊。"},{"start":467.265,"end":495.067,"text":"跟委員說明我覺得一步來我們從首長副首長到三級機關的首長我們都訓練了他們進入到AI情境的這個過程我們的人種都他們要訓練我同意但是院長的方針要出來我能不能給一個6個月的期限在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案一定會有進展但進展的程度是不是成如委員所需要所期待的我們來努力"},{"start":496.488,"end":499.99,"text":"好了,我想除了資料,還有一個很重要的是什麼?"},{"start":499.99,"end":502.012,"text":"資金吶!"},{"start":502.012,"end":511.878,"text":"這已經不是文化韌性的問題,是國家韌性,經濟韌性的問題。 請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案,預算規模是多少嗎?"},{"start":513.564,"end":539.056,"text":"我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?"},{"start":539.716,"end":546.307,"text":"有人預估,2027年要到千億美元,2025、26可能要到百億美元。 日本是我們的12倍,你覺得夠不夠啊?"},{"start":547.571,"end":573.453,"text":"我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列當中如果有任何的突發或是需求國家財政允許我們當然有計畫是可以再調整但目前我們只能做這樣的編列現在確實AI突發的狀況很多所以我們現在預算總預算還有修改的機會希望院長可以好好修改一下那個主委您稍等今天我要跟院長好好交流一下"},{"start":574.193,"end":601.394,"text":"您的部會提出來的相關的數字您自己要非常的清楚我們要有一個算力的預估規劃我們才能夠抓出預算結果呢我們光看算力先從100PF到116PF然後說2027年要280要480我告訴院長啊2027年如果是480PF連2024年的日本都趕不上你還說要什麼亞洲前三再來我們看資金啦齁"},{"start":602.094,"end":626.094,"text":"我們的資金預算呢一遍再遍我老實講啊這一本36頁1331的預算主委我直接在質詢的時候他跟我說沒有看過然後呢他還說行政院的這個這個方案僅供參考指示方案我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎如果公案出10年3105號什麼都不用做"},{"start":626.554,"end":642.986,"text":"報告委員我不是說僅供參考,因為方案之後要有計劃,我們要細究的時候你說只是方案啊?不是不是,我們編預算一定有計劃。根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們,開出來我們就要付錢嗎?"},{"start":644.537,"end":660.005,"text":"我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。你到現在還是在講空話啊,你知道這是空的嗎?你是不是又要再追加?你追加可以啊,講清楚啊。方案是政府的願景,我們未來推動的方向。你已經寫出來是多少錢,就是多少錢。"},{"start":661.021,"end":678.65,"text":"我跟院長交流一下我理解您多次公開表示對總預算被退回表示遺憾但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案"},{"start":679.502,"end":690.666,"text":"我也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權。光是國科會主委對外談論114年精創計畫。結果呢?我們這個剛剛都看過了。他先講了200億。再來呢?上週國科會的業務報告寫183億。今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億。結果呢?我們要資料出來是多少?90.49是國科會的。我先講,你讓我講清楚。"},{"start":708.223,"end":712.945,"text":"我們覺得非常離譜,因為為什麼你們會有各種數字不同?"},{"start":713.547,"end":739.334,"text":"因為你們所有的計畫名稱都不一樣我直接列出來7個部會14個不同的名稱我現在要讓院長知道你又是叫晶片驅動你又是叫創新驅動你又是晶片創新又是挑戰計畫你自己都列不出來讓我們立法院怎麼監督啊我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的他名稱可能會調整但是都在我們的方案裡面"},{"start":740.65,"end":763.099,"text":"10票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事?預算法第39條分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少?你都要列得很清楚啊!我們計畫書裡面都會有列那今年的預算155億,明年是183億因為我目標200億但是在行政院審查"},{"start":763.459,"end":777.911,"text":"你現在要變回183啊!你剛剛說155啊!那是今年的預算啊!明年的變成是183啊!所以183就是183,又不會再變了?不會變了。你們裡面都找出來,等一下,那院長我要告訴你,這183億裡面是7個部會的預算。"},{"start":781.54,"end":807.477,"text":"為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢?為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢?那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算換進去啊?因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。好嘛,你看嘛,你到底是國科會還是國發會,你們到底誰講什麼啊?國科會編列科技預算。國科會編列科技預算,那成效是不是應該要國科會來承擔啊?各部會一起承擔。"},{"start":810.722,"end":811.384,"text":"院長你聽到了齁?"},{"start":814.309,"end":818.29,"text":"所以院長您的角色很重要我要先講從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後"},{"start":843.695,"end":859.775,"text":"有國科會、數法部、經濟部、國發會。 結果呢,我們光要講結果的時候,4年又要推動20萬名, 算力要提升全球前三。 結果呢,這個,大家互相推諉啊,講到AI人人都要分一點預算,我們剛剛看到了7個部會啊,"},{"start":861.036,"end":874.348,"text":"結果呢,講到KPI的時候每個人都說是別人的責任,今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席一個,給所有全國人民一個明確的答案。究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的?主導兼主責啊?你預算是預算?"},{"start":880.857,"end":891.845,"text":"你跟他講的也有經濟部也有其他的部會都有 但是整個科技預算 科技預算的整合就是在國科會"},{"start":893.26,"end":908.173,"text":"所以我們會協助所有的部會。那你覺得這樣子分錢的是一個結果大家都落跑?這是對的預算分配的方法嗎?行政院的組織就是國防部主委本身是政務委員。那我丟一題給院長,你就會發現一個很微妙的地方。我們問了所有的部會,4年20萬AA人才。"