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564.932, \"end\": 564.992, \"score\": 0.354}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 564.992, \"end\": 565.253, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"油\", \"start\": 565.253, \"end\": 565.373, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 565.373, \"end\": 565.393, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,106 --> 00:00:09,388\n主席我想請部長請國部長國部長早安國務院長部長你知道今天這個聯合報跟中國時報您是最佳男主角\n\n2\n00:00:25,273 --> 00:00:28,575\n就是頭板頭你應該是這個所有部會首長裡面上頭板頭最多的我想要請問一下說要從這個菲律賓購買綠電回台部長說你的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例\n\n3\n00:00:43,462 --> 00:00:59,541\n但部長請問您知道說新加坡政府其實尚未同意而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工目前僅止於紙上作業您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:01,277 --> 00:01:19,691\n報告委員這個是我在斯坦明夫的印太智庫上面在智庫上面因為之前有日本的大使有美國的大使然後他們在討論印太區域民主同盟大家互相的幫忙\n\n5\n00:01:20,812 --> 00:01:21,112\n所以部長您這個念頭\n\n6\n00:01:42,068 --> 00:01:53,265\n您這個念頭是即興語言嗎?不是一個可成熟的方案,可以實施的方案,只是您純粹即興的語言嗎?報告委員,我想這個是在討論的一個議題,可以討論的一個議題。\n\n7\n00:01:58,032 --> 00:02:08,454\n也就是說我們居民主同盟的一份子那麼我們來幫助或者是尋求但是您是全國經濟的總舵手你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河你不能把全民當傻瓜如果有盤點過的話部長可以請您揭示一下說大概建制預計要花多少錢那有沒有盤點過說限損率會有多少呢\n\n8\n00:02:26,094 --> 00:02:40,200\n對剛才委員執教的這個我輕易發言我對你抱歉那我不應該輕易的就是還沒有形成這個個案的部分就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法\n\n9\n00:02:41,308 --> 00:02:52,677\n那對這一點我比較沒有經驗所以我對我的這個發言我感到抱歉不過這樣的一個議題我個人認為是可以討論的我是可以討論的即使我是部長我也認為關心國內的這個綠能具有競爭力讓國內的廠商在做出口的時候他可以有充分的綠能而且2050年這個本席不反對完全不反對\n\n10\n00:03:08,108 --> 00:03:25,778\n但是我也覺得說間接您是不是承認說台灣缺電沒有台灣的電絕對沒有缺電是不是可以告訴我們台灣電力的真相呢不是我現在是這樣子我跟委員報告就是說我們現在努力的目標\n\n11\n00:03:26,698 --> 00:03:30,320\n就是說讓所有的業者所有的利用台灣的電的業者用電無率用電無率但是你說您為了2030年的這個目標我就覺得很懷疑啊你為什麼要舍近求遠呢上次本席問你說假設重啟核能要多久你說3至5年3至5年才有可能達成這2030的目標你要想這個海底電纜\n\n12\n00:03:53,571 --> 00:04:17,996\n剛才台電的這個董事長有講他說高壓直流電就是要用這個海底電要用高壓直流電然後雖然高壓直流電的這個限損率只有交流電的一半但是到了台灣你還是要換交流電啊那目前不曉得部長知不知道因為南電北送的問題台灣台電電損一年有幾億度電您知道嗎\n\n13\n00:04:19,377 --> 00:04:32,856\n這個我想這個都在控制範圍之內啦我跟委員報告剛才那個我跟您報告台底電纜的部分我跟你報告不是我們台電去做啦也不是我們去做啦這個就是會有專家的廠商他們會來做\n\n14\n00:04:33,737 --> 00:04:40,243\n那他也要會賺錢他才能做阿我先告訴您台電每年的限損率是95億度電限損率是3.5%依照現在工業用度每度電4.3元的話年損是400億欸\n\n15\n00:04:50,151 --> 00:04:53,153\n報告委員這一個的漏死這個是科學的問題那根據專家的報告就是在討論上面專家的報告大概最多會損失到33%\n\n16\n00:05:19,551 --> 00:05:23,114\n那您有算過說假設這條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢多少時間成本嗎?