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\"民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 635.612, \"end\": 636.973, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 636.973, \"end\": 637.193, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 637.193, \"end\": 637.813, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 637.813, \"end\": 638.033, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 638.033, \"end\": 638.373, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 638.373, \"end\": 639.914, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 639.914, \"end\": 640.555, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 640.555, \"end\": 640.815, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 640.815, \"end\": 640.975, \"score\": 0.998}, 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775.987, \"end\": 777.147, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 777.147, \"end\": 777.387, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 777.387, \"end\": 777.587, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 777.587, \"end\": 777.727, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 777.727, \"end\": 777.987, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 777.987, \"end\": 778.767, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 778.767, \"end\": 779.047, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 779.047, \"end\": 779.127, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 779.127, \"end\": 779.207, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 779.207, \"end\": 779.428, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 779.428, \"end\": 780.668, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"彈\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 780.668, \"end\": 780.888, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 780.888, \"end\": 781.348, 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\"詞\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 795.992, \"end\": 796.092, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 796.092, \"end\": 796.192, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 796.192, \"end\": 796.352, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"侵\", \"start\": 796.352, \"end\": 796.572, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 796.572, \"end\": 796.772, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 796.772, \"end\": 796.892, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 796.892, \"end\": 797.052, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"語\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 797.052, \"end\": 797.192, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 797.192, \"end\": 797.312, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 797.312, \"end\": 797.432, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 797.432, \"end\": 798.052, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 798.052, \"end\": 798.132, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 798.132, \"end\": 798.232, \"score\": 0.802}, 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\"end\": 857.94, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 857.94, \"end\": 859.582, \"text\": \"這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 857.94, \"end\": 858.161, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 858.161, \"end\": 858.261, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 858.261, \"end\": 858.361, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 858.361, \"end\": 858.741, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 858.741, \"end\": 858.901, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 858.901, \"end\": 859.021, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 859.021, \"end\": 859.382, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 859.382, \"end\": 859.562, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 859.562, \"end\": 859.582, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 872.179, \"end\": 872.539, \"text\": \"好,文化部\", \"words\": 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00:00:47,123\n今天本席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題來跟您做一些探討。因為這些政策不僅影響聲援,還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展,族群和諧,設置攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任。\n\n3\n00:00:48,257 --> 00:01:06,832\n每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史,是否能夠真正實現轉型正義,並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值。我在這邊逐一質詢,那麼希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。\n\n4\n00:01:09,923 --> 00:01:34,158\n那麼首先呢,在針對院長您上週在對高金素美委員質詢時提出的一個回應,本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢淨法政策的時候,您回應他說,共產黨的話是您的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異,我相信也震驚了不少人。\n\n5\n00:01:35,472 --> 00:01:57,608\n包括本席在內,覺得院長的回應有一點帶呼輕視,還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解真正原住民的困境和訴求。這句話不僅是對高金素美委員個人的冒犯,它更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望,包括本席。\n\n6\n00:01:58,857 --> 00:02:25,129\n原住民的問題從來都不是只是單純的環保問題,它涉及土地、文化認同還有基本生存權。原住民族基本法也有規定,政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化生活方式,而高金委員所反映的不是只有他自己的意見,而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁法政策的憂心。\n\n7\n00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:50,372\n這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號所以院長您這番言論暴露出我們政治我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法的思維您只碰到只要凡是有不同的聲音就視為是對立這種敵我思維不僅讓政策推不動還限縮了公共討論的空間\n\n8\n00:02:52,442 --> 00:03:18,546\n這樣子的做法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋樑的一個角色原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題還加深了一些傷口\n\n9\n00:03:23,271 --> 00:03:41,883\n高經委員的質詢不是只有他個人的呼籲,而且還是代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對,那麼轉型正義還能夠落實嗎?