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{\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 396.818, \"end\": 397.038, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 397.038, \"end\": 397.318, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 397.318, \"end\": 397.518, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 397.518, \"end\": 397.538, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 397.538, \"end\": 397.558, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 398.718, \"end\": 423.716, \"text\": \"政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 398.718, \"end\": 398.878, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 398.878, \"end\": 399.018, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 399.018, \"end\": 399.639, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 399.639, \"end\": 399.979, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 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0.837}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 501.174, \"end\": 501.334, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 501.334, \"end\": 501.474, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 501.474, \"end\": 501.494, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,222 --> 00:00:04,586\n好主席有請國安局局長請好謝謝主席陳委員長\n\n2\n00:00:13,849 --> 00:00:39,916\n局長早大家都關心這兩天就是歷屆的是前面的委員也提了既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時其實就局裡面的研究來講反推起碼13天前就已經掌握有些趨勢發展了因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際的情勢那我這邊先做一個建言\n\n3\n00:00:42,090 --> 00:00:53,524\n對於俄烏戰爭因為那個復原廣大對於烏東的狀況即便攻勤裡面大家對台海跟烏克蘭的狀況的比較沒有概念烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.725\n\n4\n00:01:01,192 --> 00:01:23,127\n那麼人口是4300萬比2300萬但是呢人口的密度跟個人的耗電那台灣超過他太多所以這個case在比照這個加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢我們建議以後做報告的時候在封底附一張蓋圖\n\n5\n00:01:24,868 --> 00:01:41,121\n好那能夠說明因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這個裡面都了解我舉例來講像最近像在東海比方講這個環繞軍演對日本方面的也在觀測比方來講大家都在講宮古島\n\n6\n00:01:42,722 --> 00:01:45,203\n中共跟菲律賓啊或者是越南在南海的比方講黃岩島仁愛礁\n\n7\n00:01:59,754 --> 00:02:00,575\n﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚\n\n8\n00:02:23,814 --> 00:02:34,933\n因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正的影響到國際民航跟海上航行那這個圖呢就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖我們再看下一張圖\n\n9\n00:02:37,245 --> 00:02:51,315\n這個就把三次演習的圖套疊底圖是中共發布的我們把它倒疊出來去看出這個位置有沒有偏差這個圖已經偏離開了這張圖就是演習完了我們國防部在報載上公開的這個圖\n\n10\n00:03:01,062 --> 00:03:27,294\n但這些資料它的互動關係不是用統計數字單獨來判我們再看到下一張這個下面的圖各位就看到了遼寧號這是日本公布的我們當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握也就是說這個遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角但是它的兵力投射的範圍可是已經深進來我們的電視主任在這邊\n\n11\n00:03:31,986 --> 00:04:00,009\n對殲15殲載機有出了是電纜是有許多的情資來源我們在這邊不提但是它掌握的位置能不能跟我們對外面公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較那對於我們高階的長官做判斷就很容易因為像這張圖上很明顯的就是韓國的防空示威區日本防空示威區中共的東海防空示威區我們防空示威區菲律賓的都框出來\n\n12\n00:04:00,609 --> 00:04:00,749\n陳永康\n\n13\n00:04:17,022 --> 00:04:17,082\n：陳永康\n\n14\n00:04:45,490 --> 00:05:03,737\n最後這次例件我們還是用一個方法論就原則上面不設限沒有禁航區沒有影響國際航道不動手沒有實彈射擊或是海上臨檢他的統戰策略灰色地域軍事行動隔離封鎖與武攻台三項行動常態化不定期穿插聯動\n\n15\n00:05:05,217 --> 00:05:26,349\n並把臺灣周邊的海域內海化作為法律戰的一個有效支撐那麼現階段我們可以看出來的東部戰區不管他的東海的艦隊呀空軍火箭軍海警他一個同調式的做我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化的聯合作戰已經變成常態就剛才吳寧的報導中間出來\n\n16\n00:05:28,570 --> 00:05:37,995\n他證明的是一個是反制國際的介入第二個他跟國際輿論戰他要用法律戰的角色來做對抗雖然時間13小時但是剛剛講了準備絕對不止13天\n\n17\n00:05:43,951 --> 00:05:44,011\n：陳永康\n\n18\n00:06:14,451 --> 00:06:37,558\n謝謝委員的一個指導來提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習的區域還有它軍事的意涵不只是對台灣的軍事意涵而是對整體區域的軍事意涵可以的綜合的研判這是第一點那第二點也確實如委員所說的我們在中共演習之前的很長的時間大概在預判上就預判它\n\n19\n00:06:38,718 --> 00:07:03,716\n政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分\n\n20\n00:07:04,336 --> 00:07:21,678\n跟委員報告也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資能夠圖示化所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會我個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的所以這代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的運營的一個備案\n\n21\n00:07:23,159 --> 00:07:51,213\n提供給我們做參考好的謝謝局長因為這個電纜室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機制我們大家有聯繫因為電纜室做的東西是非常低調不對外講的那實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公勤做相對的輔助做查證那我們盡量希望大家的報告以公勤公開的來討論那閉門的秘密會議裡面東西我們就不去touch\n\n22\n00:07:52,073 --> 00:08:18,650\n最後的建議就是說希望這個國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作這樣子在重要會議中間的那個大圖小圖我們可以套疊七八成從不同的來源顯示不同的時間不同的位置不同的動態不同的行動最後啊不只回溯我們可以預推我們要降低風險掌握狀況這個提供局長做參考\n\n23\n00:08:19,210 --> 00:08:21,494\n這部分我們有在處理,謝謝我的提醒,非常謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n222\t4586\t好主席有請國安局局長請好謝謝主席陳委員長\n13849\t39916\t局長早大家都關心這兩天就是歷屆的是前面的委員也提了既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時其實就局裡面的研究來講反推起碼13天前就已經掌握有些趨勢發展了因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際的情勢那我這邊先做一個建言\n42090\t53524\t對於俄烏戰爭因為那個復原廣大對於烏東的狀況即便攻勤裡面大家對台海跟烏克蘭的狀況的比較沒有概念烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.725\n61192\t83127\t那麼人口是4300萬比2300萬但是呢人口的密度跟個人的耗電那台灣超過他太多所以這個case在比照這個加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢我們建議以後做報告的時候在封底附一張蓋圖\n84868\t101121\t好那能夠說明因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這個裡面都了解我舉例來講像最近像在東海比方講這個環繞軍演對日本方面的也在觀測比方來講大家都在講宮古島\n102722\t105203\t中共跟菲律賓啊或者是越南在南海的比方講黃岩島仁愛礁\n119754\t120575\t﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚\n143814\t154933\t因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正的影響到國際民航跟海上航行那這個圖呢就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖我們再看下一張圖\n157245\t171315\t這個就把三次演習的圖套疊底圖是中共發布的我們把它倒疊出來去看出這個位置有沒有偏差這個圖已經偏離開了這張圖就是演習完了我們國防部在報載上公開的這個圖\n181062\t207294\t但這些資料它的互動關係不是用統計數字單獨來判我們再看到下一張這個下面的圖各位就看到了遼寧號這是日本公布的我們當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握也就是說這個遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角但是它的兵力投射的範圍可是已經深進來我們的電視主任在這邊\n211986\t240009\t對 