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00:01:24,756\n那這個我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性但是可以考評估不過呢光是本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景台澎海纜在18年前規劃2005年我們的海纜長度是58.8公里陸纜是9.1這樣的預算157.3億耗時13年\n\n5\n00:01:35,700 --> 00:02:02,026\n那菲律賓到台灣300公里距比海澎海南我只講海南就要多5倍那這興建到底還要多久那這個發會沒有千億以上是不可能的所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景好那接下來本期再議的就是今天的主題我們石化工業新世青真的要南遷呂宋島嗎部長\n\n6\n00:02:05,174 --> 00:02:19,059\n請回應報告委員這些都是一些假設的這個討論假設那我一樣要問是國部長您的命題經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題現在這個還是停留在討論的階段\n\n7\n00:02:20,619 --> 00:02:37,407\n是在經濟部內部討論嗎我們現在因為這個綠能的部分是屬於全球大家我只講石化業我不講這個綠能部分這是剛才的第一題現在我進入到第二組是報告委員因為這個石化業也是用電非常重的一個產業\n\n8\n00:02:38,807 --> 00:02:55,985\n我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業而且不是只有看台灣這個市場所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力我們必須要讓他的這個各方面的這個材料成本還有這個\n\n9\n00:02:59,048 --> 00:03:25,609\n那部長您針對您這樣的說法是要把新世青整個移到改投資建設聽好喔是改投資並建設於呂宋島改投資建設的意思我新世青是核定1068億整個移到呂宋島建設什麼叫改建設就是整個連根拔起所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島嗎\n\n10\n00:03:26,770 --> 00:03:29,653\n所以這是改投資建設呂宋島這是你們的這樣的一個規劃嗎討論嗎\n\n11\n00:03:35,524 --> 00:04:00,544\n報告委員我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚那我接了這個新世青的這個案子以後我們要考慮了這樣的一個投資成本下去他有沒有辦法快速的回收市場是不是具有競爭力我可能背景您不清楚我就講給你聽中油世青它不像台塑是僅供應我集團內的石化劣節\n\n12\n00:04:01,244 --> 00:04:14,471\n事件是肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠近40年他扛起了國內石化業的基礎不可諱言他的設備確實是老了所以新事件的規劃自拍板定案部長8年預算從因為拖延從823億延至1062億\n\n13\n00:04:21,694 --> 00:04:44,409\n這就是背景好在第二個背景呢在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一週本席不斷的催促行政院終於核定了低碳減排環保智慧化這個智慧化是要減少公安事件的新事情這就是所謂的新事情低碳減排環保智慧化的管理減少公安\n\n14\n00:04:44,969 --> 00:05:00,896\n曾熙本席還用送高雄一份大禮向陳建仁院長來做感謝所以部長您這邊講的是要讓我們新世親請你再講清楚因為我們現在全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場\n\n15\n00:05:02,496 --> 00:05:16,867\n這個實在是太震撼了我只能用震撼兩個字您要是否把這個新世紀所謂的有競爭力是改投資建設整個一道呂宋島嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:18,856 --> 00:05:35,453\n報告委員是不是移到哪一個地方我想這個都是在所以你確定要移新世青要不要建新世青要不要建這個我想這個必須是整個的確定那已經確定了他當然就是要建\n\n17\n00:05:36,654 --> 00:05:53,224\n但是問題是建在哪裡我認為有討論的必要因為這個裡面這個企業投資了1000多億如果他沒有市場如果他沒有辦法這個payback我認為這個投資我必須要再檢討\n\n18\n00:05:54,805 --> 00:05:57,848\n部長這個投資在哪裡來全部都在國內本席爬書給你看石化工業雖然狹義我就救石化工業他的狹義占不到2%的國民生產毛利沒有錯但是他的覆蓋力是百工百業傳統產業來講他覆蓋哪裡請看下表\n\n19\n00:06:13,542 --> 00:06:42,358\n有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、燃燒纖維、氣合劑我們每天家裡的裝潢都要氣合劑、溶藥都要石化液這都傳統產業好半導體的原物料6成就是裡面的材料6成來自石化液你電子當中的特用氣體、光眼膜等這有6成半導體的6成所以說假設你今天是\n\n20\n00:06:43,038 --> 00:06:43,058\n全臺灣\n\n21\n00:07:08,025 --> 00:07:31,921\n實化業中上下游的牽動的就業人口有幾萬我高雄市的就業人口的實化業的就業人口有多少10萬嘛是不是10萬部長來我就以報派就好這個台灣實化產業中下游這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的牽動就業人口全台灣45萬\n\n22\n00:07:33,422 --> 00:08:00,154\n在高雄我就以氣爆案當中當時有一個報導說我如果關閉所有的管線我直接影響就只有直接影響我石化業高雄就有2.6萬在但是有估計向後連鎖反應會有大概兩倍所以我的就業人口在高雄就會5萬這種是狹隘的石化產業我不講我靠石化產業周邊的所有的外包工程\n\n23\n00:08:01,474 --> 