\n\n17\n00:05:38,317 --> 00:05:51,351\n這一個我想他們專家會提供這個資料我現在還在討論有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎我不能理解的是本席給部長一個數據台澎電纜總長度是67.9公里預算那時候花了將近160億元\n\n18\n00:05:57,858 --> 00:05:58,118\n我以為我都沒聽\n\n19\n00:06:21,571 --> 00:06:21,811\n整個海底電纜\n\n20\n00:06:34,787 --> 00:06:37,208\n你這一句話本席不完全同意當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短\n\n21\n00:06:53,544 --> 00:07:12,425\n你後面你總是要上岸吧你台灣你要在哪裡上岸上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎你光溝通要多久你光這個台澎電纜你蓋好之後要上岸那時候溝通了多久你記得嗎所以我記得所以跟我原報告其實整個台澎海纜\n\n22\n00:07:13,246 --> 00:07:14,146\n我現在要提醒部長的是技術面都先不談\n\n23\n00:07:36,328 --> 00:07:55,431\n你只要先去想說您是多麼的重要您是全國經濟的總舵手你一講全部的頭版都是你你會引起多少的不穩定這是本席想要提醒部長的這真的非常的重要而且不只是部長\n\n24\n00:07:56,612 --> 00:08:07,897\n總經理,你們了解嗎?菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區,重點區他自己就常常在跳電,他自己就缺電我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回台灣沒有風險嗎?你同意嗎?你身為台電高層你同意嗎?跟委員報告,所有的工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估那你覺得風險高不高?會不會催化我們的國安?\n\n25\n00:08:24,724 --> 00:08:42,097\n這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道所以我們暫時還不能回答所以本席的建議是為何不好好的盤點我們國內現行的整個能源結構包括我們的綠能再做改進你要去重啟核能都搞不好更實際更快速為什麼要捨盡求遠呢部長\n\n26\n00:08:48,220 --> 00:09:12,692\n報告委員我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續啦齁那我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾我非常抱歉那但是這一個命題如果我們要做這樣子在國外買電的這個這樣的一個方式啊剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠啊或者是不是做電纜這個都有專家會去做我只是說您必須要深思熟慮我現在只是做事前的評估啦齁所以這一點我跟委員報告\n\n27\n00:09:18,135 --> 00:09:25,393\n我們考慮的不是2030年之前的問題而是考慮2050年我又沒有辦法完全淨零檢查部長加油部長加油謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7106\t9388\t主席我想請部長請國部長國部長早安國務院長部長你知道今天這個聯合報跟中國時報您是最佳男主角\n25273\t28575\t就是頭板頭你應該是這個所有部會首長裡面上頭板頭最多的我想要請問一下說要從這個菲律賓購買綠電回台部長說你的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例\n43462\t59541\t但部長請問您知道說新加坡政府其實尚未同意而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工目前僅止於紙上作業您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎?\n61277\t79691\t報告委員這個是我在斯坦明夫的印太智庫上面在智庫上面因為之前有日本的大使有美國的大使然後他們在討論印太區域民主同盟大家互相的幫忙\n80812\t81112\t所以部長您這個念頭\n102068\t113265\t您這個念頭是即興語言嗎?不是一個可成熟的方案,可以實施的方案,只是您純粹即興的語言嗎?報告委員,我想這個是在討論的一個議題,可以討論的一個議題。\n118032\t128454\t也就是說我們居民主同盟的一份子那麼我們來幫助或者是尋求但是您是全國經濟的總舵手你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河你不能把全民當傻瓜如果有盤點過的話部長可以請您揭示一下說大概建制預計要花多少錢那有沒有盤點過說限損率會有多少呢\n146094\t160200\t對剛才委員執教的這個我輕易發言我對你抱歉那我不應該輕易的就是還沒有形成這個個案的部分就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法\n161308\t172677\t那對這一點我比較沒有經驗所以我對我的這個發言我感到抱歉不過這樣的一個議題我個人認為是可以討論的我是可以討論的即使我是部長我也認為關心國內的這個綠能具有競爭力讓國內的廠商在做出口的時候他可以有充分的綠能而且2050年這個本席不反對 完全不反對\n188108\t205778\t但是我也覺得說間接您是不是承認說台灣缺電沒有台灣的電絕對沒有缺電是不是可以告訴我們台灣電力的真相呢不是我現在是這樣子我跟委員報告就是說我們現在努力的目標\n206698\t210320\t就是說讓所有的業者所有的利用台灣的電的業者用電無率用電無率但是你說您為了2030年的這個目標我就覺得很懷疑啊你為什麼要舍近求遠呢上次本席問你說假設重啟核能要多久你說3至5年3至5年才有可能達成這2030的目標你要想這個海底電纜\n233571\t257996\t剛才台電的這個董事長有講他說高壓直流電就是要用這個海底電要用高壓直流電然後雖然高壓直流電的這個限損率只有交流電的一半但是到了台灣你還是要換交流電啊那目前不曉得部長知不知道因為南電北送的問題台灣台電電損一年有幾億度電您知道嗎\n259377\t272856\t這個我想這個都在控制範圍之內啦我跟委員報告剛才那個我跟您報告台底電纜的部分我跟你報告不是我們台電去做啦也不是我們去做啦這個就是會有專家的廠商他們會來做\n273737\t280243\t那他也要會賺錢他才能做阿我先告訴您台電每年的限損率是95億度電限損率是3.5%依照現在工業用度每度電4.3元的話年損是400億欸\n290151\t293153\t報告委員這一個的漏死這個是科學的問題那根據專家的報告就是在討論上面專家的報告大概最多會損失到33%\n319551\t323114\t那您有算過說假設這條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢多少時間成本嗎?