殲15 殲載機有出了是 電纜是有許多的情資來源我們在這邊不提但是它掌握的位置能不能跟我們對外面公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較那對於我們高階的長官做判斷就很容易因為像這張圖上很明顯的就是韓國的防空示威區日本防空示威區中共的東海防空示威區我們防空示威區菲律賓的都框出來\n240609\t240749\t陳永康\n257022\t257082\t：陳永康\n285490\t303737\t最後這次例件我們還是用一個方法論就原則上面不設限沒有禁航區沒有影響國際航道不動手沒有實彈射擊或是海上臨檢他的統戰策略灰色地域軍事行動隔離封鎖與武攻台三項行動常態化不定期穿插聯動\n305217\t326349\t並把臺灣周邊的海域內海化作為法律戰的一個有效支撐那麼現階段我們可以看出來的東部戰區不管他的東海的艦隊呀空軍火箭軍海警他一個同調式的做我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化的聯合作戰已經變成常態就剛才吳寧的報導中間出來\n328570\t337995\t他證明的是一個是反制國際的介入第二個他跟國際輿論戰他要用法律戰的角色來做對抗雖然時間13小時但是剛剛講了準備絕對不止13天\n343951\t344011\t：陳永康\n374451\t397558\t謝謝委員的一個指導來提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習的區域還有它軍事的意涵不只是對台灣的軍事意涵而是對整體區域的軍事意涵可以的綜合的研判這是第一點那第二點也確實如委員所說的我們在中共演習之前的很長的時間大概在預判上就預判它\n398718\t423716\t政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分\n424336\t441678\t跟委員報告也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資能夠圖示化所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會我個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的所以這代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的運營的一個備案\n443159\t471213\t提供給我們做參考好的謝謝局長因為這個電纜室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機制我們大家有聯繫因為電纜室做的東西是非常低調不對外講的那實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公勤做相對的輔助做查證那我們盡量希望大家的報告以公勤公開的來討論那閉門的秘密會議裡面東西我們就不去touch\n472073\t498650\t最後的建議就是說希望這個國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作這樣子在重要會議中間的那個大圖小圖我們可以套疊七八成從不同的來源顯示不同的時間不同的位置不同的動態不同的行動最後啊不只回溯我們可以預推我們要降低風險掌握狀況這個提供局長做參考\n499210\t501494\t這部分我們有在處理,謝謝我的提醒,非常謝謝\n","txt":"好主席有請國安局局長請好謝謝主席陳委員長\n局長早大家都關心這兩天就是歷屆的是前面的委員也提了既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時其實就局裡面的研究來講反推起碼13天前就已經掌握有些趨勢發展了因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際的情勢那我這邊先做一個建言\n對於俄烏戰爭因為那個復原廣大對於烏東的狀況即便攻勤裡面大家對台海跟烏克蘭的狀況的比較沒有概念烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.725\n那麼人口是4300萬比2300萬但是呢人口的密度跟個人的耗電那台灣超過他太多所以這個case在比照這個加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢我們建議以後做報告的時候在封底附一張蓋圖\n好那能夠說明因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這個裡面都了解我舉例來講像最近像在東海比方講這個環繞軍演對日本方面的也在觀測比方來講大家都在講宮古島\n中共跟菲律賓啊或者是越南在南海的比方講黃岩島仁愛礁\n﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚\n因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正的影響到國際民航跟海上航行那這個圖呢就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖我們再看下一張圖\n這個就把三次演習的圖套疊底圖是中共發布的我們把它倒疊出來去看出這個位置有沒有偏差這個圖已經偏離開了這張圖就是演習完了我們國防部在報載上公開的這個圖\n但這些資料它的互動關係不是用統計數字單獨來判我們再看到下一張這個下面的圖各位就看到了遼寧號這是日本公布的我們當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握也就是說這個遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角但是它的兵力投射的範圍可是已經深進來我們的電視主任在這邊\n對 殲15 殲載機有出了是 