00:08:26,679\n好部長這個可嚴肅了那你的石化產業再來講喔如果你認為整個石化產業新世青他要放在哪裡你要演繹新世青確定要做但要演繹我看不出你在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做當時我們也因應石化的我們中油的這個石化產業的高石化來看一下經濟部啊在我們高雄\n\n24\n00:08:27,099 --> 00:08:45,109\n因為要高質化所以呢新材料循環產業援軍升級的設置計畫他是跟我大林埔千村安置計畫書這件事情是不是要停板因為沒有高質化啦沒有什麼高質化因為你的新世親既然要延宕現在拍板定案而且部長這個是行政院拍板定案的案子\n\n25\n00:08:49,611 --> 00:09:08,650\n您說要放到哪裡這要研議這是您部長的意思經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢報告委員我想這個是這樣子就是說這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的\n\n26\n00:09:10,251 --> 00:09:15,413\n如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的誰說不能賺錢啊部長剛才我已經爬輸了整個那也就是說光是你要讓石化業他認為不賺錢所以我所有百工百業半導體業的石化原料我的這個所有傳統產業的全部都在進口嗎報告委員那個是中下游我們現在談的這個新資金是上游\n\n27\n00:09:35,058 --> 00:09:58,809\n報告部長我們所有石化業全部都是內銷我們只有那個柴油少小的柴油外銷那個量太大全部都內銷部長很明顯你對石化產業完全完全是狀況外的我跟委員報告你現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有7大石化產業你講到中國你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠\n\n28\n00:10:03,274 --> 00:10:04,698\n中國現在有7個石化廠\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3103\t30335\t有請部長請郭部長郭部長剛才台電董事長他說穩定供電是台電公司責無旁貸的使命台電公司需要社會各界共同支持電力建設那這個電力建設是包含要把要在呂宋島菲律密宋島建電廠嗎\n33029\t34751\t所以這是郭部長的命題還是經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題\n46194\t66869\t報告委員這個是我在這個十百名夫的這個他的論壇上面我們大概有很多的這個學者專家那麼他們討論出來因為這個綠能的部分所以這是郭部長跟學者專家的命題還不是經濟部的命題是好\n68030\t84756\t那這個我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性但是可以考評估不過呢光是本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景台澎海纜在18年前規劃2005年我們的海纜長度是58.8公里陸纜是9.1這樣的預算157.3億耗時13年\n95700\t122026\t那菲律賓到台灣300公里 距比海澎海南我只講海南 就要多5倍那這興建到底還要多久那這個發會沒有千億以上是不可能的所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景好那接下來本期再議的就是今天的主題我們石化工業新世青真的要南遷呂宋島嗎 部長\n125174\t139059\t請回應報告委員這些都是一些假設的這個討論假設那我一樣要問是國部長您的命題經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題現在這個還是停留在討論的階段\n140619\t157407\t是在經濟部內部討論嗎我們現在因為這個綠能的部分是屬於全球大家我只講石化業我不講這個綠能部分這是剛才的第一題現在我進入到第二組是報告委員因為這個石化業也是用電非常重的一個產業\n158807\t175985\t我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業而且不是只有看台灣這個市場所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力我們必須要讓他的這個各方面的這個材料成本還有這個\n179048\t205609\t那部長您針對您這樣的說法是要把新世青整個移到改投資建設聽好喔是改投資並建設於呂宋島改投資建設的意思我新世青是核定1068億整個移到呂宋島建設什麼叫改建設就是整個連根拔起所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島嗎\n206770\t209653\t所以這是改投資建設呂宋島這是你們的這樣的一個規劃嗎 討論嗎\n215524\t240544\t報告委員我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚那我接了這個新世青的這個案子以後我們要考慮了這樣的一個投資成本下去他有沒有辦法快速的回收市場是不是具有競爭力我可能背景您不清楚我就講給你聽中油世青它不像台塑是僅供應我集團內的石化劣節\n241244\t254471\t事件是肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠近40年他扛起了國內石化業的基礎不可諱言他的設備確實是老了所以新事件的規劃自拍板定案部長8年預算從因為拖延從823億延至1062億\n261694\t284409\t這就是背景好在第二個背景呢在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一週本席不斷的催促行政院終於核定了低碳減排環保智慧化這個智慧化是要減少公安事件的新事情這就是所謂的新事情低碳減排環保智慧化的管理減少公安\n284969\t300896\t曾熙本席還用送高雄一份大禮向陳建仁院長來做感謝所以部長您這邊講的是要讓我們新世親請你再講清楚因為我們現在全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場\n302496\t316867\t這個實在是太震撼了我只能用震撼兩個字您要是否把這個新世紀所謂的有競爭力是改投資建設整個一道呂宋島嗎?