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0.944}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 736.572, \"end\": 736.833, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"彥\"}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 736.833, \"end\": 736.853, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,711 --> 00:00:04,805\n謝謝麻煩請國安局海巡署有請蔡局長海巡署\n\n2\n00:00:12,426 --> 00:00:29,965\n局長跟署長我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位會有很多事件我舉個例子在今年的6月份中國的快艇直闖淡水河當然淡水河對我們來講是我們未需作戰非常重要的愛口\n\n3\n00:00:30,606 --> 00:00:52,342\n那邊有淡水大營然後進來之後可以到我們的水門就到總統府中樞的附近所以當時大家是很嚴肅看這個事情我們漢光演習不管幾號的演習沿著這條河我們都有重兵在部署那當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河劃分上海巡署我們這個應該是\n\n4\n00:00:54,403 --> 00:01:12,811\n在權責上24海里以內就12海里以內應該是你們的權責吧是好那這裡面有一些精進啊什麼我要請教你但是我想到那個巫婆的糖果屋跟森林的麵包屑也就是說我們說看一個麵包屑它就是一個麵包屑\n\n5\n00:01:14,051 --> 00:01:33,770\n但是麵包屑不要被野獸吃掉一個點一個點點一個點連起來可以把它導向我們要的地方這就是情報分析嘛所以我們把它拉開來看我現在排列的也許只是時間序列不見得是因果關係在2021年4月30號台中港西碼頭有一個軍規的橡皮艇\n\n6\n00:01:34,792 --> 00:01:37,237\n當時在4月份呢共建航母這一個遼寧號跟五艘軍艦呢在台海周邊演習\n\n7\n00:01:47,366 --> 00:02:05,973\n後來在2022年的6月11號臺東的富岡漁港那個時候有水上摩托車有橡皮艇等等也有類似這樣的事件當時是聯合警巡然後到今年的523聯合利建A\n\n8\n00:02:07,298 --> 00:02:12,881\n首先我要請教海巡署跟國安局之前那幾件目前偵辦調查的狀況進度可不可以讓我們知道一下\n\n9\n00:02:30,072 --> 00:02:56,902\n我先整體說明一下再請署長來做細節的補充就一旦發生到中國的偷渡客的案件之後一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦那再送請地方法院來進行偵處那以最後的那個淡水的那個案子一審已經宣判就是判刑8個月但是當事人在那個是指非法入境偷渡的部分我現在講的是國家安全情資情報的部分是這一些東西\n\n10\n00:02:58,550 --> 00:03:19,213\n有沒有去研判他跟我們國家安全或者試探軍情有所關係有沒有因果關係我們在做相關的判斷因為當事人都會有些說辭我們必須要針對他的說辭來做一些釐清再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品以及傳播國安局現在整合所有情報機關你們目前研判起來\n\n11\n00:03:20,874 --> 00:03:21,894\n有沒有那樣的跡象?\n\n12\n00:03:44,683 --> 00:03:59,612\n所以這個我說國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來有沒有跟國安關係或者中國受益的因果關係有沒有這樣的跡象\n\n13\n00:04:00,272 --> 00:04:17,902\n對這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在那海巡署你們目前像臺中港西碼頭那一個用軍規的橡皮艇啪一下跑到我們臺中港那臺中港在我們未需作戰在我們國土保衛戰裡面是一個重要的點嘛你們那個案子現在有沒有新的進度\n\n14\n00:04:19,323 --> 00:04:46,521\n跟委員報告那這個案子我們現在研判起來他是用小型的快艇跟跟這一個這一個那個我知道因為報紙有寫嘛他小型快艇然後衝進來然後我們這個最後面的研判的分析的結果就是剛剛跟那個國安局蔡局長講的部分就是非常一致的就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們台灣可能\n\n15\n00:04:49,544 --> 00:05:01,353\n我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議因為我們的偷渡這種非法入境的刑責很低它的代價很小\n\n16\n00:05:03,089 --> 00:05:27,474\n反過來我們這邊要不然我們叫張榮鑫署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看你看要關多久關到誰知不知所以他的代價低試探的成本很低所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他的跡象的話我們應該援引更嚴的更重的法律來制裁他來遏止這個情形這是一個第二個我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為啊\n\n17\n00:05:28,434 --> 00:05:55,725\n海上的船那麼多有的有AIS有的AIS發報又是錯誤的然後呢漁船有50艘100艘有一個快艇迫近進來你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生跟委員報告齁那針對這部分我們會跟國安隊相關單位做聯合情見證部分那另外一部分因為你聯合情見證什麼部分過去也有聯合難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎有有有有有有他跑進來啦有沒有什麼作為去防止\n\n18\n00:05:56,105 --> 00:06:16,675\n我們現在的作為就是我們要提升我們雷達的徵收效能那從這幾個案例這個顯示我們現在現有的所有的雷達包括徵收裝備它對於小型目標掌握它是有它的盲點的部分雷達有盲點是那但是剛好我岳父是漁民啊近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎\n\n19\n00:06:18,359 --> 00:06:40,287\n你看到了你怎麼辨別它又不是大家都有開AIS有的AIS還買MadeinChina打開來的顯示還不對的你怎麼辨別跟委員報告目前我們現在跟港港局還有約束在推動就是在114年會全部在不管是20噸以下20噸以下的這個所有傳播要求要裝AIS\n\n20\n00:06:41,687 --> 00:06:57,434\n那這個部門會在114年的時候完成?這個人是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛我提醒就是說有些科技比如說無人機我前兩天去中科院看瑞淵2當然那是軍規的你們不用買到那麼貴那麼好的\n\n21\n00:06:58,214 --> 00:07:11,356\n他可以在空中俯視同時掃到所有的大小型船艦然後用AI去辨別他到底是明確的或不明的C4ISR要整合通報回來\n\n22\n00:07:12,728 --> 00:07:13,048\n海巡署\n\n23\n00:07:40,987 --> 00:08:04,258\n那個蔡局長現在我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對例件A啦或者是例件B我要請教是我們現在中共的聯合戰備警詢幾乎已經常態化了嘛那它常態化的狀態下在可以揭露的情形下有沒有新的樣態國人需要注意的\n\n24\n00:08:05,695 --> 00:08:14,321\n對,就鄭委員所提到的聯合戰備警訊中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化大概平均下來每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警訊每週一次規模大概多大他大概在\n\n25\n00:08:23,999 --> 00:08:24,159\n王定宇\n\n26\n00:08:47,686 --> 00:08:50,229\n他有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡?