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\"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 518.217, \"end\": 518.237, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,540 --> 00:00:07,701\n謝謝主席我們有請部長部長今天我關心的也是職安的問題因為我們可以看到這幾年來職安的傷亡人數是不減反增特別是在去年這個傷病給付的件數其實是創新高死亡給付的件數也是創新高\n\n2\n00:00:31,556 --> 00:00:59,750\n所以其實我在上半年的時候就針對這個問題其實提出質詢那當然在當中你看到今年特別是上半年旨在死亡人數120人當中銀件業他還是佔了第一名他的這個墜落死亡還是重重之重我們想要優先去處理的問題那你們其實自己也提出了上半年你們就說你們仿照日本有這個銀件墜落打擊年\n\n3\n00:01:00,770 --> 00:01:23,737\n這個口號其實是很響亮這個大家對你們的期許也很高但是執行下來你們前陣子已經對外講了就是今年設定的目標要減少的死亡人數是68人以下但是現在看起來光是到6月份就已經來到40人了所以其實如果按平均半年半年來看\n\n4\n00:01:24,597 --> 00:01:42,088\n今年恐怕是破功了沒有辦法打到這樣一個目標那你們有沒有去檢討為什麼其實你們特別今年還有一個墜落打幾年這樣一個計畫那反而越做這個墜落人數還要比去年就是比你們設定的目標更高為什麼會這樣\n\n5\n00:01:44,076 --> 00:02:01,516\n委員跟您報告我們的人數是有比去年降低可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的原因在哪裡我想知道你們自己初估的原因在哪裡就是跟委員報告確實因為包括營建業本身他的這樣的\n\n6\n00:02:02,757 --> 00:02:02,937\n韓文報告\n\n7\n00:02:20,287 --> 00:02:49,647\n在關於承攬責任上面我們第一個希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任再來他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化用這樣來規避責任就各自負責我們現在要當你平行發包之後你一定要指定其中一個要負主要責任然後統合管理這樣子我們要找一個頭出來要不然每個人都說沒他的事這樣子所以你們現在的墜落打擊你們的宣導對象是誰你們找不到頭\n\n8\n00:02:50,948 --> 00:03:11,028\n目前在實施上面,你們到底是找誰?當然就是各營造工地,然後各業主,我們甚至都把營造業找來。對,都還跟他們開,就是喝咖啡,然後勸導他們。因為其實這個數字會說話嘛,這個證明說你今年上半年施行到現在,恐怕是有漏洞,也不夠落實。\n\n9\n00:03:12,229 --> 00:03:35,826\n雖然你說你們有在做那這個就應該要檢討所以那個檢討不只是你要說你要去修這個治安法那個是原水啦那進火的部分你們自己要通盤檢討到底你們在落實上面出現了什麼問題執行上面是不是都沒有到位你們說有做但是沒有到位嗎你們去宣導接著上班裡面說你們做了很多冊子這個沒有人在看啊\n\n10\n00:03:36,627 --> 00:03:59,975\n就是他沒有進到他真正的SOP裡面這個才是問題所以我要求你們要檢討接下來我就要讓你看到這個個案這個是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾大家在歡度中華民國的國慶但是在雲林產生了重大公安他其實是兩家工廠一死一傷而這兩位都是外籍義工\n\n11\n00:04:00,855 --> 00:04:22,240\n死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍工而這兩家工廠它的特性它都是那種輸送袋然後有一家是這一個水泥預辦廠那這一個水泥預辦廠呢我們去找出這個資料這一家水泥預辦廠它是累犯了它過去在職安裁法的記錄上面累計已經達到4次了\n\n12\n00:04:23,260 --> 00:04:51,983\n那他從2022年就開始2023年2024年今年的1月今年1月還有受到處分喔然後在今年10月這個勞工好險後來他的頭沒有被整個殺死埋掉如果埋掉的話恐怕也是救不回來就是非常的危險所以你可以看到像他這樣類型的公司屬於高風險而且你們已經累累次去裁罰他\n\n13\n00:04:52,944 --> 00:05:15,286\n但是在我們職安法36條像類似這樣子的他如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之餘是可以要求他部分或全部停工但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理是到10月份這個新聞爆出來比較嚴重之後你們才要求勒令停工\n\n14\n00:05:16,047 --> 00:05:38,714\n你們說你們要修職安法那我就問你們光職安法36條你們的這一些職安的檢查措施裁罰停工你們有落實嗎像這樣子的一個公司工廠它其實是高風險你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的而從今年的1月到現在的10月這當中你們又做了什麼\n\n15\n00:05:40,063 --> 00:05:42,144\n他真的有改善嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:42,144 --> 00:06:06,320\n這個個案你瞭解嗎?