\n318856\t335453\t報告委員是不是移到哪一個地方我想這個都是在所以你確定要移新世青要不要建新世青要不要建這個我想這個必須是整個的確定那已經確定了他當然就是要建\n336654\t353224\t但是問題是建在哪裡我認為有討論的必要因為這個裡面這個企業投資了1000多億如果他沒有市場如果他沒有辦法這個payback我認為這個投資我必須要再檢討\n354805\t357848\t部長 這個投資在哪裡來 全部都在國內本席爬書給你看石化工業雖然狹義 我就救石化工業他的狹義占不到2%的國民生產毛利 沒有錯但是他的覆蓋力是百工百業傳統產業來講 他覆蓋哪裡 請看下表\n373542\t402358\t有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、燃燒纖維、氣合劑我們每天家裡的裝潢都要氣合劑、溶藥都要石化液這都傳統產業好 半導體的原物料6成就是裡面的材料6成來自石化液你電子當中的特用氣體、光眼膜等這有6成半導體的6成 所以說假設你今天是\n403038\t403058\t全臺灣\n428025\t451921\t實化業中上下游的牽動的就業人口有幾萬我高雄市的就業人口的實化業的就業人口有多少10萬嘛是不是10萬部長來我就以報派就好這個台灣實化產業中下游這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的牽動就業人口全台灣45萬\n453422\t480154\t在高雄我就以氣爆案當中當時有一個報導說我如果關閉所有的管線我直接影響就只有直接影響我石化業高雄就有2.6萬在但是有估計向後連鎖反應會有大概兩倍所以我的就業人口在高雄就會5萬這種是狹隘的石化產業我不講我靠石化產業周邊的所有的外包工程\n481474\t506679\t好部長這個可嚴肅了那你的石化產業再來講喔如果你認為整個石化產業新世青他要放在哪裡你要演繹新世青確定要做但要演繹我看不出你在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做當時我們也因應石化的我們中油的這個石化產業的高石化來看一下經濟部啊在我們高雄\n507099\t525109\t因為要高質化所以呢新材料循環產業援軍升級的設置計畫他是跟我大林埔千村安置計畫書這件事情是不是要停板因為沒有高質化啦沒有什麼高質化因為你的新世親既然要延宕現在拍板定案而且部長這個是行政院拍板定案的案子\n529611\t548650\t您說要放到哪裡這要研議這是您部長的意思經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢報告委員我想這個是這樣子就是說這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的\n550251\t555413\t如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的誰說不能賺錢啊部長剛才我已經爬輸了整個那也就是說光是你要讓石化業他認為不賺錢所以我所有百工百業半導體業的石化原料我的這個所有傳統產業的全部都在進口嗎報告委員那個是中下游我們現在談的這個新資金是上游\n575058\t598809\t報告部長我們所有石化業全部都是內銷我們只有那個柴油少小的柴油外銷那個量太大全部都內銷部長很明顯你對石化產業完全完全是狀況外的我跟委員報告你現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有7大石化產業你講到中國你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠\n603274\t604698\t中國現在有7個石化廠\n","txt":"有請部長請郭部長郭部長剛才台電董事長他說穩定供電是台電公司責無旁貸的使命台電公司需要社會各界共同支持電力建設那這個電力建設是包含要把要在呂宋島菲律密宋島建電廠嗎\n所以這是郭部長的命題還是經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題\n報告委員這個是我在這個十百名夫的這個他的論壇上面我們大概有很多的這個學者專家那麼他們討論出來因為這個綠能的部分所以這是郭部長跟學者專家的命題還不是經濟部的命題是好\n那這個我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性但是可以考評估不過呢光是本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景台澎海纜在18年前規劃2005年我們的海纜長度是58.8公里陸纜是9.1這樣的預算157.3億耗時13年\n那菲律賓到台灣300公里 距比海澎海南我只講海南 就要多5倍那這興建到底還要多久那這個發會沒有千億以上是不可能的所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景好那接下來本期再議的就是今天的主題我們石化工業新世青真的要南遷呂宋島嗎 部長\n請回應報告委員這些都是一些假設的這個討論假設那我一樣要問是國部長您的命題經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題現在這個還是停留在討論的階段\n是在經濟部內部討論嗎我們現在因為這個綠能的部分是屬於全球大家我只講石化業我不講這個綠能部分這是剛才的第一題現在我進入到第二組是報告委員因為這個石化業也是用電非常重的一個產業\n我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業而且不是只有看台灣這個市場所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力我們必須要讓他的這個各方面的這個材料成本還有這個\n那部長您針對您這樣的說法是要把新世青整個移到改投資建設聽好喔是改投資並建設於呂宋島改投資建設的意思我新世青是核定1068億整個移到呂宋島建設什麼叫改建設就是整個連根拔起所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島嗎\n所以這是改投資建設呂宋島這是你們的這樣的一個規劃嗎 討論嗎\n報告委員我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚那我接了這個新世青的這個案子以後我們要考慮了這樣的一個投資成本下去他有沒有辦法快速的回收市場是不是具有競爭力我可能背景您不清楚我就講給你聽中油世青它不像台塑是僅供應我集團內的石化劣節\n事件是肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠近40年他扛起了國內石化業的基礎不可諱言他的設備確實是老了所以新事件的規劃自拍板定案部長8年預算從因為拖延從823億延至1062億\n這就是背景好在第二個背景呢在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一週本席不斷的催促行政院終於核定了低碳減排環保智慧化這個智慧化是要減少公安事件的新事情這就是所謂的新事情低碳減排環保智慧化的管理減少公安\n曾熙本席還用送高雄一份大禮向陳建仁院長來做感謝所以部長您這邊講的是要讓我們新世親請你再講清楚因為我們現在全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場\n這個實在是太震撼了我只能用震撼兩個字您要是否把這個新世紀所謂的有競爭力是改投資建設整個一道呂宋島嗎?