是是你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦?\n\n27\n00:09:02,363 --> 00:09:03,904\n他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號的?型號的部分都...我記得有三...戰級?一般?\n\n28\n00:09:26,616 --> 00:09:27,858\n兩位先求我最後一個問題來問一下調查局長\n\n29\n00:09:48,903 --> 00:10:15,135\n局長你邊走邊聽陳局長你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處的處長而且你查查共諜的績效非常好曾經在一年內有20件盡力而為這個是你的職責你不行要盡力而為你要做到那我現在請教的是現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪常常跟洗錢有關因為它要有金流所以我把握最後跟主席借一分鐘\n\n30\n00:10:16,275 --> 00:10:31,810\n我們在洗錢防治上或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟那他們在定義的FinancialIntelligenceUnit也就是說金融的情資單位FIU我們國家定義就是你嘛就是大家局\n\n31\n00:10:34,011 --> 00:11:00,369\n那我請教過去一年來我們有沒有異常的接受不管相關的友盟相關的團體或者是這個愛格盟等等異常的通報有有我接受異常通報有有在這個愛格盟聯盟裡面的會員彼此都會對於一些異常的金流會有一些情報的交換在過去這一年有那我舉個例子\n\n32\n00:11:01,806 --> 00:11:23,025\n在特定的政治人物特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流目前沒有發現那化整為零的網路平台的donate你們能不能掌握這個部分比較不會是在艾格蒙聯盟通報艾格蒙聯盟是金融活動那個是另外一個洗錢的管道\n\n33\n00:11:23,806 --> 00:11:30,449\n目前在金流的查處部分在有關這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難因為這個必須要這些網路的母公司在國際的這些公司的配合你們有沒有在處理\n\n34\n00:11:48,917 --> 00:12:14,691\n我們現在正在努力因為我們要勾結他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來那一塊變黑洞啊另外賭盤的地下金流詐騙集團的地下金流你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎這個部分是其中一個部分而已賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流他們的流通的管道有很多像現在目前比較科技化的是會用虛擬貨幣\n\n35\n00:12:16,212 --> 00:12:16,853\n蔡明彥率\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n711\t4805\t謝謝麻煩請國安局海巡署有請蔡局長海巡署\n12426\t29965\t局長跟署長我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位會有很多事件我舉個例子在今年的6月份中國的快艇直闖淡水河當然淡水河對我們來講是我們未需作戰非常重要的愛口\n30606\t52342\t那邊有淡水大營然後進來之後可以到我們的水門就到總統府中樞的附近所以當時大家是很嚴肅看這個事情我們漢光演習不管幾號的演習沿著這條河我們都有重兵在部署那當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河劃分上海巡署我們這個應該是\n54403\t72811\t在權責上24海里以內就12海里以內應該是你們的權責吧是好那這裡面有一些精進啊什麼我要請教你但是我想到那個巫婆的糖果屋跟森林的麵包屑也就是說我們說看一個麵包屑它就是一個麵包屑\n74051\t93770\t但是麵包屑不要被野獸吃掉一個點一個點點一個點連起來可以把它導向我們要的地方這就是情報分析嘛所以我們把它拉開來看我現在排列的也許只是時間序列不見得是因果關係在2021年4月30號台中港西碼頭有一個軍規的橡皮艇\n94792\t97237\t當時在4月份呢共建航母這一個遼寧號跟五艘軍艦呢在台海周邊演習\n107366\t125973\t後來在2022年的6月11號臺東的富岡漁港那個時候有水上摩托車有橡皮艇等等也有類似這樣的事件當時是聯合警巡然後到今年的523聯合利建A\n127298\t132881\t首先我要請教海巡署跟國安局之前那幾件目前偵辦調查的狀況進度可不可以讓我們知道一下\n150072\t176902\t我先整體說明一下再請署長來做細節的補充就一旦發生到中國的偷渡客的案件之後一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦那再送請地方法院來進行偵處那以最後的那個淡水的那個案子一審已經宣判就是判刑8個月但是當事人在那個是指非法入境偷渡的部分我現在講的是國家安全情資情報的部分是這一些東西\n178550\t199213\t有沒有去研判他跟我們國家安全或者試探軍情有所關係有沒有因果關係我們在做相關的判斷因為當事人都會有些說辭我們必須要針對他的說辭來做一些釐清再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品以及傳播國安局現在整合所有情報機關你們目前研判起來\n200874\t201894\t有沒有那樣的跡象?\n224683\t239612\t所以這個我說國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來有沒有跟國安關係或者中國受益的因果關係有沒有這樣的跡象\n240272\t257902\t對這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在那海巡署你們目前像臺中港西碼頭那一個用軍規的橡皮艇啪一下跑到我們臺中港那臺中港在我們未需作戰在我們國土保衛戰裡面是一個重要的點嘛你們那個案子現在有沒有新的進度\n259323\t286521\t跟委員報告那這個案子我們現在研判起來他是用小型的快艇跟跟這一個這一個那個我知道因為報紙有寫嘛他小型快艇然後衝進來然後我們這個最後面的研判的分析的結果就是剛剛跟那個國安局蔡局長講的部分就是非常一致的就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們台灣可能\n289544\t301353\t我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議因為我們的偷渡這種非法入境的刑責很低它的代價很小\n303089\t327474\t反過來我們這邊要不然我們叫張榮鑫署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看你看要關多久關到誰知不知所以他的代價低試探的成本很低所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他的跡象的話我們應該援引更嚴的更重的法律來制裁他來遏止這個情形這是一個第二個我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為啊\n328434\t355725\t海上的船那麼多有的有AIS有的AIS發報又是錯誤的然後呢漁船有50艘100艘有一個快艇迫近進來你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生跟委員報告齁那針對這部分我們會跟國安隊相關單位做聯合情見證部分那另外一部分因為你聯合情見證什麼部分過去也有聯合難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎有有有有有有他跑進來啦有沒有什麼作為去防止\n356105\t376675\t我們現在的作為就是我們要提升我們雷達的徵收效能那從這幾個案例這個顯示我們現在現有的所有的雷達包括徵收裝備它對於小型目標掌握它是有它的盲點的部分雷達有盲點是那但是剛好我岳父是漁民啊近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎\n378359\t400287\t你看到了你怎麼辨別它又不是大家都有開AIS有的AIS還買Made in China打開來的顯示還不對的你怎麼辨別跟委員報告目前我們現在跟港港局還有約束在推動就是在114年會全部在不管是20噸以下20噸以下的這個所有傳播要求要裝AIS\n401687\t417434\t那這個部門會在114年的時候完成?