本席在這邊。\n\n10\n00:03:43,206 --> 00:04:07,141\n要求院長向高金委員正式的公開道歉。這不僅是對他個人的尊重,那更是對所有原住民族的尊重。您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族甚至其他族群的訴求。院長,請您正視這些訴求,\n\n11\n00:04:09,070 --> 00:04:09,510\n我可以公開說明\n\n12\n00:04:28,427 --> 00:04:39,110\n我講了這句話之後,後面那句話是什麼?我跟高軍委員說,你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務,你的全國人民不只有原住民。\n\n13\n00:04:40,015 --> 00:05:02,726\n請要聽懂這一句話。是,院長,但是您可能忘了,高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲,那麼為全國人民服務,甚至為人民服務,應該是大家一起來做的事情,也很重要的是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。我也必須把人民擺在第一啊,但我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看。\n\n14\n00:05:08,288 --> 00:05:22,900\n是不是我必須這樣來做每個委員都有他的選區也都有他的支持者他的主權他可以從他的利益出發但必須衡量到全國的橫平性如果一個領域一個族群\n\n15\n00:05:24,896 --> 00:05:44,956\n市長,許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列,我想這是行政院很重要的專業。那當然我們知道您在這行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編組\n\n16\n00:05:47,518 --> 00:06:05,535\n你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足,這點我更是反對,但是這個是編列的專業。我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是,您看待這件事情的心態,還有原住民堅持的核心價值。\n\n17\n00:06:06,596 --> 00:06:13,721\n只要請委員看一下憲法70條,立法院對行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。\n\n18\n00:06:37,276 --> 00:07:06,102\n謝謝院長,謝謝。請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。我已經公開說明了。好,那接下來我們請文化部李部長。麻煩請文化部長備選。好,部長謝謝您。好,院長、部長,接下來本席想請問一下,部長你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館,您所了解的人權博物館。\n\n19\n00:07:07,731 --> 00:07:35,393\n我所了解的人權博物館,原來它是一個在景美的一個看守所,那後來把它改建成人權園區,然後保留了所有當時的狀態,然後裡面也做了...謝謝部長,那您有去看過嗎?您有去過人權博物館嗎?我不但有去,我還帶學生去做田野調查,然後請他們...好的,謝謝,那你應該知道本席接下來要講的東西,那麼人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要一個機構,您認同嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:38,055 --> 00:07:56,564\n所以在人權博物館,理應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題。但是我們常看到的,如果您也常去,大部分的策展,本席所看到的,都是集中在白色恐怖時期,對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。\n\n21\n00:07:57,584 --> 00:08:24,718\n根據國家人權博物館的組織法博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展所以我們來看一下這個數據這是人權博物館的數據在策展方面其實有點相當失衡33個從你們開館到現在的展覽有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題佔比已經大約快70%了那個時期的壓迫和不公\n\n22\n00:08:26,298 --> 00:08:53,433\n當然是重要的,但是在日治時期對原住民族、敏克族群殖民士的壓迫,那麼以日本人對原住民還有敏克的壓迫為例,五年李凡計劃所造成的歷史傷痛,也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中,79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關,佔比已經差不多70%了。\n\n23\n00:08:54,694 --> 00:09:09,857\n所以在這個展示當中是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候長期存在了偏見難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢另外在不義遺址\n\n24\n00:09:10,518 --> 00:09:38,273\n的定義上也犯了一樣的錯誤考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗甚至現在可能都也有我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤這樣子的展示不僅是會喪失歷史的全面性而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史\n\n25\n00:09:39,229 --> 00:09:54,879\n我期待這樣一個展示在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討將不同的時期不同的階段並用不同的視角多重的視角來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史\n\n26\n00:09:56,305 --> 00:10:04,110\n我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤。所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應,我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作,讓轉型正義的目的,是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解。\n\n27\n00:10:22,318 --> 00:10:34,513\n因為許多研究顯示,現階段,許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高。民眾不信任促轉會,民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助。\n\n28\n00:10:35,612 --> 00:10:56,063\n民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群\n\n29\n00:10:59,965 --> 00:11:17,234\n我希望我們人權博物館跳脫您剛才講的那個問題,可以盡到所有的人權。但是白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群。白色恐怖被壓迫的是各種族群。所以接下來我們來探討一個問題,因為院長就沒機會講話了。但是我們來探討一個問題,您每次講話都讓我非常的感動。\n\n30\n00:11:22,116 --> 00:11:39,064\n但是我所看到您的作為都讓我非常的疑問。來,5月22號在我們的教育文化委員會當時您剛上任。中正紀念壇轉型有許多委員提出了問題,所以您說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。\n\n31\n00:11:40,144 --> 00:11:58,601\n當時有人問到你有關於一對的在堂體跟戶外。您說到一對不應該是政權轉換的工具。您當時也在徵求各界來對未來的想像有所討論。但是讓我很難理解的是一個月後您的態度突然轉變。突然間\n\n32\n00:12:02,179 --> 00:12:22,711\n一、對就被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。那我不知道在這個過程當中包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論。所以您當時講的話其實讓我非常感動,非常的人性化。但是您做的,我們看到的這個回應,實時的作為是讓我們非常疑問。\n\n33\n00:12:25,151 --> 00:12:51,559\n中正紀念堂的轉席一對一出堂體有全民共識嗎?為什麼您的態度在這麼短時間就轉變了?這樣的轉變有基於充分的討論嗎?還是有其他政治性的考量?所以這個部分本席提醒您在您剛才講人權博物館的未來的同時希望您能夠言行合一最後我們還是探討一個文化政策的議題\n\n34\n00:12:53,766 --> 00:13:21,233\n臺灣臺語政策我想您應該知道這個政策一推出引發了不小反彈在上週的內政委員會您知道多少委員針對這個定義還有這個議題提出了很多看法好幾位委員質疑臺灣臺語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義這個名詞有沒有侵犯其他語言的地位不知道您有沒有注意到上週是次長\n\n35\n00:13:23,332 --> 00:13:39,253\n來這個會議當中,次長回應說,臺灣臺語是國家語言之一,地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬族語、臺灣手語等一樣,並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思,那麼很加諱次長,但問題是,\n\n36\n00:13:41,133 --> 00:14:04,149\n從其他族群的角度來看,這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎?定定國家語言政策的初衷,如您所講的,本來就是要傳承跟保護濱維或者是台灣多元的語言文化,但是台灣台語的推動,您真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎?為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前,您最近在舉辦10月13日剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的11場論文時,\n\n37\n00:14:10,794 --> 00:14:17,940\n文化部就直接關上了臺灣、臺語這個名詞,形成了全民共識了嗎?\n\n38\n00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:19,582\n這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?\n\n39\n00:14:32,179 --> 00:14:32,539\n好,文化部\n\n40\n00:14:58,359 --> 00:15:25,380\n您可以讓各族群再充分討論、再推動這個政策嗎?部長,臺灣台語政策的推動必須要在全民共識上,不能忽略其他族群的感受,包括本席作為一個原住民。政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策,避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席提醒文化,\n\n41\n00:15:26,451 --> 00:15:30,376\n院長,只有在沒有包容的文化政策上,會是另外一種壓迫。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11428\t11608\t林委員好\n28166\t47123\t今天本席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題來跟您做一些探討。