},{"start":914.739,"end":942.908,"text":"到底明年要培育出多少AI人才每一個部會你剛剛講了嘛四個部會要共同做KPI嘛要有結果嘛結果明年要多少人他有國外的進來的學生的人才有國內培養這整個湊起來是12萬打包票院長你得到答案啦每一個人都在逃啦不要步步有AI結果是步步蹭AI啦要院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了要發揮領導統一真正做出主權AI我當然負最後的責任"},{"start":946.403,"end":946.584,"text":"謝謝葛委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:02:22 - 11:18:11","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155471,"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時2分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葛委員好，您辛苦了。"],["葛委員如鈞：您比較辛苦，大家都辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：我習慣了。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們副院長、主席也很辛苦，大家都非常辛苦。科技不分藍綠，所有的人也都非常關注科技發展，今年9月的時候，行政院召開經濟發展委員會，您提出了主權AI，因為不分藍、綠、白，所以我把您放在第一頁，本席深感認同，但是想請教一下院長，您認為要實現主權AI，政府的首要任務到底是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不僅提出主權AI，我還提出了民主AI，即AI不能侵害人權。主權AI大家說就是要有臺灣元素、我們在地的文化，政府一定要想辦法先建立一個相當大的資料庫，讓所有的臺灣元素進到裡面來共同學習之後，才能反映臺灣真正的國情跟民情。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好！所以要發展主權AI，不外乎就是資料啦！我們政府在112年4月正式啟動TAIDE可信任生成式AI對話引擎的計畫，想請問一下院長，您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料外，政府部門應該帶頭向TAIDE計畫開放資料，作為訓練文本使用，您是否認同？您剛剛已經提了，你的答案就是要啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：TAIDE是一個剛剛在起步的大型……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有臺灣元素的資料，怎麼會有臺灣的主權AI？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，它是一個剛剛起步的大型語言模型，我們還在建置當中，那目前……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是願意開放資料，帶頭給他們？你沒有資料訓練，怎麼會有本土元素呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛開始我們會採取比較保守一點的方式，讓它建立一個基本的能力之後，再讓更多的資訊進來，現在還在這個過程。"],["葛委員如鈞：主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了，我直接問院長，您知道目前各部會加總起來，向TAIDE開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這應該主委比較清楚。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在政府開放資料的部分，只要不牽涉到人權的議題……"],["葛委員如鈞：很好嘛！都儘量開放嘛！帶頭開放嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們直接幫你查了，TAIDE的官網，目前光是列席的6個部會裡面，就有2個是沒有列在上面向TAIDE開放資料的，分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院，當然故宮最近有跟Wikipedia、有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分，但是為什麼沒有列在TAIDE資料合作單位上面呢？TAIDE作為傾全國之力開發的模型，院長一聲下令要做主權AI，這個資料沒有提供完整的話，我們怎麼有辦法做主權AI呢？至少應該要由政府部會帶頭全面向TAIDE，還有很多其他民間的，像Taiwan LLM也做得很好，去提供這些資料、本地的資料，我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。","院長，為什麼我們這麼急切？同樣是亞洲國家，面臨語料相對稀少的困境，大家都是一樣的，日本是傾全國之力要開發這個模型，參數量要達到1,000億，這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的，結果我們TAIDE開發今年4月釋出的頂多是80億，還沒有辦法開放的是130億，我們到底要怎麼去跟人家一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢？政府曾經多次強調，TAIDE的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權，但是其實TAIDE為了要取得這些語料，不外乎兩種方式，第一種，我們訂定一個參數的目標，依照所需的資料量，逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料；第二個，參考鄰國日本修正著作權法，讓大語言模型可以大量訓練。請教院長，TAIDE或者我們臺灣在開發主權AI的資料取得上，到底要採用哪一種方式？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，參數的數目不是跟資料量、訓練資料有關，而是跟模型的複雜度有關。至於資料的……"],["葛委員如鈞：你的資料量如果不夠的話，模型複雜得起來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配，應該要搭配……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以到底有沒有關嘛？你不要在這裡……"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個沒有關，真的是沒有關。"],["葛委員如鈞：真的沒有關？好，我們現在錄起來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是模型的複雜度。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我就算用很少的資料，也可以讓參數很複雜，你確定喔！要確定喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然複雜的模型需要用更多的資料。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係，我們到底要採用哪一種方式？我這一題其實是要問院長，院長，我們到底是要編預算，還是要開放，還是要修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是跟委員承認，首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足，我們在硬體的製造上面是可以、領先的，但是軟體不足，所以我們在急步地追趕，但急步追趕總要有個開始，現在是正在開始的過程當中，我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後，我認為第一個要先入門，再來要訓練，我們才能慢慢調整……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我現在……因為我們現在在討論明年的預算了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們明年不可能不追趕嘛！