電纜是有許多的情資來源我們在這邊不提但是它掌握的位置能不能跟我們對外面公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較那對於我們高階的長官做判斷就很容易因為像這張圖上很明顯的就是韓國的防空示威區日本防空示威區中共的東海防空示威區我們防空示威區菲律賓的都框出來\n陳永康\n：陳永康\n最後這次例件我們還是用一個方法論就原則上面不設限沒有禁航區沒有影響國際航道不動手沒有實彈射擊或是海上臨檢他的統戰策略灰色地域軍事行動隔離封鎖與武攻台三項行動常態化不定期穿插聯動\n並把臺灣周邊的海域內海化作為法律戰的一個有效支撐那麼現階段我們可以看出來的東部戰區不管他的東海的艦隊呀空軍火箭軍海警他一個同調式的做我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化的聯合作戰已經變成常態就剛才吳寧的報導中間出來\n他證明的是一個是反制國際的介入第二個他跟國際輿論戰他要用法律戰的角色來做對抗雖然時間13小時但是剛剛講了準備絕對不止13天\n：陳永康\n謝謝委員的一個指導來提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習的區域還有它軍事的意涵不只是對台灣的軍事意涵而是對整體區域的軍事意涵可以的綜合的研判這是第一點那第二點也確實如委員所說的我們在中共演習之前的很長的時間大概在預判上就預判它\n政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分\n跟委員報告也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資能夠圖示化所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會我個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的所以這代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的運營的一個備案\n提供給我們做參考好的謝謝局長因為這個電纜室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機制我們大家有聯繫因為電纜室做的東西是非常低調不對外講的那實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公勤做相對的輔助做查證那我們盡量希望大家的報告以公勤公開的來討論那閉門的秘密會議裡面東西我們就不去touch\n最後的建議就是說希望這個國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作這樣子在重要會議中間的那個大圖小圖我們可以套疊七八成從不同的來源顯示不同的時間不同的位置不同的動態不同的行動最後啊不只回溯我們可以預推我們要降低風險掌握狀況這個提供局長做參考\n這部分我們有在處理,謝謝我的提醒,非常謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.222 --> 00:04.586\n好主席有請國安局局長請好謝謝主席陳委員長\n\n00:13.849 --> 00:39.916\n局長早大家都關心這兩天就是歷屆的是前面的委員也提了既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時其實就局裡面的研究來講反推起碼13天前就已經掌握有些趨勢發展了因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際的情勢那我這邊先做一個建言\n\n00:42.090 --> 00:53.524\n對於俄烏戰爭因為那個復原廣大對於烏東的狀況即便攻勤裡面大家對台海跟烏克蘭的狀況的比較沒有概念烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.725\n\n01:01.192 --> 01:23.127\n那麼人口是4300萬比2300萬但是呢人口的密度跟個人的耗電那台灣超過他太多所以這個case在比照這個加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢我們建議以後做報告的時候在封底附一張蓋圖\n\n01:24.868 --> 01:41.121\n好那能夠說明因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這個裡面都了解我舉例來講像最近像在東海比方講這個環繞軍演對日本方面的也在觀測比方來講大家都在講宮古島\n\n01:42.722 --> 01:45.203\n中共跟菲律賓啊或者是越南在南海的比方講黃岩島仁愛礁\n\n01:59.754 --> 02:00.575\n﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚\n\n02:23.814 --> 02:34.933\n因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正的影響到國際民航跟海上航行那這個圖呢就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖我們再看下一張圖\n\n02:37.245 --> 02:51.315\n這個就把三次演習的圖套疊底圖是中共發布的我們把它倒疊出來去看出這個位置有沒有偏差這個圖已經偏離開了這張圖就是演習完了我們國防部在報載上公開的這個圖\n\n03:01.062 --> 03:27.294\n但這些資料它的互動關係不是用統計數字單獨來判我們再看到下一張這個下面的圖各位就看到了遼寧號這是日本公布的我們當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握也就是說這個遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角但是它的兵力投射的範圍可是已經深進來我們的電視主任在這邊\n\n03:31.986 --> 04:00.009\n對殲15殲載機有出了是電纜是有許多的情資來源我們在這邊不提但是它掌握的位置能不能跟我們對外面公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較那對於我們高階的長官做判斷就很容易因為像這張圖上很明顯的就是韓國的防空示威區日本防空示威區中共的東海防空示威區我們防空示威區菲律賓的都框出來\n\n04:00.609 --> 04:00.749\n陳永康\n\n04:17.022 --> 04:17.082\n：陳永康\n\n04:45.490 --> 05:03.737\n最後這次例件我們還是用一個方法論就原則上面不設限沒有禁航區沒有影響國際航道不動手沒有實彈射擊或是海上臨檢他的統戰策略灰色地域軍事行動隔離封鎖與武攻台三項行動常態化不定期穿插聯動\n\n05:05.217 --> 