我可以先請我的署長可以來署長請謝謝委員淳雄這樣子的一般火流場確實是它有一定的風險程度我們過去檢查涉及它如果是有立即危險之虞就會停工那如果沒有涉及危險之虞我們相關法條就處於裁罰3到30萬的條條依照它程度不想增加這是我們一定的標準作為程序那這個個案10月10日當天我們同仁就去做現場的災害調查\n\n17\n00:06:07,321 --> 00:06:33,763\n因為他是在做混凝土的打除的時候老公跟著人跟沙子一起掉進去艙裡面所以後來來搶救人就沒有受傷就把他救回來但是我們發現這個作業程序這個場域上去做就有風險所以我們就把針對這個場域就給他做局部停工所以這個案是像這樣處理的那我們也謝謝委員給我們提醒很多事情我們這個停工處分的那個界線如果我們要再定往嚴格一點我會再召集各檢察機構來做這樣子\n\n18\n00:06:35,922 --> 00:07:03,992\n這個這個才發現的一些討論是不是能夠再做更加講有些委員提醒我覺得齁這個治安署你們應該要針對勞動職場環境他的這個風險你們是要分級的有些就是高風險像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險另外那一起死亡的案例他也是輸送帶他是垃圾回周場他人已經被攪拌那多麼恐怖的事情啊就是他那個整個執行的過程當中沒有一刻你是可以就是有疏忽的\n\n19\n00:07:04,452 --> 00:07:19,033\n一疏忽人不是重傷就是死亡所以類似這一種他只要犯過一次第二次你們就要很嚴格那這一家已經是第4次了所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行坦白講不是只有修法的問題了\n\n20\n00:07:20,034 --> 00:07:37,307\n您們連落實上面SOP的管控上面怎麼樣把這些高風險你說你們後來抓出了營建業這是一類高風險你們有一個墜落打擊你就是按照這個風險程度去做我贊成用這樣的方向做但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠\n\n21\n00:07:38,388 --> 00:07:57,539\n又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收只要有發生過這種死亡重大的你們都應該回過頭好好去檢視你們的整個就是去督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞是不是過於寬鬆你如果過於寬鬆業者不會有警覺\n\n22\n00:07:58,939 --> 00:08:18,601\n但是這件事情我覺得是嚴重的就在國慶日一死一傷都是輸送帶而且另外一個我要提醒移工的教育他們的這個職業安全的教育恐怕都沒有到位這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備我覺得這個是不對的\n\n23\n00:08:20,447 --> 00:08:38,237\n委員我們在移工的部分我們正在強化他的職安位的教育的這樣子的訓練好我希望這個職安其實是重中之重這個部長你要把它視為是你任內很重要的工作一定要積極的去改善降低這個傷亡人數保障我們勞工的安全好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5540\t7701\t謝謝主席我們有請部長部長今天我關心的也是職安的問題因為我們可以看到這幾年來職安的傷亡人數是不減反增特別是在去年這個傷病給付的件數其實是創新高死亡給付的件數也是創新高\n31556\t59750\t所以其實我在上半年的時候就針對這個問題其實提出質詢那當然在當中你看到今年特別是上半年旨在死亡人數120人當中銀件業他還是佔了第一名他的這個墜落死亡還是重重之重我們想要優先去處理的問題那你們其實自己也提出了上半年你們就說你們仿照日本有這個銀件墜落打擊年\n60770\t83737\t這個口號其實是很響亮這個大家對你們的期許也很高但是執行下來你們前陣子已經對外講了就是今年設定的目標要減少的死亡人數是68人以下但是現在看起來光是到6月份就已經來到40人了所以其實如果按平均半年半年來看\n84597\t102088\t今年恐怕是破功了沒有辦法打到這樣一個目標那你們有沒有去檢討為什麼其實你們特別今年還有一個墜落打幾年這樣一個計畫那反而越做這個墜落人數還要比去年就是比你們設定的目標更高為什麼會這樣\n104076\t121516\t委員跟您報告我們的人數是有比去年降低可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的原因在哪裡我想知道你們自己初估的原因在哪裡就是跟委員報告確實因為包括營建業本身他的這樣的\n122757\t122937\t韓文報告\n140287\t169647\t在關於承攬責任上面我們第一個希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任再來他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化用這樣來規避責任就各自負責我們現在要當你平行發包之後你一定要指定其中一個要負主要責任然後統合管理這樣子我們要找一個頭出來要不然每個人都說沒他的事這樣子所以你們現在的墜落打擊你們的宣導對象是誰你們找不到頭\n170948\t191028\t目前在實施上面,你們到底是找誰?當然就是各營造工地,然後各業主,我們甚至都把營造業找來。對,都還跟他們開,就是喝咖啡,然後勸導他們。因為其實這個數字會說話嘛,這個證明說你今年上半年施行到現在,恐怕是有漏洞,也不夠落實。