\n報告委員是不是移到哪一個地方我想這個都是在所以你確定要移新世青要不要建新世青要不要建這個我想這個必須是整個的確定那已經確定了他當然就是要建\n但是問題是建在哪裡我認為有討論的必要因為這個裡面這個企業投資了1000多億如果他沒有市場如果他沒有辦法這個payback我認為這個投資我必須要再檢討\n部長 這個投資在哪裡來 全部都在國內本席爬書給你看石化工業雖然狹義 我就救石化工業他的狹義占不到2%的國民生產毛利 沒有錯但是他的覆蓋力是百工百業傳統產業來講 他覆蓋哪裡 請看下表\n有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、燃燒纖維、氣合劑我們每天家裡的裝潢都要氣合劑、溶藥都要石化液這都傳統產業好 半導體的原物料6成就是裡面的材料6成來自石化液你電子當中的特用氣體、光眼膜等這有6成半導體的6成 所以說假設你今天是\n全臺灣\n實化業中上下游的牽動的就業人口有幾萬我高雄市的就業人口的實化業的就業人口有多少10萬嘛是不是10萬部長來我就以報派就好這個台灣實化產業中下游這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的牽動就業人口全台灣45萬\n在高雄我就以氣爆案當中當時有一個報導說我如果關閉所有的管線我直接影響就只有直接影響我石化業高雄就有2.6萬在但是有估計向後連鎖反應會有大概兩倍所以我的就業人口在高雄就會5萬這種是狹隘的石化產業我不講我靠石化產業周邊的所有的外包工程\n好部長這個可嚴肅了那你的石化產業再來講喔如果你認為整個石化產業新世青他要放在哪裡你要演繹新世青確定要做但要演繹我看不出你在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做當時我們也因應石化的我們中油的這個石化產業的高石化來看一下經濟部啊在我們高雄\n因為要高質化所以呢新材料循環產業援軍升級的設置計畫他是跟我大林埔千村安置計畫書這件事情是不是要停板因為沒有高質化啦沒有什麼高質化因為你的新世親既然要延宕現在拍板定案而且部長這個是行政院拍板定案的案子\n您說要放到哪裡這要研議這是您部長的意思經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢報告委員我想這個是這樣子就是說這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的\n如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的誰說不能賺錢啊部長剛才我已經爬輸了整個那也就是說光是你要讓石化業他認為不賺錢所以我所有百工百業半導體業的石化原料我的這個所有傳統產業的全部都在進口嗎報告委員那個是中下游我們現在談的這個新資金是上游\n報告部長我們所有石化業全部都是內銷我們只有那個柴油少小的柴油外銷那個量太大全部都內銷部長很明顯你對石化產業完全完全是狀況外的我跟委員報告你現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有7大石化產業你講到中國你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠\n中國現在有7個石化廠\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.103 --> 00:30.335\n有請部長請郭部長郭部長剛才台電董事長他說穩定供電是台電公司責無旁貸的使命台電公司需要社會各界共同支持電力建設那這個電力建設是包含要把要在呂宋島菲律密宋島建電廠嗎\n\n00:33.029 --> 00:34.751\n所以這是郭部長的命題還是經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題\n\n00:46.194 --> 01:06.869\n報告委員這個是我在這個十百名夫的這個他的論壇上面我們大概有很多的這個學者專家那麼他們討論出來因為這個綠能的部分所以這是郭部長跟學者專家的命題還不是經濟部的命題是好\n\n01:08.030 --> 01:24.756\n那這個我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性但是可以考評估不過呢光是本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景台澎海纜在18年前規劃2005年我們的海纜長度是58.8公里陸纜是9.1這樣的預算157.3億耗時13年\n\n01:35.700 --> 02:02.026\n那菲律賓到台灣300公里距比海澎海南我只講海南就要多5倍那這興建到底還要多久那這個發會沒有千億以上是不可能的所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景好那接下來本期再議的就是今天的主題我們石化工業新世青真的要南遷呂宋島嗎部長\n\n02:05.174 --> 02:19.059\n請回應報告委員這些都是一些假設的這個討論假設那我一樣要問是國部長您的命題經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題現在這個還是停留在討論的階段\n\n02:20.619 --> 02:37.407\n是在經濟部內部討論嗎我們現在因為這個綠能的部分是屬於全球大家我只講石化業我不講這個綠能部分這是剛才的第一題現在我進入到第二組是報告委員因為這個石化業也是用電非常重的一個產業\n\n02:38.807 --> 