這個人是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛我提醒就是說有些科技比如說無人機我前兩天去中科院看瑞淵2當然那是軍規的你們不用買到那麼貴那麼好的\n418214\t431356\t他可以在空中俯視同時掃到所有的大小型船艦然後用AI去辨別他到底是明確的或不明的C4ISR要整合通報回來\n432728\t433048\t海巡署\n460987\t484258\t那個蔡局長現在我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對例件A啦或者是例件B我要請教是我們現在中共的聯合戰備警詢幾乎已經常態化了嘛那它常態化的狀態下在可以揭露的情形下有沒有新的樣態國人需要注意的\n485695\t494321\t對,就鄭委員所提到的聯合戰備警訊中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化大概平均下來每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警訊每週一次規模大概多大他大概在\n503999\t504159\t王定宇\n527686\t530229\t他有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡?是是你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦?\n542363\t543904\t他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號的?型號的部分都...我記得有三...戰級?一般?\n566616\t567858\t兩位先求我最後一個問題來問一下調查局長\n588903\t615135\t局長你邊走邊聽陳局長你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處的處長而且你查查共諜的績效非常好曾經在一年內有20件盡力而為這個是你的職責你不行要盡力而為你要做到那我現在請教的是現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪常常跟洗錢有關因為它要有金流所以我把握最後跟主席借一分鐘\n616275\t631810\t我們在洗錢防治上或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟那他們在定義的Financial Intelligence Unit也就是說金融的情資單位FIU我們國家定義就是你嘛就是大家局\n634011\t660369\t那我請教過去一年來我們有沒有異常的接受不管相關的友盟相關的團體或者是這個愛格盟等等異常的通報有有我接受異常通報有有在這個愛格盟聯盟裡面的會員彼此都會對於一些異常的金流會有一些情報的交換在過去這一年有那我舉個例子\n661806\t683025\t在特定的政治人物特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流目前沒有發現那化整為零的網路平台的donate你們能不能掌握這個部分比較不會是在艾格蒙聯盟通報艾格蒙聯盟是金融活動那個是另外一個洗錢的管道\n683806\t690449\t目前在金流的查處部分在有關這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難因為這個必須要這些網路的母公司在國際的這些公司的配合你們有沒有在處理\n708917\t734691\t我們現在正在努力因為我們要勾結他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來那一塊變黑洞啊另外賭盤的地下金流詐騙集團的地下金流你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎這個部分是其中一個部分而已賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流他們的流通的管道有很多像現在目前比較科技化的是會用虛擬貨幣\n736212\t736853\t蔡明彥率\n","txt":"謝謝麻煩請國安局海巡署有請蔡局長海巡署\n局長跟署長我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位會有很多事件我舉個例子在今年的6月份中國的快艇直闖淡水河當然淡水河對我們來講是我們未需作戰非常重要的愛口\n那邊有淡水大營然後進來之後可以到我們的水門就到總統府中樞的附近所以當時大家是很嚴肅看這個事情我們漢光演習不管幾號的演習沿著這條河我們都有重兵在部署那當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河劃分上海巡署我們這個應該是\n在權責上24海里以內就12海里以內應該是你們的權責吧是好那這裡面有一些精進啊什麼我要請教你但是我想到那個巫婆的糖果屋跟森林的麵包屑也就是說我們說看一個麵包屑它就是一個麵包屑\n但是麵包屑不要被野獸吃掉一個點一個點點一個點連起來可以把它導向我們要的地方這就是情報分析嘛所以我們把它拉開來看我現在排列的也許只是時間序列不見得是因果關係在2021年4月30號台中港西碼頭有一個軍規的橡皮艇\n當時在4月份呢共建航母這一個遼寧號跟五艘軍艦呢在台海周邊演習\n後來在2022年的6月11號臺東的富岡漁港那個時候有水上摩托車有橡皮艇等等也有類似這樣的事件當時是聯合警巡然後到今年的523聯合利建A\n首先我要請教海巡署跟國安局之前那幾件目前偵辦調查的狀況進度可不可以讓我們知道一下\n我先整體說明一下再請署長來做細節的補充就一旦發生到中國的偷渡客的案件之後一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦那再送請地方法院來進行偵處那以最後的那個淡水的那個案子一審已經宣判就是判刑8個月但是當事人在那個是指非法入境偷渡的部分我現在講的是國家安全情資情報的部分是這一些東西\n有沒有去研判他跟我們國家安全或者試探軍情有所關係有沒有因果關係我們在做相關的判斷因為當事人都會有些說辭我們必須要針對他的說辭來做一些釐清再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品以及傳播國安局現在整合所有情報機關你們目前研判起來\n有沒有那樣的跡象?\n所以這個我說國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來有沒有跟國安關係或者中國受益的因果關係有沒有這樣的跡象\n對這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在那海巡署你們目前像臺中港西碼頭那一個用軍規的橡皮艇啪一下跑到我們臺中港那臺中港在我們未需作戰在我們國土保衛戰裡面是一個重要的點嘛你們那個案子現在有沒有新的進度\n跟委員報告那這個案子我們現在研判起來他是用小型的快艇跟跟這一個這一個那個我知道因為報紙有寫嘛他小型快艇然後衝進來然後我們這個最後面的研判的分析的結果就是剛剛跟那個國安局蔡局長講的部分就是非常一致的就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們台灣可能\n我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議因為我們的偷渡這種非法入境的刑責很低它的代價很小\n反過來我們這邊要不然我們叫張榮鑫署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看你看要關多久關到誰知不知所以他的代價低試探的成本很低所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他的跡象的話我們應該援引更嚴的更重的法律來制裁他來遏止這個情形這是一個第二個我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為啊\n海上的船那麼多有的有AIS有的AIS發報又是錯誤的然後呢漁船有50艘100艘有一個快艇迫近進來你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生跟委員報告齁那針對這部分我們會跟國安隊相關單位做聯合情見證部分那另外一部分因為你聯合情見證什麼部分過去也有聯合難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎有有有有有有他跑進來啦有沒有什麼作為去防止\n我們現在的作為就是我們要提升我們雷達的徵收效能那從這幾個案例這個顯示我們現在現有的所有的雷達包括徵收裝備它對於小型目標掌握它是有它的盲點的部分雷達有盲點是那但是剛好我岳父是漁民啊近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎\n你看到了你怎麼辨別它又不是大家都有開AIS有的AIS還買Made in China打開來的顯示還不對的你怎麼辨別跟委員報告目前我們現在跟港港局還有約束在推動就是在114年會全部在不管是20噸以下20噸以下的這個所有傳播要求要裝AIS\n那這個部門會在114年的時候完成?