\n192229\t215826\t雖然你說你們有在做那這個就應該要檢討所以那個檢討不只是你要說你要去修這個治安法那個是原水啦那進火的部分你們自己要通盤檢討到底你們在落實上面出現了什麼問題執行上面是不是都沒有到位你們說有做但是沒有到位嗎你們去宣導接著上班裡面說你們做了很多冊子這個沒有人在看啊\n216627\t239975\t就是他沒有進到他真正的SOP裡面這個才是問題所以我要求你們要檢討接下來我就要讓你看到這個個案這個是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾大家在歡度中華民國的國慶但是在雲林產生了重大公安他其實是兩家工廠一死一傷而這兩位都是外籍義工\n240855\t262240\t死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍工而這兩家工廠它的特性它都是那種輸送袋然後有一家是這一個水泥預辦廠那這一個水泥預辦廠呢我們去找出這個資料這一家水泥預辦廠它是累犯了它過去在職安裁法的記錄上面累計已經達到4次了\n263260\t291983\t那他從2022年就開始2023年2024年今年的1月今年1月還有受到處分喔然後在今年10月這個勞工好險後來他的頭沒有被整個殺死埋掉如果埋掉的話恐怕也是救不回來就是非常的危險所以你可以看到像他這樣類型的公司屬於高風險而且你們已經累累次去裁罰他\n292944\t315286\t但是在我們職安法36條像類似這樣子的他如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之餘是可以要求他部分或全部停工但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理是到10月份這個新聞爆出來比較嚴重之後你們才要求勒令停工\n316047\t338714\t你們說你們要修職安法那我就問你們光職安法36條你們的這一些職安的檢查措施裁罰停工你們有落實嗎像這樣子的一個公司工廠它其實是高風險你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的而從今年的1月到現在的10月這當中你們又做了什麼\n340063\t342144\t他真的有改善嗎?\n342144\t366320\t這個個案你瞭解嗎?我可以先請我的署長可以來署長請謝謝委員淳雄這樣子的一般火流場確實是它有一定的風險程度我們過去檢查涉及它如果是有立即危險之虞就會停工那如果沒有涉及危險之虞我們相關法條就處於裁罰3到30萬的條條依照它程度不想增加這是我們一定的標準作為程序那這個個案10月10日當天我們同仁就去做現場的災害調查\n367321\t393763\t因為他是在做混凝土的打除的時候老公跟著人跟沙子一起掉進去艙裡面所以後來來搶救人就沒有受傷就把他救回來但是我們發現這個作業程序這個場域上去做就有風險所以我們就把針對這個場域就給他做局部停工所以這個案是像這樣處理的那我們也謝謝委員給我們提醒很多事情我們這個停工處分的那個界線如果我們要再定往嚴格一點我會再召集各檢察機構來做這樣子\n395922\t423992\t這個這個才發現的一些討論是不是能夠再做更加講有些委員提醒我覺得齁這個治安署你們應該要針對勞動職場環境他的這個風險你們是要分級的有些就是高風險像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險另外那一起死亡的案例他也是輸送帶他是垃圾回周場他人已經被攪拌那多麼恐怖的事情啊就是他那個整個執行的過程當中沒有一刻你是可以就是有疏忽的\n424452\t439033\t一疏忽人不是重傷就是死亡所以類似這一種他只要犯過一次第二次你們就要很嚴格那這一家已經是第4次了所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行坦白講不是只有修法的問題了\n440034\t457307\t您們連落實上面SOP的管控上面怎麼樣把這些高風險你說你們後來抓出了營建業這是一類高風險你們有一個墜落打擊你就是按照這個風險程度去做我贊成用這樣的方向做但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠\n458388\t477539\t又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收只要有發生過這種死亡重大的你們都應該回過頭好好去檢視你們的整個就是去督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞是不是過於寬鬆你如果過於寬鬆業者不會有警覺\n478939\t498601\t但是這件事情我覺得是嚴重的就在國慶日一死一傷都是輸送帶而且另外一個我要提醒移工的教育他們的這個職業安全的教育恐怕都沒有到位這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備我覺得這個是不對的\n500447\t518237\t委員我們在移工的部分我們正在強化他的職安位的教育的這樣子的訓練好我希望這個職安其實是重中之重這個部長你要把它視為是你任內很重要的工作一定要積極的去改善降低這個傷亡人數保障我們勞工的安全好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們有請部長部長今天我關心的也是職安的問題因為我們可以看到這幾年來職安的傷亡人數是不減反增特別是在去年這個傷病給付的件數其實是創新高死亡給付的件數也是創新高\n所以其實我在上半年的時候就針對這個問題其實提出質詢那當然在當中你看到今年特別是上半年旨在死亡人數120人當中銀件業他還是佔了第一名他的這個墜落死亡還是重重之重我們想要優先去處理的問題那你們其實自己也提出了上半年你們就說你們仿照日本有這個銀件墜落打擊年\n這個口號其實是很響亮這個大家對你們的期許也很高但是執行下來你們前陣子已經對外講了就是今年設定的目標要減少的死亡人數是68人以下但是現在看起來光是到6月份就已經來到40人了所以其實如果按平均半年半年來看\n今年恐怕是破功了沒有辦法打到這樣一個目標那你們有沒有去檢討為什麼其實你們特別今年還有一個墜落打幾年這樣一個計畫那反而越做這個墜落人數還要比去年就是比你們設定的目標更高為什麼會這樣\n委員跟您報告我們的人數是有比去年降低可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的原因在哪裡我想知道你們自己初估的原因在哪裡就是跟委員報告確實因為包括營建業本身他的這樣的\n韓文報告\n在關於承攬責任上面我們第一個希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任再來他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化用這樣來規避責任就各自負責我們現在要當你平行發包之後你一定要指定其中一個要負主要責任然後統合管理這樣子我們要找一個頭出來要不然每個人都說沒他的事這樣子所以你們現在的墜落打擊你們的宣導對象是誰你們找不到頭\n目前在實施上面,你們到底是找誰?