02:55.985\n我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業而且不是只有看台灣這個市場所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力我們必須要讓他的這個各方面的這個材料成本還有這個\n\n02:59.048 --> 03:25.609\n那部長您針對您這樣的說法是要把新世青整個移到改投資建設聽好喔是改投資並建設於呂宋島改投資建設的意思我新世青是核定1068億整個移到呂宋島建設什麼叫改建設就是整個連根拔起所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島嗎\n\n03:26.770 --> 03:29.653\n所以這是改投資建設呂宋島這是你們的這樣的一個規劃嗎討論嗎\n\n03:35.524 --> 04:00.544\n報告委員我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚那我接了這個新世青的這個案子以後我們要考慮了這樣的一個投資成本下去他有沒有辦法快速的回收市場是不是具有競爭力我可能背景您不清楚我就講給你聽中油世青它不像台塑是僅供應我集團內的石化劣節\n\n04:01.244 --> 04:14.471\n事件是肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠近40年他扛起了國內石化業的基礎不可諱言他的設備確實是老了所以新事件的規劃自拍板定案部長8年預算從因為拖延從823億延至1062億\n\n04:21.694 --> 04:44.409\n這就是背景好在第二個背景呢在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一週本席不斷的催促行政院終於核定了低碳減排環保智慧化這個智慧化是要減少公安事件的新事情這就是所謂的新事情低碳減排環保智慧化的管理減少公安\n\n04:44.969 --> 05:00.896\n曾熙本席還用送高雄一份大禮向陳建仁院長來做感謝所以部長您這邊講的是要讓我們新世親請你再講清楚因為我們現在全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場\n\n05:02.496 --> 05:16.867\n這個實在是太震撼了我只能用震撼兩個字您要是否把這個新世紀所謂的有競爭力是改投資建設整個一道呂宋島嗎?\n\n05:18.856 --> 05:35.453\n報告委員是不是移到哪一個地方我想這個都是在所以你確定要移新世青要不要建新世青要不要建這個我想這個必須是整個的確定那已經確定了他當然就是要建\n\n05:36.654 --> 05:53.224\n但是問題是建在哪裡我認為有討論的必要因為這個裡面這個企業投資了1000多億如果他沒有市場如果他沒有辦法這個payback我認為這個投資我必須要再檢討\n\n05:54.805 --> 05:57.848\n部長這個投資在哪裡來全部都在國內本席爬書給你看石化工業雖然狹義我就救石化工業他的狹義占不到2%的國民生產毛利沒有錯但是他的覆蓋力是百工百業傳統產業來講他覆蓋哪裡請看下表\n\n06:13.542 --> 06:42.358\n有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、燃燒纖維、氣合劑我們每天家裡的裝潢都要氣合劑、溶藥都要石化液這都傳統產業好半導體的原物料6成就是裡面的材料6成來自石化液你電子當中的特用氣體、光眼膜等這有6成半導體的6成所以說假設你今天是\n\n06:43.038 --> 06:43.058\n全臺灣\n\n07:08.025 --> 07:31.921\n實化業中上下游的牽動的就業人口有幾萬我高雄市的就業人口的實化業的就業人口有多少10萬嘛是不是10萬部長來我就以報派就好這個台灣實化產業中下游這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的牽動就業人口全台灣45萬\n\n07:33.422 --> 08:00.154\n在高雄我就以氣爆案當中當時有一個報導說我如果關閉所有的管線我直接影響就只有直接影響我石化業高雄就有2.6萬在但是有估計向後連鎖反應會有大概兩倍所以我的就業人口在高雄就會5萬這種是狹隘的石化產業我不講我靠石化產業周邊的所有的外包工程\n\n08:01.474 --> 08:26.679\n好部長這個可嚴肅了那你的石化產業再來講喔如果你認為整個石化產業新世青他要放在哪裡你要演繹新世青確定要做但要演繹我看不出你在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做當時我們也因應石化的我們中油的這個石化產業的高石化來看一下經濟部啊在我們高雄\n\n08:27.099 --> 08:45.109\n因為要高質化所以呢新材料循環產業援軍升級的設置計畫他是跟我大林埔千村安置計畫書這件事情是不是要停板因為沒有高質化啦沒有什麼高質化因為你的新世親既然要延宕現在拍板定案而且部長這個是行政院拍板定案的案子\n\n08:49.611 --> 09:08.650\n您說要放到哪裡這要研議這是您部長的意思經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢報告委員我想這個是這樣子就是說這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的\n\n09:10.251 --> 09:15.413\n如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的誰說不能賺錢啊部長剛才我已經爬輸了整個那也就是說光是你要讓石化業他認為不賺錢所以我所有百工百業半導體業的石化原料我的這個所有傳統產業的全部都在進口嗎報告委員那個是中下游我們現在談的這個新資金是上游\n\n09:35.058 --> 09:58.809\n報告部長我們所有石化業全部都是內銷我們只有那個柴油少小的柴油外銷那個量太大全部都內銷部長很明顯你對石化產業完全完全是狀況外的我跟委員報告你現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有7大石化產業你講到中國你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠\n\n10:03.274 --> 