\n338317\t351351\t這一個我想他們專家會提供這個資料我現在還在討論有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎我不能理解的是本席給部長一個數據台澎電纜總長度是67.9公里預算那時候花了將近160億元\n357858\t358118\t我以為我都沒聽\n381571\t381811\t整個海底電纜\n394787\t397208\t你這一句話本席不完全同意當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短\n413544\t432425\t你後面你總是要上岸吧你台灣你要在哪裡上岸上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎你光溝通要多久你光這個台澎電纜你蓋好之後要上岸那時候溝通了多久你記得嗎所以我記得所以跟我原報告其實整個台澎海纜\n433246\t434146\t我現在要提醒部長的是技術面都先不談\n456328\t475431\t你只要先去想說您是多麼的重要您是全國經濟的總舵手你一講全部的頭版都是你你會引起多少的不穩定這是本席想要提醒部長的這真的非常的重要而且不只是部長\n476612\t487897\t總經理,你們了解嗎?菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區,重點區他自己就常常在跳電,他自己就缺電我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回台灣沒有風險嗎?你同意嗎?你身為台電高層你同意嗎?跟委員報告,所有的工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估那你覺得風險高不高?會不會催化我們的國安?\n504724\t522097\t這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道所以我們暫時還不能回答所以本席的建議是為何不好好的盤點我們國內現行的整個能源結構包括我們的綠能再做改進你要去重啟核能都搞不好更實際更快速為什麼要捨盡求遠呢部長\n528220\t552692\t報告委員我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續啦齁那我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾我非常抱歉那但是這一個命題如果我們要做這樣子在國外買電的這個這樣的一個方式啊剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠啊或者是不是做電纜這個都有專家會去做我只是說您必須要深思熟慮我現在只是做事前的評估啦齁所以這一點我跟委員報告\n558135\t565393\t我們考慮的不是2030年之前的問題而是考慮2050年我又沒有辦法完全淨零檢查部長加油部長加油謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"主席我想請部長請國部長國部長早安國務院長部長你知道今天這個聯合報跟中國時報您是最佳男主角\n就是頭板頭你應該是這個所有部會首長裡面上頭板頭最多的我想要請問一下說要從這個菲律賓購買綠電回台部長說你的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例\n但部長請問您知道說新加坡政府其實尚未同意而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工目前僅止於紙上作業您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎?\n報告委員這個是我在斯坦明夫的印太智庫上面在智庫上面因為之前有日本的大使有美國的大使然後他們在討論印太區域民主同盟大家互相的幫忙\n所以部長您這個念頭\n您這個念頭是即興語言嗎?不是一個可成熟的方案,可以實施的方案,只是您純粹即興的語言嗎?報告委員,我想這個是在討論的一個議題,可以討論的一個議題。\n也就是說我們居民主同盟的一份子那麼我們來幫助或者是尋求但是您是全國經濟的總舵手你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河你不能把全民當傻瓜如果有盤點過的話部長可以請您揭示一下說大概建制預計要花多少錢那有沒有盤點過說限損率會有多少呢\n對剛才委員執教的這個我輕易發言我對你抱歉那我不應該輕易的就是還沒有形成這個個案的部分就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法\n那對這一點我比較沒有經驗所以我對我的這個發言我感到抱歉不過這樣的一個議題我個人認為是可以討論的我是可以討論的即使我是部長我也認為關心國內的這個綠能具有競爭力讓國內的廠商在做出口的時候他可以有充分的綠能而且2050年這個本席不反對 完全不反對\n但是我也覺得說間接您是不是承認說台灣缺電沒有台灣的電絕對沒有缺電是不是可以告訴我們台灣電力的真相呢不是我現在是這樣子我跟委員報告就是說我們現在努力的目標\n就是說讓所有的業者所有的利用台灣的電的業者用電無率用電無率但是你說您為了2030年的這個目標我就覺得很懷疑啊你為什麼要舍近求遠呢上次本席問你說假設重啟核能要多久你說3至5年3至5年才有可能達成這2030的目標你要想這個海底電纜\n剛才台電的這個董事長有講他說高壓直流電就是要用這個海底電要用高壓直流電然後雖然高壓直流電的這個限損率只有交流電的一半但是到了台灣你還是要換交流電啊那目前不曉得部長知不知道因為南電北送的問題台灣台電電損一年有幾億度電您知道嗎\n這個我想這個都在控制範圍之內啦我跟委員報告剛才那個我跟您報告台底電纜的部分我跟你報告不是我們台電去做啦也不是我們去做啦這個就是會有專家的廠商他們會來做\n那他也要會賺錢他才能做阿我先告訴您台電每年的限損率是95億度電限損率是3.5%依照現在工業用度每度電4.3元的話年損是400億欸\n報告委員這一個的漏死這個是科學的問題那根據專家的報告就是在討論上面專家的報告大概最多會損失到33%\n那您有算過說假設這條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢多少時間成本嗎?