因為這些政策不僅影響聲援,還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展,族群和諧,設置攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任。\n48257\t66832\t每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史,是否能夠真正實現轉型正義,並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值。我在這邊逐一質詢,那麼希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。\n69923\t94158\t那麼首先呢,在針對院長您上週在對高金素美委員質詢時提出的一個回應,本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢淨法政策的時候,您回應他說,共產黨的話是您的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異,我相信也震驚了不少人。\n95472\t117608\t包括本席在內,覺得院長的回應有一點帶呼輕視,還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解真正原住民的困境和訴求。這句話不僅是對高金素美委員個人的冒犯,它更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望,包括本席。\n118857\t145129\t原住民的問題從來都不是只是單純的環保問題,它涉及土地、文化認同還有基本生存權。 原住民族基本法也有規定,政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化生活方式,而高金委員所反映的不是只有他自己的意見,而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁法政策的憂心。\n146730\t170372\t這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號所以院長您這番言論暴露出我們政治我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法的思維您只碰到只要凡是有不同的聲音就視為是對立這種敵我思維不僅讓政策推不動還限縮了公共討論的空間\n172442\t198546\t這樣子的做法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋樑的一個角色原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題還加深了一些傷口\n203271\t221883\t高經委員的質詢不是只有他個人的呼籲,而且還是代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對,那麼轉型正義還能夠落實嗎?本席在這邊。\n223206\t247141\t要求院長向高金委員正式的公開道歉。 這不僅是對他個人的尊重,那更是對所有原住民族的尊重。 您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族甚至其他族群的訴求。 院長,請您正視這些訴求,\n249070\t249510\t我可以公開說明\n268427\t279110\t我講了這句話之後,後面那句話是什麼?我跟高軍委員說,你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務,你的全國人民不只有原住民。\n280015\t302726\t請要聽懂這一句話。 是,院長,但是您可能忘了,高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲,那麼為全國人民服務,甚至為人民服務,應該是大家一起來做的事情,也很重要的是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。我也必須把人民擺在第一啊,但我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看。\n308288\t322900\t是不是我必須這樣來做每個委員都有他的選區也都有他的支持者他的主權他可以從他的利益出發但必須衡量到全國的橫平性如果一個領域一個族群\n324896\t344956\t市長,許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列,我想這是行政院很重要的專業。那當然我們知道您在這行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編組\n347518\t365535\t你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足,這點我更是反對,但是這個是編列的專業。我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是,您看待這件事情的心態,還有原住民堅持的核心價值。\n366596\t373721\t只要請委員看一下憲法70條,立法院對行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。\n397276\t426102\t謝謝院長,謝謝。請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。我已經公開說明了。好,那接下來我們請文化部李部長。麻煩請文化部長備選。好,部長謝謝您。好,院長、部長,接下來本席想請問一下,部長你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館,您所了解的人權博物館。\n427731\t455393\t我所了解的人權博物館,原來它是一個在景美的一個看守所,那後來把它改建成人權園區,然後保留了所有當時的狀態,然後裡面也做了...謝謝部長,那您有去看過嗎?您有去過人權博物館嗎?我不但有去,我還帶學生去做田野調查,然後請他們...好的,謝謝,那你應該知道本席接下來要講的東西,那麼人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要一個機構,您認同嗎?\n458055\t476564\t所以在人權博物館,理應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題。但是我們常看到的,如果您也常去,大部分的策展,本席所看到的,都是集中在白色恐怖時期,對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。\n477584\t504718\t根據國家人權博物館的組織法博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展所以我們來看一下這個數據這是人權博物館的數據在策展方面其實有點相當失衡33個從你們開館到現在的展覽有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題佔比已經大約快70%了那個時期的壓迫和不公\n506298\t533433\t當然是重要的,但是在日治時期對原住民族、敏克族群殖民士的壓迫,那麼以日本人對原住民還有敏克的壓迫為例,五年李凡計劃所造成的歷史傷痛,也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中,79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關,佔比已經差不多70%了。\n534694\t549857\t所以在這個展示當中是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候長期存在了偏見難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢另外在不義遺址\n550518\t578273\t的定義上也犯了一樣的錯誤考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗甚至現在可能都也有我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤這樣子的展示不僅是會喪失歷史的全面性而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史\n579229\t594879\t我期待這樣一個展示在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討將不同的時期不同的階段並用不同的視角多重的視角來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史\n596305\t604110\t我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤。所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應,我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作,讓轉型正義的目的,是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解。\n622318\t634513\t因為許多研究顯示,現階段,許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高。 民眾不信任促轉會,民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助。\n635612\t656063\t民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群\n659965\t677234\t我希望我們人權博物館跳脫您剛才講的那個問題,可以盡到所有的人權。但是白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群。白色恐怖被壓迫的是各種族群。所以接下來我們來探討一個問題,因為院長就沒機會講話了。但是我們來探討一個問題,您每次講話都讓我非常的感動。\n682116\t699064\t但是我所看到您的作為都讓我非常的疑問。來,5月22號在我們的教育文化委員會當時您剛上任。中正紀念壇轉型有許多委員提出了問題,所以您說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。\n700144\t718601\t當時有人問到你有關於一對的在堂體跟戶外。 您說到一對不應該是政權轉換的工具。 您當時也在徵求各界來對未來的想像有所討論。 但是讓我很難理解的是一個月後您的態度突然轉變。 突然間\n722179\t742711\t一、對就被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。那我不知道在這個過程當中包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論。所以您當時講的話其實讓我非常感動,非常的人性化。但是您做的,我們看到的這個回應,實時的作為是讓我們非常疑問。\n745151\t771559\t中正紀念堂的轉席一對一出堂體有全民共識嗎?為什麼您的態度在這麼短時間就轉變了?這樣的轉變有基於充分的討論嗎?還是有其他政治性的考量?所以這個部分本席提醒您在您剛才講人權博物館的未來的同時希望您能夠言行合一最後我們還是探討一個文化政策的議題\n773766\t801233\t臺灣臺語政策我想您應該知道這個政策一推出引發了不小反彈在上週的內政委員會您知道多少委員針對這個定義還有這個議題提出了很多看法好幾位委員質疑臺灣臺語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義這個名詞有沒有侵犯其他語言的地位不知道您有沒有注意到上週是次長\n803332\t819253\t來這個會議當中,次長回應說,臺灣臺語是國家語言之一,地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬族語、臺灣手語等一樣,並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思,那麼很加諱次長,但問題是,\n821133\t844149\t從其他族群的角度來看,這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎?定定國家語言政策的初衷,如您所講的,本來就是要傳承跟保護濱維或者是台灣多元的語言文化,但是台灣台語的推動,您真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎?為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前,您最近在舉辦10月13日剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的11場論文時,\n850794\t857940\t文化部就直接關上了臺灣、臺語這個名詞,形成了全民共識了嗎?\n857940\t859582\t這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?\n872179\t872539\t好,文化部\n898359\t925380\t您可以讓各族群再充分討論、再推動這個政策嗎?部長,臺灣台語政策的推動必須要在全民共識上,不能忽略其他族群的感受,包括本席作為一個原住民。政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策,避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席提醒文化,\n926451\t930376\t院長,只有在沒有包容的文化政策上,會是另外一種壓迫。\n","txt":"林委員好\n今天本席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題來跟您做一些探討。因為這些政策不僅影響聲援,還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展,族群和諧,設置攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任。\n每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史,是否能夠真正實現轉型正義,並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值。我在這邊逐一質詢,那麼希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。\n那麼首先呢,在針對院長您上週在對高金素美委員質詢時提出的一個回應,本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢淨法政策的時候,您回應他說,共產黨的話是您的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異,我相信也震驚了不少人。\n包括本席在內,覺得院長的回應有一點帶呼輕視,還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解真正原住民的困境和訴求。這句話不僅是對高金素美委員個人的冒犯,它更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望,包括本席。\n原住民的問題從來都不是只是單純的環保問題,它涉及土地、文化認同還有基本生存權。 原住民族基本法也有規定,政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化生活方式,而高金委員所反映的不是只有他自己的意見,而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁法政策的憂心。\n這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號所以院長您這番言論暴露出我們政治我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法的思維您只碰到只要凡是有不同的聲音就視為是對立這種敵我思維不僅讓政策推不動還限縮了公共討論的空間\n這樣子的做法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋樑的一個角色原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題還加深了一些傷口\n高經委員的質詢不是只有他個人的呼籲,而且還是代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對,那麼轉型正義還能夠落實嗎?本席在這邊。\n要求院長向高金委員正式的公開道歉。 這不僅是對他個人的尊重,那更是對所有原住民族的尊重。 您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族甚至其他族群的訴求。 院長,請您正視這些訴求,\n我可以公開說明\n我講了這句話之後,後面那句話是什麼?我跟高軍委員說,你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務,你的全國人民不只有原住民。\n請要聽懂這一句話。 是,院長,但是您可能忘了,高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲,那麼為全國人民服務,甚至為人民服務,應該是大家一起來做的事情,也很重要的是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。我也必須把人民擺在第一啊,但我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看。\n是不是我必須這樣來做每個委員都有他的選區也都有他的支持者他的主權他可以從他的利益出發但必須衡量到全國的橫平性如果一個領域一個族群\n市長,許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列,我想這是行政院很重要的專業。那當然我們知道您在這行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編組\n你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足,這點我更是反對,但是這個是編列的專業。我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是,您看待這件事情的心態,還有原住民堅持的核心價值。\n只要請委員看一下憲法70條,立法院對行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。\n謝謝院長,謝謝。請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。我已經公開說明了。好,那接下來我們請文化部李部長。麻煩請文化部長備選。好,部長謝謝您。好,院長、部長,接下來本席想請問一下,部長你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館,您所了解的人權博物館。\n我所了解的人權博物館,原來它是一個在景美的一個看守所,那後來把它改建成人權園區,然後保留了所有當時的狀態,然後裡面也做了...謝謝部長,那您有去看過嗎?您有去過人權博物館嗎?我不但有去,我還帶學生去做田野調查,然後請他們...好的,謝謝,那你應該知道本席接下來要講的東西,那麼人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要一個機構,您認同嗎?\n所以在人權博物館,理應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題。但是我們常看到的,如果您也常去,大部分的策展,本席所看到的,都是集中在白色恐怖時期,對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。\n根據國家人權博物館的組織法博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展所以我們來看一下這個數據這是人權博物館的數據在策展方面其實有點相當失衡33個從你們開館到現在的展覽有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題佔比已經大約快70%了那個時期的壓迫和不公\n當然是重要的,但是在日治時期對原住民族、敏克族群殖民士的壓迫,那麼以日本人對原住民還有敏克的壓迫為例,五年李凡計劃所造成的歷史傷痛,也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中,79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關,佔比已經差不多70%了。\n所以在這個展示當中是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候長期存在了偏見難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢另外在不義遺址\n的定義上也犯了一樣的錯誤考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗甚至現在可能都也有我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤這樣子的展示不僅是會喪失歷史的全面性而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史\n我期待這樣一個展示在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討將不同的時期不同的階段並用不同的視角多重的視角來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史\n我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤。所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應,我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作,讓轉型正義的目的,是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解。\n因為許多研究顯示,現階段,許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高。 民眾不信任促轉會,民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助。\n民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群\n我希望我們人權博物館跳脫您剛才講的那個問題,可以盡到所有的人權。但是白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群。白色恐怖被壓迫的是各種族群。所以接下來我們來探討一個問題,因為院長就沒機會講話了。但是我們來探討一個問題,您每次講話都讓我非常的感動。\n但是我所看到您的作為都讓我非常的疑問。來,5月22號在我們的教育文化委員會當時您剛上任。中正紀念壇轉型有許多委員提出了問題,所以您說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。\n當時有人問到你有關於一對的在堂體跟戶外。 您說到一對不應該是政權轉換的工具。 您當時也在徵求各界來對未來的想像有所討論。 但是讓我很難理解的是一個月後您的態度突然轉變。 突然間\n一、對就被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。那我不知道在這個過程當中包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論。所以您當時講的話其實讓我非常感動,非常的人性化。但是您做的,我們看到的這個回應,實時的作為是讓我們非常疑問。\n中正紀念堂的轉席一對一出堂體有全民共識嗎?為什麼您的態度在這麼短時間就轉變了?這樣的轉變有基於充分的討論嗎?還是有其他政治性的考量?所以這個部分本席提醒您在您剛才講人權博物館的未來的同時希望您能夠言行合一最後我們還是探討一個文化政策的議題\n臺灣臺語政策我想您應該知道這個政策一推出引發了不小反彈在上週的內政委員會您知道多少委員針對這個定義還有這個議題提出了很多看法好幾位委員質疑臺灣臺語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義這個名詞有沒有侵犯其他語言的地位不知道您有沒有注意到上週是次長\n來這個會議當中,次長回應說,臺灣臺語是國家語言之一,地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬族語、臺灣手語等一樣,並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思,那麼很加諱次長,但問題是,\n從其他族群的角度來看,這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎?定定國家語言政策的初衷,如您所講的,本來就是要傳承跟保護濱維或者是台灣多元的語言文化,但是台灣台語的推動,您真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎?為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前,您最近在舉辦10月13日剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的11場論文時,\n文化部就直接關上了臺灣、臺語這個名詞,形成了全民共識了嗎?\n這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?\n好,文化部\n您可以讓各族群再充分討論、再推動這個政策嗎?部長,臺灣台語政策的推動必須要在全民共識上,不能忽略其他族群的感受,包括本席作為一個原住民。政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策,避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席提醒文化,\n院長,只有在沒有包容的文化政策上,會是另外一種壓迫。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.428 --> 00:11.608\n林委員好\n\n00:28.166 --> 00:47.123\n今天本席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題來跟您做一些探討。因為這些政策不僅影響聲援,還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展,族群和諧,設置攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任。\n\n00:48.257 --> 01:06.832\n每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史,是否能夠真正實現轉型正義,並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值。我在這邊逐一質詢,那麼希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。\n\n01:09.923 --> 01:34.158\n那麼首先呢,在針對院長您上週在對高金素美委員質詢時提出的一個回應,本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢淨法政策的時候,您回應他說,共產黨的話是您的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異,我相信也震驚了不少人。\n\n01:35.472 --> 01:57.608\n包括本席在內,覺得院長的回應有一點帶呼輕視,還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解真正原住民的困境和訴求。這句話不僅是對高金素美委員個人的冒犯,它更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望,包括本席。\n\n01:58.857 --> 02:25.129\n原住民的問題從來都不是只是單純的環保問題,它涉及土地、文化認同還有基本生存權。原住民族基本法也有規定,政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化生活方式,而高金委員所反映的不是只有他自己的意見,而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁法政策的憂心。\n\n02:26.730 --> 02:50.372\n這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號所以院長您這番言論暴露出我們政治我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法的思維您只碰到只要凡是有不同的聲音就視為是對立這種敵我思維不僅讓政策推不動還限縮了公共討論的空間\n\n02:52.442 --> 03:18.546\n這樣子的做法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋樑的一個角色原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題還加深了一些傷口\n\n03:23.271 --> 03:41.883\n高經委員的質詢不是只有他個人的呼籲,而且還是代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對,那麼轉型正義還能夠落實嗎?本席在這邊。\n\n03:43.206 --> 04:07.141\n要求院長向高金委員正式的公開道歉。這不僅是對他個人的尊重,那更是對所有原住民族的尊重。您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族甚至其他族群的訴求。院長,請您正視這些訴求,\n\n04:09.070 --> 04:09.510\n我可以公開說明\n\n04:28.427 --> 04:39.110\n我講了這句話之後,後面那句話是什麼?我跟高軍委員說,你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務,你的全國人民不只有原住民。\n\n04:40.015 --> 05:02.726\n請要聽懂這一句話。是,院長,但是您可能忘了,高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲,那麼為全國人民服務,甚至為人民服務,應該是大家一起來做的事情,也很重要的是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。我也必須把人民擺在第一啊,但我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看。\n\n05:08.288 --> 05:22.900\n是不是我必須這樣來做每個委員都有他的選區也都有他的支持者他的主權他可以從他的利益出發但必須衡量到全國的橫平性如果一個領域一個族群\n\n05:24.896 --> 05:44.956\n市長,許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列,我想這是行政院很重要的專業。那當然我們知道您在這行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編組\n\n05:47.518 --> 06:05.535\n你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足,這點我更是反對,但是這個是編列的專業。我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是,您看待這件事情的心態,還有原住民堅持的核心價值。\n\n06:06.596 --> 06:13.721\n只要請委員看一下憲法70條,立法院對行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。\n\n06:37.276 --> 07:06.102\n謝謝院長,謝謝。請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。我已經公開說明了。好,那接下來我們請文化部李部長。麻煩請文化部長備選。好,部長謝謝您。好,院長、部長,接下來本席想請問一下,部長你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館,您所了解的人權博物館。\n\n07:07.731 --> 07:35.393\n我所了解的人權博物館,原來它是一個在景美的一個看守所,那後來把它改建成人權園區,然後保留了所有當時的狀態,然後裡面也做了...謝謝部長,那您有去看過嗎?您有去過人權博物館嗎?我不但有去,我還帶學生去做田野調查,然後請他們...好的,謝謝,那你應該知道本席接下來要講的東西,那麼人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要一個機構,您認同嗎?\n\n07:38.055 --> 07:56.564\n所以在人權博物館,理應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題。但是我們常看到的,如果您也常去,大部分的策展,本席所看到的,都是集中在白色恐怖時期,對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。\n\n07:57.584 --> 08:24.718\n根據國家人權博物館的組織法博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展所以我們來看一下這個數據這是人權博物館的數據在策展方面其實有點相當失衡33個從你們開館到現在的展覽有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題佔比已經大約快70%了那個時期的壓迫和不公\n\n08:26.298 --> 08:53.433\n當然是重要的,但是在日治時期對原住民族、敏克族群殖民士的壓迫,那麼以日本人對原住民還有敏克的壓迫為例,五年李凡計劃所造成的歷史傷痛,也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中,79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關,佔比已經差不多70%了。\n\n08:54.694 --> 09:09.857\n所以在這個展示當中是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候長期存在了偏見難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢另外在不義遺址\n\n09:10.518 --> 09:38.273\n的定義上也犯了一樣的錯誤考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗甚至現在可能都也有我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤這樣子的展示不僅是會喪失歷史的全面性而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史\n\n09:39.229 --> 09:54.879\n我期待這樣一個展示在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討將不同的時期不同的階段並用不同的視角多重的視角來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史\n\n09:56.305 --> 10:04.110\n我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤。所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應,我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作,讓轉型正義的目的,是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解。\n\n10:22.318 --> 10:34.513\n因為許多研究顯示,現階段,許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高。民眾不信任促轉會,民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助。\n\n10:35.612 --> 10:56.063\n民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群\n\n10:59.965 --> 11:17.234\n我希望我們人權博物館跳脫您剛才講的那個問題,可以盡到所有的人權。但是白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群。白色恐怖被壓迫的是各種族群。所以接下來我們來探討一個問題,因為院長就沒機會講話了。但是我們來探討一個問題,您每次講話都讓我非常的感動。