當然就是各營造工地,然後各業主,我們甚至都把營造業找來。對,都還跟他們開,就是喝咖啡,然後勸導他們。因為其實這個數字會說話嘛,這個證明說你今年上半年施行到現在,恐怕是有漏洞,也不夠落實。\n雖然你說你們有在做那這個就應該要檢討所以那個檢討不只是你要說你要去修這個治安法那個是原水啦那進火的部分你們自己要通盤檢討到底你們在落實上面出現了什麼問題執行上面是不是都沒有到位你們說有做但是沒有到位嗎你們去宣導接著上班裡面說你們做了很多冊子這個沒有人在看啊\n就是他沒有進到他真正的SOP裡面這個才是問題所以我要求你們要檢討接下來我就要讓你看到這個個案這個是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾大家在歡度中華民國的國慶但是在雲林產生了重大公安他其實是兩家工廠一死一傷而這兩位都是外籍義工\n死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍工而這兩家工廠它的特性它都是那種輸送袋然後有一家是這一個水泥預辦廠那這一個水泥預辦廠呢我們去找出這個資料這一家水泥預辦廠它是累犯了它過去在職安裁法的記錄上面累計已經達到4次了\n那他從2022年就開始2023年2024年今年的1月今年1月還有受到處分喔然後在今年10月這個勞工好險後來他的頭沒有被整個殺死埋掉如果埋掉的話恐怕也是救不回來就是非常的危險所以你可以看到像他這樣類型的公司屬於高風險而且你們已經累累次去裁罰他\n但是在我們職安法36條像類似這樣子的他如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之餘是可以要求他部分或全部停工但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理是到10月份這個新聞爆出來比較嚴重之後你們才要求勒令停工\n你們說你們要修職安法那我就問你們光職安法36條你們的這一些職安的檢查措施裁罰停工你們有落實嗎像這樣子的一個公司工廠它其實是高風險你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的而從今年的1月到現在的10月這當中你們又做了什麼\n他真的有改善嗎?\n這個個案你瞭解嗎?我可以先請我的署長可以來署長請謝謝委員淳雄這樣子的一般火流場確實是它有一定的風險程度我們過去檢查涉及它如果是有立即危險之虞就會停工那如果沒有涉及危險之虞我們相關法條就處於裁罰3到30萬的條條依照它程度不想增加這是我們一定的標準作為程序那這個個案10月10日當天我們同仁就去做現場的災害調查\n因為他是在做混凝土的打除的時候老公跟著人跟沙子一起掉進去艙裡面所以後來來搶救人就沒有受傷就把他救回來但是我們發現這個作業程序這個場域上去做就有風險所以我們就把針對這個場域就給他做局部停工所以這個案是像這樣處理的那我們也謝謝委員給我們提醒很多事情我們這個停工處分的那個界線如果我們要再定往嚴格一點我會再召集各檢察機構來做這樣子\n這個這個才發現的一些討論是不是能夠再做更加講有些委員提醒我覺得齁這個治安署你們應該要針對勞動職場環境他的這個風險你們是要分級的有些就是高風險像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險另外那一起死亡的案例他也是輸送帶他是垃圾回周場他人已經被攪拌那多麼恐怖的事情啊就是他那個整個執行的過程當中沒有一刻你是可以就是有疏忽的\n一疏忽人不是重傷就是死亡所以類似這一種他只要犯過一次第二次你們就要很嚴格那這一家已經是第4次了所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行坦白講不是只有修法的問題了\n您們連落實上面SOP的管控上面怎麼樣把這些高風險你說你們後來抓出了營建業這是一類高風險你們有一個墜落打擊你就是按照這個風險程度去做我贊成用這樣的方向做但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠\n又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收只要有發生過這種死亡重大的你們都應該回過頭好好去檢視你們的整個就是去督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞是不是過於寬鬆你如果過於寬鬆業者不會有警覺\n但是這件事情我覺得是嚴重的就在國慶日一死一傷都是輸送帶而且另外一個我要提醒移工的教育他們的這個職業安全的教育恐怕都沒有到位這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備我覺得這個是不對的\n委員我們在移工的部分我們正在強化他的職安位的教育的這樣子的訓練好我希望這個職安其實是重中之重這個部長你要把它視為是你任內很重要的工作一定要積極的去改善降低這個傷亡人數保障我們勞工的安全好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.540 --> 00:07.701\n謝謝主席我們有請部長部長今天我關心的也是職安的問題因為我們可以看到這幾年來職安的傷亡人數是不減反增特別是在去年這個傷病給付的件數其實是創新高死亡給付的件數也是創新高\n\n00:31.556 --> 00:59.750\n所以其實我在上半年的時候就針對這個問題其實提出質詢那當然在當中你看到今年特別是上半年旨在死亡人數120人當中銀件業他還是佔了第一名他的這個墜落死亡還是重重之重我們想要優先去處理的問題那你們其實自己也提出了上半年你們就說你們仿照日本有這個銀件墜落打擊年\n\n01:00.770 --> 01:23.737\n這個口號其實是很響亮這個大家對你們的期許也很高但是執行下來你們前陣子已經對外講了就是今年設定的目標要減少的死亡人數是68人以下但是現在看起來光是到6月份就已經來到40人了所以其實如果按平均半年半年來看\n\n01:24.597 --> 01:42.088\n今年恐怕是破功了沒有辦法打到這樣一個目標那你們有沒有去檢討為什麼其實你們特別今年還有一個墜落打幾年這樣一個計畫那反而越做這個墜落人數還要比去年就是比你們設定的目標更高為什麼會這樣\n\n01:44.076 --> 