\n這一個我想他們專家會提供這個資料我現在還在討論有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎我不能理解的是本席給部長一個數據台澎電纜總長度是67.9公里預算那時候花了將近160億元\n我以為我都沒聽\n整個海底電纜\n你這一句話本席不完全同意當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短\n你後面你總是要上岸吧你台灣你要在哪裡上岸上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎你光溝通要多久你光這個台澎電纜你蓋好之後要上岸那時候溝通了多久你記得嗎所以我記得所以跟我原報告其實整個台澎海纜\n我現在要提醒部長的是技術面都先不談\n你只要先去想說您是多麼的重要您是全國經濟的總舵手你一講全部的頭版都是你你會引起多少的不穩定這是本席想要提醒部長的這真的非常的重要而且不只是部長\n總經理,你們了解嗎?菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區,重點區他自己就常常在跳電,他自己就缺電我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回台灣沒有風險嗎?你同意嗎?你身為台電高層你同意嗎?跟委員報告,所有的工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估那你覺得風險高不高?會不會催化我們的國安?\n這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道所以我們暫時還不能回答所以本席的建議是為何不好好的盤點我們國內現行的整個能源結構包括我們的綠能再做改進你要去重啟核能都搞不好更實際更快速為什麼要捨盡求遠呢部長\n報告委員我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續啦齁那我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾我非常抱歉那但是這一個命題如果我們要做這樣子在國外買電的這個這樣的一個方式啊剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠啊或者是不是做電纜這個都有專家會去做我只是說您必須要深思熟慮我現在只是做事前的評估啦齁所以這一點我跟委員報告\n我們考慮的不是2030年之前的問題而是考慮2050年我又沒有辦法完全淨零檢查部長加油部長加油謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.106 --> 00:09.388\n主席我想請部長請國部長國部長早安國務院長部長你知道今天這個聯合報跟中國時報您是最佳男主角\n\n00:25.273 --> 00:28.575\n就是頭板頭你應該是這個所有部會首長裡面上頭板頭最多的我想要請問一下說要從這個菲律賓購買綠電回台部長說你的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例\n\n00:43.462 --> 00:59.541\n但部長請問您知道說新加坡政府其實尚未同意而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工目前僅止於紙上作業您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎?\n\n01:01.277 --> 01:19.691\n報告委員這個是我在斯坦明夫的印太智庫上面在智庫上面因為之前有日本的大使有美國的大使然後他們在討論印太區域民主同盟大家互相的幫忙\n\n01:20.812 --> 01:21.112\n所以部長您這個念頭\n\n01:42.068 --> 01:53.265\n您這個念頭是即興語言嗎?不是一個可成熟的方案,可以實施的方案,只是您純粹即興的語言嗎?報告委員,我想這個是在討論的一個議題,可以討論的一個議題。\n\n01:58.032 --> 02:08.454\n也就是說我們居民主同盟的一份子那麼我們來幫助或者是尋求但是您是全國經濟的總舵手你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河你不能把全民當傻瓜如果有盤點過的話部長可以請您揭示一下說大概建制預計要花多少錢那有沒有盤點過說限損率會有多少呢\n\n02:26.094 --> 02:40.200\n對剛才委員執教的這個我輕易發言我對你抱歉那我不應該輕易的就是還沒有形成這個個案的部分就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法\n\n02:41.308 --> 02:52.677\n那對這一點我比較沒有經驗所以我對我的這個發言我感到抱歉不過這樣的一個議題我個人認為是可以討論的我是可以討論的即使我是部長我也認為關心國內的這個綠能具有競爭力讓國內的廠商在做出口的時候他可以有充分的綠能而且2050年這個本席不反對完全不反對\n\n03:08.108 --> 03:25.778\n但是我也覺得說間接您是不是承認說台灣缺電沒有台灣的電絕對沒有缺電是不是可以告訴我們台灣電力的真相呢不是我現在是這樣子我跟委員報告就是說我們現在努力的目標\n\n03:26.698 --> 