\n\n11:22.116 --> 11:39.064\n但是我所看到您的作為都讓我非常的疑問。來,5月22號在我們的教育文化委員會當時您剛上任。中正紀念壇轉型有許多委員提出了問題,所以您說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。\n\n11:40.144 --> 11:58.601\n當時有人問到你有關於一對的在堂體跟戶外。您說到一對不應該是政權轉換的工具。您當時也在徵求各界來對未來的想像有所討論。但是讓我很難理解的是一個月後您的態度突然轉變。突然間\n\n12:02.179 --> 12:22.711\n一、對就被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。那我不知道在這個過程當中包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論。所以您當時講的話其實讓我非常感動,非常的人性化。但是您做的,我們看到的這個回應,實時的作為是讓我們非常疑問。\n\n12:25.151 --> 12:51.559\n中正紀念堂的轉席一對一出堂體有全民共識嗎?為什麼您的態度在這麼短時間就轉變了?這樣的轉變有基於充分的討論嗎?還是有其他政治性的考量?所以這個部分本席提醒您在您剛才講人權博物館的未來的同時希望您能夠言行合一最後我們還是探討一個文化政策的議題\n\n12:53.766 --> 13:21.233\n臺灣臺語政策我想您應該知道這個政策一推出引發了不小反彈在上週的內政委員會您知道多少委員針對這個定義還有這個議題提出了很多看法好幾位委員質疑臺灣臺語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義這個名詞有沒有侵犯其他語言的地位不知道您有沒有注意到上週是次長\n\n13:23.332 --> 13:39.253\n來這個會議當中,次長回應說,臺灣臺語是國家語言之一,地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬族語、臺灣手語等一樣,並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思,那麼很加諱次長,但問題是,\n\n13:41.133 --> 14:04.149\n從其他族群的角度來看,這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎?定定國家語言政策的初衷,如您所講的,本來就是要傳承跟保護濱維或者是台灣多元的語言文化,但是台灣台語的推動,您真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎?為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前,您最近在舉辦10月13日剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的11場論文時,\n\n14:10.794 --> 14:17.940\n文化部就直接關上了臺灣、臺語這個名詞,形成了全民共識了嗎?\n\n14:17.940 --> 14:19.582\n這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?\n\n14:32.179 --> 14:32.539\n好,文化部\n\n14:58.359 --> 15:25.380\n您可以讓各族群再充分討論、再推動這個政策嗎?部長,臺灣台語政策的推動必須要在全民共識上,不能忽略其他族群的感受,包括本席作為一個原住民。政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策,避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席提醒文化,\n\n15:26.451 --> 15:30.376\n院長,只有在沒有包容的文化政策上,會是另外一種壓迫。\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.428,"end":11.608,"text":"林委員好"},{"start":28.166,"end":47.123,"text":"今天本席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題來跟您做一些探討。因為這些政策不僅影響聲援,還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展,族群和諧,設置攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任。"},{"start":48.257,"end":66.832,"text":"每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史,是否能夠真正實現轉型正義,並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值。我在這邊逐一質詢,那麼希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。"},{"start":69.923,"end":94.158,"text":"那麼首先呢,在針對院長您上週在對高金素美委員質詢時提出的一個回應,本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢淨法政策的時候,您回應他說,共產黨的話是您的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異,我相信也震驚了不少人。"},{"start":95.472,"end":117.608,"text":"包括本席在內,覺得院長的回應有一點帶呼輕視,還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解真正原住民的困境和訴求。這句話不僅是對高金素美委員個人的冒犯,它更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望,包括本席。"},{"start":118.857,"end":145.129,"text":"原住民的問題從來都不是只是單純的環保問題,它涉及土地、文化認同還有基本生存權。 原住民族基本法也有規定,政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化生活方式,而高金委員所反映的不是只有他自己的意見,而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁法政策的憂心。"},{"start":146.73,"end":170.372,"text":"這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號所以院長您這番言論暴露出我們政治我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法的思維您只碰到只要凡是有不同的聲音就視為是對立這種敵我思維不僅讓政策推不動還限縮了公共討論的空間"},{"start":172.442,"end":198.546,"text":"這樣子的做法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋樑的一個角色原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題還加深了一些傷口"},{"start":203.271,"end":221.883,"text":"高經委員的質詢不是只有他個人的呼籲,而且還是代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對,那麼轉型正義還能夠落實嗎?本席在這邊。"},{"start":223.206,"end":247.141,"text":"要求院長向高金委員正式的公開道歉。 這不僅是對他個人的尊重,那更是對所有原住民族的尊重。 您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族甚至其他族群的訴求。 院長,請您正視這些訴求,"},{"start":249.07,"end":249.51,"text":"我可以公開說明"},{"start":268.427,"end":279.11,"text":"我講了這句話之後,後面那句話是什麼?我跟高軍委員說,你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務,你的全國人民不只有原住民。"},{"start":280.015,"end":302.726,"text":"請要聽懂這一句話。 是,院長,但是您可能忘了,高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲,那麼為全國人民服務,甚至為人民服務,應該是大家一起來做的事情,也很重要的是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。我也必須把人民擺在第一啊,但我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看。"},{"start":308.288,"end":322.9,"text":"是不是我必須這樣來做每個委員都有他的選區也都有他的支持者他的主權他可以從他的利益出發但必須衡量到全國的橫平性如果一個領域一個族群"},{"start":324.896,"end":344.956,"text":"市長,許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列,我想這是行政院很重要的專業。那當然我們知道您在這行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編組"},{"start":347.518,"end":365.535,"text":"你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足,這點我更是反對,但是這個是編列的專業。我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是,您看待這件事情的心態,還有原住民堅持的核心價值。"},{"start":366.596,"end":373.721,"text":"只要請委員看一下憲法70條,立法院對行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。"},{"start":397.276,"end":426.102,"text":"謝謝院長,謝謝。請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。我已經公開說明了。好,那接下來我們請文化部李部長。麻煩請文化部長備選。好,部長謝謝您。好,院長、部長,接下來本席想請問一下,部長你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館,您所了解的人權博物館。"},{"start":427.731,"end":455.393,"text":"我所了解的人權博物館,原來它是一個在景美的一個看守所,那後來把它改建成人權園區,然後保留了所有當時的狀態,然後裡面也做了...謝謝部長,那您有去看過嗎?您有去過人權博物館嗎?我不但有去,我還帶學生去做田野調查,然後請他們...好的,謝謝,那你應該知道本席接下來要講的東西,那麼人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要一個機構,您認同嗎?"},{"start":458.055,"end":476.564,"text":"所以在人權博物館,理應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題。但是我們常看到的,如果您也常去,大部分的策展,本席所看到的,都是集中在白色恐怖時期,對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。"},{"start":477.584,"end":504.718,"text":"根據國家人權博物館的組織法博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展所以我們來看一下這個數據這是人權博物館的數據在策展方面其實有點相當失衡33個從你們開館到現在的展覽有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題佔比已經大約快70%了那個時期的壓迫和不公"},{"start":506.298,"end":533.433,"text":"當然是重要的,但是在日治時期對原住民族、敏克族群殖民士的壓迫,那麼以日本人對原住民還有敏克的壓迫為例,五年李凡計劃所造成的歷史傷痛,也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中,79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關,佔比已經差不多70%了。"