02:01.516\n委員跟您報告我們的人數是有比去年降低可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的原因在哪裡我想知道你們自己初估的原因在哪裡就是跟委員報告確實因為包括營建業本身他的這樣的\n\n02:02.757 --> 02:02.937\n韓文報告\n\n02:20.287 --> 02:49.647\n在關於承攬責任上面我們第一個希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任再來他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化用這樣來規避責任就各自負責我們現在要當你平行發包之後你一定要指定其中一個要負主要責任然後統合管理這樣子我們要找一個頭出來要不然每個人都說沒他的事這樣子所以你們現在的墜落打擊你們的宣導對象是誰你們找不到頭\n\n02:50.948 --> 03:11.028\n目前在實施上面,你們到底是找誰?當然就是各營造工地,然後各業主,我們甚至都把營造業找來。對,都還跟他們開,就是喝咖啡,然後勸導他們。因為其實這個數字會說話嘛,這個證明說你今年上半年施行到現在,恐怕是有漏洞,也不夠落實。\n\n03:12.229 --> 03:35.826\n雖然你說你們有在做那這個就應該要檢討所以那個檢討不只是你要說你要去修這個治安法那個是原水啦那進火的部分你們自己要通盤檢討到底你們在落實上面出現了什麼問題執行上面是不是都沒有到位你們說有做但是沒有到位嗎你們去宣導接著上班裡面說你們做了很多冊子這個沒有人在看啊\n\n03:36.627 --> 03:59.975\n就是他沒有進到他真正的SOP裡面這個才是問題所以我要求你們要檢討接下來我就要讓你看到這個個案這個是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾大家在歡度中華民國的國慶但是在雲林產生了重大公安他其實是兩家工廠一死一傷而這兩位都是外籍義工\n\n04:00.855 --> 04:22.240\n死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍工而這兩家工廠它的特性它都是那種輸送袋然後有一家是這一個水泥預辦廠那這一個水泥預辦廠呢我們去找出這個資料這一家水泥預辦廠它是累犯了它過去在職安裁法的記錄上面累計已經達到4次了\n\n04:23.260 --> 04:51.983\n那他從2022年就開始2023年2024年今年的1月今年1月還有受到處分喔然後在今年10月這個勞工好險後來他的頭沒有被整個殺死埋掉如果埋掉的話恐怕也是救不回來就是非常的危險所以你可以看到像他這樣類型的公司屬於高風險而且你們已經累累次去裁罰他\n\n04:52.944 --> 05:15.286\n但是在我們職安法36條像類似這樣子的他如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之餘是可以要求他部分或全部停工但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理是到10月份這個新聞爆出來比較嚴重之後你們才要求勒令停工\n\n05:16.047 --> 05:38.714\n你們說你們要修職安法那我就問你們光職安法36條你們的這一些職安的檢查措施裁罰停工你們有落實嗎像這樣子的一個公司工廠它其實是高風險你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的而從今年的1月到現在的10月這當中你們又做了什麼\n\n05:40.063 --> 05:42.144\n他真的有改善嗎?\n\n05:42.144 --> 06:06.320\n這個個案你瞭解嗎?我可以先請我的署長可以來署長請謝謝委員淳雄這樣子的一般火流場確實是它有一定的風險程度我們過去檢查涉及它如果是有立即危險之虞就會停工那如果沒有涉及危險之虞我們相關法條就處於裁罰3到30萬的條條依照它程度不想增加這是我們一定的標準作為程序那這個個案10月10日當天我們同仁就去做現場的災害調查\n\n06:07.321 --> 06:33.763\n因為他是在做混凝土的打除的時候老公跟著人跟沙子一起掉進去艙裡面所以後來來搶救人就沒有受傷就把他救回來但是我們發現這個作業程序這個場域上去做就有風險所以我們就把針對這個場域就給他做局部停工所以這個案是像這樣處理的那我們也謝謝委員給我們提醒很多事情我們這個停工處分的那個界線如果我們要再定往嚴格一點我會再召集各檢察機構來做這樣子\n\n06:35.922 --> 07:03.992\n這個這個才發現的一些討論是不是能夠再做更加講有些委員提醒我覺得齁這個治安署你們應該要針對勞動職場環境他的這個風險你們是要分級的有些就是高風險像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險另外那一起死亡的案例他也是輸送帶他是垃圾回周場他人已經被攪拌那多麼恐怖的事情啊就是他那個整個執行的過程當中沒有一刻你是可以就是有疏忽的\n\n07:04.452 --> 07:19.033\n一疏忽人不是重傷就是死亡所以類似這一種他只要犯過一次第二次你們就要很嚴格那這一家已經是第4次了所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行坦白講不是只有修法的問題了\n\n07:20.034 --> 07:37.307\n您們連落實上面SOP的管控上面怎麼樣把這些高風險你說你們後來抓出了營建業這是一類高風險你們有一個墜落打擊你就是按照這個風險程度去做我贊成用這樣的方向做但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠\n\n07:38.388 --> 07:57.539\n又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收只要有發生過這種死亡重大的你們都應該回過頭好好去檢視你們的整個就是去督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞是不是過於寬鬆你如果過於寬鬆業者不會有警覺\n\n07:58.939 --> 08:18.601\n但是這件事情我覺得是嚴重的就在國慶日一死一傷都是輸送帶而且另外一個我要提醒移工的教育他們的這個職業安全的教育恐怕都沒有到位這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備我覺得這個是不對的\n\n08:20.447 --> 08:38.237\n委員我們在移工的部分我們正在強化他的職安位的教育的這樣子的訓練好我希望這個職安其實是重中之重這個部長你要把它視為是你任內很重要的工作一定要積極的去改善降低這個傷亡人數保障我們勞工的安全好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.54,"end":7.701,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請部長部長今天我關心的也是職安的問題因為我們可以看到這幾年來職安的傷亡人數是不減反增特別是在去年這個傷病給付的件數其實是創新高死亡給付的件數也是創新高"},{"start":31.556,"end":59.75,"text":"所以其實我在上半年的時候就針對這個問題其實提出質詢那當然在當中你看到今年特別是上半年旨在死亡人數120人當中銀件業他還是佔了第一名他的這個墜落死亡還是重重之重我們想要優先去處理的問題那你們其實自己也提出了上半年你們就說你們仿照日本有這個銀件墜落打擊年"},{"start":60.77,"end":83.737,"text":"這個口號其實是很響亮這個大家對你們的期許也很高但是執行下來你們前陣子已經對外講了就是今年設定的目標要減少的死亡人數是68人以下但是現在看起來光是到6月份就已經來到40人了所以其實如果按平均半年半年來看"},{"start":84.597,"end":102.088,"text":"今年恐怕是破功了沒有辦法打到這樣一個目標那你們有沒有去檢討為什麼其實你們特別今年還有一個墜落打幾年這樣一個計畫那反而越做這個墜落人數還要比去年就是比你們設定的目標更高為什麼會這樣"},{"start":104.076,"end":121.516,"text":"委員跟您報告我們的人數是有比去年降低可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的原因在哪裡我想知道你們自己初估的原因在哪裡就是跟委員報告確實因為包括營建業本身他的這樣的"},{"start":122.757,"end":122.937,"text":"韓文報告"},{"start":140.287,"end":169.647,"text":"在關於承攬責任上面我們第一個希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任再來他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化用這樣來規避責任就各自負責我們現在要當你平行發包之後你一定要指定其中一個要負主要責任然後統合管理這樣子我們要找一個頭出來要不然每個人都說沒他的事這樣子所以你們現在的墜落打擊你們的宣導對象是誰你們找不到頭"},{"start":170.948,"end":191.028,"text":"目前在實施上面,你們到底是找誰?當然就是各營造工地,然後各業主,我們甚至都把營造業找來。對,都還跟他們開,就是喝咖啡,然後勸導他們。因為其實這個數字會說話嘛,這個證明說你今年上半年施行到現在,恐怕是有漏洞,也不夠落實。"},{"start":192.229,"end":215.826,"text":"雖然你說你們有在做那這個就應該要檢討所以那個檢討不只是你要說你要去修這個治安法那個是原水啦那進火的部分你們自己要通盤檢討到底你們在落實上面出現了什麼問題執行上面是不是都沒有到位你們說有做但是沒有到位嗎你們去宣導接著上班裡面說你們做了很多冊子這個沒有人在看啊"},{"start":216.627,"end":239.975,"text":"就是他沒有進到他真正的SOP裡面這個才是問題所以我要求你們要檢討接下來我就要讓你看到這個個案這個是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾大家在歡度中華民國的國慶但是在雲林產生了重大公安他其實是兩家工廠一死一傷而這兩位都是外籍義工"},{"start":240.855,"end":262.24,"text":"死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍工而這兩家工廠它的特性它都是那種輸送袋然後有一家是這一個水泥預辦廠那這一個水泥預辦廠呢我們去找出這個資料這一家水泥預辦廠它是累犯了它過去在職安裁法的記錄上面累計已經達到4次了"},{"start":263.26,"end":291.983,"text":"那他從2022年就開始2023年2024年今年的1月今年1月還有受到處分喔然後在今年10月這個勞工好險後來他的頭沒有被整個殺死埋掉如果埋掉的話恐怕也是救不回來就是非常的危險所以你可以看到像他這樣類型的公司屬於高風險而且你們已經累累次去裁罰他"},{"start":292.944,"end":315.286,"text":"但是在我們職安法36條像類似這樣子的他如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之餘是可以要求他部分或全部停工但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理是到10月份這個新聞爆出來比較嚴重之後你們才要求勒令停工"},{"start":316.047,"end":338.714,"text":"你們說你們要修職安法那我就問你們光職安法36條你們的這一些職安的檢查措施裁罰停工你們有落實嗎像這樣子的一個公司工廠它其實是高風險你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的而從今年的1月到現在的10月這當中你們又做了什麼"},{"start":340.063,"end":342.144,"text":"他真的有改善嗎?"