10:04.698\n中國現在有7個石化廠\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.103,"end":30.335,"text":"有請部長請郭部長郭部長剛才台電董事長他說穩定供電是台電公司責無旁貸的使命台電公司需要社會各界共同支持電力建設那這個電力建設是包含要把要在呂宋島菲律密宋島建電廠嗎"},{"start":33.029,"end":34.751,"text":"所以這是郭部長的命題還是經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題"},{"start":46.194,"end":66.869,"text":"報告委員這個是我在這個十百名夫的這個他的論壇上面我們大概有很多的這個學者專家那麼他們討論出來因為這個綠能的部分所以這是郭部長跟學者專家的命題還不是經濟部的命題是好"},{"start":68.03,"end":84.756,"text":"那這個我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性但是可以考評估不過呢光是本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景台澎海纜在18年前規劃2005年我們的海纜長度是58.8公里陸纜是9.1這樣的預算157.3億耗時13年"},{"start":95.7,"end":122.026,"text":"那菲律賓到台灣300公里 距比海澎海南我只講海南 就要多5倍那這興建到底還要多久那這個發會沒有千億以上是不可能的所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景好那接下來本期再議的就是今天的主題我們石化工業新世青真的要南遷呂宋島嗎 部長"},{"start":125.174,"end":139.059,"text":"請回應報告委員這些都是一些假設的這個討論假設那我一樣要問是國部長您的命題經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題現在這個還是停留在討論的階段"},{"start":140.619,"end":157.407,"text":"是在經濟部內部討論嗎我們現在因為這個綠能的部分是屬於全球大家我只講石化業我不講這個綠能部分這是剛才的第一題現在我進入到第二組是報告委員因為這個石化業也是用電非常重的一個產業"},{"start":158.807,"end":175.985,"text":"我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業而且不是只有看台灣這個市場所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力我們必須要讓他的這個各方面的這個材料成本還有這個"},{"start":179.048,"end":205.609,"text":"那部長您針對您這樣的說法是要把新世青整個移到改投資建設聽好喔是改投資並建設於呂宋島改投資建設的意思我新世青是核定1068億整個移到呂宋島建設什麼叫改建設就是整個連根拔起所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島嗎"},{"start":206.77,"end":209.653,"text":"所以這是改投資建設呂宋島這是你們的這樣的一個規劃嗎 討論嗎"},{"start":215.524,"end":240.544,"text":"報告委員我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚那我接了這個新世青的這個案子以後我們要考慮了這樣的一個投資成本下去他有沒有辦法快速的回收市場是不是具有競爭力我可能背景您不清楚我就講給你聽中油世青它不像台塑是僅供應我集團內的石化劣節"},{"start":241.244,"end":254.471,"text":"事件是肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠近40年他扛起了國內石化業的基礎不可諱言他的設備確實是老了所以新事件的規劃自拍板定案部長8年預算從因為拖延從823億延至1062億"},{"start":261.694,"end":284.409,"text":"這就是背景好在第二個背景呢在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一週本席不斷的催促行政院終於核定了低碳減排環保智慧化這個智慧化是要減少公安事件的新事情這就是所謂的新事情低碳減排環保智慧化的管理減少公安"},{"start":284.969,"end":300.896,"text":"曾熙本席還用送高雄一份大禮向陳建仁院長來做感謝所以部長您這邊講的是要讓我們新世親請你再講清楚因為我們現在全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場"},{"start":302.496,"end":316.867,"text":"這個實在是太震撼了我只能用震撼兩個字您要是否把這個新世紀所謂的有競爭力是改投資建設整個一道呂宋島嗎?"},{"start":318.856,"end":335.453,"text":"報告委員是不是移到哪一個地方我想這個都是在所以你確定要移新世青要不要建新世青要不要建這個我想這個必須是整個的確定那已經確定了他當然就是要建"},{"start":336.654,"end":353.224,"text":"但是問題是建在哪裡我認為有討論的必要因為這個裡面這個企業投資了1000多億如果他沒有市場如果他沒有辦法這個payback我認為這個投資我必須要再檢討"},{"start":354.805,"end":357.848,"text":"部長 這個投資在哪裡來 全部都在國內本席爬書給你看石化工業雖然狹義 我就救石化工業他的狹義占不到2%的國民生產毛利 沒有錯但是他的覆蓋力是百工百業傳統產業來講 他覆蓋哪裡 請看下表"},{"start":373.542,"end":402.358,"text":"有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、燃燒纖維、氣合劑我們每天家裡的裝潢都要氣合劑、溶藥都要石化液這都傳統產業好 半導體的原物料6成就是裡面的材料6成來自石化液你電子當中的特用氣體、光眼膜等這有6成半導體的6成 