05:26.349\n並把臺灣周邊的海域內海化作為法律戰的一個有效支撐那麼現階段我們可以看出來的東部戰區不管他的東海的艦隊呀空軍火箭軍海警他一個同調式的做我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化的聯合作戰已經變成常態就剛才吳寧的報導中間出來\n\n05:28.570 --> 05:37.995\n他證明的是一個是反制國際的介入第二個他跟國際輿論戰他要用法律戰的角色來做對抗雖然時間13小時但是剛剛講了準備絕對不止13天\n\n05:43.951 --> 05:44.011\n：陳永康\n\n06:14.451 --> 06:37.558\n謝謝委員的一個指導來提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習的區域還有它軍事的意涵不只是對台灣的軍事意涵而是對整體區域的軍事意涵可以的綜合的研判這是第一點那第二點也確實如委員所說的我們在中共演習之前的很長的時間大概在預判上就預判它\n\n06:38.718 --> 07:03.716\n政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分\n\n07:04.336 --> 07:21.678\n跟委員報告也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資能夠圖示化所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會我個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的所以這代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的運營的一個備案\n\n07:23.159 --> 07:51.213\n提供給我們做參考好的謝謝局長因為這個電纜室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機制我們大家有聯繫因為電纜室做的東西是非常低調不對外講的那實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公勤做相對的輔助做查證那我們盡量希望大家的報告以公勤公開的來討論那閉門的秘密會議裡面東西我們就不去touch\n\n07:52.073 --> 08:18.650\n最後的建議就是說希望這個國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作這樣子在重要會議中間的那個大圖小圖我們可以套疊七八成從不同的來源顯示不同的時間不同的位置不同的動態不同的行動最後啊不只回溯我們可以預推我們要降低風險掌握狀況這個提供局長做參考\n\n08:19.210 --> 08:21.494\n這部分我們有在處理,謝謝我的提醒,非常謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.222,"end":4.586,"text":"好主席有請國安局局長請好謝謝主席陳委員長"},{"start":13.849,"end":39.916,"text":"局長早大家都關心這兩天就是歷屆的是前面的委員也提了既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時其實就局裡面的研究來講反推起碼13天前就已經掌握有些趨勢發展了因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際的情勢那我這邊先做一個建言"},{"start":42.09,"end":53.524,"text":"對於俄烏戰爭因為那個復原廣大對於烏東的狀況即便攻勤裡面大家對台海跟烏克蘭的狀況的比較沒有概念烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.725"},{"start":61.192,"end":83.127,"text":"那麼人口是4300萬比2300萬但是呢人口的密度跟個人的耗電那台灣超過他太多所以這個case在比照這個加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢我們建議以後做報告的時候在封底附一張蓋圖"},{"start":84.868,"end":101.121,"text":"好那能夠說明因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這個裡面都了解我舉例來講像最近像在東海比方講這個環繞軍演對日本方面的也在觀測比方來講大家都在講宮古島"},{"start":102.722,"end":105.203,"text":"中共跟菲律賓啊或者是越南在南海的比方講黃岩島仁愛礁"},{"start":119.754,"end":120.575,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":143.814,"end":154.933,"text":"因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正的影響到國際民航跟海上航行那這個圖呢就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖我們再看下一張圖"},{"start":157.245,"end":171.315,"text":"這個就把三次演習的圖套疊底圖是中共發布的我們把它倒疊出來去看出這個位置有沒有偏差這個圖已經偏離開了這張圖就是演習完了我們國防部在報載上公開的這個圖"},{"start":181.062,"end":207.294,"text":"但這些資料它的互動關係不是用統計數字單獨來判我們再看到下一張這個下面的圖各位就看到了遼寧號這是日本公布的我們當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握也就是說這個遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角但是它的兵力投射的範圍可是已經深進來我們的電視主任在這邊"},{"start":211.986,"end":240.009,"text":"對 殲15 殲載機有出了是 