},{"start":342.144,"end":366.32,"text":"這個個案你瞭解嗎?我可以先請我的署長可以來署長請謝謝委員淳雄這樣子的一般火流場確實是它有一定的風險程度我們過去檢查涉及它如果是有立即危險之虞就會停工那如果沒有涉及危險之虞我們相關法條就處於裁罰3到30萬的條條依照它程度不想增加這是我們一定的標準作為程序那這個個案10月10日當天我們同仁就去做現場的災害調查"},{"start":367.321,"end":393.763,"text":"因為他是在做混凝土的打除的時候老公跟著人跟沙子一起掉進去艙裡面所以後來來搶救人就沒有受傷就把他救回來但是我們發現這個作業程序這個場域上去做就有風險所以我們就把針對這個場域就給他做局部停工所以這個案是像這樣處理的那我們也謝謝委員給我們提醒很多事情我們這個停工處分的那個界線如果我們要再定往嚴格一點我會再召集各檢察機構來做這樣子"},{"start":395.922,"end":423.992,"text":"這個這個才發現的一些討論是不是能夠再做更加講有些委員提醒我覺得齁這個治安署你們應該要針對勞動職場環境他的這個風險你們是要分級的有些就是高風險像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險另外那一起死亡的案例他也是輸送帶他是垃圾回周場他人已經被攪拌那多麼恐怖的事情啊就是他那個整個執行的過程當中沒有一刻你是可以就是有疏忽的"},{"start":424.452,"end":439.033,"text":"一疏忽人不是重傷就是死亡所以類似這一種他只要犯過一次第二次你們就要很嚴格那這一家已經是第4次了所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行坦白講不是只有修法的問題了"},{"start":440.034,"end":457.307,"text":"您們連落實上面SOP的管控上面怎麼樣把這些高風險你說你們後來抓出了營建業這是一類高風險你們有一個墜落打擊你就是按照這個風險程度去做我贊成用這樣的方向做但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠"},{"start":458.388,"end":477.539,"text":"又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收只要有發生過這種死亡重大的你們都應該回過頭好好去檢視你們的整個就是去督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞是不是過於寬鬆你如果過於寬鬆業者不會有警覺"},{"start":478.939,"end":498.601,"text":"但是這件事情我覺得是嚴重的就在國慶日一死一傷都是輸送帶而且另外一個我要提醒移工的教育他們的這個職業安全的教育恐怕都沒有到位這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備我覺得這個是不對的"},{"start":500.447,"end":518.237,"text":"委員我們在移工的部分我們正在強化他的職安位的教育的這樣子的訓練好我希望這個職安其實是重中之重這個部長你要把它視為是你任內很重要的工作一定要積極的去改善降低這個傷亡人數保障我們勞工的安全好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:45:52 - 09:54:33","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":155506,"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時45分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，今天我關心的也是職安的問題，我們可以看到這幾年來，在職安方面，傷亡人數是不減反增，特別是在去年，傷病給付的件數其實是創新高，死亡給付的件數也是創新高，所以其實我在上半年的時候就有針對這個問題提出質詢。這當中你看到今年特別是上半年，職災死亡人數120人當中，營建業還是占了第一名，它的墜落死亡還是重中之重，是我們想要優先去處理的問題。你們其實自己也有提出，上半年你們就說你們仿照日本有營建墜落打擊年，這個口號其實是很響亮，大家對你們的期許也很高，但是執行下來，你們前陣子已經對外講了，就是今年設定的目標是要減少至死亡人數68人以下，但是現在看起來，光是到6月份就已經來到40人，所以如果按平均半年、半年來看，今年恐怕是破功了，沒有辦法達到這樣的目標，你們有沒有去檢討？其實你們今年特別還有一個墜落打擊年的計畫，反而越做，墜落人數還比你們設定的目標更高，為什麼會這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，跟您報告，人數是有比去年降低，可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的目標值。"],["王委員育敏：原因在哪裡？我想知道你們自己粗估的原因在哪裡。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，確實，包括營建業本身這樣的產業型態，包括它的施工文化，都是我們現在正在致力於職安法趕快修法，我們希望……"],["王委員育敏：你們修法的明確內容是什麼？你們要賦予營建業者什麼樣的責任？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，第一個，在關於承攬責任上，我們希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任；再來，他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化，用這樣來規避責任，就是各自負責，我們現在要規定，當你平行發包之後，你一定要指定其中一個負主要責任，然後統合管理，我們要找一個頭出來，要不然每個人都說沒他的事，這也是導致……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們現在的墜落打擊年的宣導對象是誰？