03:30.320\n就是說讓所有的業者所有的利用台灣的電的業者用電無率用電無率但是你說您為了2030年的這個目標我就覺得很懷疑啊你為什麼要舍近求遠呢上次本席問你說假設重啟核能要多久你說3至5年3至5年才有可能達成這2030的目標你要想這個海底電纜\n\n03:53.571 --> 04:17.996\n剛才台電的這個董事長有講他說高壓直流電就是要用這個海底電要用高壓直流電然後雖然高壓直流電的這個限損率只有交流電的一半但是到了台灣你還是要換交流電啊那目前不曉得部長知不知道因為南電北送的問題台灣台電電損一年有幾億度電您知道嗎\n\n04:19.377 --> 04:32.856\n這個我想這個都在控制範圍之內啦我跟委員報告剛才那個我跟您報告台底電纜的部分我跟你報告不是我們台電去做啦也不是我們去做啦這個就是會有專家的廠商他們會來做\n\n04:33.737 --> 04:40.243\n那他也要會賺錢他才能做阿我先告訴您台電每年的限損率是95億度電限損率是3.5%依照現在工業用度每度電4.3元的話年損是400億欸\n\n04:50.151 --> 04:53.153\n報告委員這一個的漏死這個是科學的問題那根據專家的報告就是在討論上面專家的報告大概最多會損失到33%\n\n05:19.551 --> 05:23.114\n那您有算過說假設這條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢多少時間成本嗎?\n\n05:38.317 --> 05:51.351\n這一個我想他們專家會提供這個資料我現在還在討論有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎我不能理解的是本席給部長一個數據台澎電纜總長度是67.9公里預算那時候花了將近160億元\n\n05:57.858 --> 05:58.118\n我以為我都沒聽\n\n06:21.571 --> 06:21.811\n整個海底電纜\n\n06:34.787 --> 06:37.208\n你這一句話本席不完全同意當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短\n\n06:53.544 --> 07:12.425\n你後面你總是要上岸吧你台灣你要在哪裡上岸上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎你光溝通要多久你光這個台澎電纜你蓋好之後要上岸那時候溝通了多久你記得嗎所以我記得所以跟我原報告其實整個台澎海纜\n\n07:13.246 --> 07:14.146\n我現在要提醒部長的是技術面都先不談\n\n07:36.328 --> 07:55.431\n你只要先去想說您是多麼的重要您是全國經濟的總舵手你一講全部的頭版都是你你會引起多少的不穩定這是本席想要提醒部長的這真的非常的重要而且不只是部長\n\n07:56.612 --> 08:07.897\n總經理,你們了解嗎?菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區,重點區他自己就常常在跳電,他自己就缺電我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回台灣沒有風險嗎?你同意嗎?你身為台電高層你同意嗎?跟委員報告,所有的工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估那你覺得風險高不高?會不會催化我們的國安?\n\n08:24.724 --> 08:42.097\n這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道所以我們暫時還不能回答所以本席的建議是為何不好好的盤點我們國內現行的整個能源結構包括我們的綠能再做改進你要去重啟核能都搞不好更實際更快速為什麼要捨盡求遠呢部長\n\n08:48.220 --> 09:12.692\n報告委員我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續啦齁那我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾我非常抱歉那但是這一個命題如果我們要做這樣子在國外買電的這個這樣的一個方式啊剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠啊或者是不是做電纜這個都有專家會去做我只是說您必須要深思熟慮我現在只是做事前的評估啦齁所以這一點我跟委員報告\n\n09:18.135 --> 09:25.393\n我們考慮的不是2030年之前的問題而是考慮2050年我又沒有辦法完全淨零檢查部長加油部長加油謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.106,"end":9.388,"text":"主席我想請部長請國部長國部長早安國務院長部長你知道今天這個聯合報跟中國時報您是最佳男主角"},{"start":25.273,"end":28.575,"text":"就是頭板頭你應該是這個所有部會首長裡面上頭板頭最多的我想要請問一下說要從這個菲律賓購買綠電回台部長說你的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例"},{"start":43.462,"end":59.541,"text":"但部長請問您知道說新加坡政府其實尚未同意而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工目前僅止於紙上作業您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎?"},{"start":61.277,"end":79.691,"text":"報告委員這個是我在斯坦明夫的印太智庫上面在智庫上面因為之前有日本的大使有美國的大使然後他們在討論印太區域民主同盟大家互相的幫忙"},{"start":80.812,"end":81.112,"text":"所以部長您這個念頭"},{"start":102.068,"end":113.265,"text":"您這個念頭是即興語言嗎?不是一個可成熟的方案,可以實施的方案,只是您純粹即興的語言嗎?