},{"start":534.694,"end":549.857,"text":"所以在這個展示當中是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候長期存在了偏見難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢另外在不義遺址"},{"start":550.518,"end":578.273,"text":"的定義上也犯了一樣的錯誤考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗甚至現在可能都也有我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤這樣子的展示不僅是會喪失歷史的全面性而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史"},{"start":579.229,"end":594.879,"text":"我期待這樣一個展示在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討將不同的時期不同的階段並用不同的視角多重的視角來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史"},{"start":596.305,"end":604.11,"text":"我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤。所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應,我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作,讓轉型正義的目的,是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解。"},{"start":622.318,"end":634.513,"text":"因為許多研究顯示,現階段,許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高。 民眾不信任促轉會,民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助。"},{"start":635.612,"end":656.063,"text":"民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群"},{"start":659.965,"end":677.234,"text":"我希望我們人權博物館跳脫您剛才講的那個問題,可以盡到所有的人權。但是白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群。白色恐怖被壓迫的是各種族群。所以接下來我們來探討一個問題,因為院長就沒機會講話了。但是我們來探討一個問題,您每次講話都讓我非常的感動。"},{"start":682.116,"end":699.064,"text":"但是我所看到您的作為都讓我非常的疑問。來,5月22號在我們的教育文化委員會當時您剛上任。中正紀念壇轉型有許多委員提出了問題,所以您說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。"},{"start":700.144,"end":718.601,"text":"當時有人問到你有關於一對的在堂體跟戶外。 您說到一對不應該是政權轉換的工具。 您當時也在徵求各界來對未來的想像有所討論。 但是讓我很難理解的是一個月後您的態度突然轉變。 突然間"},{"start":722.179,"end":742.711,"text":"一、對就被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。那我不知道在這個過程當中包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論。所以您當時講的話其實讓我非常感動,非常的人性化。但是您做的,我們看到的這個回應,實時的作為是讓我們非常疑問。"},{"start":745.151,"end":771.559,"text":"中正紀念堂的轉席一對一出堂體有全民共識嗎?為什麼您的態度在這麼短時間就轉變了?這樣的轉變有基於充分的討論嗎?還是有其他政治性的考量?所以這個部分本席提醒您在您剛才講人權博物館的未來的同時希望您能夠言行合一最後我們還是探討一個文化政策的議題"},{"start":773.766,"end":801.233,"text":"臺灣臺語政策我想您應該知道這個政策一推出引發了不小反彈在上週的內政委員會您知道多少委員針對這個定義還有這個議題提出了很多看法好幾位委員質疑臺灣臺語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義這個名詞有沒有侵犯其他語言的地位不知道您有沒有注意到上週是次長"},{"start":803.332,"end":819.253,"text":"來這個會議當中,次長回應說,臺灣臺語是國家語言之一,地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬族語、臺灣手語等一樣,並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思,那麼很加諱次長,但問題是,"},{"start":821.133,"end":844.149,"text":"從其他族群的角度來看,這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎?定定國家語言政策的初衷,如您所講的,本來就是要傳承跟保護濱維或者是台灣多元的語言文化,但是台灣台語的推動,您真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎?為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前,您最近在舉辦10月13日剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的11場論文時,"},{"start":850.794,"end":857.94,"text":"文化部就直接關上了臺灣、臺語這個名詞,形成了全民共識了嗎?"},{"start":857.94,"end":859.582,"text":"這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?"},{"start":872.179,"end":872.539,"text":"好,文化部"},{"start":898.359,"end":925.38,"text":"您可以讓各族群再充分討論、再推動這個政策嗎?部長,臺灣台語政策的推動必須要在全民共識上,不能忽略其他族群的感受,包括本席作為一個原住民。政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策,避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席提醒文化,"},{"start":926.451,"end":930.376,"text":"院長,只有在沒有包容的文化政策上,會是另外一種壓迫。"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:19:42 - 15:35:26","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":155485,"gazette":{"lineno":139,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（15時19分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：院長好。今天本席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題來跟您做一些探討，因為這些政策不僅影響深遠，還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展、族群和諧，甚至攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任，每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史，是否能夠真正實踐轉型正義，並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值，我在這邊逐一質詢希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝，請委員指教。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，首先針對院長上週在面對高金素梅委員質詢時提出的一個回應，本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢禁伐政策的時候，您回應他說，共產黨的話是你的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異，我相信也震驚了不少人，包括本席在內，覺得院長的回應有一點怠忽輕視，還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解原住民真正的困境和訴求。","這句話不僅是對高金素梅委員個人的冒犯，更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望，包括本席。原住民的問題從來都不只是單純的環保問題，還涉及土地、文化認同，還有基本生存權。原住民族基本法也有規定，政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化、生活方式，而高金委員所反應的不是只有他自己的意見，而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁伐政策的憂心，這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號。所以院長，您這番言論曝露出我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法思維。您凡事碰到不同的聲音，就視為是對立，這種敵我思維，不僅讓政策推不動，還限縮了公共討論的空間。這樣子的作法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響，也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋梁的一個角色。","原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視，而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中。上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題，還加深了一些傷口。高金委員的質詢，不是只有他個人的呼籲，還代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對，那轉型正義還能夠落實嗎？","本席在這邊要求院長，向高金委員正式的公開道歉，這不僅是對他個人的尊重，更是對所有原住民族的尊重。您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族，甚至是其他族群的訴求。院長，請您正視這些訴求，中華民國是民主國家，我們應該注重文化的多樣性跟族群之間的平衡，面對族群議題的時候，我們不能以霸道、唯我獨尊的心態去看待。院長，您的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以公開說明，我講了這句話之後後面那句話是什麼？我跟高金委員說，你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務，你的全國人民不是只有原住民，請他聽懂這句話。"],["林委員倩綺：院長，但是您可能忘了，高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，他的全國……"],["林委員倩綺：為全國人民服務，甚至為人民服務，應該是大家一起來做的事情。