你們找不到頭，你們目前在實施上面到底是找誰？"],["何部長佩珊：當然是有，就是各營造工地，然後各業主，我們甚至都把營造業找來，都還跟他們喝咖啡，然後勸導他們。"],["王委員育敏：因為其實數字會說話，證明你今年上半年施行到現在，恐怕是有漏洞，也不夠落實，雖然你說你們有在做，這就應該要檢討，所以這個檢討不只是你說你要去修職安法，那個是遠水；近火的部分，你們自己應該要通盤檢討，到底你們在落實上面出現什麼問題……"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。"],["王委員育敏：執行上面是不是都沒有到位？你們說有做，但是沒有到位，你們去宣導，我記得上半年你們說有做了很多冊子，但冊子可能都沒有人在看啊，就是並沒有進到真正的SOP裡面，這個才是問題，所以我要求你們要檢討。","接下來我就要讓你看這個個案，這是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾的事，大家在歡度中華民國的國慶，但是在雲林發生了重大工安事件，兩家工廠一死一傷，而這兩位都是外籍移工，死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍移工，而這兩家工廠的特性都是輸送帶，有一家是水泥預拌廠。我們去找出這個水泥預拌廠的資料，這一家水泥預拌廠是累犯，它過去在職安裁罰的紀錄上面已經累計達到四次了，它從2022年就開始，2023年、2024年，今年的1月還有受到處分，然後在今年10月，好險這個勞工的頭沒有被整個沙石埋掉，如果埋掉的話，恐怕也是救不回來，就是非常的危險！","所以你可以看到像它這樣類型的公司屬於高風險，而且你們已經累次去裁罰它，但是依職安法第三十六條規定，像類似這樣子的，它如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之虞是可以要求它部分或全部停工，但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理，是到10月份這個新聞報導出來比較嚴重之後，你們才要求勒令停工。你們說你們要修職安法，那我就問你，光是職安法第三十六條的職安檢查措施、裁罰、停工，你們有落實嗎？像這樣子的一個公司、工廠其實是高風險，你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的？而從今年的1月到現在的10月，這當中你們又做了什麼？他真的有改善嗎？這個個案你了解嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可不可以先請我的署長來回答？"],["王委員育敏：可以，來，署長請。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員垂詢，這樣子的預拌混凝土廠確實有一定的風險程度，我們過去檢查的時候如果有涉及立即危險之虞就會停工；如果沒有涉及危險之虞，違反我們的相關法條就處以裁罰3到30萬，依照他的風險程度來增加，這是我們一定的標準作業程序。","這個個案10月10號當天我們同仁就去做現場的災害調查，因為他是在做混凝土打除作業的時候，人跟著砂石一起掉入倉裡面，所以後來搶救，人沒有受傷、就把他救回來，但是我們發現這個作業程序、這個場域上去做就有風險，所以我們就針對這個場域局部停工，這個案子是這樣處理的。也謝謝委員給我們提醒，關於停工處分的那個界線，如果我們要再訂嚴格一點，我會再召集各檢查機構來做裁罰線的一些討論，看看是不是能夠再更加強。也謝謝委員提醒。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得職安署應該要針對勞動職場環境的風險進行分級，有一些就是高風險，像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險。另外一起死亡的案例也是輸送帶，那是垃圾回收場，他人已經被攪拌，這是多麼恐怖的事情啊！那整個執行過程當中沒有一刻是可以疏忽的，一疏忽人不是重傷就是死亡！","所以類似這種，他只要犯過一次，第二次你們就要很嚴格，那這一家已經是第四次了，所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行，坦白講，不是只有修法的問題，你們連在落實上、SOP的管控上要怎麼樣把這些高風險……你說你們後來抓出了營建業，這是一類高風險，你們有一個墜落打擊年，就是按照這個風險程度去做，我贊成用這樣的方向做。但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠，又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收，只要有發生過這種死亡、重大的，你們都應該要回過頭好好去檢視你們整個督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞、是不是過於寬鬆？你如果過於寬鬆，業者不會有警覺啊！這一件事情我覺得是嚴重的，就在國慶日一死一傷、都是輸送帶。","而且另外一個我要提醒，移工職業安全教育恐怕都沒有到位，這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做，結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備，我覺得這個是不對的！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們在移工的部分正在強化他的職安衛教育訓練。"],["王委員育敏：好，職安其實是重中之重，這部分部長你要把它視為是你任內很重要的工作。"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["王委員育敏：一定要積極改善、降低傷亡人數、保障我們勞工的安全，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}}