報告委員,我想這個是在討論的一個議題,可以討論的一個議題。"},{"start":118.032,"end":128.454,"text":"也就是說我們居民主同盟的一份子那麼我們來幫助或者是尋求但是您是全國經濟的總舵手你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河你不能把全民當傻瓜如果有盤點過的話部長可以請您揭示一下說大概建制預計要花多少錢那有沒有盤點過說限損率會有多少呢"},{"start":146.094,"end":160.2,"text":"對剛才委員執教的這個我輕易發言我對你抱歉那我不應該輕易的就是還沒有形成這個個案的部分就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法"},{"start":161.308,"end":172.677,"text":"那對這一點我比較沒有經驗所以我對我的這個發言我感到抱歉不過這樣的一個議題我個人認為是可以討論的我是可以討論的即使我是部長我也認為關心國內的這個綠能具有競爭力讓國內的廠商在做出口的時候他可以有充分的綠能而且2050年這個本席不反對 完全不反對"},{"start":188.108,"end":205.778,"text":"但是我也覺得說間接您是不是承認說台灣缺電沒有台灣的電絕對沒有缺電是不是可以告訴我們台灣電力的真相呢不是我現在是這樣子我跟委員報告就是說我們現在努力的目標"},{"start":206.698,"end":210.32,"text":"就是說讓所有的業者所有的利用台灣的電的業者用電無率用電無率但是你說您為了2030年的這個目標我就覺得很懷疑啊你為什麼要舍近求遠呢上次本席問你說假設重啟核能要多久你說3至5年3至5年才有可能達成這2030的目標你要想這個海底電纜"},{"start":233.571,"end":257.996,"text":"剛才台電的這個董事長有講他說高壓直流電就是要用這個海底電要用高壓直流電然後雖然高壓直流電的這個限損率只有交流電的一半但是到了台灣你還是要換交流電啊那目前不曉得部長知不知道因為南電北送的問題台灣台電電損一年有幾億度電您知道嗎"},{"start":259.377,"end":272.856,"text":"這個我想這個都在控制範圍之內啦我跟委員報告剛才那個我跟您報告台底電纜的部分我跟你報告不是我們台電去做啦也不是我們去做啦這個就是會有專家的廠商他們會來做"},{"start":273.737,"end":280.243,"text":"那他也要會賺錢他才能做阿我先告訴您台電每年的限損率是95億度電限損率是3.5%依照現在工業用度每度電4.3元的話年損是400億欸"},{"start":290.151,"end":293.153,"text":"報告委員這一個的漏死這個是科學的問題那根據專家的報告就是在討論上面專家的報告大概最多會損失到33%"},{"start":319.551,"end":323.114,"text":"那您有算過說假設這條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢多少時間成本嗎?"},{"start":338.317,"end":351.351,"text":"這一個我想他們專家會提供這個資料我現在還在討論有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎我不能理解的是本席給部長一個數據台澎電纜總長度是67.9公里預算那時候花了將近160億元"},{"start":357.858,"end":358.118,"text":"我以為我都沒聽"},{"start":381.571,"end":381.811,"text":"整個海底電纜"},{"start":394.787,"end":397.208,"text":"你這一句話本席不完全同意當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短"},{"start":413.544,"end":432.425,"text":"你後面你總是要上岸吧你台灣你要在哪裡上岸上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎你光溝通要多久你光這個台澎電纜你蓋好之後要上岸那時候溝通了多久你記得嗎所以我記得所以跟我原報告其實整個台澎海纜"},{"start":433.246,"end":434.146,"text":"我現在要提醒部長的是技術面都先不談"},{"start":456.328,"end":475.431,"text":"你只要先去想說您是多麼的重要您是全國經濟的總舵手你一講全部的頭版都是你你會引起多少的不穩定這是本席想要提醒部長的這真的非常的重要而且不只是部長"},{"start":476.612,"end":487.897,"text":"總經理,你們了解嗎?菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區,重點區他自己就常常在跳電,他自己就缺電我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回台灣沒有風險嗎?你同意嗎?你身為台電高層你同意嗎?跟委員報告,所有的工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估那你覺得風險高不高?會不會催化我們的國安?"