這個人是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛我提醒就是說有些科技比如說無人機我前兩天去中科院看瑞淵2當然那是軍規的你們不用買到那麼貴那麼好的\n他可以在空中俯視同時掃到所有的大小型船艦然後用AI去辨別他到底是明確的或不明的C4ISR要整合通報回來\n海巡署\n那個蔡局長現在我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對例件A啦或者是例件B我要請教是我們現在中共的聯合戰備警詢幾乎已經常態化了嘛那它常態化的狀態下在可以揭露的情形下有沒有新的樣態國人需要注意的\n對,就鄭委員所提到的聯合戰備警訊中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化大概平均下來每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警訊每週一次規模大概多大他大概在\n王定宇\n他有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡?是是你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦?\n他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號的?型號的部分都...我記得有三...戰級?一般?\n兩位先求我最後一個問題來問一下調查局長\n局長你邊走邊聽陳局長你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處的處長而且你查查共諜的績效非常好曾經在一年內有20件盡力而為這個是你的職責你不行要盡力而為你要做到那我現在請教的是現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪常常跟洗錢有關因為它要有金流所以我把握最後跟主席借一分鐘\n我們在洗錢防治上或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟那他們在定義的Financial Intelligence Unit也就是說金融的情資單位FIU我們國家定義就是你嘛就是大家局\n那我請教過去一年來我們有沒有異常的接受不管相關的友盟相關的團體或者是這個愛格盟等等異常的通報有有我接受異常通報有有在這個愛格盟聯盟裡面的會員彼此都會對於一些異常的金流會有一些情報的交換在過去這一年有那我舉個例子\n在特定的政治人物特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流目前沒有發現那化整為零的網路平台的donate你們能不能掌握這個部分比較不會是在艾格蒙聯盟通報艾格蒙聯盟是金融活動那個是另外一個洗錢的管道\n目前在金流的查處部分在有關這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難因為這個必須要這些網路的母公司在國際的這些公司的配合你們有沒有在處理\n我們現在正在努力因為我們要勾結他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來那一塊變黑洞啊另外賭盤的地下金流詐騙集團的地下金流你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎這個部分是其中一個部分而已賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流他們的流通的管道有很多像現在目前比較科技化的是會用虛擬貨幣\n蔡明彥率\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.711 --> 00:04.805\n謝謝麻煩請國安局海巡署有請蔡局長海巡署\n\n00:12.426 --> 00:29.965\n局長跟署長我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位會有很多事件我舉個例子在今年的6月份中國的快艇直闖淡水河當然淡水河對我們來講是我們未需作戰非常重要的愛口\n\n00:30.606 --> 00:52.342\n那邊有淡水大營然後進來之後可以到我們的水門就到總統府中樞的附近所以當時大家是很嚴肅看這個事情我們漢光演習不管幾號的演習沿著這條河我們都有重兵在部署那當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河劃分上海巡署我們這個應該是\n\n00:54.403 --> 01:12.811\n在權責上24海里以內就12海里以內應該是你們的權責吧是好那這裡面有一些精進啊什麼我要請教你但是我想到那個巫婆的糖果屋跟森林的麵包屑也就是說我們說看一個麵包屑它就是一個麵包屑\n\n01:14.051 --> 01:33.770\n但是麵包屑不要被野獸吃掉一個點一個點點一個點連起來可以把它導向我們要的地方這就是情報分析嘛所以我們把它拉開來看我現在排列的也許只是時間序列不見得是因果關係在2021年4月30號台中港西碼頭有一個軍規的橡皮艇\n\n01:34.792 --> 01:37.237\n當時在4月份呢共建航母這一個遼寧號跟五艘軍艦呢在台海周邊演習\n\n01:47.366 --> 02:05.973\n後來在2022年的6月11號臺東的富岡漁港那個時候有水上摩托車有橡皮艇等等也有類似這樣的事件當時是聯合警巡然後到今年的523聯合利建A\n\n02:07.298 --> 02:12.881\n首先我要請教海巡署跟國安局之前那幾件目前偵辦調查的狀況進度可不可以讓我們知道一下\n\n02:30.072 --> 02:56.902\n我先整體說明一下再請署長來做細節的補充就一旦發生到中國的偷渡客的案件之後一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦那再送請地方法院來進行偵處那以最後的那個淡水的那個案子一審已經宣判就是判刑8個月但是當事人在那個是指非法入境偷渡的部分我現在講的是國家安全情資情報的部分是這一些東西\n\n02:58.550 --> 03:19.213\n有沒有去研判他跟我們國家安全或者試探軍情有所關係有沒有因果關係我們在做相關的判斷因為當事人都會有些說辭我們必須要針對他的說辭來做一些釐清再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品以及傳播國安局現在整合所有情報機關你們目前研判起來\n\n03:20.874 --> 03:21.894\n有沒有那樣的跡象?