電纜是有許多的情資來源我們在這邊不提但是它掌握的位置能不能跟我們對外面公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較那對於我們高階的長官做判斷就很容易因為像這張圖上很明顯的就是韓國的防空示威區日本防空示威區中共的東海防空示威區我們防空示威區菲律賓的都框出來"},{"start":240.609,"end":240.749,"text":"陳永康"},{"start":257.022,"end":257.082,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":285.49,"end":303.737,"text":"最後這次例件我們還是用一個方法論就原則上面不設限沒有禁航區沒有影響國際航道不動手沒有實彈射擊或是海上臨檢他的統戰策略灰色地域軍事行動隔離封鎖與武攻台三項行動常態化不定期穿插聯動"},{"start":305.217,"end":326.349,"text":"並把臺灣周邊的海域內海化作為法律戰的一個有效支撐那麼現階段我們可以看出來的東部戰區不管他的東海的艦隊呀空軍火箭軍海警他一個同調式的做我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化的聯合作戰已經變成常態就剛才吳寧的報導中間出來"},{"start":328.57,"end":337.995,"text":"他證明的是一個是反制國際的介入第二個他跟國際輿論戰他要用法律戰的角色來做對抗雖然時間13小時但是剛剛講了準備絕對不止13天"},{"start":343.951,"end":344.011,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":374.451,"end":397.558,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導來提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習的區域還有它軍事的意涵不只是對台灣的軍事意涵而是對整體區域的軍事意涵可以的綜合的研判這是第一點那第二點也確實如委員所說的我們在中共演習之前的很長的時間大概在預判上就預判它"},{"start":398.718,"end":423.716,"text":"政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分"},{"start":424.336,"end":441.678,"text":"跟委員報告也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資能夠圖示化所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會我個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的所以這代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的運營的一個備案"},{"start":443.159,"end":471.213,"text":"提供給我們做參考好的謝謝局長因為這個電纜室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機制我們大家有聯繫因為電纜室做的東西是非常低調不對外講的那實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公勤做相對的輔助做查證那我們盡量希望大家的報告以公勤公開的來討論那閉門的秘密會議裡面東西我們就不去touch"},{"start":472.073,"end":498.65,"text":"最後的建議就是說希望這個國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作這樣子在重要會議中間的那個大圖小圖我們可以套疊七八成從不同的來源顯示不同的時間不同的位置不同的動態不同的行動最後啊不只回溯我們可以預推我們要降低風險掌握狀況這個提供局長做參考"},{"start":499.21,"end":501.494,"text":"這部分我們有在處理,謝謝我的提醒,非常謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:44:26 - 09:52:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":155504,"gazette":{"lineno":130,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時44分）主席，有請國安局局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員永康：局長早。大家都關心這兩天的聯合利劍演習。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員永康：前面的委員也提了，既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時，就局裡面的研究來講，反推起碼13天前就已經掌握這個趨勢發展了。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員永康：因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際情勢，那我這邊先做一個建言，對於俄烏戰爭，因為幅員廣大，對於烏東的狀況，即便公情裡面大家對臺海跟烏克蘭的狀況比較沒有概念，烏克蘭的面積是臺灣的16.725倍，人口比是4,300萬比2,300萬，但是人口密度跟個人耗電，臺灣超過它太多，所以這個case在比照加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢，我們建議以後做報告的時候，在封底附一張概圖能夠說明……"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["陳委員永康：因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這裡面都了解，我舉例來講，最近像在東海，比方講環擾軍演、對日本方面的也在觀測，比方講大家都在講宮古島、西表島、石垣島、波照間島，甚至與那國島，大家都知道名詞，不知道位置，同樣中共跟菲律賓或者是越南在南海的，比方講黃岩島、仁愛礁、薩比納、仙賓礁，甚至中業島等可以用位置概略出來，做建言。