},{"start":504.724,"end":522.097,"text":"這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道所以我們暫時還不能回答所以本席的建議是為何不好好的盤點我們國內現行的整個能源結構包括我們的綠能再做改進你要去重啟核能都搞不好更實際更快速為什麼要捨盡求遠呢部長"},{"start":528.22,"end":552.692,"text":"報告委員我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續啦齁那我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾我非常抱歉那但是這一個命題如果我們要做這樣子在國外買電的這個這樣的一個方式啊剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠啊或者是不是做電纜這個都有專家會去做我只是說您必須要深思熟慮我現在只是做事前的評估啦齁所以這一點我跟委員報告"},{"start":558.135,"end":565.393,"text":"我們考慮的不是2030年之前的問題而是考慮2050年我又沒有辦法完全淨零檢查部長加油部長加油謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:44:10 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09:53:41","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":155505,"gazette":{"lineno":165,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時44分）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：郭部長早安。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早安。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長知道今天聯合報跟中國時報，您是最佳男主角，就是頭版頭，你應該是所有部會首長裡面上頭版頭最多的，我想要請問一下你說要從菲律賓購買綠電回臺，部長的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例，但部長，請問您知道新加坡政府其實尚未同意，而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准，澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工，目前僅止於紙上作業，您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我在矢板明夫的印太智庫上面，在智庫上面，因為之前有日本的大使、有美國的大使在討論印太區域民主同盟，大家互相幫忙，我們過去大概在討論的時候，會討論到能源互相彼此照顧的問題，所以這個綠電的部分，我們認為就是參考新加坡這個例子，提出一個……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以您覺得它已經是一個案例、例子了？"],["郭部長智輝：一個論述啦！我認為這是一個論述啦！因為這個東西的形成必須要……"],["張委員嘉郡：您這個念頭是即興語言嗎？不是一個成熟、可以實施的方案，只是您純粹即興的語言嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一個是在討論的議題，可以討論的一個議題，也就是說我們區域民主同盟的一分子，我們來幫助或者是尋求……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個本席同意，但是您是全國經濟的總舵手，你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河，你不能把全民當傻瓜！如果有盤點過的話，部長可以揭示一下大概建置預計要花多少錢。有沒有盤點過線損率會有多少呢？"],["郭部長智輝：對於剛才委員指教的這一個，我輕易發言啦，我對你抱歉啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：你不用對我抱歉，你應該要跟全民說清楚！"],["郭部長智輝：我不應該針對還沒有形成這個個案的部分，就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法，對這一點我比較沒有經驗，所以我對我這個發言感到抱歉。不過這樣的一個議題，我個人認為是可以討論的……"],["張委員嘉郡：是可以討論的。"],["郭部長智輝：即使我是部長，我也認為關心國內綠能具有競爭力，讓國內的廠商在出口的時候可以有充分的綠能，而且2050年……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個本席不反對，完全不反對，但是我也覺得您是不是也間接承認臺灣缺電？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，臺灣的電絕對沒有缺電，這個我重新在這個地方跟委員報告……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是可以告訴我們臺灣電力的真相呢？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，現在是這樣子，我跟委員報告，我們現在努力的目標是讓所有利用臺灣電的業者用電無慮。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是您說您為了2030年的這個目標，我就覺得很懷疑，你為什麼要捨近求遠呢？上次本席問你假設重啟核能要多久，你說三至五年。三至五年才有可能達成2030的目標，你要想，關於海底電纜，剛才台電董事長有講，他說海底電纜要用高壓直流電，雖然高壓直流電線損率只有交流電的一半，但是到了臺灣還是要換交流電啊！不曉得部長知不知道，目前因為南電北送的問題，臺灣台電電損一年有幾億度電，您知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個都在控制範圍之內。我跟委員報告，剛才那個……"],["張委員嘉郡：我跟您報告……"],["郭部長智輝：關於海底電纜的部分，我跟你報告，不是台電去做，也不是我們去做，這個會有專家的廠商來做。"],["張委員嘉郡：那他也要會賺錢才能做啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：我先告訴您，台電每年線損率是95億度電，線損率是3.5%，依照現在工業用每度電4.3元的話，年損是400億，從臺灣南電北送就要年損400億，那從菲律賓送上來的電，距離是一整個臺灣的長度，部長有換算過這樣子我們要損失多少電、多少錢嗎？