\n\n03:44.683 --> 03:59.612\n所以這個我說國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來有沒有跟國安關係或者中國受益的因果關係有沒有這樣的跡象\n\n04:00.272 --> 04:17.902\n對這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在那海巡署你們目前像臺中港西碼頭那一個用軍規的橡皮艇啪一下跑到我們臺中港那臺中港在我們未需作戰在我們國土保衛戰裡面是一個重要的點嘛你們那個案子現在有沒有新的進度\n\n04:19.323 --> 04:46.521\n跟委員報告那這個案子我們現在研判起來他是用小型的快艇跟跟這一個這一個那個我知道因為報紙有寫嘛他小型快艇然後衝進來然後我們這個最後面的研判的分析的結果就是剛剛跟那個國安局蔡局長講的部分就是非常一致的就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們台灣可能\n\n04:49.544 --> 05:01.353\n我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議因為我們的偷渡這種非法入境的刑責很低它的代價很小\n\n05:03.089 --> 05:27.474\n反過來我們這邊要不然我們叫張榮鑫署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看你看要關多久關到誰知不知所以他的代價低試探的成本很低所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他的跡象的話我們應該援引更嚴的更重的法律來制裁他來遏止這個情形這是一個第二個我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為啊\n\n05:28.434 --> 05:55.725\n海上的船那麼多有的有AIS有的AIS發報又是錯誤的然後呢漁船有50艘100艘有一個快艇迫近進來你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生跟委員報告齁那針對這部分我們會跟國安隊相關單位做聯合情見證部分那另外一部分因為你聯合情見證什麼部分過去也有聯合難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎有有有有有有他跑進來啦有沒有什麼作為去防止\n\n05:56.105 --> 06:16.675\n我們現在的作為就是我們要提升我們雷達的徵收效能那從這幾個案例這個顯示我們現在現有的所有的雷達包括徵收裝備它對於小型目標掌握它是有它的盲點的部分雷達有盲點是那但是剛好我岳父是漁民啊近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎\n\n06:18.359 --> 06:40.287\n你看到了你怎麼辨別它又不是大家都有開AIS有的AIS還買MadeinChina打開來的顯示還不對的你怎麼辨別跟委員報告目前我們現在跟港港局還有約束在推動就是在114年會全部在不管是20噸以下20噸以下的這個所有傳播要求要裝AIS\n\n06:41.687 --> 06:57.434\n那這個部門會在114年的時候完成?這個人是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛我提醒就是說有些科技比如說無人機我前兩天去中科院看瑞淵2當然那是軍規的你們不用買到那麼貴那麼好的\n\n06:58.214 --> 07:11.356\n他可以在空中俯視同時掃到所有的大小型船艦然後用AI去辨別他到底是明確的或不明的C4ISR要整合通報回來\n\n07:12.728 --> 07:13.048\n海巡署\n\n07:40.987 --> 08:04.258\n那個蔡局長現在我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對例件A啦或者是例件B我要請教是我們現在中共的聯合戰備警詢幾乎已經常態化了嘛那它常態化的狀態下在可以揭露的情形下有沒有新的樣態國人需要注意的\n\n08:05.695 --> 08:14.321\n對,就鄭委員所提到的聯合戰備警訊中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化大概平均下來每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警訊每週一次規模大概多大他大概在\n\n08:23.999 --> 08:24.159\n王定宇\n\n08:47.686 --> 08:50.229\n他有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡?是是你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦?\n\n09:02.363 --> 09:03.904\n他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號的?型號的部分都...我記得有三...戰級?一般?\n\n09:26.616 --> 09:27.858\n兩位先求我最後一個問題來問一下調查局長\n\n09:48.903 --> 10:15.135\n局長你邊走邊聽陳局長你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處的處長而且你查查共諜的績效非常好曾經在一年內有20件盡力而為這個是你的職責你不行要盡力而為你要做到那我現在請教的是現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪常常跟洗錢有關因為它要有金流所以我把握最後跟主席借一分鐘\n\n10:16.275 --> 10:31.810\n我們在洗錢防治上或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟那他們在定義的FinancialIntelligenceUnit也就是說金融的情資單位FIU我們國家定義就是你嘛就是大家局\n\n10:34.011 --> 11:00.369\n那我請教過去一年來我們有沒有異常的接受不管相關的友盟相關的團體或者是這個愛格盟等等異常的通報有有我接受異常通報有有在這個愛格盟聯盟裡面的會員彼此都會對於一些異常的金流會有一些情報的交換在過去這一年有那我舉個例子\n\n11:01.806 --> 11:23.025\n在特定的政治人物特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流目前沒有發現那化整為零的網路平台的donate你們能不能掌握這個部分比較不會是在艾格蒙聯盟通報艾格蒙聯盟是金融活動那個是另外一個洗錢的管道\n\n11:23.806 --> 11:30.449\n目前在金流的查處部分在有關這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難因為這個必須要這些網路的母公司在國際的這些公司的配合你們有沒有在處理\n\n11:48.917 --> 12:14.691\n我們現在正在努力因為我們要勾結他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來那一塊變黑洞啊另外賭盤的地下金流詐騙集團的地下金流你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎這個部分是其中一個部分而已賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流他們的流通的管道有很多像現在目前比較科技化的是會用虛擬貨幣\n\n12:16.212 --> 12:16.853\n蔡明彥率\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.711,"end":4.805,"text":"謝謝麻煩請國安局海巡署有請蔡局長海巡署"},{"start":12.426,"end":29.965,"text":"局長跟署長我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位會有很多事件我舉個例子在今年的6月份中國的快艇直闖淡水河當然淡水河對我們來講是我們未需作戰非常重要的愛口"},{"start":30.606,"end":52.342,"text":"那邊有淡水大營然後進來之後可以到我們的水門就到總統府中樞的附近所以當時大家是很嚴肅看這個事情我們漢光演習不管幾號的演習沿著這條河我們都有重兵在部署那當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河劃分上海巡署我們這個應該是"},{"start":54.403,"end":72.811,"text":"在權責上24海里以內就12海里以內應該是你們的權責吧是好那這裡面有一些精進啊什麼我要請教你但是我想到那個巫婆的糖果屋跟森林的麵包屑也就是說我們說看一個麵包屑它就是一個麵包屑"},{"start":74.051,"end":93.77,"text":"但是麵包屑不要被野獸吃掉一個點一個點點一個點連起來可以把它導向我們要的地方這就是情報分析嘛所以我們把它拉開來看我現在排列的也許只是時間序列不見得是因果關係在2021年4月30號台中港西碼頭有一個軍規的橡皮艇"},{"start":94.792,"end":97.237,"text":"當時在4月份呢共建航母這一個遼寧號跟五艘軍艦呢在台海周邊演習"},{"start