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["陳委員永康：今天你看到我們講的演習方法論，貴局人才輩出，資料都有，我們只是用現成的公情來顯示，第一個，海峽中線、防空識別區、他公布的操演區，但是沒有經緯度，所以是個概念，因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正影響到國際民航跟海上航行，這個圖就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖。","我們再看下一張圖，這個就把三次演習的圖套疊，底圖是中共發布的，我們把它套疊出來去看出位置有沒有偏差，這個圖已經偏離開了，圖的底圖已經偏開了。這張圖就是演習完畢，國防部在報載上公開的圖，但這些資料的互動關係不是用統計數字單獨來判。","我們再看到下一張。下面的圖，各位就看到遼寧號，這是日本公布的，當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握，也就是說遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角，但是它的兵力投射的範圍已經滲進來，我們的電展室主任在這邊。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，殲-15艦載機有出來。"],["陳委員永康：電展室有許多情資來源，我們在這邊不提，但是它掌握的位置能不能與對外面的公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較，對於高階長官做判斷就很容易。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["陳委員永康：因為像這張圖上很明顯就是將韓國、日本、中共的東海、我們的、菲律賓的防空識別區等都框出來。如果你關心周遭的情勢，你必須要有一個涵蓋大範圍的圖讓我們的高階長官能夠了解，而不僅是聚焦在臺海周邊的狹義圖像。","各位看這個圖，我們有一個大範圍的衛星圖再套上經過校正的航圖、海圖，所以鄰近國家的防空識別區、臨海空域、基線都做了套疊，最後再把中共這次演習的圖套上去，這樣子對長官的判斷，尤其是在決策過程中的格局放大，但是細緻的圖、基礎資料也可以提供他做一個正確判斷的參考。","最後，這次利劍演習，我們還是用一個方法論，就是原則上面不設限（無禁航區未影響國際航道）、不動手（未實彈射擊或海上臨檢）。它的統戰策略包括灰色地帶（準軍事）行動、隔離/封鎖與武力攻臺「三項行動」常態化且不定期穿插連動並以臺灣周邊海域內海化，作為法律戰的有效支撐。那麼現階段我們可以看出來的，東部作戰區不管它的東海艦隊、空軍、火箭軍與海警同調式的做，我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化聯合作戰已經變成常態，就剛才如您的報告中指出來，它證明的一個是反制國際的介入；第二個，它跟國際輿論戰要用法律戰的角色來對抗。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員永康：雖然時間13小時，但是剛剛講了，準備絕對不只13天。是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員永康：結論就是做一個建議，貴局內部有非常詳盡的源頭，或者不管是從公情對我友邦分析完了，但是在上陳到決策過程中間，我建議要有一個共同圖像來涵蓋，讓我們的長官因為背景不同、專業不同，能夠用一個共同圖像顯示看到周遭互動、每個國家監控環境的範圍，這個對我們是有幫助，我請局長做一點回復。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員的指導，提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習區域，還有他軍事意涵，不只是對臺灣的軍事意涵，還是對整體區域的軍事意涵，可以有綜合的研判，這是第一點。","第二點，也確實如委員所說的，我們在中共演習之前，很長時間大概就預判它政治上應該會有對臺動作，所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關報導，預判國慶之後，中共就會有所謂的聯合利劍─2024B演習，這大概是政治上的判斷。在軍事上，因為在中共宣布軍演之前，它的機艦都會有相關活動，這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的研析。在圖示的部分，跟委員報告，也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的，我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資都圖示化，所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會議，我個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的，所以這也代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的預應備案，提供給委員做參考。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝局長。因為電展室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機構，我們大家也有聯繫，因為電展室做的東西非常低調，不對外講的，實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公情做相對的輔助、查證。我們儘量希望大家的報告以公情公開來討論，閉門的秘密會議裡面的東西，我們就不去碰觸。","最後的建議就是，希望國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作，這樣子在重要會議中間的大圖、小圖可以套疊七、八層，從不同的來源顯示不同的時間、位置、動態及行動，最後不只回溯，還可以預推，我們要降低風險、掌握狀況，這個提供局長做參考。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，這部分我們有在處理了，也謝謝委員的提醒。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：非常謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}}