所以說假設你今天是"},{"start":403.038,"end":403.058,"text":"全臺灣"},{"start":428.025,"end":451.921,"text":"實化業中上下游的牽動的就業人口有幾萬我高雄市的就業人口的實化業的就業人口有多少10萬嘛是不是10萬部長來我就以報派就好這個台灣實化產業中下游這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的牽動就業人口全台灣45萬"},{"start":453.422,"end":480.154,"text":"在高雄我就以氣爆案當中當時有一個報導說我如果關閉所有的管線我直接影響就只有直接影響我石化業高雄就有2.6萬在但是有估計向後連鎖反應會有大概兩倍所以我的就業人口在高雄就會5萬這種是狹隘的石化產業我不講我靠石化產業周邊的所有的外包工程"},{"start":481.474,"end":506.679,"text":"好部長這個可嚴肅了那你的石化產業再來講喔如果你認為整個石化產業新世青他要放在哪裡你要演繹新世青確定要做但要演繹我看不出你在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做當時我們也因應石化的我們中油的這個石化產業的高石化來看一下經濟部啊在我們高雄"},{"start":507.099,"end":525.109,"text":"因為要高質化所以呢新材料循環產業援軍升級的設置計畫他是跟我大林埔千村安置計畫書這件事情是不是要停板因為沒有高質化啦沒有什麼高質化因為你的新世親既然要延宕現在拍板定案而且部長這個是行政院拍板定案的案子"},{"start":529.611,"end":548.65,"text":"您說要放到哪裡這要研議這是您部長的意思經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢報告委員我想這個是這樣子就是說這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的"},{"start":550.251,"end":555.413,"text":"如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的誰說不能賺錢啊部長剛才我已經爬輸了整個那也就是說光是你要讓石化業他認為不賺錢所以我所有百工百業半導體業的石化原料我的這個所有傳統產業的全部都在進口嗎報告委員那個是中下游我們現在談的這個新資金是上游"},{"start":575.058,"end":598.809,"text":"報告部長我們所有石化業全部都是內銷我們只有那個柴油少小的柴油外銷那個量太大全部都內銷部長很明顯你對石化產業完全完全是狀況外的我跟委員報告你現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有7大石化產業你講到中國你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠"},{"start":603.274,"end":604.698,"text":"中國現在有7個石化廠"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:23:58 - 09:34:09","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":155497,"gazette":{"lineno":80,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時24分）有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早！"],["林委員岱樺：部長，剛才台電董事長說，穩定供電是台電公司責無旁貸的使命，台電公司需要社會各界共同支持電力建設。那這個電力建設是包含要在菲律賓呂宋島建電廠嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個命題是我們沒有確定的一個命題。"],["林委員岱樺：所以這是郭部長的命題，還是經濟部的命題，還是行政院的命題？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我在矢板明夫的論壇上面，當時有很多的學者專家，他們討論出來，因為綠能的部分是屬於民主聯盟國家……"],["林委員岱樺：所以這是郭部長和學者專家的命題，還不是經濟部的命題？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員岱樺：好。我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性，是可以評估，不過光是海纜的問題，本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景，臺澎海纜在18年前（2005年）規劃，海纜長度是58.8公里，陸纜是9.1公里，這樣的預算有157.3億，耗時13年，菲律賓到臺灣300公里，比臺澎海纜就要多5倍，我只講海纜，這個興建到底要多久？這個花費沒有千億以上是不可能的！所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景。","接下來本席在意的就是今天的主題，我們的石化工業新四輕真的要南遷呂宋島嗎？部長，請回應。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這些都是一些假設的討論……"],["林委員岱樺：假設，那我一樣要問，是郭部長的命題，經濟部的命題，還是行政院的命題？"],["郭部長智輝：現在這個還是停留在討論的階段，就是因為我們……"],["林委員岱樺：是在經濟部內部討論嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在因為綠能的部分是屬於全球、大家、區域在討論的部分……"],["林委員岱樺：我講石化業，我只講石化業，綠能的部分是剛才的第一題，現在我進入到第二個主題了。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，因為石化業也是用電非常重的一個產業，我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業，而且不是只有看臺灣這個市場，所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力，我們必須要讓它各方面的材料成本，還有建廠、製造的成本能夠降低，而且市場……"],["林委員岱樺：好，部長，針對您這樣的說法，您是要把新四輕整個改投資建設，聽好了，是改投資並建設於呂宋島，改投資建設的意思是我們新四輕是核定1,068億，整個移到呂宋島，什麼叫改建設？