":107.366,"end":125.973,"text":"後來在2022年的6月11號臺東的富岡漁港那個時候有水上摩托車有橡皮艇等等也有類似這樣的事件當時是聯合警巡然後到今年的523聯合利建A"},{"start":127.298,"end":132.881,"text":"首先我要請教海巡署跟國安局之前那幾件目前偵辦調查的狀況進度可不可以讓我們知道一下"},{"start":150.072,"end":176.902,"text":"我先整體說明一下再請署長來做細節的補充就一旦發生到中國的偷渡客的案件之後一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦那再送請地方法院來進行偵處那以最後的那個淡水的那個案子一審已經宣判就是判刑8個月但是當事人在那個是指非法入境偷渡的部分我現在講的是國家安全情資情報的部分是這一些東西"},{"start":178.55,"end":199.213,"text":"有沒有去研判他跟我們國家安全或者試探軍情有所關係有沒有因果關係我們在做相關的判斷因為當事人都會有些說辭我們必須要針對他的說辭來做一些釐清再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品以及傳播國安局現在整合所有情報機關你們目前研判起來"},{"start":200.874,"end":201.894,"text":"有沒有那樣的跡象?"},{"start":224.683,"end":239.612,"text":"所以這個我說國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來有沒有跟國安關係或者中國受益的因果關係有沒有這樣的跡象"},{"start":240.272,"end":257.902,"text":"對這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在那海巡署你們目前像臺中港西碼頭那一個用軍規的橡皮艇啪一下跑到我們臺中港那臺中港在我們未需作戰在我們國土保衛戰裡面是一個重要的點嘛你們那個案子現在有沒有新的進度"},{"start":259.323,"end":286.521,"text":"跟委員報告那這個案子我們現在研判起來他是用小型的快艇跟跟這一個這一個那個我知道因為報紙有寫嘛他小型快艇然後衝進來然後我們這個最後面的研判的分析的結果就是剛剛跟那個國安局蔡局長講的部分就是非常一致的就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們台灣可能"},{"start":289.544,"end":301.353,"text":"我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議因為我們的偷渡這種非法入境的刑責很低它的代價很小"},{"start":303.089,"end":327.474,"text":"反過來我們這邊要不然我們叫張榮鑫署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看你看要關多久關到誰知不知所以他的代價低試探的成本很低所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他的跡象的話我們應該援引更嚴的更重的法律來制裁他來遏止這個情形這是一個第二個我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為啊"},{"start":328.434,"end":355.725,"text":"海上的船那麼多有的有AIS有的AIS發報又是錯誤的然後呢漁船有50艘100艘有一個快艇迫近進來你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生跟委員報告齁那針對這部分我們會跟國安隊相關單位做聯合情見證部分那另外一部分因為你聯合情見證什麼部分過去也有聯合難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎有有有有有有他跑進來啦有沒有什麼作為去防止"},{"start":356.105,"end":376.675,"text":"我們現在的作為就是我們要提升我們雷達的徵收效能那從這幾個案例這個顯示我們現在現有的所有的雷達包括徵收裝備它對於小型目標掌握它是有它的盲點的部分雷達有盲點是那但是剛好我岳父是漁民啊近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎"},{"start":378.359,"end":400.287,"text":"你看到了你怎麼辨別它又不是大家都有開AIS有的AIS還買Made 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China打開來的顯示還不對的你怎麼辨別跟委員報告目前我們現在跟港港局還有約束在推動就是在114年會全部在不管是20噸以下20噸以下的這個所有傳播要求要裝AIS"},{"start":401.687,"end":417.434,"text":"那這個部門會在114年的時候完成?這個人是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛我提醒就是說有些科技比如說無人機我前兩天去中科院看瑞淵2當然那是軍規的你們不用買到那麼貴那麼好的"},{"start":418.214,"end":431.356,"text":"他可以在空中俯視同時掃到所有的大小型船艦然後用AI去辨別他到底是明確的或不明的C4ISR要整合通報回來"},{"start":432.728,"end":433.048,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":460.987,"end":484.258,"text":"那個蔡局長現在我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對例件A啦或者是例件B我要請教是我們現在中共的聯合戰備警詢幾乎已經常態化了嘛那它常態化的狀態下在可以揭露的情形下有沒有新的樣態國人需要注意的"},{"start":485.695,"end":494.321,"text":"對,就鄭委員所提到的聯合戰備警訊中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化大概平均下來每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警訊每週一次規模大概多大他大概在"},{"start":503.999,"end":504.159,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":527.686,"end":530.229,"text":"他有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡?是是你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦?"},{"start":542.363,"end":543.904,"text":"他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號的?型號的部分都...我記得有三...戰級?一般?"