所以我們到底有沒有要編預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們明年的預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：我幫院長看過了，預算書裡面，我們TAIDE只有1.4億……"],["卓院長榮泰：明年的預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：1.4億還包含開發，你是要怎麼買資料？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟委員剛剛說的日本的預算規模比起來，我們當然大大地不足……"],["葛委員如鈞：日本的預算是12倍。"],["卓院長榮泰：我承認大大地不足，但是我說這是一個起步。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們在TAIDE的應用、推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部會，希望委員能夠支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：那要列清楚啦！有編資料購買的預算嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，如果需要授權的部分，我們會編預算。"],["葛委員如鈞：編了多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：總數我……"],["葛委員如鈞：我告訴你啦，主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦！這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算。我們來看一下，接下來我相信就是說起步嘛，我覺得我們不要講說臺灣是世界中心的時候就喊得很大聲啦，然後我們要編預算、要做事的時候就說我們還在起步，但是行政院還是有做事，我們也是予以鼓勵，你們有說要提出「促進資料創新利用發展條例」，請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權，修改一些相關的法令供AI訓練使用，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：草案的研究請主委……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在進行當中，我們會朝這個方向努力，因為這還需要跟……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，我們上一次總質詢，部部有AI是您喊出來的，結果我們今天發現部部蹭AI啊！要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲啦，結果要規劃計畫的時候，每個人都說這是誰的問題、誰的問題，我們等一下來看，如果我們沒有完整的資料，我們的語言模型就是營養不良，這會牽涉到什麼？韌性的問題，這是文化的韌性，我希望院長能夠給一個明確的期限，何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題？給一個期限，你說要追趕，我們總要有期限嘛！追趕100年也是追趕啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員說明，我覺得一步一步來，我們從首長、副首長到三級機關的首長，我們都訓練他們進入到AI情境的過程，人總都舉辦過訓練課程。"],["葛委員如鈞：他們要訓練，我同意，但是院長的方針要出來，能不能給一個6個月的期限，在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定會有進展，但進展的程度是不是誠如委員所需要的……"],["葛委員如鈞：總要開始做嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所期待的，我們來努力看看，一定會有進展。"],["葛委員如鈞：承諾好不好？好啦！我想除了資料，還有一個很重要的是什麼？資金，這已經不是文化韌性的問題，是國家韌性、經濟韌性的問題。請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的晶創臺灣方案的預算規模是多少嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3,000億，但是我們第一年（今年）的預算是編列大概155億，明年會成長到183億……"],["葛委員如鈞：又有新數字155億……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個是要逐年，因為每年都會有新的案子進來，所以會逐年提升到每年……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，我先問您，您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠？有人預估2027年要到千億美元，2025、26年可能要到百億美元，日本是我們的十二倍，你覺得夠不夠啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只能……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：我是問院長，不好意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列，當中如果有任何的突發或者需求，國家財政允許，我們當然有計畫是可以再調整，但目前我們只能做這樣的編列。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在確實AI突發的狀況很多……"],["卓院長榮泰：很多、很多。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在總預算還有修改的機會，希望院長可以好好修改一下。","主委您稍等，今天我要跟院長好好交流一下，您的部會提出來的相關數字，您自己要非常的清楚"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們要有一個算力的預估、規劃，我們才能夠抓出預算，結果呢？我們光看算力，先從100 Petaflops到116 Petaflops，然後說2027年要280、要480，我告訴院長，2027年如果是480 Petaflops，連2024年的日本都趕不上，你還說要亞洲前三。","再來，我們看資金，我們的資金預算一變再變，老實講，這一本36頁1,330億的預算，主委直接在我質詢的時候跟我說沒有看過，然後他還說行政院的這個方案僅供參考、只是方案，我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎？如果光喊出10年3,000億的口號什麼都不用做……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我不是說僅供參考……"],["葛委員如鈞：這就是支票，你說只是方案啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為方案之後要有計畫……"],["葛委員如鈞：你說只是方案啊！我們要細究的時候，你說只是方案啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是、不是，我們編預算一定有計畫。"],["葛委員如鈞：你根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是。"],["葛委員如鈞：你開出來我們就要付錢嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。"],["葛委員如鈞：你到現在還是在講空話，難道這是空的嗎？