很重要的是，這也是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也必須把人民擺在第一，但我必須把全國人民……"],["林委員倩綺：是、是、是，原住民也是人民，所有的族群都是人民。"],["卓院長榮泰：我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看，是不是？我必須這樣來做。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，我們沒有反對……"],["卓院長榮泰：每個委員都有他的選區，也都有他的支持者、他的族群，他可以從他的利益出發，但必須衡量到全國的衡平性，如果一個領域、一個族群的預算可以這樣來編列增加，那對其他的族群來講，就是另外一種比較上的不公平，不是嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：院長，許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列，我想這是行政院很重要的專業，當然我們知道，您在行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編足，你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足，這點我更是反對……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是重點、這不是重點。"],["林委員倩綺：但是這個是編列的專業，我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是您看待這件事情的心態，還有原住民堅持的核心價值。"],["卓院長榮泰：要請委員看一下憲法第七十條，立法院對於行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝院長提出憲法，但是這件事情我們是依法行政，我們尊重行政院的專業，行政院應該在依法行政上，用你們的專業將這件事情給弭平……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院是憲政機關，行政院和立法院都是憲政機關……"],["林委員倩綺：我們期待未來兩天的朝野協商，能夠有好的結果，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都必須依憲法而行使我們的職權。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝院長，謝謝，請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經公開說明了。"],["林委員倩綺：好，接下來我們請文化部李部長。"],["主席：麻煩請文化部長備詢。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，謝謝您。院長與部長，接下來本席想請問一下，部長，你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館？即您所了解的人權博物館？"],["李部長遠：我所了解的人權博物館原來它是一個在景美的看守所，後來把它改建成人權園區，保留了所有當時的狀態，然後裡面也做了……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長，那您有去看過嗎？您有去過人權博物館嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不但有去，我還帶學生去做田野調查，然後……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝，那您應該知道本席接下來講的東西，人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要的一個機構，您認同吧？"],["李部長遠：當然認同，但是我的……"],["林委員倩綺：所以在人權博物館，你應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題，但是我們常看到的，如果您也常去，本席所看到大部分的策展都是集中在白色恐怖時期，對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。根據國家人權博物館的組織法，博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展，所以我們來看一下這個數據，這是人權博物館的數據，在策展方面其實相當失衡，33個從你們開館到現在的展覽，有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題，占比已經大約快70%了，那個時期的壓迫和不公當然是重要的，但是在日治時期對原住民族、閩客族群殖民式的壓迫，以日本人對原住民還有閩客的壓迫為例，五年理蕃計畫所造成的歷史傷痛，也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中，79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關，占比已經差不多70%了，所以在這個展示當中，是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候，長期存在了偏見？難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎？那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢？","另外，在不義遺址的定義上，也犯了一樣的錯誤，考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗，甚至現在可能都也有，我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件，而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤，這樣子的展示不僅會喪失歷史的全面性，而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史，那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史，我期待這樣一個展示，在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討，將不同的時期、不同的階段，並用不同的視角、多重的視角，來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史，我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤……"],["李部長遠：我可不可以回答？我可不可以回答一下？我可不可以回答？"],["林委員倩綺：待會兒會讓你回答，請讓我講完最後這一段，所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應，我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作，讓轉型正義的目的是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解？許多研究顯示，現階段許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高，你們可以看一下，民眾不信任促轉會、民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助、民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭，這是一個研究報告，所以可不可以簡單回應……"],["李部長遠：委員，我可以……"],["林委員倩綺：未來在展示的內容上，可不可以多加考量？"],["李部長遠：我很想回答，因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦一個人權電影展，人權電影展裡面就是講族群、性別等的各種展覽，我們希望人權博物館跳脫你剛才講的那個問題，可以進到所有的人權，但白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝部長，我很高興你講這樣的話……"],["李部長遠：白色恐怖被壓迫的是不同族群，所以……"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我們來探討一個問題，不然院長可能就沒機會講話了，我們來探討一個問題。你每次講話都讓我非常的感動，但是我所看到你的作為，卻讓我非常的疑問。5月22號在教育及文化委員會備詢，當時你剛上任，有關中正紀念堂的轉型，有許多委員提出問題，你說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。當時有人問你有關儀隊在堂體和戶外的操演，你說儀隊不應該是政權轉換的工具，你會徵求各界意見，針對未來的想像有所討論。但是讓我很難理解的是，一個月後，你的態度突然轉變，突然間儀隊被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。在這個過程當中，包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論，所以你當時講的話其實是讓我非常感動，因為非常人性化，但是你做的、我們看到的回應、實質的作為，卻讓我們非常疑問。中正紀念堂的轉型、儀隊移出堂體，有全民共識嗎？為什麼你的態度在這麼短期間就轉變了？這樣的轉變，有基於充分的討論嗎？還是有其他政治性的考量？"],["李部長遠：我可不可以答？"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分，本席提醒你，針對你剛才提到人權博物館未來的同時，希望你能夠言行合一。","最後，我們還要探討一個文化政策的議題──臺灣台語政策，我想你應該知道，這個政策一推出，引發了不小反彈，在上週的內政委員會，你知道有多少委員針對這個定義還有議題提出了看法？好幾位委員質疑臺灣台語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義？這個名詞有沒有侵犯到其他語言的地位？不知道你有沒有注意到？上週是次長列席這個會議，次長回應說，臺灣台語是國家語言之一，地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬祖語、臺灣手語等一樣，並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思，很嘉惠次長，但問題是，從其他族群的角度來看，這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎？訂定國家語言政策的初衷如你所講的，本來就是要傳承跟保護瀕危或者是臺灣多元的語言文化，但是臺灣台語的推動，你真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎？為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前，你在最近舉辦、10月13號剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的十一場分區論壇中，文化部就直接冠上了臺灣台語這個名詞？形成全民共識了嗎？這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢？還有教育部鄭部長，麻煩一下。"],["主席：麻煩請教育部長備詢。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝！你是在湊什麼熱鬧？你們把閩南語語言能力認證考試規費收費標準，沒有經過討論，就改成臺灣台語語言能力認證考試規費收費標準，這樣的改名，引發好多老師的爭議，拜託教育部，現在問題還沒有解決，不要再來湊熱鬧了，好不好？","文化部，你可以讓各族群再充分討論，再推動這個政策嗎？部長，臺灣台語政策的推動，必須要在全民共識上，不能忽略其他族群的感受，包括本席作為一個原住民。","最後本席要呼籲政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策，避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席要提醒院長，只有在沒有包容的文化政策上會是另外一種壓迫，只有走不出歷史的人才會在文化威權中療傷。"],["卓院長榮泰：這句話很好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第11號吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}}