},{"start":566.616,"end":567.858,"text":"兩位先求我最後一個問題來問一下調查局長"},{"start":588.903,"end":615.135,"text":"局長你邊走邊聽陳局長你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處的處長而且你查查共諜的績效非常好曾經在一年內有20件盡力而為這個是你的職責你不行要盡力而為你要做到那我現在請教的是現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪常常跟洗錢有關因為它要有金流所以我把握最後跟主席借一分鐘"},{"start":616.275,"end":631.81,"text":"我們在洗錢防治上或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟那他們在定義的Financial Intelligence Unit也就是說金融的情資單位FIU我們國家定義就是你嘛就是大家局"},{"start":634.011,"end":660.369,"text":"那我請教過去一年來我們有沒有異常的接受不管相關的友盟相關的團體或者是這個愛格盟等等異常的通報有有我接受異常通報有有在這個愛格盟聯盟裡面的會員彼此都會對於一些異常的金流會有一些情報的交換在過去這一年有那我舉個例子"},{"start":661.806,"end":683.025,"text":"在特定的政治人物特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流目前沒有發現那化整為零的網路平台的donate你們能不能掌握這個部分比較不會是在艾格蒙聯盟通報艾格蒙聯盟是金融活動那個是另外一個洗錢的管道"},{"start":683.806,"end":690.449,"text":"目前在金流的查處部分在有關這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難因為這個必須要這些網路的母公司在國際的這些公司的配合你們有沒有在處理"},{"start":708.917,"end":734.691,"text":"我們現在正在努力因為我們要勾結他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來那一塊變黑洞啊另外賭盤的地下金流詐騙集團的地下金流你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎這個部分是其中一個部分而已賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流他們的流通的管道有很多像現在目前比較科技化的是會用虛擬貨幣"},{"start":736.212,"end":736.853,"text":"蔡明彥率"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:03:41 - 10:16:16","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":155513,"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時3分）謝謝，麻煩請國安局、海巡署。"],["主席：有請蔡局長、海巡署。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長跟署長，我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位，會有很多事件，我舉個例子，在今年6月份，中國的快艇直闖淡水河，當然，淡水河對我們來講是我們衛戍作戰非常重要的隘口，那邊有淡水大營，進來之後可以到我們的水門，就到總統府中樞的附近，所以當時大家是很嚴肅在看這個事情。我們的漢光演習，不管幾號的演習，沿著這條河都有重兵在部署。當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河，在劃分上，海巡署，在權責上，24浬以內、12浬以內應該是你們的權責嘛！"],["張署長忠龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：這裡面有一些精進什麼的我要請教你，但是我想到那個巫婆的糖果屋跟森林的麵包屑，也就是說，我們有時候看一個麵包屑，它就是一個麵包屑，但是如果麵包屑不要被野獸吃掉，一個點一個點的連起來，可以把它導向我們要的地方，這就是情報分析嘛！所以我們把它拉開來看，我現在排列的也許只是時間序列，不見得是因果關係。","2021年4月30號臺中港西碼頭有一個軍規橡皮艇上來了，這個案子到現在是什麼情形，待會請你一併回答，當時在4月分，共艦航母遼寧號跟5艘軍艦在臺海周邊演習。後來在2022年6月11號的臺東富岡漁港，那個時候有水上摩托車、橡皮艇等等，也有類似這樣的事件，當時是聯合警巡。然後到今年5月23號聯合利劍A的時候，淡水碼頭有小型快艇進來，就是我剛才說的那個事件。然後這一次聯合利劍B的時候，在金門猛虎嶼有偷渡客、橡皮艇。第一個，我要請教海巡署跟國安局的是，之前那幾件到目前偵辦調查的狀況及進度可不可以讓我們知道一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：我先整體說明一下，再請署長來做細節的補充。一旦發生中國偷渡客的案件之後，一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦，再送請地方法院來進行偵處，剛剛委員提到的淡水的那個案子，一審已經宣判，就是判刑8個月，但是當事人在上訴……"],["王委員定宇：那個是指非法入境、偷渡的部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我現在講的是國家安全情資、情報的部分，對於這一些東西，有沒有去研判它跟我們國家安全或者刺探軍情有所關係？有沒有因果關係？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們在做相關的判斷，因為當事人都會有些說詞，我們必須要針對他的說詞來做一些釐清，再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品，以及船舶……"],["王委員定宇：國安局現在整合所有情報機關，你們目前研判起來有沒有那樣的跡象？"],["蔡局長明彥：每個個案的狀況都不太一樣，但是我們發現的跡象是，他們一般都是要來這邊投奔自由，都說他們在對岸有受到相關的迫害，我們覺得那個說詞似乎都……"],["王委員定宇：版本很一致？像個模板嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對、對，這大概是我們注意到的。"],["王委員定宇：所以他們有一個像模板的說詞，坦白講，在這個時代，他們買個機票飛過來，生命的風險更低，成功機率更高，所以國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來，有沒有跟國安關係，或者中國授意的因果關係？有沒有這樣的跡象？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在。"],["王委員定宇：海巡署，像臺中港西碼頭的那一個個案，用軍規橡皮艇「啪」的一下跑到我們臺中港，臺中港在我們衛戍作戰、在我們國土保衛戰裡面，是一個重要的點，對於那個案子，你們現在有沒有新的進度？"],["張署長忠龍：跟委員報告，這個案子我們現在研判起來，他是用小型的快艇跟這個……"],["王委員定宇：那個我知道啦，因為報紙有寫他是用小型快艇。"],["張署長忠龍：是，然後衝進來，我們後面的研判分析結果跟剛剛國安局蔡局長講的部分非常一致，就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們臺灣可能讓中共艦船進來……"],["王委員定宇：我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議，因為我們對於偷渡這種非法入境的刑責很低，他的代價很小，反過來我們這邊，要不然我們叫張榮興署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看，你看要被關多久，可能會被關到長「蝨母」！因為他的代價低，試探的成本很低，所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他跡象的話，我們應該援引更嚴的、更重的法律來制裁他，以遏止這個情形，這是一個。","第二個，我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為？海上的船那麼多，有的有AIS，有的AIS發報又是錯誤的，然後漁船有50艘、100艘，其中有一個快艇破境進來，你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生？"],["張署長忠龍：跟委員報告，針對這個部分，我們會跟國安相關單位做聯合情監偵部分，另外的部分，因為……"],["王委員定宇：你聯合情監偵什麼部分？過去也有聯合啊，難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎？"],["張署長忠龍：有、有、有。"],["王委員定宇：有、有、有，但他跑進來了啊，有沒有什麼作為去防止這個事情？"],["張署長忠龍：我們現在的作為就是要提升我們雷達的偵搜效能，從這幾個案例顯示我們現有的所有雷達，包括偵搜裝備，對於小型目標的掌握是有盲點的部分。"],["王委員定宇：好，雷達有盲點，剛好我岳父是漁民，近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎？你看到了要怎麼辨別？