你是不是又要再追加？你追加可以啊！講清楚啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：方案是政府的願景，是我們未來推動的方向，但是每……"],["葛委員如鈞：你已經寫出來是多少錢就是多少錢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我們明年的預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：我告訴各位，這樣1頁74億，1張紙74億，我跟院長交流一下，我理解您多次公開表示，對總預算被退回表示遺憾，但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案，也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權，光是國科會主委對外談論114年晶創計畫，結果他先講了200億，再來，上週國科會的業務報告寫183億，今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億，結果我們要資料，出來是多少？90.49億，是國科會的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：155億是今年……"],["葛委員如鈞：我先講，你讓我講清楚，我們覺得非常離譜，為什麼你們會有各種不同的數字？因為你們所有計畫案名稱都不一樣，我直接列出來，7個部會，14個不同的名稱，我現在要讓院長知道，你又是叫晶片驅動，又是叫創新驅動，又是晶片創新，又是挑戰計畫，你自己都列不出來，那我們立法院怎麼監督啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的，它名稱可能會調整，但是都在我們的方案裡面……"],["葛委員如鈞：支票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們計畫……"],["葛委員如鈞：預算法第三十九條規定，分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少，你都要列得很清楚啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們計畫書裡面都會有列，今年的預算155億，明年是183億，因為我們目標是200億，但是在行政院審查……"],["葛委員如鈞：你現在又變回183億啊？你剛剛是說155億啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：那是今年的預算啊，明年編的是183啊。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以183就是183，不會再變了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會變了。"],["葛委員如鈞：你們裡面都找出來……等一下，院長，那我要告訴你，這183億是七個部會的預算，為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢？為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢？那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算放進去啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：因位委員講的是晶創計畫，晶創計畫是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。"],["卓院長榮泰：科技預算是國科會在主辦的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好嘛，你看嘛，到底是國科會還是國發會，你們到底誰講什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會編列科技預算。"],["葛委員如鈞：國科會編列科技預算，那成效是不是應該要由國科會來承擔啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：各部會一起承擔。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，你聽到了喔！院長，你聽到了喔！科技的預算國科會來編列，然後責任由其他部會來承擔……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會協助行政院。"],["葛委員如鈞：這是你要的部會首長嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，國科會吳主委他本身也是政委，他就有統合各部會的職責跟責任。"],["葛委員如鈞：到底AI產業……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個他講的也沒錯，各部會在執行之後還是要由政委來做一個統合。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以院長您的角色很重要，我要先講，從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後，有國科會、數發部、經濟部、國發會，而我們光要講結果的時候，四年內要培養20萬名，算力要提升至全球前三，結果呢？大家互相推諉啊！講到AI，人人都要分一點預算，我們剛剛看到有七個部會，但講到KPI的時候，每個人都說是別人的責任。今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席、給所有全國人民一個明確的答案，究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的？主導兼主責啊！預算是預算，結果是結果，到底是哪一個部會？"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛講的也有經濟部，也有其他的部會，都有，但是整個科技預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：這樣你的主權AI怎麼主得起來啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：科技預算的整合就是在國科會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們會協助所有的部會。"],["葛委員如鈞：你覺得這樣分錢的是一個，結果大家都落跑，這是對的預算分配方法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院的組織就是國科會主委本身是政務委員，政務委員就負統合、協調各部會的責任。"],["葛委員如鈞：那我丟一題給院長，你就會發現一個很微妙的地方，我們問了所有的部會，四年要有20萬的AI人才，到底明年要培育出多少AI人才？每一個部會，你剛剛講了嘛，四個部會要共同負責KPI嘛、要有結果嘛！結果明年要多少人？"],["卓院長榮泰：這12萬有國外進來的人才、有國內培養，這整個湊起來是12萬跟8萬。"],["葛委員如鈞：我打包票，院長你得不到答案啦！每一個人都在逃啦，不要部部有AI，結果是部部蹭AI啦！院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了，要發揮領導統御，真正做出主權AI。"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然負最後的責任。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是南投市光榮里社區發展協會的好朋友，謝謝你們，我們在此歡迎你們到立法院參訪。","下一位我們請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}}