就是整個連根拔起，所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島，所以這是改投資建設呂宋島，你們是這樣的規劃、討論嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚，我接了這個新四輕的案子以後，我們要考慮這樣的投資成本下去，它有沒有辦法很快速的回收，市場是不是具有競爭力……"],["林委員岱樺：好，部長，背景你不清楚，我就講給你聽，中油四輕不像台塑僅供應集團內的石化裂解，四輕肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠，近四十年它扛起了國內石化業的基礎。不可諱言，它的設備確實是老了，所以新四輕的規劃至拍板定案，部長，8年！預算因為拖延從823億增至1,062億，這就是背景。","第二個背景，在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一周，本席不斷地催促，行政院終於核定了低碳、減排、環保、智慧化的新四輕，這個智慧化是要減少工安事件，這就是所謂的新四輕，低碳、減排、環保、智慧化管理（減少工安事件），本席還用「送高雄一份大禮」來感謝陳建仁院長。","所以部長，您這邊講的是，要讓我們新四輕……請你再講清楚，因為現在我們全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場，這個實在是太震撼了！我只能用震撼兩個字，您是否要把這個所謂有競爭力的新四輕整個改投資建設移到呂宋島嗎？請回答。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，有關是不是移到哪個地方，我想這個都是在……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你確定要移？新四輕要不要建？新四輕要不要建？"],["郭部長智輝：關於新四輕要不要建，我想這是確定的，已經確定了它當然就是要建嘛，但問題是建在哪裡？我認為有討論的必要啦，因為這裡面企業投資了一千多億，如果它沒有市場、如果它沒有辦法payback，我認為這個投資必須要再檢討。"],["林委員岱樺：好，部長，這個投資在哪裡？全部都在國內！本席爬梳給你看，石化工業雖然狹義……我只就石化工業，狹義部分占不到百分之二的國民生產毛額沒有錯，但是它的覆蓋率是百工百業，以傳統產業來講，它覆蓋哪裡？請看下表，有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、人造纖維、接合劑，我們每天家裡的裝潢都要接合劑，連農藥都要石化業，這都是傳統產業；半導體的原物料六成，就是裡面的材料六成來自石化業，電子當中的特用氣體、光掩膜等，這有半導體的六成。假設你今天認為它沒有競爭力、百分之二不算高，然後要整個外移，那不好意思，傳統產業跟半導體產業的全部石化原料都要進口，這個通膨可是天價！","再來，我要讓您再了解一下我們的就業人口，全臺灣石化業中、上、下游牽動的就業人口有幾萬？我高雄市的石化業就業人口有多少？"],["郭部長智輝：10萬嘛，是不是？"],["林委員岱樺：10萬。部長，我就以報派就好，這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的，臺灣石化產業中下游牽動全臺灣就業人口45萬，在高雄的部分，我就以氣爆案當時的一個報導來看，如果關閉所有的管線，僅直接影響的石化業部分，高雄就有2.6萬，但是估計向後連鎖反應大概會有兩倍，所以在高雄的就業人口就會5萬，這只是狹隘的石化產業，我還不講石化產業周邊的所有外包工程。","部長，這個可嚴肅了，再來講石化產業，如果你認為整個石化產業的新四輕要放在哪裡需要研議，新四輕確定要做但要研議，我看不出在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做！當時我們也為了因應中游石化產業的高值化，看一下，經濟部在我們高雄因為要高值化，所以有「新材料循環產業園區申請設置計畫─大林蒲遷村安置計畫書」，這件事情是不是要停擺？因為沒有高值化啦，沒有什麼高值化，因為你的新四輕既然要延宕，現在拍板定案，而且部長，這個是行政院拍板定案的案子，您說要放到哪裡要研議，這是部長您的意思、經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個是這樣子啦，這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任，讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的，如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的，那麼這個我們……"],["林委員岱樺：誰說不能賺錢啊？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：因為時空的改變……"],["林委員岱樺：剛才我已經爬梳了整個……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有……"],["林委員岱樺：也就是說，如果你認為石化業不賺錢，所以所有百工百業、傳統產業、半導體業的石化原料全部通通都進口嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個是中下游，我們現在談的這個新四輕是上游……"],["林委員岱樺：報告部長，我們所有石化業全部都是內銷，我們只有那個少少的柴油外銷，那個量太少，全部都內銷！"],["郭部長智輝：不是、不是，沒有，我們……"],["林委員岱樺：部長，很明顯你對石化產業完全、完全是狀況外的！"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有七大石化產業，都做一樣的東西，他的成本比我們更低……"],["林委員岱樺：好，你講到中國，你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠？"],["郭部長智輝：中國現在有七大石化廠……"],["林委員岱樺：關於在2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠，請你去掌握！好，我以上質詢，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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