又不是大家都有開AIS，有的AIS還買Made in China的，打開來的顯示還不對，你怎麼辨別？"],["張署長忠龍：跟委員報告，目前我們跟航港局還有漁業署在推動，114年會全部，就是對20噸以下的所有船舶也要求要裝AIS，這個部分會在114年的時候完成。"],["王委員定宇：不是，這個部分你是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛！"],["張署長忠龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：我要提醒的就是說，有些科技，比方說無人機，我前兩天去中科院看銳鳶二，當然那是軍規的，你不用買到那麼貴那麼好的，它可以在空中俯視，同時掃到所有的大小型船艦，然後用AI去辨別它到底是明確的或不明的，C4ISR要整合，通報回來，不明的怎麼去辨別，然後歸海巡署處理、歸軍方處理還是歸誰處理，這個應該有一套整合的系統，否則海軍、海巡就會產生有一個地帶空在那邊，好不好？我建議海巡署，原來的作為我不是說不好，但明顯已經有漏洞了，你們的精進作為可能要能夠說服我們這個預算花下去之後能夠改善。海巡署先請回。","蔡局長，我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對利劍A或者是利劍B，我要請教的是，現在中共的聯合戰備警巡幾乎已經常態化了，在它常態化的狀態下，在可以揭露的情形下，有沒有新的樣態是國人需要注意的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，正如委員所提到的，聯合戰備警巡，中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化，大概平均下來，每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警巡，除了有這樣的……"],["王委員定宇：每週一次？"],["蔡局長明彥：每週一次定期化的……"],["王委員定宇：那個規模大概多大？"],["蔡局長明彥：在戰轟機的部分，大概都有十幾架的戰轟機，在聯合戰備警巡啟動之後，會越過相關的海峽中線或迫近到我們的西南空域。"],["王委員定宇：另外，他們的船艦都會接近在24浬的區域？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，一般大概都會有幾艘的船艦到我們24浬周邊的水域來活動。"],["王委員定宇：還有沒有什麼新的樣態？"],["蔡局長明彥：除了一般的戰轟機及相關驅護艦的活動以外，也注意到有類似登陸艦開始參與相關的戰備警巡……"],["王委員定宇：它有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦？"],["蔡局長明彥：它的登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡大概有兩個目的，一個目的就是熟悉航渡的過程，第二部分當然就是希望能夠更熟悉整個臺海的作業環境，這大概是另外一個特點。"],["王委員定宇：他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號？"],["蔡局長明彥：型號的部分，我記得有……"],["郭主任治國：……一般……"],["王委員定宇：一般的嘛。"],["郭主任治國：對，一般……"],["王委員定宇：不會到075那麼大？"],["郭主任治國：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，小的、小的，噸位是小型的。另外還有要注意的就是，它的聯合戰備警巡已經有一些夜間的聯合戰備警巡這樣的活動開始出現。"],["王委員定宇：好，兩位先請回。我最後一個問題來問一下調查局局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：局長，你邊走邊聽啦，陳局長，你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處處長？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：而且你查察共諜的績效非常好，曾經在一年內有20件。"],["陳局長白立：盡力而為、盡力。"],["王委員定宇：這是你的職責。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：你不只要盡力而為，你要做到。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：我現在要請教的是，現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪，常常跟洗錢有關，因為他要有金流，我最後跟主席借1分鐘。我們在洗錢防制上，或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟，他們在定義的Financial Intelligence Unit，也就是說金融的情資單位、情報單位……"],["陳局長白立：FIU。"],["王委員定宇：FIU，我們國家定義就是你嘛。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：就是調查局。"],["陳局長白立：是，洗錢防制處。"],["王委員定宇：對。那我請教，過去一年來，我們有沒有接受不管相關的友盟、相關的團體，或者是艾格蒙等等異常的通報？"],["陳局長白立：有。"],["王委員定宇：有接受異常通報？"],["陳局長白立：有。"],["王委員定宇：不尋常的金融活動？"],["陳局長白立：在這個艾格蒙聯盟裡面的會員，彼此都會對於一些異常的金流有一些情報的交換。"],["王委員定宇：在過去這一年有？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：那我舉個例子，在特定的政治人物、特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流？"],["陳局長白立：目前沒有、目前沒有發現。"],["王委員定宇：目前沒有發現？"],["陳局長白立：目前沒有發現。"],["王委員定宇：那化整為零的網路平臺的斗內，你們能不能掌握？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分比較不會是在艾格蒙聯盟通報的情資。"],["王委員定宇：那個不是，艾格蒙聯盟是金融活動。"],["陳局長白立：那個是另外一個洗錢的管道。"],["王委員定宇：現在新的網路媒體平臺，它累積的金額可能百萬、千萬，過去我們法律在這一塊是可以防制的，可是他用斗內的方式化整為零，你們怎麼處理？"],["陳局長白立：目前在金流的查處部分，這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難，因為這個必須要這些網路的這些母公司、在國際的這些公司的配合。"],["王委員定宇：那你們有沒有在處理？"],["陳局長白立：我們現在正在努力跟這些……"],["王委員定宇：因為我們要勾稽他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來嘛。"],["陳局長白立：對、對、對。"],["王委員定宇：可是那一塊變黑洞啊！"],["陳局長白立：對、對、對。"],["王委員定宇：另外，賭盤的地下金流、詐騙集團的地下金流，你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這是其中一個部分而已，賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流，他們的流通管道有很多，像目前比較科技化的會用虛擬貨幣的方式。"],["王委員定宇：所以你剛才說接收到不管是艾格蒙或其他通報的異常的金融活動，指的是這一塊嘛。"],["陳局長白立：是、是、是。"],["王委員定宇：是虛擬貨幣？"],["陳局長白立：是、是。"],["王委員定宇：虛擬貨幣的異常？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：那你們有進一步去追查嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們會去追、我們會去追。"],["王委員定宇：所以它是在偵辦中的案子？"],["陳局長白立：是、是、是。"],["王委員定宇：OK，我先問到這邊，謝謝。"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：好，謝謝，我們接下來進行詢答的委員沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}}