我們負擔得起嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個loss是科學的問題，在討論上，根據專家的報告，大概最多會損失到33%。"],["張委員嘉郡：33%？"],["郭部長智輝：對。但是我買的電是到我們家門口的價格，不會是這個，它loss是它的科技問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：您有算過假設這一條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢？多少時間成本嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我想專家會提供資料，現在還在討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這個……"],["張委員嘉郡：我不能理解的是，本席給部長一個數據，臺澎電纜總長度是67.9公里，那時候預算花了將近160億元，從2005年規劃到完成耗時13年，而且那個水深只有1、200公尺而已，臺灣跟菲律賓之間的水深，我們是隔著巴士海峽，是有海溝的，海底的地形起伏、變化、深度可能有長達2,000至5,000公尺。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我可不可以請總經理來跟你報告？"],["張委員嘉郡：先不談錢好了，只說時間，部長覺得10年蓋得好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我可不可以請總經理跟你報告？"],["張委員嘉郡：好，總經理，你可以說。"],["王總經理耀庭：委員好。整個海底電纜最重要的是施工期間嘛，對不對？"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["王總經理耀庭：施工期間等於是前期的調研工作要先做好，一旦做好之後……"],["張委員嘉郡：你這一句話本席不完全同意，當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短，最後總是要上岸吧，臺灣要在哪裡上岸？上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：你光是溝通要多久？光是這個臺澎電纜蓋好之後要上岸，那時候溝通了多久，你記得嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我記得。"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是比蓋的時間還長？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，其實整個臺澎海纜溝通的時間比施工期長很多。"],["張委員嘉郡：是吧！"],["王總經理耀庭：但那是因為選的位置的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這個海底電纜不用上來嗎？這要從哪裡上來，你告訴我。"],["王總經理耀庭：我們會選一個最適當的……"],["張委員嘉郡：你都沒有去思考它上岸的可能性，然後施工的期間跟它的時間成本怎麼跟得上2030嘛！我現在要提醒部長的是，技術面都先不談，你只要先去想您是多麼的重要，您是全國經濟的總舵手，你一講，全部的頭版都是你，你會引起多少的不穩定，這是本席想要提醒部長的，這真的非常的重要！而且不只是部長，總經理，你們了解嗎？菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區、重點區，它自己就常常在跳電，它自己就缺電，我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回臺灣，沒有風險嗎？你同意嗎？你身為台電高層，你同意嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，所有工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你覺得風險高不高？會不會脆化我們的國安？"],["王總經理耀庭：這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道，所以我們暫時還不能回答這個問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以本席的建議是，為何不好好盤點我們國內現行整個能源結構，包括我們的綠能再改進，你去重啟核能搞不好都更實際、更快速，為什麼要捨近求遠呢？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續，我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾，我非常抱歉！但是這一個命題，如果我們要用在國外買電這樣一個方式，剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠、或者是不是做電纜，這個都有專家會去做。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席沒有反對，我只是說你必須要深思熟慮。"],["郭部長智輝：台電只是做feasibility study，我們現在只是做事前的評估。所以這一點我跟委員報告，我們考慮的不是2030年之前的問題，而是考慮2050年我們有沒有辦法完全淨零減碳。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長加油！部長加油！謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}}